Netflix - Jimmy Saville

[WhileTheChief..]

Anyone started watching this yet?

Horrific.

[Mcbizz1998]

Anyone started watching this yet?

Horrific.

On episode 1 at the moment. It’s fairly setting the scene, still to get to any of his crimes.

Suppose it’s maybe aimed at a world wide audience who might not know who he is?

[overdrive]

On episode 1 at the moment. It’s fairly setting the scene, still to get to any of his crimes.

Suppose it’s maybe aimed at a world wide audience who might not know who he is?

Nah it’ll be following the typical Netflix documentary formula (as per my recent post on the Pet Peeves thread) of drawing everything out and repeating things over and over again to justify a series rather than a one off special.

[Kato]

When did yooz get told about the horrors?

At school, a pals Dad was in the Army he'd disappear abroad for a few months then come back when his Dad was stationed back here. He told us about the nonce stuff mid-70's from a rumour he'd picked up on his travels. A mate's sister worked in Stroke Mandible Hospital, she came up for a boozy weekend party in the summer of 1984 and told us about the necro stuff. His excuse for being locked in the morgue at night was that he "praying" over the bodies, preying more like.

Forever the press have told us that he was "popular" on the TV. He might have been on TV but I've never met anyone who was a fan, quite the opposite.

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[stu in nottingham]

When did yooz get told about the horrors?

At school, a pals Dad was in the Army he'd disappear abroad for a few months then come back when his Dad was stationed back here. He told us about the nonce stuff mid-70's from a rumour he'd picked up on his travels. A mate's sister worked in Stroke Mandible Hospital, she came up for a boozy weekend party in the summer of 1984 and told us about the necro stuff. His excuse for being locked in the morgue at night was that he "praying" over the bodies, preying more like.

Forever the press have told us that he was "popular" on the TV. He might have been on TV but I've never met anyone who was a fan, quite the opposite.

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Recal reading a story about him taking young girls into his caravan/trailer in the Sunday People in the early 1970s. Rumours abounded even then of his penchant for necrophilia.

In the early 1990s I was running a London Marathon and staying overnight in a hotel in Blackheath with a few older mates from the running club, this being their custom. They mentioned that Savile also stayed there when he was running. To a man they hated him for his arrogant behaviour. Sure enough when we got there he had set up court in the hotel lobby, revelling in the attention sitting there in his stupid shell suit and covered in bling. Detestable, obnoxious bloke.

[Kato]

Recal reading a story about him taking young girls into his caravan/trailer in the Sunday People in the early 1970s. Rumours abounded even then of his penchant for necrophilia.

In the early 1990s I was running a London Marathon and staying overnight in a hotel in Blackheath with a few older mates from the running club, this being their custom. They mentioned that Savile also stayed there when he was running. To a man they hated him for his arrogant behaviour. Sure enough when we got there he had set up court in the hotel lobby, revelling in the attention sitting there in his stupid shell suit and covered in bling. Detestable, obnoxious bloke.In a discussion on twitter a while back someone described this as "folk knowledge", which is a great turn of phrase. The subject of his doings has came up again at work and even the younger ones who were at school before he died remember their parents telling them that he was a creep.




But the people back then who considered themselves the establishment never heard a thing - seemingly.

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[Killiehibbie]

Johnny Rotten told everybody and got barred from the BBC for years.

[Kato]

Johnny Rotten told everybody and got barred from the BBC for years.He told the people in the studio, that part of the interview was only revealed this century, wasn't aired at the time. He appeared on the BBC afterwards, so I don't know about him being banned.

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[Killiehibbie]

He told the people in the studio, that part of the interview was only revealed this century, wasn't aired at the time. He appeared on the BBC afterwards, so I don't know about him being banned.

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He says himself that he found he was banned.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4OzI9GYag0

[Kato]

He says himself that he found he was banned.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4OzI9GYag0

Looked around for the story. He wasn't banned from the BBC but claims to have been banned from BBC Radio. The unaired interview took place in 1978, Public Image had a John Peel Session in 1979 then were on the old grey whistle test in 1980 (classic)

https://youtu.be/aDKDc5zq53k

I love John as a fan of a lot of his music but he is capable of talking pesh/himself up.

At least he said something, like I said it was folk knowledge. It wasn't very often 'folk' were asked to air their views back then, now, its too much.

Just a note to say the family of the lady who is allowed to wear the metal hat, unlike Lydon, actually knew Savile well. They said nowt and neither did the lady who is allowed to wear the metal hat. Maybe because it was folk knowledge and they are not folk. They are the people the folk are obliged to bow and scrape to.


https://i.ibb.co/6vRqY0k/20220407-023039.jpg

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[hibsbollah]

I remember Doddie, who no longer posts on here, telling us that his father worked for scotrail and Saville was known to ask for girls to be ‘procured’ for him. That was before the abuse was made public and I recall Doddie took some flak for it, it may even have been on a RIP thread. Insane it was so widely known about but swept under the carpet even relatively recently.

[lapsedhibee]

I remember Doddie, who no longer posts on here, telling us that his father worked for scotrail and Saville was known to ask for girls to be ‘procured’ for him. That was before the abuse was made public and I recall Doddie took some flak for it, it may even have been on a RIP thread. Insane it was so widely known about but swept under the carpet even relatively recently.

Yes, remember Doddie's posting about that with some disgust. (Don't recall him getting flak for it though.)

[green leaves]

Looked around for the story. He wasn't banned from the BBC but claims to have been banned from BBC Radio. The unaired interview took place in 1978, Public Image had a John Peel Session in 1979 then were on the old grey whistle test in 1980 (classic)

https://youtu.be/aDKDc5zq53k

I love John as a fan of a lot of his music but he is capable of talking pesh/himself up.

At least he said something, like I said it was folk knowledge. It wasn't very often 'folk' were asked to air their views back then, now, its too much.

Just a note to say the family of the lady who is allowed to wear the metal hat, unlike Lydon, actually knew Savile well. They said nowt and neither did the lady who is allowed to wear the metal hat. Maybe because it was folk knowledge and they are not folk. They are the people the folk are obliged to bow and scrape to.


https://i.ibb.co/6vRqY0k/20220407-023039.jpg

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Peel was a self confessed paedophile

[Colr]

Anyone started watching this yet?

Horrific.

Does it have him at Margaret Thatcher’s for Christmas dinner?

[green leaves]

Does it have him at Margaret Thatcher’s for Christmas dinner? or being Prince Charles best mate?

[Colr]

or being Prince Charles best mate?

We’re rules by freaks!

[Hibernia&Alba]

I remember Doddie, who no longer posts on here, telling us that his father worked for scotrail and Saville was known to ask for girls to be ‘procured’ for him. That was before the abuse was made public and I recall Doddie took some flak for it, it may even have been on a RIP thread. Insane it was so widely known about but swept under the carpet even relatively recently.

That would make it all the more disturbing. If a lot of people knew, including some with influence, how was he allowed to continue? It reflects terribly on our society.

[WhileTheChief..]

or being Prince Charles best mate?

Yes to both.

Pals with the Beatles and Stones. Met the Pope. Friends with Diana, an 'adviser' to Charles and Prince Phillip.

Absolutely sickening seeing it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yes to both.

Pals with the Beatles and Stones. Met the Pope. Friends with Diana, an 'adviser' to Charles and Prince Phillip.

Absolutely sickening seeing it.

Put in charge of Broadmoor by Edwina Currie. It's just bizarre.

[Stairway 2 7]

Like some priests people ignored the facts due to the charity. Large donations to Broadmoor, Stoke mandival and even our own St pats in the Cowgate, let him run free. It's not new if your popular and famous. As said above John peel, elvis, Led Zeppelin and half the stars of the 70s it seems

[JimBHibees]

We’re rules by freaks!

No doubt about it

[Stairway 2 7]

Ruled by lizards are we not, or is that for the conspiracy thread. Although watching the maxwell documentary on the iplayer, Andrew certainly belongs in this thread

[He's here!]

In a discussion on twitter a while back someone described this as "folk knowledge", which is a great turn of phrase. The subject of his doings has came up again at work and even the younger ones who were at school before he died remember their parents telling them that he was a creep.




But the people back then who considered themselves the establishment never heard a thing - seemingly.

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It's not as if it was even 'back then' (as in a dim and distant past) as he only died in 2011. Until then he was widely deemed a great British eccentric who raised millions for charity and (as far as I can see) more or less funded the building of the hospital where many of his alleged crimes took place. I say alleged only because IIRC he wasn't pulled up for a single one during his lifetime. Extraordinary.

[Pretty Boy]

Let's be honest we all knew.

There is being a bit odd and then there is sexually assaulting someone live on TV. The Colleen Nolan footage has done the rounds over the years but there is plenty other footage. The same is true of Gary Glitter. His This is Your Life episode contains an excutiating section in which a family 'friend' tells of queues of schoolgirls waiting to entering his bedroom when he stayed at her house. You can see the power she holds over him and you can see the fear he has about what she will say. In the end she tells a banal anecdote about them wanting photos but he knows, she knows and anyone who watches it knows.

It's a bizarre thing that we seemed to be quite relaxed about sexual assault, ephebophilia and, to a lesser extent, paedophilia as a society until relatively recently. Arguably we still are if someone is famous enough. Whilst some have faced justice, many other still walk free, some mentioned on this thread. Often with the cop out that you can't judge people by the standards of a different era. I think, and hope, most people in the 60s, 70s and 80s still believed abusing women, teenagers and children was wrong. The other night Louis CK won an award despite admitting sexual misconduct throughout his career. Chris Brown has been honoured by the same body several times despite being a wife beater. Roman Polanski still makes films and lives freely despite his conviction for raping a 13 year old. Let's not even get started on Woody Allen and Michael Jackson......

[hibsbollah]

Let's be honest we all knew.



We absolutely didnt all know. :confused: It certainly came as a surprise to me and everyone i knew who grew up with his stupid face plastered all over TV on a literally three times a weekly basis. Unless by 'we', you mean 'people in authority'?

[Pretty Boy]

We absolutely didnt all know. :confused: It certainly came as a surprise to me and everyone i knew who grew up with his stupid face plastered all over TV on a literally three times a weekly basis. Unless by 'we', you mean 'people in authority'?

Maybe it's a generational thing. I was first aware of Saville well after his heyday. Jim'll Fix It was still on TV when I was very young but beyond that my exposure to Saville was largely limited to TOTP2 and him prancing about annoying people at the London Marathon every year. Most people I ever heard talk about him on the rare occasion he came up prefixed his name with 'that paedo. I suppose had I grown up when he was a TV regular and the full propaganda machine was in working order I might have seen him differently though, the good old British eccentric.

Even then though I still find it hard to believe people didn't have suspicions. Unless it was a case of hiding in plain sight. I remember reading Ecstasy by Irvine Welsh, written in 1996, which features a children's TV presenter called Freddie Royle, he has a heavy regional accent and also happens to be a necrophiliac. I immediately recognised him as Jimmy Saville, there wasn't even a moments hesitation in my mind that that was who the character was based on. I read the book sometime in the early 00s so well before the exposure of Saville was complete. More recently when Louis Theroux revisited his Saville documentary after his death he admitted that the original documentary had troubled him both at the time and after. he admitted he saw Saville behave inappropriately, heard him disclose things and chose to edit out footage of him becoming aggressive and threatening. Largely because of who he was.

I get that paedophiles and rapists are often wholly convincing, they have to be. However Saville wasn't trying to play the respectable role. He said the wrong things openly, he groped people openly, he essentially rubbed peoples faces in it. Deep down the vast majority of people must have been troubled by and suspicious of his behaviour even if the true extent of it was still a shock to them.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe it's a generational thing. I was first aware of Saville well after his heyday. Jim'll Fix It was still on TV when I was very young but beyond that my exposure to Saville was largely limited to TOTP2 and him prancing about annoying people at the London Marathon every year. Most people I ever heard talk about him on the rare occasion he came up prefixed his name with 'that paedo. I suppose had I grown up when he was a TV regular and the full propaganda machine was in working order I might have seen him differently though, the good old British eccentric.

Even then though I still find it hard to believe people didn't have suspicions. Unless it was a case of hiding in plain sight. I remember reading Ecstasy by Irvine Welsh, written in 1996, which features a children's TV presenter called Freddie Royle, he has a heavy regional accent and also happens to be a necrophiliac. I immediately recognised him as Jimmy Saville, there wasn't even a moments hesitation in my mind that that was who the character was based on. I read the book sometime in the early 00s so well before the exposure of Saville was complete. More recently when Louis Theroux revisited his Saville documentary after his death he admitted that the original documentary had troubled him both at the time and after. he admitted he saw Saville behave inappropriately, heard him disclose things and chose to edit out footage of him becoming aggressive and threatening. Largely because of who he was.

I get that paedophiles and rapists are often wholly convincing, they have to be. However Saville wasn't trying to play the respectable role. He said the wrong things openly, he groped people openly, he essentially rubbed peoples faces in it. Deep down the vast majority of people must have been troubled by and suspicious of his behaviour even if the true extent of it was still a shock to them.

I watched the Theroux programme first time round and he was broadly charmed by JS, he liked and believed him and Theroux was bothered by that later. So he had doubts but he discounted them.

I think it is a generational thing. He was way more ubiquitous than someone like Graham Norton is now, he was literally always on TV, TOTP, Jim'll Fix It, game shows, Radio one roadshows. For the average TV watcher he was just a self publicist whose eccentricity was part of his act. The vast majority saw him that way. I think his secret was he had some very high up people covering for him ( a weird combination of politicians, police, organised crime figures, media types and pop music svengalis) and his complainants and victims were obviously too threatened to take things further. I have absolutely no confidence that it couldnt happen again; the #metoo movement seems to have passed a lot of people by when you read the papers.

[Santa Cruz]

I watched the Theroux programme first time round and he was broadly charmed by JS, he liked and believed him and Theroux was bothered by that later. So he had doubts but he discounted them.

I think it is a generational thing. He was way more ubiquitous than someone like Graham Norton is now, he was literally always on TV, TOTP, Jim'll Fix It, game shows, Radio one roadshows. For the average TV watcher he was just a self publicist whose eccentricity was part of his act. The vast majority saw him that way. I think his secret was he had some very high up people covering for him ( a weird combination of politicians, police, organised crime figures, media types and pop music svengalis) and his complainants and victims were obviously too threatened to take things further. I have absolutely no confidence that it couldnt happen again; the #metoo movement seems to have passed a lot of people by when you read the papers.

Agree with most of this this post. I would have done anything to be picked for Jim'll Fix It, just thought of him as an eccentric type. When he died, I text my pal to say what a shame, loved JFI as a bairn etc, they came right back and said thought he was creepy, so I think some in our generation did sense something uneasy about his TV persona.
A bit of unrelated trivia, my daughter saw Louis Theroux at Stormzy's gig at the Hydro this week, was there on his own just holding his jacket obliging people with selfies, she thought he was "so cool":greengrin.

[Stairway 2 7]

Must be generational because likewise I was too young to remember him in his prime, but thought he was a weirdo. We had constant things about strangers and people touching you at primary and secondary. If a guy came up to us playing in the links to ask a question, everyone would be shouting pedo. If Andy Peters was to tickle and hug girls we'd be like wtf. Think it would be much harder to happen now thankfully. Although I believe the vast majority of molestation happens in the home

[AltheHibby]

I can't imagine how bad the staff must feel.

This happened just around the corner from where I lived at the time. According to the staff in the co-op shop a few doors down it had a horrific affect on their colleagues.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/live-khuram-sex-dead-body-15758144

[WhileTheChief..]

Maybe it's a generational thing. I was first aware of Saville well after his heyday. Jim'll Fix It was still on TV when I was very young but beyond that my exposure to Saville was largely limited to TOTP2 and him prancing about annoying people at the London Marathon every year. Most people I ever heard talk about him on the rare occasion he came up prefixed his name with 'that paedo. I suppose had I grown up when he was a TV regular and the full propaganda machine was in working order I might have seen him differently though, the good old British eccentric.

.

I don't think that was the case.

People 'knew' but there was zero evidence to anything. It was all rumour and hearsay.

Look at the crowds that greeted him, even in the 90s. The general public definitely did not know. The country was totally shocked when it all came out.

Watching this now, its amazing / awful just how many celebrities knew him. He was everywhere.

Andrew Neil was one of a few who tried to find out more. Despite Jimmy saying he led the playboy lifestyle and got lots of girls, the press never found a single woman who went with him.

[Coco Bryce]

Johnny Rotten told everybody and got barred from the BBC for years.

Jerry Sadowitz called out Saville on TV in 1987!

[bawheid]

Andrew Neil was one of a few who tried to find out more. Despite Jimmy saying he led the playboy lifestyle and got lots of girls, the press never found a single woman who went with him.

That was a really interesting segment of the documentary. Say what you like about Andrew Neil but he’s a fantastic sharp forensic interviewer. You felt that if he’d just pressed a bit further he would have exposed Savile. Neil clearly felt that too, and regrets not going further.

Looking back on it, it seems so obvious. I’m in the section of population who didn’t see it at the time.

[Smartie]

That was a really interesting segment of the documentary. Say what you like about Andrew Neil but he’s a fantastic sharp forensic interviewer. You felt that if he’d just pressed a bit further he would have exposed Savile. Neil clearly felt that too, and regrets not going further.

Looking back on it, it seems so obvious. I’m in the section of population who didn’t see it at the time.

Does Andrew Neil not have a few skeletons of his own in this particular closet?

[bawheid]

Does Andrew Neil not have a few skeletons of his own in this particular closet?

Does he? Never knew that!
I clearly walk around with my head in the clouds.

[He's here!]

I watched the Theroux programme first time round and he was broadly charmed by JS, he liked and believed him and Theroux was bothered by that later. So he had doubts but he discounted them.

I think it is a generational thing. He was way more ubiquitous than someone like Graham Norton is now, he was literally always on TV, TOTP, Jim'll Fix It, game shows, Radio one roadshows. For the average TV watcher he was just a self publicist whose eccentricity was part of his act. The vast majority saw him that way. I think his secret was he had some very high up people covering for him ( a weird combination of politicians, police, organised crime figures, media types and pop music svengalis) and his complainants and victims were obviously too threatened to take things further. I have absolutely no confidence that it couldnt happen again; the #metoo movement seems to have passed a lot of people by when you read the papers.


I agree. Jim'll Fix It and TOTP were staple fixtures of my childhood and while, yes, I think it's fair to say he looked a bit creepy with his horrible hairstyle and chomping those big cigars, it never even crossed my young mind that such horrors were lurking (barely) below the surface. You just saw him as an omnipresent public figure, nothing more. Certainly not true to say we 'all knew', although plenty have queued up since then to claim they knew he was dodgy. If they really knew then it's bamboozling that he went unchallenged for pretty much his whole adult life.

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree. Jim'll Fix It and TOTP were staple fixtures of my childhood and while, yes, I think it's fair to say he looked a bit creepy with his horrible hairstyle and chomping those big cigars, it never even crossed my young mind that such horrors were lurking (barely) below the surface. You just saw him as an omnipresent public figure, nothing more. Certainly not true to say we 'all knew', although plenty have queued up since then to claim they knew he was dodgy. If they really knew then it's bamboozling that he went unchallenged for pretty much his whole adult life.

Yep, that's my experience too. You could add Rolf, Gary, Stuart Hall and DLT into that bag.

[James310]

Does Andrew Neil not have a few skeletons of his own in this particular closet?

Careful, he is suing the person that said similar!! Doubtful he read hibs.net though!

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1509731053749030920?t=ucBC4iQP5XdPkE9GMhJ7pg&s=19


The law grinds slowly but the wheels of justice are now in motion. Given her horrendous lies, expensive defeat for @Jennifer_Arcuri is now inevitable .
“Andrew Neil launches libel battle with Jennifer Arcuri over Epstein claims” https://t.co/qyedP2arBo

[Stairway 2 7]

Where's the Neil allegations come from I've not hears that before. Is it just the tweet or elsewhere.

[He's here!]

Yep, that's my experience too. You could add Rolf, Gary, Stuart Hall and DLT into that bag.

Yep, Rolf another who you just accepted as a quirky TV personality, although unlike Savile he did have some bona fide talent (as an artist and performer).

Stuart Hall was the biggest disappointment to me. Used to enjoy his poetic post-match reports on the car radio.

'The Gary Glitter fans who still follow the leader':

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/01/gary-glitter-fans-paul-gadd-facebook#:~:text=Steven%20Thomas%20was%2037,%2C%20 1973%2C%20that%20was%20it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yep, Rolf another who you just accepted as a quirky TV personality, although unlike Savile he did have some bona fide talent (as an artist and performer).

Stuart Hall was the biggest disappointment to me. Used to enjoy his poetic post-match reports on the car radio.

'The Gary Glitter fans who still follow the leader':

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/01/gary-glitter-fans-paul-gadd-facebook#:~:text=Steven%20Thomas%20was%2037,%2C%20 1973%2C%20that%20was%20it.

Is anyone here fans of elvis, led zeppelin, David Bowie slept with Lori Maddox when she was 14, iggy pop even sung about his relationship with 13yo sable Starr

There's many more that seem to get away with it. I've seen people delighting in John peel wearing a hibs strip

[Killiehibbie]

Agree with most of this this post. I would have done anything to be picked for Jim'll Fix It, just thought of him as an eccentric type. When he died, I text my pal to say what a shame, loved JFI as a bairn etc, they came right back and said thought he was creepy, so I think some in our generation did sense something uneasy about his TV persona.
A bit of unrelated trivia, my daughter saw Louis Theroux at Stormzy's gig at the Hydro this week, was there on his own just holding his jacket obliging people with selfies, she thought he was "so cool":greengrin.

I always found him creepy on TV. He was even worse in real life when he was doing the sponsored walk at Meadowbank.

[Smartie]

Where's the Neil allegations come from I've not hears that before. Is it just the tweet or elsewhere.

There was a pretty unpleasant photo that was doing the rounds of him in a vest and baseball cap. There was a young female in it with him (of indeterminate age) but I’m sure it surfaced in the context of Jeffrey Epstein / the photo of Prince Andrew with Ghislaine Maxwell and the 17 year old etc.

Not massively incriminating in itself, but the kind of thing that - if he had it lurking in the background - might stop him being the one who gets Savile bang to rights.

[Stairway 2 7]

There was a pretty unpleasant photo that was doing the rounds of him in a vest and baseball cap. There was a young female in it with him (of indeterminate age) but I’m sure it surfaced in the context of Jeffrey Epstein / the photo of Prince Andrew with Ghislaine Maxwell and the 17 year old etc.

Not massively incriminating in itself, but the kind of thing that - if he had it lurking in the background - might stop him being the one who gets Savile bang to rights.

Ah thanks

[green leaves]

Is anyone here fans of elvis, led zeppelin, David Bowie slept with Lori Maddox when she was 14, iggy pop even sung about his relationship with 13yo sable Starr

There's many more that seem to get away with it. I've seen people delighting in John peel wearing a hibs strip

Peel was a nonce.
Jimmy Page should be treated in the same way as Gary Glitter

[degenerated]

There was a pretty unpleasant photo that was doing the rounds of him in a vest and baseball cap. There was a young female in it with him (of indeterminate age) but I’m sure it surfaced in the context of Jeffrey Epstein / the photo of Prince Andrew with Ghislaine Maxwell and the 17 year old etc.

Not massively incriminating in itself, but the kind of thing that - if he had it lurking in the background - might stop him being the one who gets Savile bang to rights.That picture was published in Private Eye years back. His contact details were also in Jeffrey Epstein's little black book of dubious contacts.

[Bostonhibby]

That picture was published in Private Eye years back. His contact details were also in Jeffrey Epstein's little black book of dubious contacts.This one? Appears in the Eye waaaaayyy too often[emoji16]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220409/243241a40bd17aadd299cea4d890d782.jpg

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

This one? Appears in the Eye waaaaayyy too often[emoji16]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220409/243241a40bd17aadd299cea4d890d782.jpg

Sent from my SM-A750FN using TapatalkThat's the one, apparently he gets quite cross about it which is why it's always on twitter [emoji1787]

[lapsedhibee]

That's the one, apparently he gets quite cross about it which is why it's always on twitter [emoji1787]

Is that one on the right a photo of Pamella Bordes the former Miss India? Why would he get cross about that? :dunno:

[degenerated]

Jerry Sadowitz called out Saville on TV in 1987!He did something about on of his stage shoes about then as well. The audio is on you tube.

[Bostonhibby]

Is that one on the right a photo of Pamella Bordes the former Miss India? Why would he get cross about that? :dunno:Maybe he was wearing his good pants and the photographer didn't include them?

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