Nhs

[Ozyhibby]

An issue I do agree with the Spectator on.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nhs-is-failing-us-all

There are better models out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

An issue I do agree with the Spectator on.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nhs-is-failing-us-all

There are better models out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes there is a better model. Fund it properly.

The oldest trick in the Tory book; starve a public resource of funding so it can’t deliver services properly and gets public approbation, then suggest an ‘alternative’ which involves flogging the family silver to speculators that you and your parents and grandparents paid taxes for.

The only other ‘model’ on the table at the moment is the American one, just look at MPs declaration of interests and who’s got their ear.

You have to experience the US healthcare system to know how bad it is. The single biggest cause of bankruptcy is being unable to afford being sick. I’ve got a friend with cancer who was well paid and successful in her field, can’t work, has lost her insurance and has sold her house to pay her bills. She’s now destitute and will die sooner than she should in poverty. I don’t even see the point debating with anyone who thinks the US model is the way to go.

If you don’t back the NHS you’ll have a US system before you know where you are. And that’s exactly what the likes of the ****ing ****bags that are behind The Spectator want.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes there is a better model. Fund it properly.

The oldest trick in the Tory book; starve a public resource of funding so it can’t deliver services properly and gets public approbation, then suggest an ‘alternative’ which involves flogging the family silver to speculators that you and your parents and grandparents paid taxes for.

The only other ‘model’ on the table at the moment is the American one, just look at MPs declaration of interests and who’s got their ear.

You have to experience the US healthcare system to know how bad it is. The single biggest cause of bankruptcy is being unable to afford being sick. I’ve got a friend with cancer who was well paid and successful in her field, can’t work, has lost her insurance and has sold her house to pay her bills. She’s now destitute and will die sooner than she should in poverty. I don’t even see the point debating with anyone who thinks the US model is the way to go.

If you don’t back the NHS you’ll have a US system before you know where you are. And that’s exactly what the likes of the ****ing ****bags that are behind The Spectator want.

Absolutely this. There may be better models in Europe but this is all about a Tory-Spiv carve up.

See https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-how-uk-s-powerful-right-wing-think-tanks-and-conse/

The "Economics Editor" of the Speccy is Kate Andrews (regular Beeb RW talking head) who also happens to be a former Associate Director of the IEA and Head of Comms at the Adam Smith Institute.

[Sergio sledge]

Yes there is a better model. Fund it properly.

The oldest trick in the Tory book; starve a public resource of funding so it can’t deliver services properly and gets public approbation, then suggest an ‘alternative’ which involves flogging the family silver to speculators that you and your parents and grandparents paid taxes for.

The only other ‘model’ on the table at the moment is the American one, just look at MPs declaration of interests and who’s got their ear.

You have to experience the US healthcare system to know how bad it is. The single biggest cause of bankruptcy is being unable to afford being sick. I’ve got a friend with cancer who was well paid and successful in her field, can’t work, has lost her insurance and has sold her house to pay her bills. She’s now destitute and will die sooner than she should in poverty. I don’t even see the point debating with anyone who thinks the US model is the way to go.

If you don’t back the NHS you’ll have a US system before you know where you are. And that’s exactly what the likes of the ****ing ****bags that are behind The Spectator want.

Did you read the article? It specifically says that the US system "would be a crazy model to imitate."

It's not right to just say that the NHS isn't being funded properly, we are about mid table in terms of funding as a %age of GDP out of OECD countries, https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SHA and there are countries below us in funding that are out performing us. It would be madness to not look at other countries' systems and try to work out how we can improve ours to match or exceed the outcomes they have.

We need to be able to have this discussion without people immediately going to the absolute extreme outcome and shouting "look at America, that's what we'll turn into." They are a complete basket case spending absolute fortunes on healthcare with terrible outcomes.

There is certainly a middle ground we could find, like other European countries have found where we can make the health service better for all, whilst maintaining the universal, free at point of use healthcare ethos of the NHS.

[Ozyhibby]

Absolutely this. There may be better models in Europe but this is all about a Tory-Spiv carve up.

See https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-how-uk-s-powerful-right-wing-think-tanks-and-conse/

The "Economics Editor" of the Speccy is Kate Andrews (regular Beeb RW talking head) who also happens to be a former Associate Director of the IEA and Head of Comms at the Adam Smith Institute.

I would add that I would not let this Tory govt handle it.
In Scotland though we should be able to look at doing thing differently although I accept that being radical is off the agenda until after indyref2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Did you read the article? It specifically says that the US system "would be a crazy model to imitate."

It's not right to just say that the NHS isn't being funded properly, we are about mid table in terms of funding as a %age of GDP out of OECD countries, https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SHA and there are countries below us in funding that are out performing us. It would be madness to not look at other countries' systems and try to work out how we can improve ours to match or exceed the outcomes they have.

We need to be able to have this discussion without people immediately going to the absolute extreme outcome and shouting "look at America, that's what we'll turn into." They are a complete basket case spending absolute fortunes on healthcare with terrible outcomes.

There is certainly a middle ground we could find, like other European countries have found where we can make the health service better for all, whilst maintaining the universal, free at point of use healthcare ethos of the NHS.

...and that sentence you've quoted is pure deflection on their part. I don't care what they say, I care what they do.

In a different world, of course there is a different model of health funding we could follow. But realpolitik suggests that's akin to having a discussion about what kind of jetpacks we'd like as public transport. The problem here is the use of the pronoun 'We'. (which you used a few times in your post, as well as 'Us' which I respectively think is a misleading pronoun to use when it comes to the Tory Govt and the Spectator :greengrin The present government are not going to engage in a discussion with the wider population about what is the best model for Us. I don't believe its wrong in theory to talk about alternatives to the NHS, but don't be fooled that its a genuine discussion. They want to rip the guts out of the NHS. It actually upsets me that more isnt been said and done about it.

[SHODAN]

Here it comes. They've all been working on it for years. I hope you're ready...

https://i.imgur.com/tN1UMuP.jpg

[Jack]

The Spector softening up for the inevitable privatisation of the NHS using a report from 3 years ago.

Towards the end of the article it mentions 3 countries:

Japan. The average cost of health insurance in Japan is about 35–40,000 JPY per month (330–370 USD). Your medical bills will remain the same and you can use the lump sum given to you by your private insurance to pay the 30% that is normally left over after the public health insurance coverage.

Canada. This is from the Fraser Institute. The reality of Canadian health care is that it is comparatively expensive and imposes enormous costs on Canadians in the form of waiting for services, and limited access to physicians and medical technology. This isn't something any country should consider replicating.

The Netherlands has a*universal healthcare system. It's managed by the government and supplemented by private insurers. Anyone living or working in the Netherlands must obtain basic level health insurance (with or without additional coverage) from a Dutch provider.

It would also be interesting to know if the Spector article is about the combined NHSs in the UK or just England.

[Stairway 2 7]

Countries should only be compared on how the least fortunate are treated. I know most of Europe have the same as America, but I believe the nhs way is the only way. Its funded ok but the money is used very poorly.

[AltheHibby]

Speaking as an accountant, my view is that they need to cut out huge amounts of admin.

In the public sector there used to be a mentality of costs "lying where they fall". Set budgets using that mentality and get rid of the beancounters and people who bill one NHS trust for work done for another, and there are huge savings available.

[Sergio sledge]

...and that sentence you've quoted is pure deflection on their part. I don't care what they say, I care what they do.

In a different world, of course there is a different model of health funding we could follow. But realpolitik suggests that's akin to having a discussion about what kind of jetpacks we'd like as public transport. The problem here is the use of the pronoun 'We'. (which you used a few times in your post, as well as 'Us' which I respectively think is a misleading pronoun to use when it comes to the Tory Govt and the Spectator :greengrin The present government are not going to engage in a discussion with the wider population about what is the best model for Us. I don't believe its wrong in theory to talk about alternatives to the NHS, but don't be fooled that its a genuine discussion. They want to rip the guts out of the NHS. It actually upsets me that more isnt been said and done about it.

I absolutely agree that the Tories can't be trusted with sorting it out, they can't be trusted with anything and are just wanting to make money.

However that doesn't change the fact that there needs to be a discussion around the NHS. Hopefully the next general election or indy ref changes things.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not sure if it's widespread but I have a friend who lives in France and he gets what is essentially a health MOT every 3 or 5 years (I can't remember which). He's the same age as me so the frequency may change with age. It's a few routine blood and urine tests, an eye test, a hearing test, a respiratory function test and a cardio exam. That's in addition to the breast, bowel etc stuff we get here. The results are reported back to his GP and any concerns are double checked and/or treated.

I've always felt the NHS is great in an emergency or critical situation but it fails when it comes to the preventative in a lot of areas. Personally speaking I had a mole removed in 2019 that turned out to be an early stage melanoma. No issue with the treatment; I attended my GP, was referred immediately to dermatology on the cancer pathway, was seen within the 6 week target time, was examined and advised I needed a removal and biopsy, got my results, had a follow up to remove a bit more skin then another 2 follow ups before being 'set free'. Great. However it was recommended that as I have upwards of 10 moles on my right arm (a red flag for melanoma) and 50+ moles across my entire body I be sent for mole mapping to keep an eye on any changes. 3 years plus later and I'm still waiting. Obviously I'm aware there has been a pretty big strain on the NHS in that time but reading various forums it seems such delays weren't uncommon even pre covid. That mapping could be the difference between another early diagnosis and something that is far more difficult (and thus costly) to treat. Likewise my daughter has an unconfirmed nut allergy, she has had 2 reactions thus far so we are aware of it but confirmation is required as to whether it is peanuts only, peanuts and tree nuts or those 2 plus other things. She has been on a respiratory waiting list for 18 months.....

The NHS always seems to be in reactive mode with the notable exception of the big hitters that, quite rightly, have widespread screening strategies. I've always thought a big spend on the preventative can lead to a removal of some of the strain further down the line. The NHS is a concept should be almost sacrosant (unless a genuinely better model that doesn't place financial strain on the individual is found) but it's function and running can be overhauled. I know 2 NHS workers who are leaving the service with a heavy heart after 25 years service between them because of frustrations with how the system is run, it's amazing to think that in this day and age 2 different GP surgeries could be using 2 totally different computer systems. That's glaringly inefficient and leads to mistakes (or crossed wires if you like) that waste money.

[Jack]

I'm not sure if it's widespread but I have a friend who lives in France and he gets what is essentially a health MOT every 3 or 5 years (I can't remember which). He's the same age as me so the frequency may change with age. It's a few routine blood and urine tests, an eye test, a hearing test, a respiratory function test and a cardio exam. That's in addition to the breast, bowel etc stuff we get here. The results are reported back to his GP and any concerns are double checked and/or treated.

I've always felt the NHS is great in an emergency or critical situation but it fails when it comes to the preventative in a lot of areas. Personally speaking I had a mole removed in 2019 that turned out to be an early stage melanoma. No issue with the treatment; I attended my GP, was referred immediately to dermatology on the cancer pathway, was seen within the 6 week target time, was examined and advised I needed a removal and biopsy, got my results, had a follow up to remove a bit more skin then another 2 follow ups before being 'set free'. Great. However it was recommended that as I have upwards of 10 moles on my right arm (a red flag for melanoma) and 50+ moles across my entire body I be sent for mole mapping to keep an eye on any changes. 3 years plus later and I'm still waiting. Obviously I'm aware there has been a pretty big strain on the NHS in that time but reading various forums it seems such delays weren't uncommon even pre covid. That mapping could be the difference between another early diagnosis and something that is far more difficult (and thus costly) to treat. Likewise my daughter has an unconfirmed nut allergy, she has had 2 reactions thus far so we are aware of it but confirmation is required as to whether it is peanuts only, peanuts and tree nuts or those 2 plus other things. She has been on a respiratory waiting list for 18 months.....

The NHS always seems to be in reactive mode with the notable exception of the big hitters that, quite rightly, have widespread screening strategies. I've always thought a big spend on the preventative can lead to a removal of some of the strain further down the line. The NHS is a concept should be almost sacrosant (unless a genuinely better model that doesn't place financial strain on the individual is found) but it's function and running can be overhauled. I know 2 NHS workers who are leaving the service with a heavy heart after 25 years service between them because of frustrations with how the system is run, it's amazing to think that in this day and age 2 different GP surgeries could be using 2 totally different computer systems. That's glaringly inefficient and leads to mistakes (or crossed wires if you like) that waste money.

A couple of things here.

First and foremost is that the NHS was set up to provide free Healthcare at point of contact. Fundamentally that means you must be ill before it kicks in. It's only relatively recently, past couple of decades, where prevention has become 'fashionable'. Just think of how things in the general population have changed in that time and how health conscience most of us have become. However turning the NHS round to deal more effectively with health prevention will be a doddle in comparison to turning round the whole population!

Health MOTs have been considered in the UK and at the time were not considered effective against targeted campaigns. The MOTs pander to the worried well.

With regards the 2 GP IT systems. Most GPs in Scotland are/were independent contractors and as such get what they consider best for their practice.

Before I retired 9 years ago the finishing touches were being put on a system that allowed all the systems to speak to each other they were all pretty similar anyway. I certainly hope they've finished it by now!

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1519706451912142849?s=21&t=L1jTu8G3I2MgbcUp9mg_IQ

Interesting thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paul1642]

It’s clear something needs to be sorted at the NHS but I’m not sure more money is the key. There is breakdown on the gov.com tax website which tells you how much of your tax went to which area. Health is top on 21.9%. Welfare was the only category which came close.

God knows how much extra money would be required for the NHS to run smoothly but I would bet it’s an unimaginable amount. I’m not sure there are many of us ready for any more tax hikes right now and I can’t think of many other areas which could take a cut. Money needs to come form somewhere.

I might be wrong but I can’t help but wonder if the NHS is maybe run a little poorly.

Maybe a slight degree of means testing and less coverage of what is free. I don’t really have the solution but surely worldwide there is an example of what could be.

[LewysGot2]

Yes there is a better model. Fund it properly.

The oldest trick in the Tory book; starve a public resource of funding so it can’t deliver services properly and gets public approbation, then suggest an ‘alternative’ which involves flogging the family silver to speculators that you and your parents and grandparents paid taxes for.

The only other ‘model’ on the table at the moment is the American one, just look at MPs declaration of interests and who’s got their ear.

You have to experience the US healthcare system to know how bad it is. The single biggest cause of bankruptcy is being unable to afford being sick. I’ve got a friend with cancer who was well paid and successful in her field, can’t work, has lost her insurance and has sold her house to pay her bills. She’s now destitute and will die sooner than she should in poverty. I don’t even see the point debating with anyone who thinks the US model is the way to go.

If you don’t back the NHS you’ll have a US system before you know where you are. And that’s exactly what the likes of the ****ing ****bags that are behind The Spectator want.

Absolutely this 👏

When did we get so distracted by the identity politics that seem to have conveniently sidelined people fighting poverty class war and protecting the right to decent, adequate free at the point of access healthcare?

Those who are behind these manoeuvres have played a neat hand.

[Colr]

An issue I do agree with the Spectator on.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nhs-is-failing-us-all

There are better models out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best stay clear of the Tory Kool-Aid.

This is the same tactic used before to privatise water and energy and how’s that going?

The NHS is struggling because the Tories want it to struggle as an excuse to bring in their private sector mates so they can skim a profit off.

[Ozyhibby]

Best stay clear of the Tory Kool-Aid.

This is the same tactic used before to privatise water and energy and how’s that going?

The NHS is struggling because the Tories want it to struggle as an excuse to bring in their private sector mates so they can skim a profit off.

I’m not saying their or anyone else’s solution is better, just that the fact is that we are not delivering as good health care as other rich European countries.
If your solution involves the Tories not being in power then we have a problem because they are always in power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I’m not saying their or anyone else’s solution is better, just that the fact is that we are not delivering as good health care as other rich European countries.
If your solution involves the Tories not being in power then we have a problem because they are always in power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think this is the ‘the bad guys threatening to steal my house so the sensible thing is to burn it down before he gets the chance’ argument.

[Ozyhibby]

I think this is the ‘the bad guys threatening to steal my house so the sensible thing is to burn it down before he gets the chance’ argument.

The bad guys are already rationing your access to your house anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[superfurryhibby]

The Covid crisis gives the Tories the perfect opportunity to escalate the privatisation of the NHS.

Alternatively, we could try and just implement a proper model of individual and corporate taxation and fund it ourselves.

[ronaldo7]

Just saw a report on the news saying that a young couple in Lewisham, were sent home after the hospital staff had told them their babies heart had stopped beating. The girl then gave birth at home (15weeks). They then took the foetus in a box to A&E, where the staff told them their was nothing they could do for them. The husband then took the foetus home and put it in the fridge as they Hospital said they'd no room.

Absolutely deplorable from the staff.

Is this what it's come to?

Surely someone could have stepped in and helped them.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...cid=uxbndlbing

[Colr]

The Covid crisis gives the Tories the perfect opportunity to escalate the privatisation of the NHS.

Alternatively, we could try and just implement a proper model of individual and corporate taxation and fund it ourselves.

I know a few folk who work for the NHS. They were all very sceptical about the doorstep clapping during the pandemic reckoning that it was superficial bull**** and the narrative would turn against them again as soon as it was over. It’s certainly proven to be the case with Daily Mail readers.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know a few folk who work for the NHS. They were all very sceptical about the doorstep clapping during the pandemic reckoning that it was superficial bull**** and the narrative would turn against them again as soon as it was over. It’s certainly proven to be the case with Daily Mail readers.I got roasted on here for saying that at the time.

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/sittongary/status/1534148868396531712?s=21&t=wiX1OrZjdm4sxftY1yJ8yw

[emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Softening us up before the flurry of late-round punches…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/02/insurance-based-system-way-save-nhs/

[Hibbyradge]

Softening us up before the flurry of late-round punches…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/02/insurance-based-system-way-save-nhs/

I've been saying for years that the degradation of the NHS was a deliberate, cynical ploy so that insurance was seen as the way to fix it.

I'm not claiming to have great foresight or anything as I'm sure loads of others have had similar thoughts.

The problem is, unless taxation is increased considerably, funding for the NHS will continue to be inadequate.

[Stairway 2 7]

Uk has one of the highest health funding as a % of gdp in the world. But we've less Dr's and hospital beds than loads bellow us. Funding isn't the problem it's where is the money going
https://mobile.twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1479418322999517186

[hibsbollah]

I've been saying for years that the degradation of the NHS was a deliberate, cynical ploy so that insurance was seen as the way to fix it.

I'm not claiming to have great foresight or anything as I'm sure loads of others have had similar thoughts.

The problem is, unless taxation is increased considerably, funding for the NHS will continue to be inadequate.

I sometimes think there is wilful ‘talking down’ the NHS to make it seem worse than it really is, to encourage more people to use private provision and further degrade it.

At other times I have the opposite view, and that for certain branches of medicine particularly this service that we used to think was world leading is now leaving people in pain and to early death. I’ve got friends right now that would get better care overseas.

I suppose you just have to listen to those working in the profession and to patients to get to the bottom of it.

[Hibbyradge]

I sometimes think there is wilful ‘talking down’ the NHS to make it seem worse than it really is, to encourage more people to use private provision and further degrade it.

At other times I have the opposite view, and that for certain branches of medicine particularly this service that we used to think was world leading is now leaving people in pain and to early death. I’ve got friends right now that would get better care overseas.

I suppose you just have to listen to those working in the profession and to patients to get to the bottom of it.

I don't know if the talking down is partly deliberate, but there are countless examples of poor service.

Trying to get a GP appointment where I am is like going through hoops. Phone calls instead of F2F consultations, photographs rather than physical examination and what seems like a layered triage system before the Doctor is even consulted about your case.

I hurt my hand/wrist playing golf on 27 August (must have hit one of those notorious middle of the fairway tree roots 😁) and when it hadn't cleared up 10 days later, I called the doctor's surgery.

I didn't get past the receptionist. Go to A&E, I was told.

I knew York hospital was busy so I checked their website. It said not to go there, but to use another hospital's A&E!

I eventually went to another community hospital in Malton, 20 miles away, and was seen within 40 minutes. There was nothing they could do so I was advised to go back to my GP who might refer me for a scan.

I spoke to the receptionist who said she'd pass my case to the doctor and I'd hear back soon. I got a text the next morning giving me an appointment in 7 weeks, with a "Ist contact physio".

It's sub standard.

[hibsbollah]

I don't know if the talking down is partly deliberate, but there are countless examples of poor service.

Trying to get a GP appointment where I am is like going through hoops. Phone calls instead of F2F consultations, photographs rather than physical examination and what seems like a layered triage system before the Doctor is even consulted about your case.

I hurt my hand/wrist playing golf on 27 August (must have hit one of those notorious middle of the fairway tree roots 😁) and when it hadn't cleared up 10 days later, I called the doctor's surgery.

I didn't get past the receptionist. Go to A&E, I was told.

I knew York hospital was busy so I checked their website. It said not to go there, but to use another hospital's A&E!

I eventually went to another community hospital in Malton, 20 miles away, and was seen within 40 minutes. There was nothing they could do so I was advised to go back to my GP who might refer me for a scan.

I spoke to the receptionist who said she'd pass my case to the doctor and I'd hear back soon. I got a text the next morning giving me an appointment in 7 weeks, with a "Ist contact physio".

It's sub standard.

We get free private healthcare through a family members employer. I don’t feel comfortable using it because I don’t believe in privilege, but I have gone private for an op before, because I knew I wouldn’t get on the NHS. It was at a soulless hospital where a coal mine and thriving community used to be when I was growing up. Almost too perfect a metaphor. I don’t know if not using that provision would have been a pointless act, and using NHS services is actually using their precious resources?

Maybe we’re at the point when these kind of consumer choices are irrelevant. I’ll just continue to vote for parties that are committed to keeping it free at the point of use and increasing NHS spending and recruitment.

[Hibbyradge]

We get free private healthcare through a family members employer. I don’t feel comfortable using it because I don’t believe in privilege, but I have gone private for an op before, because I knew I wouldn’t get on the NHS. It was at a soulless hospital where a coal mine and thriving community used to be when I was growing up. Almost too perfect a metaphor. I don’t know if not using that provision would have been a pointless act, and using NHS services is actually using their precious resources?

Maybe we’re at the point when these kind of consumer choices are irrelevant. I’ll just continue to vote for parties that are committed to keeping it free at the point of use and increasing NHS spending and recruitment.

I wouldn't class using an employee benefit as privilege and, in principle, I'm perfectly happy for people to go private as it does help free up NHS resources.

However, the NHS service should be much closer to the private provision in terms of quality and availability.

I might consider paying for a scan on my wrist, depending on what happens at my appointment, particularly if an NHS scan is either refused or if there's a lengthy wait.

Would I feel guilty about it? Possibly a bit, but is there really any point continuing to suffer unnecessarily?

:dunno:

I'm not sure what kind of scan I'd need, nor the cost so it may be academic regardless of what the physio says.

[Lendo]

Was previously at Leith Links Surgery when I lived in Burns Street but since moving up to Abbeyhill I’m just a few hundred metres out of the catchment.

Cannot seem to join the Brunton Road Surgery as the website constantly says they are closed to new applicants. Perhaps a good thing as it’s got a terrible reputation.

Nothing else in the area so god knows what I can. Emailed NHS Scotland and they sent me a list of places to try but I’m out of their boundaries.

[Pretty Boy]

I've always wondered if more services could be opened up to self referral. It's something I've always found quite fascinating about the US system, people can in many instances just make an appointment with a particular specialism.

It's open for limited services here. Physio in some areas, podiatry in others and for procedures such as vasectomies in most. I had an in grown toe nail a few years back, obviously you know what that is so I self referred to podiatry, was seen within a couple of weeks and the required out patient procedure was done another week after that. All in it was 3 weeks from referral to resolution and no need for a GP appointment to confirm what was obvious. You can't argue with that. On the flip side I had a very suspicious looking mole on my arm in 2019, just about every red flag was present. Phoned my GP at 8am every morning for 5 days straight before even getting to speak to a receptionist, GP was supposed to phone me back that day but didn't, called for another 2 days before getting a receptionist again, got a call back that time then was asked to send a picture of the mole, GP then agreed I needed to be seen, went in, he looked at it for about a second and immediately agreed I needed a referral. Was placed on the cancer pathway which means a target of being seen by a dermatologist within 2 weeks, was 16 days so not bad. It was decided the mole had to be removed and biopsied. This was done on the NHS but by a private partner a couple of weeks later. I was told the results would be sent to my GP and they would contact me within 4 weeks. 5 weeks later there was nothing, called my GP, no results here, called dermatology, 'you need to speak to your GP', called them again and was told quite rudely they had nothing. This back and forward with no shortage of worry went on for another 5 days. Eventually I wrote a letter to dermatology who to their credit called me quickly, told me the results had definitely been sent to my GP 3 weeks before but confirmed over the phone that the mole was an early stage melanoma that required further surgery and follow up. To this day my GP still hasn't ever called and when seeing them about something else fairly recently there was no record of said diagnosis on my notes. Absolutely farcical and almost like a too many cooks scenario.

In an instance like the latter I really don't see why I couldn't self refer to dermatology. 7 days desperately trying to speak to a GP is ridiculous by any standard and needlessly stressful. Obviously there is a risk that people self refer when it isn't necessary and clog up specialisms when they don't need to be there but at the moment we seem to have a situation in which GPs are so unwilling or unable to see patients that in desperation many are clogging up A&E departments because they are either told 'if you are that worried go there' or they really don't know what else to do because the front line GP service is all but closed off to them.

[Hibbyradge]

I've always wondered if more services could be opened up to self referral. It's something I've always found quite fascinating about the US system, people can in many instances just make an appointment with a particular specialism.

It's open for limited services here. Physio in some areas, podiatry in others and for procedures such as vasectomies in most. I had an in grown toe nail a few years back, obviously you know what that is so I self referred to podiatry, was seen within a couple of weeks and the required out patient procedure was done another week after that. All in it was 3 weeks from referral to resolution and no need for a GP appointment to confirm what was obvious. You can't argue with that. On the flip side I had a very suspicious looking mole on my arm in 2019, just about every red flag was present. Phoned my GP at 8am every morning for 5 days straight before even getting to speak to a receptionist, GP was supposed to phone me back that day but didn't, called for another 2 days before getting a receptionist again, got a call back that time then was asked to send a picture of the mole, GP then agreed I needed to be seen, went in, he looked at it for about a second and immediately agreed I needed a referral. Was placed on the cancer pathway which means a target of being seen by a dermatologist within 2 weeks, was 16 days so not bad. It was decided the mole had to be removed and biopsied. This was done on the NHS but by a private partner a couple of weeks later. I was told the results would be sent to my GP and they would contact me within 4 weeks. 5 weeks later there was nothing, called my GP, no results here, called dermatology, 'you need to speak to your GP', called them again and was told quite rudely they had nothing. This back and forward with no shortage of worry went on for another 5 days. Eventually I wrote a letter to dermatology who to their credit called me quickly, told me the results had definitely been sent to my GP 3 weeks before but confirmed over the phone that the mole was an early stage melanoma that required further surgery and follow up. To this day my GP still hasn't ever called and when seeing them about something else fairly recently there was no record of said diagnosis on my notes. Absolutely farcical and almost like a too many cooks scenario.

In an instance like the latter I really don't see why I couldn't self refer to dermatology. 7 days desperately trying to speak to a GP is ridiculous by any standard and needlessly stressful. Obviously there is a risk that people self refer when it isn't necessary and clog up specialisms when they don't need to be there but at the moment we seem to have a situation in which GPs are so unwilling or unable to see patients that in desperation many are clogging up A&E departments because they are either told 'if you are that worried go there' or they really don't know what else to do because the front line GP service is all but closed off to them.

That's really terrible.

My wrist is sore and it's frustrating not being able to golf etc, but I'm not particularly worried.

I'd have been worried sick in your situation.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1584/in-the-back?fbclid=IwAR0kMQmWSWZbwE-MyG-mBDBLIQVoWb3wkIBxw0Y3ZgR60BXODrcZFB_-htA

Profoundly depressing link here. Spire was the private hospital where I recently got treatment because I couldn’t get it on the nhs, carried out by the same surgeon who saw me a number of years ago as a NHS employee.

[Bridge hibs]

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1584/in-the-back?fbclid=IwAR0kMQmWSWZbwE-MyG-mBDBLIQVoWb3wkIBxw0Y3ZgR60BXODrcZFB_-htA

Profoundly depressing link here. Spire was the private hospital where I recently got treatment because I couldn’t get it on the nhs, carried out by the same surgeon who saw me a number of years ago as a NHS employee.A lot of Consultants and Surgeons run private clinics. When I had my shoulder injections many moons ago in Ultrasound at RIE it was done by a Dr Begg who works between RIE and Murrayfield hospital, my hip injections were done by a different Consultant who also worked between the two hospitals

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221115/1b6effc37089e99166976bdc142c2311.jpg

UK now has worst access to healthcare in Europe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/315534364_5649639075082025_5242250833706278225_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=dQDqRdyl6dAAX9Qs5UC&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDn0kIsIx_2IRNOswjENyzNcyCoIx7mSslNiQS9_NgM 1w&oe=637919CC

[Ozyhibby]

“This is a national emergency and requires tough decisions. To help us out of this difficult situation we need to bring in the private sector for a limited time until the back log is cleared.”
How long till we hear something like that from Sunak?[emoji115]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

Uk has one of the highest health funding as a % of gdp in the world. But we've less Dr's and hospital beds than loads bellow us. Funding isn't the problem it's where is the money going
https://mobile.twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1479418322999517186Much of that will be going on PFI and other stealth privatisation. I suspect if the NHS was, as it should be, fully public there would be far more value for money and better outcomes. Much of the money going into the NHS goes straight into the hands of the wealthy without touching the needs of the ill.

[Stairway 2 7]

Much of that will be going on PFI and other stealth privatisation. I suspect if the NHS was, as it should be, fully public there would be far more value for money and better outcomes. Much of the money going into the NHS goes straight into the hands of the wealthy without touching the needs of the ill.

But most on the list have much more privatised health care than the UK. Most of Europe has already sold of their NHS as it were. These graphs are total spending on health including private.

[James310]

Much of that will be going on PFI and other stealth privatisation. I suspect if the NHS was, as it should be, fully public there would be far more value for money and better outcomes. Much of the money going into the NHS goes straight into the hands of the wealthy without touching the needs of the ill.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/health-and-social-care-england-myths


The NHS is being privatised.

The facts:

Private companies have always played a role in the NHS, with services such as dentistry, optical care and community pharmacy being provided by the private sector for decades, and most GP practices are private partnerships. The NHS and the private sector have also established partnerships for the delivery of clinical services such as radiology and pathology and non-clinical services such as car parking and management of buildings and the estate, while independent hospitals have been used under successive governments to provide additional capacity in response to pressures on NHS services.

Identifying how much the NHS spends on the private sector is not straightforward but estimates can be made using data from the annual accounts of the Department of Health and Social Care.

...spending by NHS commissioners on services delivered by the private sector increased to £12.2 billion in 2020/21. However... this again represents only around 7 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget.

Following the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which extended market-based principles and introduced more competition into the NHS, the number of contracts awarded to private providers increased. However, this did not lead to an increase in the proportion of the NHS budget spent on private providers, in large part because the majority of contracts tended to be smaller than those awarded to NHS providers. In 2019/20, before the pandemic, NHS commissioners spent £9.7 billion, or 7.2 per cent of the Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget on services delivered by the private sector. This proportion has remained largely unchanged since 2012.

Throughout the Covid-19 pandemic, the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS entered into new contractual arrangements with the independent hospital sector to increase capacity. These arrangements provided access to additional beds, staff and equipment to treat patients during the peak of the pandemic and are being used now in some places to support efforts to reduce how long people wait for routine care. As a result, spending by NHS commissioners on services delivered by the private sector increased to £12.2 billion in 2020/21. However, in the context of the significant additional funding provided in response to the pandemic, this again represents only around 7 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget.

The Health and Care Act 2022 removed the competition and market-based approaches introduced by the 2012 Act. This gives commissioners greater flexibility over when to use competitive procurement processes, reducing the frequency with which clinical services are put out to tender and allowing contracts to be rolled over where the existing provider, most likely to be an NHS provider, is doing a good job.

Verdict:
There is no evidence of widespread privatisation of NHS services. The proportion of the NHS budget spent on services delivered by the private sector has remained broadly stable over the past decade

[wookie70]

But most on the list have much more privatised health care than the UK. Most of Europe has already sold of their NHS as it were. These graphs are total spending on health including private.

There is private and private. I suspect other countries will be looking for value whereas the UK is looking to syphon funds to the rich. Is it all the easy bits of healthcare that are privatised in other countries.

There is also an apples to oranges factor in that the UK population as a whole has terrible eating habits, drug use and drinking are a big issue, and we couldn't care less about the poor or less able. The systems for care, health and well being are broken so it isn't a surprise that the NHS will are struggling as they are the end of the line for care and the least effective and costly way to deal with many citizens who should be home and being helped by another service. I also think the lack of prevention plays a part too as our FPTP system means no government looks beyond their next electoral success and that is all that matters to them. Health and Care need joined up medium and long term strategy. We will never get that in the UK under the current electoral system.

[Stairway 2 7]

There is private and private. I suspect other countries will be looking for value whereas the UK is looking to syphon funds to the rich. Is it all the easy bits of healthcare that are privatised in other countries.

There is also an apples to oranges factor in that the UK population as a whole has terrible eating habits, drug use and drinking are a big issue, and we couldn't care less about the poor or less able. The systems for care, health and well being are broken so it isn't a surprise that the NHS will are struggling as they are the end of the line for care and the least effective and costly way to deal with many citizens who should be home and being helped by another service. I also think the lack of prevention plays a part too as our FPTP system means no government looks beyond their next electoral success and that is all that matters to them. Health and Care need joined up medium and long term strategy. We will never get that in the UK under the current electoral system.

We've got one of the highest life expectancies in Europe so we are fortunate in many ways, 10 years on average longer than Eastern Europe. The amount we put in health care should definitely be better spent. Nhs spending has went up every year in the last 10 I read, but nurses wages have went down. There is corruption somewhere and it begins at Westminster.

26290

[SHODAN]

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/health-and-social-care-england-myths


The NHS is being privatised.

The facts:

Private companies have always played a role in the NHS, with services such as dentistry, optical care and community pharmacy being provided by the private sector for decades, and most GP practices are private partnerships. The NHS and the private sector have also established partnerships for the delivery of clinical services such as radiology and pathology and non-clinical services such as car parking and management of buildings and the estate, while independent hospitals have been used under successive governments to provide additional capacity in response to pressures on NHS services.

Identifying how much the NHS spends on the private sector is not straightforward but estimates can be made using data from the annual accounts of the Department of Health and Social Care.

...spending by NHS commissioners on services delivered by the private sector increased to £12.2 billion in 2020/21. However... this again represents only around 7 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget.

Following the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which extended market-based principles and introduced more competition into the NHS, the number of contracts awarded to private providers increased. However, this did not lead to an increase in the proportion of the NHS budget spent on private providers, in large part because the majority of contracts tended to be smaller than those awarded to NHS providers. In 2019/20, before the pandemic, NHS commissioners spent £9.7 billion, or 7.2 per cent of the Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget on services delivered by the private sector. This proportion has remained largely unchanged since 2012.

Throughout the Covid-19 pandemic, the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS entered into new contractual arrangements with the independent hospital sector to increase capacity. These arrangements provided access to additional beds, staff and equipment to treat patients during the peak of the pandemic and are being used now in some places to support efforts to reduce how long people wait for routine care. As a result, spending by NHS commissioners on services delivered by the private sector increased to £12.2 billion in 2020/21. However, in the context of the significant additional funding provided in response to the pandemic, this again represents only around 7 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget.

The Health and Care Act 2022 removed the competition and market-based approaches introduced by the 2012 Act. This gives commissioners greater flexibility over when to use competitive procurement processes, reducing the frequency with which clinical services are put out to tender and allowing contracts to be rolled over where the existing provider, most likely to be an NHS provider, is doing a good job.

Verdict:
There is no evidence of widespread privatisation of NHS services. The proportion of the NHS budget spent on services delivered by the private sector has remained broadly stable over the past decade

The King's Fund is a GSK-partnered think tank who have previously advocated for NHS privatisation. Not the best source.

[James310]

The King's Fund is a GSK-partnered think tank who have previously advocated for NHS privatisation. Not the best source.

So the numbers used are wrong? Which ones?

[Smartie]

The King's Fund is a GSK-partnered think tank who have previously advocated for NHS privatisation. Not the best source.

I’ve read through the article and it doesn’t read like something that is consciously or otherwise advocating the need for further privatisation of the NHS.

[Santa Cruz]

An excellent new way of working to begin in England to help with quicker cancer diagnosis. Hopefully we see the same direct GP referrals rolled out across all RoUK health services soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/16/gps-england-send-suspected-cancer-patients-directly-tests

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_link_id=73BA4432-6930-11ED-91FB-E6C94744363C&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter

They’ll get slated for this but new thinking is needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_link_id=73BA4432-6930-11ED-91FB-E6C94744363C&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter

They’ll get slated for this but new thinking is needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No new thinking should involve anyone paying for nhs services. Uk healthcare funding is in line with western European countries. We need to sort out the waste and mismanagement, the funds are there

[Hibby Bairn]

Many already pay for dental services. And if you don't then it can be difficult to find a NHS dentist as a new patient. So there is already a two tier system there.

[Hibby Bairn]

We need to sort out the waste and mismanagement, the funds are there

Definitely. Even something simple like sending out appointment letters must cost hundreds of millions of pounds.

An app based system could eradicate this. And for the 20% or so who need or want a letter then that could continue.

[Ozyhibby]

Many already pay for dental services. And if you don't then it can be difficult to find a NHS dentist as a new patient. So there is already a two tier system there.

Not just dental services. Private healthcare is booming in the UK just now as people can’t be waiting up to two years for treatment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibby Bairn]

Not just dental services. Private healthcare is booming in the UK just now as people can’t be waiting up to two years for treatment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes. But I think dental insurance is now quite common amongst a large part of the population. Private health insurance not so much...yet.

I know someone who was told it was 3 years for a hip replacement on NHS. They were in pain. Had the means. So paid £14k to get it done almost immediately.

The capacity is there. The finances not so much.but something needs to change.

[heretoday]

There's already a two-tier system. People who can afford it, and some who can't, are considering shelling out in order to end their pain and discomfort sooner rather than later. What's the point of being in pain for ages when you can end it now, especially in your declining years?

Commentators are scapegoating middle management and bureaucracy but that sounds like Tory talk. Cut out the paper shufflers. Unfortunately you need bureaucracy to run a monster like the NHS!

[Stairway 2 7]

Hospital beds have halved in the last 30 years, but the NHS budget has doubled in real terms

https://mobile.twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1451848634883092480

In the last 20 years the ministry of health's staff has doubled but nurses only up 7%. Where the money going, mostly on wages

We definitely underspend compared to gdp but we perform worse than we should

[Just Alf]

A key driver for the bed reductions was modern methods and medicine, example being my wife's shoulder replacement op, 1st one years ago she was in almost a week, last time she was out the following evening.

[Hibby Bairn]

A key driver for the bed reductions was modern methods and medicine, example being my wife's shoulder replacement op, 1st one years ago she was in almost a week, last time she was out the following evening.

And maternity wards/beds. Not even time nowadays for a post birth cuppa and plate of toast (as a supportive dad 🙂)

[hibsbollah]

I have a friend in London who’s son had sickness and diahorrea for 2 weeks, couldn’t get an NHS GP appointment for two weeks, told the receptionist finally she was willing to pay, she got an appointment that afternoon.

Nobody seems to have noticed or is talking about it but the NHS as we knew it is already history. Beveridge would be turning in his grave.

[Stairway 2 7]

A key driver for the bed reductions was modern methods and medicine, example being my wife's shoulder replacement op, 1st one years ago she was in almost a week, last time she was out the following evening.

That would make sense if the fifth tweet doesn't show that we cut more and and a bigger % than most eu nations. We've alot less beds per person than most western nations.

[Smartie]

That would make sense if the fifth tweet doesn't show that we cut more and and a bigger % than most eu nations. We've alot less beds per person than most western nations.

I'd love to know how "number of beds" relates to "health outcomes" when it comes to assessing the performance of the NHS.

It strikes me a trite stat that politicians could tweak to make it look like they're doing a better job than they actually are "under this government we have seen the number of hospital beds increase by.... blah, blah" with patients more likely to die in crowded wards when they could be safely discharged home etc, with the money saved being used to fund adequate disease prevention programmes.

Whilst we are correctly cynical about the idea of healthcare money being siphoned off to pay profits, let's not forget that resources and positive health outcomes can be siphoned off elsewhere to pay political capital to those who wish to govern us.

[Jack]

I'd love to know how "number of beds" relates to "health outcomes" when it comes to assessing the performance of the NHS.

It strikes me a trite stat that politicians could tweak to make it look like they're doing a better job than they actually are "under this government we have seen the number of hospital beds increase by.... blah, blah" with patients more likely to die in crowded wards when they could be safely discharged home etc, with the money saved being used to fund adequate disease prevention programmes.

Whilst we are correctly cynical about the idea of healthcare money being siphoned off to pay profits, let's not forget that resources and positive health outcomes can be siphoned off elsewhere to pay political capital to those who wish to govern us.

The modern thinking for some time has been fewer hospital beds but try reducing the number without surgeons and the like kicking up a fuss in the local media - more beds higher status as they see it!

The problem, as I see it, is that insufficient resources have been made available to get people out of these incredibly expensive beds and back home or into cheaper to run convalescent type institutions. I personally don't see this new National Care Service achieving this.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd love to know how "number of beds" relates to "health outcomes" when it comes to assessing the performance of the NHS.

It strikes me a trite stat that politicians could tweak to make it look like they're doing a better job than they actually are "under this government we have seen the number of hospital beds increase by.... blah, blah" with patients more likely to die in crowded wards when they could be safely discharged home etc, with the money saved being used to fund adequate disease prevention programmes.

Whilst we are correctly cynical about the idea of healthcare money being siphoned off to pay profits, let's not forget that resources and positive health outcomes can be siphoned off elsewhere to pay political capital to those who wish to govern us.

Germany has almost double the beds per 10k than us. I'm obviously no expert, but when we have people dying in queues of ambulances sitting outside hospitals waiting for a bed, it's obvious we have to little.

One reason they say Germany did so much better in the first two waves of covid, was the capacity it had for emergencies.

[Just Alf]

]
That would make sense if the fifth tweet doesn't show that we cut more and and a bigger % than most eu nations. We've alot less beds per person than most western nations.Oh I know , not defending the current position at all, more needs done... just pointing out there were clinical reasons for bed reductions (at one point at least)

[Mibbes Aye]

Hospital beds have halved in the last 30 years, but the NHS budget has doubled in real terms

https://mobile.twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1451848634883092480

In the last 20 years the ministry of health's staff has doubled but nurses only up 7%. Where the money going, mostly on wages

We definitely underspend compared to gdp but we perform worse than we should

Worth noting that there are a number of reasons why hospital beds numbers have decreased that are deliberately linked to policy, across the UK, especially when looking at it over the last 35 years.

A lot of people receiving mental health care no longer reside in facilities which are deemed to be 'hospital'. with 'hospital beds' (even though they don't look like 'hospitals' from the outside)

A lot of people with learning disabilities no longer reside in facilities which are deemed to be 'hospital'. with 'hospital beds' (even though they don't look like 'hospitals' from the outside)

A lot of people who require nursing care but not necessarily in a hospital setting are no longer badged as 'NHS continuing care' which means that their beds are not described as 'hospital beds'.

Some people who erred on the side of needing a hospital bed are now supported 'at home', whether in 'extra care' housing or with intensive multidisciplinary care at home or with approaches like 'hospital at home'. They are homeowners or tenants and not counted as occupying 'hospital beds'.

So, as per usual, there is a lot more to things than one simple stat or graph, taken out of context.

If nothing else, linking to someone who works for the IEA, Liz and Kwasi's thinktank of choice should have been a warning that all may not be as it seems :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Hospital bed numbers are a bit like ‘bobbys on the beat’. A number that is used to describe the quality of a service which has no correlation with the quality of that service.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Worth noting that there are a number of reasons why hospital beds numbers have decreased that are deliberately linked to policy, across the UK, especially when looking at it over the last 35 years.

A lot of people receiving mental health care no longer reside in facilities which are deemed to be 'hospital'. with 'hospital beds' (even though they don't look like 'hospitals' from the outside)

A lot of people with learning disabilities no longer reside in facilities which are deemed to be 'hospital'. with 'hospital beds' (even though they don't look like 'hospitals' from the outside)

A lot of people who require nursing care but not necessarily in a hospital setting are no longer badged as 'NHS continuing care' which means that their beds are not described as 'hospital beds'.

Some people who erred on the side of needing a hospital bed are now supported 'at home', whether in 'extra care' housing or with intensive multidisciplinary care at home or with approaches like 'hospital at home'. They are homeowners or tenants and not counted as occupying 'hospital beds'.

So, as per usual, there is a lot more to things than one simple stat or graph, taken out of context.

If nothing else, linking to someone who works for the IEA, Liz and Kwasi's thinktank of choice should have been a warning that all may not be as it seems :greengrin

That's all window dressing and can explain a tiny amount. How about icu hospital beds only. Uk has 228 per 100k Germany 621 per 100k. Tories are running nhs to the ground. Nurse numbers, nurses wages and hospital beds have collapsed compared to western Europe. Finances haven't, it's about time the explained where the money has gone

[Jack]

That's all window dressing and can explain a tiny amount. How about icu hospital beds only. Uk has 228 per 100k Germany 621 per 100k. Tories are running nhs to the ground. Nurse numbers, nurses wages and hospital beds have collapsed compared to western Europe. Finances haven't, it's about time the explained where the money has gone

Do Germanys, or any other country you might throw up, include high dependency beds and what the different criteria is between them and ICU is?

[wookie70]

Hospital beds have halved in the last 30 years, but the NHS budget has doubled in real terms

https://mobile.twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1451848634883092480

In the last 20 years the ministry of health's staff has doubled but nurses only up 7%. Where the money going, mostly on wages

We definitely underspend compared to gdp but we perform worse than we should

If it is anything like the Civil Service it will have went on a huge amount of administrators telling workers what to do, a massive increase in the numbers employed as managers most of who will know nothing about the work, procurement staff making contracts where the items would be cheaper at the local shop and a multitude of failed IT software and IT workers who appear to make more money if they are unsuccessful that if they provide what was requested. So much money is spent on working out how to deliver and the actual delivering workers are starved of funds and usually undervalued in the pay structure. Where I work we spend approximately the same on what I would deem to be productive workers wages as we do on those not directly involved in producing

[Stairway 2 7]

Do Germanys, or any other country you might throw up, include high dependency beds and what the different criteria is between them and ICU is?


Here's great but shocking article from the bma showing how poor our hospital bed numbers are compared to the rest of Europe. We've also got a lot less critical care beds per head. It also shows its not down to reclassification of beds either

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-hospital-beds-data-analysis

[Jack]

Here's great but shocking article from the bma showing how poor our hospital bed numbers are compared to the rest of Europe. We've also got a lot less critical care beds per head. It also shows its not down to reclassification of beds either

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-hospital-beds-data-analysis

So you've moved the goal posts from ICU to critical care. You regularly do similar.

I'm in no way defending what the torys have done to the NHS in England.

[Stairway 2 7]

So you've moved the goal posts from ICU to critical care. You regularly do similar.

I'm in no way defending what the torys have done to the NHS in England.

What you mumbling about as usual, the charts says we have a fraction of both icu and critical care compared to peers. It was constantly reported throughout covid that we did so bad due to much less icu capacity than other Western European countries. Did you read the bma article because your disputing what they say

[Allant1981]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_type=web_link&at_link_origin=BBCPolitics&at_link_id=73BA4432-6930-11ED-91FB-E6C94744363C&at_campaign_type=owned&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter

They’ll get slated for this but new thinking is needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They might then find some money to give us a decent pay rise!

[Jack]

What you mumbling about as usual, the charts says we have a fraction of both icu and critical care compared to peers. It was constantly reported throughout covid that we did so bad due to much less icu capacity than other Western European countries. Did you read the bma article because your disputing what they say

You said


That's all window dressing and can explain a tiny amount. How about icu hospital beds only. Uk has 228 per 100k Germany 621 per 100k.

... and I challenged you about the criteria for an ICU bed the UK and Germany. You then quoted a report about critical care, high dependency and ICU beds. That report is not ICU specific. Nor does it say what the difference is between UK ICU beds and their German equivalent. Note UK critical care and high dependency are not ICU beds.

[hibsbollah]

What you mumbling about as usual, the charts says we have a fraction of both icu and critical care compared to peers. It was constantly reported throughout covid that we did so bad due to much less icu capacity than other Western European countries. Did you read the bma article because your disputing what they say

F sake man, Jack clearly has worked in the sector, why do you regularly get things wrong due to not checking your facts properly, and then never ever back down?

[Stairway 2 7]

You said



... and I challenged you about the criteria for an ICU bed the UK and Germany. You then quoted a report about critical care, high dependency and ICU beds. That report is not ICU specific. Nor does it say what the difference is between UK ICU beds and their German equivalent. Note UK critical care and high dependency are not ICU beds.

I haven't got the definition but every report including WHO says Germany has multiple times more icu beds than the UK.

This report into icu beds puts Germany at population 82 million, hospitals with icu beds 1260, icu beds per 100k 31.8
Uk , 62 million, 290, 7.5 per 100k

I only put up critical care because it show we have a fraction on every metric icu beds, critical care and hospital beds


It's a weird hill for you to die on. Were you not involved in the NHS surely you knew we were behind our peers. It was widely reported regularly during covid that we had less icu beds and hospital beds than most western European nations

[Jack]

I haven't got the definition but every report including WHO says Germany has multiple times more icu beds than the UK.

This report into icu beds puts Germany at population 82 million, hospitals with icu beds 1260, icu beds per 100k 31.8
Uk , 62 million, 290, 7.5 per 100k

I only put up critical care because it show we have a fraction on every metric icu beds, critical care and hospital beds


It's a weird hill for you to die on. Were you not involved in the NHS surely you knew we were behind our peers. It was widely reported regularly during covid that we had less icu beds and hospital beds than most western European nations

I was involved with the NHS and that's how I know there's a difference and so making straight comparisons misleading. It's been mentioned before. Not by me!

[Ozyhibby]

All this discussion about beds is just about measuring inputs. It’s outcomes that are most important and here we are getting our arse kicked by most of Europe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

All this discussion about beds is just about measuring inputs. It’s outcomes that are most important and here we are getting our arse kicked by most of Europe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But one begets the other. The bma said having less icu beds in comparison to most other Western European countries directly caused deaths in the first covid waves. Every winter were pushing over capacity add in covid pressure and it breaks us. Hospitals have regular queues of ambulances with people in them needing beds this also directly causes deaths.

I'd again recommend reading the bma plea for more beds. We have 2.4 per 1000 hospital beds the EU average is almost double at 4.6. Do you reckon they are all wrong and we are right.

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-hospital-beds-data-analysis

[Stairway 2 7]

I was involved with the NHS and that's how I know there's a difference and so making straight comparisons misleading. It's been mentioned before. Not by me!

Who mentioned it. The bma and Chris Hopson chief of nhs England also say we're near the bottom of the list of eu countries

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/28/uk-government-must-increase-number-of-nhs-beds-hospital-bosses-warn

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/28/uk-government-must-increase-number-of-nhs-beds-hospital-bosses-warn

[Sergio sledge]

My wife works in A&E and, simplistically, the reducing in bed numbers and lack of available beds has a direct correlation with the issues A&E departments are experiencing.

They are primarily measured in wait time, but the significantly lower wait times being experienced now are significantly impacted by the reduction in bed numbers in the hospital. If there isn't a bed available in ICU, or CCU, the patient can't be moved out of A&E which means that they breach the 4 hour limit as well as the person behind them in the treatment queue also breaching.

It isn't the only reason clearly, but making more beds available either by employing more staff, or clearing bed blockers or to community care would have a massive impact on the quality of care in A&E.

It doesn't help the perception that there is too many managers/administrators when there are two floors in the hospital up here previously used as wards with 40 odd beds that are now offices for the managers in the hospital and can not be opened up for patient care.

I'm not really sure what the answer is to be honest, but more nursing, doctor and support staff would certainly make a massive difference. To do that they need to pay these staff a fair wage and not keep gradually eroding their wages.

[Smartie]

My wife works in A&E and, simplistically, the reducing in bed numbers and lack of available beds has a direct correlation with the issues A&E departments are experiencing.

They are primarily measured in wait time, but the significantly lower wait times being experienced now are significantly impacted by the reduction in bed numbers in the hospital. If there isn't a bed available in ICU, or CCU, the patient can't be moved out of A&E which means that they breach the 4 hour limit as well as the person behind them in the treatment queue also breaching.

It isn't the only reason clearly, but making more beds available either by employing more staff, or clearing bed blockers or to community care would have a massive impact on the quality of care in A&E.

It doesn't help the perception that there is too many managers/administrators when there are two floors in the hospital up here previously used as wards with 40 odd beds that are now offices for the managers in the hospital and can not be opened up for patient care.

I'm not really sure what the answer is to be honest, but more nursing, doctor and support staff would certainly make a massive difference. To do that they need to pay these staff a fair wage and not keep gradually eroding their wages.

A+E is definitely a department where a shortage of beds would have a significant impact.

A+E is a weird one though, in that it's a department that comes under huge pressure at some times and can be relatively quiet at others. Whilst we're all demanding value for the taxpayer it can be quite hard to tally up Friday and Saturday night mayhem with relatively quiet times through the week (although I reckon they've probably closed down most of the A+E departments that would have historically fitted this description).

The point was made elsewhere though that there are conditions that previously would have been treated by having patients in hospital, in beds, where that is no longer the case. It's for the best for the patient that this is no longer the case, it's not just Tories saving money.

So whilst "beds" will tell you so much and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, it's only one of thousands of measurables that will go towards assessing the value for money and effectiveness of a health service.

[Stairway 2 7]

F sake man, Jack clearly has worked in the sector, why do you regularly get things wrong due to not checking your facts properly, and then never ever back down?

Just noticed this wee welp. How have I got it wrong every single source including the head of nhs England agrees with me. Last time you said I was wrong was when you said Russia was going to start a new front in Kherson. About 2 weeks later they lost half of the oblast ha. Just you keep fact checking yourself son

[Stairway 2 7]

Rishi goes to a private gp practice, not unexpected

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/21/rishi-sunak-is-registered-with-private-gp-practice?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[degenerated]

Germany has almost double the beds per 10k than us. I'm obviously no expert, but when we have people dying in queues of ambulances sitting outside hospitals waiting for a bed, it's obvious we have to little.

One reason they say Germany did so much better in the first two waves of covid, was the capacity it had for emergencies.You probably need to look at the politics of Germany to get a better understanding. I'm no expert but since the war Germany has either had CDU, SPD or coalition government. The CDU seem to be more akin to labour under Blair/starmer whereas the SPD seem more like labour. I'm sure Hibrandenberg can correct me but I don't think they have elected anything as right wing as post '79 conservative party.

[Stairway 2 7]

You probably need to look at the politics of Germany to get a better understanding. I'm no expert but since the war Germany has either had CDU, SPD or coalition government. The CDU seem to be more akin to labour under Blair/starmer whereas the SPD seem more like labour. I'm sure Hibrandenberg can correct me but I don't think they have elected anything as right wing as post '79 conservative party.

That could be correct for Germany but we've dropped below Poland, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland and France who all have very right wing government often.

I think the tories are truly a special brand of self serving filth. They use the blanket of keeping a free NHS whilst running it into the ground

[Smartie]

That could be correct for Germany but we've dropped below Poland, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland and France who all have very right wing government often.

I think the tories are truly a special brand of self serving filth. They use the blanket of keeping a free NHS whilst running it into the ground

We keep electing them though.

Or, we struggle to find people to make a compelling enough argument for doing things differently.

I share your general despair for the state of healthcare in the UK. I can't quite get my head around how and why we're getting it so wrong.

[Hibrandenburg]

You probably need to look at the politics of Germany to get a better understanding. I'm no expert but since the war Germany has either had CDU, SPD or coalition government. The CDU seem to be more akin to labour under Blair/starmer whereas the SPD seem more like labour. I'm sure Hibrandenberg can correct me but I don't think they have elected anything as right wing as post '79 conservative party.

:agree: That's a decent analysis, the Tories in their current constellation are further right than the AfD. On the other hand, the German health service resembles more the Tory vision of how it should be rather than the left's, it's definitely 2 tier however even the lower tier comes at a high price compared to that in the UK. All in all most people are happy enough to pay more for a decent health service.

[Stairway 2 7]

:agree: That's a decent analysis, the Tories in their current constellation are further right than the AfD. On the other hand, the German health service resembles more the Tory vision of how it should be rather than the left's, it's definitely 2 tier however even the lower tier comes at a high price compared to that in the UK. All in all most people are happy enough to pay more for a decent health service.

Sunak’s government just aren't further right than afd. Their last manifesto wanted to ban gay marriage, said climate change wasn't man made, wants to ban the burqa and call to prayer and put all imams through vetting. They are both awful on immigration although afd are worse on their views on multiculturalism.

Tories are definitely brutally right wing still

[hibsbollah]

Sunak’s government just aren't further right than afd. Their last manifesto wanted to ban gay marriage, said climate change wasn't man made, wants to ban the burqa and call to prayer and put all imams through vetting. They are both awful on immigration although afd are worse on their views on multiculturalism.

Tories are definitely brutally right wing still

Who’s last manifesto ‘wanted to ban gay marriage’?

[Stairway 2 7]

Who’s last manifesto ‘wanted to ban gay marriage’?

Afd they wanted civil partnerships only, no marriages for same sex couples

[hibsbollah]

I see. I thought you were talking about the Tories.

It’s incredibly simplistic to try and pick out one policy here and there and use that to make the case that Govt is more or less right or left wing than another. We are crossing over between right wing economic policy and right wing social policy. Germany has no history of free market neo liberalism and so will generally be more ‘left’ than British Tories, but the left/right distinction is misleading.

[Stairway 2 7]

I see. I thought you were talking about the Tories.

It’s incredibly simplistic to try and pick out one policy here and there and use that to make the case that Govt is more or less right or left wing than another. We are crossing over between right wing economic policy and right wing social policy. Germany has no history of free market neo liberalism and so will generally be more ‘left’ than British Tories, but the left/right distinction is misleading.

It wasn't one policy. I think almost everyone would agree the far right afd are more right wing on almost every policy and the ones they are they have similar opinions. Do you actually think the tories are more right wing

[hibsbollah]

It wasn't one policy. I think almost everyone would agree the far right afd are more right wing on almost every policy and the ones they are they have similar opinions. Do you actually think the tories are more right wing

You’re not showing any sign of actually reading and understanding my post, so I’ll repeat that it depends whether you’re describing the U.K. Tories social policies or their economic policies, and that you need to understand the historical context in both countries and their economic traditions, and bow out until you’ve finished.

[Stairway 2 7]

You’re not showing any sign of actually reading and understanding my post, so I’ll repeat that it depends whether you’re describing the U.K. Tories social policies or their economic policies, and that you need to understand the historical context in both countries and their economic traditions, and bow out until you’ve finished.

So on that token Hibrandenburg shouldn't have said the tories are more right wing, you agree? I did understand it it's not hard it's the usual give no answer. You don't have to study the nations historical traditions to say afd are more right wing than the tories, absolute waffle

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Any chance of a separate forum for hibsbollah & Stairway to continue their own political discourse? 🤔😀

[Ozyhibby]

I see the Times are now advocating charging for access to the NHS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[neil7908]

I see the Times are now advocating charging for access to the NHS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So it begins.

My partner and I have been considering moving for a bit but have made the decision today to leave the UK. I'm actually quite worried about where things are going in this country and one of the few areas I've always clung to as a reason to stay was the NHS. I think this is likely the beginning of the end and I'd rather not stick around to find out.

[Stairway 2 7]

So it begins.

My partner and I have been considering moving for a bit but have made the decision today to leave the UK. I'm actually quite worried about where things are going in this country and one of the few areas I've always clung to as a reason to stay was the NHS. I think this is likely the beginning of the end and I'd rather not stick around to find out.

May I ask where you would go, doesn't most of Europe have privatised health care.

[marinello59]

I see the Times are now advocating charging for access to the NHS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You got a link to that?
There’s a pretty good piece asking why we don’t go down the Irish route of charging for healthcare, it’s certainly not advocating we start charging for access here though. Worth a read.

[Hibrandenburg]

So on that token Hibrandenburg shouldn't have said the tories are more right wing, you agree? I did understand it it's not hard it's the usual give no answer. You don't have to study the nations historical traditions to say afd are more right wing than the tories, absolute waffle

You're kidding yourself if you think the modern tory party are left of the AfD, their strings are pulled by the ERG and they have shifted so far right that they now incorporate the views of UKIP. Not only are they economically further right than any other ruling party in the developed world but their rhetoric has been lifted directly from far-right extremist groups.

We're talking about a party whose initial reaction during a pandemic was to let the bodies pile high, who have swept to power on a wave of xenophobia, created what are effectively concentration camps in Africa, removed access to benefits for disabled people, want to destroy trade unions, tried to illegally prorogue parliament, have buried reports of interactions between them and the dictator Putin, buried reports on racism in the party, tried to avoid or at least delay sanctions against Russian oligarchs who finance them and on and on. This Tory government isn't quite as cuddly as you make them out to be.

[Stairway 2 7]

You're kidding yourself if you think the modern tory party are left of the AfD, their strings are pulled by the ERG and they have shifted so far right that they now incorporate the views of UKIP. Not only are they economically further right than any other ruling party in the developed world but their rhetoric has been lifted directly from far-right extremist groups.

We're talking about a party whose initial reaction during a pandemic was to let the bodies pile high, who have swept to power on a wave of xenophobia, created what are effectively concentration camps in Africa, removed access to benefits for disabled people, want to destroy trade unions, tried to illegally prorogue parliament, have buried reports of interactions between them and the dictator Putin, buried reports on racism in the party, tried to avoid or at least delay sanctions against Russian oligarchs who finance them and on and on. This Tory government isn't quite as cuddly as you make them out to be.

I didn't make them out to be anything other than a vile right wing party. The Rwanda policy is evil, afd agree with it.

But they just aren't as right wing as afd it's utterly daft to say they are. From banning gay marriage to saying multiculturalism doesn't work afd are far right. Saying the tories are further right than them is so daft it takes the attention away from just how right wing they have become

[Hibrandenburg]

I didn't make them out to be anything other than a vile right wing party. The Rwanda policy is evil, afd agree with it.

But they just aren't as right wing as afd it's utterly daft to say they are. From banning gay marriage to saying multiculturalism doesn't work afd are far right. Saying the tories are further right than them is so daft it takes the attention away from just how right wing they have become

You need to differentiate between what they say and what they actually do. Both parties are abominable and the AfD might just edge it in some aspects of their policies but it's the Tories economical policy that pushes them further right than the AfD as a whole.

[neil7908]

May I ask where you would go, doesn't most of Europe have privatised health care.

We've previously been lived in Australia years back and always enjoyed the lifestyle. With where the UK is headed though I think we have been given the push to leave. It just feels like NHS, education, economy etc are all in freefall and even if Labour get in power in a couple of years, the damage done under 14 years of Tory rule is going to take years to fix, if that's even possible.

Anyway that's all for another thread!

[Stairway 2 7]

We've previously been lived in Australia years back and always enjoyed the lifestyle. With where the UK is headed though I think we have been given the push to leave. It just feels like NHS, education, economy etc are all in freefall and even if Labour get in power in a couple of years, the damage done under 14 years of Tory rule is going to take years to fix, if that's even possible.

Anyway that's all for another thread!

I don't disagree, years of them and we've been driven down the tubes. Ive too many ties with the kids just now, but could definitely do it down the line, good luck with whatever you decide

[silverhibee]

My missus was taking in to hospital on Tuesday by ambulance, she got there about 10 in the morning, finally got seen by a doctor at 4 o’clock I was told to wait in the waiting room, what a nightmare it was, it was heaving and folk were being told it would be a 6 hour wait, folk collapsing a women bleeding and half a dozen polis looking after prisoners, was glad when I got taking through to be with the wife who was lying on a bed in the corridor, she had a suspected malaena, she eventually got moved through to pod 3 which was just as chaotic, it seemed the biggest problem is getting beds in wards for patients, I left her at about 10 at night, after a lot of tests she will hopefully get home tomorrow, you really do have to feel for the staff who are under massive pressure and doesn’t help when patients and relatives are abusing the staff, you can see they are doing there best but it just isn’t enough for some selfish folk.

[Santa Cruz]

My missus was taking in to hospital on Tuesday by ambulance, she got there about 10 in the morning, finally got seen by a doctor at 4 o’clock I was told to wait in the waiting room, what a nightmare it was, it was heaving and folk were being told it would be a 6 hour wait, folk collapsing a women bleeding and half a dozen polis looking after prisoners, was glad when I got taking through to be with the wife who was lying on a bed in the corridor, she had a suspected malaena, she eventually got moved through to pod 3 which was just as chaotic, it seemed the biggest problem is getting beds in wards for patients, I left her at about 10 at night, after a lot of tests she will hopefully get home tomorrow, you really do have to feel for the staff who are under massive pressure and doesn’t help when patients and relatives are abusing the staff, you can see they are doing there best but it just isn’t enough for some selfish folk.

That's awful for your wife and yourself, sounds very stressful. Hope she gets home tomorrow as expected. Terrible for the staff as you say. I have a lot of appts with my GP. Used to be you'd be 5th in the queue, I was 22 the other day, just gave up. I now make a point of acknowledging I understand how busy they are. I told a new young receptionist she had a lovely telephone manner, she sounded chuffed. I think for all the people giving abuse (and although it's wrong, sometimes I think it will come from genuine panic that they are watching family deteriorate while waiting) the public need to give more acknowledgment/ praise to help with morale. If people feel appreciated they are more likely to stay in a job.

I had the opposite experience with minor injuries last week - it was nowhere near an acute condition as your wife. Phoned NHS24 at 7am, Clinician phoned back about 10 mins later. Waited a further 20 mins for Minor Injuries to triage then they called. Appointment that day, taken on time too. Thought the service was excellent, I was braced for a long wait. I'd go as far to say having sat in minor injuries with family for hours prior to the pandemic, imo this new system works more efficiently, or at least it did on the day I used it.

Take care SH, try and get some sleep (says me :greengrin)

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000589924564

This was an interesting listen about the NHS. I really think it’s worth looking at how things are done in the rest of Europe because their systems do appear to be performing much better than ours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[archie]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000589924564

This was an interesting listen about the NHS. I really think it’s worth looking at how things are done in the rest of Europe because their systems do appear to be performing much better than ours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm going to agree with Ozyhibby to a point. Clearly there is something very wrong with the NHS across the UK. I'm sure all governments are looking at this urgently, but there needs to be a systematic examination of what the actual issues are, not point scoring or whataboutery. Is it resources, lack of funding, the mixed model we have or something else? But whatever the problem, I suspect the solution will be paying more somehow. I don't like to revert to anecdote, but I was once a guest of the Australian health care system. It was excellent and, as part of the recipocal arrangement we have, it was free. Well to a point. Just before I was taken into surgery an official from the hospital came to see us. They said that I could have option A at no cost. There was, however, an option B that was better - that was $6,000. Maybe Aussie posters can confirm if that still applies. Would we want that here?

[Keith_M]

Mentioned this before but my wife got so fed up with the disjointedness, delays and inefficiency of parts of our Health Service that she paid for private health care abroad.

She traveled across for an initial 'assessment', then went over one month later for an operation, which seems to have sorted the problem. She's a bit p1ssed off now with some of the invoices she's received, and has challenged a couple of them, but it's ridiculous she felt she had to even take this approach in the first place.

I'm totally in favour of the concept of the NHS, and have no qualms with the vast majority of medical staff, but there are issues that that really need to be addressed... preferably without any of the usual political bias.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm going to agree with Ozyhibby to a point. Clearly there is something very wrong with the NHS across the UK. I'm sure all governments are looking at this urgently, but there needs to be a systematic examination of what the actual issues are, not point scoring or whataboutery. Is it resources, lack of funding, the mixed model we have or something else? But whatever the problem, I suspect the solution will be paying more somehow. I don't like to revert to anecdote, but I was once a guest of the Australian health care system. It was excellent and, as part of the recipocal arrangement we have, it was free. Well to a point. Just before I was taken into surgery an official from the hospital came to see us. They said that I could have option A at no cost. There was, however, an option B that was better - that was $6,000. Maybe Aussie posters can confirm if that still applies. Would we want that here?

I was in my 20’s/early 30’s when I was there and not really paying much attention to how the system worked. I had a green card type thing in my wallet that meant any emergency care was covered. I had to have a knee op after tearing it playing footy there and I had to pay $10k for that but I have no idea if that would have been the case for Aussie’s or if it was just because I was Scottish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

Of course, the problem we have just now is the most right wing government in at least a century, which wants to destroy the universal principle of the NHS. Indeed, it wants to destroy all public services. The government wants strikes and chaos so it can make the case the NHS no longer works and should be privatised. Well, of course the system works, but it requires constructive input from government. Nurses have seen their real terms pay fall by an average of around twenty per cent since 2010; how much can anyone be expected to take?

Thousands of nurses from EU countries left the NHS after Brexit, with remaining staff trying to bridge the gap as best they can. Any debate about funding must include the idea of abolishing the ceiling on National Insurance contributions. Everyone should pay NI in the same way we pay income tax. The ceiling is another loophole foe the wealthiest in society. Nurses in England must once again have the costs of their training paid for. The never-ending government reforms of the NHS, which create an environment of constant chaos, must stop.

Our NHS and its staff represent the best ideals of a human society, and they mustn't be lost. This Tory government wants to end the NHS and the wonderful cradle-to-grave care it provides. We are running of time to save it, but we can, if we think it's important enough.

[Hibs4185]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000589924564

This was an interesting listen about the NHS. I really think it’s worth looking at how things are done in the rest of Europe because their systems do appear to be performing much better than ours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t know exactly how the French system works but my uncle used to fly home for treatment on the nhs, but all his friends have had operations using the French system and it’s next level.

Prime example was a hip replacement for his friend. Done using some sort of key hole surger. It left a minimal scar and recovery time was half of a normal procedure.

The nhs is incredible and I’d never bash it but it does seem other countries are more efficient

[Jack]

Of course, the problem we have just now is the most right wing government in at least a century, which wants to destroy the universal principle of the NHS. Indeed, it wants to destroy all public services. The government wants strikes and chaos so it can make the case the NHS no longer works and should be privatised. Well, of course the system works, but it requires constructive input from government. Nurses have seen their real terms pay fall by an average of around twenty per cent since 2010; how much can anyone be expected to take?

Thousands of nurses from EU countries left the NHS after Brexit, with remaining staff trying to bridge the gap as best they can. Any debate about funding must include the idea of abolishing the ceiling on National Insurance contributions. Everyone should pay NI in the same way we pay income tax. The ceiling is another loophole foe the wealthiest in society. Nurses in England must once again have the costs of their training paid for. The never-ending government reforms of the NHS, which create an environment of constant chaos, must stop.

Our NHS and its staff represent the best ideals of a human society, and they mustn't be lost. This Tory government wants to end the NHS and the wonderful cradle-to-grave care it provides. We are running of time to save it, but we can, if we think it's important enough.

Here here.

Incidentally I ended up in hospital in Madrid. They, the hospital staff, told me it was the best in Spain "This is the one Franco died in". "I'd rather be in one he survived in" I said. After a moment there was laughter all round. Many of the doctors and nurses from all over the hospital had spent time in Edinburgh and came to visit asking about this pub and that night club. The medical treatment I received was very good, as described by a consultant when I got home. Free too!

My dad retired to Spain 30 years ago and in his latter years spent a lot of time under medical supervision. Excellent stuff and all free.

[Keith_M]

Here here.

Incidentally I ended up in hospital in Madrid. They, the hospital staff, told me it was the best in Spain "This is the one Franco died in". "I'd rather be in one he survived in" I said. After a moment there was laughter all round. Many of the doctors and nurses from all over the hospital had spent time in Edinburgh and came to visit asking about this pub and that night club. The medical treatment I received was very good, as described by a consultant when I got home. Free too!

My dad retired to Spain 30 years ago and in his latter years spent a lot of time under medical supervision. Excellent stuff and all free.


:faf:

[archie]

Here here.

Incidentally I ended up in hospital in Madrid. They, the hospital staff, told me it was the best in Spain "This is the one Franco died in". "I'd rather be in one he survived in" I said. After a moment there was laughter all round. Many of the doctors and nurses from all over the hospital had spent time in Edinburgh and came to visit asking about this pub and that night club. The medical treatment I received was very good, as described by a consultant when I got home. Free too!

My dad retired to Spain 30 years ago and in his latter years spent a lot of time under medical supervision. Excellent stuff and all free.

If I recall correctly, wasn't Franco's death a rather artificially extended affair, to get the succession in place?

[Hibernia&Alba]

A good take by Phil Moorhouse, giving some important stats on what The Tories have done to the NHS since 2010.


https://youtu.be/KQkp5I1vdnk

[archie]

This is a very interesting (and in some ways surprising) thread on why the NHS in England is facing problems. May be read across to us https://twitter.com/BenZaranko/status/1602935890036269057

[Ozyhibby]

This is a very interesting (and in some ways surprising) thread on why the NHS in England is facing problems. May be read across to us https://twitter.com/BenZaranko/status/1602935890036269057

I’m almost certain we will be facing the same problems with our NHS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

This is a very interesting (and in some ways surprising) thread on why the NHS in England is facing problems. May be read across to us https://twitter.com/BenZaranko/status/1602935890036269057

That is interesting, particularly when you couple it up with our ageing population and brexit issues regarding the proportion of the population who are net contributors to the system and those who are not, having lost many net contributors in recent years.

It paints a pretty bleak picture for the short to medium term future for sure.

It would be great if we could have an adult conversation as a nation about what to do when there's less to go round, more for it to be spent on and where our priorities should lie but that sadly seems like an unrealistic hope.

Whilst there's less to go round, there's still plenty for everyone...



At a tangent, I work in healthcare but not for the NHS. My work has been absolutely decimated over the past couple of weeks by short notice cancellations. There is no shortage of demand, I'm not short of work but the amount of covid, sickness bugs, colds, flu, possible strep infections and chancers who know that by mentioning any of the above that they can get away with not coming to an appointment is making very difficult to have a working day that borders on anything approaching efficient. Now, if you were to extrapolate that sort of stuff over the whole of the NHS I can only imagine the millions of pounds of taxpayer's money that will be going to waste right now on a daily basis.

[archie]

That is interesting, particularly when you couple it up with our ageing population and brexit issues regarding the proportion of the population who are net contributors to the system and those who are not, having lost many net contributors in recent years.

It paints a pretty bleak picture for the short to medium term future for sure.

It would be great if we could have an adult conversation as a nation about what to do when there's less to go round, more for it to be spent on and where our priorities should lie but that sadly seems like an unrealistic hope.

Whilst there's less to go round, there's still plenty for everyone...



At a tangent, I work in healthcare but not for the NHS. My work has been absolutely decimated over the past couple of weeks by short notice cancellations. There is no shortage of demand, I'm not short of work but the amount of covid, sickness bugs, colds, flu, possible strep infections and chancers who know that by mentioning any of the above that they can get away with not coming to an appointment is making very difficult to have a working day that borders on anything approaching efficient. Now, if you were to extrapolate that sort of stuff over the whole of the NHS I can only imagine the millions of pounds of taxpayer's money that will be going to waste right now on a daily basis.

Interesting. The bit that most surprised me about the article was staff numbers. Staffing up but so is sickness etc.

[archie]

Another interesting piece from the Guardian on issues with health services in Europe. Rather soberingly, a German commentator says problems in the NHS are sign of things to come for them. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkAyqNjWYAEn2r3?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ozyhibby]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkAyqNjWYAEn2r3?format=jpg&name=medium

That’s unfortunate. What is their size within the NHS compared to the two unions who accepted?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

That’s unfortunate. What is their size within the NHS compared to the two unions who accepted?

Haven't been able to find definitive numbers, but here's what I've got so far.

Unite - 1500 Scottish Ambulance workers
Unison - biggest NHS union in Scotland - represents 50,000 NHS workers including nurses, midwives and support staff, such as domestics, porters and administrative workers
GMB Scotland last month suspended a 26-hour ambulance strike and has put the new deal to more than 4,000 members in a vote.

[Ozyhibby]

Haven't been able to find definitive numbers, but here's what I've got so far.

Unite - 1500 Scottish Ambulance workers
Unison - biggest NHS union in Scotland - represents 50,000 NHS workers including nurses, midwives and support staff, such as domestics, porters and administrative workers
GMB Scotland last month suspended a 26-hour ambulance strike and has put the new deal to more than 4,000 members in a vote.

Unless they are the biggest union then they are going to be slightly isolated? Hard to go on strike looking to earn more than your colleagues have already accepted? Your colleagues are not going to be impressed so there will be peer pressure on them. Will be interesting to see where this goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Unless they are the biggest union then they are going to be slightly isolated? Hard to go on strike looking to earn more than your colleagues have already accepted? Your colleagues are not going to be impressed so there will be peer pressure on them. Will be interesting to see where this goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BBC report around 8,000 GMB members in Scotland's NHS, porters, ambulance staff mostly

[Ozyhibby]

BBC report around 8,000 GMB members in Scotland's NHS, porters, ambulance staff mostly

That’s a significant amount. I think they’ll end up accepting the deal though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

That’s unfortunate. What is their size within the NHS compared to the two unions who accepted?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How is it unfortunate? They didn't vote the way they did accidentally.

[Ozyhibby]

How is it unfortunate? They didn't vote the way they did accidentally.

It’s unfortunate because we might be facing strikes and we don’t want that. Do we?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

How is it unfortunate?
I guess it's not unfortunate if your desired outcome is strikes and the demonisation of health service workers.

[wookie70]

I'm glad GMB members have voted to reject. Just a pity they will now be isolated. The deal may be better but it still amounts to a large chunk lost that will unlikely ever be recovered. I'd imagine hospitals would grind to a halt without porters so they still have a chance of forcing a better deal. SG have announced they are going back into discussions with Civil Service Unions after they imposed deals on us earlier this year. Todays tax reforms were welcome but go nowhere near enough. Tough for SG to go much further though when you have Westminster being so soft of avoidance and those paid the most

[Stairway 2 7]

Interesting thread on nurses wages

https://mobile.twitter.com/tomhcalver/status/1604198230236880896

@tomhcalver
🧵 NEW: How do we solve the nurse's pay crisis?

Nurses have finally had enough – but the government is not budging on its 4.75% offer. How do we fix this mess?

Enjoyed writing about a subject close to my heart (my mum's a nurse of 30+ years!)
@thetimes

[Santa Cruz]

Unless they are the biggest union then they are going to be slightly isolated? Hard to go on strike looking to earn more than your colleagues have already accepted? Your colleagues are not going to be impressed so there will be peer pressure on them. Will be interesting to see where this goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think because of the planned industrial action in England and Wales, people are forgetting the Scotland branch of the RCN union. Their ballot to consider the revised pay award offer closes tomorrow I think?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64052327?at_link_id=9D437A30-8122-11ED-9006-09DC96E8478F&at_format=link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_medium=social&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_bbc_team=editorial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

RCN and RCM rejected the pay offer.

[Ozyhibby]

RCN and RCM rejected the pay offer.

I doubt there is money to go much higher unless UK does same and there are Barnett consequentials. Terrible way to run a country but hey ho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

I doubt there is money to go much higher unless UK does same and there are Barnett consequentials. Terrible way to run a country but hey ho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They literally just done a budget. If it didn't include paying nurses fairly then someone should have taken over and done it right.

I know you're just going to reply but what about down south...

[Ozyhibby]

They literally just done a budget. If it didn't include paying nurses fairly then someone should have taken over and done it right.

I know you're just going to reply but what about down south...

And they raised every tax within their power. What else could they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

And they raised every tax within their power. What else could they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They raised it enough to pay the nurses?

[Moulin Yarns]

And they raised every tax within their power. What else could they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not only did they raise taxes but it can only apply from April next year for income tax.

[Ozyhibby]

They raised it enough to pay the nurses?

Maybe they have raised it as high as they can without the tax take falling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

They literally just done a budget. If it didn't include paying nurses fairly then someone should have taken over and done it right.
Don't remember you complaining last week when the budget was announced.

[Stairway 2 7]

Don't remember you complaining last week when the budget was announced.

I literally said glad it's going up but not far enough for me, go back check then say fair enough your right

[grunt]

I literally said glad it's going up but not far enough for me, go back check then say fair enough your right


It's brilliant:agree:

[hibsbollah]

Critical incidents declared across England, as the NHS effectively throws up its hands and declares itself to deliver bare standards of care. The Government is still refusing to discuss pay. It’s an unbelievable, basket case pre democracy state of affairs.

[Stairway 2 7]

:agree:

You've literally ignored the line before where I said it would be better if bigger, shocking patter. If it isn't enough to pay the nurses it's simply not a competent budget. They were shouting that nurses weren't striking in Scotland unlike England. Suffering from premature celebration

[Ozyhibby]

You've literally ignored the line before where I said it would be better if bigger, shocking patter. If it isn't enough to pay the nurses it's simply not a competent budget. They were shouting that nurses weren't striking in Scotland unlike England. Suffering from premature celebration

To be fair, nurses are on strike today in England and not in Scotland. That is 100% down to the SG’s willingness to talk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

To be fair, nurses are on strike today in England and not in Scotland. That is 100% down to the SG’s willingness to talk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221221/d0718ba3da12549847cb989a961e378b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1605541032082358273?s=46&t=LOr8IJ1aQpj3jzG_ZfDRTg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

If it isn't enough to pay the nurses it's simply not a competent budget.Not "brilliant" then?

[grunt]

They were shouting that nurses weren't striking in Scotland unlike England. Suffering from premature celebration


To be fair, nurses are on strike today in England and not in Scotland. That is 100% down to the SG’s willingness to talk.


Indeed

So, not "premature celebration" then?

[Stairway 2 7]

Not "brilliant" then?

They said there was a deal I assumed there was because the health minister said it. Turns out today there wasn't so no not brilliant at all. I feel I'm pretty objective and am very happy we have a higher tax rate than England. The snp are immeasurably better than the tories. But if your pay offer is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a party

[Stairway 2 7]

So, not "premature celebration" then?

They said a deal was done humza was giving it big licks, they have voted 82% against the deal. Very premature

[Ozyhibby]

I think you might be talking about the deal with the other two unions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

They said there was a deal I assumed there was because the health minister said it. Turns out today there wasn't so no not brilliant at all. I feel I'm pretty objective and am very happy we have a higher tax rate than England. The snp are immeasurably better than the tories. But if your pay offer is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a party
You're blaming the SNP here, but surely it was the union who decided to accept the deal and put it to their members. Perhaps if your pay deal is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a trade union?

[Stairway 2 7]

I think you might be talking about the deal with the other two unions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah he said we won't have striking nurses unlike England. He didn't say we will have some striking nurses. It's constantly us against England rather that sorting our own house where we can

[Stairway 2 7]

You're blaming the SNP here, but surely it was the union who decided to accept the deal and put it to their members. Perhaps if your pay deal is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a trade union?

Yep snp and the union come of very poorly

[Pretty Boy]

You're blaming the SNP here, but surely it was the union who decided to accept the deal and put it to their members. Perhaps if your pay deal is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a trade union?

Unions don't accept pay deals, they put the offer to their members and (often but not always) make a recommendation on how they should vote.

Any trade union is in place to act on behalf of it's members, if a majority of the members vote to accept the deal then it's job done. If they don't accept it then the union acts accordingly by seeking fresh negotiations and coordinates action based on the desire of it's members. If the members have voted to reject the pay offer then it's the responsibility of the union to act on those wishes. The democratic will of the members is that this pay deal isn't acceptable and as such nothing has been accepted and industrial action will continue.

My sister is a nurse and didn't hesitate for a second in rejecting the offer. It's a significant (continued) real terms pay decrease and she simply isn't willing to accept that. As she works in an acute care department she won't go on strike but she will be working to rule in solidarity with those who are.

[grunt]

Yep snp and the union come of very poorly
Please don't think I'm prolonging this discussion, but I don't see why the SNP (by which I mean the SG) comes out poorly. They negotiated with the union, and agreed a deal that the union was happy with. If there's any blame here, it has to be the union for not understanding the feelings of its membership. I don't see how the SG could have done more.

[grunt]

Unions don't accept pay deals, they put the offer to their members and (often but not always) make a recommendation on how they should vote. Perhaps my terminology was wrong, but presumably the union felt that this was a deal it could put to its membership? Haven't we seen examples elsewhere (RMT?) where the union doesn't even agree to go back to membership?


My sister is a nurse and didn't hesitate for a second in rejecting the offer. It's a significant (continued) real terms pay decrease and she simply isn't willing to accept that. As she works in an acute care department she won't go on strike but she will be working to rule in solidarity with those who are.And I understand this completely. I have every sympathy for the striking workers and strongly support their decision to strike, or work to rule.

[Pretty Boy]

Perhaps my terminology was wrong, but presumably the union felt that this was a deal it could put to its membership? Haven't we seen examples elsewhere (RMT?) where the union doesn't even agree to go back to membership?

And I understand this completely. I have every sympathy for the striking workers and strongly support their decision to strike, or work to rule.

If a pay offers is totally derisory then it's not uncommon for it not to be put to members, or put to them with a strong recommendation to reject it. 7.5% in the circumstances was probably looked at as worthy of consideration albeit I suspect there was a feeling it would be rejected.

Even if a pay offer doesn't go to the members there will still be ballots on continuing industrial action, up to and including strikes. The results of those will give an indication of the feeling amongst the membership. An example would probably be the RMT now where support for strike action is slowly but noticeably falling. A deal that is palatable is probably not far away.

[Stairway 2 7]

Please don't think I'm prolonging this discussion, but I don't see why the SNP (by which I mean the SG) comes out poorly. They negotiated with the union, and agreed a deal that the union was happy with. If there's any blame here, it has to be the union for not understanding the feelings of its membership. I don't see how the SG could have done more.

Offer a deal that they don't think is derisory. The object of a good government shouldn't be find the biggest cut in wages that the nurses will accept imo

[Ozyhibby]

Sometimes there is nobody to blame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

The situation in England isn't comparable with us also. They are ****bags who won't even talk. I'm sure a deal will be done in Scotland. Further this situation is due to hyper inflation, which in no small part is made worse by the f up of Brexit

[grunt]

A deal that is palatable is probably not far away.Let us hope so.

[Ozyhibby]

The situation in England isn't comparable with us also. They are ****bags who won't even talk. I'm sure a deal will be done in Scotland. Further this situation is due to hyper inflation, which in no small part is made worse by the f up of Brexit

And it’s not just about getting a deal done. The govt needs to get these wages back to a level where they can start filling the vacancies that have been building up over the last ten years. The govt need these wages to rise as much as the nurses do. Unless the plan is to run down the service?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

And it’s not just about getting a deal done. The govt needs to get these wages back to a level where they can start filling the vacancies that have been building up over the last ten years. The govt need these wages to rise as much as the nurses do. Unless the plan is to run down the service?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where the f is the money going. The NHS budget is up about £900 million a week from 3 years ago, mental stuff

[Kato]

Where the f is the money going. The NHS budget is up about £900 million a week from 3 years ago, mental stuff£3b being payed to agency Nurses and Doctors. All the VIP Lane spending being put on the NHS balance sheet. The budget may be up but there are factors distorting the final figure.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Where the f is the money going. The NHS budget is up about £900 million a week from 3 years ago, mental stuff

We are all getting older and there are not enough young people around to pay for our care. And every new medical advance creates massive costs while it keeps people alive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

We are all getting older and there are not enough young people around to pay for our care. And every new medical advance creates massive costs while it keeps people alive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's went up gradually, then up from 150 to 200 in 3 years. That isn't aging

[Smartie]

It's went up gradually, then up from 150 to 200 in 3 years. That isn't aging

There are self help books out there now about how to get the best out of a 100 year life.

Cradle to grave healthcare, free at the point of delivery, becoming more expensive as technology improves and expectation with it puts a huge pressure on the public purse.

Chuck in the effect that chronic covid related conditions are having on the population and the reluctance of the public to vote in favour of policies like those proposed by Jeremy Corbyn where more tax is raised to be spent on such services and you end up with the perfect storm we have right now where it seems like more and more is being spent but services / pay for people working in the system are steadily worsening.

I wish I had the answers, but I think that we the public just need to get our heads around the idea that healthcare, good healthcare, costs a lot of money. There's a little bit less to go round and we all need to shoulder our own bit of responsibility.

[Jack]

£3b being payed to agency Nurses and Doctors. All the VIP Lane spending being put on the NHS balance sheet. The budget may be up but there are factors distorting the final figure.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Add to that one lunchtime program (where the panel included the deluded JR Mogg) said that £1 in every £4 of NHS spend now goes on PFI contracts. He only argued that PFI was a Labour invention.

[Stairway 2 7]

Isn't our nhs devolved so we get an amount to spend through barnett?

[marinello59]

You're blaming the SNP here, but surely it was the union who decided to accept the deal and put it to their members. Perhaps if your pay deal is so poor that nurses are striking then you need to reevaluate your priorities as a trade union?

The blame lies entirely with the employer for failing to come up with a fair offer after overseeing a decade long decline in pay and conditions. It really doesn’t matter to me who the employer is, the SG must and can do better.

[wookie70]

If a pay offers is totally derisory then it's not uncommon for it not to be put to members, or put to them with a strong recommendation to reject it. 7.5% in the circumstances was probably looked at as worthy of consideration albeit I suspect there was a feeling it would be rejected.

Even if a pay offer doesn't go to the members there will still be ballots on continuing industrial action, up to and including strikes. The results of those will give an indication of the feeling amongst the membership. An example would probably be the RMT now where support for strike action is slowly but noticeably falling. A deal that is palatable is probably not far away.

The SG may also have said that this was the final offer and the end of negotiations. That is basically what they did with their Civil Servants and imposed the deals. They are coming back to the table now we have a strike mandate and we never put the 5% to members as it was completely derisory. I think 7.5% is enough to ask members but the members have now spoken and the SG will now need to respond.

I hope working people now realise that standing up for yourself is rarely a bad thing to do and the effect lasts for longer than the current dispute. It will be interesting to see what extra Civil Servants will be offered after the year, if anything. I hope the nurses get at least inflation and to be honest that is a completely false figure for the rise in the cost of living at their salary level.

[Paul1642]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64053080

A&E attendances down during the yesterdays strike. My work often has me in A&E for a fair part of the shift and one thing that I always conclude is how many of the people there probably could have waiting to go to minor injures or a GP the following day. If you can wait 4 hours to be triaged and another 4 to be seen, you could quite probably have just waited till the next day. I think if people knew before attending that they would be waiting so long they might reconsider.

It’s not the solution to all of the NHS’s long list of problems but if people understood that A&E is for emergencies, not just any out of hours medical issue, then it would take some of the pressure off the front line and help people who need it to be seen quicker.

[hibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64053080

A&E attendances down during the yesterdays strike. My work often has me in A&E for a fair part of the shift and one thing that I always conclude is how many of the people there probably could have waiting to go to minor injures or a GP the following day. If you can wait 4 hours to be triaged and another 4 to be seen, you could quite probably have just waited till the next day. I think if people knew before attending that they would be waiting so long they might reconsider.

It’s not the solution to all of the NHS’s long list of problems but if people understood that A&E is for emergencies, not just any out of hours medical issue, then it would take some of the pressure off the front line and help people who need it to be seen quicker.

I agree with your point but that assumes you can get a GP appointment, I don’t even bother trying now as they just cut you off with a recorded message saying they’re too busy.

Maybe some who end up at A&E know they shouldn’t be there but they’ve been trying to get through to their GP surgery for 4 weeks and are now desperate enough to wait the 8 hours just to see someone.

[goosano]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64053080

A&E attendances down during the yesterdays strike. My work often has me in A&E for a fair part of the shift and one thing that I always conclude is how many of the people there probably could have waiting to go to minor injures or a GP the following day. If you can wait 4 hours to be triaged and another 4 to be seen, you could quite probably have just waited till the next day. I think if people knew before attending that they would be waiting so long they might reconsider.

It’s not the solution to all of the NHS’s long list of problems but if people understood that A&E is for emergencies, not just any out of hours medical issue, then it would take some of the pressure off the front line and help people who need it to be seen quicker.

In Edinburgh outwith 8-6 Mon-Fri anyone who goes to A & E with a problem more suitable for a GP will be referred through to.the GP out of hours unit.

[Ozyhibby]

In Edinburgh outwith 8-6 Mon-Fri anyone who goes to A & E with a problem more suitable for a GP will be referred through to.the GP out of hours unit.

That should always be the case. [emoji122]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1606280675971276802?s=46&t=6CIfJZ5M0A0tD0Kg_8BVqA

Pay deal to be implemented anyway while discussions continue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Allant1981]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1606280675971276802?s=46&t=6CIfJZ5M0A0tD0Kg_8BVqA

Pay deal to be implemented anyway while discussions continue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Was always going to be the case, same has happened in England already,sure they got theirs in the summer

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64101348

Scottish NHS 'is already dead' says BMA chief.

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64101348

Scottish NHS 'is already dead' says BMA chief.

Unless he's said it elsewhere he doesn't say what he thinks should replace it. I'm not arguing with him, just found it a bit of a rant.

[Ozyhibby]

Unless he's said it elsewhere he doesn't say what he thinks should replace it. I'm not arguing with him, just found it a bit of a rant.

Common from everyone these days. Have a good old moan but offer no solutions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

There is no doubt that funding and staffing are huge issues for the NHS but every experience I have had in recent times suggests inefficiency and errors play a part as well.

I posted above about my experience with a total breakdown in communication between a GP and a dermatology department a while back. Just before Christmas my grandad had a fall, he's 89, has limited mobility and has both vascular dementia and Alzheimer's. He was in a bit of pain so my mum phoned 111, she was on hold for about 2 hours which is actually a good performance by the standards I expect from that service. They arranged a call back from minor injuries who escalated it to A&E. They asked if we could get him to hospital but he has multiple steps inside and outside his property so we said we weren't comfortable moving him. They advised the wait for an ambulance would be 10-15 hours. We accepted this as whilst he was in pain it wasn't an emergency as such. Tbf an ambulance appeared after approx 4 hours and he was triaged on arrival at the hospital. My mum accompanied him to the hospital and after arriving at just after 7pm they were seen at 2am and he was sent for X rays. Results of the X rays were related about 5am and he was then told a further X ray was required, this was done and the result back within 40 mins. Doctors said there were no fractures, arranged to have him sent to orthopedics to speak to an OT and said if they couldn't do anything she wanted him kept in anyway as she wasn't comfortable sending him home without a care package (he's been on the waiting list for one for close to 12 months already). My mum went home after he was moved to a ward about 8am to try and grab some sleep. A couple to hours later she got a call from orthopaedics saying he was to be discharged (it subsequently turned out the OT hadn't been informed of his dementia so took him at his word when he said he could get a bout fine in the house). Patient transport was arranged and my mum went to his house to await him coming home. He got back and the ambulance crew hadn't been informed of the stairs at his property despite my mum mentioning it multiple times so didn't have the right equipment, he had to sit in the back of an ambulance for 2 hours waiting on another ambulance to assist. 2 ambulances tied up off the road because of a breakdown in communication. He was also missing a few of his personal belongings and a Zimmer as the ambulance crew were also unaware of his dementia and took him at his word when he said he had everything.

Once home he was still in a lot of pain. This was Sunday into Monday. On Tuesday my mum received a call from the hospital. The doctor had read his X rays incorrectly and there were in fact 2 fractures, one in his knee and one in his groin. They said that in a younger man they may have opted for surgery but at his age and with his conditions rest was the only option. My mum requested a stronger painkiller as he had been trying to manage 2 fractures with Paracetamol for 2 days. There was agreement a prescription would be sent to his GP. Next day GP knew nothing about it but would call back, no call back. Next day- nothing. Eventually after much chasing a prescription was issued and collected 5 minutes before closing time on 23rd December thanks to a sympathetic GP who took the matter in hand. Had he not my grandad would have endured the entire Christmas shutdown without the medication he needed (we can't just take a chance buying OTC because he is on 9 other tablets).

It just all seemed a bit shambolic and has left my grandad really shaken and seems to have caused his mental state to regress further. I don't blame the staff at all, they were clearly overworked, harassed and tired. I know people who work in the NHS at various levels and there is near universal agreement among them that the system is ****ed from top to bottom. It's inevitable that is going to impact on patient care and outcomes and that impacts all of us.

[weecounty hibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64101348

Scottish NHS 'is already dead' says BMA chief.

Just the Scottish NHS? What does he think about the English, Welsh and NI NHSs?

[WhileTheChief..]

Just the Scottish NHS? What does he think about the English, Welsh and NI NHSs?

He wan't asked. The topic he was discussing was the Scottish NHS.

I think most people realise it has problems up here that have nothing to do with other countries, so maybe we focus on what we're doing and forget about England for a second?

Why are you trying to shift the debate to make it about Indy? There's separate threads for chat already :aok:

[James310]

Just the Scottish NHS? What does he think about the English, Welsh and NI NHSs?

He is Chair of BMA Scotland, not England, Wales or NI. His experience will be in Scotland.

[weecounty hibby]

He wan't asked. The topic he was discussing was the Scottish NHS.

I think most people realise it has problems up here that have nothing to do with other countries, so maybe we focus on what we're doing and forget about England for a second?

Why are you trying to shift the debate to make it about Indy? There's separate threads for chat already :aok:
You mentioned independence not me. Was just curious as to what his take on the other branches of the NHS was. If our NHS is going to die, I would suggest that it is the same over the whole UK. Or do you disagree with that? The NHS as a whole is being deliberately run down by the Tories in my opinion. So to target one branch of it is completely wrong.

[WhileTheChief..]

I have absolutely no idea, nor interest, in what is happening in the A&E dept in Cardiff's or Belfast's hospitals.

We have plenty issues of our own to be concerned about. This thread has been a bit of an eye opener to me reading some of the experiences people have had.

We don't need to look elsewhere or point fingers at anyone else. This is something we can focus on ourselves and try and sort. I'd like us to at least try it.

Quick edit, why do think the Tories, or any govt, would want to "deliberately run down the NHS"?

[Ozyhibby]

We will always be linked with the NHS is England because funding is tied to what they spend on theirs. There is nothing we can do about that. If the UK govt decides to match the pay demands of nurses then we can do so too. Our scope to act independently is very limited.

The NHS does appear to need serious reform but that will likely cost money and again, in Scotland we can’t just magic up extra cash. We will need to wait until England decides it needs it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

I have absolutely no idea, nor interest, in what is happening in the A&E dept in Cardiff's or Belfast's hospitals.

We have plenty issues of our own to be concerned about. This thread has been a bit of an eye opener to me reading some of the experiences people have had.

We don't need to look elsewhere or point fingers at anyone else. This is something we can focus on ourselves and try and sort. I'd like us to at least try it.

Quick edit, why do think the Tories, or any govt, would want to "deliberately run down the NHS"?

Once a service is accepted as being broken it’s much easier to present privatisation as the solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[weecounty hibby]

I have absolutely no idea, nor interest, in what is happening in the A&E dept in Cardiff's or Belfast's hospitals.

We have plenty issues of our own to be concerned about. This thread has been a bit of an eye opener to me reading some of the experiences people have had.

We don't need to look elsewhere or point fingers at anyone else. This is something we can focus on ourselves and try and sort. I'd like us to at least try it.

Quick edit, why do think the Tories, or any govt, would want to "deliberately run down the NHS"?
The Tories are doing it as they did with all the nationalised industries. Under fund it, tell everyone it's broken, only deregulation and market forces can make it better, sell it off, make themselves a heap of money.

[WhileTheChief..]

We will always be linked with the NHS is England because funding is tied to what they spend on theirs. There is nothing we can do about that. If the UK govt decides to match the pay demands of nurses then we can do so too. Our scope to act independently is very limited.

The NHS does appear to need serious reform but that will likely cost money and again, in Scotland we can’t just magic up extra cash. We will need to wait until England decides it needs it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It always comes down to more money though!

Can you ever remember a time when the news hasn't been about the NHS needing more?

Even during Blair's era when the Gov was chucking zillions into it, the call was for more.

We could double the NHS spend on Jan 1 and by Feb 1 we would all be saying more is needed. We could repeat that each year and still the call for more would come.

At some point, we've got to stop and think about what we actually want from our NHS and who is going to pay for it.

The problems aren't always down to the Gov, the public also need to play their part. They could start by going on a diet and listening to the health advice they are given!

[WhileTheChief..]

The Tories are doing it as they did with all the nationalised industries. Under fund it, tell everyone it's broken, only deregulation and market forces can make it better, sell it off, make themselves a heap of money.

Ok, let's follow this though.

What actually gets sold and who makes the money? You mean actual physical assets like the Royal Infirmary? Who is going to buy these assets?

And if what you say came to pass, the money would end up in the Treasury wouldn't it? When British Gas was privatised I don't think Thatcher and co pocketed the cash personally, it went into the UKs coffers no?

You're saying the Tory MPs are somehow financially benefiting from running down the NHS? But the Gov is spending more and more on the NHS, so where is that money going?

I just don't see it. Seems like a wee rant you're having more than anything!

[James310]

The Tories are doing it as they did with all the nationalised industries. Under fund it, tell everyone it's broken, only deregulation and market forces can make it better, sell it off, make themselves a heap of money.

How does giving the NHS record funding equal running it down, wouldn't you award it record low funding? Odd move to fund the NHS with billions more when you want to run it into the ground.

And wouldn't Labour just run on a ticket of vote for us to reverse Tory privatisation and win a landslide forever and a day?

Anyway too late, the NHS was sold to Donald Trump.

[Pretty Boy]

When it comes to NHS privatisation I think it comes down to what you want to believe.

Labour say they are going to abolish the House of Lords - 'they have been saying that for years, surely no one still believes it'

People have been saying the Tories are going to privatise the NHS for as long as I have been able to read or listen to the news. Every election I have ever been aware of it has been the warning. Not the wee stealth privatisations we are all aware of but a full blown sell off and a US insurance style system put in place. Those claims long predate my lifetime as well. Yet it's never happened but people still insist it's just around the corner, much as it has been for 30, 40 or 50 years.

I'm not saying it's not something that is desirable to those who wield power in the Tory party but even among a big chunk of their core support it's a guaranteed vote loser, when all is said and done they still want to win elections and full privatisation of healthcare is a sure fire way to ensure you don't.

[Ozyhibby]

It always comes down to more money though!

Can you ever remember a time when the news hasn't been about the NHS needing more?

Even during Blair's era when the Gov was chucking zillions into it, the call was for more.

We could double the NHS spend on Jan 1 and by Feb 1 we would all be saying more is needed. We could repeat that each year and still the call for more would come.

At some point, we've got to stop and think about what we actually want from our NHS and who is going to pay for it.

The problems aren't always down to the Gov, the public also need to play their part. They could start by going on a diet and listening to the health advice they are given!

There could be a situation where a reform programme is identified as being worthwhile that will save massive amounts of money in the long term but it will cost large sums initially while new systems are put in place. The SG may find itself unable to fund that reform even though it’s a fantastic idea. Unless England wants the same reform then it’s not going to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

In better news....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64116483

[speedy_gonzales]

In better news....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64116483

I should really post this in the "Drug death Scotland" thread, but for those that are interested I'd highly recommend getting a Naloxone kit.
They're completely free to anyone over 16. There is hands on training (15 minutes) available from Crew.scot or if you're comfortable with it, there's eLearning available from various Scottish sites (Google Naloxone Scotland).
It's a small spray that fits comfortably in your pocket.
I opted to get one as I've witnessed opiate overdoses in the past through my work (railway stations mainly) and ignoring the how's and why's over those that consume drugs, this small miracle can buy someone 30 minutes before the emergency services arrive.
Being regularly trained in First Aid, I think this is a no-brainer for the average punter to carry on them.

[CropleyWasGod]

I should really post this in the "Drug death Scotland" thread, but for those that are interested I'd highly recommend getting a Naloxone kit.
They're completely free to anyone over 16. There is hands on training (15 minutes) available from Crew.scot or if you're comfortable with it, there's eLearning available from various Scottish sites (Google Naloxone Scotland).
It's a small spray that fits comfortably in your pocket.
I opted to get one as I've witnessed opiate overdoses in the past through my work (railway stations mainly) and ignoring the how's and why's over those that consume drugs, this small miracle can buy someone 30 minutes before the emergency services arrive.
Being regularly trained in First Aid, I think this is a no-brainer for the average punter to carry on them.

:top marks

[Santa Cruz]

I should really post this in the "Drug death Scotland" thread, but for those that are interested I'd highly recommend getting a Naloxone kit.
They're completely free to anyone over 16. There is hands on training (15 minutes) available from Crew.scot or if you're comfortable with it, there's eLearning available from various Scottish sites (Google Naloxone Scotland).
It's a small spray that fits comfortably in your pocket.
I opted to get one as I've witnessed opiate overdoses in the past through my work (railway stations mainly) and ignoring the how's and why's over those that consume drugs, this small miracle can buy someone 30 minutes before the emergency services arrive.
Being regularly trained in First Aid, I think this is a no-brainer for the average punter to carry on them.

Brilliant post. Link here.

https://www.sfad.org.uk/support-services/take-home-naloxone

[Moulin Yarns]

Well, my experiences with the NHS is 5 star.

I had an episode in August when my heart was racing and I was seen by my gp in a couple of days, referred to the cardiology specialist and seen in October and today I have had an echocardiograph.

Nothing wrong up here.

[James310]

Well, my experiences with the NHS is 5 star.

I had an episode in August when my heart was racing and I was seen by my gp in a couple of days, referred to the cardiology specialist and seen in October and today I have had an echocardiograph.

Nothing wrong up here.

So your experience is typical of everyone in Scotland? You have a habit of doing this don't you? You seriously think because you had a positive experience everyone else does with your "nothing wrong up here" comment. Despite the stats and the story's on here saying otherwise.

Maybe just maybe your experience isn't typical and service across the country is mixed?

[Pretty Boy]

Well, my experiences with the NHS is 5 star.

I had an episode in August when my heart was racing and I was seen by my gp in a couple of days, referred to the cardiology specialist and seen in October and today I have had an echocardiograph.

Nothing wrong up here.

This is a great idea.

Think of the money to be saved on actual analytics and stats when we can just use anecdotal evidence as a barometer instead.

There is a mountain of evidence that points to the NHS in Scotland underperforming, for varied reasons and less so than other areas of the UK admittedly, but Twitter is full of this kind of thing. 'Oi Baillie I was seen in 3 minutes and had a prescription in another 20 seconds so don't dare criticise the SNP' as though positive individual experience offsets wider systemic issues.

[James310]

This is a great idea.

Think of the money to be saved on actual analytics and stats when we can just use anecdotal evidence as a barometer instead.

There is a mountain of evidence that points to the NHS in Scotland underperforming, for varied reasons and less so than other areas of the UK admittedly, but Twitter is full of this kind of thing. 'Oi Baillie I was seen in 3 minutes and had a prescription in another 20 seconds so don't dare criticise the SNP' as though individual experience is relfelctive of wider systemic issues.

I know someone who was treated by Harold Shipman, gave him a prescription for anti biotics and his infection cleared up in no time. Brilliant Doctor he was.

[Hibbyradge]

So your experience is typical of everyone in Scotland? You have a habit of doing this don't you? You seriously think because you had a positive experience everyone else does with your "nothing wrong up here" comment. Despite the stats and the story's on here saying otherwise.

Maybe just maybe your experience isn't typical and service across the country is mixed?

He started his post by saying "My experience of the NHS".

Shouldn't people report positives?

[Pretty Boy]

He started his post by saying "My experience of the NHS".

Shouldn't people report positives?

And finished it by saying 'nothing wrong up here' which reads as refering to far more than personal experience.

[Hibbyradge]

And finished it by saying 'nothing wrong up here' which reads as refering to far more than personal experience.

I thought he was referring to his heart condition! :hilarious

[James310]

He started his post by saying "My experience of the NHS".

Shouldn't people report positives?

And said "nothing wrong up here" using his own personal experience as a barometer for all of the NHS.

[CropleyWasGod]

And said "nothing wrong up here" using his own personal experience as a barometer for all of the NHS.

I read it as a barometer for Perthshire. :cb

[James310]

I read it as a barometer for Perthshire. :cb

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/new-report-urges-sweeping-changes-28464314


All looks good up there.

[weecounty hibby]

This will likely be my last post on this but in my extensive experience of being a patient and also having a daughter who has a rare, severe, lifelong syndrome the surgeons, Drs, nurses, porters, cleaners etc are all being badly let down by the system, the management teams, the processes behind getting appointments, infrastructure, lower than deserved salaries and Brexit reducing numbers working in NHS. The waste within the NHS is a scandal.

I have had stellar service from the NHS whenever I've needed it. My daughter has had care that would have bankrupt us if we lived in the states, her last op was her 30th, she sees consultants in a number of specialities and has had fabulous care from her birth right up until the present day.

My wife was a nurse until giving up to look after our daughter so we know a bit about the NHS. Flip side is that my wife has had pretty shoddy service recently. Mostly from GP receptionists who seem to be the gatekeepers and almost as if tasked with keeping folk away from the GP, but also by the GP once seen and also a cardiologist. But this is an isolated incident for us. We have had, as a family, exceptional care from the NHS. I don't agree that the NHS is going "to die". It does need an overhaul of how it operates however I firmly believe that it can be fixed.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/new-report-urges-sweeping-changes-28464314


All looks good up there.

Edit... I now read it as a barometer for all people without breast cancer in MY's part of Perthshire. :greengrin

[Jay]

Well, my experiences with the NHS is 5 star.

I had an episode in August when my heart was racing and I was seen by my gp in a couple of days, referred to the cardiology specialist and seen in October and today I have had an echocardiograph.

Nothing wrong up here.

Delighted for you and your wee bubble. I'm an NHS worker, it's on its knees as are almost every member of staff I've worked with. I'm also a patient and been incredibly lucky to have had the treatment I have had , I waited for operations way longer than I should have but it's all worked out fine. What's not fine is that my elderly mother had sats of 80 to 83 and was given oxygen and dismissed 3 weeks in a row until I said I wasn't collecting her until she had seen a respiratory consultant, she also spent 2 of those nights in a makeshift room with no window , essentially a cupboard. The staff walk out every day hoping they'd done enough to cover the basics.

[grunt]

The problems aren't always down to the Gov, the public also need to play their part. They could start by going on a diet and listening to the health advice they are given!
:greengrin It's the fault of the patients! Genius.

[Moulin Yarns]

He started his post by saying "My experience of the NHS".

Shouldn't people report positives?

Thanks, I'll buy you a pint if you are in York between tomorrow and Tuesday. 👍

[grunt]

Quick edit, why do think the Tories, or any govt, would want to "deliberately run down the NHS"?
You are surely not so naive to post this?

[OldEast]

You are surely not so naive to post this?

One of the most incredible things I've read for ages 🥴

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/new-report-urges-sweeping-changes-28464314


All looks good up there.

Do you have anything more recent?

[James310]

Do you have anything more recent?

Like weekly stats? Knock yourself out.

https://www.publichealthscotland.scot/publications/nhs-performs-weekly-update-of-emergency-department-activity-and-waiting-time-statistics/nhs-performs-weekly-update-of-emergency-department-activity-and-waiting-time-statistics-week-ending-18-december-2022/

If genuinely think there isn't a problem with the NHS all because of your own personal experience with it then I am not sure anything would convince you otherwise if that is the extent of your thinking and mindset. A bizarre way of looking at things. Ignore the stats, the experiences of others and even the staff who say there is a problem.

[James310]

You are surely not so naive to post this?

To flip this question around why do you think the Tory's have failed to full on privatise the NHS after so many years and having so many opportunities to do so?

[OldEast]

To flip this question around why do you think the Tory's have failed to full on privatise the NHS after so many years and having so many opportunities to do so?

Because that would be the one thing that would guarantee political wilderness for a long time. The steady underfunding and quietly selling bits off will get them to where they want to be whilst persuading the gullible electorate it's all inevitable.

[James310]

Because that would be the one thing that would guarantee political wilderness for a long time. The steady underfunding and quietly selling bits off will get them to where they want to be whilst persuading the gullible electorate it's all inevitable.

So why would you announce record funding for something if you actually wanted to underfund it? Surely you would announce record low funding?

[James310]

The Tory's are doing a really bad job of privatising the NHS in England!

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/health-and-social-care-england-myths

Myth-Some, mainly left-wing, commentators have argued for many years that the NHS is being privatised.

Private companies have always played a role in the NHS, with services such as dentistry, optical care and community pharmacy being provided by the private sector for decades, and most GP practices are private partnerships. The NHS and the private sector have also established partnerships for the delivery of clinical services such as radiology and pathology and non-clinical services such as car parking and management of buildings and the estate, while independent hospitals have been used under successive governments to provide additional capacity in response to pressures on NHS services.

Identifying how much the NHS spends on the private sector is not straightforward but estimates can be made using data from the annual accounts of the Department of Health and Social Care.

Following the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which extended market-based principles and introduced more competition into the NHS, the number of contracts awarded to private providers increased. However, this did not lead to an increase in the proportion of the NHS budget spent on private providers, in large part because the majority of contracts tended to be smaller than those awarded to NHS providers. In 2019/20, before the pandemic, NHS commissioners spent £9.7 billion, or 7.2 per cent of the Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget on services delivered by the private sector. This proportion has remained largely unchanged since 2012.

Throughout the Covid-19 pandemic, the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS entered into new contractual arrangements with the independent hospital sector to increase capacity. These arrangements provided access to additional beds, staff and equipment to treat patients during the peak of the pandemic and are being used now in some places to support efforts to reduce how long people wait for routine care. As a result, spending by NHS commissioners on services delivered by the private sector increased to £12.2 billion in 2020/21. However, in the context of the significant additional funding provided in response to the pandemic, this again represents only around 7 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care revenue budget.

The Health and Care Act 2022 removed the competition and market-based approaches introduced by the 2012 Act. This gives commissioners greater flexibility over when to use competitive procurement processes, reducing the frequency with which clinical services are put out to tender and allowing contracts to be rolled over where the existing provider, most likely to be an NHS provider, is doing a good job.

Verdict:
There is no evidence of widespread privatisation of NHS services. The proportion of the NHS budget spent on services delivered by the private sector has remained broadly stable over the past decade.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Tory's are doing a really bad job of privatising the NHS in England!



Thread hijack alert. :greengrin

In the spirit of the season, can I respectfully ask that you make a New Year's resolution to spell that word properly in 2023? I can take us having differing views, but those apostrophes have been ripping my knitting all year. :faf:

Thanks :aok:

[Hibby Bairn]

Amongst all the doom and gloom 🙂.

I'm a very infrequent user of the NHS...luckily kept good health throughout my life so far.

But had to contact my GP this morning. First time in over 5 years. A bit of triage from the trained receptionist followed by a call back from the Doctor within 30 mins and in for a face to face appointment 2 hours later.

👍

[WhileTheChief..]

:greengrin It's the fault of the patients! Genius.


You don't think people should take some responsibility for their own health?

Our health record is a disgrace. That's nothing to do with governments, here or at Westminster.

It's on us collectively.

[WhileTheChief..]

One of the most incredible things I've read for ages 🥴

Help me understand?

I don't see why any Gov would want to deliberately run down their country's health service. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Sounds too much like loony left tin foil stuff to be remotely true.

What am I missing?

[Moulin Yarns]

Just to add from earlier. Yes, I was talking about my own, very good, experience in a rural area and appreciate that in cities you may well have a different experience but when someone tells you that the whole of the NHS is ****ed then I would disagree.

Some specific areas are struggling more than others, we keep hearing about A&E but the problem is getting people out of hospital into a care environment, whether at home or elsewhere. Remember the phrase 'bed blocking'?

I appreciate that other people don't have the same good experiences but I have nothing but praise for the NHS.

[Mibbes Aye]

There could be a situation where a reform programme is identified as being worthwhile that will save massive amounts of money in the long term but it will cost large sums initially while new systems are put in place. The SG may find itself unable to fund that reform even though it’s a fantastic idea. Unless England wants the same reform then it’s not going to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SG has attempted two major policy reforms in health and social care in the last 10 years in this context.

The first, Reshaping Care for Older People, came with £300m of change monies to support a shift away from the reactive and from secondary or acute care (hospitals essentially) to the proactive and primary and social care.

The good in it was it recognised that there were broader factors beyond health and social care that create and can address unmet need - stuff linked to communities, to housing, to health promotion, work of the third sector etc.

The bad was that it didn’t shift anything fundamentally or structurally and was almost immediately subsumed by the second initiative around health and social care integration.

This had the same aims with perhaps a greater sense of urgency but the starting place was challenging, with the newly created integration authorities expected to deliver significant savings.

The good in it was a requirement to consider how needs could be met at a local level, smaller than the local authority area and health board area.

The bad was that it became all about structure and systems, not about practice or about the experiences of people accessing services.

Essentially both initiatives have proven unable to fully deliver the benefits they were intended or required to. Part of that is about poor implementation and too much focus on systems and processes. A big part of it was about empty rhetoric around localism, making the third sector a meaningful partner and empowering people and communities.

I think resolving all this would be a challenge for any administration, but they do have lots of levers, they just aren’t using them properly IMO.

[Moulin Yarns]

SG has attempted two major policy reforms in health and social care in the last 10 years in this context.

The first, Reshaping Care for Older People, came with £300m of change monies to support a shift away from the reactive and from secondary or acute care (hospitals essentially) to the proactive and primary and social care.

The good in it was it recognised that there were broader factors beyond health and social care that create and can address unmet need - stuff linked to communities, to housing, to health promotion, work of the third sector etc.

The bad was that it didn’t shift anything fundamentally or structurally and was almost immediately subsumed by the second initiative around health and social care integration.

This had the same aims with perhaps a greater sense of urgency but the starting place was challenging, with the newly created integration authorities expected to deliver significant savings.

The good in it was a requirement to consider how needs could be met at a local level, smaller than the local authority area and health board area.

The bad was that it became all about structure and systems, not about practice or about the experiences of people accessing services.

Essentially both initiatives have proven unable to fully deliver the benefits they were intended or required to. Part of that is about poor implementation and too much focus on systems and processes. A big part of it was about empty rhetoric around localism, making the third sector a meaningful partner and empowering people and communities.

I think resolving all this would be a challenge for any administration, but they do have lots of levers, they just aren’t using them properly IMO.

I don't always agree with you (probably never) but it sounds like you have experience in this area. I agree with the localisation of services in every sector, not just NHS and care.

Probably too far too quickly, is everything decided at council ward level for most local services apart from infrastructure.

Remembering that I live in Highland Perthshire and the needs are different to the city of Perth

[grunt]

I don't see why any Gov would want to deliberately run down their country's health service. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't see why any Gov would want to deliberately cut off their economy from their nearest and biggest trading partner and make it so much harder for companies to do business with their biggest market. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[James310]

I don't see why any Gov would want to deliberately cut off their economy from their nearest and biggest trading partner and make it so much harder for companies to do business with their biggest market. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

You have just described Scottish Independence. Agreed, makes no sense.

The UK is our biggest trading partner and market.

[grunt]

You have just described Scottish Independence. Agreed, makes no sense.

The UK is our biggest trading partner and market.

Wrong thread. And wrong answer. Who says we'll cut ourselves off from the UK market? Don't judge Scotland by the mistakes made by the Tories.

Anyway, that wasn't the point I was making, so please don't take this thread off track.

[grunt]

You have just described Scottish Independence. Agreed, makes no sense.

What are you so scared of?

[James310]

What are you so scared of?

Thought it was the wrong thread?

Same as you, putting up barriers with your biggest trading partners. Now if you want to parrot the Brexiteers lines that said everything will be fine you can do so.

Did you ask the remainers what they were scared of? Turns out they were right to be scared.

But one for the Brexit or Indy thread.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't always agree with you (probably never) but it sounds like you have experience in this area. I agree with the localisation of services in every sector, not just NHS and care.

Probably too far too quickly, is everything decided at council ward level for most local services apart from infrastructure.

Remembering that I live in Highland Perthshire and the needs are different to the city of Perth

Rurality and remoteness are real issues for a significant part of the population and it seems fair to say that won’t be true for a lot of posters on here :greengrin

As far as it goes I have a lot of family in Perthshire, as well as Perth and a lot of family in Highland.

As a consequence I smile when I read some posters on here talking about decisions bending made about their lives away down at Westminster. For the family I have in Inverness they feel that the Central Belt gets priority over them. People in Wick feel it is all about Inverness, with Raigmore and all the Council and SG/UK services. People in Thurso feel it is all about Wick, with their Caithness General Hospital and the like. People in Halkirk feel it is all about Thurso and so on and so on.

I think there are two issues here - one about health services being accessible for the rural and remote, and one about decision-making and accountability sitting as closely as possible, while retaining the overarching structural capacity to do the big things like planning where general hospitals are built.

There are aspects of the former that are done well already, though still with a way to go. For the latter it feels like there is a lot of lip service and a lot of front to deflect from fundamentally poor performance, whether you measure it in the sum of patient outcomes, the money spent or worst of all, the reactive costs because A didn’t share information with B, or because planning and spend are very narrowly-based.

I think you mentioned delayed discharge earlier. We have targets, based on length of delay, set in Scotland by Scottish ministers that we spectacularly fail to meet and have missed for ever. The gathering and reporting of that data and the politics of it dominate the health agenda, but there is precious little focus on successful discharge, other than using re-admission rates as a proxy.

That’s the kind of mindset that needs addressing.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don't see why any Gov would want to deliberately cut off their economy from their nearest and biggest trading partner and make it so much harder for companies to do business with their biggest market. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Nope.I was hoping you could just help out for once. Too much to ask I guess.

I don't care about indy nearly as much as you. I could almost go so far as to say i don't really care at all anymore. You're obsessed. No matter what the topic is, you bring it round to Indy. Give it a damn rest.

The thread is about the NHS.

I don't believe for a second that any Uk Gov wants to sell it off. It could have been done any time in my lifetime but it's not even been discussed other than by folk like you with your conspiracy theories.

[grunt]

I don't care about indy nearly as much as you. I could almost go so far as to say i don't really care at all anymore. You're obsessed. No matter what the topic is, you bring it round to Indy. Give it a damn rest.

The thread is about the NHS.

I don't believe for a second that any Uk Gov wants to sell it off. It could have been done any time in my lifetime but it's not even been discussed other than by folk like you with your conspiracy theories.Language.

I'm amazed that you think I was talking about independence. I certainly was not. Looking back, I see that James310 misled you by completely misinterpreting my post, but you clearly didn't read it properly either.

My point was that this Tory Gov is only in politics for their own enrichment. Brexit was about freeing UK business from "onerous" regulation - regulation designed to keep the consumer safe. The same applies to the NHS.

Many ERG members have spoken openly that they believe the NHS should be privatised, Sunak spent day in meetings in the US with healthcare providers, what was he talking about? Many of the ERG members spout the "too expensive"' line - you yourself used the same argument a few posts earlier.

I am in no doubt whatsoever that this fascist Tory Gov is running down the NHS by starving it of funding in order to increase the privatisation of the health service. The objective of this is so that their friends in the insurance and private healthcare companies can benefit. If you're happy to pay for every stitch and every pill and every consultation you're given in hospital, well good for you. Have a look at the US to see how many people become personally bankrupt due to huge hospital bills. We once had a world leading national health service free at the point of need which has been brought to ruin by this Tory Gov and far too many people in this country couldn't care less.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlO_2sHXEAINWPP?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dani-garavelli-eyewitness-to-the-stark-reality-of-scottish-nhs-in-crisis-3970512


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paul1642]

I think there is pretty much universal agreement that NHS Scotland is on its knees and that the service being provided to the general public is far below what we all want.

What there seems to be less agreement / discussion on in how on Earth do we fix it?

The solution of throwing more money is pretty difficult at the moment due to the fact that there isn’t really any spare money. The whole public sector is stretched hard right now and there isn’t really anywhere to divert money from. We can’t allow the already struggling schools, police and councils (and the rest) to became any more underfunded to divert money to the NHS.

The general public is stretched hard also and there aren’t many who would fancy a rise in taxes. We have already reversed the 0.5% NI increase.

The Scottish social care annual budget stands at £18bn - by far the biggest proportion of Scotland's overall budget (from BBC nov 2022). If 18bn has us in the mess we are right now we are talking billions, not millions to resolve things and that money simply isn’t going to be found.

That only leaves reform. Clearly we want to have a version of the NHS resembling the current system but something needs to give. I’m just not really sure what.

There could be an argument for means testing certain treatments however you would be pretty pissed at paying £250 a month NI on top of the £300 your employer pays only to be told that you need to pay for your treatment.

The American system is a disgrace that doesn’t even warrant discussion.

What does that leave? I don’t know if there is even an answer to the question to be honest.

[Hibs4185]

I was in A&E last year waiting to get registered at reception. There was a shift change and the new receptionist changed the ink in both printers. Apparently they change them at the start of every shift so as they don’t run out in an emergency.

They were replaced with brand new cartridges from the manufacturer.

The point I’m getting at, is that there must br a staggering amount of waste in the NHS. I know the systems are in place to ensure a smooth delivery of service but if something so simple as ink cartridges can produce so much waste then I’d hate to look deeper into it.

But they’d probably to have open an efficiency office which would then spend the same amount on staff etc as it would actually save in the long run.

[neil7908]

Stories now are 300-400 a week dying due to delays in treatment, A and E etc.

Imagine the reaction if there was a terrorist attack every week with that many people dying?

I despair at this country at the moment. We have just accepted our slide into crises with a shrug.

[OldEast]

Stories now are 300-400 a week dying due to delays in treatment, A and E etc.

Imagine the reaction if there was a terrorist attack every week with that many people dying?

I despair at this country at the moment. We have just accepted our slide into crises with a shrug.

More than accepted. Actively supported it by voting tory

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1609864817300639746?s=46&t=JkJflG1sQT1aNiSdzLJVOw

This is an interesting thread. Put it in here as wasn’t sure it merited its own thread and ties into NHS anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk