Liverpool Shooting

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-62644411

Police have released details of how this unfolded. It's horrendous that this young girl has been murdered in her own home.

Surely, this ****bag will be turned in.

[cabbageandribs1875]

just reading about it a few mins back, that woman will have nightmares for the rest of her life, if only she hadn't opened her front door etc, and that poor little kid, hope they find the ****

[Stairway 2 7]

Reminds me of little boy blue, another innocent life lost

[He's here!]

Struggling to take this in. When I saw the headline I thought it was likely to be a domestic incident (not that that would have made it any better) but this is too horrendous for words.

[Billy Whizz]

It’s just another terrible incident from the Liverpool area
If I’m reading this right, he’s shot the mum and the girl, shot another man who was in the house

Drove the man away in a stolen car, and now he’s in hospital with gun shot wounds

[Ozyhibby]

While the ‘war on drugs’ continues then this sort of thing won’t stop happening.


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[Paul1642]

While the ‘war on drugs’ continues then this sort of thing won’t stop happening.


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I’m not sure I get the relation. An absolutely horrendous incident which makes me sick just reading about but I don’t see how government drug policy can be blamed.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m not sure I get the relation. An absolutely horrendous incident which makes me sick just reading about but I don’t see how government drug policy can be blamed.

Wait until they catch the gun man and I am 99.9% sure you will find both he and the fella he was trying to shoot were involved in the drug trade.
Unless you think they were arguing over last nights Liverpool match?


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[Paul1642]

Wait until they catch the gun man and I am 99.9% sure you will find both he and the fella he was trying to shoot were involved in the drug trade.
Unless you think they were arguing over last nights Liverpool match?


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I completely agree that drugs / organised crime are almost certain to be a factor.

[makaveli1875]

While the ‘war on drugs’ continues then this sort of thing won’t stop happening.


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You think all the drug dealers and gangsters are going to go and get jobs in asda and Toss away their guns if drugs are legalized ?

[hibsbollah]

Drugs are going to become more in demand and prevalent to dull the pain of an increasingly desperate human existence. It’s going to be one of the few growth sectors over the next few years, whether legal or illicit. So there’s a lot of people in a pure state of true capitalism, killing 9 year old girls in their way, desperate to control supply.

Just in the interest of cheering us all up.

[Ozyhibby]

You think all the drug dealers and gangsters are going to go and get jobs in asda and Toss away their guns if drugs are legalized ?

What are they going to be fighting over when drug user no longer have to buy drugs from them?


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[Jones28]

That poor wee girl. I don’t advocate death sentences at all but I’d have no problem if the perpetrators were found cut in to wee bits.

[cammy1969]

It’s just another terrible incident from the Liverpool area
If I’m reading this right, he’s shot the mum and the girl, shot another man who was in the house

Drove the man away in a stolen car, and now he’s in hospital with gun shot wounds

I could be wrong billy, but the way I read it is Mum hears shots out side opens door and a man runs followed by gun man who fires shots at everyone in house then flees then friends of shot man’s takes shot man away and leaves mum and child


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[Billy Whizz]

I could be wrong billy, but the way I read it is Mum hears shots out side opens door and a man runs followed by gun man who fires shots at everyone in house then flees then friends of shot man’s takes shot man away and leaves mum and child


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Think you’re right. So the man in hospital was probably the target, maybe the key to finding the killer

[He's here!]

While the ‘war on drugs’ continues then this sort of thing won’t stop happening.


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Bizarre first reaction.

[cabbageandribs1875]

yesterday was the 15th anniversary of the killing of 11 year old Rhys Jones in Croxteth

[cammy1969]

Think you’re right. So the man in hospital was probably the target, maybe the key to finding the killer

Yeah 35 year old man seems to have been the target. Really is heartbreaking for the family of the little girl.


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[SChibs]

While the ‘war on drugs’ continues then this sort of thing won’t stop happening.


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Not many agreeing with you but you are 100% right. The ammount of harm the organised gangs cause really outweighs the harm drugs actually do. The war on drugs will never be one so just legalise and regulate

[He's here!]

Not many agreeing with you but you are 100% right. The ammount of harm the organised gangs cause really outweighs the harm drugs actually do. The war on drugs will never be one so just legalise and regulate

The inhumanity of the incident, not only on the part of killer but from his intended victim who stepped past the stricken child and her screaming mother when leaving the house - and also his accomplice who drove him to hospital with zero consideration for perhaps taking the child for medical assistance - is hard to take in. That's the take from this awful story and that trio of ****bags are solely to blame. Baffles me that anyone would set that aside in order to try and make his about politics.

[Ozyhibby]

The inhumanity of the incident, not only on the part of killer but from his intended victim who stepped past the stricken child and her screaming mother when leaving the house - and also his accomplice who drove him to hospital with zero consideration for perhaps taking the child for medical assistance - is hard to take in. That's the take from this awful story and that trio of ****bags are solely to blame. Baffles me that anyone would set that aside in order to try and make his about politics.

There is a lot worse than that committed by drug gangs globally everyday. To point out that if we want to stop these happening we maybe should consider a different approach is not setting aside anything. It’s not even a political point as there are no parties getting close to dealing with this.
Still, you seem keen to make a point about something so fair play.


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[Scouse Hibee]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!

[phoenixfire]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!

Really sorry to hear this news my thoughts and prayers to their family's . Hope your ok too mate !

[Scouse Hibee]

Really sorry to hear this news my thoughts and prayers to their family's . Hope your ok too mate !

Yes mate, I should have said it’s my old area, I live in Edinburgh now but have many friends and relatives in the area I mentioned.

[Jones28]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!

It sounds horrendous Scouse, shelagh foggerty covered it on the radio and you could hear it in her voice.

Is there any indication what’s behind all this?

[Stairway 2 7]

It sounds horrendous Scouse, shelagh foggerty covered it on the radio and you could hear it in her voice.

Is there any indication what’s behind all this?

Drug gangs. Most of uk dealing originates in the north West particularly coke and heroin. The Richardsons ect in Edinburgh all have links to the big Liverpool gangs.

It's just like America that when a poor bairn gets caught in the crossfire it is in the news, but it's been blighting Liverpool for years. The high ups are sheltered so if underlings get killed or arrested they are replaced. The man that was shot won't give up the shooter in most probability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/23/its-crazy-and-it-needs-to-stop-shock-and-anger-in-liverpool-after-week-of-violence

[Scorrie]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!

Been very grim here this week and the killing of the wee lassie was just horrendous. Looks like a gangland hit gone very wrong according to the media. Can’t help but feel nervous when my 16 year old son was out playing with his mates last night. 15 years to the day after the shooting of Rhys Jones as well. Just too much of this going on here at the moment

[Ozyhibby]

Drug gangs. Most of uk dealing originates in the north West particularly coke and heroin. The Richardsons ect in Edinburgh all have links to the big Liverpool gangs.

It's just like America that when a poor bairn gets caught in the crossfire it is in the news, but it's been blighting Liverpool for years. The high ups are sheltered so if underlings get killed or arrested they are replaced. The man that was shot won't give up the shooter in most probability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/23/its-crazy-and-it-needs-to-stop-shock-and-anger-in-liverpool-after-week-of-violence

Almost all the serious violence in this country is linked to the drug trade. Without it, there would be little incentive to ever own a gun.
Given that we have totally failed to prevent drug availability through prohibition (probably the only commodity in the UK where prices rarely rise), it has to be time to look at state supply and harm reduction methods. Little kids being shot in their own home is surely a price we don’t want to keep paying for a policy that is having zero affect and isn’t even supported by the majority of the population anymore anyway?


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[Scouse Hibee]

It sounds horrendous Scouse, shelagh foggerty covered it on the radio and you could hear it in her voice.

Is there any indication what’s behind all this?

Gangland/ drugs/ turf war most likely I would summise. Far to easy for these types to get hold of firearms and they have absolutely no respect for life at all.

[Scouse Hibee]

Been very grim here this week and the killing of the wee lassie was just horrendous. Looks like a gangland hit gone very wrong according to the media. Can’t help but feel nervous when my 16 year old son was out playing with his mates last night. 15 years to the day after the shooting of Rhys Jones as well. Just too much of this going on here at the moment

I feel for you mate, innocent folk with no connection what so ever getting caught up in mindless violence is frightening. I heard the cops appealing for the criminals to examine their conscience. They don’t have any conscience as clearly proved when they indiscriminately spray bullets about.
15 years since Rhys Jones and nothing has changed.

[Bostonhibby]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!Very very sad, lots of experience of working with folk from the area and still have a friend or two, there's many,many more good folk than bad, liverpool needs to make it as hard as possible for these monsters to exist in their city.

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[Ozyhibby]

Very very sad, lots of experience of working with folk from the area and still have a friend or two, there's many,many more good folk than bad, liverpool needs to make it as hard as possible for these monsters to exist in their city.

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All Liverpool can do within the current framework is escalate. They can flood the city with police but it won’t stop the flow of drugs. It will either just push it somewhere else or the drug gangs will fight harder for their territory. Besides, they don’t have the resources to really flood the city with police.
Over the next couple of weeks there will be warm words from politicians and talk about crackdowns etc but nothing will actually change. They’ll probably get an arrest out of it and there will be a TV movie etc and people will say how terrible it all is but real change? No chance of that. And then it will happen again in a few years.


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[Billy Whizz]

Man who was shot, arrested in hospital for breaking the terms of his licence
He’ll know who was after him, but will he talk?

[Ozyhibby]

Man who was shot, arrested in hospital for breaking the terms of his licence
He’ll know who was after him, but will he talk?

I would think it’s unlikely. The consequences for his family would be considerable.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Arrests cause instability. If you put a couple of big fish in jail then it’s likely that the process of filling those positions will be decided with some level of violence.


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Darwin awards? 🤣

[Bostonhibby]

All Liverpool can do within the current framework is escalate. They can flood the city with police but it won’t stop the flow of drugs. It will either just push it somewhere else or the drug gangs will fight harder for their territory. Besides, they don’t have the resources to really flood the city with police.
Over the next couple of weeks there will be warm words from politicians and talk about crackdowns etc but nothing will actually change. They’ll probably get an arrest out of it and there will be a TV movie etc and people will say how terrible it all is but real change? No chance of that. And then it will happen again in a few years.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSadly, approaching it dispassionately, I agree with what you say. What a country we live in.

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[Scouse Hibee]

28 year old innocent girl shot and killed in her own home the day before, it happened in the Old Swan area which is my neck of the woods. Horrendous just now in Liverpool, 50 year old granny stabbed and killed outside a Kirkby pub trying to break up a fight and another teenage lad shot and killed days before that!

The man charged with the murder of the woman stabbed whilst trying to break up a fight is her son!

[DaveF]

Killer still at large and the Liverpool wall of silence in full effect. Reward now up to £200k.

[Crunchie]

Bizarre first reaction.
Bizarre beyond words.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-65088182

Relieved to see the b****** who did this found guilty of murder. Those who came forward as witnesses, in particular his ex-partner, were under horrendous pressure and even when the guilty verdict was read out his friends and family in the gallery were shouting abuse and shouting 'appeal it'.

[He's here!]

Liverpool gun murders: 'Sadly, it's probably going to happen again' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-65036979)

[Jones28]

Glad the ******* has been caught, but is this further evidence that the war on drugs is too costly and too difficult a fight?

[Ozyhibby]

Glad the ******* has been caught, but is this further evidence that the war on drugs is too costly and too difficult a fight?

We didn’t need this to know that. The ‘war on drugs’ is complete insanity. There is absolutely zero benefit to it for massive cost.


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[archie]

We didn’t need this to know that. The ‘war on drugs’ is complete insanity. There is absolutely zero benefit to it for massive cost.


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There is no benefit in restricting the supply of extremely harmful drugs? Really?

[Ozyhibby]

There is no benefit in restricting the supply of extremely harmful drugs? Really?

Do you think we have restricted supply?


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[archie]

Do you think we have restricted supply?


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Yes.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes.

Fair enough if you believe that. [emoji106]


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[archie]

Fair enough if you believe that. [emoji106]


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Every drugs bust is restricting supply.

[Scouse Hibee]

Every drugs bust is restricting supply.

Sadly more like delaying supply than restricting it.

[archie]

Sadly more like delaying supply than restricting it.

Well by definition a drugs bust restricts supply. But you are right, the incentive is there to bring in more. So I guess the question is do we even try to stop it or, as Ozyhibby implies, legalise all drugs?

[Mon Dieu4]

Every drugs bust is restricting supply.

The big time players factor in that some will get grabbed, they send multiple shipments knowing at least one could get seized, it's always a good soundbite though

[Ozyhibby]

Well by definition a drugs bust restricts supply. But you are right, the incentive is there to bring in more. So I guess the question is do we even try to stop it or, as Ozyhibby implies, legalise all drugs?

You can legalise drugs where they are only sold by the state and still sell at a higher price than they sell on the illegal market.
If we are restricting supply then it’s not having a lot of effect on the price people pay.


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[DH1875]

The big time players factor in that some will get grabbed, they send multiple shipments knowing at least one could get seized, it's always a good soundbite though

They actually send shipments out to get seized in the hope others will pass through. Send 5 shipments out and if only one is seized, the money from the other 4 more than covers it.
Same with drug mules. Set the one carrying 1kilo up to get caught while the one carrying 5kilo gets through.

[Kato]

Every drugs bust is restricting supply.Nope. Merely redirecting it.

Maybe give an example of the prohibition of drugs working?

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[archie]

Nope. Merely redirecting it.

Maybe give an example of the prohibition of drugs working?

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkHow is it redirecting it? You also need to define what you mean by prohibition working? Clearly illegal drugs are available. But they are harder to get than if they were available to buy. And the assumption that not prohibiting drugs means there are no social problems is absolutely fanciful. I take it from the tone of your reply that you would make all drugs legal?

[CropleyWasGod]

How is it redirecting it? You also need to define what you mean by prohibition working? Clearly illegal drugs are available. But they are harder to get than if they were available to buy. And the assumption that not prohibiting drugs means there are no social problems is absolutely fanciful. I take it from the tone of your reply that you would make all drugs legal?

Portugal's experience over the last 20 years might address some of your concerns.

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

[archie]

Portugal's experience over the last 20 years might address some of your concerns.

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

To a point. I had seen that. This is also interesting https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-021-00394-7

[Ozyhibby]

Portugal's experience over the last 20 years might address some of your concerns.

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

This is the sort of the the SG should be doing just now. Campaign hard to get drug policy devolved. It is a reasonable request that the majority of the population could agree with. Yes, we want independence but we also want to make peoples lives better now.
Portugal don’t go far enough for me but it’s a bloody good stepping stone.


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[archie]

This is the sort of the the SG should be doing just now. Campaign hard to get drug policy devolved. It is a reasonable request that the majority of the population could agree with. Yes, we want independence but we also want to make peoples lives better now.
Portugal don’t go far enough for me but it’s a bloody good stepping stone.


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What is it you want?

[Ozyhibby]

What is it you want?

I want the supply of drugs taken away from the criminal gangs. I want the govt to be able to prescribe drugs for addicts. It’s the criminality that surrounds the supply of these drugs that blights some neighbourhoods.
Portugals model, which I like, doesn’t do this.


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[archie]

So there appear to be a number of views on this.

There's my view, which is that it is legitimate for the state to proscribe certain drugs on the basis of their harm. I accept that this ineviatably leads to a black market and related crime.

There's the Portuguise model put forward by Cropley that decriminalises use, but not supply. The criminalisation element is replased by a more social work style intervention.

Ozyhibby appears to support complete decriminalisation, with the state providing drugs on prescription for those who want them.

Before we dive in, have I got this right?

[Ozyhibby]

So there appear to be a number of views on this.

There's my view, which is that it is legitimate for the state to proscribe certain drugs on the basis of their harm. I accept that this ineviatably leads to a black market and related crime.

There's the Portuguise model put forward by Cropley that decriminalises use, but not supply. The criminalisation element is replased by a more social work style intervention.

Ozyhibby appears to support complete decriminalisation, with the state providing drugs on prescription for those who want them.

Before we dive in, have I got this right?

Doesn’t misrepresent me although I would say ‘need’ rather than ‘want’.


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[CropleyWasGod]

So there appear to be a number of views on this.

There's my view, which is that it is legitimate for the state to proscribe certain drugs on the basis of their harm. I accept that this ineviatably leads to a black market and related crime.

There's the Portuguise model put forward by Cropley that decriminalises use, but not supply. The criminalisation element is replased by a more social work style intervention.

Ozyhibby appears to support complete decriminalisation, with the state providing drugs on prescription for those who want them.

Before we dive in, have I got this right?

I am with Ozy on decrim. I put forward the Portuguese model as an example of an alternative to the current "war", which is IMO unwinnable. At the very least, IMO there should be a shift from treating drug-use as a criminal issue to that of treating it as a health issue; harm reduction is the key.

More than anything, though, in the short term I want a grown-up debate without the emotive headlines. It's little wonder that so few politicians are prepared to put their heads above the parapet when their careers might be at risk from knee-jerk reactions (cf David Nutt).

[Jones28]

My own view is that cannabis should be available as freely as alcohol is, much like it is in Canada.

When it comes to drugs like cocaine and MDMA I'm not so sure.

[Ozyhibby]

My own view is that cannabis should be available as freely as alcohol is, much like it is in Canada.

When it comes to drugs like cocaine and MDMA I'm not so sure.

I would not go as far as that. I would use a state monopoly to sell drugs like cannabis. I don’t think there should be a commercial incentive to sell more of it. I just want it out the hands of the crime gangs.


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[Santa Cruz]

Drug law reform cases studies looks at approaches from 5 different countries.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/international-approaches-drug-law-reform/

[CropleyWasGod]

My own view is that cannabis should be available as freely as alcohol is, much like it is in Canada.

When it comes to drugs like cocaine and MDMA I'm not so sure.

As far as MDMA goes, this is where we overlap with mental health treatment (see also the Depression thread, and the Plant Medicine thread). Before the moral panic of the 60's, MDMA was recognised as an appropriate treatment for issues such as PTSD. That opinion is now returning.

The current (profit-based) situation, though, encourages pure MDMA (and cocaine) to be adulterated with the chemicals that do kill you.

[Stairway 2 7]

Germany, Canada, France and the US are all on the path to decriminalisation of hash. Seems to be only tories or new lab tories that still want this pathetic war on drugs attitude to it. Anyone in Britain that wants it can get it in 20 minutes. The profits go straight to dealers. Both the two idiots in Liverpool were hash dealers.

Cannabis use in Canada is pretty stable after decriminalisation. The difference is gangsters have lost their millions of profits and its now taxed as are the jobs in the industry

[archie]

Germany, Canada, France and the US are all on the path to decriminalisation of hash. Seems to be only tories or new lab tories that still want this pathetic war on drugs attitude to it. Anyone in Britain that wants it can get it in 20 minutes. The profits go straight to dealers. Both the two idiots in Liverpool were hash dealers.

Cannabis use in Canada is pretty stable after decriminalisation. The difference is gangsters have lost their millions of profits and its now taxed as are the jobs in the industry

My recent experience in NW US Canada has shaped some of my thinking and maybe toughened it up a bit. Weed was being smoked everywhere - parks, streets etc. TBH I found it a bit oppressive. But Hastings Street in Vancouver was one of the most desperate sites of human degredation I have ever seen. It is essentially a large tented city over many blocks. Open drug use and some very limited services: paramedics and some gazebos with anti overdose medicine. I was really surprised to see it in Canada as opposed to the States, as I assumed that there would be better social infrastructure. It was filthy, open hard drug use, **** everywhere (literally) and it was destroying local businesses. Museums in Chinatown had to have security on the door. TBH I found it profountly shocking. I would say worse than San Francisco, and that's saying something.

[neil7908]

I would not go as far as that. I would use a state monopoly to sell drugs like cannabis. I don’t think there should be a commercial incentive to sell more of it. I just want it out the hands of the crime gangs.


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I largely agree with you on this BTW but I know from speaking to friends in California, that many still use their old dealers to buy cannabis. The government stuff is more expensive and consumers don't want to pay more for the same thing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20230329-california-s-cannabis-black-market-thrives-despite-legalization

I don't think the status quo is sustainable but there are still big challenges with the alternatives.

[archie]

Doesn’t misrepresent me although I would say ‘need’ rather than ‘want’.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think it's very difficult to apply. TBH I think with your approach you have to go all the way. A physiological addiction like heroin or crack is easily diagnosed. But cocaine or MDMA?

[archie]

I largely agree with you on this BTW but I know from speaking to friends in California, that many still use their old dealers to buy cannabis. The government stuff is more expensive and consumers don't want to pay more for the same thing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20230329-california-s-cannabis-black-market-thrives-despite-legalization

I don't think the status quo is sustainable but there are still big challenges with the alternatives.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/weed-is-legal-in-new-york-but-the-illegal-market-is-still-booming-heres-why

[CropleyWasGod]

I largely agree with you on this BTW but I know from speaking to friends in California, that many still use their old dealers to buy cannabis. The government stuff is more expensive and consumers don't want to pay more for the same thing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20230329-california-s-cannabis-black-market-thrives-despite-legalization

I don't think the status quo is sustainable but there are still big challenges with the alternatives.

My Canadian friends have a different experience. It's cheaper for them now.

It's early days for such a cultural shift. It will be a while (maybe a generation) before the market and society settles down.

[Ozyhibby]

I largely agree with you on this BTW but I know from speaking to friends in California, that many still use their old dealers to buy cannabis. The government stuff is more expensive and consumers don't want to pay more for the same thing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/live-news/20230329-california-s-cannabis-black-market-thrives-despite-legalization

I don't think the status quo is sustainable but there are still big challenges with the alternatives.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/weed-is-legal-in-new-york-but-the-illegal-market-is-still-booming-heres-why

Looks like a very solvable issue? The govt appears to be charging too much?
The reality here would be a lot different I think?


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[Berwickhibby]

On a practical note, I have never had to roll about the street or drag off a violent Cannabis smoker unlike drunks full of alcohol.

[Paul1642]

I want the supply of drugs taken away from the criminal gangs. I want the govt to be able to prescribe drugs for addicts. It’s the criminality that surrounds the supply of these drugs that blights some neighbourhoods.
Portugals model, which I like, doesn’t do this.


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We already prescribe methadone to heroin addicts.

Cannabis users constantly tell us it’s not addictive (yet many choose to use it daily with no end in sight).

Cocaine is certainly addictive however I don’t know the stats around user ratio to addiction info.

I’m not going to focus my argument on cannabis as even though I believe it’s harmful the the user it probably has minimal effect on wider society, however do you suggest we allow the lads to stop by the shop on the way to a night in town to buy a few grams of cocaine?

[Jakhog1]

Personally don't see the problem with cannabis, smoked it for way over twenty years, in that time I have kept a stable decent job in finance for that twenty year period, been in the same happy loving relationship and getting married, have raised polite, kind and amazing children, passed my driving test and bought a house outright with no mortgage, travelled to over 30 countries and lived a very fulfilling life, always try to live my life an honest and decent way and to show respect and kindness, don't think I would have done any of that if I was an alcoholic and I was a very heavy user throughout. Never once went onto anything harder.

[DH1875]

Is MDMA not pretty safe if you take the real stuff and not the stuff we get here in the UK which is cut with all sorts of crap. With that, if it were legal it wouldn't be as dangerous as wouldn't be filled with the dangerous crap. I remember being in Holland years ago and shops had self testing kits where you could test your E in the shop to make sure it was safe. Even something like that would be better than what we currently have, which is nothing.

[Dalianwanda]

There is no benefit in restricting the supply of extremely harmful drugs? Really?

are you saying the current approach to drug supply/use is working? If you are, how’s it working? If your not, what’s your proposed way forward?

[archie]

are you saying the current approach to drug supply/use is working? If you are, how’s it working? If your not, what’s your proposed way forward?

That's quite a jump. Clearly the current approach isn't working. But the drift here appears to be complete liberalisation of drugs. I think that's highly dangerous and would have real implications for society. Because it's difficult to enforce a law isn't a reason not to have it.

[Dalianwanda]

That's quite a jump. Clearly the current approach isn't working. But the drift here appears to be complete liberalisation of drugs. I think that's highly dangerous and would have real implications for society. Because it's difficult to enforce a law isn't a reason not to have it.

Not really. The generalisation and grouping together of drugs such as cocaine & mdma certainly is a jump.

Legislate production & supply & use money raised to educate and support and eradicate addiction. Do i trust the government to do that? Probably not but they are more transparent and accountable than current suppliers.

[archie]

Not really. The generalisation and grouping together of drugs such as cocaine & mdma certainly is a jump.

Legislate production & supply & use money raised to educate and support and eradicate addiction. Do i trust the government to do that? Probably not but they are more transparent and accountable than current suppliers.
So I guess the question is where do you draw the line? If the argument is that prohibition leads to black markets then that holds true for all drugs. Do we really want a society where any drug is available to those who want it?

[Dalianwanda]

So I guess the question is where do you draw the line? If the argument is that prohibition leads to black markets then that holds true for all drugs. Do we really want a society where any drug is available to those who want it?

So then comes back to what’s your definition of a drug? Until you define that a way of managing it in society is on flimsy foundations.

[Ozyhibby]

So I guess the question is where do you draw the line? If the argument is that prohibition leads to black markets then that holds true for all drugs. Do we really want a society where any drug is available to those who want it?

We currently have a society where any drug is available to those who want it?


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[Hibrandenburg]

Sadly more like delaying supply than restricting it.

More like just upping the price.

[archie]

So then comes back to what’s your definition of a drug? Until you define that a way of managing it in society is on flimsy foundations.

You don't think we have definitions now?

[archie]

We currently have a society where any drug is available to those who want it?


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But not freely available in the way that I think you want. The legal position is that access to certain drugs is illegal, so therefore buyers have to tap in to an black market to buy them.

[archie]

More like just upping the price.

Looking at the discussion on alcohol pricing, wouldn't that be a good thing?

[Hibrandenburg]

Looking at the discussion on alcohol pricing, wouldn't that be a good thing?

I wouldn't think so, there are many alcoholics who can function enough to earn their money for their legally obtained drug of choice, I'm not sure the same can be said for heroin or crack cocain addicts.

[archie]

I wouldn't think so, there are many alcoholics who can function enough to earn their money for their legally obtained drug of choice, I'm not sure the same can be said for heroin or crack cocain addicts.

So that implies policies need to increase the price of alcohol but reduce the price of heroin and crack?

[Hibrandenburg]

So that implies policies need to increase the price of alcohol but reduce the price of heroin and crack?

My preferred policy would be to aim to reduce all addiction through education rather than criminalisation. It seems to work elsewhere and makes sense to me, whereas criminalisation only creates linked criminality and social problems. I've never been a fan of criminalising bad things people do to themselves, instead let's stick to criminalising bad things people do to other people.

[Ozyhibby]

Looking at the discussion on alcohol pricing, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Although with minimum pricing, Tesco doesn’t get round it by lacing their cheaper beverages with poison.


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[Billy Whizz]

Drugs are evil, but where are these criminals getting guns from?

[Ozyhibby]

Drugs are evil, but where are these criminals getting guns from?

I guess once you set up sophisticated smuggling infrastructure then you can bring in anything.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Is MDMA not pretty safe if you take the real stuff and not the stuff we get here in the UK which is cut with all sorts of crap. With that, if it were legal it wouldn't be as dangerous as wouldn't be filled with the dangerous crap. I remember being in Holland years ago and shops had self testing kits where you could test your E in the shop to make sure it was safe. Even something like that would be better than what we currently have, which is nothing.

Yep.

And useful, too, for treatment of some mental health issues.

On your point about the recreational use; that Dutch policy of harm-reduction resulted in all the crap stuff being punted to the next biggest market, the UK. Hence why we had such an issue.

[archie]

Yep.

And useful, too, for treatment of some mental health issues.

On your point about the recreational use; that Dutch policy of harm-reduction resulted in all the crap stuff being punted to the next biggest market, the UK. Hence why we had such an issue.

There are lots of drugs that are useful in a health treatment context. That doesn't mean they should be freely available to society as a whole. Here's a different take on dutch drug policy impacts https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-the-possible-consequences-of-liberal-drugs-policies/a-51474578 And a very different perspective https://dutchreview.com/culture/society/why-all-drugs-should-be-decriminalised-netherlands/

[Ozyhibby]

There are lots of drugs that are useful in a health treatment context. That doesn't mean they should be freely available to society as a whole. Here's a different take on dutch drug policy impacts https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-the-possible-consequences-of-liberal-drugs-policies/a-51474578 And a very different perspective https://dutchreview.com/culture/society/why-all-drugs-should-be-decriminalised-netherlands/

Two good articles. The first one highlights why I’m in favour of full legalisation with the sale and production controlled by the state. Decriminalisation is a start but still leaves the criminal gangs in charge of supply. We need to take away their business model. The money that could be saved in the criminal justice system on top of the tax brought in could go a long way to actually helping people with drug problems.


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[Dalianwanda]

You don't think we have definitions now?

I’m asking about your definition, just to be clear.

[archie]

I’m asking about your definition, just to be clear.

I think this is a legitimate question. I guess there's a spectrum from caffeine to fentanyl and part of the classification of drugs for me would be around individual harm, how addictive the drug is, danger to individuals and societal harm. There is a really strong tension between individual liberty and protecting society. I really don't think criminalising some drug use is a good idea. But where do you draw that line? I think it's easier to draw that for crack than mdna, for example.

But I think the discussion here exposes a fundamental contradiction. There appear to be strong libertarian views around drug use. These parallel some views in, for example, the US. But the difference with the US libertarian views is that posters here expect the state to provide the drugs, in some cases for free and to provide the care for people should their drug use lead to negative consequences. So they aren't really libertarian at all.

For many people drug use (however you define it) will not impact on their wider life. But for some it will. Even smoking dope is coming under the radar as a factor in some alzhheimers http://alzheimer.ca/en/about-dementia/how-can-i-treat-dementia/cannabis-treatment-dementia

So the questions for me are threefold:

- is it legitimate for society to proscribe some drugs. My view would be yes.

- is there a legitimate discussion to be had about what drugs are prescribed and how society treats addicts? Absolutely.

- should these discussions be informed by individual and societal needs? Definitely.

So I don't agree with the apparent prevailing view here that all drugs should be legal and available.

I'm really not trying to have a nanny state or be naive about this. But given the impact that drug use (illegal and otherwise) can have on society, I think placing restrictions is legitimate. I accept that brings consequences for black markets and organised crime. I don't think these issues mean that we give up.

Finally, I think it's a really depressing vision for society that the offer to young people is a life where they get out their head and potentially addicted to state sponsored drugs.

[Ozyhibby]

I think this is a legitimate question. I guess there's a spectrum from caffeine to fentanyl and part of the classification of drugs for me would be around individual harm, how addictive the drug is, danger to individuals and societal harm. There is a really strong tension between individual liberty and protecting society. I really don't think criminalising some drug use is a good idea. But where do you draw that line? I think it's easier to draw that for crack than mdna, for example.

But I think the discussion here exposes a fundamental contradiction. There appear to be strong libertarian views around drug use. These parallel some views in, for example, the US. But the difference with the US libertarian views is that posters here expect the state to provide the drugs, in some cases for free and to provide the care for people should their drug use lead to negative consequences. So they aren't really libertarian at all.

For many people drug use (however you define it) will not impact on their wider life. But for some it will. Even smoking dope is coming under the radar as a factor in some alzhheimers http://alzheimer.ca/en/about-dementia/how-can-i-treat-dementia/cannabis-treatment-dementia

So the questions for me are threefold:

- is it legitimate for society to proscribe some drugs. My view would be yes.

- is there a legitimate discussion to be had about what drugs are prescribed and how society treats addicts? Absolutely.

- should these discussions be informed by individual and societal needs? Definitely.

So I don't agree with the apparent prevailing view here that all drugs should be legal and available.

I'm really not trying to have a nanny state or be naive about this. But given the impact that drug use (illegal and otherwise) can have on society, I think placing restrictions is legitimate. I accept that brings consequences for black markets and organised crime. I don't think these issues mean that we give up.

Finally, I think it's a really depressing vision for society that the offer to young people is a life where they get out their head and potentially addicted to state sponsored drugs.

I don’t approach it from a libertarian point of view really. I strongly believe in gun control.
I just think we have the balance totally wrong when it comes to drugs.
The thing about the state providing drugs is that they won’t encourage it. And it takes the criminal gangs out the equation.
Especially for the most harmful opiates it would be highly beneficial. Where would be the benefit for drug dealers in getting someone hooked on heroin if the moment they were they could just nip to the doctors and get it on prescription? I think that there would be less people starting out on that path in the first place. And that’s what I want most of all.
Where I’m less certain is in the ‘party’ drug market. That would need to be carefully managed. Again though I would still seek to eliminate the black market while at the same time keep the drugs as socially unacceptable as possible.
The way we treat cigarettes is a good starting point. We don’t allow advertising or even people to see the products. We don’t allow it in pubs etc. And we have managed to reduce the number of smokers massively over the last 30 years. Education has been key. There is a black market for tobacco but it’s tiny compared to other drugs and it’s not bringing violence to our streets.
People will always want to try drugs. We need to seek ways to reduce the harm from that, not just to the people who take the drugs but also wider society. Our current solution is seeing little girls being shot in their homes. We can’t be getting that right?


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[Smartie]

I don’t approach it from a libertarian point of view really. I strongly believe in gun control.
I just think we have the balance totally wrong when it comes to drugs.
The thing about the state providing drugs is that they won’t encourage it. And it takes the criminal gangs out the equation.
Especially for the most harmful opiates it would be highly beneficial. Where would be the benefit for drug dealers in getting someone hooked on heroin if the moment they were they could just nip to the doctors and get it on prescription? I think that there would be less people starting out on that path in the first place. And that’s what I want most of all.
Where I’m less certain is in the ‘party’ drug market. That would need to be carefully managed. Again though I would still seek to eliminate the black market while at the same time keep the drugs as socially unacceptable as possible.
The way we treat cigarettes is a good starting point. We don’t allow advertising or even people to see the products. We don’t allow it in pubs etc. And we have managed to reduce the number of smokers massively over the last 30 years. Education has been key. There is a black market for tobacco but it’s tiny compared to other drugs and it’s not bringing violence to our streets.
People will always want to try drugs. We need to seek ways to reduce the harm from that, not just to the people who take the drugs but also wider society. Our current solution is seeing little girls being shot in their homes. We can’t be getting that right?


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I think it’s important to remain open minded that other approaches might be more successful, particularly when they’re being tried out in real time in other countries.

Personally, I have very mixed feelings on the subject.

[archie]

I don’t approach it from a libertarian point of view really. I strongly believe in gun control.
I just think we have the balance totally wrong when it comes to drugs.
The thing about the state providing drugs is that they won’t encourage it. And it takes the criminal gangs out the equation.
Especially for the most harmful opiates it would be highly beneficial. Where would be the benefit for drug dealers in getting someone hooked on heroin if the moment they were they could just nip to the doctors and get it on prescription? I think that there would be less people starting out on that path in the first place. And that’s what I want most of all.
Where I’m less certain is in the ‘party’ drug market. That would need to be carefully managed. Again though I would still seek to eliminate the black market while at the same time keep the drugs as socially unacceptable as possible.
The way we treat cigarettes is a good starting point. We don’t allow advertising or even people to see the products. We don’t allow it in pubs etc. And we have managed to reduce the number of smokers massively over the last 30 years. Education has been key. There is a black market for tobacco but it’s tiny compared to other drugs and it’s not bringing violence to our streets.
People will always want to try drugs. We need to seek ways to reduce the harm from that, not just to the people who take the drugs but also wider society. Our current solution is seeing little girls being shot in their homes. We can’t be getting that right?


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Thanks for the reply. Maybe the issue between us here is that you are looking at societal harm from the perspective of reducing the black market and crime, whereas I'm looking at it in terms of the impact on individuals. These are not incompatible, but hard to balance.

[archie]

I think it’s important to remain open minded that other approaches might be more successful, particularly when they’re being tried out in real time in other countries.

Personally, I have very mixed feelings on the subject.
I agree.

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for the reply. Maybe the issue between us here is that you are looking at societal harm from the perspective of reducing the black market and crime, whereas I'm looking at it in terms of the impact on individuals. These are not incompatible, but hard to balance.

I also think the current approach is harming individuals.
When we prescribe drugs in this country we are very clear about the labelling so that the consumer knows every ingredient that goes into each drug. For some reason we are happy not to do that with the recreational drugs young people are using. That is causing some real harms as drug dealers seek to cut their drugs with ever more harmful substitutes.


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[archie]

I also think the current approach is harming individuals.
When we prescribe drugs in this country we are very clear about the labelling so that the consumer knows every ingredient that goes into each drug. For some reason we are happy not to do that with the recreational drugs young people are using. That is causing some real harms as drug dealers seek to cut their drugs with ever more harmful substitutes.


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You are absolutely right. This is not a simple issue and whatever approach we adopt has bad outcomes for someone.

[He's here!]

https://inews.co.uk/news/olivia-pratt-korbel-trial-liverpool-no-grass-culture-jail-thomas-cashman-2237839

Hard to underestimate the guts it must have taken for her to come forward. I'm guessing she might now be living somewhere else under a new identity?

[Kato]

I would not go as far as that. I would use a state monopoly to sell drugs like cannabis. I don’t think there should be a commercial incentive to sell more of it. I just want it out the hands of the crime gangs.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkErrm. Take Back Control.

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[Kato]

I think it's very difficult to apply. TBH I think with your approach you have to go all the way. A physiological addiction like heroin or crack is easily diagnosed. But cocaine or MDMA?

Cocaine addiction is easily dedectable. MDMA is non addictive.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Where would be the benefit for drug dealers in getting someone hooked on heroin if the moment they were they could just nip to the doctors and get it on prescription?

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It’s hard enough getting a GP appointment as it is and now you want to give priority booking to heroin users :grr: :greengrin

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65132105

Killer jailed for 42 years.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65132105

Killer jailed for 42 years.

That’s an appropriately harsh sentence. Pleased to see that. I wish similar tariffs applied to certain other serious offences.

[Scouse Hibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65132105

Killer jailed for 42 years.

His final act of cowardice was that he refused to attend the sentencing hearing, ****.

[DH1875]

Apparently has a contract out on him. Gonna be a long 42 years.