Scotrail

[Since90+2]

This isn't a direct dig at Train drivers but how has it came about that a train driver can earn on average £52,000 a year after training for 18 months or so, but a nurse needs to train for 3 years and then can literally work any time day or night and not be paid overtime be paid around £35,000?

I'm not saying driving a train isn't a fairly important or skilled job, but it's higher paid than some airlines pay their pilots for example and I'd imagine flying a commercial airliner takes more skill than a driving a train.

Good on the drivers if they can get the work but it just seems so out of sync when compared to other skills and professions.

[overdrive]

This isn't a direct dig at Train drivers but how has it came about that a train driver can earn on average £52,000 a year after training for 18 months or so, but a nurse needs to train for 3 years and then can literally work any time day or night and not be paid overtime be paid around £35,000?

I'm not saying driving a train isn't a fairly important or skilled job, but it's higher paid than some airlines pay their pilots for example and I'd imagine flying a commercial airliner takes more skill than a driving a train.

Good on the drivers if they can get the work but it just seems so out of sync when compared to other skills and professions.

I think it’s widely accepted that the RMT is one of the most effective unions. I think it will be partly down to that.

[Onceinawhile]

This isn't a direct dig at Train drivers but how has it came about that a train driver can earn on average £52,000 a year after training for 18 months or so, but a nurse needs to train for 3 years and then can literally work any time day or night and not be paid overtime be paid around £35,000?

I'm not saying driving a train isn't a fairly important or skilled job, but it's higher paid than some airlines pay their pilots for example and I'd imagine flying a commercial airliner takes more skill than a driving a train.

Good on the drivers if they can get the work but it just seems so out of sync when compared to other skills and professions.

I thought a pilot was roughly a low six figure job? I'm amazed it's below £50,000.

What I would say though, is both pilots and train drivers are in charge of transporting hundreds of people (thousands per day, if a train driver is making 5 or 6 journeys) and yet, the relative skills are probably broadly similar, except a pilot is unlikely to come across anything once he is up and running, where as a train driver could have people running on the track, animals, cars at level crossing etc... to deal wth.

I think the question is not why are train drivers so highly paid, but why are nurses so massively undervalued?

I say this being as frustrated as anyone that I can't get the train through from bathgate or the return to bathgate at the times I want when I'm working, and it seems likely to impact my plans for my gig next weekend.

[Since90+2]

I thought a pilot was roughly a low six figure job? I'm amazed it's below £50,000.

What I would say though, is both pilots and train drivers are in charge of transporting hundreds of people (thousands per day, if a train driver is making 5 or 6 journeys) and yet, the relative skills are probably broadly similar, except a pilot is unlikely to come across anything once he is up and running, where as a train driver could have people running on the track, animals, cars at level crossing etc... to deal wth.

I think the question is not why are train drivers so highly paid, but why are nurses so massively undervalued?

I say this being as frustrated as anyone that I can't get the train through from bathgate or the return to bathgate at the times I want when I'm working, and it seems likely to impact my plans for my gig next weekend.

You could be correct on pilots, I thought I had seen they were paid about £40,000 as a starting salary on the budget airlines.

I get the point about Train drivers having to deal with outside issues on the track ect but then you could say the same about bus drivers who also transport hundreds of people a day and also have to work nights and weekends. I believe a bus driver is paid about half of what a train driver is paid for doing broadly similar roles.

Is a train driver overpaid or a bus driver underpaid?

[Lendo]

You could be correct on pilots, I thought I had seen they were paid about £40,000 as a starting salary on the budget airlines.

I get the point about Train drivers having to deal with outside issues on the track ect but then you could say the same about bus drivers who also transport hundreds of people a day and also have to work nights and weekends. I believe a bus driver is paid about half of what a train driver is paid for doing broadly similar roles.

Is a train driver overpaid or a bus driver underpaid?

A Ryanair or EasyJet pilot makes on average £39k pa which is wild given the level of responsibility they have. That’s according to Glassdoor. Guessing that the role is a stepping stone, like it is for stewards, to bigger and better airlines.

A London tube driver makes on average £60k

[Jack]

Nurses won't go on strike. Employers take advantage.

[Onceinawhile]

You could be correct on pilots, I thought I had seen they were paid about £40,000 as a starting salary on the budget airlines.

I get the point about Train drivers having to deal with outside issues on the track ect but then you could say the same about bus drivers who also transport hundreds of people a day and also have to work nights and weekends. I believe a bus driver is paid about half of what a train driver is paid for doing broadly similar roles.

Is a train driver overpaid or a bus driver underpaid?

I would argue both an element of both tbh. I think salaries for a bus driver are around 29-32K. That should probably go up, and train driver should probably be lower (in an ideal world).


A Ryanair or EasyJet pilot makes on average £39k pa which is wild given the level of responsibility they have. That’s according to Glassdoor. Guessing that the role is a stepping stone, like it is for stewards, to bigger and better airlines.

A London tube driver makes on average £60k

I'm genuinely amazed that a pilot earns that little. Would not have expected it at all.

Not so surprised about the tube driver. The London weighting probably adds 7-10K to that Job and it is apparently incredibly stressful. I certainly wouldn't want a job where you only see daylight infrequently.

[Pretty Boy]

A Ryanair or EasyJet pilot makes on average £39k pa which is wild given the level of responsibility they have. That’s according to Glassdoor. Guessing that the role is a stepping stone, like it is for stewards, to bigger and better airlines.

A London tube driver makes on average £60k

Pilots salries tend to progress quite quickly as they log flying hours. £25Kish starting salary for Junior First Officers becomes £45K for a First Officer and can become £100K+ for senior Pilots. It's about 6-7 years to progress to the pilot role.

The likes of Easyjet have a big academy so a lot of people coming in at the lower end of the scale which will drag their average down.

Worth considering as well that the training cost is around £100K. Quite often airlines will subsidise this to varying extents or even completely underwrite it in exceptional circumstances.

[Since90+2]

I would argue both an element of both tbh. I think salaries for a bus driver are around 29-32K. That should probably go up, and train driver should probably be lower (in an ideal world).



I'm genuinely amazed that a pilot earns that little. Would not have expected it at all.

Not so surprised about the tube driver. The London weighting probably adds 7-10K to that Job and it is apparently incredibly stressful. I certainly wouldn't want a job where you only see daylight infrequently.

A fully qualified bus driver with Lothian Buses starts on £25.5k and goes up to 29.5k after 3 years. A trainee driver will be on significantly less.

[Ozyhibby]

Given that the tech exists already for trains not to have a driver at all then I’d say that it’s a good wage. The rail unions are strong because of their ability to bring an economy to a standstill. That’s why their wages are high.
SG have made a smart move in reducing the timetable. It means that the drivers will need to go on full strike now to force any further disruption. There is not a lot of public sympathy for the drivers yet and if they escalate then I can’t see that changing. And I would imagine that the drivers themselves don’t have the appetite for their income going to zero if they go on full strike.


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[danhibees1875]

Given that the tech exists already for trains not to have a driver at all then I’d say that it’s a good wage. The rail unions are strong because of their ability to bring an economy to a standstill. That’s why their wages are high.
SG have made a smart move in reducing the timetable. It means that the drivers will need to go on full strike now to force any further disruption. There is not a lot of public sympathy for the drivers yet and if they escalate then I can’t see that changing. And I would imagine that the drivers themselves don’t have the appetite for their income going to zero if they go on full strike.


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Reduce the timetable now so that they can't threaten to reduce the timetable later - that's straight out of the Terry Butcher 'how to deal with industrial action' playbook.

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Reduce the timetable now so that they can't threaten to reduce the timetable later - that's straight out of the Terry Butcher 'how to deal with industrial action' playbook.

:greengrin

They have reduced the timetable rather than try and keep the timetable running and having services cancelled at the last minute, which annoys people more.
The next move is the drivers, do they escalate or capitulate?


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[Since90+2]

They have reduced the timetable rather than try and keep the timetable running and having services cancelled at the last minute, which annoys people more.
The next move is the drivers, do they escalate or capitulate?


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I've not followed it that closely but is there not a 3rd option for drivers where they just continue in perpetuity with the reduced service? I think they are still on full pay, minus overtime obviously, but given they earn in excess of 50k a year they could probably stick it out for a good while whilst the Scottish night-time economy takes an absolute tanking.

[danhibees1875]

They have reduced the timetable rather than try and keep the timetable running and having services cancelled at the last minute, which annoys people more.
The next move is the drivers, do they escalate or capitulate?


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I get more annoyed by Hibs conceding in the last minute, it doesn't make me any less entertained by shoehorning in that Terry Butcher comment whenever I can. :greengrin

It sounded like they were planning to escalate it anyway. An article I read the other day had them targeting August time with all the associated Edinburgh festivities.

[Lendo]

So are the strikes up here just ahead of the curve? Will this be expected to take pace down south too in the next few weeks?

[Ozyhibby]

I've not followed it that closely but is there not a 3rd option for drivers where they just continue in perpetuity with the reduced service? I think they are still on full pay, minus overtime obviously, but given they earn in excess of 50k a year they could probably stick it out for a good while whilst the Scottish night-time economy takes an absolute tanking.

They can do that as well but the SG is training more drivers and if that keeps up then they could be saying goodbye to their overtime for good. And of course the more drivers there are, the less bargaining power they will have.


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[Ozyhibby]

So are the strikes up here just ahead of the curve? Will this be expected to take pace down south too in the next few weeks?

It looks like it.


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[Since90+2]

They can do that as well but the SG is training more drivers and if that keeps up then they could be saying goodbye to their overtime for good. And of course the more drivers there are, the less bargaining power they will have.


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It would take about 18 months to train more drivers. The loss to the economy would be absolutely huge if that was allowed to happen.

I've just read it's estimated the reduced timetable will cost around £80 million a week to the Scottish economy. £80 million x80 weeks is running into the billions, no government is going to allow the strike to run that long and cost the country billions.

I don't particularly have an opinion either way on the strike but it appears to me doing some sums it's the drivers who hold the aces here and not the SG.

[Ozyhibby]

It would take about 18 months to train more drivers. The loss to the economy would be absolutely huge if that was allowed to happen.

I agree. I think the new drivers have already started their training and some are almost finished.
I can see both sides of the argument here with inflation so high but I can also see the SG’s point that they can’t go higher.
I suspect that the drivers might be overplaying their hand here though.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

freakin £52k for sitting reading a paper whilst the train trundles along on auto-pilot


opening and closing doors at platforms

flicking a few switches for heating/Air conditioning



gies a job






or maybe a little more complicated ? :) either way tell them to gtf and think of the millions less well off and having to choose between Eating or Heating... ****s

[Hibbyradge]

Nurses won't go on strike. Employers take advantage.

Most nurses are women...

[Since90+2]

Most nurses are women...

Most bus drivers are men.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/jackson_carlaw/status/1529406761400254465?s=21&t=m7TOG-9FSbx4iu-6hzWiKg

Jackson Carlaw being taken to task, mostly by Englands rail users.[emoji23]


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[Smartie]

Are they still looking for train drivers?

I was seriously considering a career change and it was something that appealed.

[Ozyhibby]

Are they still looking for train drivers?

I was seriously considering a career change and it was something that appealed.

Yes, I believe so. From what I understand it’s great pay and conditions.


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[Santa Cruz]

Are they still looking for train drivers?

I was seriously considering a career change and it was something that appealed.

No vacancies on their website. They're after a Workforce Planning Officer, sounds like an important role, wonder why the person left who was previously doing this job :wink:

[Just Alf]

https://twitter.com/jackson_carlaw/status/1529406761400254465?s=21&t=m7TOG-9FSbx4iu-6hzWiKg

Jackson Carlaw being taken to task, mostly by Englands rail users.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere was a segment on the radio Scotland news earlier, they mentioned Sturgeon now being the longest serving first minister, the *only* person interviewed was Carlaw, and obviously all negative.

Balance?

Ps... this annoys me more than it should but I got really fed up of cranks being given airtime over covid, brexit etc spouting provable lies but the defence was it was to provide "balance"... sigh.. :-(

[Northernhibee]

freakin £52k for sitting reading a paper whilst the train trundles along on auto-pilot


opening and closing doors at platforms

flicking a few switches for heating/Air conditioning



gies a job






or maybe a little more complicated ? :) either way tell them to gtf and think of the millions less well off and having to choose between Eating or Heating... ****s

They had a driver on LBC a few days ago. Three times hospitalised from people throwing things through the window and either getting injuries from glass or the object. Dealing with people leaping in front of the trains and being powerless to not hit them. Long hours, Stressful job, large responsibilities, multiple routes to learn. Tracks in poor condition so lots of considerations to make in inclement weather (think to the Stonehaven rail disaster).

Just because someone feels underpaid doesn't mean that you shouldn't support those who feel the same but are doing something about it.

[He's here!]

A fully qualified bus driver with Lothian Buses starts on £25.5k and goes up to 29.5k after 3 years. A trainee driver will be on significantly less.

Some of them can be grumpy but bearing in mind the number of bampots they have to deal with (not to mention navigating Edinburgh's roadworks infested streets) on a daily basis I think they more than earn their money. No chance I'd want to drive a bus for a living.

[Since90+2]

Some of them can be grumpy but bearing in mind the number of bampots they have to deal with (not to mention navigating Edinburgh's roadworks infested streets) on a daily basis I think they more than earn their money. No chance I'd want to drive a bus for a living.

I agree, well atleast in terms of their salary compared to a train driver. Bus drivers also have to deal with the public, including bams and drunks directly, whereas a train driver will have very little interaction with the general public.

[Ozyhibby]

They had a driver on LBC a few days ago. Three times hospitalised from people throwing things through the window and either getting injuries from glass or the object. Dealing with people leaping in front of the trains and being powerless to not hit them. Long hours, Stressful job, large responsibilities, multiple routes to learn. Tracks in poor condition so lots of considerations to make in inclement weather (think to the Stonehaven rail disaster).

Just because someone feels underpaid doesn't mean that you shouldn't support those who feel the same but are doing something about it.

Sounds like he would welcome driverless trains?


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[Since90+2]

They had a driver on LBC a few days ago. Three times hospitalised from people throwing things through the window and either getting injuries from glass or the object. Dealing with people leaping in front of the trains and being powerless to not hit them. Long hours, Stressful job, large responsibilities, multiple routes to learn. Tracks in poor condition so lots of considerations to make in inclement weather (think to the Stonehaven rail disaster).

Just because someone feels underpaid doesn't mean that you shouldn't support those who feel the same but are doing something about it.

I can't get my head around a train driver thinking they are underpaid on £52,000 before overtime. Everyone would like to be paid more if they could but they can't honestly think they are underpaid on that salary.

As a comparison a Police Officer, who will also deal with people throwing things and attacking them, deaths, drug users, long and unsociable hours are paid a starting salary of £27,000 rising to £33,000 after 3 years.

[Northernhibee]

I can't get my head around a train driver thinking they are underpaid on £52,000 before overtime. Everyone would like to be paid more if they could but they can't honestly think they are underpaid on that salary.

As a comparison a Police Officer, who will also deal with people throwing things and attacking them, deaths, drug users, long and unsociable hours are paid a starting salary of £27,000 rising to £33,000 after 3 years.

Nobody said that those professions weren’t underpaid.

[Since90+2]

Nobody said that those professions weren’t underpaid.

Maybe so, but even with a 20% pay rise, which would be unheard, of they'd still be paid significantly less than Train drivers.

Train drivers are not underpaid on £52,000 a year. That is clearly not the case and if that's what they are claiming they will not get a lot of public sympathy.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe so, but even with a 20% pay rise, which would be unheard, of they'd still be paid significantly less than Train drivers.

Train drivers are not underpaid on £52,000 a year. That is clearly not the case and if that's what they are claiming they will not get a lot of public sympathy.

Which is why I think they may be over playing their hand.[emoji51]


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[JimBHibees]

Is the strike not politically motivated to have a pop at SG?

[Since90+2]

Is the strike not politically motivated to have a pop at SG?

Why, are most Scotrail drivers anti SNP?

[ronaldo7]

Just noticed a question raised in the parliament in England regarding scotrail being charged more than double for track access on network rail than any other train operator. Ripping off the Scots again, something like the National grid.

[franck sauzee]

freakin £52k for sitting reading a paper whilst the train trundles along on auto-pilot


opening and closing doors at platforms

flicking a few switches for heating/Air conditioning



gies a job






or maybe a little more complicated ? :) either way tell them to gtf and think of the millions less well off and having to choose between Eating or Heating... ****s

I think this is mostly tongue in cheek but the industries fortunate to have strong unions are imo doing the right things to increase their worker's wages. The general public have been getting taken for mugs for decades now working low wages at the expense of shareholder profits.

[Pretty Boy]

I think this is mostly tongue in cheek but the industries fortunate to have strong unions are imo doing the right things to increase their worker's wages. The general public have been getting taken for mugs for decades now working low wages at the expense of shareholder profits.

Exactly.

We have a living wage in this country that is nothing of the sort. Take into account the basic cost of surviving and there is very little for someone on the 'living' wage to actually live off. Rather than decrying those who are in a strong position to fight their case, we should be asking questions as to why so many people in other professions and industries are so chronically underpaid.

Given some of the same old tired anti union rhetoric I've read on here in recent months, I don't expect that to be a popular view though.

[Mon Dieu4]

Exactly.

We have a living wage in this country that is nothing of the sort. Take into account the basic cost of surviving and there is very little for someone on the 'living' wage to actually live off. Rather than decrying those who are in a strong position to fight their case, we should be asking questions as to why so many people in other professions and industries are so chronically underpaid.

Given some of the same old tired anti union rhetoric I've read on here in recent months, I don't expect that to be a popular view though.

The government and companies love us all fighting amongst ourselves, it's like the old public V private sector debate that gets everyone riled up, good luck to anyone who can get as much as possible out their work I say

[SHODAN]

Classic capitalism turning the public on the people who actually earn what they're worth and not on the people underpaying everyone else.

[Antifa Hibs]

I can't get my head around a train driver thinking they are underpaid on £52,000 before overtime. Everyone would like to be paid more if they could but they can't honestly think they are underpaid on that salary.

As a comparison a Police Officer, who will also deal with people throwing things and attacking them, deaths, drug users, long and unsociable hours are paid a starting salary of £27,000 rising to £33,000 after 3 years.

Have you been reading the Daily Mail why listening to Nick Ferrari this morning?

If a train driver feels he's underpaid and working conditions aren't great, then guess what, they're underpaid and conditions aren't great.




Not aimed at anyone in particular but it pisses me off the whole "i'm a nurse and went to uni for 4 years and i'm only earning 300 quid a month more than a shelf stacker" Realistically, what do you want? Would reducing the shelve stackers wages by 200 quid a month make you feel better about yourself? It's mental. If you don't think you're earning enough, don't whinge and piss all over the checkout operator or burger flipper as they're earning that amount, fight like **** to increase your own wages.

Classic divide and conquer tactics and it still works.

[Since90+2]

Have you been reading the Daily Mail why listening to Nick Ferrari this morning?

If a train driver feels he's underpaid and working conditions aren't great, then guess what, they're underpaid and conditions aren't great.






This literally made me laugh out loud.

It's such a ridiculous way to ascertain if someone is actually underpaid or not I'll just leave it there.

[JeMeSouviens]

Maybe so, but even with a 20% pay rise, which would be unheard, of they'd still be paid significantly less than Train drivers.

Train drivers are not underpaid on £52,000 a year. That is clearly not the case and if that's what they are claiming they will not get a lot of public sympathy.

Irrespective of what anyone else is getting, 2.2% is a long way short of current inflation, so train drivers' living standards are being eroded. Their union is perfectly within its rights to try and stop that happening. Obviously they have to balance that with not collapsing the service altogether.

[Antifa Hibs]

This literally made me laugh out loud.

It's such a ridiculous way to ascertain if someone is actually underpaid or not I'll just leave it there.

Equally as ridiculous as comparing a train driver to a nurse, or a polis to a mcdonalds worker, or an off-shore rigger to a bus driver...

[Hibernian Verse]

Equally as ridiculous as comparing a train driver to a nurse, or a polis to a mcdonalds worker, or an off-shore rigger to a bus driver...

Sometimes I feel I'm underpaid, but I know deep down I'm not.

[oconnors_strip]

Is the strike not politically motivated to have a pop at SG?

Scotrail drivers aren’t on strike, they are just not working on their rest days and not doing any overtime. The railway wouldn’t run at all without staff working their rest days

[JimBHibees]

Scotrail drivers aren’t on strike, they are just not working on their rest days and not doing any overtime. The railway wouldn’t run at all without staff working their rest days

Ok cheers

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61595016

Significant offer from Scotrail. I would think they will take this deal.[emoji106]


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[lucky]

I think it’s widely accepted that the RMT is one of the most effective unions. I think it will be partly down to that.

Except the RMT don’t represent train drivers ASLEF do. It should also be noted that scotrail drivers have not been on strike for over 20 years and aren’t on strike just now. Drivers have decided not to work overtime as the original offer was derisory. It’s also incredibly stupid for anyone to think this has anything to do with ASLEF being affiliated to the Labour Party. This is all about a union and it’s members fighting for a decent pay rise at a time when we are all facing a cost of living crisis.

If other workers feel undervalued by their employer then they should join a union and get organised and fight for their worth. Unions are there to represent its members not to allow their wages to go down.

It astounds me that fellow workers feel the need to attack other workers rather than greedy employers.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61664953

Train drivers turn down 4.2% raise

[Since90+2]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61664953

Train drivers turn down 4.2% raise

How does that offer compare to the wage rises offered to other public sector workers?

[Just_Jimmy]

How does that offer compare to the wage rises offered to other public sector workers?Blows them out the water, I'd guess.

Most will get 1-2% absolute tops which on top of years of freezes or 1% means they're actually about 10%+ in real terms behind since 2010ish.

Which, however, is not to say train drivers shouldn't maximise their income.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Blows them out the water, I'd guess.

Most will get 1-2% absolute tops which on top of years of freezes or 1% means they're actually about 10%+ in real terms behind since 2010ish.

Which, however, is not to say train drivers shouldn't maximise their income.

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Turning down an increase of more than 2 grand before tax!

[Coach Jon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61664953

Train drivers turn down 4.2% raise

Greedy Bar Stewards.

[Lendo]

No matter what they get in the end theyll be back pulling this stunt next year

[Ozyhibby]

I know it’s a better offer than just about anyone else will get this year (company directors and senior management excluded) but with inflation at 9% then it still represents a cut in their living standards.
I do feel they have been badly advised though. I doubt Scotrail has the ability to offer more so we are probably heading for an all out strike. That will cost the drivers a lot of money and times being as they are I doubt there will be much support for them.


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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

No matter what they get in the end theyll be back pulling this stunt next year

Why is asking for a decent wage and terms and conditions, a stunt?

[danhibees1875]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61664953

Train drivers turn down 4.2% raise

I can't imagine them being offered much more than that. Hard to see how this one gets resolved anytime soon.

Looks like some grim months ahead if they strike. Which will have quite an impact on hospitality and entertainment businesses, particularly going into August.

[Ozyhibby]

I can't imagine them being offered much more than that. Hard to see how this one gets resolved anytime soon.

Looks like some grim months ahead if they strike. Which will have quite an impact on hospitality and entertainment businesses, particularly going into August.

I think we are in for some tough times ahead across all public services. Unions are going to be asking for money the SG just doesn’t have with it’s fixed budget. We are going to be seeing a lot of strike action over the next couple of years.


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[Hermit Crab]

I think it’s widely accepted that the RMT is one of the most effective unions. I think it will be partly down to that.


Its not RMT this time, the train drivers union is ASLEF

[Skol]

Why is asking for a decent wage and terms and conditions, a stunt?

I see it that way as in part its a quirk of their T&Cs that enables them to take this action.

I doubt if many people will have any where near the offer they have and I know personally that my organisation has had no pay rise in the last 2 years. I reckon we would bite their hand off for 4.2%

[He's here!]

Greedy Bar Stewards.

Absolutely. Aslef are living on another planet if they think that offer isn't very reasonable in the current financial climate. Selfish in the extreme and more or less assures us of a painful summer for rail travellers in Scotland.

[Since90+2]

Why is asking for a decent wage and terms and conditions, a stunt?

They are not asking for a decent wage, they already have that with a salary way over the national average.

[Smartie]

Absolutely. Aslef are living on another planet if they think that offer isn't very reasonable in the current financial climate. Selfish in the extreme and more or less assures us of a painful summer for rail travellers in Scotland.

Personally I think it's quite hard to assess what is "reasonable" in the current financial climate.

Have we had the Tories in charge for so long that a proposed increase miles short of the rate of inflation is acceptable just because it's likely to be better than that offered to other public sector workers?

[Stairway 2 7]

Personally I think it's quite hard to assess what is "reasonable" in the current financial climate.

Have we had the Tories in charge for so long that a proposed increase miles short of the rate of inflation is acceptable just because it's likely to be better than that offered to other public sector workers?

Inflation in the majority of Europe is above 8% and will rise further. Its not economical for everyone to get that rise. It will come down over the next few years thankfully. Its clearly a good offer from scot gov

[Ozyhibby]

Inflation in the majority of Europe is above 8% and will rise further. Its not economical for everyone to get that rise. It will come down over the next few years thankfully. Its clearly a good offer from scot gov

It’s a great offer to be honest. This will turn out badly for the drivers.


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[Moulin Yarns]

It’s a great offer to be honest. This will turn out badly for the drivers.


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They should be chuffed! :wink:

[Just Alf]

It’s a great offer to be honest. This will turn out badly for the drivers.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYup, they're basically asking for others to take even less of a rise.

I'm disappointed with my 1.2% but I realise it's a fixed pot of funding and can only hope for better in future... and that there IS actually a future!

[neil7908]

I'm generally supportive of unions but 4.2%, seems a great deal for a group who, from what I've read, are on average salaries of £50k+.

Yes incomes are being squeezed but that's a very, very good wage in Scotland.

[lucky]

Why compare worker v worker? Surely every worker is worth a rise that does not mean the their standard of living goes backwards. Train drivers earn decent money but that does not mean that other workers shouldn’t. More workers should join a union get organised and fight for improvements in their terms and conditions. I find bizarre that on football fans forum that we have people complaining about salaries of workers, FFS it was rumoured that Muller was £10k a week at Hibs! Surely every worker has the right to negotiate their salary and if that means joining a union and taking industrial action, even though train drivers haven’t taken action, then so be it.

[Santa Cruz]

Why compare worker v worker? Surely every worker is worth a rise that does not mean the their standard of living goes backwards. Train drivers earn decent money but that does not mean that other workers shouldn’t. More workers should join a union get organised and fight for improvements in their terms and conditions. I find bizarre that on football fans forum that we have people complaining about salaries of workers, FFS it was rumoured that Muller was £10k a week at Hibs! Surely every worker has the right to negotiate their salary and if that means joining a union and taking industrial action, even though train drivers haven’t taken action, then so be it.

Don't disagree with this post, other than to say, all public sector workers should have comparable pay increases to avoid these comparisons. If Aslef keep pushing and they negotiate an award above 5% this will cause a huge ripple affect through all other public sector unions. The offer they have been given in the current climate is fair imo. If they ballot for industrial action, I can't see it lasting long, they need a salary too.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why compare worker v worker? Surely every worker is worth a rise that does not mean the their standard of living goes backwards. Train drivers earn decent money but that does not mean that other workers shouldn’t. More workers should join a union get organised and fight for improvements in their terms and conditions. I find bizarre that on football fans forum that we have people complaining about salaries of workers, FFS it was rumoured that Muller was £10k a week at Hibs! Surely every worker has the right to negotiate their salary and if that means joining a union and taking industrial action, even though train drivers haven’t taken action, then so be it.

Football wages are shocking, we don't support they workers. The world is seeing hyper inflation due to fuel prices and a hopefully once in a lifetime pandemic. Its not sustainable for everyone in the world an inflation matching wage rise.

It would also be lunacy as inflation is going to drop a big deal next year, so wage rise has to take that into account. We're all going to face a hit this year. Scot govs offer was fair I believe and would give them less of a hit that most workers I would think.

[Just Alf]

Why compare worker v worker? Surely every worker is worth a rise that does not mean the their standard of living goes backwards. Train drivers earn decent money but that does not mean that other workers shouldn’t. More workers should join a union get organised and fight for improvements in their terms and conditions. I find bizarre that on football fans forum that we have people complaining about salaries of workers, FFS it was rumoured that Muller was £10k a week at Hibs! Surely every worker has the right to negotiate their salary and if that means joining a union and taking industrial action, even though train drivers haven’t taken action, then so be it.For me the comparison is simply that every single one of us will be taking a hit, even self employed folks as people will have less funds to go around... those that are unhappy at the railway workers are just wondering why they should take less of a hit than the rest of us.

Mate I play pool with says his brother's a bit peeved as he's getting grief for being a greedy 'b' and tory like, and he's claiming him and many colleagues are actually happy to take the offer but hasn't been asked.

[Ozyhibby]

For me the comparison is simply that every single one of us will be taking a hit, even self employed folks as people will have less funds to go around... those that are unhappy at the railway workers are just wondering why they should take less of a hit than the rest of us.

Mate I play pool with says his brother's a bit peeved as he's getting grief for being a greedy 'b' and tory like, and he's claiming him and many colleagues are actually happy to take the offer but hasn't been asked.

I think it’s a decent offer and I’m surprised they are not taking it.
Whatever they get, it will have to be recouped in higher train fares for the rest of us.


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[SChibs]

For me the comparison is simply that every single one of us will be taking a hit, even self employed folks as people will have less funds to go around... those that are unhappy at the railway workers are just wondering why they should take less of a hit than the rest of us.

Mate I play pool with says his brother's a bit peeved as he's getting grief for being a greedy 'b' and tory like, and he's claiming him and many colleagues are actually happy to take the offer but hasn't been asked.

I think the problem is that is not every single one of us that will be taking the hit. The rich people will coninue to make more and more money and many companies will continue to make record profits. Its the poorer half of society that is expected to make the cuts to their lifestyle and go through the hards time when the rich do not have to

[hibsbollah]

Why compare worker v worker? Surely every worker is worth a rise that does not mean the their standard of living goes backwards. Train drivers earn decent money but that does not mean that other workers shouldn’t. More workers should join a union get organised and fight for improvements in their terms and conditions. I find bizarre that on football fans forum that we have people complaining about salaries of workers, FFS it was rumoured that Muller was £10k a week at Hibs! Surely every worker has the right to negotiate their salary and if that means joining a union and taking industrial action, even though train drivers haven’t taken action, then so be it.

:agree:

[Just Alf]

I think the problem is that is not every single one of us that will be taking the hit. The rich people will coninue to make more and more money and many companies will continue to make record profits. Its the poorer half of society that is expected to make the cuts to their lifestyle and go through the hards time when the rich do not have toPretty much agree with that, and that's the issue I think, folks see people on £50k as 'rich' and take a really dim view of them getting a bigger % wage increase than many others on a lower wage (increasing the % differential)


Edit, I should add I don't begrudge the current % offer, we all live to our current 'means' so will be impacted by rising prices, some sort of increase across the board isn't out of order.

[speedy_gonzales]

Not all Scotrail drivers are on the much touted £50K.
But even if they all were, encouraging the average Joe to attack the fellow worker rather than encouraging everyone to fight for decent pay, reward and annual increase is right out the Tory playbook.
Network Rail staff have suffered two years of pay freezes and have not been paid contractual bonuses that on average can equate to 2 or 4% of salary. That is proper cuts to salary and the staff are now in dispute with the company.
It might feel like the 80's all over again but for me the very minimum is to honour contractual obligations and have an annual salary increment that's close to something like CPI, RPI, etc.

[James310]

Not all Scotrail drivers are on the much touted £50K.
But even if they all were, encouraging the average Joe to attack the fellow worker rather than encouraging everyone to fight for decent pay, reward and annual increase is right out the Tory playbook.
Network Rail staff have suffered two years of pay freezes and have not been paid contractual bonuses that on average can equate to 2 or 4% of salary. That is proper cuts to salary and the staff are now in dispute with the company.
It might feel like the 80's all over again but for me the very minimum is to honour contractual obligations and have an annual salary increment that's close to something like CPI, RPI, etc.

I wonder if it wasn't a SNP government and a Tory government if people would still be calling the train drivers greedy and siding with the government over the workers. Hard to say probably.

[Just Alf]

I wonder if it wasn't a SNP government and a Tory government if people would still be calling the train drivers greedy and siding with the government over the workers. Hard to say probably.It's a good point I guess, I've not even considered that aspect... my personal view is we all need to take a bit of a hit, so why should those already paid much higher than many not be impacted as much?

I've had less than a 2% pay rise, doing so means no redundancies and vacancies currently being advertised will still be filled. We could have driven for more, most of us would have been a bit better off a couple would be out though.

I still agree with the staff that are happy with the 4% odd... seems a fair compromise to me.

[Santa Cruz]

Its not RMT this time, the train drivers union is ASLEF

This is RMT - full article too long to paste.

SCOTLAND'S railways are set to be paralysed by a three-day train workers strike to bring even more misery to travellers.
More than 50,000 railway staff will walkout later this month in the biggest dispute on the network in 33 years.
The RMT union will shut down the country's railway network on 21st, 23rd and 25th June, in an ongoing UK-wide dispute with Network Rail -which owns the nation’s rail tracks, stations and signals – over plans to axe hundreds of critical maintenance jobs.

[neil7908]

I think it’s a decent offer and I’m surprised they are not taking it.
Whatever they get, it will have to be recouped in higher train fares for the rest of us.


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There is also a danger here as well about the impact on usage of railway. The longer this drags on, the more likely people are to find other ways of getting around. Use of public transport is already down on the pandemic, and prolonged reductions like this will make people less likely to use trains, with the potential that lower usage in the future means job losses.

I support workers but I found it puzzling the union execs rejected the deal without even allowing a vote - that struck me as very odd and made me question their motives.

[neil7908]

I wonder if it wasn't a SNP government and a Tory government if people would still be calling the train drivers greedy and siding with the government over the workers. Hard to say probably.

Think it's a bit more complex than that, as ultimately the SNP do not have the same powers and levers to generate revenue the way the UK Govt does. They are working with much less options to find money to cover big pay rises for the public sector, with a much larger likelihood it comes from cuts somewhere else.

[ronaldo7]

Think it's a bit more complex than that, as ultimately the SNP do not have the same powers and levers to generate revenue the way the UK Govt does. They are working with much less options to find money to cover big pay rises for the public sector, with a much larger likelihood it comes from cuts somewhere else.

:agree:

The Government in England just borrow more and tell us we're paying for it later.

[lucky]

There is also a danger here as well about the impact on usage of railway. The longer this drags on, the more likely people are to find other ways of getting around. Use of public transport is already down on the pandemic, and prolonged reductions like this will make people less likely to use trains, with the potential that lower usage in the future means job losses.

I support workers but I found it puzzling the union execs rejected the deal without even allowing a vote - that struck me as very odd and made me question their motives.

The union Executive never put it to a vote because the negotiators wouldn’t recommend it after consultation with drivers in Scotland

[Sylar]

I see they're telling Scotland fans to leave before the final whistle tonight as the last train from the national stadium is before full-time.

A public transport infrastructure that's not fit for purpose, especially if this Government have genuine ambitions to get people out of cars and using trains/buses etc as part of their climate ambitions.

[JeMeSouviens]

I see they're telling Scotland fans to leave before the final whistle tonight as the last train from the national stadium is before full-time.

A public transport infrastructure that's not fit for purpose, especially if this Government have genuine ambitions to get people out of cars and using trains/buses etc as part of their climate ambitions.

This post neatly sums up why Scotgov are absolute mugs to nationalise the railway operating company. It's a guaranteed failure as they have neither the control of the infrastructure (network rail) nor the power to borrow the sort of money it would take to sort it out, even if that were affordable. They have made themselves the scapegoats for decades of chronic underinvestment.

At least it will make a change from ferries I suppose.

[Sylar]

This post neatly sums up why Scotgov are absolute mugs to nationalise the railway operating company. It's a guaranteed failure as they have neither the control of the infrastructure (network rail) nor the power to borrow the sort of money it would take to sort it out, even if that were affordable. They have made themselves the scapegoats for decades of chronic underinvestment.

At least it will make a change from ferries I suppose.

I definitely don't blame them for what's gone before JMS and I don't necessarily blame them entirely here either. But the fact of the matter is that the service is as bad as it's ever been right now, and I don't see any plans or suggestions that it's going to improve under the SG ownership model (so far!).

You're spot on that previous failure in investment and a lack of ownership over the actual infrastructure are massive barriers to what can realistically be done within cost, but they've downgraded the service with those same constraints compared to the previous owners by quite some margin.

I'm not using this as any kind of hammer to beat the Government for political argument - this is an area I'd really like them to succeed in, because their climate change ambitions are great and I want to see them achieve those goals. It would also be great for me on a personal level to be able to get from my home town into and out of work/the city without it costing me more than fuel (although that's debatable in recent months), and without fear that I'm going to get stranded due to ongoing issues.

[JeMeSouviens]

I definitely don't blame them for what's gone before JMS and I don't necessarily blame them entirely here either. But the fact of the matter is that the service is as bad as it's ever been right now, and I don't see any plans or suggestions that it's going to improve under the SG ownership model (so far!).

You're spot on that previous failure in investment and a lack of ownership over the actual infrastructure are massive barriers to what can realistically be done within cost, but they've downgraded the service with those same constraints compared to the previous owners by quite some margin.

I'm not using this as any kind of hammer to beat the Government for political argument - this is an area I'd really like them to succeed in, because their climate change ambitions are great and I want to see them achieve those goals. It would also be great for me on a personal level to be able to get from my home town into and out of work/the city without it costing me more than fuel (although that's debatable in recent months), and without fear that I'm going to get stranded due to ongoing issues.

Sorry, I didn't mean to personalise that. I just can't see how it can be made to work practically and therefore I think it's daft politically. It's just going to end up a larger version of the ferries and Prestwick. :dunno:

[Stairway 2 7]

Sorry, I didn't mean to personalise that. I just can't see how it can be made to work practically and therefore I think it's daft politically. It's just going to end up a larger version of the ferries and Prestwick. :dunno:

We got 500 million extra through Barnet for crossrail and 270 million for hs2. Although that could have been used for more important social things, but money was given

[SteveHFC]

Thought the Alcohol ban was to help with Covid?

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1534541487182123009?s=21&t=LqjiqDiPRtaiBaCZzmv5Eg

[danhibees1875]

Thought the Alcohol ban was to help with Covid?

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1534541487182123009?s=21&t=LqjiqDiPRtaiBaCZzmv5Eg

If the government are now more involved in this decision making then there would seem to be less chance of it changing. Either way, sounds like it's here to stay.

Although I imagine in the right train environment you'll get away with it.

[Since90+2]

If the government are now more involved in this decision making then there would seem to be less chance of it changing. Either way, sounds like it's here to stay.

Although I imagine in the right train environment you'll get away with it.

Ridiculous, and totally disproportionate.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thought the Alcohol ban was to help with Covid?

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1534541487182123009?s=21&t=LqjiqDiPRtaiBaCZzmv5Eg

Aye they are talking pish it was a temporary covid measure. Said at the time gov will try to cling onto some restrictions as long as possible. If people or businesses are still using covid to behave now, then they will never get back to normal

ScotRail
@ScotRail
· Nov 15, 2020
From tomorrow, alcohol will be banned in all ScotRail stations and on all of our trains. This is a temporary measure to help ensure physical distancing while you’re travelling with us throughout COVID-19.

[SHODAN]

No-one getting even more drunk on trains any more? Gutted.

[Ozyhibby]

Deal done with drivers. 5%


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[Since90+2]

Deal done with drivers. 5%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As mentioned already on this thread the Scottish Government have made a rod for their own back taking the railways back into public hands. Every single other public sector industry will ask for 5% and I can't see how the SG can turn that request down.

[Stairway 2 7]

How long do we reckon until all trains are driverless. More and more countries are increasing the amount of driverless tracks covered. London is planning to have all its underground sections of its network underground. Glasgows subway will be driverless soon with testing begun.

A decade or so?

[neil7908]

No-one getting even more drunk on trains any more? Gutted.

Agreed. Personally quite happy with that but appreciate others will feel differently.

[Stairway 2 7]

Everyone still drinks on the train and quite openly, like Mhairi Black

[Santa Cruz]

As mentioned already on this thread the Scottish Government have made a rod for their own back taking the railways back into public hands. Every single other public sector industry will ask for 5% and I can't see how the SG can turn that request down.

EIS threatening strike action unless they get 10%....and so it begins. They should just give them the 5% now, I think kids have suffered enough disruption in the past 2 years.

https://www.eis.org.uk/Latest-News/President2022

[Since90+2]

How long do we reckon until all trains are driverless. More and more countries are increasing the amount of driverless tracks covered. London is planning to have all its underground sections of its network underground. Glasgows subway will be driverless soon with testing begun.

A decade or so?

Probably a bit more than that, which is part of the issue. Let's say it takes 15 years, I would imagine that takes a fair old chunk of the drivers into retirement age or very close to it, a very sizeable pension will also have been built up in that timescale. In other words, I don't think that will be a particular concern for the drivers.

If we were talking the next 5 years or so then maybe things would be different, but that's never going to happen.

[Stairway 2 7]

Probably a bit more than that, which is part of the issue. Let's say it takes 15 years, I would imagine that takes a fair old chunk of the drivers into retirement age or very close to it, a very sizeable pension will also have been built up in that timescale. In other words, I don't think that will be a particular concern for the drivers.

If we were talking the next 5 years or so then maybe things would be different, but that's never going to happen.

It's still a worry, then 10 years after that all the car and busses driving jobs

[overdrive]

Everyone still drinks on the train and quite openly, like Mhairi Black

It’s the unopened bit I take issue with. Before we moved in together, I was getting the train to my partner’s old place for the weekend and got a bottle of wine on way to Waverley. My bag was full so I put the wine in the water bottle pouch on the side of my backpack and the ticket conductor told me I’d have to leave the train after Haymarket because of it… I was getting off at South Gyle anyway but it was a piece of absolute nonsense. What harm is an unopened bottle of wine in a backpack pouch doing?

[Ozyhibby]

It's still a worry, then 10 years after that all the car and busses driving jobs

You should look at it as freeing those people up to do other more productive work.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s the unopened bit I take issue with. Before we moved in together, I was getting the train to my partner’s old place for the weekend and got a bottle of wine on way to Waverley. My bag was full so I put the wine in the water bottle pouch on the side of my backpack and the ticket conductor told me I’d have to leave the train after Haymarket because of it… I was getting off at South Gyle anyway but it was a piece of absolute nonsense. What harm is an unopened bottle of wine in a backpack pouch doing?

That's ridiculous and would stop anyone coming back with duty free then using Prestwicks trains. ******g jobsworth

[Paulie Walnuts]

If the government are now more involved in this decision making then there would seem to be less chance of it changing. Either way, sounds like it's here to stay.

Although I imagine in the right train environment you'll get away with it.

Is this a Scotrail rule only?

I’ve been on LNER to London loads since this was introduced and people have been drinking before we’ve even left Waverley every time.

[Lendo]

EIS threatening strike action unless they get 10%....and so it begins. They should just give them the 5% now, I think kids have suffered enough disruption in the past 2 years.

https://www.eis.org.uk/Latest-News/President2022

Weren’t they given 13.5% (over a three year period) the last time they threatened to strike, about three years ago?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Is this a Scotrail rule only?

I’ve been on LNER to London loads since this was introduced and people have been drinking before we’ve even left Waverley every time.

I think it is although my brother's lot are heading down to Berwick on LNER tomorrow and it's been designated a dry train between Aberdeen and Newcastle.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think it is although my brother's lot are heading down to Berwick on LNER tomorrow and it's been designated a dry train between Aberdeen and Newcastle.

I’ve never had a drink on these trains so I’ve never looked into whether these were dry or not. If they were then there was certainly nobody enforcing it.

[Pretty Boy]

I think it is although my brother's lot are heading down to Berwick on LNER tomorrow and it's been designated a dry train between Aberdeen and Newcastle.

There has been dry trains on a Friday between Aberdeen and Newcastle for a long time.

When I used to travel down from Aberdeen regularly, I always made sure I wasn't on one.

[Santa Cruz]

Weren’t they given 13.5% (over a three year period) the last time they threatened to strike, about three years ago?

No idea, maybe that deal expired and this is new negotiations? Doesn't matter anyway Unison to ballot 25,000 school support staff on Friday to begin (targeted I think - would need to read the article again) industrial action after summer. GMB and Unite plan to do the same. Their offer was also 2%.

[Sir David Gray]

Thought the Alcohol ban was to help with Covid?

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1534541487182123009?s=21&t=LqjiqDiPRtaiBaCZzmv5Eg

I don't think this should come as any surprise to anyone.

I think it's completely wrong how this has come about of course as it was clearly publicised as a temporary measure back in November 2020 and was supposed to be "reviewed continuously as government guidelines change."

The law on wearing a face covering on public transport was lifted nearly 8 weeks ago so I'm not too sure what government guidelines they are still referring to.

The fact they are having to resort to lying to people on social media is not a good look at all. I understand that people are saying there's no big deal in banning alcohol on trains but to me it goes deeper than that. It's something which was brought in to deal with a very specific emergency situation, an emergency situation which no longer exists and therefore I strongly believe all pandemic related emergency measures should be lifted immediately.

I suspect this has always been something which has been on the cards and the pandemic was just the convenient opportunity they needed to implement it.

In my opinion there's no chance that this will be lifted now Scotrail is under Scottish Government control. I think we've seen over the last two years that treating people as adults is not too high on their priority list.

We already had "dry" trains on routes where there was the possibility of alcohol related trouble taking place and also a ban on drinking alcohol before and after certain times of the day. I don't see why there is any need to go further.

The people who are inclined to get drunk and cause trouble are not likely to be put off by an alcohol ban. It's the people who are on a day out from Edinburgh up to Inverness etc who just want to relax for a few hours and have a couple of drinks with their friends who will be the ones who will stop drinking.

The whole thing stinks.

[SteveHFC]

I don't think this should come as any surprise to anyone.

I think it's completely wrong how this has come about of course as it was clearly publicised as a temporary measure back in November 2020 and was supposed to be "reviewed continuously as government guidelines change."

The law on wearing a face covering on public transport was lifted nearly 8 weeks ago so I'm not too sure what government guidelines they are still referring to.

The fact they are having to resort to lying to people on social media is not a good look at all. I understand that people are saying there's no big deal in banning alcohol on trains but to me it goes deeper than that. It's something which was brought in to deal with a very specific emergency situation, an emergency situation which no longer exists and therefore I strongly believe all pandemic related emergency measures should be lifted immediately.

I suspect this has always been something which has been on the cards and the pandemic was just the convenient opportunity they needed to implement it.

In my opinion there's no chance that this will be lifted now Scotrail is under Scottish Government control. I think we've seen over the last two years that treating people as adults is not too high on their priority list.

We already had "dry" trains on routes where there was the possibility of alcohol related trouble taking place and also a ban on drinking alcohol before and after certain times of the day. I don't see why there is any need to go further.

The people who are inclined to get drunk and cause trouble are not likely to be put off by an alcohol ban. It's the people who are on a day out from Edinburgh up to Inverness etc who just want to relax for a few hours and have a couple of drinks with their friends who will be the ones who will stop drinking.

The whole thing stinks.

Sent them a message on Twitter about the tweet and the fact this was only to be a temporary measure to help with the pandemic and they came back with

‘Anything that helps create a safe environment for everyone to travel in has to be a good thing so we're keeping the ban for now but will keep it under review.’

Like you said the pandemic was the perfect opportunity they needed to ban it.

[neil7908]

Deal done with drivers. 5%


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Oooofffft that a fair increase. I look forward to my fare going up now and still not getting a seat at peak times.

[Ozyhibby]

Oooofffft that a fair increase. I look forward to my fare going up now and still not getting a seat at peak times.

Or a drink.[emoji23]


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[Sir David Gray]

Sent them a message on Twitter about the tweet and the fact this was only to be a temporary measure to help with the pandemic and they came back with

‘Anything that helps create a safe environment for everyone to travel in has to be a good thing so we're keeping the ban for now but will keep it under review.’

Like you said the pandemic was the perfect opportunity they needed to ban it.

:agree: Pathetic.

[Callum_62]

I've always thought since living overseas that having alcohol on public transport was mad (where I lived it was banned)

However it's came about I agree with banning it here

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[DinkyTwo]

I've always thought since living overseas that having alcohol on public transport was mad (where I lived it was banned)

However it's came about I agree with banning it here

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkThing is, most of Europe seem to manage having relaxed public drinking laws without it causing problems. The issue isn't really people having a beer on the train, its anti-social behaviour. And this is a lazy attempt to try to tackle it - at best.

The questions I'd be asking are:

1) What impact has the alcohol ban on trains had? Are trains now a generally safer environment?

2) What about drinking on the street? Is there more antisocial behaviour in Edinburgh and Aberdeen when compared to the rest of the country? If not, why do we ban public consumption of alcohol in practically every other council area?

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[Stairway 2 7]

I've always thought since living overseas that having alcohol on public transport was mad (where I lived it was banned)

However it's came about I agree with banning it here

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Where did you stay. I've been surprised how common it is to see people of all ilks having a bottle of beer on public transport in eastern Europe. Berlin, krakow, Prague, Warsaw and more it's seemed more prevalent compared to here.

[Ozyhibby]

Thing is, most of Europe seem to manage having relaxed public drinking laws without it causing problems. The issue isn't really people having a beer on the train, its anti-social behaviour. And this is a lazy attempt to try to tackle it - at best.

The questions I'd be asking are:

1) What impact has the alcohol ban on trains had? Are trains now a generally safer environment?

2) What about drinking on the street? Is there more antisocial behaviour in Edinburgh and Aberdeen when compared to the rest of the country? If not, why do we ban public consumption of alcohol in practically every other council area?

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I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I wonder how much train travel is down due to working from home now being the norm in many places post covid.

[danhibees1875]

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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Presumably anyone drunk enough and of the mentality to behave inappropriately on the train will be at the point where they're doing so already though? Seems unlikely having another 1/2 on the train will tip them over the edge. I guess that doesn't apply to longer journeys where you could have a good amount - but typically they're cross-border and you're allowed to anyway (I think? :confused: ).

The trains just need a commercial deal with some drinks companies, find a way to make money out of it and reduce the ticket price accordingly. Win-win.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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Train violence now up from pre covid levels in Scotland, which is surprising as journeys down. Maybe drink calmed people down😆.

British Transport Police predicts upsurge in violence on Scottish rail network as it reports rise in incidents
Violence is expected to increase on the Scottish rail network, British Transport Police (BTP) has warned as it reported a rise in incidents

The rail police force predicted an upsurge would be fuelled by warmer weather and busier trains, after new figures showed an 8 per cent increase in violent crime on Scotland’s railways compared to pre-Covid levels.

Threatening and abusive conduct also went up, by 30 per cent to 883 incidents in 2021/22 compared to 2019/20.

Such incidents involving under-18s jumped by 63 per cent from 243 to 397 incidents.

Publication of the figures comes after The Scotsman revealed three members of a specially-formed ScotRail team to tackle anti-social behaviour were assaulted on a Gourock-Glasgow train on Good Friday, with one taken to hospital.

Other incidents have included a ticket examiner tackling a gang of youths who had attacked a boy with a bottle on a Balloch-Glasgow train on May 1.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) has threatened a staff boycott of such routes if action is not stepped up.

The figures also showed anti-social behaviour incidents increased by 53 per cent in 2021/22 compared to pre-Covid levels, with the total increasing by 1,261 to 3,660.

[DinkyTwo]

I don’t use the trains but there does appear to be a problem with anti-social behaviour with women’s groups asking for female only carriages. The fact is that it’s Scotrail’s decision to make and if dealing with this problem is costing them money then they are perfectly entitled to say they would rather not. I don’t think it’s fair to other passengers to have to put up rail fares to cover the cost of dealing with this.


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I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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[Callum_62]

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





Sent from my Pixel 5 using TapatalkThe right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



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[Callum_62]

Where did you stay. I've been surprised how common it is to see people of all ilks having a bottle of beer on public transport in eastern Europe. Berlin, krakow, Prague, Warsaw and more it's seemed more prevalent compared to here.New Zealand

Which also had a ban on alcohol in place in alot of public spaces

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[Stairway 2 7]

The right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



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I'd doubt if people are going to get steaming the train is the main place they will get steaming. They will still get steaming and use the trains.

Seeing as since the ban anti social behaviour is well up than pre covid, it obviously makes no difference.

I'm sure people would be for it if it dropped antisocial behaviour by a decent amount.

[Santa Cruz]

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





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Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

[Ozyhibby]

I doubt the management of Scotrail are fully paid up members of the temperance society so they must see this as a solution to a problem that is costing them money? I would rather they solve it like this rather than put up the price of tickets.


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[Hibbyradge]

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though.

What?

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt the management of Scotrail are fully paid up members of the temperance society so they must see this as a solution to a problem that is costing them money? I would rather they solve it like this rather than put up the price of tickets.


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Even if its not working as it antisocial behaviour increased after it came in? I'm all for solutions that make a noticeable difference

[JeMeSouviens]

Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

Agree with this. I can see both sides to an extent as I've enjoyed a wee carry out or 2 on the train in the past but at the end of the day, it's public transport, not a public bar on wheels.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotlands-railway-faces-shutdown-despite-breakthrough-pay-talks-between-scotrail-and-aslef-train-drivers

Still looking at a rail shutdown. One of the problems of the track and trains being run by different govts.


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[overdrive]

If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

[Stairway 2 7]

If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

Or just openly do it like everyone is now, including mhairi black mp

Storm in a can of t cup

[Since90+2]

If you really want a drink on the train, you’ll find ways round it, e.g. vodka and lemonade in a 7up bottle or wine in a KeepCup, etc.

That's for jakies though.

What about your average couple or punter just wanting a beer or glass of wine on a Friday as they go away for the weekend? That's the people who are being punished here.

[Ozyhibby]

That's for jakies though.

What about your average couple or punter just wanting a beer or glass of wine on a Friday as they go away for the weekend? That's the people who are being punished here.

That’s always the case. The action of a minority make life more difficult for everyone. The price of your pint when you go up town is massively inflated to cover the cost of the security at the door, the cctv they have installed and all the paperwork the bar has to do to satisfy the licensing board that the premises are safe. You have to pay this inflated price even if you have never been in a bar fight in your life.


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[hibsbollah]

If its me getting pished on the train, thats fine.

if its other folk, not so much.

On balance, i agree with the ban and want it to continue, but i will continue to ignore it myself.

[Since90+2]

That’s always the case. The action of a minority make life more difficult for everyone. The price of your pint when you go up town is massively inflated to cover the cost of the security at the door, the cctv they have installed and all the paperwork the bar has to do to satisfy the licensing board that the premises are safe. You have to pay this inflated price even if you have never been in a bar fight in your life.


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I wonder how other parts of the UK manage to cope with alcohol being allowed but somehow it's simply not permissable in Scotland.

As far as I'm aware it's allowed in NI, Wales, England and also the ROI. Scotland is the outlier here.

Maybe we're all just too daft and stupid to be trusted with the bevvy?

[JimBHibees]

I don't think there's any substantial evidence that alcohol is the driving factor behind the antisocial behaviour, though. And that's really what I take an issue with - instead of getting to the root of the problem, we've jumped straight to taking away rights from the general public.

Scotrail are now also publically owned. So any decision they make is by default, endorsed by the Scottish Government.

If this was the Tories, we'd (quite rightly) be saying that this sort of heavy handed approach to governance was a prequel to fascism.

First it was no drinking on the street.
Then minimum pricing
Then no drinking on trains...

What's next? Drinking prohibited after 10pm? Restaurants can't serve a glass of wine with your dinner?





Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.

[Stairway 2 7]

There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.

But banning on trains isn't going to stop it being banned in society. Thus the number of incidents not only didn't drop they increased since the ban.

If they had decreased they would have bigged up how good they were, but it didn't

[Pretty Boy]

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

[DinkyTwo]

The right to get steaming and shout nonsense on the train

Fascism!



Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkAre you not capable of having a can of beer without getting steaming and shouting nonsense?

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[DinkyTwo]

Alcohol is a driving factor behind anti social behaviour in general situations, like pubs, parties, family get togethers etc. I don't really see how trains would somehow manage to escape this problem. I wouldn't say I've ever noticed this during the day on trains, seems more like people boarding trains already leathered and keeping their sesh going during the journey home.

You don't think it's more to do with the person who's drinking, rather than alcohol itself?

Most people I know are perfectly capable of having a few drinks without smashing things up or getting into a fight.

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?



I'm not against this policy, even if it is only a minority who are the problem, it gives the majority the right to travel in a more safe and comfortable way on their journey.

I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't really think that the booze ban makes much of a difference to the train journey environment. It's still like the wild west at times after a night out, partially because the people who are likely to behave antisocially when drunk are already at that stage when they get on but also because there's rarely anything in the way of security or police presence, which further emboldens people looking to carry on.

I don't like the idea that the majority should be restricted due to the misbehaviour of a few, but at least if we could see that it was having a meaningful impact then it'd be easier to accept.




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[danhibees1875]

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

:agree:

The other side of the coin with the volatile services is that it's too overwhelming to police.

I was on a train last year through to Glasgow and it coincided with a Celtic game and a music festival - the train was filled to the brim with people drinking dragon soup and suchlike.

There's probably just a middle section that'll actually get targeted. Which I guess is reason enough to not be too upset by the rules staying - just frustrating that'll be the group of reasoned people who just conduct themselves in line with the rules that'll be restricted in their actions.

[DinkyTwo]

What?How many times have you kicked off on the train after a few drinks?

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[Ozyhibby]

You don't think it's more to do with the person who's drinking, rather than alcohol itself?

Most people I know are perfectly capable of having a few drinks without smashing things up or getting into a fight.

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?



I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't really think that the booze ban makes much of a difference to the train journey environment. It's still like the wild west at times after a night out, partially because the people who are likely to behave antisocially when drunk are already at that stage when they get on but also because there's rarely anything in the way of security or police presence, which further emboldens people looking to carry on.

I don't like the idea that the majority should be restricted due to the misbehaviour of a few, but at least if we could see that it was having a meaningful impact then it'd be easier to accept.




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I don’t think there are any staff on a Scotrail train to kick people off though. They likely have to call the police.


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[DinkyTwo]

There is substantial evidence alcohol is a key factor in all sorts of anti social or violent incidents across the country.Then ban drunk people from getting on the train at all, if it's that easy to identify alcohol as the root cause.

The reason why people do bad things is because they have, on some level, made the decision to do that. Alcohol might enable people and make them more likely to behave badly, but it's not the underlying cause - excluding issues with addiction...etc.

Solving that problem is much harder and outside the remit of a transportation company so they've just decided to try to mitigate it by being more restrictive on what folk can and can't do whilst using their services. Fair enough.

However, it definitely is within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Government to try to figure out why in Scotland our problem with antisocial behaviour is so bad that we have to be more restrictive around where and when folk can consume alcohol, compared with rUK and Europe.



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[Stairway 2 7]

Then ban drunk people from getting on the train at all, if it's that easy to identify alcohol as the root cause.

The reason why people do bad things is because they have, on some level, made the decision to do that. Alcohol might enable people and make them more likely to behave badly, but it's not the underlying cause - excluding issues with addiction...etc.

Solving that problem is much harder and outside the remit of a transportation company so they've just decided to try to mitigate it by being more restrictive on what folk can and can't do whilst using their services. Fair enough.

However, it definitely is within the jurisdiction of the Scottish Government to try to figure out why in Scotland our problem with antisocial behaviour is so bad that we have to be more restrictive around where and when folk can consume alcohol, compared with rUK and Europe.



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Have we got more antisocial behaviour than the rest of the uk?

[DinkyTwo]

I don’t think there are any staff on a Scotrail train to kick people off though. They likely have to call the police.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's kinda what I'm getting at.

With or without alcohol being consumed, trains (especially at night) can feel like quite a dangerous place to be in. There's literally nobody about who has the authority to step in and stop something awful from happening.

I remember thinking the same thing last year when this was going on:

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/terrifying-train-gang-video-teenager-21898300

A young boy was then murdered inside a Glasgow train station the next day in what is believed to have been an act of retribution. No mention of any booze being consumed in either incident.

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[DinkyTwo]

Have we got more antisocial behaviour than the rest of the uk?We must do; it's the trotted out reason for not allowing booze at football, on trains and in public.

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[Ozyhibby]

We must do; it's the trotted out reason for not allowing booze at football, on trains and in public.

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We don’t. Scotland is the safest part of the UK. Our crime levels are far far below what they are in England and Wales.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We don’t. Scotland is the safest part of the UK. Our crime levels are far far below what they are in England and Wales.


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Let us have our champagne on the train then.

[lapsedhibee]

You'd likely be kicked out of a pub, party, family gathering if you couldn't behave yourself. Why should that be any different if it's on a train?



None of those other places you mention move at 100mph?

[hibsbollah]

I was on a train home from Inverness a few weeks back. I completely forgot about the ban so had bought some cans to drink on the journey home.

I cracked open a can, buried my head in a book and didn't think anything of it until my ticket was checked and I was told it was no longer allowed. I immediately apologised and explained I had just forgotten. The guy had a look around the carriage (myself and half a dozen others max) and said it was ok as long as I was discreet and off he went. A bit common sense from him and apologising without becoming confrontational from me and everything was totally fine. Simple really.

I think there is a balance to be had. By all means have complete bans on potentially volatile services. The last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a Saturday for example (although if people have been bevvying all day I'm not sure how effective stopping them having one last can is going to be). However the vast, vast majority of people I see drinking on trains are no bother at all. Most people sit quietly and enjoy a drink, bigger groups can be loud but are generally harmless. In recent times I can't say I've felt any less safe on LNER and Cross Country service that permit alcohol (and appear to have more drinkers because they are generally speaking carrying people going on longer journeys) than I have on Scotrail services which are dry.

Exactly what the conductor guy said to me, oddly also on the Inverness train. If no dodgy behaviour looks likely he’ll let it pass most of the time. Everything is about context.

[DinkyTwo]

None of those other places you mention move at 100mph?Kicking them off whilst going full tilt is a bit extreme

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[Moulin Yarns]

Kicking them off whilst going full tilt is a bit extreme

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Serve them right though 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿😁

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder how other parts of the UK manage to cope with alcohol being allowed but somehow it's simply not permissable in Scotland.

As far as I'm aware it's allowed in NI, Wales, England and also the ROI. Scotland is the outlier here.

Maybe we're all just too daft and stupid to be trusted with the bevvy?

:agree: Not only that but other operators whose trains run in Scotland allow alcohol to be consumed onboard, including during the Scottish leg of the journeys.

So you can travel around Scotland by train and consume alcohol whilst you're doing so, but just not on the country's national operator.

[Since90+2]

:agree: Not only that but other operators whose trains run in Scotland allow alcohol to be consumed onboard, including during the Scottish leg of the journeys.

So you can travel around Scotland by train and consume alcohol whilst you're doing so, but just not on the country's national operator.

Too drunk too stupid, too wee to handle our bevvy. Tories are always putting us down treating us like kids. Oh actually hold on a minute...

[lucky]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

[lucky]

Probably a bit more than that, which is part of the issue. Let's say it takes 15 years, I would imagine that takes a fair old chunk of the drivers into retirement age or very close to it, a very sizeable pension will also have been built up in that timescale. In other words, I don't think that will be a particular concern for the drivers.

If we were talking the next 5 years or so then maybe things would be different, but that's never going to happen.

Driverless trains will not happen in the next 30 years. The railway in the U.K. was mostly built in Victorian times and does not have reliable connectivity in lots of areas to have any sort of system that could accommodate the necessary equipment to do this. In the north they don’t even have a modern signalling system. I also doubt that many people will accept travelling at speeds up to 125mph without a human being involved. Glasgow underground is automated but there is still a driver on every train. It’s far cheaper and safer to pay drivers the going rate for the job than spend hundreds of billions of pounds on driverless trains. If the U.K. government or Scottish government has billions to spend driverless trains would be way down the agenda.

[Santa Cruz]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

'mon the Unions. Want to see more of this, workers have the right to feel safe at work. For me good working conditions are every bit as important as pay awards, although important to fight for both. :aok:

Edit - I'm not supporting any school strikes, understand they feel undervalued/underpaid but sick of the disruption to our kids lives.

[Keith_M]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.



Great post, totally agree.

[Since90+2]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

What evidence is there that it helps reduce anti social behaviour? Is there any evidence to back that claim up at all?

[Sir David Gray]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

If this was how it had actually come about then I think a lot more people may understand it, even if they still don't necessarily agree.

However this isn't how it was introduced. It was specifically put in place as a "temporary measure" over 18 months ago to help people travelling by train comply with emergency Covid-19 legislation i.e. to encourage social distancing and the wearing of face coverings whilst on public transport.

These emergency laws in Scotland ended two months ago and yet here we are still with the ban in place and Scotrail now seem to be resorting to revising history when it comes to explaining to the public on social media why the ban was initially put in place.

[Ozyhibby]

If this was how it had actually come about then I think a lot more people may understand it, even if they still don't necessarily agree.

However this isn't how it was introduced. It was specifically put in place as a "temporary measure" over 18 months ago to help people travelling by train comply with emergency Covid-19 legislation i.e. to encourage social distancing and the wearing of face coverings whilst on public transport.

These emergency laws in Scotland ended two months ago and yet here we are still with the ban in place and Scotrail now seem to be resorting to revising history when it comes to explaining to the public on social media why the ban was initially put in place.

Is it a ban or is it just Scotrail company policy?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What evidence is there that it helps reduce anti social behaviour? Is there any evidence to back that claim up at all?

It didn't it went up by a big bit since it was stopped. If it was the other way around they would have claimed it as a victory for them

[SHODAN]

The unions pushed for the banning of alcohol as staff were sick and tired by the amount of anti social behaviour on trains. Banning alcohol helps reduce ASB but unfortunately does not stop it. The vast majority of trips in Scotland are less than 40 minutes, it’s not to much to expect people not to drink whilst on public transport. On LNER most trains on a Friday afternoon from Scotland to Newcastle are dry and have security personnel onboard to enforce it. Scotrail don’t actually make much from alcohol sales as most who want to drink bring it with them. Responsible drinking is never a problem but there are too many incidents caused by drunken people that delay and disrupt journeys for everyone else.

Very measured and thoughtful post, unfortunately it's literally tyranny or whatever for people not to go half an hour without a drink so your argument is invalid.

I have been subject to more than one unwanted advance on the train from people pissed out of their minds. Can't imagine what it's like for women. If this goes any way to reducing that even a bit, then good.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I have been subject to more than one unwanted advance on the train from people pissed out of their minds. Can't imagine what it's like for women. If this goes any way to reducing that even a bit, then good.

Any chance of providing details of the services involved? 😉

[Paul1642]

https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/11/no-ticket-to-ride-japanese-bus-drivers-strike-by-giving-free-rides-okayama

Maybe they could do something like this :)

[Sir David Gray]

Is it a ban or is it just Scotrail company policy?


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According to Scotrail's own website it's a ban.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/our-rules-travel/alcohol-ban

[lucky]

It’s actually a railway by-law. Train operators can introduce alcohol bans which effectively mean they are laws under the terms of their licence. Rail staff are regularly spat on, verbally abused, physically abused, fire extinguishers stole and set off, pass comms pulled, full scale fights and women passengers subjected to unwanted sexual advances. To name a few issues that happen daily. The vast majority of this caused by people under the influence of alcohol. So if banning it helps reduce some of these incidents then it’s got to make using the railway a bit more pleasurable for everyone.

The railway is key in reducing our cabin footprint and must become a mode of choice as part of our public transport network, if we are going to get people our of cars onto trains and buses then it must be safe and affordable. The next fare rises in January could be eye bleeding as they are link to RPI plus 1%. No one will use the trains if prices shoot by by 10/11% and they are full of drunks or neds causing havoc.

[Stairway 2 7]

It’s actually a railway by-law. Train operators can introduce alcohol bans which effectively mean they are laws under the terms of their licence. Rail staff are regularly spat on, verbally abused, physically abused, fire extinguishers stole and set off, pass comms pulled, full scale fights and women passengers subjected to unwanted sexual advances. To name a few issues that happen daily. The vast majority of this caused by people under the influence of alcohol. So if banning it helps reduce some of these incidents then it’s got to make using the railway a bit more pleasurable for everyone.

The railway is key in reducing our cabin footprint and must become a mode of choice as part of our public transport network, if we are going to get people our of cars onto trains and buses then it must be safe and affordable. The next fare rises in January could be eye bleeding as they are link to RPI plus 1%. No one will use the trains if prices shoot by by 10/11% and they are full of drunks or neds causing havoc.

It's not antisocial behaviour is well up since the ban came in. You need to change society first. If someone is pissed they won't become sober on their 20 minute journey

[lucky]

It's not antisocial behaviour is well up since the ban came in. You need to change society first. If someone is pissed they won't become sober on their 20 minute journey

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.

[neil7908]

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.

That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.

Would you agree with banning drinks in parks, what about restaurants, pubs or ban it full stop.

[DinkyTwo]

ABS is up but if someone is pissed allowing them more alcohol is not the answer. But I do agree there needs to be societal change.
That's how I feel as well. Yes you'll still get trouble and people who are smashed will still get on trains but if its bad, in what scenario is giving them the chance to drink more going to make it better?

The honest answer is that we have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country, and that includes middle class folk as well. I understand for people it's about freedom but we really need to move away as a society from the idea that a a drink, even just a glass of wine, is some god given right.The thing is though, we're actually doing nothing to solve these problems.

We're just taking rights away from the general public.

Incredible that some people are prepared to accept that when there seems to be no evidence whatsoever that it is making a difference.

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[Keith_M]

South side of Glasgow into town is now down to one per hour on a Sunday.

The website says it's mostly down to a shortage of drivers.

[neil7908]

Would you agree with banning drinks in parks, what about restaurants, pubs or ban it full stop.

Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

[neil7908]

The thing is though, we're actually doing nothing to solve these problems.

We're just taking rights away from the general public.

Incredible that some people are prepared to accept that when there seems to be no evidence whatsoever that it is making a difference.

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Happy to fight for my human rights.

The right to drink whenever and wherever I feel like it isn't one of them though.

I also can't get a drink in a hospital, maybe we should be asking for a bar at the ERI? Why are we punishing the general public who just want a pint after visiting their nan following her hip surgery 😂😂?

[Stairway 2 7]

Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

Drinking has plummeted since 2009 we've almost dropped to English levels, youth Drinking plummeting from a few years before that. Things are getting better and will over the next few decades and it's not through prohibition and banning that doesn't work, it's through education.

[Stairway 2 7]

Uk drinks less than most eu nations and binge drink less than many too. But they can drink at football and transport OK. We've dropped a huge amount in the last decade and it's down to education not banning anything. From the press and public opinion I bet people think we drink the most. Youth Drinking dropping so the fall will be sustained

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25939

[Ozyhibby]

Drinking has plummeted since 2009 we've almost dropped to English levels, youth Drinking plummeting from a few years before that. Things are getting better and will over the next few decades and it's not through prohibition and banning that doesn't work, it's through education.

I’m dead against prohibition but this isn’t that.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m dead against prohibition but this isn’t that.


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The act of prohibition or being prohibited by law I mean. Same with the football. People in Europe drink more and fans are just as radge but they can be trusted with a pint. In England it looks like they are going to not only be able to have a drink at the concourse, but also at their seat soon.

[danhibees1875]

Next: signal workers.

95% of services cancelled next Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. A few Edinburgh and Glasgow lines will remain open with a limited service.

Significant disruption on the other days also.

[Onceinawhile]

On the bright side, lots of people going to the Ed Sheeran concerts over the next few days will be hugely inconvenienced, and for going to see Ed Sheeran, frankly, they deserve it.

[SChibs]

Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

So because you weren't fussed for something folk who would like to do it, and do it responsibly without causing trouble shouldn't be able to?

[heretoday]

Parks yes, absolutely. I lived in Glasgow for years and can't say my life was curtailed massively by not drinking when I was out about.

Restaurants, bars and pubs are totally different as someone is 1) letting you in (or not) depending on what state your in and 2) you are being served by someone who is also making an assessment and can cut you off. They are also not traveling at 100mph, so if there is trouble, it's much easier to get help.

We have a deeply unhealthy relationship with booze in this country and we need to start taking action to change our culture. Reducing the number of places you can have a bevvy isn't a bad thing imo.

Good post.

[Stairway 2 7]

We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

[SChibs]

Theres been a big increase in youths going round on bikes (probably stolen) and motorbikes causing mayhem. Some of the stuff they are getting up to is the definition of antisocial behaviour. Imagine the council tried to ban bikes completely because of the link to antisocial behaviour despite the fact majority of folk aren't the cause. It's the same for alcohol on trains, in parks etc.

[neil7908]

So because you weren't fussed for something folk who would like to do it, and do it responsibly without causing trouble shouldn't be able to?

Yup. Unfortunately far too many people can't handle their drink, and sadly end up inflicting this on others. Of course that's not the majority of drinkers but it's enough. And again, I don't believe being denied a drink, even for a responsible drinker, is a particular outrage.

I'll say it again - getting a drink is not a universal human right that I feel needs to be especially protected.

[Stairway 2 7]

25960

[Ozyhibby]

Theres been a big increase in youths going round on bikes (probably stolen) and motorbikes causing mayhem. Some of the stuff they are getting up to is the definition of antisocial behaviour. Imagine the council tried to ban bikes completely because of the link to antisocial behaviour despite the fact majority of folk aren't the cause. It's the same for alcohol on trains, in parks etc.

And clothes as well. 99% of crime is committed by the fully clothed. It’s getting out of hand and something needs to be done about it. It’s an epidemic. We won’t be safe until we’re all in the nudie.


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[overdrive]

We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

Your last point is a very good one as I’m really surprised by what you said in the first paragraph other than youth drinking which I can well believe. I managed a guy just out of school a few years ago and he said alcohol wasn’t a big thing in his generation. Cocaine was the poison of choice more so than alcohol according to him (not necessarily him himself).

[Ozyhibby]

We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.

I can quite believe that. I think there has been massive changes in the last 20 years. And it won’t be one big policy change that’s done it. It’s lots of little ones. Good news.


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[Mibbes Aye]

We drink less than most European nations, binge less. Our drinking levels have fallen fast since 2003. Youth Drinking is collapsing over the last ten years, so alcohol consumption will go down further.

But I'd bet Scots think we drink more and worse.


I can quite believe that. I think there has been massive changes in the last 20 years. And it won’t be one big policy change that’s done it. It’s lots of little ones. Good news.


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This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

[Ozyhibby]

This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

Is it possible that this could be a lagging indicator though? That the changes in behaviour of the young ones now will result in a future drop in deaths from misuse?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Is it possible that this could be a lagging indicator though? That the changes in behaviour of the young ones now will result in a future drop in deaths from misuse?


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It's a difficult one.

If we are talking about drinking amongst the general (young) population, it is a case of predicting whether behaviours or attitudes change over time. A popular topic on here is Scottish independence and I think most folk, if asked, would agree that younger voters are more inclined to vote Yes. If they voted that way then 2014 would have seen these new young voters plus the voters who were young in 1979 and it should have been a landslide! That's not backed up by any reliable data, I hasten to add, but illustrates potentially how behaviours in younger years do shift.

What is reliable data is that around problematic drinking amongst teenagers. If we were using European comparisons they would highlight that Scotland is really high, I think the Baltics lead the way on that front but Scotland isn't too far from the top. And there is enough public health evidence from longitudinal research to demonstrate that behaviours acquired at that young age are hard to shift.

Another variable is development in medicine generally - how we treat alcohol-specific disease and other alcohol-related conditions could easily extend life expectancy, albeit some of that living in ill-health. And cost of living might be seen as a counterweight to dangerous consumption but the reality is lots of anecdotal evidence of people prioritising alcohol rather than food, heating and everything else.

So the short answer is I would be wary of suggesting the figures will improve because of a perception that younger people drink less. If you think back to the early-mid nineties, we had a generation that was supposedly turning its back on alcohol in large numbers as rave culture embedded itself. Yet thirty years on, the death rate is massively higher and relatively stable.

The stats from the previous post were from rough memory but if anyone is interested in the data around this, Public Health Scotland provide loads of information and trend analysis on their website (about all health-related topics, not just drinking!)

[Hibernia&Alba]

Surely Bozo and his pals aren't so cynical? :cb

https://youtu.be/SL2-pGYFKOA

[Stairway 2 7]

This thread isn't specifically about alcohol misuse but comparing pro capita consumption across European nations misses the point when it comes to measuring harm.

The real story is alcohol-specific deaths. They rose 17% between 2019 and 2020. Potentially you could attribute the impact of the pandemic to that but alcohol-specific deaths relate to alcohol-specific conditions that generally develop over years, so we are talking about patterns of behaviour that predated the pandemic by a long chalk.

Alcohol-specific deaths have increased by 200% in the last forty years and increased most dramarically from the early nineties to around fifteen years ago. It's been a rough levelling-off of around 1,000 deaths each year since then. And that doesn't include deaths where alcohol misuse was merely a contributing factor to ill-health (or wasn't coded as alcohol-related when deaths are registered).

Dividing the amount of alcohol bought by the size of the population doesn't illustrate that Scotland has a genuine problem where a lot of people drink to beyond hazardous levels and beyond harmful levels and die at the rate of roughly three a day, every day, every week, every month and so on.

Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

[Mibbes Aye]

Alcohol related deaths changed the way they were recorded in the 2000s. That's why for decades before it always sat at around 400. Mental health alcohol related deaths ect were added so that's why it shot to 1400 in just a couple of years , things obviously didn't get over 3 times worse in a few years.



Like amount of alcohol drunk, binge drinking and teenage drinking, alcohol related deaths have dropped a huge amount since the 90s. From 1400s to 1000s they have been trickling about now. The pandemic year you obviously through out as that happened across the world.

Every measure has dropped a huge amount since the 90s, it will only get better over the next decade because each one effects the other.

If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

[Stairway 2 7]

If you can't get the basics right then it's hard to take your views seriously.

Alcohol-specific deaths started rising in 1992, not the 2000s

They didn't sit at 400 for decades before - there are only data sets going back twelve years prior.

Deaths haven't dropped a hige amount since the 1990s. They were higher in 2020 than any year in the 1990s.

And perhaps most importantly, you don't deem to grasp the distinction between alcohol-specific deaths and alcohol-related deaths. Alcohol-specific means that the cause of death, medically, is 100% attributable to alcohol i.e. very specific diseases caused by alcohol. Alcohol-related means alcohol played a contributory factor in the cause of death. Stats generally have alcohol-relateds as running between two and four times as high as alcohol-specific, but there is a general acceptance that there is under-reporting when it comes to registering deaths that have multiple attribution codes

25962


If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

[Mibbes Aye]

25962


If your going to be pedantic with dates then, it sat at around 400 until the 90s when they started changing how it was compiled. Phe says you can't compare post 2000 to pre , so I won't and its almost a quarter of a century so pointless anyway

Since the peak at the start of the century its came from 1400 to averaging around 1100 in the last 5 years. Its undeniably got better in the last 25 years. Add in overall alcohol consumption dropping , someone at hollyrood is doing something right in the last few decades

:faf:

I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? :greengrin Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? :greengrin Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

[Stairway 2 7]

:faf:

I'm starting to understand your posting style. Take exception if someone disagrees with you, get argumentative, if you get it wrong don't own it, instead shift to something else, and always, always try and get the last word. It's like trying to have a discussion with Boris Johnson or Donald Trump. Are you an obese man with ludicrous hair and a need to dissemble and lie? :greengrin Just kidding, you can have the last word if you like as this is all a bit circular and not really good, informed discussion.

Your first paragraph. If by 'pedantic' you mean 'correcting your errors' then yes, I am. Incidentally how did they change the compilation of the data? You do realise that they re-apply the metrics retrospectively, so that the data set is still comparing apples with apples?

when you say PHE say you can't compare post 2000 to pre 2000 re Scottish data that's news to me. Are you sure it wasn't a St Alban's player? :greengrin Anyway, we are talking Scottish data not PHE's data and PHS are confident in the validity of their data set going back to 1979. Otherwise it's a bit like saying "...Hibs win the Scottish Cup once every six years, honest guv, yeah, I'm only measuring from 2016 though"!! And that sort of all applies to your second paragraph as well, really. It's a shame.

I'd take the insult the wrong way if I wasn't mid 30s and in decent shape, but I'm sure your like arny. Phs obviously. It said they changed the way deaths were recorded so you can't directly compare.

You must agree there has been a massive drop in alcohol related deaths in the last 20 years with a small up tick recently.

I'd say it probably isn't fair to judge pre 1999 since the opening of Scots parliament. I'd go further and say its pointless before the snps 15 years as they have been in so long. Every metric you want is down in that time. I'm sure you'll agree they are doing an amazing job, although we have to keep an eye on the small rise.

Alcohol related deaths about a third down and alcohol consumed in total down 10%, since the snp. I bet it will continue thanks to youth Drinking going down

[SteveHFC]

Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

[Sir David Gray]

Alcohol ban kept in place for the summer.

I'm shocked...

[He's here!]

How did a thread called Scotrail become a debate about alcohol misuse?

Re the railways I see next week's strikes are going ahead. Selfish f****ers.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.ft.com/content/490d46e3-d4d8-4f2c-83d0-abb55aced77e

Rail union warns disruption could last all year after pay talks fail
Leader of RMT accuses government of blocking progress in negotiations

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.ft.com/content/490d46e3-d4d8-4f2c-83d0-abb55aced77e

Rail union warns disruption could last all year after pay talks fail
Leader of RMT accuses government of blocking progress in negotiations

A strike will suit the Tories down to the ground.


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[Stairway 2 7]

A strike will suit the Tories down to the ground.


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Maybe one but I don't think the mass strikes in many sectors that are rumoured will be good. People might just wake up that this is a **** show

[speedy_gonzales]

How did a thread called Scotrail become a debate about alcohol misuse?

Re the railways I see next week's strikes are going ahead. Selfish f****ers.

Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

[He's here!]

Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

Is this the train drivers striking

[Ozyhibby]

Clarification required!?!
There hasn't been a general railway strike since 1989.
The (NR) workers withdrawing labour after a legitimate ballot are doing so after not having any pay-rise for 30 months and not having a contractual bonus paid over the last two years.
Ignoring inflation, that's a real time paycut of 6% (average bonus = 3% of average NR mtce wage). Including inflation at CPI or RPI, then that's a big year on year pay cut.
And then if we choose to ignore a NET paycut to a workforce that worked (like many) throughout the pandemic, there's the attack on hard fought and agreed working conditions.
I'm sorry, but it's not the workers that are being selfish. God knows nobody wants to upset anyone else with a general strike but how else do they draw attention and action over such behaviour?

Tories will be happy to turn worker against worker.


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[speedy_gonzales]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

How many train drivers do Network Rail employ???
And why are nurses always the benchmark for pay rises?
And could you imagine industrial action taking place where nobody was inconvenienced?

This action is about folk fighting for fair recognition after 2+ years of pay freezes, faux credit for "pandemic cover" and a not unsurprising Tory attack on workers terms/conditions and working practices that will result in a less safe running of our railway.

[speedy_gonzales]

Tories will be happy to turn worker against worker.


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Agreed, classic play, in the race to the bottom, encourage workers to fight amongst each other rather than allow them to unite and fight the common problem.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

Try bankers the next time. The poor nurses are always used.

Next time I board a train, I'll be thankful that the staff are fully trained 😏 in all safety aspects and procedures to allow the traveling public to get from A to B.

Any watering down if any safety procedures is a red card from me.

Network rail can GTF.

[lucky]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61852047

Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff. The disruption this action will cause right across the UK, screwing up the plans of folk from all walks of life, is grossly out of proportion to the scale of their grievances.

I’m sure these rises would have been negotiated by the EMPLOYER and the union. I’m also sure that the EMPLOYER must have agreed these rises and were happy to agree it as their shareholders pocketed over £1b in dividends. The whole point of strike action is disruption, but it’s always the unions that get blamed rather than the bosses. Let’s be very clear the rail strikes are politically motivated not by the unions but by the Tory government.
ASLEF will be announcing the results of ballots in 9 other companies next month. Not one of these people will have had a pay rise in 3 years!
ASLEF have settled on London Underground (Lab mayor) MerseyRail (Lab Mayor) Nexus (Lab controlled authority) Scotrail (SNP controlled) and are still in talks on Transport for Wales. Yet every company that the Tories are in control off have failed to table a penny. So rather than attack workers look further behind the Daily Mail rhetoric and understand the workers case. If you’ve not had a rise join a union and fight back because Britain deserves a pay rise.

[ronaldo7]

When is the UK Gov going to step in and do something to stop the #toryrailstrikes

[Santa Cruz]

When is the UK Gov going to step in and do something to stop the #toryrailstrikes

Hopefully quickly. Took Scotgov several weeks to halt the threat of strike action from Scotrail. I thought this had now been resolved, it appears there were around 70 last min cancellations to yesterday's services due to staffing issues I think.

[Since90+2]

What do we think the chances are Lothian Buses will go on strike over pay? If that coincided with the festival, it would be an utter disaster for businesses.

[ronaldo7]

Hopefully quickly. Took Scotgov several weeks to halt the threat of strike action from Scotrail. I thought this had now been resolved, it appears there were around 70 last min cancellations to yesterday's services due to staffing issues I think.

It was actually a wave to the Tories asking the Scottish government to fix our issues last month when they're silent regarding this strike.

The businesses running the separate rail companies in England should up their game, and get it sorted.

[Callum_62]

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another underpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotiations closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another unpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotions closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

[danhibees1875]

The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

I've never seen nurses being brought up in such a way...

Bankers are getting 1.5%, train drivers should be happy with that.

https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/05/pay-inflation-banking

[ronaldo7]

I've never seen nurses being brought up in such a way...

Bankers are getting 1.5%, train drivers should be happy with that.

https://www.efinancialcareers.com/news/2022/05/pay-inflation-banking

You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

[Since90+2]

The nurses get it tight every time.

Why don't they use the bankers?

What are nurses getting tight?

[Since90+2]

You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

As far as I can see the only mentions of nurses on this thread are to say they are probably underpaid?

[danhibees1875]

You only have to read the thread to see nurses mentioned.

"mentioned" is where your argument falls down IMO.

They're not mentioned in a way that could be construed as "getting it tight" as you put it.

[Santa Cruz]

I've no issues at all with them striking

Always baffles me when the ordinary worker attacks folk for striking then uses another unpaid undervalued public sector to compare them against

Il be following the teachers pay negotions closley - EIS only told them to take the small increase now (meant to be last years rises) so it didn't get this years 10 percent negotions dragged down



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

What about undervalued private sector workers? They often work with less favourable contractual conditions than public sector workers. Take retail staff as an example, never stopped throughout the Pandemic, poor pay and conditions, subjected to abuse and aggression which is on the increase btw. A lot of workers in this sector are overseas workers, they're not aware of employment legislation and their rights. In my experience they often see joining a Union as a waste of their hard earned wage.

[ronaldo7]

"mentioned" is where your argument falls down IMO.

They're not mentioned in a way that could be construed as "getting it tight" as you put it.

The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

[hibsbollah]

I support them 100%, and as someone that uses the trains and enjoys it I hope they win and ensure the service doesn’t get even further ripped apart.

[Santa Cruz]

The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

Remind me, when the Glasgow City Council refuse workers took industrial action during COP26, was there an implication that Anas Sarwar was somehow stirring it for political motives? I'm not saying it was you who posted that, I honestly can't recall, but there was someone (pro SNP) making this suggestion. It's Gov's that are the cause of conquer and divide amongst public sector workers imo. Police 3% - rail workers 5%, that's avoidable if Gov's applied the same acceptable pay rise across the board.

[ronaldo7]

As far as I can see the only mentions of nurses on this thread are to say they are probably underpaid?

That's your take. :wink:

Mine is that they're been used in the post to say the RMT should be more like the nurses and accept lower wage offers.

[ronaldo7]

Remind me, when the Glasgow City Council refuse workers took industrial action during COP26, was there an implication that Anas Sarwar was somehow stirring it for political motives? I'm not saying it was you who posted that, I honestly can't recall, but there was someone (pro SNP) making this suggestion. It's Gov's that are the cause of conquer and divide amongst public sector workers imo. Police 3% - rail workers 5%, that's avoidable if Gov's applied the same acceptable pay rise across the board.

The refuse workers saw an opportunity to raise the profile of their case during COP26. It happens in all areas of life. Just like Anas saw a photo opportunity to go down the back alleys of his constituency to raise the point. Screaming Chris Mitchell was a bit OTT imo though.

I'd have rather seen the GMB Union support their women workers in their equal pay dispute in Glasgow instead of taking them to court.

Back on topic.

Support the RMT.

[danhibees1875]

The post at 215 says this... Train drivers have had pay rises totalling nearly 40 per cent over the last decade, way in excess of, say, nursing staff.

The Union and employer negotiated those deals over the 10 year period. Why should it be used to bash the railway workers now?

Why the need to bring nursing staff into a dispute about Rail workers. It's the tried and tested divide and conquer I'm seeing played out on my TV this morning.

The RMT are correct in looking after their workers, I just wish more unions would do likewise.

Nurses aren't getting it tight there IMO, but fair enough if that's the way you see it then that's the way you see it. :aok:

[Santa Cruz]

The refuse workers saw an opportunity to raise the profile of their case during COP26. It happens in all areas of life. Just like Anas saw a photo opportunity to go down the back alleys of his constituency to raise the point. Screaming Chris Mitchell was a bit OTT imo though.

I'd have rather seen the GMB Union support their women workers in their equal pay dispute in Glasgow instead of taking them to court.

Back on topic.

Support the RMT.

lol, Anas saw a photo opp...brilliant. FM totally camera shy eh.:wink:

Aye, back on track, all workers in every sector right across the UK deserve fair pay and conditions, I'm all for that.

[ronaldo7]

lol, Anas saw a photo opp...brilliant. FM totally camera shy eh.:wink:

Aye, back on track, all workers in every sector right across the UK deserve fair pay and conditions, I'm all for that.

I don't think she was invited. :greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

I don't think she was invited. :greengrin

cough, cough...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1513710/nicola-sturgeon-news-cop26-bin-workers-strike-scotland

[ronaldo7]

cough, cough...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1513710/nicola-sturgeon-news-cop26-bin-workers-strike-scotland

To the photo shoot. :greengrin

Well done though. :aok:

[Since90+2]

That's your take. :wink:

Mine is that they're been used in the post to say the RMT should be more like the nurses and accept lower wage offers.

Why doesn't that surprise me that you take it as a negative 😅

[ronaldo7]

Why doesn't that surprise me that you take it as a negative 😅

I don't.

I take it as a positive that the RMT have looked after their workers, and continue to do so. :na na:

[Since90+2]

I don't.

I take it as a positive that the RMT have looked after their workers, and continue to do so. :na na:

What's with the whole nurses getting it tight chat then? Literally nobody has done that so it's a rather bizarre take on it.

[ronaldo7]

What's with the whole nurses getting it tight chat then? Literally nobody has done that so it's a rather bizarre take on it.

The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

[Since90+2]

The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

On here and in the general public nurses are well respected and supported.

I think you're seeing things that aren't there to be honest.

[Stairway 2 7]

The nurses get it tight when they're rolled out as the group to be measured against. You've obviously not noticed. It happens regularly. :aok:

I think it's the opposite. Mps are getting this whilst nurses getting this ect, the last 2 years especially

[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.sky.com/story/barristers-become-latest-group-to-vote-for-strike-action-as-disruption-looms-12637273

Criminal barristers have become the latest group to vote for strike action as the government comes under intensifying pressure over pay demands.

The Criminal Bar Association, which represents lawyers prosecuting and defending those accused of crimes in England and Wales, said members had backed a plan for 14 days of action between 27 June and 22 July.