Post Office Scandal

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining hundreds of lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals. Doesn’t even seem to have made it to the tv news bulletins.

[gbhibby]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining many lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals.
Don't understand why people were prosecuted some forensic accounting would have shown up the error. Police have officers trained in this.
Any new system should be audited and tested before it is introduced.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining hundreds of lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals. Doesn’t even seem to have made it to the tv news bulletins.

It did make last night's news. It's the first time I've watched a bulletin and at the end of the segment heard the presenter say they thought that was an absolute disgrace or scandal, can't remember his exact words. It was ITV, think his name is Tom Bradby?

[Hiber-nation]

It did make last night's news. It's the first time I've watched a bulletin and at the end of the segment heard the presenter say they thought that was an absolute disgrace or scandal, can't remember his exact words. It was ITV, think his name is Tom Bradby?

Yep, Tom Bradby seems to be allowed to say what he wants and I'm glad he did. He slaughtered Johnson a few weeks back as well.

[stantonhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining hundreds of lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals. Doesn’t even seem to have made it to the tv news bulletins.


It's unbelievable. Private Eye have been campaigning about it for years

[Santa Cruz]

Yep, Tom Bradby seems to be allowed to say what he wants and I'm glad he did. He slaughtered Johnson a few weeks back as well.

Agree. Good for him, and he was 100% correct.

[Bostonhibby]

It's unbelievable. Private Eye have been campaigning about it for yearsYep, excellent coverage of the rush to privatise at all costs and they did a great job of highlighting the actions of the reprehensible and seemingly teflon Paula Vennells.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[gbhibby]

This story has been in the news for years. It is a scandal. One report I heard was that the people involved in signing off and making the system go live in the post office have now retired. I would imagine the compensation amounts paid out will be eye-watering.The people responsible for letting the prosecutions go ahead have some explaining to do as well.The IT company have a huge part in this as well,some systems promise the earth but do not deliver

[hibsbollah]

It did make last night's news. It's the first time I've watched a bulletin and at the end of the segment heard the presenter say they thought that was an absolute disgrace or scandal, can't remember his exact words. It was ITV, think his name is Tom Bradby?

Good, I’m pleased about that. I do keep an eye on the news, but although I heard about this story in passing I had no idea about the massive scale and the number of people affected. I still think it’s been relatively underreported.

[Billy Whizz]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9514099/amp/Now-strip-shamed-Post-Office-boss-CBE.html

[greenlex]

The thing that gets me is not one person in the post office hierarchy thought wait a minute. There’s too many at it. It can’t be right. Are all these people risking their livelihoods and personal investments by fiddling the books? All at the same time (relatively speaking) Unbelievable no one thought it odd and ploughed on with the prosecutions.

[Mike Berry]

The thing that gets me is not one person in the post office hierarchy thought wait a minute. There’s too many at it. It can’t be right. Are all these people risking their livelihoods and personal investments by fiddling the books? All at the same time (relatively speaking) Unbelievable no one thought it odd and ploughed on with the prosecutions.They knew the system was flawed, but went ahead with the prosecutions anyway. Ruined hundreds of lives.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

They knew the system was flawed, but went ahead with the prosecutions anyway. Ruined hundreds of lives.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Is there proof they knew? And what, just steamed ahead anyway on the basis that they were going to catch a few thieves in a dragnet? Crazy.

[Mike Berry]

Is there proof they knew? And what, just steamed ahead anyway on the basis that they were going to catch a few thieves in a dragnet? Crazy.The Private Eye investigation is probably the most comprehensive piece on it. Seems clear that a) Fujitsu knew the system was a mess when they sold it to the post office. b) Post Office senior managers knew before the prosecutions that they'd bought a duff system, and c) they all lied in court during the prosecutions. It's beyond belief, but it happened.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjsqZnf3IP2AhWHSsAKHY4RBig4ChAWegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw2qjnz_BQ3GvJXqH6Eervpy

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mike Berry]

Sorry, put the wrong link in[emoji849]

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mike Berry]

Sorry, put the wrong link in[emoji849]

Sent from my LYA-L09 using TapatalkHere it is:
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwitx-3M3oP2AhXColwKHdBvCmAQFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw1nxOZfrrI3sjzRwsuVUyi1

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Bostonhibby]

The Private Eye investigation is probably the most comprehensive piece on it. Seems clear that a) Fujitsu knew the system was a mess when they sold it to the post office. b) Post Office senior managers knew before the prosecutions that they'd bought a duff system, and c) they all lied in court during the prosecutions. It's beyond belief, but it happened.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjsqZnf3IP2AhWHSsAKHY4RBig4ChAWegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw2qjnz_BQ3GvJXqH6Eervpy

Sent from my LYA-L09 using TapatalkThis is a reasonable conclusion to come to, especially with Fujitsu employees and contractors now coming out and saying they knew the problems with the system and tried to do work arounds to satisfy the client, the Post Office, who certainly knew about the flaws and the consequences of them.

Reckless disregard for the evidence would be being kind to the Post office employees who knowingly supressed the evidence which only really came out during the enquiry and civil actions. The real crimes are here and prosecutions rather than rewards, promotions and even the odd knighthood seem more appropriate.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

Here it is:
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwitx-3M3oP2AhXColwKHdBvCmAQFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw1nxOZfrrI3sjzRwsuVUyi1

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Thanks, I’ll read that later.

[Col2]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining hundreds of lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals. Doesn’t even seem to have made it to the tv news bulletins.

Thanks for sharing. I am astonished that this happened and it’s a sign of the time (given multiple scandals) that this hasn’t had the level of profile to date. Those involved in blaming the post office workers are a disgrace and responsible for ruining many families lives. Astonishing ☹️

[overdrive]

I’m amazed that given top management changed during this time, not one of them decided “this isn’t right” when they came in and sorted it.

I guess that’s the issue where a lot of CEOs are incentivised on achievement of short term goals.

[Bostonhibby]

I’m amazed that given top management changed during this time, not one of them decided “this isn’t right” when they came in and sorted it.

I guess that’s the issue where a lot of CEOs are incentivised on achievement of short term goals.They had a government desperate to quickly privatise the post office, that will have been well incentivised

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Killiehibbie]

Is there proof they knew? And what, just steamed ahead anyway on the basis that they were going to catch a few thieves in a dragnet? Crazy.

I watched a documentary about it, they all knew but refused to admit it due to the cost of a flawed system

[hibsbollah]

A great article from Marina Hyde on the continued lack of media interest in this bizarre and shocking scandal. On a different subject but gilt by the sentence that politicians should ‘think about giving younger people a stake in capitalism, instead of expecting them to abide by a set of rules of a game in which they are not even allowed to be player characters.’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

[One Day Soon]

A great article from Marina Hyde on the continued lack of media interest in this bizarre and shocking scandal. On a different subject but gilt by the sentence that politicians should ‘think about giving younger people a stake in capitalism, instead of expecting them to abide by a set of rules of a game in which they are not even allowed to be player characters.’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry


That is an outstanding piece. Thanks for posting it here otherwise I might have missed it.

The story itself is just beyond belief. A real cautionary tale as to what 'the system' and a conspiracy of self-interested actors can do to ordinary people if accountability and scrutiny isn't there or doesn't work.

Beyond that it's an almost perfect microcosm of the completely ****ed nature of our times. If you believe in a mixed economy (as I do) and accept that functioning capitalism sits at its core then its twin partner has to be both very robust regulation and accountability on the one hand and a clearly defined and properly resourced public sector on the other. This article demonstrates that we have neither of those. I don't even blame the private sector and capitalist adventurers for this, I blame the utterly degraded and corrupt political class which has for decades relentlessly marched away from post-war consensus all across the West, leaving us with puppets, empty words and enfeebled institutions.

The link to social media is just perfect. 'I don't want to do anything difficult, long term or challenging, I just want to **** off on social media' nails it completely. Electorates in the West get the governments they deserve. They're not imposed, people actually vote for these jokers. And yes I know that there are a lot of roads that ultimately lead to any individual democratic outcome.

Who to blame? Honestly, I'm going for a large punt on just one person. Rupert Murdoch. He is more responsible for the corruption of our politics, our public discourse and the veiling of reality in public life and institutions than any other.

[Kato]

That is an outstanding piece. Thanks for posting it here otherwise I might have missed it.

The story itself is just beyond belief. A real cautionary tale as to what 'the system' and a conspiracy of self-interested actors can do to ordinary people if accountability and scrutiny isn't there or doesn't work.

Beyond that it's an almost perfect microcosm of the completely ****ed nature of our times. If you believe in a mixed economy (as I do) and accept that functioning capitalism sits at its core then its twin partner has to be both very robust regulation and accountability on the one hand and a clearly defined and properly resourced public sector on the other. This article demonstrates that we have neither of those. I don't even blame the private sector and capitalist adventurers for this, I blame the utterly degraded and corrupt political class which has for decades relentlessly marched away from post-war consensus all across the West, leaving us with puppets, empty words and enfeebled institutions.

The link to social media is just perfect. 'I don't want to do anything difficult, long term or challenging, I just want to **** off on social media' nails it completely. Electorates in the West get the governments they deserve. They're not imposed, people actually vote for these jokers. And yes I know that there are a lot of roads that ultimately lead to any individual democratic outcome.

Who to blame? Honestly, I'm going for a large punt on just one person. Rupert Murdoch. He is more responsible for the corruption of our politics, our public discourse and the veiling of reality in public life and institutions than any other.Am going to agree with all of that.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

That is an outstanding piece. Thanks for posting it here otherwise I might have missed it.

The story itself is just beyond belief. A real cautionary tale as to what 'the system' and a conspiracy of self-interested actors can do to ordinary people if accountability and scrutiny isn't there or doesn't work.

Beyond that it's an almost perfect microcosm of the completely ****ed nature of our times. If you believe in a mixed economy (as I do) and accept that functioning capitalism sits at its core then its twin partner has to be both very robust regulation and accountability on the one hand and a clearly defined and properly resourced public sector on the other. This article demonstrates that we have neither of those. I don't even blame the private sector and capitalist adventurers for this, I blame the utterly degraded and corrupt political class which has for decades relentlessly marched away from post-war consensus all across the West, leaving us with puppets, empty words and enfeebled institutions.

The link to social media is just perfect. 'I don't want to do anything difficult, long term or challenging, I just want to **** off on social media' nails it completely. Electorates in the West get the governments they deserve. They're not imposed, people actually vote for these jokers. And yes I know that there are a lot of roads that ultimately lead to any individual democratic outcome.

Who to blame? Honestly, I'm going for a large punt on just one person. Rupert Murdoch. He is more responsible for the corruption of our politics, our public discourse and the veiling of reality in public life and institutions than any other.

Outstanding post.

I sometimes struggle to decide where to pigeon hole my particular set of beliefs but I can relate in particular to your third paragraph here. I'm not a traditional lefty, certainly not a Tory, but have a pragmatic outlook that understands our need to balance an element of a selfishness we all have with a need for a greater good, and an acceptance that some things work better in public hands, some in private.

What we currently have is badly broken and there are just so many examples of it.

The Post Office story is chilling.

[hibsbollah]

That is an outstanding piece. Thanks for posting it here otherwise I might have missed it.

The story itself is just beyond belief. A real cautionary tale as to what 'the system' and a conspiracy of self-interested actors can do to ordinary people if accountability and scrutiny isn't there or doesn't work.

Beyond that it's an almost perfect microcosm of the completely ****ed nature of our times. If you believe in a mixed economy (as I do) and accept that functioning capitalism sits at its core then its twin partner has to be both very robust regulation and accountability on the one hand and a clearly defined and properly resourced public sector on the other. This article demonstrates that we have neither of those. I don't even blame the private sector and capitalist adventurers for this, I blame the utterly degraded and corrupt political class which has for decades relentlessly marched away from post-war consensus all across the West, leaving us with puppets, empty words and enfeebled institutions.

The link to social media is just perfect. 'I don't want to do anything difficult, long term or challenging, I just want to **** off on social media' nails it completely. Electorates in the West get the governments they deserve. They're not imposed, people actually vote for these jokers. And yes I know that there are a lot of roads that ultimately lead to any individual democratic outcome.

Who to blame? Honestly, I'm going for a large punt on just one person. Rupert Murdoch. He is more responsible for the corruption of our politics, our public discourse and the veiling of reality in public life and institutions than any other.

Nailed it, ODS. Agree completely.

[NAE NOOKIE]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/post-office-scandal-workers-computer-system

I’m amazed this story hasn’t got more traction than it has. An awful miscarriage of justice, ruining hundreds of lives on the basis of a slavish devotion to ‘tech’, which in this case was actually incorrectly applied and made the innocent criminals. Doesn’t even seem to have made it to the tv news bulletins.

Was on here to post on another thread when I noticed this one. Absolutely bang on Hibsbollah, a total outrage, which thankfully has now had far more publicity since your OP. Even then restitution and justice for the folk involved has been slow and shamefully inadequate ... a shameful episode that even now nobody has paid for ... high time they did.

[Oscar T Grouch]

https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/06/03/postoffice4/

As if this scandal wasn't sickening enough, this is a pretty depressing article about the compensation scheme shaping up to be awful too.

[wookie70]

I was listening to James O'Brien the other day was was responding to the possible dangers of AI. The Post Officer Story constantly flashed through my mind as how any issues would be dealt with by those in power. One of the callers referred to a similar Dutch story (https://www.politico.eu/article/dutch-scandal-serves-as-a-warning-for-europe-over-risks-of-using-algorithms/)and I think the dangers are there for all to see too.

I already think we are beyond the point where IT advances are a good thing for the vast majority of where they are deployed. Everything now seems slower with the way the world is organised and the vast choices we have. Those with the levers on decision making and on punishment are often the most criminal type of individuals devoid of common sense. Human suffering wouldn't even cross their mind when it comes to something they signed off on being under pressure. The Post Office scandal is a disgrace and there are a number of managers that should have had a criminal record. The Trade Union Officials were not exactly supportive either.

This is well worth a listen too (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m000jf7j)

[Lendo]

https://youtu.be/CQzrB3kuqck

Post Office bosses being grilled and torn to shreds over false information in their accounts and giving themselves huge bonuses off the back of it.

Nothing will come of this but they should all be under criminal investigation, just like the poor Post Masters wrongfully accused.

[wookie70]

https://youtu.be/CQzrB3kuqckPost Office bosses being grilled and torn to shreds over false information in their accounts and giving themselves huge bonuses off the back of it. Nothing will come of this but they should all be under criminal investigation, just like the poor Post Masters wrongfully accused. Just listened to that the other day. How they are not under investigation is beyond belief and I imagine the story is similar across many boardrooms.