Roe vs Wade

[CropleyWasGod]

It looks as if Roe vs Wade is being overturned in the US.

Horrendous if that's the case IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

It looks as if Roe vs Wade is being overturned in the US.

Horrendous if that's the case IMO.

It is but if Americans want to support pro choice then they have to start voting for it. Relying on court interpretations of their constitution is not the way to run a country. They want it, then they need to put the democrats into power and make it law.


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[BroxburnHibee]

Getting more like Gilead every day.

[Kato]

Getting more like Gilead every day.Taliban like to live that way.

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[500miles]

I know its popular to lean on the misogyny angle on this, but I think it would also help us understand what's going on if we recognised that US politics is riddled with religious fundamentalism with an electorate more likely to believe in angels than evolution.

[Paul1642]

The Americans have been out rioting over what in my opinion is some pretty flimsy reasons over the last few years.

This however is absolutely shocking and should see men and women on the streets in their millions.

[CropleyWasGod]

Oklahoma have already banned abortion after 6 weeks.

With mid-term elections this year, this looks like being a major issue over the summer.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

2 in 3 Americans support the right to chose, it's nearly 3 in 4 of women yet a couple of geriatric judges will override that and 50 years of progress.
The system is simply not fit for purpose. I understand gay rights and even interracial marriage are being lined up next by the ultra conservatives.
This regression will filter into our politics and i'm fearful for the future I really am.

[CropleyWasGod]

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the leak has come from a Democrat,in order to stoke up resistance before the mid-terms. Smart move if so.

[hibsbollah]

The Americans have been out rioting over what in my opinion is some pretty flimsy reasons over the last few years.

Are you referring to the police murdering innocent black people?
Trump is a shoo-in for a second term the way things are going. Voter suppression, anti women legislation and anti immigrant rhetoric. It just keeps getting worse over there.

[bigwheel]

The Americans have been out rioting over what in my opinion is some pretty flimsy reasons over the last few years.

This however is absolutely shocking and should see men and women on the streets in their millions.

What flimsy reasons ??

[greenginger]

It looks as if Roe vs Wade is being overturned in the US.

Horrendous if that's the case IMO.

I don’t think it’s an end to abortion in the US. It could be the end of the federal law on abortion and every state would have to bring in their own law.
Some no doubt will bring in strict rules on timing , others will repeat the existing rules.

I’m sure their won’t be any rules stopping a woman crossing state lines for an abortion if she decided that’s what she wanted.

[Stairway 2 7]

2 in 3 Americans support the right to chose, it's nearly 3 in 4 of women yet a couple of geriatric judges will override that and 50 years of progress.
The system is simply not fit for purpose. I understand gay rights and even interracial marriage are being lined up next by the ultra conservatives.
This regression will filter into our politics and i'm fearful for the future I really am.

Personally think 2 in 3 and 3 in 4 is really low. Religious nutters over there

[CropleyWasGod]

I don’t think it’s an end to abortion in the US. It could be the end of the federal law on abortion and every state would have to bring in their own law.
Some no doubt will bring in strict rules on timing , others will repeat the existing rules.

I’m sure their won’t be any rules stopping a woman crossing state lines for an abortion if she decided that’s what she wanted.

Your last line. Many women simply can't afford that,particularly when many of the red States are grouped together. That's discriminatory in itself.

[Glory Lurker]

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if the leak has come from a Democrat,in order to stoke up resistance before the mid-terms. Smart move if so.

Another possibility is that it was a anti-abortionist wanting to put pressure on the judges not to change their minds.

[Oscar T Grouch]

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"
Whilst the fastest growing ‘religious’ group in the USA are atheists and a huge majority of Americans support some form of gun control, the minorities that lobby hardest and with the bigger budgets set the laws of this country. American democracy has always been paper thin, it seems the tears can no longer be hidden. Trump flooded the federal courts with unqualified clearly biased judges and with the death of RBG at the end of his term he managed to get a ‘Republican’ majority in the Scotus. All designed to grease the pole and make vital precedents like Roe vs Wade disappear. Watch the continued attack on the 15th amendment gather pace.

[lapsedhibee]

I know its popular to lean on the misogyny angle on this, but I think it would also help us understand what's going on if we recognised that US politics is riddled with religious fundamentalism with an electorate more likely to believe in angels than evolution.

Next target, if they get away with this, contraception.

[500miles]

Next target, if they get away with this, contraception.

God wants strong Christian soldiers.

[lapsedhibee]

Many women simply can't afford that, particularly when many of the red States are grouped together.

Creating opportunities for enterprising souls to set up off-grid services within those states.

[Lendo]

Roe versus Wade was about so much more than abortion. It about an individuals right to choose. It removed laws in backwards states that forbid a white women living unmarried with a man or allowing interracial marriage. This could open Pandora’s Box for all sorts of mental Christian Fundamentalist bull**** in states like Texas.

[Smartie]

Are you referring to the police murdering innocent black people?
Trump is a shoo-in for a second term the way things are going. Voter suppression, anti women legislation and anti immigrant rhetoric. It just keeps getting worse over there.

I’d have thought Trump would have been a shoo in but would this kind of thing not work against him, redress the balance a wee bit?

Implementing (or repealing) laws that a significant majority of people are in favour of will surely not persuade any more floating voters that more power to the republicans is the answer?

[CropleyWasGod]

Creating opportunities for enterprising souls to set up off-grid services within those states.

Back to the 50's. It's what we want. Watching the cricket on the village green, drinking warm beer etc etc.

[Ozyhibby]

Roe versus Wade was about so much more than abortion. It about an individuals right to choose. It removed laws in backwards states that forbid a white women living unmarried with a man or allowing interracial marriage. This could open Pandora’s Box for all sorts of mental Christian Fundamentalist bull**** in states like Texas.

Texas is becoming more liberal these days as it gets richer and it’s cities get bigger. Christian fundamentalists are a tolerated minority just about everywhere. If the push too hard they might find that tolerance severely tested.


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[Ozyhibby]

I’d have thought Trump would have been a shoo in but would this kind of thing not work against him, redress the balance a wee bit?

Implementing (or repealing) laws that a significant majority of people are in favour of will surely not persuade any more floating voters that more power to the republicans is the answer?

I’m not even sure Trump is a shoo in for the republican nomination.


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[lapsedhibee]

Back to the 50's. It's what we want. Watching the cricket on the village green, drinking warm beer etc etc.

Don't know what the current fuss about people being too poor to nourish their children properly is all about. Surely it's an advantage to be undersized, scrambling up and down the inside of chimneys for a living? :confused:

[Pretty Boy]

It's a bizarre thing because despite attending Mass at least once a week and being actively involved in a few other things my Parish does I can't recall ever having a conversation with anyone there about abortion, contraception, homosexuality etc etc. I think there is a diocesan pro life Rosary advertised once a month but that's about the sum of it and I'm not aware of anyone who actually attends it. The most active groups, again speaking at a Parish level, tends to be focused on things like supporting refugees, the homeless, a school and skills centre in Malawi and so on. You know, actually being nice.

I'm not an idiot nor blind to the faults of the Church as an establishment, and the faults of other faiths and denominations. A huge element of control is at work and many of the viewpoints are outdated and indeed dangerous. However my own experience is of a real disconnect on such issues between said establishment and the laity (and on some issues even the clergy at the lower levels). The obsession with what people get up to in their bedrooms and what they do with their own bodies really doesn't extend to a lot of people who live with a faith. I've long believed that a lot of people seek out religion as a way to justify or ratify their own social conservatism. It's arguably different in the US were fundamentalism has a far stronger foothold than many other nominally Christian countries. Of course there are fringe groups here who spew out their poison to a captive audience as well.

For me it's simple; abortion exists. It has existed for millennia, there is evidence it was a practice used by the ancient Egyptians. So we have 2 choices really. We make abortion a safe option and provide the necessary support for women before abortion to make the correct decision for them and we provide practical and emotional support afterwards. Or we drive it back underground where it will still exist, as it has existed throughout history, and we accept all the risks that come with that. Even if one finds the actual act and consequence of abortion unpalatable it's still a no brainer surely? From a Christian perspective the Bible makes no explicit mention of abortion, Old or New Testament, the entire corpus of Biblical law and all the things it explicitly forbids does not mention abortion once. Further the closest you may get is Exodus 21, which actually makes a clear distinction between the killing of a baby who is 'fully formed' and one who is not (in the context of injuring the mother). The punishment for the former is death, the latter is financial or put another way one is equatable to murder, the other is not. I'm not sure that those seeking religious justification for supporting abortion need to go back to ancient Judeo-Christian texts though, the ministry of Jesus himself was fairly straightforward and the basic message of that in it's simplest form should allow people to make peace with their own morality on the issue, it's broadly similar to the conclusion a majority of atheists, agnostics, anti-theists or even us modernist, liberal Catholics come to; basic empathy and compassion will usually stand you in good stead.

[ElginHibbie]

I’m sure their won’t be any rules stopping a woman crossing state lines for an abortion if she decided that’s what she wanted.

It was discussed in Missouri, though it didn't actually come to anything

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/19/travel-abortion-law-missouri-00018539

A slippery slope, believe some on the Supreme Court insisted they had no intent on overturning Row vs Wade and turns out that was bs, so can understand why a lot of people will be worried this is only the beginning of this stuff. They could well be coming after gay marriage next.

Separation of church and state my arse

[s.a.m]

It is but if Americans want to support pro choice then they have to start voting for it. Relying on court interpretations of their constitution is not the way to run a country. They want it, then they need to put the democrats into power and make it law.


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To be fair, they generally do, but the electoral college and the structure of the senate makes it disproportionately difficult to create a functioning majority out of it.
The Republicans have only won the popular vote once since 1988, but they've had an extra two presidencies because of the EC. Even now, with their casting vote majority, the Democrats struggle to get anything through the Senate because anything important seems to require a super-majority (and even where a simple majority suffices, two of their senators seem to be deliberately trying to obstruct their party.)

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t think it’s an end to abortion in the US. It could be the end of the federal law on abortion and every state would have to bring in their own law.
Some no doubt will bring in strict rules on timing , others will repeat the existing rules.

I’m sure their won’t be any rules stopping a woman crossing state lines for an abortion if she decided that’s what she wanted.

Some states planning precisely that:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/03/us-abortions-travel-wave-of-restrictions

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not even sure Trump is a shoo in for the republican nomination.


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He'll be very difficult to stop in the same way that the Tories won't have anyone not rabidly pro-Brexit. The Republican party has an energised base of nutters and they will pick the nominee, regardless of whether they think that nominee will actually win the election.

[hibsbollah]

To be fair, they generally do, but the electoral college and the structure of the senate makes it disproportionately difficult to create a functioning majority out of it.
The Republicans have only won the popular vote once since 1988, but they've had an extra two presidencies because of the EC. Even now, with their casting vote majority, the Democrats struggle to get anything through the Senate because anything important seems to require a super-majority (and even where a simple majority suffices, two of their senators seem to be deliberately trying to obstruct their party.)

I’ve been reading about some of these Democratic senators, unbelievable stuff, Joe Mancin of West Virginia, funded by a range of ex Trump lobbyists and tech and fossil fuel industries (WV is a mining state), he’s voting against his own party’s Build Back Better and Green New Deal which effectively makes Biden toothless. Even if Biden had a senate majority he would lose because of these ‘bought and paid for’ fake Democrats like Mancin. He’s actually campaigning for Republicans!

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/01/31/joe-manchin-campaign-gets-big-donations-from-corporations-executives.html

Join the dots and you’ll see that by campaigning against leftists in the democratic nominations for rust belt states like WV Ohio and Penn, (and who were vastly more popular with the DP locally…Michael moores recent documentary very good on this), the DP is reaping what they sow in terms have now having senators who are voting WITH Trump and against ‘moderates’ like Biden’s own programmes!

[neil7908]

Texas is becoming more liberal these days as it gets richer and it’s cities get bigger. Christian fundamentalists are a tolerated minority just about everywhere. If the push too hard they might find that tolerance severely tested.


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Unfortunately Trump and his cronies have fundamentally shifted the equation. Districts are being gerrymandered in Republican favour, courts are being packed with hard right religious fundamentalists and the way the Senate is set up means it doesn't matter what the majority want, Wyoming carries as much weight as California, even thought it has a fraction of its population. And the Supreme Court is now locked in as a Republican majority for decades to come.

My partner is American but we've been over here for 10 years. So this hits home quite strongly as she still has all her family in the US, and it's clear as day that things are sliding dangerously backwards.

I personally don't think American can hold together as one nation in the long term - its too divided. I know it sounds like hyperbole but I can honestly see a split into two countries in the decades ahead.

[SHODAN]

It's amazing how when the Democrats have control of all three systems of government they are apparently incapable of doing literally anything, yet when the Republicans hold any semblance of power all this disgusting right wing legislation gets railroaded through without any trouble at all.

The Democrats are not the left's friend. They exist to prevent any progress to the left.

[neil7908]

I don’t think it’s an end to abortion in the US. It could be the end of the federal law on abortion and every state would have to bring in their own law.
Some no doubt will bring in strict rules on timing , others will repeat the existing rules.

I’m sure their won’t be any rules stopping a woman crossing state lines for an abortion if she decided that’s what she wanted.

You are correct but a look at the map of states that will likely ban abortion shows they are pretty much all grouped in the middle and South of the country. And bear in mind how big the US is. So if you need an abortion and live in say rural Louisiana, the nearest legal clinic will literally be hundreds of miles away. Remember also that Americas don't get annual leave as standard, so if you are poor it will be almost impossible to afford and secure the time needed to access a legal abortion.

So there will be women accessing underground and dangerous abortions, or having children they don't want and can't afford.

[hibsbollah]

Texas is becoming more liberal these days as it gets richer and it’s cities get bigger. Christian fundamentalists are a tolerated minority just about everywhere. If the push too hard they might find that tolerance severely tested.


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I'm not sure that's true. Depends how you define 'liberal'. Certainly Texans are still voting Red in both houses and for the presidency and have been since the 1980s. Looking at district by district, there hasnt been that much of a shift from Blue to Red, in fact its gone the other way, 2 districts went Republican and only 1 (the 7th district) has gone Democrat. If there was a shift due to urban growth in Houston and Dallas and white flight to the suburbs that would be reflected in voting. and of course, the Republican representatives themselves are increasingly coming from the hysterical wing of the GOP, endorsed by Trump.

Texas Presidential Election Voting History - 270toWin (https://www.270towin.com/states/Texas)

It is and has always been a state with a lot of racism, a lot of guns and a lot of **** you attitude to people from everywhere else since the days of the Alamo. Texans (including many Scots emigres) built America by stealing a lot of cows from the Spanish and then building a culture on eating a lot of beef products. Genius:aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

In this connection, Northern Ireland still doesn't have any abortion services, despite the law being changed (actually, imposed by Westminster) a couple of years ago.

With the upcoming Assembly elections, the law might be repealed.

[Pretty Boy]

In this connection, Northern Ireland still doesn't have any abortion services, despite the law being changed (actually, imposed by Westminster) a couple of years ago.

With the upcoming Assembly elections, the law might be repealed.

Sinn Fein have got themselves in a bit of a mess with regards abortion in NI. Whilst the UUP, DUP and TUV have galvanised in their opposition to more liberal access, both Sinn Fein and the SDLP seem to have ended up in a weird middle ground. Abstaining from votes rather than taking a genuine pro choice stance.

For a party running on a platform that aims to tackle social and economic issues this time around, Irish reunification must NOT be mentioned, they really need to nail their colours to the mast. They are still talking in needlessly broad terms when speaking about their beliefs on who should and should not be able to access abortion.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sinn Fein have got themselves in a bit of a mess with regards abortion in NI. Whilst the UUP, DUP and TUV have galvanised in their opposition to more liberal access, both Sinn Fein and the SDLP seem to have ended up in a weird middle ground. Abstaining from votes rather than taking a genuine pro choice stance.

For a party running on a platform that aims to tackle social and economic issues this time around, Irish reunification must NOT be mentioned, they really need to nail their colours to the mast. They are still talking in needlessly broad terms when speaking about their beliefs on who should and should not be able to access abortion.

Thanks PB.

That's not good news for the pro-choice lobby, and (IMO) for women in general.

I hate when parties play political games with moral issues like this.

[Colr]

I know its popular to lean on the misogyny angle on this, but I think it would also help us understand what's going on if we recognised that US politics is riddled with religious fundamentalism with an electorate more likely to believe in angels than evolution.

I suspect they are less numerous than they are noisy.

This issue may bring voters out for the democrats against the right who are so keen on scrapping roe/wade.

This could turn out to be a massive own goal for the GOP.

[Pretty Boy]

I suspect they are less numerous than they are noisy.

This issue may bring voters out for the democrats against the right who are so keen on scrapping roe/wade.

This could turn out to be a massive own goal for the GOP.

I think your 1st point is key and was what I was getting at earlier.

Polling suggests that among most mainstream Christian denominations in the US support for legalised abortion outweighs opposition. The exception is the white evangelical protestant movement where support hovers around 20% in favour of stricter legalisation. That compares to 56% of Catholics, 60% of other white Protestants, 64% of other black Protestants and 83% of the religiously unaffiliated. That's for legal abortion in ALL cases btw. If you add in the usual caveats about health, fetal deformity etc it goes up again, quite significantly in some cases. Speaking specifically about Roe v Wade, 61% of white evangelical protestants support overturning the ruling. By comparison that's 28% for Catholics and other black Protestants and 26% for other white Protestants.

It's a minority but a noisy, influential and downright dangerous one.

[Colr]

I think your 1st point is key and was what I was getting at earlier.

Polling suggests that among most mainstream Christian denominations in the US support for legalised abortion outweighs opposition. The exception is the white evangelical protestant movement where support hovers around 20% in favour of continued legalisation. That compares to 56% of Catholics, 60% of other white Protestants, 64% of other black Protestants and 83% of the religiously unaffiliated. That's for legal abortion in ALL cases btw. If you add in the usual caveats about health, fetal deformity etc it goes up again, quite significantly in some cases. Speaking specifically about Roe v Wade, 61% of white evangelical protestants support overturning the ruling. By comparison that's 28% for Catholics and other black Protestants and 26% for other white Protestants.

It's a minority but a noisy, influential and downright dangerous one.

Interesting figure. A wide ranging study in Europe suggested that around 20% of the population are, essentially, fascists.

Maybe 1 in 5 people are just canutes and if we bear this in mind, we can avoid being hoodwinked by them.

[greenginger]

I suspect they are less numerous than they are noisy.

This issue may bring voters out for the democrats against the right who are so keen on scrapping roe/wade.

This could turn out to be a massive own goal for the GOP.

Its not the GOP who are going to overturn roe/wade it’s the Supreme Court.

Its what individual states put in its place that will give the voters choices.

[Stairway 2 7]

Some in the supreme Court are denying it. But if its true then I'm sure it would have been a democrat that leaked. Most ardent pro lifers would be safe Republicans. But it will anger many undecideds

[hibsbollah]

The Times editorial today fully in support of ‘giving the states the right to choose’ whether to allow abortion.

Anyone kidding themselves that the extremists that want to roll back our established freedoms are only in America, (the 20% of the population that are basically canutes, I’m liking this as a demographic identifier likesay) well they’re kidding themselves. We don’t actually live in a liberal democracy anymore.

[Ozyhibby]

The Times editorial today fully in support of ‘giving the states the right to choose’ whether to allow abortion.

Anyone kidding themselves that the extremists that want to roll back our established freedoms are only in America, (the 20% of the population that are basically canutes, I’m liking this as a demographic identifier likesay) well they’re kidding themselves. We don’t actually live in a liberal democracy anymore.

Democracy doesn’t mean that terrible opinions cease to exist. That said, we only live in a partial democracy.


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[hibsbollah]

Democracy doesn’t mean that terrible opinions cease to exist. That said, we only live in a partial democracy.


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The Times is the mainstream. Terrible opinions are now the mainstream.

[LewysGot2]

Move in Arizona to ban condoms and other contraception :rolleyes:

Republican Senate candidate Blake Masters wants ruling Griswold v Connecticut overturned - the right for married couples to buy and use contraception…

What a world we are in just now. Afghanistan moving back under extreme rules for girls and women and the so-called leaders of the Western world moving towards forced pregnancy and the spread of STDs as a consequence of ideology, too.

The motivation for the latter seems to be debated - good old fashioned misogyny wrapped in religion or good old fashioned racism where the white population is waning or good old fashioned economics and protection of the haves and the need to produce a labour force in the future. Grim doesn’t cover it.

[Paul1642]

America really is a weird place compared to the rest of the west.

[Hibernia&Alba]

When Trump was able to put three of his picks on the SC it was inevitable this would happen. Polls consistently show that 70 per cent of Americans support the right of women to an abortion; however, the SC is now 6-3 very conservative. The striking down of Roe V Wade won't make abortion illegal in America of course, but will allow each state to make its own laws. In reality a number of Republican states will make it illegal, others might severely tighten access. Women in states where abortion is prohibited will have to cross state lines to a place where it remains legal. Thus women in some states will have more rights than women in others - equality under the law gone.

This is part of a wider agenda: women are to be controlled and their lives circumscribed, and abolition of Roe V Wade is the thin end of the wedge. There is a toxic religious fundamentalism on the American right, containing strong elements of misogyny, homophobia and racism. They won't stop at abortion; Republican states are already going after access to contraception, for example. The same tactic used to overturn abortion rights will be used for federal LGBT protections: remove the national law via a right wing SC and throw it back to the states, meaning very conservative states could make homosexuality a crime. Even issues like interracial marriage are part of the agenda. These right wing states are true believers in Old Testament justice.

[Ozyhibby]

When Trump was able to put three of his picks on the SC it was inevitable this would happen. Polls consistently show that 70 per cent of Americans support the right of women to an abortion; however, the SC is now 6-3 very conservative. The striking down of Roe V Wade won't make abortion illegal in America of course, but will allow each state to make its own laws. In reality a number of Republican states will make it illegal, others might severely tighten access. Women in states where abortion is prohibited will have to cross state lines to a place where it remains legal. Thus women in some states will have more rights than women in others - equality under the law gone.

This is part of a wider agenda: women are to be controlled and their lives circumscribed, and abolition of Roe V Wade is the thin end of the wedge. There is a toxic religious fundamentalism on the American right, containing strong elements of misogyny, homophobia and racism. They won't stop at abortion; Republican states are already going after access to contraception, for example. The same tactic used to overturn abortion rights will be used for federal LGBT protections: remove the national law via a right wing SC and throw it back to the states, meaning very conservative states could make homosexuality a crime. Even issues like interracial marriage are part of the agenda. These right wing states are true believers in Old Testament justice.

Relying on a small group of old judges to try and interpret a document made 230odd year ago is a terrible way to run a country. If 70% of American are pro choice then they need to pass laws to make it happen and stop whining about the Supreme Court.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Relying on a small group of old judges to try and interpret a document made 230odd year ago is a terrible way to run a country. If 70% of American are pro choice then they need to pass laws to make it happen and stop whining about the Supreme Court.


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But the ultra-conservatives have been smart, spotting the path to overriding public opinion: target winning the state legislatures and governorships. Get a right wing Supreme Court established then bombard the SC with legal challenges on their favourite issues. They got lucky, in that Trump was able get three SC picks in one term, that's when they saw their chance to get Roe V Wade overturned. They have had a strategy in place and have been pursuing it for several decades now.

It won't be illegal in all states, but Republican states will be able to outlaw it, meaning location will dictate a woman's right to abortion. If you're a woman in New York, nothing will change; but if you're a woman in Alabama, too bad.

[Ozyhibby]

But the ultra-conservatives have been smart, spotting the path to overriding public opinion: target winning the state legislatures and governorships. Get a right wing Supreme Court established then bombard the SC with legal challenges on their favourite issues. They got lucky, in that Trump was able get three SC picks in one term, that's when they saw their chance to get Roe V Wade overturned. They have had a strategy in place and have been pursuing it for several decades now.

It won't be illegal in all states, but Republican states will be able to outlaw it, meaning location will dictate a woman's right to abortion. If you're a woman in New York, nothing will change; but if you're a woman in Alabama, too bad.

If America want to give women the right to choose then they can do so through Congress. That’s what it’s there for, to change laws. They can make new law that over rules anything the supreme courts decides.


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[lapsedhibee]

When Trump was able to put three of his picks on the SC it was inevitable this would happen. Polls consistently show that 70 per cent of Americans support the right of women to an abortion; however, the SC is now 6-3 very conservative. The striking down of Roe V Wade won't make abortion illegal in America of course, but will allow each state to make its own laws. In reality a number of Republican states will make it illegal, others might severely tighten access. Women in states where abortion is prohibited will have to cross state lines to a place where it remains legal. Thus women in some states will have more rights than women in others - equality under the law gone.

This is part of a wider agenda: women are to be controlled and their lives circumscribed, and abolition of Roe V Wade is the thin end of the wedge. There is a toxic religious fundamentalism on the American right, containing strong elements of misogyny, homophobia and racism. They won't stop at abortion; Republican states are already going after access to contraception, for example. The same tactic used to overturn abortion rights will be used for federal LGBT protections: remove the national law via a right wing SC and throw it back to the states, meaning very conservative states could make homosexuality a crime. Even issues like interracial marriage are part of the agenda. These right wing states are true believers in Old Testament justice.

The Stepford Wives will become a documentary.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If America want to give women the right to choose then they can do so through Congress. That’s what it’s there for, to change laws. They can make new law that over rules anything the supreme courts decides.


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Does congress have the power to do that? After all, the three branches of government are co-equal.

[Ozyhibby]

Does congress have the power to do that? After all, the three branches of government are co-equal.

Yes, they can change laws.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Yes, they can change laws.


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Does that also mean a president can re-implement Roe v Wade via Executive Order?

Who has the final say under the American system, and it wouldn't the issue just keep bouncing back and forth between the different branches of government?

[Ozyhibby]

Does that also mean a president can re-implement Roe v Wade via Executive Order?

Who has the final say under the American system, and it wouldn't the issue just keep bouncing back and forth between the different branches of government?

I would think it would need to go through Congress and the President sign it but could be totally wrong. Either way, it can be done. It just needs for people to vote for it. Americans need to stop running to judges asking what their laws are and start making and clarifying them themselves.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Like I said, removing abortion is the thin end of the wedge. After such a huge victory for them, the next target is contraception. They call it a 'pro life agenda', which contains several strands. Strangely, they all seem to support the death penalty. :rolleyes:


https://youtu.be/w0gd3i87ygs

[Hibrandenburg]

I would think it would need to go through Congress and the President sign it but could be totally wrong. Either way, it can be done. It just needs for people to vote for it. Americans need to stop running to judges asking what their laws are and start making and clarifying them themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOh sweet Jesus, please no.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Always worth a watch

https://youtu.be/fmMvsAjCkog

[stoneyburn hibs]

Overturned
At least half the states will enforce it, horrible.
Parody Country.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Overturned
At least half the states will enforce it, horrible.
Parody Country.

And overturned without even guaranteeing access to abortion in cases of rape and/or incest. Some states will even prevent women and girls getting a termination in those horrendous circumstances. Hard to believe actually in 2022.

Thirteen states have so far implemented trigger laws that will blanket ban abortion, even in cases of rape and incest: Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wyoming.

It is anticipated that by the end of this year up to twenty-six states could have the same blanket ban. After that the anti-abortion campaign will try to get a federal ban.

[Hibs4185]

Backward country. For being the ‘leader’ of the free world, it’s a disgrace

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/834b0967b8b886c579c256fec4024c76.jpg

An already bad situation about to get worse. A majority of Americans hate this decision but they need to vote democrat if they want to fix it.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Louisiana to look into banning the morning after pill and iud's. There will be no exemptions for rape or incest, sick ****s. If someone is raped by their dad they will have to bring up their brother.

What a country.

It's not about life or there would be gun control and universal health care. The rich will afford to travel to another state

[Jones28]

They will go for gay rights next.

Meanwhile in Missouri a 13 year old girl could be raped by her step dad and have to carry his baby to term.

This will embolden anti abortion nut jobs here now too.

[Ozyhibby]

These ‘pro-life’ states also seem quite keen on executing people.[emoji849]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/6d0649118ea134c179e181e4ff0017f9.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/7db9cf7e5fad10f03dd585082ec01921.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/834b0967b8b886c579c256fec4024c76.jpg

An already bad situation about to get worse. A majority of Americans hate this decision but they need to vote democrat if they want to fix it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is there a story behind that graph that I’m not picking up on?

They appear to be a horrendous outlier there. Why is that?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Is there a story behind that graph that I’m not picking up on?

They appear to be a horrendous outlier there. Why is that?

US healthcare system?

[Smartie]

US healthcare system?

I guess so.

America is not the place to be if you're poor.

[Moulin Yarns]

I guess so.

America is not the place to be if you're poor.

The US lack of health care unless you have lots of dollars!!!

Hope it's not coming over here!

[tamig]

Backward country. For being the ‘leader’ of the free world, it’s a disgrace

I find it difficult to understand why so many people here still seem to be in love with the place and continue to holiday there.

[speedy_gonzales]

I find it difficult to understand why so many people here still seem to be in love with the place and continue to holiday there.

It's a bloody big place, from East to West, North to South.
So much to see from the natural environs to the man made wonders and arts.
Politically, it's all over the place and home to many faiths but the loudest voices from within seem to be (in my opinion) from the "nutters".
Apart from a short visit to NYC, I've only been to Florida (numerous times), North to South, Atlantic to Gulf coast. The majority of folk I met were not pro-life, not pro-gun, not pro-MAGA, but apparently that's the demographic for Florida.
Maybe I was lucky or maybe like-minded folk attract each other.
However, as hypocritical as this may sound, I struggle to understand how folk can go visit Dubai etc.
Ironically, Dubai is probably the more liberal of the two places to visit just now 🤔

[Smartie]

It's a bloody big place, from East to West, North to South.
So much to see from the natural environs to the man made wonders and arts.
Politically, it's all over the place and home to many faiths but the loudest voices from within seem to be (in my opinion) from the "nutters".
Apart from a short visit to NYC, I've only been to Florida (numerous times), North to South, Atlantic to Gulf coast. The majority of folk I met were not pro-life, not pro-gun, not pro-MAGA, but apparently that's the demographic for Florida.
Maybe I was lucky or maybe like-minded folk attract each other.
However, as hypocritical as this may sound, I struggle to understand how folk can go visit Dubai etc.
Ironically, Dubai is probably the more liberal of the two places to visit just now ��

America is held ransom by various minorities of nutters, individuals and small groups.

By and large, it's a great place and they're great people. The vast majority of a vast country are great.

I fear for it a bit over the next few years though, for several reasons. And that's not good news for us.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/834b0967b8b886c579c256fec4024c76.jpg

An already bad situation about to get worse. A majority of Americans hate this decision but they need to vote democrat if they want to fix it.


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They can vote democrat until the cows come home but you will need to wait for a couple of the right wingers on the supreme justice benches to die first and hope that when they do go, the Dems are in power at the time.
Given that Trump got a couple of relatively young justices appointed we could be looking at decades before the balance tips the other way.

[Hibernia&Alba]

They can vote democrat until the cows come home but you will need to wait for a couple of the right wingers on the supreme justice benches to die first and hope that when they do go, the Dems are in power at the time.
Given that Trump got a couple of relatively young justices appointed we could be looking at decades before the balance tips the other way.

Expand the SC. Nowhere is it written that the Court must have nine Justices. Biden could expand it to thirteen or fifteen and appoint his judges. It seems the only logical move in a situation where the GOP has rigged the court. They blocked Obama's solitary nominee for eleven months then rushed through all three of Trump's picks. Around 80 per cent of Americans support Roe v Wade, but it's minority rule by authoritarian theocrats; religious fundamentalists who are determined to remove the separation of church and state and will twist the law into whatever configuration is necessary to do that. For example, Roe v Wade was settled law, precedent upon precedent had been set, but those five Justices yesterday said it can be thrown out just because their 18th century constitution doesn't explicitly use the word abortion.

[hibsbollah]

Expand the SC. Nowhere is it written that the Court must have nine Justices. Biden could expand it to thirteen or fifteen and appoint his judges. It seems the only logical move in a situation where the GOP has rigged the court. They blocked Obama's solitary nominee for eleven months then rushed through all three of Trump's picks. Around 80 per cent of Americans support Roe v Wade, but it's minority rule by authoritarian theocrats; religious fundamentalists who are determined to remove the separation of church and state and will twist the law into whatever configuration is necessary to do that. For example, Roe v Wade was settled law, precedent upon precedent had been set, but those five Justices yesterday said it can be thrown out just because their 18th century constitution doesn't explicitly use the word abortion.

Exactly. The Democrats have been trying to fight a fair fight while Trump gerrymanders the judiciary. Time to fight back.

[7 Up]

American women who have faithfully voted for the Democrats over the years must be absolutely livid about the fecklessness of that party. Everyone knew this news was coming but the Democrats don't seem to have any strategy prepared at all. Only a few weeks ago Nancy Pelosi was supporting a pro-life candidate over a pro-choice one. If I was American I'd be spitting blood about all this.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220625/a999809d92c51612a21b139ede03201f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Amazing 3 minutes doug Stanhope on abortion and recycling. Abortion is green
https://youtu.be/YkgDhDa4HHo

[lapsedhibee]

American women who have faithfully voted for the Democrats over the years must be absolutely livid about the fecklessness of that party. Everyone knew this news was coming but the Democrats don't seem to have any strategy prepared at all. Only a few weeks ago Nancy Pelosi was supporting a pro-life candidate over a pro-choice one. If I was American I'd be spitting blood about all this.

Same way that people here are absolutely livid about Labour causing the rail strikes, I suppose.

[7 Up]

Same way that people here are absolutely livid about Labour causing the rail strikes, I suppose.
Inaction and complacency from the Democrats are absolutely a part of this story. Roe v. Wade could have been codified long ago.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Inaction and complacency from the Democrats are absolutely a part of this story. Roe v. Wade could have been codified long ago.

Even if Congress passed abortion rights into law, this SC would immediately strike it down as unconstitutional. It isn't within the power of a president to pass an Executive Order either. I think the only around this will be to expand the SC, which is entirely necessary, given the Court is way to the right of public opinion on many issues. Trump's ability to fill three vacancies has made this SC radically right wing. They are not conservatives - cautious with Opinions and reluctant to overturn precedent - they are radical interventionists, as their Roe v Wade decision shows. The traditional GOP appeal to be fearful of 'activist judges' only applies to those judges who would expand rights. When it comes to radical right wing interventionist judges who remove rights, they are all for it.

[Iain G]

America is ****ed and society there seems to be falling apart, mind you not sure if we are far behind with Boris running this place further into the mud. It's depressing that in this modern age that people are taking away freedom of choice from people about their own life and bodies ☹️

[cameronw-hfc]

Gay rights and minorities are next. America is a s***hole right now. I don't buy that it's a minority either, they're mental. Too many nutcases for the country to ever truly evolve.

Truly detestable people over there at the moment and it's a shame because there's some stunning places and some great people, but they get overshadowed by religious nutcases.

The most mental part of this is that they've convinced people there's truly two sides to this argument, there isn't. There's a right and a wrong and it's pretty blatant to everyone with morals.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is what some Republicans euphemistically call 'states rights.' Under the guise of being champions of federalism, it enables Republican states to roll back civil rights; the Reconstruction era for the twenty-first century. Roe v Wade being overturned is just the start of the process.

[Just_Jimmy]

Gay rights and minorities are next. America is a s***hole right now. I don't buy that it's a minority either, they're mental. Too many nutcases for the country to ever truly evolve.

Truly detestable people over there at the moment and it's a shame because there's some stunning places and some great people, but they get overshadowed by religious nutcases.

The most mental part of this is that they've convinced people there's truly two sides to this argument, there isn't. There's a right and a wrong and it's pretty blatant to everyone with morals.Exactly. It's standing on the right or wrong side of history. There's no debate to be had. Its just blatantly wrong.

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[MWHIBBIES]

This is what some Republicans euphemistically call 'states rights.' Under the guise of being champions of federalism, it enables Republican states to roll back civil rights; the Reconstruction era for the twenty-first century. Roe v Wade being overturned is just the start of the process.

Thing is, this has been coming for years now. Mitch McConnell and his gang blocking the Merrick Garland nomination for 18 months and sadly RBG dying during trump's term are what caused this. The Dems missed the chance to stack the court in their favour for years and the GOP didn't. It's set up for another 30 years of this, as you rightly say this is just the beginning.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/caslostwings/status/1540378260231561216?t=UeUsDu4pA0f3Lad0q0P1jQ&s=19

A good thread from a woman whose mother couldn't look after her and was adopted.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SJohnsdottire/status/1540797614945439744

Unbelievable thread or a women's story of getting an abortion in America. It gets more shocking with every tweet

[wookie70]

https://twitter.com/caslostwings/status/1540378260231561216?t=UeUsDu4pA0f3Lad0q0P1jQ&s=19

A good thread from a woman whose mother couldn't look after her and was adopted.
That thread is truly heart breaking and I wonder if someone is going to try and make some money out of this. More kids to market and a lot of competition with very little current supply. I have two adopted kids. Money should never pass hands, it isn't a purchase and every check that can be should be carried out.

[Moulin Yarns]

That thread is truly heart breaking and I wonder if someone is going to try and make some money out of this. More kids to market and a lot of competition with very little current supply. I have two adopted kids. Money should never pass hands, it isn't a purchase and every check that can be should be carried out.

Stop it, I've got wet eyes.

[21.05.2016]

Horrendous decision, actually heartbreaking tbh.

Claim to be protecting the lives of unborn children but what about the children they idly stand back and allow to be gunned down and murdered in their classrooms by their precious guns. "pro-life"? Guns are the most anti-life thing out there!

The country is an absolute joke, completely trapped in the dark ages. A dark day for woman's rights and humanity in general.

[Kato]

Horrendous decision, actually heartbreaking tbh.

Claim to be protecting the lives of unborn children but what about the children they idly stand back and allow to be gunned down and murdered in their classrooms by their precious guns. "pro-life"? Guns are the most anti-life thing out there!

The country is an absolute joke, completely trapped in the dark ages. A dark day for woman's rights and humanity in general.https://twitter.com/dklappin/status/1541189717982593024?t=o1tweTsMSpNwfBp-H2M24w&s=19


No tone whatsoever.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[21.05.2016]

https://twitter.com/dklappin/status/1541189717982593024?t=o1tweTsMSpNwfBp-H2M24w&s=19


No tone whatsoever.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Yep, not a clue regarding the irony in that.

Absolute madness.

[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/dklappin/status/1541189717982593024?t=o1tweTsMSpNwfBp-H2M24w&s=19


No tone whatsoever.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkSome of their elected representatives are just off the scale nutters.

https://twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/1540858029285019648?t=SyqaZ6CHgXwJyRpoUmlZaA&s=19

[heretoday]

Nothing worse than listening to the patronising spiel of an anti-abortionist who claims to know better than the individual woman as to what's good for her.

This decision will lead to more back street abortions, more unwanted children being taken into care and more women suffering mental and physical ill health.

[21.05.2016]

Just to be clear Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean you are pro-abortion. It simply means that you agree a woman should have the choice. It means you agree that the option should be available so a woman can make the choice she feels is right for her life and autonomy over her own body.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just to be clear Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean you are pro-abortion. It simply means that you agree a woman should have the choice. It means you agree that the option should be available so a woman can make the choice she feels is right for her life and autonomy over her own body.

An important point you make. It's entirely consistent for someone to believe abortion is morally wrong and not something they would ever do, yet at the same time believe others should be allowed to make their own decision. Nothing wrong with that. Personal conscience always plays a role in such emotive issues. Whether one holds a moral objection or not, for me, it's the idea of removing that choice from women and saying they should be forced to give birth against their will that is barbaric.

[He's here!]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/20237599.snp-msp-john-mason-backs-roe-v-wade-abortion-ruling/

Another headache for Sturgeon I imagine.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/20237599.snp-msp-john-mason-backs-roe-v-wade-abortion-ruling/

Another headache for Sturgeon I imagine.

Not really. He’s in a minority of one in the SNP group and his views are well known. He’s not a front line figure and only ever makes the headlines on this issue.


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[7 Up]

Not really. He’s in a minority of one in the SNP group and his views are well known. He’s not a front line figure and only ever makes the headlines on this issue.


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Kate Forbes has made some anti-abortion noises in the past.

[Smartie]

Will anti abortion opinions not be fairly widespread amongst people from certain Christian backgrounds... and therefore probably fairly evenly spread throughout all the political parties?

Not sure why this should be any more of a big deal for Sturgeon than any other political leader.

[SHODAN]

Kate Forbes has made some anti-abortion noises in the past.

If Forbes becomes SNP leader I won't be voting for them.

[Pretty Boy]

Will anti abortion opinions not be fairly widespread amongst people from certain Christian backgrounds... and therefore probably fairly evenly spread throughout all the political parties?

Not sure why this should be any more of a big deal for Sturgeon than any other political leader.

I posted some stats either further back in this thread or another thread on this topic that showed a majority of Christian Americans (with the exception of white evangelical protestants) were against Roe V Wade being overturned and a similar majority backed the right to abortion in all cases, an even bigger majority when the usual extreme caveats such as rape or incest were thrown into the mix.

If that's the case in the US I'd imagine a decent majority of Christians here will also be pro choice. I can't find any figures to back that up but it seems a fair assumption based on the American figures.

You have to take into account using the extreme Christian right in the US or the wee frees here as a benchmark is like judging the entrity of Islam based on the preaching of Abu Hamza. It's one of those issues which there is most dissent among the laity when it comes to the position of the Catholic Church as well.

[Mon Dieu4]

Can blame politicians and the Supreme Court but if you look at the last 10 years worth of Gallup Polls then the Pro Choice Versus Pro Choice stats have been roughly 50/50 up until last month when Pro Choice was at 55% and Pro Life 39%, that means there is about at least 100m Americans quite happy with it which is even more depressing

I can't see how the divides in all walks of life there can be mended right now, total basket case

[Hibernia&Alba]

As Catholic bishops across America welcomed the overturning of Roe v Wade, I thought one of the placards held by a woman outside the Supreme Court was very apt: "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries."

:top marks

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/20237599.snp-msp-john-mason-backs-roe-v-wade-abortion-ruling/

Another headache for Sturgeon I imagine.

******** hope he gets voted out.

[Stairway 2 7]

As Catholic bishops across America welcomed the overturning of Roe v Wade, I thought one of the placards held by a woman outside the Supreme Court was very apt: "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries."

:top marks

That's brilliant.

[He's here!]

Will anti abortion opinions not be fairly widespread amongst people from certain Christian backgrounds... and therefore probably fairly evenly spread throughout all the political parties?

Not sure why this should be any more of a big deal for Sturgeon than any other political leader.

Of course. The Catholic Church believes abortion is wrong in any circumstances and I know people who fully endorse that belief.

As H&A says, anyone is entitled to take a moral standpoint on the issue. It's whether you think you have the right to interfere in other people's choices that causes the problems.

Does Sturgeon need to get involved? I don't know. I'd have thought any protests at Scottish abortion clinics are likely to be nothing like those in the US (I don't recall seeing any comparable footage that's for sure) but if there's genuine intimidation going on then perhaps action is required.

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course. The Catholic Church believes abortion is wrong in any circumstances and I know people who fully endorse that belief.

As H&A says, anyone is entitled to take a moral standpoint on the issue. It's whether you think you have the right to interfere in other people's choices that causes the problems.

Does Sturgeon need to get involved? I don't know. I'd have thought any protests at Scottish abortion clinics are likely to be nothing like those in the US (I don't recall seeing any comparable footage that's for sure) but if there's genuine intimidation going on then perhaps action is required.

I know of quite a few women who have felt anxious about the protests outside Sandyford clinic in Glasgow. And that's not necessarily women accessing abortion services.

1 woman feeling anxious (allied to.what may be a stressful time anyway) is 1 too many IMO.

[Smartie]

Of course. The Catholic Church believes abortion is wrong in any circumstances and I know people who fully endorse that belief.

As H&A says, anyone is entitled to take a moral standpoint on the issue. It's whether you think you have the right to interfere in other people's choices that causes the problems.

Does Sturgeon need to get involved? I don't know. I'd have thought any protests at Scottish abortion clinics are likely to be nothing like those in the US (I don't recall seeing any comparable footage that's for sure) but if there's genuine intimidation going on then perhaps action is required.

I'd imagine Sturgeon will have fairly strong opinions of her own on the subject but that they will be very much at odds with what the "Wee Free" brigade might think.

Not sure how controversial that situation is though. It's another one of those divisive subjects where people are going to have to agree to disagree about it and continue to work together towards whatever common goals they've got and I expect it will be as true for the SNP as it is all the other parties.

[Pretty Boy]

Of course. The Catholic Church believes abortion is wrong in any circumstances and I know people who fully endorse that belief.

As H&A says, anyone is entitled to take a moral standpoint on the issue. It's whether you think you have the right to interfere in other people's choices that causes the problems.

Does Sturgeon need to get involved? I don't know. I'd have thought any protests at Scottish abortion clinics are likely to be nothing like those in the US (I don't recall seeing any comparable footage that's for sure) but if there's genuine intimidation going on then perhaps action is required.

I think any protest at a site where abortions are carried out should be unlawful. It's an experience that is potentially traumatic and emotional and anything that risks worsening that should not be happening. I'm not advocating that pro life supporters don't have a platform to air their views but making any attempt to interact with women about to undergo an abortion should not be the way to do it and if that can't be achieved through common decency and empathy then it should become a legal issue.

I'm genuinely unsure what form these protests take in Scotland and who attends them. My experience, as a practicing Catholic, is that there are pro life events organised at various levels by the Church. Off the top of my head I can think of an annual pro life Mass in Edinburgh led by the Archbishop and the Rosary on the Coast events which encompasses both anti abortion rhetoric and anti euthanasia. I've never attended any and I know only one person who has. The lady in question has a child with Down's Syndrome and felt extreme pressure to terminate her pregnancy when the child was diagnosed. She views the whole debate as an issue of eugenics. I don't agree with her stance but I can, almost, understand it.

There is an ongoing synodal process going on in the Catholic Church at the moment. Usually Synods are restricted to the clergy, usually senior, and some well connected laity. This one is seeking views from every Parish in the world which are then collated at Diocesan level and sent on to the Vatican. As a Catholic dissatisfied with the position of the Church on a whole range of issues I felt obligated to attend the events organised in my Parish. My main contention is that on matters of abortion, homosexuality, transgender, euthanasia and the like the Church should keeps it's nose out. I was a bit concerned my views would be a bit out of step but, certainly in the groups I worked with, there was plenty common ground. The Church has to apologise unequivocally every time it is asked to when discussing abuse, the Church has to change it's stance on divorce, the Church has to be more welcoming, the Church has to be more ecumenical, the Church has to apologise for it's rhetoric around LGBTQI and likewise with abortion were some of the points that saw majority support. Of course I accept the views expressed in a Parish in Edinburgh will differ from large swathes of the rest of the Church. A quick glance at the horrendous Catholic Truth blog or listening to the firebrand stuff from the SSPX types who use traditionalism as a front for their own bigotry tells you that. It was an interesting experience though and certainly made me feel like my socially liberal views weren't as out there as I feared. I don't expect much to change of course. I sense another Humane Vitae moment. Pope Paul VI had a real chance to change the Church's course on contraception, homosexuality and other issues back in the late 60s but coming so soon after the reforms of Vatican II his bottle crashed and here we are.

It genuinely pains me to see the gleeful and triumphalist reaction to the Roe v Wade decision by some Catholics and other Christians alike. It's so lacking in empathy, it's nasty and it completely ignores the basic message of the canonical Gospels. It's shameful and if those individuals truly believe in the judgement of God then they should be very concerned.

[Sergio sledge]

Personally, and I understand that this is probably massively influenced by my faith, I don’t believe that abortion is right. I believe that life begins at the point of conception and that all human life is equal and precious, no matter what stage of development or what physical/mental challenges they may face in their life.

However, and it is a big however, I also don’t believe that criminalising abortion is the way to go. When women make that decision it is often taken from a place of desperation and often the last resort for a lot of them based on emotional, physical, financial and health grounds. Making them criminals is just kicking the vulnerable when they are down, which is the antithesis to what I believe a Christian should do and how a Christian should treat people.

If Christians want to reduce abortions and ultimately get to a point where there are no abortions then it must be done through education on family planning and contraception, making contraception more easy to access (I don’t think that’s as much of an issue here as in the USA to be fair) and supporting women and families emotionally, physically and financially where necessary. We all have to step up, stop the judgement, put our money where our mouth is (metaphorically and literally) and above all treat people with compassion. No point in me sitting in my ivory tower moralising over a vast section of society if I’m not willing to come down and support the people who need it, and I include offering my home to children in need through fostering or adoption.

Would I call myself pro-life, I’m reluctant to because of the perceived negative connotations of that phrase, but ultimately it is what I am. I know there will be holes and hypocrisy in my thoughts and opinions on this and other moral issues, but I firmly believe that capital punishment is wrong, I firmly believe that guns should be banned, I’m a pacifist and I believe in the right to life of all humans no matter what. Whilst on the one hand I wouldn’t criminalise abortions, I do ultimately want to see us get to the point as a society where there is no need for abortions to happen.

[Lendo]

Of course. The Catholic Church believes abortion is wrong in any circumstances and I know people who fully endorse that belief.

As H&A says, anyone is entitled to take a moral standpoint on the issue. It's whether you think you have the right to interfere in other people's choices that causes the problems.

Does Sturgeon need to get involved? I don't know. I'd have thought any protests at Scottish abortion clinics are likely to be nothing like those in the US (I don't recall seeing any comparable footage that's for sure) but if there's genuine intimidation going on then perhaps action is required.

I believe a lot of the funding for the abortion protests in the UK come from American activists trying to spread their sad little doctrine across the Atlantic.

[ElginHibbie]

Personally, and I understand that this is probably massively influenced by my faith, I don’t believe that abortion is right. I believe that life begins at the point of conception and that all human life is equal and precious, no matter what stage of development or what physical/mental challenges they may face in their life.

However, and it is a big however, I also don’t believe that criminalising abortion is the way to go. When women make that decision it is often taken from a place of desperation and often the last resort for a lot of them based on emotional, physical, financial and health grounds. Making them criminals is just kicking the vulnerable when they are down, which is the antithesis to what I believe a Christian should do and how a Christian should treat people.

If Christians want to reduce abortions and ultimately get to a point where there are no abortions then it must be done through education on family planning and contraception, making contraception more easy to access (I don’t think that’s as much of an issue here as in the USA to be fair) and supporting women and families emotionally, physically and financially where necessary. We all have to step up, stop the judgement, put our money where our mouth is (metaphorically and literally) and above all treat people with compassion. No point in me sitting in my ivory tower moralising over a vast section of society if I’m not willing to come down and support the people who need it, and I include offering my home to children in need through fostering or adoption.

Would I call myself pro-life, I’m reluctant to because of the perceived negative connotations of that phrase, but ultimately it is what I am. I know there will be holes and hypocrisy in my thoughts and opinions on this and other moral issues, but I firmly believe that capital punishment is wrong, I firmly believe that guns should be banned, I’m a pacifist and I believe in the right to life of all humans no matter what. Whilst on the one hand I wouldn’t criminalise abortions, I do ultimately want to see us get to the point as a society where there is no need for abortions to happen.

While I don't agree with you, I respect this view point a lot more than some of the stuff you hear, saw this Twitter thread for example (https://twitter.com/Bang2write/status/1540680053385678849?s=20&t=zoh1NROPprLZqjBVKYvzSw). The "pro life" movement is largely anything but, they are purely pro birth and once the child has been born they have no interested in child unless they can slag it and/or the parents for being a drain on society

Out of interest, you say want to point to society where there is no need for abortions, so what are you thoughts on case of rape and incest? Believe these are generally seen as exceptions in areas of the world with stricter rules around it, but seems like in US some are pushing to not even allow those anymore... abortions that are needed to save the mother's life will even be a step too far for some I would imagine

[Pretty Boy]

Personally, and I understand that this is probably massively influenced by my faith, I don’t believe that abortion is right. I believe that life begins at the point of conception and that all human life is equal and precious, no matter what stage of development or what physical/mental challenges they may face in their life.

However, and it is a big however, I also don’t believe that criminalising abortion is the way to go. When women make that decision it is often taken from a place of desperation and often the last resort for a lot of them based on emotional, physical, financial and health grounds. Making them criminals is just kicking the vulnerable when they are down, which is the antithesis to what I believe a Christian should do and how a Christian should treat people.

If Christians want to reduce abortions and ultimately get to a point where there are no abortions then it must be done through education on family planning and contraception, making contraception more easy to access (I don’t think that’s as much of an issue here as in the USA to be fair) and supporting women and families emotionally, physically and financially where necessary. We all have to step up, stop the judgement, put our money where our mouth is (metaphorically and literally) and above all treat people with compassion. No point in me sitting in my ivory tower moralising over a vast section of society if I’m not willing to come down and support the people who need it, and I include offering my home to children in need through fostering or adoption.

Would I call myself pro-life, I’m reluctant to because of the perceived negative connotations of that phrase, but ultimately it is what I am. I know there will be holes and hypocrisy in my thoughts and opinions on this and other moral issues, but I firmly believe that capital punishment is wrong, I firmly believe that guns should be banned, I’m a pacifist and I believe in the right to life of all humans no matter what. Whilst on the one hand I wouldn’t criminalise abortions, I do ultimately want to see us get to the point as a society where there is no need for abortions to happen.

Some interesting points.

One thing I have read repeatedly over the last few days is something hinted at in your post. Those who are the most vocally 'pro life' are also among the most likely to shame mothers who may find themselves in a situation that isn't societally accepted as being conductive to good parenthood. 'You're still a baby yourself' the the nicer end of the spectrum to 'slut' or 'whore' at the other. Ultimately if one wishes to be pro life then you have to be willing to be non judgemental and supportive when that life is born into the world.

I read one Twitter thread that saw a lady who had had an abortion say she had repeatedly told people who chastised her choice that she simply had no support. 'Oh I would have supported you if I'd known you then' was the stock reply. So she sent them all information and links to groups that supported young families, single mothers, disadvantaged babies etc etc and said go support them and show me you have done it. The response was either anger and blocking or just nothing. Easy to offer support in a hypothetical scenario when it fits and argument, harder to put their money (or time) where their mouth was.

I resonate with a lot of what you say in your post and I respect the honesty to put your head above the parapet on such an emotive topic. I think a lot of people probably fall into the category of desiring a situation where abortion is available but not required (obviously there are always going to be cases where abortion is a necessity for physical or emotional reasons but you know what I mean).

[lapsedhibee]

Personally, and I understand that this is probably massively influenced by my faith, I don’t believe that abortion is right. I believe that life begins at the point of conception and that all human life is equal and precious, no matter what stage of development or what physical/mental challenges they may face in their life.

However, and it is a big however, I also don’t believe that criminalising abortion is the way to go. When women make that decision it is often taken from a place of desperation and often the last resort for a lot of them based on emotional, physical, financial and health grounds. Making them criminals is just kicking the vulnerable when they are down, which is the antithesis to what I believe a Christian should do and how a Christian should treat people.

If Christians want to reduce abortions and ultimately get to a point where there are no abortions then it must be done through education on family planning and contraception, making contraception more easy to access (I don’t think that’s as much of an issue here as in the USA to be fair) and supporting women and families emotionally, physically and financially where necessary. We all have to step up, stop the judgement, put our money where our mouth is (metaphorically and literally) and above all treat people with compassion. No point in me sitting in my ivory tower moralising over a vast section of society if I’m not willing to come down and support the people who need it, and I include offering my home to children in need through fostering or adoption.

Would I call myself pro-life, I’m reluctant to because of the perceived negative connotations of that phrase, but ultimately it is what I am. I know there will be holes and hypocrisy in my thoughts and opinions on this and other moral issues, but I firmly believe that capital punishment is wrong, I firmly believe that guns should be banned, I’m a pacifist and I believe in the right to life of all humans no matter what. Whilst on the one hand I wouldn’t criminalise abortions, I do ultimately want to see us get to the point as a society where there is no need for abortions to happen.


Some interesting points.

One thing I have read repeatedly over the last few days is something hinted at in your post. Those who are the most vocally 'pro life' are also among the most likely to shame mothers who may find themselves in a situation that isn't societally accepted as being conductive to good parenthood. 'You're still a baby yourself' the the nicer end of the spectrum to 'slut' or 'whore' at the other. Ultimately if one wishes to be pro life then you have to be willing to be non judgemental and supportive when that life is born into the world.

I read one Twitter thread that saw a lady who had had an abortion say she had repeatedly told people who chastised her choice that she simply had no support. 'Oh I would have supported you if I'd known you then' was the stock reply. So she sent them all information and links to groups that supported young families, single mothers, disadvantaged babies etc etc and said go support them and show me you have done it. The response was either anger and blocking or just nothing. Easy to offer support in a hypothetical scenario when it fits and argument, harder to put their money (or time) where their mouth was.

I resonate with a lot of what you say in your post and I respect the honesty to put your head above the parapet on such an emotive topic. I think a lot of people probably fall into the category of desiring a situation where abortion is available but not required (obviously there are always going to be cases where abortion is a necessity for physical or emotional reasons but you know what I mean).

I never get the feeling that there are Christians in the US like you two. I suppose there must be, though everything on the newsreels suggests otherwise. Problem with the newsreels, or problem with the US, a dunno.

[Stairway 2 7]

I never get the feeling that there are Christians in the US like you two. I suppose there must be, though everything on the newsreels suggests otherwise. Problem with the newsreels, or problem with the US, a dunno.

There will be millions. Its a problem with the news reels and one not then them getting power also. I know a lad from Afghanistan, he's not a screaming fanatic like you see on sky news.

[lapsedhibee]

There will be millions. Its a problem with the news reels and one not then them getting power also. I know a lad from Afghanistan, he's not a screaming fanatic like you see on sky news.

No trouble conceiving of a reasonable Afghan believer. Afghans don't allow gunning down schoolchildren for fun, even girls who shouldn't be at the school. The US though, those voxpops with people who didn't need a vaccine against covid because ...

[Smartie]

I never get the feeling that there are Christians in the US like you two. I suppose there must be, though everything on the newsreels suggests otherwise. Problem with the newsreels, or problem with the US, a dunno.

In a country of 300 odd million?

They will be in the majority.

America is a melting pot of all sorts of different ideas, nationalities, opinions and faiths, who have spent the country’s entire history learning how to get along. The vast majority manage it fine.

The news is full of those who can’t or won’t.

States like New York and California or places where there are loads of people of Hispanic, Italian or Irish origin will be more likely to have a more open mind. Or at least will be grappling with the rights and wrongs of a complex moral dilemma.

It’s no surprise that to fill the news it is best to go to certain states to find certain people with a certain viewpoint.

[Stairway 2 7]

No trouble conceiving of a reasonable Afghan believer. Afghans don't allow gunning down schoolchildren for fun, even girls who shouldn't be at the school. The US though, those voxpops with people who didn't need a vaccine against covid because ...

That's a perfect example. The US had a higher vaccine uptake than Germany for example and much higher than many like most of Eastern Europe. But US nutters are in the news more. Probably due to fox and cnn being tabloid crap

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1541778555088011264?t=6yZVj9Hhc7om9bKAyff_Lw&s=19

A domestic example of utter bampottery.

Remember when the like of Bill Cash was one of a tiny minority of anti-EU Tory MP. Skip a decade or so and its the norm.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

I never get the feeling that there are Christians in the US like you two. I suppose there must be, though everything on the newsreels suggests otherwise. Problem with the newsreels, or problem with the US, a dunno.

The American religious right is the biggest single block in the Republican Party today, with around forty million people identifying as 'evangelical'. They are overwhelmingly white, anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-gun, pro-Trump. They have been infiltrating Republican politics since the 1970s. In many ways it subverts Christianity, presenting Jesus as a pro-war, pro-gun alpha male. It's Christian Nationalism in effect: Jesus was like a Kansan farmer. It's really bizarre, co-opting religion for political ends.

A wee overview of the Christian right in Amercia:


https://youtu.be/whV8heFHXoQ

[Haymaker]

There will be millions. Its a problem with the news reels and one not then them getting power also. I know a lad from Afghanistan, he's not a screaming fanatic like you see on sky news.

The problem is many of these people are "single issue voters". I have many friends who vote republican because "Democrats raise my taxes" and will then say "I don't agree with all the other stuff but taxes are my issue."

[Hibernia&Alba]

The problem is many of these people are "single issue voters". I have many friends who vote republican because "Democrats raise my taxes" and will then say "I don't agree with all the other stuff but taxes are my issue."

They are trying to distance themselves from the consequences of their actions. It's all very well saying they only vote Republican for taxes, but that means they are willing to vote away women's reproductive rights, support crazy gun laws, attacks upon everybody's civil rights, trashing of the environment etc etc in exchange for a few extra dollars.

Tell them that :agree:

[Haymaker]

They are trying to distance themselves from the consequences of their actions. It's all very well saying they only vote Republican for taxes, but that means they are willing to vote away women's reproductive rights, support crazy gun laws, attacks upon everybody's civil rights, trashing of the environment etc etc in exchange for a few extra dollars.

Tell them that :agree:

I have, they still vote for it.

Mind you, a friend of mine ran for mayor of my small town, pop roughly 20,000 and he was constantly asked what he was going to do about 2A and abortion rights.

Seriously wrong some people.

[Stairway 2 7]

GaviBegtrup
A 10-year-old girl is raped. The State forces her to remain pregnant and tells her to consider it an “opportunity.”

This isn’t Iran. This isn’t Gilead. This isn’t hypothetical.

This happened today in Ohio

https://eu.cincinnati.com/story/news/2022/07/01/ohio-girl-10-among-patients-going-indiana-abortion/7788415001/

[Hibernia&Alba]

GaviBegtrup
A 10-year-old girl is raped. The State forces her to remain pregnant and tells her to consider it an “opportunity.”

This isn’t Iran. This isn’t Gilead. This isn’t hypothetical.

This happened today in Ohio

https://eu.cincinnati.com/story/news/2022/07/01/ohio-girl-10-among-patients-going-indiana-abortion/7788415001/

Such tragedies are the inevitable result of overturning the abortion law. That poor child had to cross state lines to Indiana to get an abortion after being raped; but Indiana is now also going to tighten its laws following the SC ruling. Such cases are going to be commonplace. Women with money will either cross state lines or pay to have a doctor break the law; poorer women will have to do the best they can.

If the anti-abortion lobby eventually succeeds in getting a complete federal ban, the ramifications will be appalling.

[Colr]

Such tragedies are the inevitable result of overturning the abortion law. That poor child had to cross state lines to Indiana to get an abortion after being raped; but Indiana is now also going to tighten its laws following the SC ruling. Such cases are going to be commonplace. Women with money will either cross state lines or pay to have a doctor break the law; poorer women will have to do the best they can.

If the anti-abortion lobby eventually succeeds in getting a complete federal ban, the ramifications will be appalling.

Yeh, but will it change the way they do politics? Like gun control, it looks mental to us, but if they vote for right wing loons, maybe they want this. Looks like a culture in a downward spiral, frankly.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220718/545b859b95e4d80e3dd77a6d93ca3507.jpg


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[Lendo]

Read today that in Mississippi a women can’t divorce her abusive husband whilst pregnant and must wait until her the baby is born. Being pregnant doesn’t count as having a baby in this instance.

But abortion is now also illegal as “life begins at conception”.

Two very different interpretations of the law, in the same state, both designed to control a women, just in different ways.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220718/545b859b95e4d80e3dd77a6d93ca3507.jpg


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It was introduced in 2021 and didn't make it past the committee stage.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Read today that in Mississippi a women can’t divorce her abusive husband whilst pregnant and must wait until her the baby is born. Being pregnant doesn’t count as having a baby in this instance.

But abortion is now also illegal as “life begins at conception”.

Two very different interpretations of the law, in the same state, both designed to control a women, just in different ways.

That's horrific beyond belief, the land of the free.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Republican politician who supported abortion ban meets the consequences of his actions:


https://youtu.be/eJXwUxhVUdc

[JimBHibees]

The American religious right is the biggest single block in the Republican Party today, with around forty million people identifying as 'evangelical'. They are overwhelmingly white, anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-gun, pro-Trump. They have been infiltrating Republican politics since the 1970s. In many ways it subverts Christianity, presenting Jesus as a pro-war, pro-gun alpha male. It's Christian Nationalism in effect: Jesus was like a Kansan farmer. It's really bizarre, co-opting religion for political ends.

A wee overview of the Christian right in Amercia:


https://youtu.be/whV8heFHXoQ

Interesting and disturbing in equal measure.

[s.a.m]

Interesting and disturbing in equal measure.

I listened to an interesting audiobook by a historian about the rise of the religious right in America (One Nation Under God - Kruse), whose theory is that the US wasn't particularly religious, and the big upturn in religiosity in politics and institutions etc..., was not so much to do with a reaction to the perceived threat of communism, as others suggest, and a lot to do with the business community's response to Roosevelt's New Deal following the depression (where he described the introduction of welfare and the regulation of business as the Christian thing to do). He describes how they strategically set about trying to reclaim the moral high ground and defeat regulation by aligning Christianity and faith with free enterprise and patriotism and the military and freedom in general.

[JimBHibees]

I listened to an interesting audiobook by a historian about the rise of the religious right in America (One Nation Under God - Kruse), whose theory is that the US wasn't particularly religious, and the big upturn in religiosity in politics and institutions etc..., was not so much to do with a reaction to the perceived threat of communism, as others suggest, and a lot to do with the business community's response to Roosevelt's New Deal following the depression (where he described the introduction of welfare and the regulation of business as the Christian thing to do). He describes how they strategically set about trying to reclaim the moral high ground and defeat regulation by aligning Christianity and faith with free enterprise and patriotism and the military and freedom in general.

Strange movement being so apparently tied to religion with many of the values appearing to be the opposite of many of the mainstream religious teachings.

[s.a.m]

Strange movement being so apparently tied to religion with many of the values appearing to be the opposite of many of the mainstream religious teachings.

Yeah. Looking at the US religious right from the outside, I've wondered if - consciously or unconsciously - it's basically just evolved out of a need for people to justify behaviour / beliefs that they kind of know are 'difficult'. So it was interesting to read a theory that the movement was a deliberate attempt to make the previously vilified business community sound virtuous, and to justify campaigning against any kind of wealth redistribution. I don't know enough about the subject to say whether or not he's onto something, but he makes an interesting case

[grunt]

It is genuinely dangerous to travel to a state with an abortion ban if you're pregnant. Doctors may refuse to provide care until you are on the brink of death. I know conservative media insists these horror stories are fake, but I promise they are all too real.

A DC woman who went to Ohio for her brother's wedding was denied miscarriage treatment even though her fetus had no heartbeat and she was filling up diapers with blood. She passed out in a tub & nearly died

https://t.co/TyYmf7hKyy