Hero worship

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Seen people from across the political spectrum nigh on hero worshipping Volodomyr Zelenskyy in the last few weeks. Now, I understand he's the Ukrainian leader and there's been an outpouring of support for them, which no one could begrudge them. But this is a man who was found to be operating several off shore accounts in the pandora papers. A man who is clearly against the right of self determination, as shown from his view on the Donbass and Luhansk conflict. He was elected to clean up Ukrainian politics and has been dabbling in the same corruption himself, he's not a hero in my opinion. Why is it that people tend to see politicians and politics as a whole, in black and white?



This is NOT any excuse for russian actions, before someone calls me a Russian bot or thinks I'm trying to excuse it, genuinely interested in why people see people as wholly good or wholly evil with no nuance.

[Bostonhibby]

I was aware of some of the past allegations against the guy.

But you know what, I'm going to suggest the way he's stepped up, not fled his country and continues to provided extraordinary leadership should be seen as a far more positive side to his character.

Certainly not a coward or a shirker, when faced with uncomfortable situations he doesn't strike me as the sort of person to hide in a freezer or run out the room.

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[Jim44]

Seen people from across the political spectrum nigh on hero worshipping Volodomyr Zelenskyy in the last few weeks. Now, I understand he's the Ukrainian leader and there's been an outpouring of support for them, which no one could begrudge them. But this is a man who was found to be operating several off shore accounts in the pandora papers. A man who is clearly against the right of self determination, as shown from his view on the Donbass and Luhansk conflict. He was elected to clean up Ukrainian politics and has been dabbling in the same corruption himself, he's not a hero in my opinion. Why is it that people tend to see politicians and politics as a whole, in black and white?



This is NOT any excuse for russian actions, before someone calls me a Russian bot or thinks I'm trying to excuse it, genuinely interested in why people see people as wholly good or wholly evil with no nuance.

I’ve no idea if your information is true or false but I don’t think it’s the right time to shoot down this guy for his political views or behaviour. Tarnished he may be, according to you, but he’s fulfilling a role that Ukraine badly needs in this present crisis. The time for judging him can surely wait till things are back on an even keel, if that day ever comes.

[WeeRussell]

He’s literally standing and fighting for his country on and off the battlefield rather than taking the safe and easy option. He’s determined to lead his country through this abhorrent crisis regardless of what it means for him personally.

He must be as close to a hero as you get in politics right now, and will rightly be remembered as one regardless of where this war takes him and his country.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I’ve no idea if your information is true or false but I don’t think it’s the right time to shoot down this guy for his political views or behaviour. Tarnished he may be, according to you, but he’s fulfilling a role that Ukraine badly needs in this present crisis. The time for judging him can surely wait till things are back on an even keel, if that day ever comes.

Alright, fair enough. He's fulfilling a role his country desperately needs right now and for that I have the upmost respect. But the fawning over him by the media (ranging from the national to the S*n to the BBC) is a bit unsettling.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

He’s literally standing and fighting for his country on and off the battlefield rather than taking the safe and easy option.

He must be as close to a hero as you get in politics right now, and will rightly be remembered as one regardless of where this war takes him and his country.

I just find it unsettling to treat a politician as close to a deity as western media have treated Mr Zelenskyy recently, especially after the accusations of corruption and tax evasion. Fair play to the guy for what he's done for his country in the last few weeks, but politics and life isn't black and white.

[Stuarty1875]

I just find it unsettling to treat a politician as close to a deity as western media have treated Mr Zelenskyy recently, especially after the accusations of corruption and tax evasion. Fair play to the guy for what he's done for his country in the last few weeks, but politics and life isn't black and white.

'Unsettling' is quite a emotive term. Why should we be worried/disturbed with how the media are portraying Zelenskyy? I'm not following you.

No offense but I find the actions of Russia more unsettling than any narrative on the Ukraine leadership. One has no concern for human life and the other has 'allegedly' saved himself a few quid in tax.

[H18 SFR]

If Zelenskyy is unsettling you I’d be interested to hear what impact Putin is having?

[WeeRussell]

Alright, fair enough. He's fulfilling a role his country desperately needs right now and for that I have the upmost respect. But the fawning over him by the media (ranging from the national to the S*n to the BBC) is a bit unsettling.

If Boris Johnson showed the same leadership and courage as the Ukrainian leader (I know, ridiculous) in the same situation, I’d be quite comfortable with the media labelling him as a hero.

And I f***** hate the c***.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

'Unsettling' is quite a emotive term. Why should we be worried/disturbed with how the media are portraying Zelenskyy? I'm not following you.

No offense but I find the actions of Russia more unsettling than any narrative on the Ukraine leadership. One has no concern for human life and the other has 'allegedly' saved himself a few quid in tax.

Unsettling to portray anybody that way, in my opinion. Putin is unarguably much worse and I don't feel like I've given any indication I feel otherwise. If I have then I do apologise, obviously war crimes and (as you say, alleged) tax evasion are very different kettles of fish. Just find it strange how newspapers (namely The National tbh) are so keen to place Zelenskyy on a pedestal and yet absolutely slaughter British politicians for "alleged" tax evasion.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

If Boris Johnson showed the same leadership and courage as the Ukrainian leader (I know, ridiculous) in the same situation, I’d be quite comfortable with the media labelling him as a hero.

And I f***** hate the c***.

Well we can sleep well tonight neither of us will ever have to describe that prick as a hero then, absolute coward. Which is one thing no one can say about Zelenskyy.

[WeeRussell]

Well we can sleep well tonight neither of us will ever have to describe that prick as a hero then, absolute coward. Which is one thing no one can say about Zelenskyy.

Can’t argue with that 👍

[Stuarty1875]

Unsettling to portray anybody that way, in my opinion. Putin is unarguably much worse and I don't feel like I've given any indication I feel otherwise. If I have then I do apologise, obviously war crimes and (as you say, alleged) tax evasion are very different kettles of fish. Just find it strange how newspapers (namely The National tbh) are so keen to place Zelenskyy on a pedestal and yet absolutely slaughter British politicians for "alleged" tax evasion.

Okay sorry if i've misunderstood your point. There are many examples of the 'west' being hypocrites, i'll agree with you on that 100%. Just don't see any issue with backing Zelenskyy. Nobody is perfect (see Churchill).

Also is The National an actual newspaper :greengrin

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Okay sorry if i've misunderstood your point. There are many examples of the 'west' being hypocrites, i'll agree with you on that 100%. Just don't see any issue with backing Zelenskyy. Nobody is perfect (see Churchill).

Also is The National an actual newspaper :greengrin

It's printed on paper... I'll give them that 😂

Churchill was much, much worse as a human being, in my opinion.

[Hibrandenburg]

I just find it unsettling to treat a politician as close to a deity as western media have treated Mr Zelenskyy recently, especially after the accusations of corruption and tax evasion. Fair play to the guy for what he's done for his country in the last few weeks, but politics and life isn't black and white.I find it unsettling how C Class TV and music celebrities get treated like deities. I'm glad we're back to celebrating truly heroic people, at least for a short while.

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[hibsbollah]

Seen people from across the political spectrum nigh on hero worshipping Volodomyr Zelenskyy in the last few weeks. Now, I understand he's the Ukrainian leader and there's been an outpouring of support for them, which no one could begrudge them. But this is a man who was found to be operating several off shore accounts in the pandora papers. A man who is clearly against the right of self determination, as shown from his view on the Donbass and Luhansk conflict. He was elected to clean up Ukrainian politics and has been dabbling in the same corruption himself, he's not a hero in my opinion. Why is it that people tend to see politicians and politics as a whole, in black and white?



This is NOT any excuse for russian actions, before someone calls me a Russian bot or thinks I'm trying to excuse it, genuinely interested in why people see people as wholly good or wholly evil with no nuance.


Its a fair question generally. Isnt it because we have a psychological need to follow a simple message of extremes more than a complex one? Also in world events historians can give a different perspective, after the Braveheart movie and worldwide interest more people became aware that there were revisionist histories about William Wallace out there that cast him as not much different from Edward I when you consider his brutality. People sanctifying themselves or being sanctified by the message is fine in the world of sport but is always a worrying thing in leaders.

(Your final sentence, its depressing you even need to say that and it speaks to how we've forgotten to tolerate other shades of opinion in post social media times).

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I find it unsettling how C Class TV and music celebrities get treated like deities. I'm glad we're back to celebrating truly heroic people, at least for a short while.

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Okay. But I can't remember Kyle Falconer (**** as he may be, he is the pinnacle of a C list musician being treated and acting like a deity) praising Stepan Bandera as a hero. Or allegedly funding the Azov Battalion. Can't say I disagree with what you're saying re celebrity culture, but it does seem a bit less harmless than deifying politicians, imo.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Its a fair question generally. Isnt it because we have a psychological need to follow a simple message of extremes more than a complex one? Also in world events historians can give a different perspective, after the Braveheart movie and worldwide interest more people became aware that there were revisionist histories about William Wallace out there that cast him as not much different from Edward I when you consider his brutality. People sanctifying themselves or being sanctified by the message is fine in the world of sport but is always a worrying thing in leaders.

(Your final sentence, its depressing you even need to say that and it speaks to how we've forgotten to tolerate other shades of opinion in post social media times).

It is depressing, I agree. You're also spot on regarding William Wallace, another shining example of what I mean.

[Hibrandenburg]

Okay. But I can't remember Kyle Falconer (**** as he may be, he is the pinnacle of a C list musician being treated and acting like a deity) praising Stepan Bandera as a hero. Or allegedly funding the Azov Battalion. Can't say I disagree with what you're saying re celebrity culture, but it does seem a bit less harmless than deifying politicians, imo.I think both are potentially malignant. Politicians and leaders will influence adult opinion whereas celebrities will more than likely influence kids in their formative years. I guess it's like everything in this world, it can be used for good or evil and everything on the spectrum between.

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[Stairway 2 7]

I think most people realise people are human. John lennon was a genius but a wife beater. Muhammad Ali regretted his racist opinions in his youth. Kennedy had affairs left right and centre. Martin luther king was a famous womaniser when married and ghandi was very racist against Africans.

If when ghandi or mlk were freeing their people, you were to say yeah but they are flawed. You'd probably be told to read the room and stop being an erse

[Hibrandenburg]

I think most people realise people are human. John lennon was a genius but a wife beater. Muhammad Ali regretted his racist opinions in his youth. Kennedy had affairs left right and centre. Martin luther king was a famous womaniser when married and ghandi was very racist against Africans.

If when ghandi or mlk were freeing their people, you were to say yeah but they are flawed. You'd probably be told to read the room and stop being an erseGood post.

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[Jack]

Seen people from across the political spectrum nigh on hero worshipping Volodomyr Zelenskyy in the last few weeks. Now, I understand he's the Ukrainian leader and there's been an outpouring of support for them, which no one could begrudge them. But this is a man who was found to be operating several off shore accounts in the pandora papers. A man who is clearly against the right of self determination, as shown from his view on the Donbass and Luhansk conflict. He was elected to clean up Ukrainian politics and has been dabbling in the same corruption himself, he's not a hero in my opinion. Why is it that people tend to see politicians and politics as a whole, in black and white?



This is NOT any excuse for russian actions, before someone calls me a Russian bot or thinks I'm trying to excuse it, genuinely interested in why people see people as wholly good or wholly evil with no nuance.

Having an offshore account itself isn't a crime, nor does it exclusively mean there has been something underhand going on.

Can you tell us what links him or his accounts with corruption?

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I think most people realise people are human. John lennon was a genius but a wife beater. Muhammad Ali regretted his racist opinions in his youth. Kennedy had affairs left right and centre. Martin luther king was a famous womaniser when married and ghandi was very racist against Africans.

If when ghandi or mlk were freeing their people, you were to say yeah but they are flawed. You'd probably be told to read the room and stop being an erse

Very good point. Is openly endorsing Nazi collaborators as "hero" icons equivalent to being a womaniser, for example? I'd likely argue not, but that's my personal opinion.
Don't think I'm in any way not reading the room or being an Erse as you say, I've not said anything disrespectful or claimed to support Russian Imperialism.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Having an offshore account itself isn't a crime, nor does it exclusively mean there has been something underhand going on.

Can you tell us what links him or his accounts with corruption?

No its not a crime you're right, but it's pretty immoral in most ordinary folks opinion, as I'm sure you'd agree. Especially when you're elected on an anti- oligarch pledge and manifesto with 73% of the vote.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

https://socialistworker.co.uk/alex-callinicos/ukraine-shows-splits-in-the-us-ruling-class/

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

Sounds a little bit like the actions of an oligarch, no?

[McD]

I think to some degree, we're all judgemental, even if it’s just to assess what kind of person we’re looking at.

that compels us to weigh a person’s actions, and ultimately determine whether we see them as good or bad, or right or wrong. As others have said, even people who are hailed as positive forces in history have flaws, we all, guided by our own moral compasses, make that judgement. That judgement may change, if a person, like zelenskyy, takes action that is deemed to be heroic, positive, standing up for what’s right, or indeed the other way, takes action that’s deemed to be heinous, reprehensible or despicable.

at the end of the day, or the end of their life, people will consider what actions did that person take and what impact did they leave behind them - will the positive outweigh the negative? Sometimes that will be a broad agreement across people and time, for others, it will be less so, and opinion will be mixed