Knighted

[Berwickhibby]

FFS Tony Blair is to be Knighted…. He should be in court being tried for war crimes

[Bostonhibby]

Interesting one, dont agree with it all, I'd abolish the entire system, but this was their majesty's choice alone.

She obviously saw something in Blair that she hasn't seen in some other PM's?

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[Ozyhibby]

Interesting one, dont agree with it all, I'd abolish the entire system, but this was their majesty's choice alone.

She obviously saw something in Blair that she hasn't seen in some other PM's?

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Think it’s the opposite. Normally all ex PM’s are honoured but she hates Blair for making her look bad when Diana died. Because she hadn’t honoured Blair, she couldn’t honour Brown, Cameron and May and there has been a bit of pressure to do so. They will likely all get the same at her birthday.


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[Bostonhibby]

Think it’s the opposite. Normally all ex PM’s are honoured but she hates Blair for making her look bad when Diana died. Because she hadn’t honoured Blair, she couldn’t honour Brown, Cameron and May and there has been a bit of pressure to do so. They will likely all get the same at her birthday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[emoji106] I took it that she maybe had a reason not to "honour" the others-apart from the obvious!

Ah well so another purely symbolic piece of archaic nonsense, the prospect of Bozo being knighted is as good a reason as any for the whole pack of cards to come tumbling down

Vive la republique........

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[Colr]

FFS Tony Blair is to be Knighted…. He should be in court being tried for war crimes

Best PM we’ve ever had.

[Colr]

Think it’s the opposite. Normally all ex PM’s are honoured but she hates Blair for making her look bad when Diana died. Because she hadn’t honoured Blair, she couldn’t honour Brown, Cameron and May and there has been a bit of pressure to do so. They will likely all get the same at her birthday.


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The Queen made herself look bad. Blair save her scrawny privileged arse!

[Wilson]

Best PM we’ve ever had.

Clement Attlee for me.

[Betty Boop]

Pass me the sick bucket a war criminal knighted. Shameful.

[Colr]

Clement Attlee for me.

Before my time.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Best PM we’ve ever had.

Mrs Thatcher thought much the same.

[greenlex]

Wonder how much he paid for it?:rolleyes:

[Haymaker]

Think it’s the opposite. Normally all ex PM’s are honoured but she hates Blair for making her look bad when Diana died. Because she hadn’t honoured Blair, she couldn’t honour Brown, Cameron and May and there has been a bit of pressure to do so. They will likely all get the same at her birthday.


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There is only 24 people allowed in the Order Blair is being knighted in. Brown, Cameron et al will be inducted as space frees up.

[Colr]

There is only 24 people allowed in the Order Blair is being knighted in. Brown, Cameron et al will be inducted as space frees up.

I think Brown is opposed to the honours system. I though Blair was as well but obviously not.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Brown is opposed to the honours system. I though Blair was as well but obviously not.

Labour politicians are always opposed to it until it comes time to get one. And they certainly dish plenty out to their supporters.


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[Steven79]

I think Brown is opposed to the honours system. I though Blair was as well but obviously not.

Brown will get one for his services to the British State in 2014.

[WeeRussell]

Best PM we’ve ever had.

As in edges it as least worst?

[Just Alf]

Not quite sure how it all works but I've just been told the majority of the 'knights' are arranged by the government and the Queen was left with an option of a few extra for personal decisions.

Apparently the current government have bumped tradition and refused to Knight people that they normally should have been (petty was the the word used) so the Queen is sidestepping it and righting a wrong.


Sounds plausible in the discussion I'm having and 5 pints in I ain't going googling! Might all be rubbish lol.

[hibsbollah]

Best PM we’ve ever had.

Not for me. Alec Douglas-Home, every day of the week:not worth

[He's here!]

Best PM we’ve ever had.

Certainly the best in my lifetime.

[Keith_M]

Certainly the best in my lifetime.


TBF, unless you're really old, that's a very low bar.

[McD]

TBF, unless you're really old, that's a very low bar.


funnily enough, that was my exact thought, that in my lifetime there’s not exactly been a a high bar to surpass

[Smartie]

We did that "Mr and Mrs" game with my partner's family yesterday.

One of the questions my partner got was "Which Prime Minister does your partner think did the best job - Thatcher, Major, Blair or Cameron?"

I reluctantly went for Major - which was a good thing, as my partner managed to identify that he was the only one I haven't ranted at length about.

Of course, it really would and should be Blair if it weren't for that rather large and messy blot that he has on his record.

[hibsbollah]

We did that "Mr and Mrs" game with my partner's family yesterday.

One of the questions my partner got was "Which Prime Minister does your partner think did the best job - Thatcher, Major, Blair or Cameron?"

I reluctantly went for Major - which was a good thing, as my partner managed to identify that he was the only one I haven't ranted at length about.

Of course, it really would and should be Blair if it weren't for that rather large and messy blot that he has on his record.

It’s an impossible question. Domestic policies? (Blair scores well) International issues? (None of them, but that’s due to global economic factors as much as anything). Legacy? (Major appears to be undergoing a renaissance in how hes perceived, i remember his administration as a joke collection of oddballs completely lightweight compared to his predecessor who handed the reigns to New Labour almost without a fight) What’s his/her ‘job’ anyway? How is it defined? Fair policies? Record of Delivery?

I think theres an assumption in the question that each of them were trying their best to do a fair, honest job for the good of the country and we can judge them purely on ability. That’s a false assumption. As I've got older I’ve become more convinced that the electoral game is almost always a sham, manipulated by the media and the establishment, and entrenching power and money away from the majority, is the only game they’re interested in.

[blackpoolhibs]

I thought that all prime ministers received this award?

Just remember, Boris Johnson will get one too, now that is incredible. :rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

The other thing I look back on with Blair is “What would a Tory PM do”?

No doubt in my mind we would have been at war. With much less nashing of our retrospective teeth.

I have to say, as a 21 year old, I believed the lie hook line and sinker. It’s only after you see what a mess we left.

The die was cast, there was going to be a war in Iraq. Dubya wanted it. We would have been at war regardless who the PM was.

It’s a shame that people remember him for that, and not actually getting Labour into power, equality legislation, minimum wage, devolution, school and hospital building (PFIs I know!)

J

[Ozyhibby]

The other thing I look back on with Blair is “What would a Tory PM do”?

No doubt in my mind we would have been at war. With much less nashing of our retrospective teeth.

I have to say, as a 21 year old, I believed the lie hook line and sinker. It’s only after you see what a mess we left.

The die was cast, there was going to be a war in Iraq. Dubya wanted it. We would have been at war regardless who the PM was.

It’s a shame that people remember him for that, and not actually getting Labour into power, equality legislation, minimum wage, devolution, school and hospital building (PFIs I know!)

J

It wasn’t inevitable. France and Germany both resisted the temptation to lie to their citizens. If I thought Blair was just mistaken then I might cut him some slack but he fabricated evidence and lied in order to go to war. Millions died as a result.


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[Bristolhibby]

It wasn’t inevitable. France and Germany both resisted the temptation to lie to their citizens. If I thought Blair was just mistaken then I might cut him some slack but he fabricated evidence and lied in order to go to war. Millions died as a result.


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It was inevitable that Britain would go to war. Tory or Blair, it was happening.

Germany traditionally haven’t intervened anywhere since WW2, it’s part of their psyche. Also the French don’t see themselves at the worlds policeman, sadly something Britain did and continues to do so.

J

[degenerated]

Certainly the best in my lifetime.Certainly the best at murdering innocent Iraqis, no arguing with that.

[Bristolhibby]

I know we are talking about British PMs but George W Bush seems to get a free pass in all this over in the U.K.

It’s as if “Presidents gonna do invasions, it’s their thing”.

J

[lucky]

I’m 100% against the honours system and was against the war in Iraq but I’m struggling with Blair being called a war criminal. The British army never carried out war crimes on his instruction or even committed war crimes. If my memory serves me right the British Parliament voted to support the USA invasion on Iraq. It’s terribly sad that British soldiers have lost their lives in that war and all other ones but if Blair is labelled a war criminal for the Iraq war how does history judge Haig for the bombing of Dresden of Churchills influence on WW2?

[ronaldo7]

I’m 100% against the honours system and was against the war in Iraq but I’m struggling with Blair being called a war criminal. The British army never carried out war crimes on his instruction or even committed war crimes. If my memory serves me right the British Parliament voted to support the USA invasion on Iraq. It’s terribly sad that British soldiers have lost their lives in that war and all other ones but if Blair is labelled a war criminal for the Iraq war how does history judge Haig for the bombing of Dresden of Churchills influence on WW2?

Without wanting to take the thread off track. Just because the UK decides not to investigate fully the alleged war crimes, doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I agree with your other points though.

https://www.ecchr.eu/en/case/war-crimes-by-uk-forces-in-iraq/

[Colr]

The other thing I look back on with Blair is “What would a Tory PM do”?

No doubt in my mind we would have been at war. With much less nashing of our retrospective teeth.

I have to say, as a 21 year old, I believed the lie hook line and sinker. It’s only after you see what a mess we left.

The die was cast, there was going to be a war in Iraq. Dubya wanted it. We would have been at war regardless who the PM was.

It’s a shame that people remember him for that, and not actually getting Labour into power, equality legislation, minimum wage, devolution, school and hospital building (PFIs I know!)

J

The doubt the Tories would have gone to war. They did bugger all in the Balkans with plenty dying there until a more interventionist approach was adopted.

[Colr]

I’m 100% against the honours system and was against the war in Iraq but I’m struggling with Blair being called a war criminal. The British army never carried out war crimes on his instruction or even committed war crimes. If my memory serves me right the British Parliament voted to support the USA invasion on Iraq. It’s terribly sad that British soldiers have lost their lives in that war and all other ones but if Blair is labelled a war criminal for the Iraq war how does history judge Haig for the bombing of Dresden of Churchills influence on WW2?
All feels like a joint Left Wing/Tory line of attack to brush the entire Blair period into the gutter to avoid a repeat of a centrist, election wnning Labour government which neither of them want again.
It’s working as well!

[hibsbollah]

All feels like a joint Left Wing/Tory line of attack to brush the entire Blair period into the gutter to avoid a repeat of a centrist, election wnning Labour government which neither of them want again.
It’s working as well!

It’s not a ‘line of attack’, it’s a cold dispassionate look at the historical facts. He lied to parliament and the British people to get a war he wanted.

Blair has a VERY cosy position, mostly feted by the British media who are eager to get his views on everything, still a major influence on the political scene and and he’s a millionaire many times over. He’s hardly ‘under attack’ from an imaginary Trotskyist/Tory coalition :dunno: It was actually him who started the modern trend of Teflon untouchability in politics, do what the **** you want, never ever apologise and keep the press on your side. You appoint the people who investigate you after all so you’ll keep coming up smelling of roses. He’s a lucky ****er.

[Hibrandenburg]

The doubt the Tories would have gone to war. They did bugger all in the Balkans with plenty dying there until a more interventionist approach was adopted.

There's a severe lack of oil in the region. If there was money to be made then they'd have been in quicker than you can say "profit".

[Bristolhibby]

The doubt the Tories would have gone to war. They did bugger all in the Balkans with plenty dying there until a more interventionist approach was adopted.

No oil in Bosnia, also it was mainly Muslims getting killed.

If it were Christians getting shelled and sniped by Muslims it would have been like a return of the Crusades.

Oh and the Balkans is a basket case (see WW1, WW2, Russo / Ottoman wars, east meets West, Muslims meet Christians, Catholics v Orthodox, various nationalist groups, etc.)

J

[Colr]

No oil in Bosnia, also it was mainly Muslims getting killed.

If it were Christians getting shelled and sniped by Muslims it would have been like a return of the Crusades.

Oh and the Balkans is a basket case (see WW1, WW2, Russo / Ottoman wars, east meets West, Muslims meet Christians, Catholics v Orthodox, various nationalist groups, etc.)

J

But Blair stepped up.

[Glory Lurker]

But Blair stepped up.

Finally, once Clinton even more belatedly decided to get involved, just coincidentally while facing a bit of heat on the home front.

[superfurryhibby]

I’m 100% against the honours system and was against the war in Iraq but I’m struggling with Blair being called a war criminal. The British army never carried out war crimes on his instruction or even committed war crimes. If my memory serves me right the British Parliament voted to support the USA invasion on Iraq. It’s terribly sad that British soldiers have lost their lives in that war and all other ones but if Blair is labelled a war criminal for the Iraq war how does history judge Haig for the bombing of Dresden of Churchills influence on WW2?

It was Air Commander "Bomber" Harris who commanded the RAF mission to bomb Dresden.

I'm not sure that you can really compare an action that was part of a global war and aimed at a regime that had used the holocaust as a means of achieving it's aims to Blair taking Britain into a war with Iraq.

The government promoted the weapons of mass destruction line, Parliament swallowed it. Blair knew that this was misleading Parliament and the people. He has blood on his hands, no doubt about it.

I do agree that it's sad that around 200 hundred British soldiers died in Iraq, but lets not forget that the real victims were the 200,000 plus Iraqi civilians who needlessly perished in that conflict

[Colr]

It was Air Commander "Bomber" Harris who commanded the RAF mission to bomb Dresden.

I'm not sure that you can really compare an action that was part of a global war and aimed at a regime that had used the holocaust as a means of achieving it's aims to Blair taking Britain into a war with Iraq.

The government promoted the weapons of mass destruction line, Parliament swallowed it. Blair knew that this was misleading Parliament and the people. He has blood on his hands, no doubt about it.

I do agree that it's sad that around 200 hundred British soldiers died in Iraq, but lets not forget that the real victims were the 200,000 plus Iraqi civilians who needlessly perished in that conflict

Apart from that, it was the best government in my lifetime by some way and absolutely blootered the Tories in 3 elections.

One of the other tragedies about Iraq is that it has so successfully been used to usher in one of the most divisive and self-destructive periods in English politics - with all debate pushed to the extremes and away from the middle ground where, I firmly believe, most of Britain prefers to be. Westminster has now been exposed as utterly unfit for purpose. Scotland has identified its best option - to get out!

The centrist libereral poitics in England have been laid waste when it should have been a sea change. Can’t see how that will change without a lot more pain first.

[lucky]

It was Air Commander "Bomber" Harris who commanded the RAF mission to bomb Dresden.

I'm not sure that you can really compare an action that was part of a global war and aimed at a regime that had used the holocaust as a means of achieving it's aims to Blair taking Britain into a war with Iraq.

The government promoted the weapons of mass destruction line, Parliament swallowed it. Blair knew that this was misleading Parliament and the people. He has blood on his hands, no doubt about it.

I do agree that it's sad that around 200 hundred British soldiers died in Iraq, but lets not forget that the real victims were the 200,000 plus Iraqi civilians who needlessly perished in that conflict

Your correct about Harris and it sad that an estimated 200k Iraqi’s died but they weren’t killed by British forces. The civil war that erupted afterwards was the main cause of that. We must also remember the 000’s killed by Saddam Hussein regime. Blair was not right to go to war but is not a war criminal and comparing any war against each other is justified as innocents and the brave (and not so brave) die.

[gbhibby]

IMO the honours system should be done away with when the current monarch passes. It is outdated and the House of Lords should go when she passes as well.

[Ozyhibby]

IMO the honours system should be done away with when the current monarch passes. It is outdated and the House of Lords should go when she passes as well.

I agree but don’t see what her death has to do with it? If it’s undemocratic then why should it survive a day longer? Operating our democracy around some family dynasty is just plain weird.

[gbhibby]

I agree but don’t see what her death has to do with it? If it’s undemocratic then why should it survive a day longer? Operating our democracy around some family dynasty is just plain weird.

I agree it was just that I thought that it would be a time for a new beginning . president Boris would be unthinkable .

[superfurryhibby]

Your correct about Harris and it sad that an estimated 200k Iraqi’s died but they weren’t killed by British forces. The civil war that erupted afterwards was the main cause of that. We must also remember the 000’s killed by Saddam Hussein regime. Blair was not right to go to war but is not a war criminal and comparing any war against each other is justified as innocents and the brave (and not so brave) die.

Who knows or cares who exactly killed who, the civil war was a direct result of the coalition toppling Saddam Hussein. 400,000 people died needlessly. I also wonder, when did Britain or the USA really care about what dictators do to their people? They intervened and toppled Saddam based on the weapons of mass destruction argument, which turned out to be a lie.

Blair hasn’t been convicted of anything, but he is a war criminal in my mind and no, comparing the Iraq war against WW2 and the fight the Nazis is ludicrous. Dresden was abominable, but it was part of a conflict for survival against a regime who murdered 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians . In those circumstances we can see why events like Dresden happened.

The appointment of Blair as a UN Peace envoy, words just fail me......

[Pretty Boy]

IMO the honours system should be done away with when the current monarch passes. It is outdated and the House of Lords should go when she passes as well.

I'm not against an upper chamber in itself. It's required in a political system that produces majority governments and is a useful tool in scrutinising bad legislation. The whole system needs an overhaul though and something resembling democratic accountability would be a starting point.

On the honours system, much like the monarchy, it's just the formal part of the hereditary hierarchy that runs through UK society. So much of politics, the arts, journalism, broadcasting etc etc is dominated by people who were privately educated, went to the same handful of universities and had parents in the business.

[lucky]

Who knows or cares who exactly killed who, the civil war was a direct result of the coalition toppling Saddam Hussein. 400,000 people died needlessly. I also wonder, when did Britain or the USA really care about what dictators do to their people? They intervened and toppled Saddam based on the weapons of mass destruction argument, which turned out to be a lie.

Blair hasn’t been convicted of anything, but he is a war criminal in my mind and no, comparing the Iraq war against WW2 and the fight the Nazis is ludicrous. Dresden was abominable, but it was part of a conflict for survival against a regime who murdered 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians . In those circumstances we can see why events like Dresden happened.

The appointment of Blair as a UN Peace envoy, words just fail me......

All wars are abhorrent, whilst in your mind Blair is a war criminal that does not mean he is. I marched and campaigned against the war and was delighted when my MP and friend Robin Cook spoke out against the war and resigned from the government over it. The honours system is wrong and gets abused but every PM gets knighted Blair is not being treated differently.

[gbhibby]

I'm not against an upper chamber in itself. It's required in a political system that produces majority governments and is a useful tool in scrutinising bad legislation. The whole system needs an overhaul though and something resembling democratic accountability would be a starting point.

On the honours system, much like the monarchy, it's just the formal part of the hereditary hierarchy that runs through UK society. So much of politics, the arts, journalism, broadcasting etc etc is dominated by people who were privately educated, went to the same handful of universities and had parents in the business.
I am not against an upper chamber but like you an elected 2nd chamber.There are some good people in the Lords but we need it to be accountable and not necessarily party political.

[Keith_M]

I love the way people try to justify certain actions by comparing them to other atrocities.


Two wrongs....

[superfurryhibby]

All wars are abhorrent, whilst in your mind Blair is a war criminal that does not mean he is. I marched and campaigned against the war and was delighted when my MP and friend Robin Cook spoke out against the war and resigned from the government over it. The honours system is wrong and gets abused but every PM gets knighted Blair is not being treated differently.

The thread opened with a statement from the OP that Blair should be in court rather than receive a Knighthood.

I know he has never been convicted of war crimes, neither have many other abominations.

I don’t care what traditions exist within our privileged classes, he is a corrupt liar with blood on his hands.

People mentioning that Parliament voted for the war, as if that somehow exonerates Blair ( not you), They obviously didn't listen to the news when the Chilcot report was published.

Blair’s a Catholic, I hope he lives in fear of the judgement that his faith says will lie in wait for the likes of him

[majorhibs]

The thread opened with a statement from the OP that Blair should be in court rather than receive a Knighthood.

I know he has never been convicted of war crimes, neither have many other abominations.

I don’t care what traditions exist within our privileged classes, he is a corrupt liar with blood on his hands.

People mentioning that Parliament voted for the war, as if that somehow exonerates Blair ( not you), They obviously didn't listen to the news when the Chilcot report was published.

Blair’s a Catholic, I hope he lives in fear of the judgement that his faith says will lie in wait for the likes of him

You really are not for real!

[superfurryhibby]

You really are not for real!

I take that as a huge compliment, thank you. Blair's baptism as a Catholic was widely reported at the time. It is, believe it or not one of the key doctrinal principles of that faith that sinners will be judged at the end of their mortal lives. On that basis and according to his beliefs, he will answer for his actions in this life.

[T]he damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave and certain; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; there must be serious prospects of success; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. (CCC 2309)


https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/seven-principles-of-catholic-social-teaching

On the basis of the above Tony Blair's warmongering fails the key principles of his faith.



THis was posted on another thread.

https://www.tech-gate.org/usa/2022/01/04/tony-blairs-defence-secretary-geoff-hoon-says-he-was-told-to-burn-secret-iraq-memo/


Geoff Hoon says he was ordered by Downing Street to burn a secret memo that said the 2003 invasion of Iraq could be illegal.

When the claim emerged in 2015, Sir Tony said it was ‘nonsense’. But Mr Hoon, who was in charge of defence when the war started, insists the allegation was true and he has now given a sensational blow-by-blow account of a No 10 ‘cover-up’.

He says his principal private secretary was told ‘in no uncertain terms’ by Jonathan Powell, Sir Tony’s chief of staff, that after reading the document he must ‘burn it’. Mr Hoon said the MoD mandarin was deeply alarmed by the order – and they defied Downing Street by locking the memo in a safe instead. He also:

Echoes claims that Sir Tony signed a ‘deal in blood’ with George Bush to back the war a year before it began;
Reveals he was given a prime ministerial dressing down for telling the US that if MPs voted against the war UK troops couldn’t take part;
Accuses the No 10 press office of being behind notorious ‘45 minutes from doom’ reports that exaggerated the threat from Saddam Hussein’s military;
Says he was sacked and ‘hung out to dry’ by Sir Tony to escape blame for the war.