Fit and proper persons regulation for football players?

[He's here!]

Val McDermid calls for regulator to check footballers - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60285409)

Thoughts? (admins, feel free to move this to the Holy Ground if you think it's more at home there).

Val McDermid seems to carry a lot of clout on this issue because it puzzles me a bit why this furore has only really ignited since Raith signed Goodwillie. Yes there was disquiet when Clyde signed him but as far as I'm aware his five-year spell there has attracted few headlines and if anything Clyde appeared to regard him as something of a shining example of rehabilitation.

As the victim herself pointed out to the Sunday Post at the weekend, the outrage seems to have been a long time coming, with politicians including the First Minister far less conspicuous about it all back in 2017:

Denise Clair, the woman raped by David Goodwillie, on why Scotland's outrage is years too late (sundaypost.com) (https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/denise-clair-goodwillie/)

[HoboHarry]

Seems to me that Val McDermid is calling a whole load of attention to herself - she doesn't have a new book coming out by any chance does she? Would these regulations apply only to footballers? What about rugby players? Cricketers? Come to that, electricians, painters and plumbers? More chance of them being in your home than a footballer.

Regulating footballers so that players who haven't been convicted in a criminal court can never play football again, but they can take any manner of other jobs (for example as a barman) which would give them access to drunk women? Not going to happen.

[Greenbeard]

Who, how, what level, what sports?
It’s a club responsibility in my view.
My amateur club has to verify my qualifications and disclosure. I see no reason why a pro football club shouldn’t be responsible for similar such verification for ALL its employees ie inc players who will be role models, whether for a hundred fans or a hundred thousand fans.
If they don’t, or are negligent in not adopting proper practice then the governing body should be able to step in.

[Lago]

Seems to me that Val McDermid is calling a whole load of attention to herself - she doesn't have a new book coming out by any chance does she? Would these regulations apply only to footballers? What about rugby players? Cricketers? Come to that, electricians, painters and plumbers? More chance of them being in your home than a footballer.

Regulating footballers so that players who haven't been convicted in a criminal court can never play football again, but they can take any manner of other jobs (for example as a barman) which would give them access to drunk women? Not going to happen.
Your correct, I'd just add politicians to your list.

[The 90+2]

Who, how, what level, what sports?
It’s a club responsibility in my view.
My amateur club has to verify my qualifications and disclosure. I see no reason why a pro football club shouldn’t be responsible for similar such verification for ALL its employees ie inc players who will be role models, whether for a hundred fans or a hundred thousand fans.
If they don’t, or are negligent in not adopting proper practice then the governing body should be able to step in.


Is there a conviction for what he was accused on on his disclosure certificate? He's never criminally been convicted.

[Bishop Hibee]

Very problematic putting young men on a pedestal as role models because they happen to be gifted at football. That’s absolutely in no way condoning rape or the like. I never admired any footballer growing up apart from for their footballing ability. Plenty other role models in my family and wider society to look up to.

[Sir David Gray]

Is there a conviction for what he was accused on on his disclosure certificate? He's never criminally been convicted.

No there won't be, a disclosure check only checks for criminal records, a civil court action won't show up on such checks.

I doubt very much if David Goodwillie would be barred from playing professional football under the sort of system that Val McDermid seems to be proposing.

[SlickShoes]

Seems to me that Val McDermid is calling a whole load of attention to herself - she doesn't have a new book coming out by any chance does she? Would these regulations apply only to footballers? What about rugby players? Cricketers? Come to that, electricians, painters and plumbers? More chance of them being in your home than a footballer.

Regulating footballers so that players who haven't been convicted in a criminal court can never play football again, but they can take any manner of other jobs (for example as a barman) which would give them access to drunk women? Not going to happen.

Ah yes blame the woman for calling attention to herself, can't believe what I am reading here. This exact mindset is why things are so far from changing.

She was the main sponsor of a football club, she supported them for years, and they employed a rapist, she is allowed to have an opinion.

[HoboHarry]

Ah yes blame the woman for calling attention to herself, can't believe what I am reading here. This exact mindset is why things are so far from changing.

She was the main sponsor of a football club, she supported them for years, and they employed a rapist, she is allowed to have an opinion.
Of course she is, I just don't recall hearing anything from her or her pal Nicola when it involved Clyde. Aside from that, you might tell me how a legally binding regulation could be set up that only involved footballers and which could be applied when no criminal conviction had occurred?

[SlickShoes]

Of course she is, I just don't recall hearing anything from her or her pal Nicola when it involved Clyde. Aside from that, you might tell me how a legally binding regulation could be set up that only involved footballers and which could be applied when no criminal conviction had occurred?

You accused her of just promoting her book.

Why does the fact she said nothing last time matter so much? Did anyone ask her last time?

Should society have done better and made more of it then? Yes, clearly, but we can't go back in time so let's do something now, not just let it continue.

I don't know how you set up a safe and proper persons register for football, but it sounds like something worth looking into at least.

[HoboHarry]

You accused her of just promoting her book.

Why does the fact she said nothing last time matter so much? Did anyone ask her last time?

Should society have done better and made more of it then? Yes, clearly, but we can't go back in time so let's do something now, not just let it continue.

I don't know how you set up a safe and proper persons register for football, but it sounds like something worth looking into at least.
My point was that it's never going to happen, the legalities would be impossible and I suspect she knows that. Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

[Pretty Boy]

No there won't be, a disclosure check only checks for criminal records, a civil court action won't show up on such checks.

I doubt very much if David Goodwillie would be barred from playing professional football under the sort of system that Val McDermid seems to be proposing.

Other information deemed relevant to the application can be included on an enhanced disclosure.

In the case of Goodwillie were he applying for such or to join the PVG scheme there is every chance the civil court case against him could be deemed relavant information.

[lord bunberry]

We have a justice system that is based on rehabilitation, I’m against a move that removes that chance with a blanket ban. You could have two players who commit the same crime but they may well have different attitudes towards what they did and how they have reintegrated into society. The David Goodwillie case is a complete anomaly in that he was taken to a civil court, but as far as I’m aware there aren’t any convicted rapists playing football in this country and I’d imagine there won’t be many across Europe. The chances of someone committing a serious crime and returning to play are pretty remote, I can only think of the guy who got done for killing people while driving when over the limit.

[Sir David Gray]

Other information deemed relevant to the application can be included on an enhanced disclosure.

In the case of Goodwillie were he applying for such or to join the PVG scheme there is every chance the civil court case against him could be deemed relavant information.

Ok thanks, stand corrected. I've not heard of that before, I'd always assumed it was a criminal record check only.

[WhileTheChief..]

Let's have the same for folk in the performing arts, or authors etc as well yeah?

Let's have them all drug tested too, with their results posted online, clearly it's in the public interest.

They're just as much role models as sportsmen.

[Pretty Boy]

Ok thanks, stand corrected. I've not heard of that before, I'd always assumed it was a criminal record check only.

That's generally the case for basic and standard disclosures. Enhanced goes further because it's required for work with the most vulnerable.

[Greenbeard]

Let's have the same for folk in the performing arts, or authors etc as well yeah?

Let's have them all drug tested too, with their results posted online, clearly it's in the public interest.

They're just as much role models as sportsmen.
You can only guess at how many successful musicians, authors or artists would have flopped had it not been for some chemical assistance but I suspect it would be loads!
As an aside, professional gaming (WTF!) now has drug testing. So watch out all you gamers out there.

[Greenbeard]

Other information deemed relevant to the application can be included on an enhanced disclosure.

In the case of Goodwillie were he applying for such or to join the PVG scheme there is every chance the civil court case against him could be deemed relavant information.
Or a self-disclosure clause in any offer of a contract ie is there anything relevant (timeframe?) that might bring the employer or the sport into disrepute? Either way there would still be a degree of subjectivity in the employer deciding what or who is acceptable, or not, so some scope for an intervention by a higher body ie the governing body should be allowed.

[Keith_M]

I have to admit to being torn on this one.

What the guy did was despicable and indefensible. I'm sure there's nobody that argues with that and that he deserves to be punished for it.

The other side of the coin is: should anybody convicted of a crime in either a civil or criminal court case be disbarred from ever working again? Or is it just in certain industries? If it's the latter, how do we decide which is acceptable and which not?

:dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

I have to admit to being torn on this one.

What the guy did was despicable and indefensible. I'm sure there's nobody that argues with that and that he deserves to be punished for it.

The other side of the coin is: should anybody convicted of a crime in either a civil or criminal court case be disbarred from ever working again? Or is it just in certain industries? If it's the latter, how do we decide which is acceptable and which not?

:dunno:

Surely people convicted of certain crimes are all ready disbarred from working again in various industries.

A convicted fraudster isn't going to get a job in a bank call centre, a paedophile can't be employed as a teacher and a rapist is highly unlikely to work as a social worker in contact with vulnerable people.

Obviously those are all industry specific convictions but there is a precedent for relevant convictions preventing employment in certain sectors. Arguably sport and the arts are an anomaly in such an area in that people with pretty serious convictions carry on their careers relatively unscathed. Roman Polanski is probably the most high profile in film, Mike Tyson is an obvious one in sport, Chris Brown has continued to make music despite his then partner turning up at an awards ceremony covered in cuts and bruises and his subsequent criminal conviction for beating her.

[superfurryhibby]

I have to admit to being torn on this one.

What the guy did was despicable and indefensible. I'm sure there's nobody that argues with that and that he deserves to be punished for it.

The other side of the coin is: should anybody convicted of a crime in either a civil or criminal court case be disbarred from ever working again? Or is it just in certain industries? If it's the latter, how do we decide which is acceptable and which not?

:dunno:

It’s a good question.

The government don’t make the rules in terms of exclusion from working, that is surely down to employers or the bodies that require registration in terms of ones fitness to work with any given group or in any particular employment?

Clearly a lot is down to individual clubs, ie; Clyde employed Goodwillie. Dundee employ Paul McGowan who has a string of convictions. Hibs have employed guys convicted of drink driving and harassment/ threatening behaviour ( whilst already employed at ER).

[500miles]

Given that Goodwillie can't play anyway due to public backlash, this is totally unnecessary.

[heretoday]

Drop it, Val, and write another gruesome novel.

[Wilson]

Very problematic putting young men on a pedestal as role models because they happen to be gifted at football. That’s absolutely in no way condoning rape or the like. I never admired any footballer growing up apart from for their footballing ability. Plenty other role models in my family and wider society to look up to.

That is the problem though. Do we put them on that pedestal or are they there by default because of their ability and exposure? You wouldn't pick a footballer for a role model but then who can really tell their kids who they should admire?

Then, what if you write off a footballer as a role model? You wouldn't shrug off their bad behaviour because they aren't role models anyway. You'd still expect decent standards of behaviour. Not because they're footballers. Not as role models. But because that's the minimum we should ask of eachother in any walk of life.

[Since452]

A story today about a West Ham player vollying his pet cat around the house. I despair about some footballers mindset. Thick as mince and tens/hundreds of thousands of pounds a week don't go well together.

[silverhibee]

Val McDermid calls for regulator to check footballers - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60285409)

Thoughts? (admins, feel free to move this to the Holy Ground if you think it's more at home there).

Val McDermid seems to carry a lot of clout on this issue because it puzzles me a bit why this furore has only really ignited since Raith signed Goodwillie. Yes there was disquiet when Clyde signed him but as far as I'm aware his five-year spell there has attracted few headlines and if anything Clyde appeared to regard him as something of a shining example of rehabilitation.

As the victim herself pointed out to the Sunday Post at the weekend, the outrage seems to have been a long time coming, with politicians including the First Minister far less conspicuous about it all back in 2017:

Denise Clair, the woman raped by David Goodwillie, on why Scotland's outrage is years too late (sundaypost.com) (https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/denise-clair-goodwillie/)

I was at a few Clyde games when Goodwillie joined and there was protests from fans and a few things in the papers at the times, he took dogs abuse from home and away fans at the time, was not happy when the FM got involved when he signed for Raith Rovers, she should have kept her thoughts to herself, I’m sure there is a few players in Scotland who have done things that aren’t great, assaulting wife’s girlfriends, does Thompson get to stay in his job and yes Griffiths wasn’t charged but it was a bit creepy from him, but where do you draw the line.

[He's here!]

I have to admit to being torn on this one.

What the guy did was despicable and indefensible. I'm sure there's nobody that argues with that and that he deserves to be punished for it.

The other side of the coin is: should anybody convicted of a crime in either a civil or criminal court case be disbarred from ever working again? Or is it just in certain industries? If it's the latter, how do we decide which is acceptable and which not?

:dunno:

Here's what Clyde manager Danny Lennon had to say about Goodwillie prior to Raith signing him:

"There's speculation around David in every window. He knows what we think of him. There's not a price mark on David Goodwillie for what he's done for Clyde Football Club. He has been absolutely fantastic for this club and for me personally and that's the mark of the man. He's a good strong character who most clubs would want."

And after making him captain: "He's a perfect professional. He's taken on everything, courses, hearings, he's attended courses, done talks. He's worked ever so hard to get his life back in order, happily married, wee baby girl, and he's doing an electrician's apprenticeship. He's now club captain and that's because of the qualities and character we see in him every day.

"It's important that you see that and give people an opportunity to get their lives back. In any walk of life, not just football."

[WhileTheChief..]

Here's what Clyde manager Danny Lennon had to say about Goodwillie prior to Raith signing him:

"There's speculation around David in every window. He knows what we think of him. There's not a price mark on David Goodwillie for what he's done for Clyde Football Club. He has been absolutely fantastic for this club and for me personally and that's the mark of the man. He's a good strong character who most clubs would want."

And after making him captain: "He's a perfect professional. He's taken on everything, courses, hearings, he's attended courses, done talks. He's worked ever so hard to get his life back in order, happily married, wee baby girl, and he's doing an electrician's apprenticeship. He's now club captain and that's because of the qualities and character we see in him every day.

"It's important that you see that and give people an opportunity to get their lives back. In any walk of life, not just football."

Thanks for posting this. Maybe Val should have looked at things a bit more closely before running her mouth off.

Seems like a fair amount of contrition from him and he has indeed made an effort.

[SlickShoes]

Thanks for posting this. Maybe Val should have looked at things a bit more closely before running her mouth off.

Seems like a fair amount of contrition from him and he has indeed made an effort.

What are the courses? what are the talks?

Did he pay the money he was ordered to pay the victim of his rape? has he communicated any remorse?

It reads like he has moved on with his life, I wonder if his victim was able to do that.

It's funny that having kids makes you a good person instantly, no one bad could have kids could they!?

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for posting this. Maybe Val should have looked at things a bit more closely before running her mouth off.

Seems like a fair amount of contrition from him and he has indeed made an effort.

There is one major gap in any "contrition", though. I'm not sure whether he has filled that gap and, tbh, it's not my business whether he has or not. But, in the court of public opinion, it would help his case.

Back on topic, though, we have a test for Fit and Proper Owners and Directors. That works well, so why not players?...... :greengrin

[SRHibs]

You can only guess at how many successful musicians, authors or artists would have flopped had it not been for some chemical assistance but I suspect it would be loads!
As an aside, professional gaming (WTF!) now has drug testing. So watch out all you gamers out there.

Very few Esports drug test, although there is an enormous problem with performance enhancing drugs (Adderall specifically). It depends on the specific game too: professional gaming is as vague a term as professional sports.

[The 90+2]

What are the courses? what are the talks?

Did he pay the money he was ordered to pay the victim of his rape? has he communicated any remorse?

It reads like he has moved on with his life, I wonder if his victim was able to do that.

It's funny that having kids makes you a good person instantly, no one bad could have kids could they!?


It seems regardless of what people can or could do you aren't the forgiving type anyway.

Sorry would be admitting a crime and a criminal case could then be launched again against him. He probably doesn't fancy jail and sees a career in football and public shaming all his life an adequate punishment - IF he's actually guilty of the crime he was accused of.

Goodwillie was a known complete tit off the park as a young player. Welt of a guy. If he's humble now keeps his head down and focuses on his job and his family then that indeed is a complete character change. If he's now got the character to be a club captain of a football club then that shows the same. And Danny Lennon and the staff at Clyde will know a lot more than us what he's like.

[WhileTheChief..]

What are the courses? what are the talks?

Did he pay the money he was ordered to pay the victim of his rape? has he communicated any remorse?

It reads like he has moved on with his life, I wonder if his victim was able to do that.

It's funny that having kids makes you a good person instantly, no one bad could have kids could they!?

No idea. Maybe he has?

I guess the point I'm making is that Val knows hee-haw, the same as the rest of us.

Did she pause for a second and think about what she was doing or did she just jump on Twitter and bump her gums without any thought to the wider implications of her actions?

I'll bet she didn't even think what effect this might have had on Denise Clair. Having read her interview, she says she wished she never had to speak about DG again. Well, Val chucked that right out the window.

Now she wants the whole of Scottish football changed because someone (John McGlynn) at her club made a huge arse of things.

She can bugger off.

[The 90+2]

No idea. Maybe he has?

I guess the point I'm making is that Val knows hee-haw, the same as the rest of us.

Did she pause for a second and think about what she was doing or did she just jump on Twitter and bump her gums without any thought to the wider implications of her actions?

I'll bet she didn't even think what effect this might have had on Denise Clair. Having read her interview, she says she wished she never had to speak about DG again. Well, Val chucked that right out the window.

Now she wants the whole of Scottish football changed because someone (John McGlynn) at her club made a huge arse of things.

She can bugger off.

:agree: she failed to think of any of this will or could effect DW's wife or little girl either, that doesn't matter though because she changed the Raith Girls team to her name - absolutely nothing to do with the publicity she receives though.

If VW withdrew sponsorship at Raith if would have given the clear strong message she isn't happy that he's signed for the club but her continuing rampage of doing more and more actually distinguishes the strong message and looks like more about her.

[superfurryhibby]

No idea. Maybe he has?

I guess the point I'm making is that Val knows hee-haw, the same as the rest of us.

Did she pause for a second and think about what she was doing or did she just jump on Twitter and bump her gums without any thought to the wider implications of her actions?

I'll bet she didn't even think what effect this might have had on Denise Clair. Having read her interview, she says she wished she never had to speak about DG again. Well, Val chucked that right out the window.

Now she wants the whole of Scottish football changed because someone (John McGlynn) at her club made a huge arse of things.

She can bugger off.

Val McDermid was the main shirt sponsor for Raith Rovers, for this season and next. She is invested in the club emotionally and financially. She is entitled to her view and was supported in her stance by at least one other director of the club, who also resigned his position.

Why did she need to stop and think? She didn't want her club involved with a rapist. Much the same as I would feel if Hibs were wishing to sign someone with Goodwillie's baggage.

In terms of responsibility towards the woman he and his pal violated. McDermid isn't asking anyone to go and interview her, that would be grossly insensitive. If a muck raking gutter rag newspaper feels that is necessary then they carry responsibility for going down that route, not her. By the way, I didn't know the name of the woman who was raped, but if I did, I probably wouldn't be writing it on here.

In general terms people deserve the chance to be rehabilitated. From what's been posted, it seems like he has taken some steps towards that and his life has moved on. The challenge is that if you remain in the public eye then leaving the past behind is always going to be an issue. No one makes Goodwillie remain in the professional football game, that's his choice and he knows it will always bring flak.

[The 90+2]

Val McDermid was the main shirt sponsor for Raith Rovers, for this season and next. She is invested in the club emotionally and financially. She is entitled to her view and was supported in her stance by at least one other director of the club, who also resigned his position.

Why did she need to stop and think? She didn't want her club involved with a rapist. Much the same as I would feel if Hibs were wishing to sign someone with Goodwillie's baggage.

In terms of responsibility towards the woman he and his pal violated. McDermid isn't asking anyone to go and interview her, that would be grossly insensitive. If a muck raking gutter rag newspaper feels that is necessary then they carry responsibility for going down that route, not her. By the way, I didn't know the name of the woman who was raped, but if I did, I probably wouldn't be writing it on here.

In general terms people deserve the chance to be rehabilitated. From what's been posted, it seems like he has taken some steps towards that and his life has moved on. The challenge is that if you remain in the public eye then leaving the past behind is always going to be an issue. No one makes Goodwillie remain in the professional football game, that's his choice and he knows it will always bring flak.

She should done the first part and the message would have been loud and strong. Imo.

It's diluted now.

[ancient hibee]

I would have thought that Scottish football already has fit and proper procedures in place for youth coaches. There is also a pretty ramshackle one for club directors. Players- a bit more difficult.

[superfurryhibby]

She should done the first part and the message would have been loud and strong. Imo.

It's diluted now.

Attaching blame to McDermid for any of this **** show is bizarre. What was diluted, I'm baffled :confused:

[The 90+2]

I would have thought that Scottish football already has fit and proper procedures in place for youth coaches. There is also a pretty ramshackle one for club directors. Players- a bit more difficult.


Sure Marv's been recently convicted of trying to ruin his ex's life. Doesn't seem to stop him coaching and have himself on the TV all the time. Not arguing he shouldn't but it seems one rule for one...

[CropleyWasGod]

I would have thought that Scottish football already has fit and proper procedures in place for youth coaches. There is also a pretty ramshackle one for club directors. Players- a bit more difficult.

Yep.

What VM has done, though, is help continue the debate about the role of footballers in society. Whether that results in a fit and proper test, some sort of code of conduct, or "something else", that conversation can only be a good thing.

Personalising it, or making it just about "this", is a distraction from the wider issues.

[The 90+2]

Attaching blame to McDermid for any of this **** show is bizarre. What was diluted, I'm baffled :confused:

Her strong message that she didn't welcome Goodwillie at the club based on his past. Withdraw sponsorship and say publicly she won't be back - job done

Instead it's had to go further and further and looks like she's enjoying the publicity this is bringing to her.

[ancient hibee]

I see a West Ham player has been kicking and punching his cat?

[The 90+2]

I see a West Ham player has been kicking and punching his cat?


He will at the very worst get a hefty payoff and a luxury signing on fee elsewhere.

[superfurryhibby]

Her strong message that she didn't welcome Goodwillie at the club based on his past. Withdraw sponsorship and say publicly she won't be back - job done

Instead it's had to go further and further and looks like she's enjoying the publicity this is bringing to her.


Nah, not getting any sense that Val McDermid is enjoying any publicity from any of this. That is straying into highly subjective and potentially unpleasant territory for me. Like I said, highly invested in the club, emotionally and financially. Nothing she has said or done merits criticism.

[WhileTheChief..]

Val McDermid was the main shirt sponsor for Raith Rovers, for this season and next. She is invested in the club emotionally and financially. She is entitled to her view and was supported in her stance by at least one other director of the club, who also resigned his position.

Why did she need to stop and think? She didn't want her club involved with a rapist. Much the same as I would feel if Hibs were wishing to sign someone with Goodwillie's baggage.

In terms of responsibility towards the woman he and his pal violated. McDermid isn't asking anyone to go and interview her, that would be grossly insensitive. If a muck raking gutter rag newspaper feels that is necessary then they carry responsibility for going down that route, not her. By the way, I didn't know the name of the woman who was raped, but if I did, I probably wouldn't be writing it on here.

In general terms people deserve the chance to be rehabilitated. From what's been posted, it seems like he has taken some steps towards that and his life has moved on. The challenge is that if you remain in the public eye then leaving the past behind is always going to be an issue. No one makes Goodwillie remain in the professional football game, that's his choice and he knows it will always bring flak.

I thought about that, and was going to just say 'victim'.

Figured that as it's been widely publicised since her interview at the weekend it would seem insensitive of me not to use her name.

Maybe Val might have thought about how it might affect her?

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought about that, and was going to just say 'victim'.

Figured that as it's been widely publicised since her interview at the weekend it would seem insensitive of me not to use her name.

Maybe Val might have thought about how it might affect her?

Maybe she has contacted her? Again, none of our business.

[WhileTheChief..]

Nah, not getting any sense that Val McDermid is enjoying any publicity from any of this. That is straying into highly subjective and potentially unpleasant territory for me. Like I said, highly invested in the club, emotionally and financially. Nothing she has said or done merits criticism.

I don't agree. Where was she 5 years ago when he signed for Clyde?

Why isn't she pointing a finger at John McGlynn, the man who decided he wanted DG and signed him?

No demands for him to be sacked? Ah, no, they're in with a shout of the playoffs this season!!

[WhileTheChief..]

Maybe she has contacted her? Again, none of our business.

The thing is though, with Val's actions, it's the entire country's business now.

People that had never heard of DG are all talking about it now.

Another thing she maybe should have thought about, I'm sure you would agree?

[CropleyWasGod]

The thing is though, with Val's actions, it's the entire country's business now.

People that had never heard of DG are all talking about it now.

Another thing she maybe should have thought about, I'm sure you would agree?

Like I said above, IMO it is a good thing that the debate on the role of footballers in society is continuing.

Whether that's Goodwillie, Rashford, or the cat-kicker, it is a healthy and worthwhile debate if people raise it above personalisation and partisanship.

[superfurryhibby]

I thought about that, and was going to just say 'victim'.

Figured that as it's been widely publicised since her interview at the weekend it would seem insensitive of me not to use her name.

Maybe Val might have thought about how it might affect her?

I wasn't aware that the woman gave interviews to newspapers at the weekend, now that I have looked I can see she also allowed herself to be photographed

I would hazard a guess that she felt it necessary to speak out and that she doesn't feel shame for being a victim.

I don't think it had anything to do with what Val McDermid said and maybe you need to ask yourself why you're trotting out this line?

"Ms Clair, 30, said all those who enabled the player to continue to play senior football despite his lack of remorse and all those who turned a blind eye to it should reflect on their silence but, she said, the country is still failing to curb or properly punish male violence against women".

Widespread condemnation only came last week when best-selling novelist Val McDermid made public her disgust and dismay at Raith Rovers, her club, for signing Goodwillie. She withdrew her sponsorship, as her friend, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, added her criticism, calling for the sport’s authorities to step in; the club’s women’s team severed ties; and fans, including former prime minister Gordon Brown, weighed in to criticise the Fife club’s decision.

But, Ms Clair pointed out, the first minister was less vocal when politicians of all parties – including leaders of all three opposition parties – backed a Sunday Post campaign four years ago to force Goodwillie’s club, Clyde, to sack him and for prosecutors to properly explain why the criminal case against him was dropped in 2011.

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/denise-clair-goodwillie/

[He's here!]

Val McDermid was the main shirt sponsor for Raith Rovers, for this season and next. She is invested in the club emotionally and financially. She is entitled to her view and was supported in her stance by at least one other director of the club, who also resigned his position.

Why did she need to stop and think? She didn't want her club involved with a rapist. Much the same as I would feel if Hibs were wishing to sign someone with Goodwillie's baggage.

In terms of responsibility towards the woman he and his pal violated. McDermid isn't asking anyone to go and interview her, that would be grossly insensitive. If a muck raking gutter rag newspaper feels that is necessary then they carry responsibility for going down that route, not her. By the way, I didn't know the name of the woman who was raped, but if I did, I probably wouldn't be writing it on here.

In general terms people deserve the chance to be rehabilitated. From what's been posted, it seems like he has taken some steps towards that and his life has moved on. The challenge is that if you remain in the public eye then leaving the past behind is always going to be an issue. No one makes Goodwillie remain in the professional football game, that's his choice and he knows it will always bring flak.

The Sunday Post?!

[He's here!]

What are the courses? what are the talks?

Did he pay the money he was ordered to pay the victim of his rape? has he communicated any remorse?

It reads like he has moved on with his life, I wonder if his victim was able to do that.

It's funny that having kids makes you a good person instantly, no one bad could have kids could they!?

Where is that implied? If anything he and his wife may have pondered carefully over whether to have kids at all, bearing in mind this issue will impact on the child's life when she's old enough to learn about it.

Like you I have no idea what courses etc that Goodwillie has attended nor whether he has paid the compensation or communicated remorse. Nor do I know whether Val McDermid is aware of how he's regarded by Clyde. The difficulty I have is that the guy has been earning a wage from football for a number of years now, yet only when he moves clubs does the outrage erupt. I know Raith are McDermid's club, but there seems to be an element of 'not in my back yard' about it all, rather than questioning whether he should have been allowed back into football in the first place.

Which brings us back to the question, where is the line drawn here? Are some offences of such gravity that the perpetrator should effectively be barred from society for good, or is an attempt at rehabilitation the route to take?

[SlickShoes]

No idea. Maybe he has?



He has not.

Also, you do have no idea, your posts are horrifying to read, I am glad I already have 90+2 on mute because I can only imagine the drivel he is piping up with here.

[WhileTheChief..]

He has not.

Also, you do have no idea, your posts are horrifying to read, I am glad I already have 90+2 on mute because I can only imagine the drivel he is piping up with here.

Horrifying???

Ok. Prob best to stick me on ignore for future threads. Pretty much guaranteed you'll find most of my posts on any subject offensive if you feel that way about what I've posted here.

[The 90+2]

He has not.

Also, you do have no idea, your posts are horrifying to read, I am glad I already have 90+2 on mute because I can only imagine the drivel he is piping up with here.


I said love you big boy :aok:

[WhileTheChief..]

I wasn't aware that the woman gave interviews to newspapers at the weekend, now that I have looked I can see she also allowed herself to be photographed

I would hazard a guess that she felt it necessary to speak out and that she doesn't feel shame for being a victim.

I don't think it had anything to do with what Val McDermid said and maybe you need to ask yourself why you're trotting out this line?

"Ms Clair, 30, said all those who enabled the player to continue to play senior football despite his lack of remorse and all those who turned a blind eye to it should reflect on their silence but, she said, the country is still failing to curb or properly punish male violence against women".

Widespread condemnation only came last week when best-selling novelist Val McDermid made public her disgust and dismay at Raith Rovers, her club, for signing Goodwillie. She withdrew her sponsorship, as her friend, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, added her criticism, calling for the sport’s authorities to step in; the club’s women’s team severed ties; and fans, including former prime minister Gordon Brown, weighed in to criticise the Fife club’s decision.

But, Ms Clair pointed out, the first minister was less vocal when politicians of all parties – including leaders of all three opposition parties – backed a Sunday Post campaign four years ago to force Goodwillie’s club, Clyde, to sack him and for prosecutors to properly explain why the criminal case against him was dropped in 2011.

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/denise-clair-goodwillie/

I'm not really trotting out a line.

VM could simply of withdrawn her sponsorship and gone about her business quietly. Instead, she decided to make it a national conversation.

I've offered no opinion at all on anything other than VMs actions.

[SlickShoes]

I'm not really trotting out a line.

VM could simply of withdrawn her sponsorship and gone about her business quietly. Instead, she decided to make it a national conversation.

I've offered no opinion at all on anything other than VMs actions.

Because it should be a national conversation. Men in this country need to treat women better.

Why do you have such a problem with her? What did she do to you that you can't leave it alone?

[Smartie]

Where is that implied? If anything he and his wife may have pondered carefully over whether to have kids at all, bearing in mind this issue will impact on the child's life when she's old enough to learn about it.

Like you I have no idea what courses etc that Goodwillie has attended nor whether he has paid the compensation or communicated remorse. Nor do I know whether Val McDermid is aware of how he's regarded by Clyde. The difficulty I have is that the guy has been earning a wage from football for a number of years now, yet only when he moves clubs does the outrage erupt. I know Raith are McDermid's club, but there seems to be an element of 'not in my back yard' about it all, rather than questioning whether he should have been allowed back into football in the first place.

Which brings us back to the question, where is the line drawn here? Are some offences of such gravity that the perpetrator should effectively be barred from society for good, or is an attempt at rehabilitation the route to take?

Maybe it takes for the player in question to be poised to wear a shirt that has her name on it to really focus the mind on the issue?

I'm sure McDermid would have held an opinion on Goodwillie in the past - but it isn't unreasonable imo for someone to take a keener interest when the subject is forced upon them at closer quarters.

If Goodwillie was linked with Hibs, should we all be quiet about the subject if we hadn't necessarily made a song and dance when he was poised to play for Clyde?

[A Hi-Bee]

Hey, she could be on to something here, if she made it for referees, don't know how many of them could be classed as fit and proper etc, etc.
:thumbsup:

[WhileTheChief..]

Because it should be a national conversation. Men in this country need to treat women better.

Why do you have such a problem with her? What did she do to you that you can't leave it alone?

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

[The 90+2]

He has not.

Also, you do have no idea, your posts are horrifying to read, I am glad I already have 90+2 on mute because I can only imagine the drivel he is piping up with here.

It was actually a decent way of personally ripping 2 posters at once tbh 👍

[The 90+2]

I'm not really trotting out a line.

VM could simply of withdrawn her sponsorship and gone about her business quietly. Instead, she decided to make it a national conversation.

I've offered no opinion at all on anything other than VMs actions.

Burn the witch or you’re against us mentality.

[A Hi-Bee]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

The nanny state grows wings.
:thumbsup:

[Pretty Boy]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

Totally agree.

Why should teachers, social workers, charity volunteers, Priests, youth football coaches, classroom assistants, nurses, scout leaders, dentists etc etc have to answer a set of questions and have their characters judged before being allowed to work?

Oh wait.....

[Kaff]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

It would never be a subjective interview where a panel or person had a broad range of discretion, I’m sure it would be an extension of the existing PVG scheme system that all coaches have to comply with, Graham Rix situation very appropriate here as I’d hope he, or someone with similar conviction, never get permission to coach at any level with this in place now.
Marvins conviction is also relevant and I can only assume he subsequently agreed to undergo rehabilitation or similar as it must be close to an offence that would debarr a coach from working with Vulnerable Groups?
Marvins conviction was not child related but the PVG is not specifically for Children but Vulnerable people.
If I’m honest I would regard the captain of a football club close to being a person of authority and possibly should be considered that they need to pass a PVG check to continue in that role?
It’s a minefield but I can remember the fuss made when Disclosure Scotland started and clubs of every sport and level had to get their coaches and similar vetted and approved, we all thought it was going to be impossible but now we’re onto the PVG and it’s just part of life, I’d far rather checks were made and kids/vulnerable people can go along to these clubs etc with a higher degree of safety.
I’ve never heard of anyone disputing the results of their PVG/Disclosure and I’d think it’s probably kept a few ropey characters away

[WhileTheChief..]

Totally agree.

Why should teachers, social workers, charity volunteers, Priests, youth football coaches, classroom assistants, nurses, scout leaders, dentists etc etc have to answer a set of questions and have their characters judged before being allowed to work?

Oh wait.....

They work with kids and vulnerable people so it’s pretty obvious why.

Footballers don’t.

[Allant1981]

They work with kids and vulnerable people so it’s pretty obvious why.

Footballers don’t.

But they come into contact with kids and vulnerable people so no different

[Bristolhibby]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

Should Hibs not come out and say that they won’t employ a rapist (criminal or civil) as part of our charter or what ever we want to describe such a statement.

Just put a marker that yes, some crimes mean you don’t get to represent our great club.

I would expect us to honour that pledge.

J

Edit - smacking cats and drop kicking them is also on my **** list of “don’t sign this wrong un”.

[WhileTheChief..]

Should Hibs not come out and say that they won’t employ a rapist (criminal or civil) as part of our charter or what ever we want to describe such a statement.

Just put a marker that yes, some crimes mean you don’t get to represent our great club.

I would expect us to honour that pledge.

J

I’d have no problem with that if it was the club that decided to do it.

My gripe is with a a complete stranger, with no accountability to the repercussions, is in effect demanding it by appealing to public opinion.

This thread kind of demonstrates how difficult it will be for any club to put up any kind of objection.

Do we not already do this?! I don’t remember us signing anyone with such a conviction. Not everything has to be written down. Some things are just a given.

[Iggy Pope]

I see a West Ham player has been kicking and punching his cat?

And there are now a long line of people ready to kick and punch the **** out of him .

[Since90+2]

But they come into contact with kids and vulnerable people so no different

Of course it's different.

Unless you seriously think professional footballers have the same level of interaction with children as primary school teachers?

[CropleyWasGod]

I’d have no problem with that if it was the club that decided to do it.

My gripe is with a a complete stranger, with no accountability to the repercussions, is in effect demanding it by appealing to public opinion.

This thread kind of demonstrates how difficult it will be for any club to put up any kind of objection.

Do we not already do this?! I don’t remember us signing anyone with such a conviction. Not everything has to be written down. Some things are just a given.

A complete stranger with a lifelong emotional investment, and substantial financial investment, in the game?

Appealling to public opinion? Why not? Again, it's a public debate that needs to be had.

[Tommy75]

But they come into contact with kids and vulnerable people so no different

I think the difference is that Teachers, doctors etc are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of children and that is part of their job. A child will not be left in the care of a football player. Out of interest, how much contact would a senior player have with children?

[Allant1981]

I think the difference is that Teachers, doctors etc are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of children and that is part of their job. A child will not be left in the care of a football player. Out of interest, how much contact would a senior player have with children?

I have no idea how much contact a player would have

[Allant1981]

Of course it's different.

Unless you seriously think professional footballers have the same level of interaction with children as primary school teachers?

So every pvg gets based on the same level of interaction a teacher has with a kid? I have staff who have to get a pvg done and may never come into contact with patients for more than a few minutes at a time

[CropleyWasGod]

So every pvg gets based on the same level of interaction a teacher has with a kid? I have staff who have to get a pvg done and may never come into contact with patients for more than a few minutes at a time

Hibs.net on some Saturday nights is full of vulnerable people, so players should have Enhanced Disclosure :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

A complete stranger with a lifelong emotional investment, and substantial financial investment, in the game?

Appealling to public opinion? Why not? Again, it's a public debate that needs to be had.

If we’re just answering the point about a fit and proper test for footballers, I’m against it.

On the wider issue, VM didn’t give a damn before he signed for Raith. Now she wants to implement this?

Give it a week or 2 and you’ll not hear another peep from her about it. Or anyone else probably.

[Allant1981]

Hibs.net on some Saturday nights is full of vulnerable people, so players should have Enhanced Disclosure :greengrin

😁😁😁

[superfurryhibby]

If we’re just answering the point about a fit and proper test for footballers, I’m against it.

On the wider issue, VM didn’t give a damn before he signed for Raith. Now she wants to implement this?

Give it a week or 2 and you’ll not hear another peep from her about it. Or anyone else probably.



If we were just answering a point about fit and proper tests checks for footballers, I'm against that too.

However, you're just making stuff up and really have no idea what Val McDermid thought about Goodwillie when he signed for Clyde, just maybe no one actually asked her.

Do you really not see the difference between him signing for a club where she is a main sponsor with a significant financial and emotional investment and her making commenting on the rapist signing for another football team five years ago?

[Tommy75]

If we were just answering a point about fit and proper tests checks for footballers, I'm against that too.

However, you're just making stuff up and really have no idea what Val McDermid thought about Goodwillie when he signed for Clyde, just maybe no one actually asked her.

Do you really not see the difference between him signing for a club where she is a main sponsor with a significant financial and emotional investment and her making commenting on the rapist signing for another football team five years ago?

You say nobody asked her but she is a prominent figure who could have got her views out there if she really wanted to.

[The 90+2]

If we were just answering a point about fit and proper tests checks for footballers, I'm against that too.

However, you're just making stuff up and really have no idea what Val McDermid thought about Goodwillie when he signed for Clyde, just maybe no one actually asked her.

Do you really not see the difference between him signing for a club where she is a main sponsor with a significant financial and emotional investment and her making commenting on the rapist signing for another football team five years ago?


Couldn't she have spoken up at numerous times over the last few years that she wouldn't attend a Raith home game that DW played for Clyde in? I wonder if she may have even attended these games? But that seems to be okay for her because he wasn't employed by the club she funded?

[basehibby]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.

How do you think a 19 year old coming from a foreign country would feel being interogated in this way?

if the goody 2 shoes doing the interview isn't happy, what then? Do we have to honour the players contract?

It's a bat**** mental idea and the knock on effects for the whole of our game are huge.We'd probably be the only country in the world doing this. Say goodbye to signing any players from outwith Scotland.

If she asks for similar treatment of people in her line of work I could maybe take it seriously. But as it is, she's telling others how to live their lives without any responsibility at all. I've no time for anyone like that.

To be fair to VM she has had the issue thrust in her face somewhat considering her role as shirt sponsor at Raith - so don't blame her for being forthright and vocal in her condemnation.

But the Fit & Proper Persons thing - for footballers? That for me is unnecessary and OTT and a bit of a kneejerk reaction on her part.

Different for coaches - but footballers don't have routine close contacts with kids or vulnerable people as part of their jobs so it would seem unnecessary and OTT.

The only thing about footballers is it's a high profile job, and that - as Raith Rovers have learned - can lead to all sorts of complications when considering signing a player with a chequered past. But that should be a matter for the club to work out between themselves and their sponsors and supporters and he press.

I don't see it as right or fair to automatically impose blanket bans for footballers with criminal offences in their past either - surely after "paying the debt to society" a footballer would deserve a chance at rehabilitation as much as anyone else. Of course, in this case no criminal conviction was ever brought - only a civil one - which changes things and makes this a kind of test case in many senses.

Also, considering this involves a sex offence people are naturally much more sensitive about it. It really is a wider societal issue about crime, punishment and rehabilitation - some folk on here would probably terminate contracts on the back of driving offences so opinion will vary widely from case to case.

[Since90+2]

Is there any industry where civil convictions need to be disclosed to employers? As far as I'm aware it's only criminal convictions.

[WhileTheChief..]

To be fair to VM she has had the issue thrust in her face somewhat considering her role as shirt sponsor at Raith - so don't blame her for being forthright and vocal in her condemnation.


The only club in the country to have signed a rapist is Raith.

No other clubs need a charter to tell them that's wrong!

[basehibby]

The only club in the country to have signed a rapist is Raith.

No other clubs need a charter to tell them that's wrong!

What about Clyde?

[He's here!]

The only club in the country to have signed a rapist is Raith.

No other clubs need a charter to tell them that's wrong!

The first club to sign him following the civil case was Clyde and as I've posted earlier in the thread they can't speak highly enough about him.

[WhileTheChief..]

What about Clyde?

Didn't really feel like it needed to be said, it's pretty obvious the point I'm making.

Listen, if you guys are happy for us to have to do what VM is suggesting, then fair do's.

I'll stick to my point of being dead against it for numerous reasons.

I'll not say another word, promise!

[Yorkshire HFC]

What about a test for fans?

[Since452]

What about a test for fans?

We'd all fail.

[jacomo]

Didn't really feel like it needed to be said, it's pretty obvious the point I'm making.

Listen, if you guys are happy for us to have to do what VM is suggesting, then fair do's.

I'll stick to my point of being dead against it for numerous reasons.

I'll not say another word, promise!


I don’t agree with questioning Val McDermid’s motivations here.

She may or may not have expressed her opinion on Goodwillie when he was at Clyde - either way, as a well known face connected to Raith she is entitled to her view now.

I agree with her that they shouldn’t have signed him, but I think any kind of test like the one she is proposing is fraught with difficulty.

Much better, imo, would be to look at the direction and guidance young players get from the clubs themselves. Most will have been connected to a club since they were very young and that club will be the biggest influence on their life outside their family.

If players behave appallingly then the clubs that develop them should question whether they are helping them to become good citizens as well as good players.

[Stubbsy90+2]

Would be interesting to know what Vals thoughts would be on him ending up as an electrician.

Plenty chance of him now not getting a full time gig in football again. Infact I’d imagine there’s a good chance he won’t get a team at all now.

It would seem much safer to have a guy like this playing football full time than leaving him to rewire a young lassies house on his own for example. He’s training to be an electrician now so visiting folks homes etc will probably be a regular occurrence.

Fair enough if she doesn’t want her name attached to a club that employs him but the fit and proper thing is nonsense. She may as well just come out and say that they should have locked him up and thrown away the key, she doesn’t seem to be of the mind that he needs to be allowed to continue to live his life.

[The dalmeny]

Why should a Hibs player, or a potential Hibs player, have to answer a set of questions and have their character judged by strangers before being allowed to work?

It's a blatant infringement on their privacy.



I always thought this was called a job interview.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60576423

Goodwillie loaned back to Clyde. Val McDermid far from happy, which I'm not really surprised about in light of her previous comments and the fact she's a Raith fan . I'm unclear why Sturgeon feels the need to weigh in and criticise Clyde now though, five years after he first signed for them. The club have made it pretty clear they are fully supportive of him.