Raith Rovers

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/valmcdermid/status/1488423803998846977?t=GI5QD396gk2UnxP2hDkULA&s=19

https://news.stv.tv/sport/raith-rovers-spark-controversy-with-signing-of-david-goodwillie

Has to be the worst signing of the transfer window. Raith could be playing in front of very low crowds because of this.

[Northernhibee]

Lots of their fans saying they’ll not be there when he’s there.

[hibby rae]

I have nothing but ill-will towards Goodwillie. If someone gave him a leg breaker, then I'd not feel the slightest bit sorry for him.

Obviously Raith are gambling whatever losses they make are nullified by promotion. Hope they crash and burn.

[Onceinawhile]

Losing your sponsor for next season, to sign a player who hasn't played at that level for a number of years, seems like madness.

That's before you even think of the wider impact.

[JohnM1875]

They'll cancel his contract, surely?

[Danderhall Hibs]

If he scores goals and helps get them promoted I bet those in uproar will drift into the background.

[Danderhall Hibs]

They'll cancel his contract, surely?

From what I was reading they tested the water over the month and chose to go ahead with it anyway.

[Vault Boy]

Abhorrent. Credit to their fans for an almost unified condemnation.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Abhorrent. Credit to their fans for an almost unified condemnation.

It’ll be interesting to see how it impacts their attendances.

[JohnM1875]

From what I was reading they tested the water over the month and chose to go ahead with it anyway.

Wow, that is really poor decision making from Raith then. Fair play to their fans for letting them know their feelings on it.

[Smartie]

From what I was reading they tested the water over the month and chose to go ahead with it anyway.

I certainly heard a fairly public discussion over the month of January and knew, for example, Val McDermid’s strength of feeling.

That Raith have gone ahead and said “f it” and signed him after all that is pretty astonishing.

If he was a player of Lionel Messi’s ability then I can maybe understand why they’d maybe prepared to accept some collateral damage. I just don’t get it for him, even accepting that he was a decent prospect in his youth.

Seems a huge own goal to me and even with the backlash I don’t see how they can backtrack now.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I certainly heard a fairly public discussion over the month of January and knew, for example, Val McDermid’s strength of feeling.

That Raith have gone ahead and said “f it” and signed him after all that is pretty astonishing.

If he was a player of Lionel Messi’s ability then I can maybe understand why they’d maybe prepared to accept some collateral damage. I just don’t get it for him, even accepting that he was a decent prospect in his youth.

Seems a huge own goal to me and even with the backlash I don’t see how they can backtrack now.

It would be some backtrack - they knew this would be the reaction so can’t see why they’d backtrack. He’s scored a load of goals for Clyde (why wasn’t there as big a backlash when he signed for them?)

Massive own goal by RR. Massive distraction for them that could hinder the promotion push rather than help it.

[hibby rae]

Their last league win was 11 December. Must be panicking.

Best of luck to Arbroath, Killie, Caley, and Partick.

[hibby rae]

Shaughan McGuigan (@ShaughanM) Tweeted: Not sure what to say about this really, but I’m genuinely upset. The club has done so many good things on and off the park recently, and for the decision makers to rip up all that good work to make this signing makes absolutely zero sense. A bewildering and appalling move. https://twitter.com/ShaughanM/status/1488293987710607363?s=20&t=-EyPsB4qmMzNqducD14zmw

He's also shared Rape Crisis Scotland's tweet about it

[jacomo]

If he scores goals and helps get them promoted I bet those in uproar will drift into the background.


They might go quiet but they might drift away from the club for good.

They are playing with fire here.

[SHODAN]

The Raith Women's captain has now quit.

[JamesHFC]

The signing really wasn’t worth it, guys a beast ffs.

[500miles]

The only defence of the signing to me is that Declan Gallagher was forgiven for a baseball bat attack that could have killed the victim.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Raith Women's captain has now quit.

And their "Supporters' Director", Andrew Mill, has now quit the board.

And their Supporters Liaison Officer has now also quit.

[mayo hibee]

I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Gallagher being signed than with Goodwillie. Both are a blight on Scottish football. How Gallagher was capped for Scotland, let alone picked in the Euros squad is beyond me. I couldn't support any team with him in it.

[Paul1642]

The only defence of the signing to me is that Declan Gallagher was forgiven for a baseball bat attack that could have killed the victim.

And David Martindale spent a one in prison for involvement with serious crime groups including supply of cocaine. None these people have any place in Scottish football IMO.

[hibee1875]

The only defence of the signing to me is that Declan Gallagher was forgiven for a baseball bat attack that could have killed the victim.

There is no defence of it

[Danderhall Hibs]

And David Martindale spent a one in prison for involvement with serious crime groups including supply of cocaine. None these people have any place in Scottish football IMO.

What about drink drivers?

[500miles]

And David Martindale spent a one in prison for involvement with serious crime groups including supply of cocaine. None these people have any place in Scottish football IMO.

I'm no comfortable with drawing parallels with someone selling gear to willing buyers with potentially deadly beating and rape.

[hibby rae]

I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Gallagher being signed than with Goodwillie. Both are a blight on Scottish football. How Gallagher was capped for Scotland, let alone picked in the Euros squad is beyond me. I couldn't support any team with him in it.

Levein also picked Goodwillie for Scotland after the police said they didn't have enough evidence for criminal proceedings.

[BoomtownHibees]

The only defence of the signing to me is that Declan Gallagher was forgiven for a baseball bat attack that could have killed the victim.

I’d rather have him on my team than an apparent rapist tbf. Maybe just me

[hibby rae]

I'm no comfortable with drawing parallels with someone selling gear to willing buyers with potentially deadly beating and rape.

Yep, if there's scale, which there kind of is, sexual assault crimes are worse. Being a footballer is a privilege, some crimes you can atone for, others you can't and you give up a right to that position. Being a rapist is one of those crimes.

If he had been found guilty of sexual assualt against a minor in a civil court, there wouldn't even be a conversation.

[500miles]

Yep, if there's scale, which there kind of is, sexual assault crimes are worse. Being a footballer is a privilege, some crimes you can atone for, others you can't and you give up a right to that position. Being a rapist is one of those crimes.

If he had been found guilty of sexual assualt against a minor in a civil court, there wouldn't even be a conversation.

I think we're happy to talk about degrees of assault and murder, less so for sex crimes. Gallagher could have killed that boy.

[GordonR]

All eyes on their most famous lifelong fan (and shareholder in the club) the very moral and upright Gordon Brown.

[Steven79]

All eyes on their most famous lifelong fan (and shareholder in the club) the very moral and upright Gordon Brown.

He's a self serving c##t.

Should have been kicked out of Scotland after his guff in 2014.

[hibbyfraelibby]

All eyes on their most famous lifelong fan (and shareholder in the club) the very moral and upright Gordon Brown.

No chance. As the FM has condemned it Brown's DNA will kick in and take thep oposite stance just because.

[Steven79]

No chance. As the FM has condemned it Brown's DNA will kick in and take thepposite stance just because.

Pretty much this.

If Nicola says white then that twat will say black.

[Since452]

Why was it deemed ok to play at Clyde and not Raith Rovers?

[Coco Bryce]

Why was it deemed ok to play at Clyde and not Raith Rovers?

This :agree:

[Steven79]

Why was it deemed ok to play at Clyde and not Raith Rovers?

I don't think it is but they are a higher profile club than Clyde and Raith claim to be a community club and they have just shat over them by signing him.

The manager and board that approved this transfer all need to fall on their swords...

[hibbyfraelibby]

Why was it deemed ok to play at Clyde and not Raith Rovers?

I think you'll find there was a stink at the time.

[SlickShoes]

Why was it deemed ok to play at Clyde and not Raith Rovers?

Every club he’s signed for since this the fans haven’t been happy, so it’s not exactly a shock the faith fans are also raging.

It just depends if the fans stick to their guns or not and continue to avoid the team because of it.

I certainly would not support hibs while a player like this played for the club.

[Paul1642]

I'm no comfortable with drawing parallels with someone selling gear to willing buyers with potentially deadly beating and rape.

I’m the country with a drug death rate as high as ours dealers should be viewed for what they are. They ruin as many lives as any other category of criminal.

[Paul1642]

What about drink drivers?

Also completely inexcusable however for whatever reason fans don’t seem to mind this particular offence.

[Pretty Boy]

Really feel for the Raith fans but totally understand where Val McDermid and others are coming from.

I love Hibs more than just about anything other than my family but if we signed Goddwillie or similar then for as long as they were at the club, I wouldn't be.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Had a quick scan at Twitter - looks like almost everyone has resigned now. Some size of a board they had - who’s left? They’ll be taking the blame for it presumably? You’d have thought the board would have to agree rather than 1 renegade making the call?

[500miles]

I’m the country with a drug death rate as high as ours dealers should be viewed for what they are. They ruin as many lives as any other category of criminal.

I look forward to you picketing your local off licence.

[Sir David Gray]

I am in agreement with Val McDermid here and I would not want David Goodwillie anywhere near Hibs but from Raith Rovers' point of view they're obviously viewing it from the point of view that he has no criminal convictions in relation to this matter and it was a civil court, which obviously requires a lower standard of evidence, that found him guilty rather than a criminal one.

I definitely think he is guilty as sin though and I doubt the woman would have been awarded £100,000 in compensation if he and Robertson were innocent along with three appeal judges throwing out the appeal.

Raith Rovers are taking a huge risk here, particularly if more sponsors start pulling out of the club. I'm unsure if fans turning away will really happen though, whilst I've no doubt that some will, I think the majority will carry on attending games particularly if he scores goals for them. Sadly that's all some people will be bothered about.

He's always been a nasty piece of work since he was a teenager. As he grew up in Stirling I have heard from a few police officers who had the "pleasure" of dealing with him when he was about 15 or 16 and whilst the stuff he was getting up to back then was not on the same scale to committing rape, it's not a massive surprise to me that he's ended up doing what he's done.

[Lendo]

Putting aside the rape for a second, I just don’t think he’s a good signing regardless. He’s been part-time at Clyde for ages now. Can’t see him doing well.

[archie]

He's a self serving c##t.

Should have been kicked out of Scotland after his guff in 2014.Really! What's the relevance to the story?

[The 90+2]

I am in agreement with Val McDermid here and I would not want David Goodwillie anywhere near Hibs but from Raith Rovers' point of view they're obviously viewing it from the point of view that he has no criminal convictions in relation to this matter and it was a civil court, which obviously requires a lower standard of evidence, that found him guilty rather than a criminal one.

I definitely think he is guilty as sin though and I doubt the woman would have been awarded £100,000 in compensation if he and Robertson were innocent along with three appeal judges throwing out the appeal.

Raith Rovers are taking a huge risk here, particularly if more sponsors start pulling out of the club. I'm unsure if fans turning away will really happen though, whilst I've no doubt that some will, I think the majority will carry on attending games particularly if he scores goals for them. Sadly that's all some people will be bothered about.

He's always been a nasty piece of work since he was a teenager. As he grew up in Stirling I have heard from a few police officers who had the "pleasure" of dealing with him when he was about 15 or 16 and whilst the stuff he was getting up to back then was not on the same scale to committing rape, it's not a massive surprise to me that he's ended up doing what he's done.


People do grow up and change though. Not saying he has but there's lots of reports on lots of charity work and doing things for free while at Clyde. It doesn't make it excusable and it isn't to say it's the correct decision for Raith to make but they may see it as continual rehabilitation for a guy that has already paid the price heavily both financially and career wise.

[hibby rae]

Raith are at home this evening, so it'll be interesting to see what the turnout is, or if there is a form of protest etc.

[JamesHFC]

What about drink drivers?

Marcus Alonso who plays for Chelsea killed a 22 year old woman by driving 112 km/h on a road which had a speed limit of 50 km/h whilst over the influence with a blood alcohol level of 0.93 mg per millilitre.

Was sentenced to 21 months in prison but the the punishment was reduced to a €61,000 fine and three years without his license because it was seen as ‘an accident and not an intention of murder”.

Unbelievable really.

[AltheHibby]

As nobody else has mentioned him I will.

Rix. Not a rapist but still a convicted sex offender who was welcomed across the road.

[cabbageandribs1875]

People do grow up and change though. Not saying he has but there's lots of reports on lots of charity work and doing things for free while at Clyde. It doesn't make it excusable and it isn't to say it's the correct decision for Raith to make but they may see it as continual rehabilitation for a guy that has already paid the price heavily both financially and career wise.


that's a fair post and points made

[chrisski33]

People do grow up and change though. Not saying he has but there's lots of reports on lots of charity work and doing things for free while at Clyde. It doesn't make it excusable and it isn't to say it's the correct decision for Raith to make but they may see it as continual rehabilitation for a guy that has already paid the price heavily both financially and career wise.

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.

[Allant1981]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.

Definitely not excusing what he done as i think he is a piece of s**t, but what should he be doing for a job?

[dp00]

Sounds like a bad decision by raith and I certainly wouldn’t want him near hibs however I do think the timing haven’t helped them given what’s happened with mason greenwood


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.
Alternative view: he has'nt been found guilty of any crime, and he has paid the fine imposed by the civil court.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.


so going by that a bricklayer that rapes a woman must never be allowed to lay a brick again, and has society never to allow rehabilitation of any offenders no matter the crime ? i'm all for pre-meditated murderers(and serial rapists) getting a deprivation of liberty for a very long time , and if that poor young woman was my daughter i would have wanted to do serious harm to him/whoever but sitting nice and calm now i know full well that would have been wrong of me, two wrongs doesn't make a right and all that

[Hibees1973]

Good points made here in favour/not in favour of him signing.

No matter what peoples' opinions are this is all over the news 'at national level' and it was a shocking decision by Raith's management to damage their own reputation.

[hibby rae]

so going by that a bricklayer that rapes a woman must never be allowed to lay a brick again, and has society never to allow rehabilitation of any offenders no matter the crime ? i'm all for pre-meditated murderers(and serial rapists) getting a deprivation of liberty for a very long time , and if that poor young woman was my daughter i would have wanted to do serious harm to him/whoever but sitting nice and calm now i know full well that would have been wrong of me, two wrongs doesn't make a right and all that

He has shown no contrition for his crime.

[He's here!]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.

How would he do that? While he's part of society he has to earn a living somehow. I'm unclear what sort of career would be deemed acceptable for him to have.

[HFC93]

It's an awful decision, a PR disaster, and I respect respect Val McDermid and others decision to walk away. But I'd still go to Hibs games even if we signed Satan himself. My loyalty is blind.

[jacomo]

so going by that a bricklayer that rapes a woman must never be allowed to lay a brick again, and has society never to allow rehabilitation of any offenders no matter the crime ? i'm all for pre-meditated murderers(and serial rapists) getting a deprivation of liberty for a very long time , and if that poor young woman was my daughter i would have wanted to do serious harm to him/whoever but sitting nice and calm now i know full well that would have been wrong of me, two wrongs doesn't make a right and all that


We’ve been down this road before.

Being a pro footballer is a privilege, not a right. It comes with a certain number of responsibilities.

Rehabilitation is a very important part of the justice process but it doesn’t necessarily mean it should happen in a high profile job.

[MWHIBBIES]

so going by that a bricklayer that rapes a woman must never be allowed to lay a brick again, and has society never to allow rehabilitation of any offenders no matter the crime ? i'm all for pre-meditated murderers(and serial rapists) getting a deprivation of liberty for a very long time , and if that poor young woman was my daughter i would have wanted to do serious harm to him/whoever but sitting nice and calm now i know full well that would have been wrong of me, two wrongs doesn't make a right and all that

Wasn't he moaning about having a **** car and a small house now? He has shown no remorse whatsoever, so he definitely doesn't deserve this chance.

[hibby rae]

Definitely not excusing what he done as i think he is a piece of s**t, but what should he be doing for a job?

Being a footballer is a privilege, he forfeited that. He certainly shouldn't be in a position such as this, where they are inevitably role models.


Alternative view: he has'nt been found guilty of any crime, and he has paid the fine imposed by the civil court.

Found guilty by a judge in a civil court, and then by 3 judges when he appealed the sentence. Has shown no remorse for his actions. Would you be saying this if the victim was a minor?


'Gayle McGregor said: "She wasn't in control of herself. Her eyes were rolling in her head. She couldn't stand up straight. She couldn't speak to me properly. She wasn't compos mentis."

In the action it was said the players offered her a lift home in a taxi, but the driver was requested to drop all three at the flat in Armadale.'

[Steve20]

I am astonished, and frankly disgusted, that there's people even hinting he should be allowed to play Football. Sorry, but there are some crimes you shouldn't come back from and rape is one of them.

People that think it's ok for him to be in Football need to have a look at themselves.

[cabbageandribs1875]

He has shown no contrition for his crime.


Wasn't he moaning about having a **** car and a small house now? He has shown no remorse whatsoever, so he definitely doesn't deserve this chance.


so he's a PoS we all agree, but i'm sticking to my guns here ;) it was up to other football clubs/supporters to decide whether he deserved another chance, the (alleged) crimes of mendy and Greenwood will still probably see them playing again,...even after jail time

[The 90+2]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.


And I'm sure the regret and disgust at himself and who he's let down, his family, friends etc he will have to live with for the rest of his live in a rather public manor.

Why should he not have any sort of career? You only get one life and part of the human race's biggest morals is having forgiveness. Maybe the girl has shown that and I hope she's living a really well and good life that she deserves.

[stuart-farquhar]

Yet the harm and damage he did to the girl will be with her all her life! He shouldnt have a career in football.
Should pay the price for what he did for rest of his life.

That's a fair and interesting point. The determining of the price however is the hard part.

[The 90+2]

so going by that a bricklayer that rapes a woman must never be allowed to lay a brick again, and has society never to allow rehabilitation of any offenders no matter the crime ? i'm all for pre-meditated murderers(and serial rapists) getting a deprivation of liberty for a very long time , and if that poor young woman was my daughter i would have wanted to do serious harm to him/whoever but sitting nice and calm now i know full well that would have been wrong of me, two wrongs doesn't make a right and all that


:agree:

Although I'm a hypocrite and if anyone was found to do anything relatively similar to my two daughters I would 100% end up doing jail time myself.

[The 90+2]

That's a fair and interesting point. The determining of the price however is the hard part.


£100k. It was found.

[MWHIBBIES]

so he's a PoS we all agree, but i'm sticking to my guns here ;) it was up to other football clubs/supporters to decide whether he deserved another chance, the (alleged) crimes of mendy and Greenwood will still probably see them playing again,...even after jail time

Mendy will never play again. He is 27 and being charged with 7 counts of rape.

[The 90+2]

Wasn't he moaning about having a **** car and a small house now? He has shown no remorse whatsoever, so he definitely doesn't deserve this chance.

Maybe he genuinely doesn't think he is guilty? (not for one second saying he isn't).

"He's a perfect professional. He's taken on everything - hearings, he's attended courses, done talks and he's managing to get his life back in order," Lennon says.
"He's had a flavour of what it's like at the high end down at Blackburn making loads and loads, and he's coming to the real world. But you wouldn't know that, we still see the same effort and quality from him.
"The way he's got his life back in order, happily married, wee baby girl, and doing an electrician's apprenticeship. He's now club captain and that's because of the qualities and character I see in the man.

[hibby rae]

A civil court. I was making the point that he has neither been charged with, nor found guilty of, a crime (in a criminal court).

I'm not saying he was right, nor am I defending him. Just picking up on people posting on here about him being guilty of a crime. He wasn't.

His remorse or lack of remorse, and the age of the victim, make no difference to whether he can be described as criminal.

But he is guilty, just because it's a civil court it doesn't mean he wasn't found guilty it just so happens the burden of proof isn't as high.

They took a girl away from the club, who couldn't stand or speak, and gave the impression they were going to look after her and take her home. Instead they took her back to a flat and both raped her. There were no witnesses to the actual act, and she was unconscious.

So I'm sorry, but spare me the semantics. He is a rapist.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Mendy will never play again. He is 27 and being charged with 7 counts of rape.


that's what my edit was which i then deleted :)

mendy possibly not

[Pretty Boy]

I think rape and sexual assault are the kind of crimes in which you can only really appreciate the ongoing consequences when you have 1st or very close 2nd hand experience.

I've told the story before but a girl in a group of friends I was close to was raped by another member of the group. It absolutely decimated what had been a close group and friendships and support networks were irreparably damaged. He was actually found not guilty of that particular crime and that was at the root of a lot of the issues. A few people took his side and accused the victim of 'ruining his life'. She hadn't lied, she had told the truth as she saw it and genuinely believed she had been raped, there was no fabrication. The perpetrator was not long after convicted of 2 other rapes a serious sexual assault, which lends further weight to my steadfast belief that he raped my friend as well. There are a lot of parallels with the Goodwillie case and the vents of the night I witnessed. As I said his actions led to a complete breakdown in friendships, a suicide attempt and a multitude of mental health issues, flashbacks and a girl who simply oozed confidence becoming withdrawn and reclusive for several years. Over a decade after the event I still play the events of the night over in my head so God alone knows what it must be like for victims of such crimes.

I accept rehabilitation should be the aim of the justice system but I also believe that comes with the caveat there must be contrition, an expression of remorse and an understanding of the impact of an individuals actions on another. In the case of the guy I spoke about above I would be sceptical of any claims of rehabilitation. I watched him ingratiate himself into a group, I watched him charm women and gain their trust, I watched him manipulate men into turning a blind eye to or even facilitating behaviour I now recognise as problematic and I watched him manoeuvre the victim into a position where it was easy for him to strike. He was and is utterly convincing and people meeting him would be left with the impression of having met 'a really nice guy'. I firmly believe he could deceive well meaning people into believing they had rehabilitated him.

Goodwillie is a total ****bag who has shown no contrition for his actions. It may well be his right to play football for a living but any club that employs him won't get a penny from me for as long as that's the case. He's still in a relatively privileged position all things considered, I wonder if the same can be said for the other lives he impacted through his actions.

[chrisski33]

Definitely not excusing what he done as i think he is a piece of s**t, but what should he be doing for a job?

Not something that kids tend to look at the employees, footballers in this instance,as folk that inspire them and they look up to.
Football should be sending a strong message out that they won't tolerate **** like him especially whats happened with Greenwood.
Certainly know if some posters who seem to want to give him a second chance ir claim hes gone through some sort of rehabilitation had a daughter and he had raped her they would think otherwise. Rehabilitation is aload of rubbish with his act, he knew what he did was wrong and was proved guilty in the civil case.

[chrisski33]

I am astonished, and frankly disgusted, that there's people even hinting he should be allowed to play Football. Sorry, but there are some crimes you shouldn't come back from and rape is one of them.

People that think it's ok for him to be in Football need to have a look at themselves.

Hear Hear!
Football as a whole needs to make a stance against these lowlifes who rape. No 2nd chances. No tolerance.

[hibby rae]

I think rape and sexual assault are the kind of crimes in which you can only really appreciate the ongoing consequences when you have 1st or very close 2nd hand experience.

I've told the story before but a girl in a group of friends I was close to was raped by another member of the group. It absolutely decimated what had been a close group and friendships and support networks were irreparably damaged. He was actually found not guilty of that particular crime and that was at the root of a lot of the issues. A few people took his side and accused the victim of 'ruining his life'. She hadn't lied, she had told the truth as she saw it and genuinely believed she had been raped, there was no fabrication. The perpetrator was not long after convicted of 2 other rapes a serious sexual assault, which lends further weight to my steadfast belief that he raped my friend as well. There are a lot of parallels with the Goodwillie case and the vents of the night I witnessed. As I said his actions led to a complete breakdown in friendships, a suicide attempt and a multitude of mental health issues, flashbacks and a girl who simply oozed confidence becoming withdrawn and reclusive for several years. Over a decade after the event I still play the events of the night over in my head so God alone knows what it must be like for victims of such crimes.

I accept rehabilitation should be the aim of the justice system but I also believe that comes with the caveat there must be contrition, an expression of remorse and an understanding of the impact of an individuals actions on another. In the case of the guy I spoke about above I would be sceptical of any claims of rehabilitation. I watched him ingratiate himself into a group, I watched him charm women and gain their trust, I watched him manipulate men into turning a blind eye to or even facilitating behaviour I now recognise as problematic and I watched him manoeuvre the victim into a position where it was easy for him to strike. He was and is utterly convincing and people meeting him would be left with the impression of having met 'a really nice guy'. I firmly believe he could deceive well meaning people into believing they had rehabilitated him.

Goodwillie is a total ****bag who has shown no contrition for his actions. It may well be his right to play football for a living but any club that employs him won't get a penny from me for as long as that's the case. He's still in a relatively privileged position all things considered, I wonder if the same can be said for the other lives he impacted through his actions.

Very good post, I agree with everything you said.

I too know someone who experienced the same thing. Happened to her about 11 years ago and suffers from PTSD to this day.

[Northernhibee]

I think rape and sexual assault are the kind of crimes in which you can only really appreciate the ongoing consequences when you have 1st or very close 2nd hand experience.

I've told the story before but a girl in a group of friends I was close to was raped by another member of the group. It absolutely decimated what had been a close group and friendships and support networks were irreparably damaged. He was actually found not guilty of that particular crime and that was at the root of a lot of the issues. A few people took his side and accused the victim of 'ruining his life'. She hadn't lied, she had told the truth as she saw it and genuinely believed she had been raped, there was no fabrication. The perpetrator was not long after convicted of 2 other rapes a serious sexual assault, which lends further weight to my steadfast belief that he raped my friend as well. There are a lot of parallels with the Goodwillie case and the vents of the night I witnessed. As I said his actions led to a complete breakdown in friendships, a suicide attempt and a multitude of mental health issues, flashbacks and a girl who simply oozed confidence becoming withdrawn and reclusive for several years. Over a decade after the event I still play the events of the night over in my head so God alone knows what it must be like for victims of such crimes.

I accept rehabilitation should be the aim of the justice system but I also believe that comes with the caveat there must be contrition, an expression of remorse and an understanding of the impact of an individuals actions on another. In the case of the guy I spoke about above I would be sceptical of any claims of rehabilitation. I watched him ingratiate himself into a group, I watched him charm women and gain their trust, I watched him manipulate men into turning a blind eye to or even facilitating behaviour I now recognise as problematic and I watched him manoeuvre the victim into a position where it was easy for him to strike. He was and is utterly convincing and people meeting him would be left with the impression of having met 'a really nice guy'. I firmly believe he could deceive well meaning people into believing they had rehabilitated him.

Goodwillie is a total ****bag who has shown no contrition for his actions. It may well be his right to play football for a living but any club that employs him won't get a penny from me for as long as that's the case. He's still in a relatively privileged position all things considered, I wonder if the same can be said for the other lives he impacted through his actions.

The rates of sexual assaults making it to court, never mind being convicted are absolutely ****ing appalling and the tendency for some lowlives to blame victims if it doesn't go through just makes it more difficult for victims of sexual assault to come forward.

Truly hope your friend has enough of a support network still in place.

[Keepthefaith]

I think rape and sexual assault are the kind of crimes in which you can only really appreciate the ongoing consequences when you have 1st or very close 2nd hand experience.

I've told the story before but a girl in a group of friends I was close to was raped by another member of the group. It absolutely decimated what had been a close group and friendships and support networks were irreparably damaged. He was actually found not guilty of that particular crime and that was at the root of a lot of the issues. A few people took his side and accused the victim of 'ruining his life'. She hadn't lied, she had told the truth as she saw it and genuinely believed she had been raped, there was no fabrication. The perpetrator was not long after convicted of 2 other rapes a serious sexual assault, which lends further weight to my steadfast belief that he raped my friend as well. There are a lot of parallels with the Goodwillie case and the vents of the night I witnessed. As I said his actions led to a complete breakdown in friendships, a suicide attempt and a multitude of mental health issues, flashbacks and a girl who simply oozed confidence becoming withdrawn and reclusive for several years. Over a decade after the event I still play the events of the night over in my head so God alone knows what it must be like for victims of such crimes.

I accept rehabilitation should be the aim of the justice system but I also believe that comes with the caveat there must be contrition, an expression of remorse and an understanding of the impact of an individuals actions on another. In the case of the guy I spoke about above I would be sceptical of any claims of rehabilitation. I watched him ingratiate himself into a group, I watched him charm women and gain their trust, I watched him manipulate men into turning a blind eye to or even facilitating behaviour I now recognise as problematic and I watched him manoeuvre the victim into a position where it was easy for him to strike. He was and is utterly convincing and people meeting him would be left with the impression of having met 'a really nice guy'. I firmly believe he could deceive well meaning people into believing they had rehabilitated him.

Goodwillie is a total ****bag who has shown no contrition for his actions. It may well be his right to play football for a living but any club that employs him won't get a penny from me for as long as that's the case. He's still in a relatively privileged position all things considered, I wonder if the same can be said for the other lives he impacted through his actions.

Sorry to hear of your experiences but thank you for sharing as you articulate the problem here really well. Rape has everything to do with abuse of power and coercion is a big part of this. More men need to speak up against the abuse of women in this way and our sons and grandsons educated.

As others have pointed out, a right to rehabilitation is one thing but remorse and accountability have to sit alongside.

[overdrive]

I get the rehabilitation angle but has he ever shown any remorse for what he did? That might be the difference between him and the likes of Martindale (certainly - I've heard him express remorse) and Gallagher (I'm not sure if he has). Sex crimes do have more of a revulsion around them, mind you.

Interestingly, whilst I was reading up about Gallagher to see whether he has expressed any remorse, I read that he trained with Raith Rovers when he was moved to an open prison.

[JimBHibees]

I think rape and sexual assault are the kind of crimes in which you can only really appreciate the ongoing consequences when you have 1st or very close 2nd hand experience.

I've told the story before but a girl in a group of friends I was close to was raped by another member of the group. It absolutely decimated what had been a close group and friendships and support networks were irreparably damaged. He was actually found not guilty of that particular crime and that was at the root of a lot of the issues. A few people took his side and accused the victim of 'ruining his life'. She hadn't lied, she had told the truth as she saw it and genuinely believed she had been raped, there was no fabrication. The perpetrator was not long after convicted of 2 other rapes a serious sexual assault, which lends further weight to my steadfast belief that he raped my friend as well. There are a lot of parallels with the Goodwillie case and the vents of the night I witnessed. As I said his actions led to a complete breakdown in friendships, a suicide attempt and a multitude of mental health issues, flashbacks and a girl who simply oozed confidence becoming withdrawn and reclusive for several years. Over a decade after the event I still play the events of the night over in my head so God alone knows what it must be like for victims of such crimes.

I accept rehabilitation should be the aim of the justice system but I also believe that comes with the caveat there must be contrition, an expression of remorse and an understanding of the impact of an individuals actions on another. In the case of the guy I spoke about above I would be sceptical of any claims of rehabilitation. I watched him ingratiate himself into a group, I watched him charm women and gain their trust, I watched him manipulate men into turning a blind eye to or even facilitating behaviour I now recognise as problematic and I watched him manoeuvre the victim into a position where it was easy for him to strike. He was and is utterly convincing and people meeting him would be left with the impression of having met 'a really nice guy'. I firmly believe he could deceive well meaning people into believing they had rehabilitated him.

Goodwillie is a total ****bag who has shown no contrition for his actions. It may well be his right to play football for a living but any club that employs him won't get a penny from me for as long as that's the case. He's still in a relatively privileged position all things considered, I wonder if the same can be said for the other lives he impacted through his actions.

What a heartbreaking story that is. Thanks for sharing.

[grunt]

So I'm sorry, but spare me the semantics. Semantics are important if we're discussing legal matters.

He is a rapist.This is true. But not, apparently, a criminal.

[Sergio sledge]

He has shown no contrition for his crime.

And this, IMHO, is key.

Someone mentioned Martindale earlier in the thread, but I have no problem with him in the position he is in because he did his time and shows a lot of contrition and remorse for what he has done as well as trying to educate others to not make the same mistakes he did: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/04/david-martindales-journey-from-prison-to-leading-livingston

He's a perfect example of the rehabilitation that our justice system should offer people.

Goodwillie has shown none of this that I can see, if he had then maybe the argument for clubs to sign him would be stronger.

[Allant1981]

Not something that kids tend to look at the employees, footballers in this instance,as folk that inspire them and they look up to.
Football should be sending a strong message out that they won't tolerate **** like him especially whats happened with Greenwood.
Certainly know if some posters who seem to want to give him a second chance ir claim hes gone through some sort of rehabilitation had a daughter and he had raped her they would think otherwise. Rehabilitation is aload of rubbish with his act, he knew what he did was wrong and was proved guilty in the civil case.

I agree with almost everything you say, i have 2 daughters myself and probably wouldnt be nice if he had taken advantage of one of them like that, im still not sure though on the not playing football part, its a job like any other job at the end of the day so surely he shouldnt be denied that right to employment, again im probably contradicting myself as i wouldnt want him near our club

[hibby rae]

Semantics are important if we're discussing legal matters.
This is true. But not, apparently, a criminal.

I'm sorry, if you acknowledge he's a rapist (which four judges also ruled he was), then what exactly is your point? Because you're coming across as very obtuse.

[grunt]

I'm sorry, if you acknowledge he's a rapist (which four judges also ruled he was), then what exactly is your point? Because you're coming across as very obtuse.
Obtuse is my middle name.

[Onceinawhile]

£100k. It was found.

50k for goodwillie, because it was split between him and another defendant. Don't think he paid it though as he declared for bankruptcy.

[hibby rae]

Obtuse is my middle name.

So you're basically trolling in a conversation about sexual assault. How mature. :rolleyes:

[mayo hibee]

I would have no issue with Goodwillie becoming a bricklayer (or and electrician which it appears is what he might do after football). Completely different situation to continuing as a pro footballer though.


I get the rehabilitation angle but has he ever shown any remorse for what he did? That might be the difference between him and the likes of Martindale (certainly - I've heard him express remorse) and Gallagher (I'm not sure if he has). Sex crimes do have more of a revulsion around them, mind you.

Interestingly, whilst I was reading up about Gallagher to see whether he has expressed any remorse, I read that he trained with Raith Rovers when he was moved to an open prison.

Gallagher has never showed any remorse, he goes on about how he has served his time etc. but that's meaningless if he's not remorseful. He shouldn't be involved in football.

Martindale is different - it does genuinely appear that he knows he has made mistakes and has learned lessons. On that basis I don't have an issue with him being involved in football, unlike the other two.

[jacomo]

Obtuse is my middle name.


Fine, but you’ve got this wrong.

He’s not a convicted criminal, in the narrow legal sense.

But there are plenty of criminals who haven’t been convicted by a court. They are still criminals.

[oldbutdim]

I get the rehabilitation angle but has he ever shown any remorse for what he did? That might be the difference between him and the likes of Martindale (certainly - I've heard him express remorse) and Gallagher (I'm not sure if he has). Sex crimes do have more of a revulsion around them, mind you.

Interestingly, whilst I was reading up about Gallagher to see whether he has expressed any remorse, I read that he trained with Raith Rovers when he was moved to an open prison.


Good willie wasn't prosecuted due to a lack of sufficient evidence, hence the civil case.

If he 'expressed remorse/contrition' then he could very well end up facing charges, because that would indeed be sufficient evidence, basically an admission of guilt.

I guess that's one reason he insists that whatever happened was with the consent of the victim.

[Lendo]

Kickbacks thread on this is predictably going down the Woke Cancel Culture route. Val McDermid is a man-hating feminist, blah blah…

Just heard that Raith’s stadium announcer has just quit in protest too. Lucky if they have any staff left. I can see John McGlynn resigning this evening after the match. He never wanted him signed, purely a board decision.

[Sean1875]

https://www.raithrovers.net/52429/club-statement-10.htm

They’ve released a statement and, quite remarkably, made it worse. Can only assume it was Goodwillie that wrote it.


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[Radium]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220201/89df6cfdc552cb6e409465bde37addb1.png


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[hibby rae]

https://www.raithrovers.net/52429/club-statement-10.htm

They’ve released a statement and, quite remarkably, made it worse. Can only assume it was Goodwillie that wrote it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They might as well have just wrote 'deal with it'.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Football decision or not, this is a badly managed PR disaster. I am surprised that Goodwillie was keen to move as he must have known the headlines this would cause.

[JohnM1875]

https://www.raithrovers.net/52429/club-statement-10.htm

They’ve released a statement and, quite remarkably, made it worse. Can only assume it was Goodwillie that wrote it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is an absolute shocker.

[hibbyfraelibby]

How would he do that? While he's part of society he has to earn a living somehow. I'm unclear what sort of career would be deemed acceptable for him to have.
Scrubbing out toilets with his toothbrush in Barlinie would have been a start...

[Carheenlea]

Quite an astonishing OG from Raith, compounded by the latest Press Release to attempt to explain the rationale.

Probably couldn’t have anticipated a fall out of the consequences seen today, but they surely must have known they were entering dangerous waters with this.

[Jones28]

https://www.raithrovers.net/52429/club-statement-10.htm

They’ve released a statement and, quite remarkably, made it worse. Can only assume it was Goodwillie that wrote it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yikes, I can see why supporters are telling them to gtf

[stoneyburn hibs]

Not in the squad for them tonight.
Hopefully Rovers have had a rethink, don't know how that will work contractually though.

[Sir David Gray]

https://www.raithrovers.net/52429/club-statement-10.htm

They’ve released a statement and, quite remarkably, made it worse. Can only assume it was Goodwillie that wrote it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Incredible.

[Since452]

Never liked Raith Rovers. Had to sit in their end at the start of our cup winning run. Absolute huns.

[CropleyWasGod]

Never liked Raith Rovers. Had to sit in their end at the start of our cup winning run. Absolute huns.

Whatever else might be thrown at them this week, huns they are not.

[mayo hibee]

As statements that make really bad situations even worse go, that one has to be right up there.

"Signed for footballing reasons". Yeah, that's kind of the problem here lads.

[Scorrie]

They dropped 2 points to the bottom side tonight to an 85th minute equalizer. Nae luck

[Is It On....]

As statements that make really bad situations even worse go, that one has to be right up there.

"Signed for footballing reasons". Yeah, that's kind of the problem here lads.

4-2 vote in favour of signing him. Now appears that the 2 directors that voted against have resigned (in addition to other members of staff)

[tamig]

Never liked Raith Rovers. Had to sit in their end at the start of our cup winning run. Absolute huns.

That’s an outrageous slur. I know many Rovers fans. Hun they are not.

[Dr What If?]

That’s an outrageous slur. I know many Rovers fans. Hun they are not.
Got a mate who supports Dunfermline and utterly hates Raith. Apparently after Norrie McCathrie died after a gas leak the Raith fans were making hissing noises the next time they played. BBC never said what the attendance at their game was tonight, would like to think a fair number would have chosen to stay at home.

[kaimendhibs]

Got a mate who supports Dunfermline and utterly hates Raith. Apparently after Norrie McCathrie died after a gas leak the Raith fans were making hissing noises the next time they played. BBC never said what the attendance at their game was tonight, would like to think a fair number would have chosen to stay at home.

Think it was 1400

[hibby rae]

Think it was 1400

That would look to be approx a 200-300 drop on what they might normally expect for a game outside the top 4.

Be interesting to see future ones.

[McSwanky]

Got a mate who supports Dunfermline and utterly hates Raith. Apparently after Norrie McCathrie died after a gas leak the Raith fans were making hissing noises the next time they played. BBC never said what the attendance at their game was tonight, would like to think a fair number would have chosen to stay at home.They weren't the only ones - for some reason I was at a Dundee Utd v Dunfermline game not long after McCathie died, and some of the chants from the Utd end (which I was in) were shocking.

[Moulin Yarns]

They weren't the only ones - for some reason I was at a Dundee Utd v Dunfermline game not long after McCathie died, and some of the chants from the Utd end (which I was in) were shocking.

That's also the reason for the hate/hate relationship between dunfermline and falkirk.

[Radium]

Got a mate who supports Dunfermline and utterly hates Raith. Apparently after Norrie McCathrie died after a gas leak the Raith fans were making hissing noises the next time they played. BBC never said what the attendance at their game was tonight, would like to think a fair number would have chosen to stay at home.

1005.

Sure I heard it on the post match coverage but confirmed on RR website

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220202/b6866c905207e6c1ca6f6d99d59ea399.png


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[hibby rae]

1005.

Sure I heard it on the post match coverage but confirmed on RR website

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220202/b6866c905207e6c1ca6f6d99d59ea399.png


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That's a drop of about a 3rd then. Midweek game which might influence it. Given gate money is the biggest source of income for Scottish clubs, that's a very massive hit.

Poor poor decision for a bang average, possibly past it, player.

Looking at Pie and Bovril McGlynn has lost the fans too.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220202/2f340bbd20db040d85c17ecb63f0b46b.jpg


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Mendy will never play again. He is 27 and being charged with 7 counts of rape.

Mendy could be lucky to see the outside of a prison again. A serial rapist might be judged too serious a risk to society to ever be released. At a minimum he will be looking at a very long sentence, I would assume.

It's a difficult one. I'm all for rehabilitation and offenders being able to re-build their lives after serving their sentence, but sex crimes are difficult to forgive. Then there's the fact a professional footballer is a public figure representing a community. On the other hand, should a high profile person be denied the right to a career because of who they are?

Any club who employs such a person puts their fans in a very difficult position. Does anyone know how the Clyde fans treated him during his four years there? He scored a lot of goals; was his past quietly forgotten? The club made him captain!

[MKHIBEE]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220202/2f340bbd20db040d85c17ecb63f0b46b.jpg


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Good for them, if they were to crowdfund to help I would happily contribute

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/davie_hancock/status/1488886071626711045?s=21


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[The 90+2]

Good for them, if they were to crowdfund to help I would happily contribute


Please change their name to Roth Ravers :agree:

[lord bunberry]

Mendy could be lucky to see the outside of a prison again. A serial rapist might be judged too serious a risk to society to ever be released. At a minimum he will be looking at a very long sentence, I would assume.

It's a difficult one. I'm all for rehabilitation and offenders being able to re-build there lives after serving their sentence, but sex crimes are difficult to forgive. Then there's the fact a professional footballer is a public figure representing a community. On the other hand, should a high profile person be denied the right to a career because of who they are?

Any club who employs such a person puts their fans in a very difficult position. Does anyone know how the Clyde fans treated him during his four years there? He scored a lot of goals; was his past quietly forgotten? The club made him captain!
I’m pretty sure he’s out now. He was released on bail I think.

[JeMeSouviens]

Clyde fan George Lennox on twitter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKigzecXEAcnlkX?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKigzqCXIAAbUmh?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKigz2CWYAEiIqL?format=jpg&name=large

[silverhibee]

Wow, that is really poor decision making from Raith then. Fair play to their fans for letting them know their feelings on it.

I’m sure there was the outcry when signed for Clyde, after a bit the fans were happy to cheer him when scored goals for them.

[heid the baw]

Mendy could be lucky to see the outside of a prison again. A serial rapist might be judged too serious a risk to society to ever be released. At a minimum he will be looking at a very long sentence, I would assume.

It's a difficult one. I'm all for rehabilitation and offenders being able to re-build there lives after serving their sentence, but sex crimes are difficult to forgive. Then there's the fact a professional footballer is a public figure representing a community. On the other hand, should a high profile person be denied the right to a career because of who they are?
Mendy would be considered a serious risk and could if convicted get a long sentence and be supervised on strict conditions after release. The offenders who don't get released are usually repeat offenders who continue to re-offend after release

In the case of Goodwillie's rehabilitation, you have to remember that there are many professions, teaching, law enforcement, work with vulnerable groups ect where he we not be allowed to return if that had been his previous job. Football, entertainment business ect perhaps don't fall into that category, but the high profile nature makes rehabilitation very difficult because of publicity in the media. Like a previous poster said, if he becomes a brickie then no-one is any the wiser and he can get on with life. That is pretty much the reality of rehabilitation. Not going back to how things were, but finding a life and putting your offending behind you

[JeMeSouviens]

It's a difficult one. I'm all for rehabilitation and offenders being able to re-build their lives after serving their sentence, but sex crimes are difficult to forgive. Then there's the fact a professional footballer is a public figure representing a community. On the other hand, should a high profile person be denied the right to a career because of who they are?

Any club who employs such a person puts their fans in a very difficult position. Does anyone know how the Clyde fans treated him during his four years there? He scored a lot of goals; was his past quietly forgotten? The club made him captain!

If it were Hibs, I wouldn't be happy but I think I could just about cope if:

- he'd served an appropriate sentence
- expressed genuine remorse
- was prepared to actively be involved in community campaigns targeting violence against women

As far as I'm aware, Goodwillie has done none of that.

[K-Zazu]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

[Hibiza]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

Was thinking the same Sur.

[The 90+2]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?


She has 2 agendas kicking about with this.

[Hibiza]

Gordon Brown not going back . Iraq Mr Brown.

[Sir David Gray]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

I'm not sure what action she's wanting the authorities to take.

As much as I don't agree with Raith Rovers signing him, I don't see how there can be anything in the rules which allows the SPFL/SFA to step in and prevent them from signing him.

I do have other thoughts on this but I'm mindful that this is on the main board rather than the politics board so I'll leave it there as I don't want it to descend into a political debate.

[lord bunberry]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?
I’ve no idea why she’s getting involved and what she thinks the spfl can do about it. He’s never been convicted of an offence and as has been pointed out there’s plenty players who have been. Is Thompson still playing for Edinburgh City? I’m not a lawyer but I’d imagine Goodwillie would have a decent case to take the spfl to court. If they refused to let him play.

[Jim44]

I’ve no idea why she’s getting involved and what she thinks the spfl can do about it. He’s never been convicted of an offence and as has been pointed out there’s plenty players who have been. Is Thompson still playing for Edinburgh City? I’m not a lawyer but I’d imagine Goodwillie would have a decent case to take the spfl to court. If they refused to let him play.

Is it coincidental that Sturgeon and McDermid are pals at the berries? I’m sure I read that McDermid is a financial supporter of the SNP. Given the facts, I think Sturgeon is on a sticky wicket on this issue. Much as I have no respect for DG, I think politicians should keep out of this,

[Just Alf]

Is it coincidental that Sturgeon and McDermid are pals at the berries? I’m sure I read that McDermid is a financial supporter of the SNP. Given the facts, I think Sturgeon is on a sticky wicket on this issue. Much as I have no respect for DG, I think politicians should keep out of this,Sturgeon needs to butt out, it's not something that should be getting political intervention.

I'll except Brown, whilst a politician he's also a fan of the club and is allowed to have his voice heard in my view.

[LaMotta]

I’ve no idea why she’s getting involved and what she thinks the spfl can do about it. He’s never been convicted of an offence and as has been pointed out there’s plenty players who have been. Is Thompson still playing for Edinburgh City? I’m not a lawyer but I’d imagine Goodwillie would have a decent case to take the spfl to court. If they refused to let him play.

:agree:

The whole thing is a bit mad quite frankly, from Raith Rovers possibly thinking it would be a good idea to sign him, to all the bandwagon jumping by people who didn't give a toss about him or where he worked 2 weeks ago.


There's a wider point about the legitimacy of a civil court conviction, but that is a minefield that's probably best avoided.

[hibby rae]

:agree:

The whole thing is a bit mad quite frankly, from Raith Rovers possibly thinking it would be a good idea to sign him, to all the bandwagon jumping by people who didn't give a toss about him or where he worked 2 weeks ago.


There's a wider point about the legitimacy of a civil court conviction, but that is a minefield that's probably best avoided.

Have you done much reading about the case and the evidence offered?

[Mr Grieves]

Sturgeon needs to butt out, it's not something that should be getting political intervention.

I'll except Brown, whilst a politician he's also a fan of the club and is allowed to have his voice heard in my view.

Sturgeon has been asked about this by a journalist and she's answered. I'm not sure what the problem is.

[Radium]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

Have you got a link to the comments, can only find the references to Raith reflecting

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220202/c569da3ef67d702f66b59b18378af01a.jpg


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[Aldo]

I'm not sure what action she's wanting the authorities to take.

As much as I don't agree with Raith Rovers signing him, I don't see how there can be anything in the rules which allows the SPFL/SFA to step in and prevent them from signing him.

I do have other thoughts on this but I'm mindful that this is on the main board rather than the politics board so I'll leave it there as I don't want it to descend into a political debate.

It has nothing to do with her and I think I have the same thoughts in relation to your last paragraph!

[LaMotta]

Have you done much reading about the case and the evidence offered?

Yeah I have. I think it's impossible to know for sure either way in this case ( hence why no criminal case ). Its a sensitive issue, and as I say not for getting into here I think.

[TAHibby]

Yeah I have. I think it's impossible to know for sure either way in this case ( hence why no criminal case ). Its a sensitive issue, and as I say not for getting into here I think.

Here is the actual case in full

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=d22e28a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

[hibby rae]

Yeah I have. I think it's impossible to know for sure either way in this case ( hence why no criminal case ). Its a sensitive issue, and as I say not for getting into here I think.

Why bring it up if you don't want to get into it?

There's nothing wrong with a civil court conviction, other than the offenders deserved jail.

[LaMotta]

Why bring it up if you don't want to get into it?

There's nothing wrong with a civil court conviction, other than the offenders deserved jail.

Because it's relevant to this particular football related matter, but the actual ins and outs of that point would be better debated on The Holy Ground part of the forum rather than here. I will say I disagree with your second sentence and I'll leave it at that.

[hibby rae]

Because it's relevant to this particular football related matter, but the actual ins and outs of that point would be better debated on The Holy Ground part of the forum rather than here. I will say I disagree with your second sentence and I'll leave it at that.

The ins and outs are relevant here in the context of the conversation, which is Raith Rovers signing a rapist. A conclusion the judge arrived at, and 3 appeal judges agreed with, after hearing 20 witnesses, including forensic and medical witnesses. The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority also determined she was raped.

[silverhibee]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

She should not have got involved in this, stupid from her.

[Lendo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/barryanderson_/status/1489189796308258817?s=21

So Raith have come to their senses. The only winner here is Goodwillie ironically who’ll need to be paid out of his 2.5 year contract.

Damage is done for Raith. Loss of fans, sponsorship, trust of their female players.

Said earlier in the thread that I though McGlynn might resign over it but nope, he towed the club line and said if he’s fit he’ll play. So makes him look like a fool with this u-turn.

Shambles of a situation really.

[Pretty Boy]

I just feel sorry for the Clyde fans who will no doubt see Goodwillie pitch up at their club again sometime soon.

[MWHIBBIES]

Would be a laugh if he said no and just sat there for 2.5 years. Raith have made a massive **** of this.

[jacomo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/barryanderson_/status/1489189796308258817?s=21

So Raith have come to their senses. The only winner here is Goodwillie ironically who’ll need to be paid out of his 2.5 year contract.


What a mess. The club has a lot of rebuilding to do.

[jacomo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/barryanderson_/status/1489189796308258817?s=21

So Raith have come to their senses. The only winner here is Goodwillie ironically who’ll need to be paid out of his 2.5 year contract.

Damage is done for Raith. Loss of fans, sponsorship, trust of their female players.

Said earlier in the thread that I though McGlynn might resign over it but nope, he towed the club line and said if he’s fit he’ll play. So makes him look like a fool with this u-turn.

Shambles of a situation really.


Presumably McGlynn wanted the player. This u turn decision has been taken over his head. I suppose he might resign now if he feels his position is too compromised.

[Radium]

Raith have now stated that he will not be selected to play and they are going to negotiate with him re contract.

… also something about rebuilding trust.

Suspect it is more about the financial hole that they have opened up with sponsorships and season tickets due to be launched in the coming months


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibby rae]

What a mess. The club has a lot of rebuilding to do.

The board has shown themselves to be incapable of doing the job and the manager has lost the fans.

I think you might see a lot Raith fans staying away for a while even now

[hibby rae]

Would be a laugh if he said no and just sat there for 2.5 years. Raith have made a massive **** of this.

Wouldn't be shocked if he did. Clearly only cares about himself anyway

[hibbyfraelibby]

So Nicola Sturgeon wants the spfl to take action on the Goodwillie signing but it’s alright for him to have been playing for Clyde?

I think you'll find there was a stooshie vack then as well

[hibby rae]

I just feel sorry for the Clyde fans who will no doubt see Goodwillie pitch up at their club again sometime soon.

You would think no right-minded club, even Clyde, would go near him now.

[evy]

https://mobile.twitter.com/barryanderson_/status/1489189796308258817?s=21

So Raith have come to their senses. The only winner here is Goodwillie ironically who’ll need to be paid out of his 2.5 year contract.

Damage is done for Raith. Loss of fans, sponsorship, trust of their female players.

Said earlier in the thread that I though McGlynn might resign over it but nope, he towed the club line and said if he’s fit he’ll play. So makes him look like a fool with this u-turn.

Shambles of a situation really.

Too little too late for some fans I'd suspect, especially after their doubling down statement yesterday. I know that if it was Hibs in their position and dealt with it the way they have it'd take a lot to get me back.

[Lendo]

Presumably McGlynn wanted the player. This u turn decision has been taken over his head. I suppose he might resign now if he feels his position is too compromised.

From speaking to a Raith fan, he suggested that McGlynn wasn’t keen but the Board pushed it through. Might be nonsense.

[jacomo]

From speaking to a Raith fan, he suggested that McGlynn wasn’t keen but the Board pushed it through. Might be nonsense.


That makes their actions even more unbelievable. Relying on the ‘football reasons’ defence when your own football manager isn’t keen is a joke.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

That makes their actions even more unbelievable. Relying on the ‘football reasons’ defence when your own football manager isn’t keen is a joke.

Did McGlynn not make a statement about his recruitment being key for the push for promotion? Or was that imposed on him (suppose he could have said nothing) or was it a misquote? I found in the light of all this quite remarkable that a steady hand like McGlynn would do such a thjng

[mutley]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60244442


Raith Rovers back pedalling now

[MrSmith]

If Goodwillie had any integrity, decency or contriteness, he would cancel the contract himself.

[500miles]

If Goodwillie had any integrity, decency or contriteness, he would cancel the contract himself.

I mean he maintains his innocence, so he won't.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned having him work as an electrician than a footballer. Electricians are in your house, office, schools and hospitals.

A footballer works with grown men every day, and is only exposed to kids in front of thousands of witnesses.

[Mike Berry]

The board has shown themselves to be incapable of doing the job and the manager has lost the fans.

I think you might see a lot Raith fans staying away for a while even nowI agree. Both McGlynn and the Chairman were aware of all the facts, knew it was wrong and would be unpopular (Mcdermid, their sponsor, was consulted beforehand and told them what she thought), but they did it anyway. It's not a simple mistake, it's 2 things: firstly a serious error of judgement, and secondly (more importantly) shows that both men have outdated and unacceptable attitudes. And as Mcdermid pointed out, Goodwillie has shown no remorse. He still doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Both manager and chairman have to go. Surely?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree. Both McGlynn and the Chairman were aware of all the facts, knew it was wrong and would be unpopular (Mcdermid, their sponsor, was consulted beforehand and told them what she thought), but they did it anyway. It's not a simple mistake, it's 2 things: firstly a serious error of judgement, and secondly (more importantly) shows that both men have outdated and unacceptable attitudes. And as Mcdermid pointed out, Goodwillie has shown no remorse. He still doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Both manager and chairman have to go. Surely?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

I listened to Shaughan McGuigan's podcast last night.

He and Andy Harrow discussed the possibility of this latest scenario. They had two things to say.

1. that's not gonny happen.

2. even if it does, neither of them would trust the "decision makers" any more.

I suspect that they're not alone in that among Rovers supporters.

[Dr What If?]

Both manager and chairman have to go. Surely?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk
Agree. A club is more than a few directors and a manager but these figures are the senior custodians....they have lost their right to that position after this affair. If those responsible do the right thing then the fans will forgive and come back, the sponsors will follow and in a matter of months this will be forgotten and Raith can worry about results on the pitch.
Think it would be in Goodwillie's interests to get out of this contract as quickly and cleanly as possible too.....his name and face have been all over the press in the last few days and he can be in no doubt what society things of him. Best for him to get out and crawl under his rock where no one could see him. He could also do an even better thing, admit what he did, show remorse and throw himself to the mercy of the legal system....but I guess that would be too much to hope for.

[hibby rae]

I listened to Shaughan McGuigan's podcast last night.

He and Andy Harrow discussed the possibility of this latest scenario. They had two things to say.

1. that's not gonny happen.

2. even if it does, neither of them would trust the "decision makers" any more.

I suspect that they're not alone in that among Rovers supporters.

That podcast was brilliant (The Terrace podcast for anyone interested).

Felt very sorry for the majority of Raith supporters and all connected with the club that were disgusted by Raith's actions.

Importantly though, Andy and Shaughan were very clear that as bad as it is for the fans etc. Denise Clair is still the real victim in all of this, and once again her ordeal has been put front and centre in the public eye by the callous actions of Raith Rovers. They should be apologising to her.

[Unseen work]

To be honest, without getting in the did he or didn’t he do it, I don’t quite get this whole enquiry.

Everyone has the right to a fair trial.

The criminal courts never took it up due to insufficient evidence. It was the first ever time a rape trial was done at a civil court which requires less evidence.

He doesn’t even have a criminal conviction. Yet everyone says without a shadow of doubt that he’s guilty.

[BoomtownHibees]

I mean he maintains his innocence, so he won't.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned having him work as an electrician than a footballer. Electricians are in your house, office, schools and hospitals.

A footballer works with grown men every day, and is only exposed to kids in front of thousands of witnesses.

No sure what being in front of kids has got to do with anything

[The dalmeny]

To be honest, without getting in the did he or didn’t he do it, I don’t quite get this whole enquiry.

Everyone has the right to a fair trial.

The criminal courts never took it up due to insufficient evidence. It was the first ever time a rape trial was done at a civil court which requires less evidence.

He doesn’t even have a criminal conviction. Yet everyone says without a shadow of doubt that he’s guilty.

At least he has criminal convictions for other offences

[Unseen work]

At least he has criminal convictions for other offences

A couple of assaults?

They have zero relevance to this case.

[Oscar T Grouch]

To be honest, without getting in the did he or didn’t he do it, I don’t quite get this whole enquiry.

Everyone has the right to a fair trial.

The criminal courts never took it up due to insufficient evidence. It was the first ever time a rape trial was done at a civil court which requires less evidence.

He doesn’t even have a criminal conviction. Yet everyone says without a shadow of doubt that he’s guilty.

The only reason the criminal courts failed to prosecute was down to the need for corroboration in Scots law, this can be another witness or other similar crimes being committed, the PF/CO decide cases on their likelihood of success and without corroboration they would unlike in Scots law get a conviction. Campaigners have been trying to change this for years because it does effect a lot of rape cases because the nature of the crime, usually done alone without witnesses. The civil case required a lot of evidence and the evidence was strong and clear in this case, the two men took the woman who was paralytically drunk away from a nightclub stating they would drop her home, but instead took her to a flat in Armadale and both raped her, both admitted to having sex with her and the judge said that she was in no state (as did over a dozen witnesses) to give consent to anything, never mind sex. This is hopefully a new way of convicting sex crimes in Scotland until the corroboration requirement is removed from law.

[Lendo]

The only reason the criminal courts failed to prosecute was down to the need for corroboration in Scots law, this can be another witness or other similar crimes being committed, the PF/CO decide cases on their likelihood of success and without corroboration they would unlike in Scots law get a conviction. Campaigners have been trying to change this for years because it does effect a lot of rape cases because the nature of the crime, usually done alone without witnesses. The civil case required a lot of evidence and the evidence was strong and clear in this case, the two men took the woman who was paralytically drunk away from a nightclub stating they would drop her home, but instead took her to a flat in Armadale and both raped her, both admitted to having sex with her and the judge said that she was in no state (as did over a dozen witnesses) to give consent to anything, never mind sex. This is hopefully a new way of convicting sex crimes in Scotland until the corroboration requirement is removed from law.

His appeal was also denied by three judges following the case. So four separate judges in total have deemed him to be a rapist based on the evidence they have seen. That’s good enough for me.

[ozwoody]

To be honest, without getting in the did he or didn’t he do it, I don’t quite get this whole enquiry.

Everyone has the right to a fair trial.

The criminal courts never took it up due to insufficient evidence. It was the first ever time a rape trial was done at a civil court which requires less evidence.

He doesn’t even have a criminal conviction. Yet everyone says without a shadow of doubt that he’s guilty.

How much evidence is needed ? A video? He has a civil conviction.
There was cctv, there was eye witness in terms of cab driver. there was her evidence. Now , with all that , assuming you have female relatives,and this happened to them, would you say " you are wrong, he wasn't convicted, so I believe him over you" " I know you got £100,000, but it's not a "conviction " so hes innocent ".... seriously mate, go to bathroom, walk to mirror and have a good look at yourself

[Unseen work]

How much evidence is needed ? A video? He has a civil conviction.
There was cctv, there was eye witness in terms of cab driver. there was her evidence. Now , with all that , assuming you have female relatives,and this happened to them, would you say " you are wrong, he wasn't convicted, so I believe him over you" " I know you got £100,000, but it's not a "conviction " so hes innocent ".... seriously mate, go to bathroom, walk to mirror and have a good look at yourself

Never once did I say anything about money, her being wrong or him being innocent - that’s you saying that.

I’m saying I don’t get the enquiry and the course it has taken due to what I explained. If there was a sufficiency of evidence like you suggest surely it would go to trial? Plenty cases for to Criminal court with less evidence than alleged in this case.

If there is enough like you’re suggesting then surely it should go to court?

See next time you reply to a post, have an actually read and understand it instead of jumping down someone’s throat

If they should/could have took it to court based on sufficient evidence they have it should have been taken for court for conviction so he can get his appropriate sentence.

[Skol]

I find myself horribly conflicted here.

It seems pretty clear DG committed a horrible crime for which he shows no remorse. However the criminal trial did not proceed and so he has no conviction

Are we now essentially saying DG can never work again. If he gets a job on the checkout at Tesco, do all sponsors/shoppers boycott and he cannot work there

How far does this go.

On the one hand I dont understand why Raith signed him, but on the other hand I can see why they did think it may be OK


Its a real mess, albeit a mess of Goodwillie's own making

[evy]

Never once did I say anything about money, her being wrong or him being innocent - that’s you saying that.

I’m saying I don’t get the enquiry and the course it has taken due to what I explained. If there was a sufficiency of evidence like you suggest surely it would go to trial? Plenty cases for to Criminal court with less evidence than alleged in this case.

If there is enough like you’re suggesting then surely it should go to court?

See next time you reply to a post, have an actually read and understand it instead of jumping down someone’s throat

If they should/could have took it to court based on sufficient evidence they have it should have been taken for court for conviction so he can get his appropriate sentence.

You don't get the fuss because of a lack of a criminal conviction, I presume. This hasn't been possible due to the complexity of Scots Law and requirement for corroboration (as has been explained in other posts).

4 judges in a civil court (granted, lower burden of proof required) have deemed him a rapist, therefore he's a rapist.

[Skol]

Drugs dealing etc - nasty stuff but people can be rehabilitated

[jacomo]

Never once did I say anything about money, her being wrong or him being innocent - that’s you saying that.

I’m saying I don’t get the enquiry and the course it has taken due to what I explained. If there was a sufficiency of evidence like you suggest surely it would go to trial? Plenty cases for to Criminal court with less evidence than alleged in this case.

If there is enough like you’re suggesting then surely it should go to court?

See next time you reply to a post, have an actually read and understand it instead of jumping down someone’s throat

If they should/could have took it to court based on sufficient evidence they have it should have been taken for court for conviction so he can get his appropriate sentence.


The reason it didn’t go to criminal trial has literally been explained to you above.

A civil court found against him. That’s not the same burden of proof but it says it is likely he did it. His reaction to that has been unedifying.

Hence the reaction from folk to having him associated with their club.

[evy]

I find myself horribly conflicted here.

It seems pretty clear DG committed a horrible crime for which he shows no remorse. However the criminal trial did not proceed and so he has no conviction

Are we now essentially saying DG can never work again. If he gets a job on the checkout at Tesco, do all sponsors/shoppers boycott and he cannot work there

How far does this go.

On the one hand I dont understand why Raith signed him, but on the other hand I can see why they did think it may be OK


Its a real mess, albeit a mess of Goodwillie's own making

No one is saying he can't work again. People are saying he shouldn't be allowed to be a professional football, a career in which those in teams are heroes and role models for young people.

If he was to work in Tesco, it'd be an individuals choice to boycott them, as it has been in the case of people deciding to boycott Raith. Pretty simple really.

[Mike Berry]

Can someone remind me what Livingston manager was convicted of

Sent from my SM-A908B using TapatalkDrug dealing, wasn't it? Served his time, acknowledged what he did, regrets it, is rehabilitated. Personally I can't stand Martindale, but his situation isn't equivalent or cimparable to Goodwillie's.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Unseen work]

You don't get the fuss because of a lack of a criminal conviction, I presume. This hasn't been possible due to the complexity of Scots Law and requirement for corroboration (as has been explained in other posts).

4 judges in a civil court (granted, lower burden of proof required) have deemed him a rapist, therefore he's a rapist.

Again, not once did I say I don’t get the “fuss”.

I said I don’t quite get this enquiry. That means from the moment it was reported until the moment it was deemed he was a rapist at a civil court.

Well aware of the need for corroboration and what can be classed as corroboration.

If people on here could stop assuming and actually read a post it would make a huge difference.

[evy]

Again, not once did I say I don’t get the “fuss”.

I said I don’t quite get this enquiry. That means from the moment it was reported until the moment it was deemed he was a rapist at a civil court.

Well aware of the need for corroboration and what can be classed as corroboration.

If people on here could stop assuming and actually read a post it would make a huge difference.

If you get the need for corroboration, why can't you understand this enquiry? The second can't be true if you understand the first.

[Unseen work]

The reason it didn’t go to criminal trial has literally been explained to you above.

A civil court found against him. That’s not the same burden of proof but it says it is likely he did it. His reaction to that has been unedifying.

Hence the reaction from folk to having him associated with their club.

Yes I’m well aware.

In this country we need to prove it beyond all reasonable doubt for criminal court.

Jesus Christ I’ve said I don’t quite get the course of the enquiry not that he is in innocent.

[lord bunberry]

The reason it didn’t go to criminal trial has literally been explained to you above.

A civil court found against him. That’s not the same burden of proof but it says it is likely he did it. His reaction to that has been unedifying.

Hence the reaction from folk to having him associated with their club.
I get what you are saying and obviously I’m no lawyer, but from what I’ve read in the past few days I’m astonished it didn’t go to court. Maybe the pressure should be put on the police to have another look at the case.

[May21/05/216]

Drug dealing, wasn't it? Served his time, acknowledged what he did, regrets it, is rehabilitated. Personally I can't stand Martindale, but his situation isn't equivalent or cimparable to Goodwillie's.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using TapatalkCheers for that I just didn't know what he was convicted of I'm glad he's rehabilitated I just think the raith rovers board got the signing wrong on every level

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

[Unseen work]

If you get the need for corroboration, why can't you understand this enquiry? The second can't be true if you understand the first.

People are implying there is a lot of evidence and for someone even to consider him to be innocent to be ridiculous - again I’m not saying he’s innocent.

I’ve seen trials proceed to court with very little evidence before. Goodwillie has said he had sex with the girl, semen found within her, she had injuries to her genitals and witnesses are saying she was drunk so why didn’t this go to court?
To me that is quite a bit of evidence to proceed.

Why was it the first ever time it was taken up at civil court instead?

Do all enquiries reported now go to the civil court that aren’t deemed appropriate for criminal court.

Will this happen alot more in rape cases? Even murders?

Where people are found guilty of serious crimes but face no punishment.

Crimes of this magnitude should be dealt with properly so those found responsible or guilty can have the appropriate punishment.

This is what I’m not quite getting.

[Unseen work]

I get what you are saying and obviously I’m no lawyer, but from what I’ve read in the past few days I’m astonished it didn’t go to court. Maybe the pressure should be put on the police to have another look at the case.

This is the thing, the police charged him with it and it was reported to the court who decided there was insufficient evidence.

I’ve never heard the like of it especially when like you say the evidence seems to suggest he’s guilty and at very least it’s enough to take to trial.

[Gordy M]

People are implying there is a lot of evidence and for someone even to consider him to be innocent to be ridiculous - again I’m not saying he’s innocent.

I’ve seen trials proceed to court with very little evidence before. Goodwillie has said he had sex with the girl, semen found within her, she had injuries to her genitals and witnesses are saying she was drunk so why didn’t this go to court?
To me that is quite a bit of evidence to proceed.

Why was it the first ever time it was taken up at civil court instead?

Do all enquiries reported now go to the civil court that aren’t deemed appropriate for criminal court.

Will this happen alot more in rape cases? Even murders?

Where people are found guilty of serious crimes but face no punishment.

Crimes of this magnitude should be dealt with properly so those found responsible or guilty can have the appropriate punishment.

This is what I’m not quite getting.

My understanding is that the girl said she couldnt remember if she gave consent or not. So, it then comes down to whether she was able to give consent as she had obvs been drinking. Then the issue becomes what defines drunk? And can someone who had a drink give consent. Its a bit of a minefield.

[500miles]

No sure what being in front of kids has got to do with anything

I was thinking in terms of his Discloure Scotland stuff and in the respect of being around vulnerable groups.

[lord bunberry]

This is the thing, the police charged him with it and it was reported to the court who decided there was insufficient evidence.

I’ve never heard the like of it especially when like you say the evidence seems to suggest he’s guilty and at very least it’s enough to take to trial.
I suspect that if it happened today it would go to trial. I don’t like the civil court judgment as it doesn’t give him a criminal record and it only says he’s probably a rapist when he quite clearly is. I was extremely ignorant of this case other than I knew he hadn’t been found guilty in a court, but when you look at the evidence he should’ve gone to court and then jail. His attitude since then has only made things worse.

[CockneyRebel]

If you get the need for corroboration, why can't you understand this enquiry? The second can't be true if you understand the first.

With the amount and level of overwhelming evidence given in the civil case, which resulted in a loss for the defendants, could this case not now be looked at again by the prosecution services?

[Unseen work]

My understanding is that the girl said she couldnt remember if she gave consent or not. So, it then comes down to whether she was able to give consent as she had obvs been drinking. Then the issue becomes what defines drunk? And can someone who had a drink give consent. Its a bit of a minefield.

It can be difficult but from what I’ve read I think she said she can’t remember having sex at all and never knew for definite she did until it was confirmed when she was examined and found his DNA.

That coupled with the witnesses account of her etc surely makes it at the very least with going to court you’d imagine as numerous people have been convicted due to the victim being unable to give consent due to intoxication.

[Tommy75]

Mendy would be considered a serious risk and could if convicted get a long sentence and be supervised on strict conditions after release. The offenders who don't get released are usually repeat offenders who continue to re-offend after release

In the case of Goodwillie's rehabilitation, you have to remember that there are many professions, teaching, law enforcement, work with vulnerable groups ect where he we not be allowed to return if that had been his previous job. Football, entertainment business ect perhaps don't fall into that category, but the high profile nature makes rehabilitation very difficult because of publicity in the media. Like a previous poster said, if he becomes a brickie then no-one is any the wiser and he can get on with life. That is pretty much the reality of rehabilitation. Not going back to how things were, but finding a life and putting your offending behind you

Probably a different debate but if he became a brickie (or got a 'normal'day job) then all it would take is for the media to find out where he was working and the pressure would be on to sack him or not to do business with the company. On a similar note, if he didn't work and claimed benefits there would no doubt be a media angle of 'tax payers pay rapists benefits'

I don't have any sympathy for Goodwillie btw.

[Gordy M]

It can be difficult but from what I’ve read I think she said she can’t remember having sex at all and never knew for definite she did until it was confirmed when she was examined and found his DNA.

That coupled with the witnesses account of her etc surely makes it at the very least with going to court you’d imagine as numerous people have been convicted due to the victim being unable to give consent due to intoxication.

I dont disagree, all im saying is that they mustve decided that with her saying she couldnt remember then you are possibly convicting someone based on the evidence that someone cant remember. Thats all i can think off. With regards to others talking about the state of intoxication, thats a difficult one. Unless soneone is physically unable to walk etc, how drunk is someone? What i think, you may differ?

[Unseen work]

I dont disagree, all im saying is that they mustve decided that with her saying she couldnt remember then you are possibly convicting someone based on the evidence that someone cant remember. Thats all i can think off. With regards to others talking about the state of intoxication, thats a difficult one. Unless soneone is physically unable to walk etc, how drunk is someone? What i think, you may differ?

100% agree. Like you say then if she can’t remember if she did or didn’t consent then how does that add up to him being found guilty at civil court? Just then on the balance of probability?

Huge and very serious charge if it’s on that.

[JeMeSouviens]

People are implying there is a lot of evidence and for someone even to consider him to be innocent to be ridiculous - again I’m not saying he’s innocent.

I’ve seen trials proceed to court with very little evidence before. Goodwillie has said he had sex with the girl, semen found within her, she had injuries to her genitals and witnesses are saying she was drunk so why didn’t this go to court?
To me that is quite a bit of evidence to proceed.

Why was it the first ever time it was taken up at civil court instead?

Do all enquiries reported now go to the civil court that aren’t deemed appropriate for criminal court.

Will this happen alot more in rape cases? Even murders?

Where people are found guilty of serious crimes but face no punishment.

Crimes of this magnitude should be dealt with properly so those found responsible or guilty can have the appropriate punishment.

This is what I’m not quite getting.

It went to civil court because the victim, Denise Clair, refused to give up. Including taking the police to court to get to see their evidence and rejecting a 6 figure sum to settle out of court.

[Ozyhibby]

I find myself horribly conflicted here.

It seems pretty clear DG committed a horrible crime for which he shows no remorse. However the criminal trial did not proceed and so he has no conviction

Are we now essentially saying DG can never work again. If he gets a job on the checkout at Tesco, do all sponsors/shoppers boycott and he cannot work there

How far does this go.

On the one hand I dont understand why Raith signed him, but on the other hand I can see why they did think it may be OK


Its a real mess, albeit a mess of Goodwillie's own making

Committing just about any crime can affect your employment prospects long after any sentence is served or fine paid. He has to accept that as part of his rehabilitation. There are plenty jobs he can do though and it’s probably best he gets on with getting one of those jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

100% agree. Like you say then if she can’t remember if she did or didn’t consent then how does that add up to him being found guilty at civil court? Just then on the balance of probability?

Huge and very serious charge if it’s on that.

You can't consent to sex if you are drunk. There was plenty evidence that she was drunk.

[Unseen work]

You can't consent to sex if you are drunk. There was plenty evidence that she was drunk.

Yes you can.

If that was the case then there would be 1000’s of rapes every weekend.

If they’re too drunk to give consent then that is a different story and is rape.

[LaMotta]

You can't consent to sex if you are drunk. There was plenty evidence that she was drunk.

That's not true in the slightest. Drunk consensual sex happens up and down the country every weekend.

Also just because someone doesnt remember an event through drink, that does not neccesarily mean that they were unable to give consent at the time.

[evy]

People are implying there is a lot of evidence and for someone even to consider him to be innocent to be ridiculous - again I’m not saying he’s innocent.

I’ve seen trials proceed to court with very little evidence before. Goodwillie has said he had sex with the girl, semen found within her, she had injuries to her genitals and witnesses are saying she was drunk so why didn’t this go to court?
To me that is quite a bit of evidence to proceed.

Why was it the first ever time it was taken up at civil court instead?

Do all enquiries reported now go to the civil court that aren’t deemed appropriate for criminal court.

Will this happen alot more in rape cases? Even murders?

Where people are found guilty of serious crimes but face no punishment.

Crimes of this magnitude should be dealt with properly so those found responsible or guilty can have the appropriate punishment.

This is what I’m not quite getting.

Whether something goes to Civil Court is entirely up to the pursuant, the PF wouldn't make that decision, that would have been the girl and her lawyer.

Theoretically I guess it still could go to court as double jeopardy rules wouldn't apply since it didn't go to court last time?

[Squealing pig]

That podcast was brilliant (The Terrace podcast for anyone interested).

Felt very sorry for the majority of Raith supporters and all connected with the club that were disgusted by Raith's actions.

Importantly though, Andy and Shaughan were very clear that as bad as it is for the fans etc. Denise Clair is still the real victim in all of this, and once again her ordeal has been put front and centre in the public eye by the callous actions of Raith Rovers. They should be apologising to her.

Where’s the podcast couldn’t find it ? And which platform

[CropleyWasGod]

Where’s the podcast couldn’t find it ? And which platform

It's on Spotify. From the Terrace.

[Squealing pig]

It's on Spotify. From the Terrace.

Got it thanks

[chrisski33]

Yes you can.

If that was the case then there would be 1000’s of rapes every weekend.

If they’re too drunk to give consent then that is a different story and is rape.

she had levels of alcohol in her that made her incapable of being able to walk and was nearly at a stage where she could have been hospitalised. so pretty much was unable to give consent. Guys should know if a woman is too drunk tbh

[BroxburnHibee]

I don't get why all this has kicked off now when he's been with Clyde for years.

[Steven79]

she had levels of alcohol in her that made her incapable of being able to walk and was nearly at a stage where she could have been hospitalised. so pretty much was unable to give consent. Guys should know if a woman is too drunk tbh

In that case their argument would probably be that they were that drunk as well...

[Steven79]

I don't get why all this has kicked off now when he's been with Clyde for years.

I don't either.

Surely being made Captain of Clyde and a role model for their fans should have been enough to get the media's attention.

[evy]

I don't get why all this has kicked off now when he's been with Clyde for years.

There were Clyde fans who objected too, it's not a new thing. They're just in the unfortunate position that they don't have prominent supporters in the public eye to highlight it.

[hibby rae]

Yes you can.

If that was the case then there would be 1000’s of rapes every weekend.

If they’re too drunk to give consent then that is a different story and is rape.

Sadly that is most probably the case. Rape Crisis England and Wales state 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16.

Channel 4 News did a fact check article this week, on the Raab accusation towards Starmer's rape conviction rates, it stated that only 1.5% of rapes reported to police in 20/21 in England and Wales resulted in a charge. The vast majority never make it to court.

One big reason it has been suggested why the case in question, and many many others, never went to court was because prosecutors won't touch the case unless they are 100% certain they'll win, as they don't want losses on their record.

This, along with the rules of Scots Law stated before, answers the question of why it never went to a criminal court then.

[hibby rae]

In that case their argument would probably be that they were that drunk as well...

I can't imagine there are many crimes where that argument would be a valid defence.

[He's here!]

I don't either.

Surely being made Captain of Clyde and a role model for their fans should have been enough to get the media's attention.

Yes I recall there being anger when Clyde signed him but the current furore around a rapist playing professional football doesn't entirely stack up when he's already been doing so for five years.

[He's here!]

People are implying there is a lot of evidence and for someone even to consider him to be innocent to be ridiculous - again I’m not saying he’s innocent.

I’ve seen trials proceed to court with very little evidence before. Goodwillie has said he had sex with the girl, semen found within her, she had injuries to her genitals and witnesses are saying she was drunk so why didn’t this go to court?
To me that is quite a bit of evidence to proceed.

Why was it the first ever time it was taken up at civil court instead?

Do all enquiries reported now go to the civil court that aren’t deemed appropriate for criminal court.

Will this happen alot more in rape cases? Even murders?

Where people are found guilty of serious crimes but face no punishment.

Crimes of this magnitude should be dealt with properly so those found responsible or guilty can have the appropriate punishment.

This is what I’m not quite getting.

As far as I'm aware this is is the only civil rape case to have occurred in Scotland.

[RyeSloan]

As far as I'm aware this is is the only civil rape case to have occurred in Scotland.

I’m not too clued up on why that would be the case but it does seem like a type of crime that shouldn’t have a ‘on the balance of probabilities’ stuck before it.

On the balance of probabilities he’s a rapist because it was decided that it was unlikely that it could be proven he was beyond reasonable doubt.

Either way Raith totally messed up here and I’m surprised that they were surprised, him having spent 5 years at Clyde or not.

The Chairman should have resigned at the same time as his statement today and allowed someone in that could help to repair the damage he has done to the club and it’s reputation.

[JeMeSouviens]

I’m not too clued up on why that would be the case but it does seem like a type of crime that shouldn’t have a ‘on the balance of probabilities’ stuck before it.

On the balance of probabilities he’s a rapist because it was decided that it was unlikely that it could be proven he was beyond reasonable doubt.

Either way Raith totally messed up here and I’m surprised that they were surprised, him having spent 5 years at Clyde or not.

The Chairman should have resigned at the same time as his statement today and allowed someone in that could help to repair the damage he has done to the club and it’s reputation.

Criminal cases are brought by the crown, civil cases are brought by the pursuer. Not an easy or cheap thing to do.

The criminal investigation and civil case are 2 entirely separate things. The crown prosecutors (controversially by all accounts) decided there wasn't enough evidence to proceed to a criminal trial.

The victim decided not to let it rest there and brought her own civil action for damages.

[MWHIBBIES]

Yes I recall there being anger when Clyde signed him but the current furore around a rapist playing professional football doesn't entirely stack up when he's already been doing so for five years.

He hasn't been playing professional football for 5 years. Hes been training as a spark, while playing part time. I know what you mean, though. I think the reason its more in the spotlight now is he could be a decent 6 months away from being a rapist in the top flight of Scottish football. Naturally draws more attention.

[green day]

I’m not too clued up on why that would be the case but it does seem like a type of crime that shouldn’t have a ‘on the balance of probabilities’ stuck before it.

On the balance of probabilities he’s a rapist because it was decided that it was unlikely that it could be proven he was beyond reasonable doubt.

A criminal rape case is very difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt due to the corroboration requirement mentioned above.

There are loads of sexual assaults and rape cases that dont get to the charging stage, never mind a court case or a conviction - anecdotally, the majority.

Lots of reasons for this - lack of awareness among victims, shame, time lapsed, hopeless police investigation, crap PF etc.

Lets not pretend that no criminal conviction means "they didnt really do it"

One thing is 100% true - If someone is absolutely blootered, they can not give consent.

That is an absolute fact, and is why this pair were convicted in civil court.

Frankly, I would say that it took a huge amount of balls from the victim to waive her right not to be named, to bring a case against two high profile public figures, to discuss such intimate and personal details, and to win (not only the case, but the appeal).

[CropleyWasGod]

That's not true in the slightest. Drunk consensual sex happens up and down the country every weekend.

Also just because someone doesnt remember an event through drink, that does not neccesarily mean that they were unable to give consent at the time.

You're correct in a legal sense, but it's a sensible stance to take, both morally and from a protective point of view.

[JeMeSouviens]

He hasn't been playing professional football for 5 years. Hes been training as a spark, while playing part time. I know what you mean, though. I think the reason its more in the spotlight now is he could be a decent 6 months away from being a rapist in the top flight of Scottish football. Naturally draws more attention.

That, and Val McDermid has a massive public platform.

[LaMotta]

she had levels of alcohol in her that made her incapable of being able to walk and was nearly at a stage where she could have been hospitalised. so pretty much was unable to give consent. Guys should know if a woman is too drunk tbh

She wasn't incapable of walking though . She was able to walk on her own. She was clearly very drunk and therewith comes the argument over whether someone is too drunk to give consent. And its not just about that though its about whether the other person has reasonable belief that they are consenting.

She said she couldn't remember anything, she wouldn't normally have slept with 2 people at the same time and therefore she couldn't have consented as its not something she would normally do. Expert medical witnesesses confirmed though that people can give off the impression of consent even if they were drunk and not able to remember things. Drink can make people do things they wouldn't normally do. At the same time she had high levels of alcohol consistent with someone who may not have been capable of giving consent.

I'm not saying Goodwillie is innoncent I'm saying there is a possibility he could have had reason to believe she was consenting ( there is some testimony that states that might have been possible). No-one who wasn't there can know for sure though, which is why criminal proceedings were dropped. The judge ruled that on the face of it Goodwillie probably didnt have reason to believe she consented ( and there is plenty of testimony to suggest that could have been the case). He may very well be right on that - it has to be accepted though he could have been wrong too, even if it's a slim chance.

[green day]

That's not true in the slightest. Drunk consensual sex happens up and down the country every weekend.

Also just because someone doesnt remember an event through drink, that does not neccesarily mean that they were unable to give consent at the time.

You are not wrong, thats why proving it is so difficult and why so few sexual assaults turn into actual convictions............but if a person ****s someone else who is incoherently drunk then said person needs to reassess their behaviour - at best.

https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/campaigns/2021/get-consent/what-is-consent-know-the-facts/


You're correct in a legal sense, but it's a sensible stance to take, both morally and from a protective point of view.

It is also now taught in high schools - lack of consent = rape.

[LaMotta]

You're correct in a legal sense, but it's a sensible stance to take, both morally and from a protective point of view.

All drunk people can't consent? That blanket statement is not a sensible stance at all. Have you never had drunken sex with someone else whereby you've both been drunk?

[LaMotta]

You are not wrong, thats why proving it is so difficult and why so few sexual assaults turn into actual convictions............but if a person ****s someone else who is incoherently drunk then said person needs to reassess their behaviour - at best.

https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/campaigns/2021/get-consent/what-is-consent-know-the-facts/



It is also now taught in high schools - lack of consent = rape.

On your first point totally agree.

Regarding teaching in schools lack of consent = rape, yes of course. But again a reminder that being drunk does not neccesarily consitute lack of consent.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Yes you can.

If that was the case then there would be 1000’s of rapes every weekend.

If they’re too drunk to give consent then that is a different story and is rape.

In this single post you have demonstrated why we have such a problem with the criminal justice sysyem, sex crimes and men who just don't get it.

[green day]

On your first point totally agree.

Regarding teaching in schools lack of consent = rape, yes of course. But again a reminder that being drunk does not neccesarily consitute lack of consent.

I dont think we are disagreeing.

My wife and I first "got together" when we were bevvied.........but we did actually discuss if it was a good idea or not to go back to hers (partly on the basis that we were then working together and knew a lot of the same people).

If she couldnt string a sentence together or her eyes had been rolling about in the back of her head then I would have just dropped her in a taxi and gone home.

Its about doing the right thing, ultimately.

[hibbyfraelibby]

In that case their argument would probably be that they were that drunk as well...

...but not so drunk they couldn't "get it up" and deposit evidence though.

[LaMotta]

Sadly that is most probably the case. Rape Crisis England and Wales state 20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16.

Channel 4 News did a fact check article this week, on the Raab accusation towards Starmer's rape conviction rates, it stated that only 1.5% of rapes reported to police in 20/21 in England and Wales resulted in a charge. The vast majority never make it to court.

One big reason it has been suggested why the case in question, and many many others, never went to court was because prosecutors won't touch the case unless they are 100% certain they'll win, as they don't want losses on their record.

This, along with the rules of Scots Law stated before, answers the question of why it never went to a criminal court then.

The stats are shocking.:agree:

Prosecutors not touching a case because they are not 100% sure they will win though is because they do not have evidence to prove guilt beyond doubt.

This is terrible for cases where rapes have taken place, but the alternative can see innocent people being convicted. Awful situtation of one persons word against another.

[LaMotta]

In this single post you have demonstrated why we have such a problem with the criminal justice sysyem, sex crimes and men who just don't get it.

Struggling to understand how you've possibly come to that conclusion from Unseen Work's post which was fair and accurate.

[Since90+2]

I'd imagine it's an incredible difficult crime to prosecute. I would think in the majority of cases it is only the accuser and the accused in the room when the rape allegedly takes place. It's essentially one persons word against another.

I have no idea what the answer is. And neither do our policitians or senior legal bigwigs when you look at conviction rates.

[LaMotta]

I dont think we are disagreeing.

My wife and I first "got together" when we were bevvied.........but we did actually discuss if it was a good idea or not to go back to hers (partly on the basis that we were then working together and knew a lot of the same people).

If she couldnt string a sentence together or her eyes had been rolling about in the back of her head then I would have just dropped her in a taxi and gone home.

Its about doing the right thing, ultimately.

:agree:

[hibbyfraelibby]

Struggling to understand how you've possibly come to that conclusion from Unseen Work's post which was fair and accurate.

...and the fact you posted this confirms he is not alone in not getting it and the problem is widespread..

[Since90+2]

...and the fact you posted this confirms he is not alone in not getting it and the problem is widespread..

Got to say I'm with the other 2 posters. The post didn't come across as anything outrageous.

[Moulin Yarns]

Raith Rovers ladies team is now called McDermid Ladies :thumbsup: Nicknamed Val's Gals



To add to the debate on the offence he committed from the BBC


Both men accepted they had sex with her, but maintained it was consensual.



The judge in the civil case ruled that both had raped her, saying she had been "incapable of giving meaningful consent", and ordered them to pay her £100,000 in damages.



Goodwillie left Plymouth Argyle by mutual consent following the ruling, and later signed for Clyde - then competing in Scotland's League Two.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Got to say I'm with the other 2 posters. The post didn't come across as anything outrageous.

...and as I implied the fact you didn't see anything to be outraged about reinforces the fact that men, particularly those of a certain demographic just dont get it.

[Since90+2]

...and as I implied the fact you didn't see anything to be outraged about reinforces the fact that men, particularly those of a certain demographic just dont get it.

If we are referencing the same post then the poster simply said drunk sex takes place up and down the country day in day out. Unless I'm missing something I can't see what they have said there that is incorrect.

[flash]

This threads going well.

[ACLeith]

How much evidence is needed ? A video? He has a civil conviction.
There was cctv, there was eye witness in terms of cab driver. there was her evidence. Now , with all that , assuming you have female relatives,and this happened to them, would you say " you are wrong, he wasn't convicted, so I believe him over you" " I know you got £100,000, but it's not a "conviction " so hes innocent ".... seriously mate, go to bathroom, walk to mirror and have a good look at yourself

A small point of clarification. She was awarded £100,000, I don't know if Robertson, who I think retired from pro football as a result of the case, ever paid her the £50K he was due. but Goodwillie declared himself bankrupt and to this day has never paid her a single penny.

[ScottB]

https://twitter.com/grahamspiers/status/1489218095633682439?s=21

‘Won’t somebody think of the rapists?’ Is quite the take.

[LaMotta]

...and the fact you posted this confirms he is not alone in not getting it and the problem is widespread..


...and as I implied the fact you didn't see anything to be outraged about reinforces the fact that men, particularly those of a certain demographic just dont get it.

You are really going to have to explain yourself here. There is nothing outrageous in his post.:confused:

[ancient hibee]

I was on the jury for a rape case. Don’t know what was worse- what we heard in court or the attitudes of some of the jury .

[hibsbollah]

If we are referencing the same post then the poster simply said drunk sex takes place up and down the country day in day out. Unless I'm missing something I can't see what they have said there that is incorrect.

It’s a post which is slightly lacking in empathy for the victim of an appalling crime. I think focusing on the legal complexities of the case is a bit odd to be honest. It’s a moral not a legal question. That’s why there has been an outcry.

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/grahamspiers/status/1489218095633682439?s=21

‘won’t somebody think of the rapists?’ is quite the take.

ffs.

[LaMotta]

It’s a post which is slightly lacking in empathy for the victim of an appalling crime. I think focusing on the legal complexities of the case is a bit odd to be honest. It’s a moral not a legal question. That’s why there has been an outcry.

I dont think its lacking any empathy for any victim. It was just correcting a previous poster's inaccurate statement.

[Pretty Boy]

If we are referencing the same post then the poster simply said drunk sex takes place up and down the country day in day out. Unless I'm missing something I can't see what they have said there that is incorrect.

The issue isn't around 'drunk sex'. The key point is the legal, and indeed moral, definiteion of meaningful consent.

I daresay we have all lowered our inhibitions at some point after drinking and may have engaged in sexual behaviours we otherwise may not have. Certainly thinking back to being younger I can acknowledge risky behaviour and decision making that may not have been the same had I been sober. It's highly unlikely a court is going to prosecute anyone for consensual sex between 2 drunk adults even if there is an element of regret the next day.

Meaningful consent, which was the key issue in the Goodwillie case, and countless other rape cases is a far bigger issue. A nod of the head or failing to openly say no when as incapacitated as several witnesses stated Godwillie and Roberton's victim was is not meaningful consent. Indeed even agreeing to sex when in such a bad way does not necessarily constitute meaningful consent in a legal sense.

Leaving aside the legality there is also a morality issue to consider. Identifying and targeting a seriously drunk woman, separating her from a group and initiating sex with her is predatory behaviour by any measure. It's way beyond 'drunk sex' and drawing any kind of comparison between the 2 goes some way to legitimising the behaviour of 2 rapists. I'm sure that wasn't the intention of anyone but it really is comparing oranges with apples.

[Unseen work]

It’s a post which is slightly lacking in empathy for the victim of an appalling crime. I think focusing on the legal complexities of the case is a bit odd to be honest. It’s a moral not a legal question. That’s why there has been an outcry.

Please don’t try to say I’m of a certain demographic, that I lack empathy and that I’m part of the problem for rapes.

I said not every drunk sexual encounter is rape in relation to a posters inaccurate post.

[hibbyfraelibby]

Please don’t try to say I’m of a certain demographic, that I lack empathy and that I’m part of the problem for rapes.

I said not every drunk sexual encounter is rape in relation to a posters inaccurate post.

Your last sentence confirms my contention.

[hibsbollah]

Please don’t try to say I’m of a certain demographic, that I lack empathy and that I’m part of the problem for rapes.

I said not every drunk sexual encounter is rape in relation to a posters inaccurate post.

I never said anything about your demographics or that you are part of the problem for rapes, are you confusing me with someone else? I’m not even sure what you mean. I think the broader thread is lacking empathy. Pretty boy is correct to emphasize the predatory nature of Robertson’s and Goodwillies behaviour. The rest of the thread seems to be focusing on ‘drunk sex’. There’s some tropes there, fairly obvious ones that have been around for a long time and are very problematic, and I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that.

[Unseen work]

I never said anything about your demographics or that you are part of the problem for rapes, are you confusing me with someone else? I’m not even sure what you mean. I think the broader thread is lacking empathy. Pretty boy is correct to emphasize the predatory nature of Robertson’s and Goodwillies behaviour. The rest of the thread seems to be focusing on ‘drunk sex’. There’s some tropes there, fairly obvious ones that have been around for a long time and are very problematic, and I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that.

Apologies mate, quoted the wrong post!

[LaMotta]

Your last sentence confirms my contention.

It really doesn't. You haven't made a coherent point yet, just thrown out a number of bizaare accusations.

[hibsbollah]

Apologies mate, quoted the wrong post!

No worries :aok: Obviously a subject that generates a bit of heat. As a father of teenage girls I’m maybe a bit more sensitive than most. A subject to be treated carefully.

[Unseen work]

Your last sentence confirms my contention.

Husband and wife to out for drinks together and later have sex. You think that’s rape?

[hibbyfraelibby]

You are really going to have to explain yourself here. There is nothing outrageous in his post.:confused:

Go back and re-read

"If that was the case then there would be 1000’s of rapes every weekend."

Yes there could be and there are undoubtedly a huge number every week, not just the weekend. Women in the main, and even more amongst men are afraid to report it, are made to feel shamed and don't report it. The victims don't come forward because the justice system does not adequately support them, and dismissive social attitudes which buries heads in the sand rather than face the problem head on compounds the iniquety.