Levels

[matty_f]

Taking a step back from the big incidents etc today, and how we played, one of the big differences i noticed was the difference in levels of standard between the individuals in each team today.

Clearly, there’s a very significant element of “you get what you pay for” involved, and given the vast difference in budget, you’d expect to see Celtic fielding better players than we do.

I thought there were notable differences in things like physical ability (speec & strength), technical ability - first touch, passing, dribbling were generally very good from Celtic, whereas we struggled to put three passes together all game.

The biggest thing was the attitude, i don’t think I would be *that* critical of Hibs for our attitude today, but I’d be amazed if our players covered the ground that Celtic did. They worked for everything, their movement, especially off the ball, was very, very good and you can see what their manager is doing with them.

We can’t afford to buy players at that level, so whoever comes in to take over from Ross needs to be looking at how you get that level of workrate and tactical competence out of the squad we have.

[ionahibby]

Will be interesting to find out what RG has promised Maloney? Surely he will have wanted assurances of funds? We need it badly.

[jacomo]

Celtc squad are buying into ‘a project’, as they say. Strong leadership will do that.

Obviously there is a gulf in terms of resources, but our players have similar resources to utilise and surely we know as much about sports science etc.

The difference is largely psychological imo. Gary Caldwell said many years ago that there was a big gap between our training and Celtc’s… this was before East Mains, so maybe there was. But how much was in his head, ie now he was on a huge contract and determined to earn his place?

[Pretty Boy]

The most notable difference for me was confidence, self belief and trust in both themselves and their teammates.

Hibs set up was understandable in the 1st half even if it was a tough watch. We were always going to be under the cosh so to get in at HT still in the game was welcome. Celtic are tough to play against, they press the ball, have bags of intensity and hunt in packs. I’m surprised how dismissive people are of them, they have glaring issues at the back but in midfield and going forward they are a very slick, very good side. All that means that you simply have to have the ability to keep the ball, slow the game and relieve the pressure. We completely failed to do that.

A large part of that failure was poor decision making when we did have the ball. There was one instance in the 1st half that I mentioned on the match thread. Lewis Stevenson (who had a very decent game with no help from the man in front of him) had the ball. Newell was 5 yards inside him in plenty space, he would have had time to receive the ball, turn and pick another pass and we would have had 20-30 seconds possession minimum. Instead LS took a touch onto his left foot and hammered a 50/50 ball long up the line and Murphy was easily outmuscled and we gave up the ball. That was repeated throughout the 1st half. Our players were unable and/or unwilling to take the ball in tight spaces and likewise unwilling to give it to their team mates in similar situations. Our first thought seemed to be to offload the ball, bypass the midfield and regroup behind the ball.

Where Celtic were able to knock the ball about among their midfield 3, drive with the ball and work it wide; we were rushed, nervy and under pressure through bad touches and giving the ball away far too easily. Totally understand why confidence is low at the moment but today was a stark example of just how low it is. Of course technical ability plays a huge part as well. We don’t have a striker who moves like Kyogo to create gaps and space, we won’t have midfielder with the ability to move and retain the ball like McGreggor and we don’t have anyone who can pick a pass like Rogic. They all trust each other and themselves implicitly though, I’m nowhere near convinced the same is true of our players.

[john rossi]

Fitness Celtic have that in abundance going back to the Jock Stein era they would run teams off the park Lennox,Johnstone,Gemmel Hughes’s etc. why is it mentality lack of desire to be the best you can be? Hibs are unfit compared to them.

[Smartie]

The most notable difference for me was confidence, self belief and trust in both themselves and their teammates.

Hibs set up was understandable in the 1st half even if it was a tough watch. We were always going to be under the cosh so to get in at HT still in the game was welcome. Celtic are tough to play against, they press the ball, have bags of intensity and hunt in packs. I’m surprised how dismissive people are of them, they have glaring issues at the back but in midfield and going forward they are a very slick, very good side. All that means that you simply have to have the ability to keep the ball, slow the game and relieve the pressure. We completely failed to do that.

A large part of that failure was poor decision making when we did have the ball. There was one instance in the 1st half that I mentioned on the match thread. Lewis Stevenson (who had a very decent game with no help from the man in front of him) had the ball. Newell was 5 yards inside him in plenty space, he would have had time to receive the ball, turn and pick another pass and we would have had 20-30 seconds possession minimum. Instead LS took a touch onto his left foot and hammered a 50/50 ball long up the line and Murphy was easily outmuscled and we gave up the ball. That was repeated throughout the 1st half. Our players were unable and/or unwilling to take the ball in tight spaces and likewise unwilling to give it to their team mates in similar situations. Our first thought seemed to be to offload the ball, bypass the midfield and regroup behind the ball.

Where Celtic were able to knock the ball about among their midfield 3, drive with the ball and work it wide; we were rushed, nervy and under pressure through bad touches and giving the ball away far too easily. Totally understand why confidence is low at the moment but today was a stark example of just how low it is. Of course technical ability plays a huge part as well. We don’t have a striker who moves like Kyogo to create gaps and space, we won’t have midfielder with the ability to move and retain the ball like McGreggor and we don’t have anyone who can pick a pass like Rogic. They all trust each other and themselves implicitly though, I’m nowhere near convinced the same is true of our players.

That’s how I saw it too.

At half time - I was happy to be level and very much in the game.

The main issue I had with our first half performance was the lack of composure that was on display. We just lacked that bit of bravery and confidence to play football, instead rushing a lump up the park too often. That has it’s place, as does turning a slow defence playing a high line but I thought we looked about as low on confidence as you’d expect a team in our form to be.

We have good players throughout that team - they just need to believe in themselves and one another a bit more.

A bit of extra quality in certain positions wouldn’t go amiss but I don’t think that’s the main issue.

[PPZPOL]

Kyogo gets the headlines for the goals, but he works extremely hard during the game without the ball. He was able to close down, nick the ball or force quicker distribution from our defence throughout and it caused all sorts of panic and turnover of possession. That was him not 100% fit as well but worked so hard for his team.

I long for a Hibs team/striker to work that hard but maybe I’m a dreamer and you need to spend top dollar to get that.

[Lancs Harp]

The most notable difference for me was confidence, self belief and trust in both themselves and their teammates.

Hibs set up was understandable in the 1st half even if it was a tough watch. We were always going to be under the cosh so to get in at HT still in the game was welcome. Celtic are tough to play against, they press the ball, have bags of intensity and hunt in packs. I’m surprised how dismissive people are of them, they have glaring issues at the back but in midfield and going forward they are a very slick, very good side. All that means that you simply have to have the ability to keep the ball, slow the game and relieve the pressure. We completely failed to do that.

A large part of that failure was poor decision making when we did have the ball. There was one instance in the 1st half that I mentioned on the match thread. Lewis Stevenson (who had a very decent game with no help from the man in front of him) had the ball. Newell was 5 yards inside him in plenty space, he would have had time to receive the ball, turn and pick another pass and we would have had 20-30 seconds possession minimum. Instead LS took a touch onto his left foot and hammered a 50/50 ball long up the line and Murphy was easily outmuscled and we gave up the ball. That was repeated throughout the 1st half. Our players were unable and/or unwilling to take the ball in tight spaces and likewise unwilling to give it to their team mates in similar situations. Our first thought seemed to be to offload the ball, bypass the midfield and regroup behind the ball.

Where Celtic were able to knock the ball about among their midfield 3, drive with the ball and work it wide; we were rushed, nervy and under pressure through bad touches and giving the ball away far too easily. Totally understand why confidence is low at the moment but today was a stark example of just how low it is. Of course technical ability plays a huge part as well. We don’t have a striker who moves like Kyogo to create gaps and space, we won’t have midfielder with the ability to move and retain the ball like McGreggor and we don’t have anyone who can pick a pass like Rogic. They all trust each other and themselves implicitly though, I’m nowhere near convinced the same is true of our players.


I get alot of that PB but the most notable difference is that they simply for obvious reasons do have better players than us. Having superior ability breeds confidence and self belief. Playing the OF is always a difficult ask, the cards are stacked against us. I thought, despite losing today we did ok, we hung in there in the first half and although we created very little Celtic didnt create much either desite having virtually all the possession. We created a few chances in the latter part of the second half and were very unlucky hitting the post, we also managed to get ourselves infront but switched off to give them two goals and didnt get the rub of the green with refereeing decisons. Its a big ask for fans to expect us to play the likes of Celtic off the park, we were heavily outgunned in midfield, which meant we often had to go from back to front with a long ball, which although not pretty did lead to us creating things late on. What else can you do when the opostion have such a strangle hold on the middle of the park?

[john rossi]

Fitness Celtic have that in abundance going back to the Jock Stein era they would run teams off the park Lennox,Johnstone,Gemmel Hughes’s etc. why is it mentality lack of desire to be the best you can be? Hibs are unfit compared to them.

[gbhibby]

Fitness levels have not been good enough at any time during Jack Ross leadership of the team. You only get out what you put in. My first job as a new manager would be conditioning of the players.
Passing, movement and shape needs work as well. Running into space etc needs a good level of fitness and so does pressing. Every team has access to the same text books regarding conditioning of players. The new manager needs to look at all backroom staff and players need to work harder.

[superfurryhibby]

I would expect a team with a budget x 10 that of the opposition to win a game 9 times out of 10.

[Callum_62]

I get alot of that PB but the most notable difference is that they simply for obvious reasons do have better players than us. Having superior ability breeds confidence and self belief. Playing the OF is always a difficult ask, the cards are stacked against us. I thought, despite losing today we did ok, we hung in there in the first half and although we created very little Celtic didnt create much either desite having virtually all the possession. We created a few chances in the latter part of the second half and were very unlucky hitting the post, we also managed to get ourselves infront but switched off to give them two goals and didnt get the rub of the green with refereeing decisons. Its a big ask for fans to expect us to play the likes of Celtic off the park, we were heavily outgunned in midfield, which meant we often had to go from back to front with a long ball, which although not pretty did lead to us creating things late on. What else can you do when the opostion have such a strangle hold on the middle of the park?Is there ever a year we don't see a 'they were there for the taking' post

But the OF are almost always light years ahead of all other teams

This celtic team could easily win the league. There massive weapon is speed and guile on attack

Turnovers could cost you a goal - its no wonder we sat in

This isn't an average celtic team at all

I was content at half time to be level and they actually didn't create much in open play first half

2nd half I'm almost certain we had more clear cut chances than they did

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[bayhibs]

I get alot of that PB but the most notable difference is that they simply for obvious reasons do have better players than us. Having superior ability breeds confidence and self belief. Playing the OF is always a difficult ask, the cards are stacked against us. I thought, despite losing today we did ok, we hung in there in the first half and although we created very little Celtic didnt create much either desite having virtually all the possession. We created a few chances in the latter part of the second half and were very unlucky hitting the post, we also managed to get ourselves infront but switched off to give them two goals and didnt get the rub of the green with refereeing decisons. Its a big ask for fans to expect us to play the likes of Celtic off the park, we were heavily outgunned in midfield, which meant we often had to go from back to front with a long ball, which although not pretty did lead to us creating things late on. What else can you do when the opostion have such a strangle hold on the middle of the park?

That's a great summary of today in my opinion. Really disappointed by some poor decisions but overall thought we did pretty well.

[King conrad]

Kyogo great little player, Brilliant touch,awareness, finishing but above all else his workrate was tremendous.
He sprinted and chased down Hanlon and Porteous at every opportunity and never stopped, compare that to our centre forward! Did he do that? There is the difference and is what the top players do.

[madhatter]

Passing and first touch gave them the platform for the rest. Very difficult to overlap or make runs forward when you are questioning whether your team mate will win a 50/50, take a heavy touch or make the wrong choice and lose possession.

They are defensively quite weak but Celtic are best team in the league. The intensity of their play at times was quite something. No wonder they've got injuries, they'll have more soon enough playing like that. Rogic is a bizarre player, no idea how he slithers away from opponents. He doesn't do it at great pace either...

[Iain G]

Fitness Celtic have that in abundance going back to the Jock Stein era they would run teams off the park Lennox,Johnstone,Gemmel Hughes’s etc. why is it mentality lack of desire to be the best you can be? Hibs are unfit compared to them.

I remember John Collins trying to get our fitness levels up with his french fitness guy, that was probably part of the reasons for Miley Stewart et Al to revolt...

[Key West]

I get alot of that PB but the most notable difference is that they simply for obvious reasons do have better players than us. Having superior ability breeds confidence and self belief. Playing the OF is always a difficult ask, the cards are stacked against us. I thought, despite losing today we did ok, we hung in there in the first half and although we created very little Celtic didnt create much either desite having virtually all the possession. We created a few chances in the latter part of the second half and were very unlucky hitting the post, we also managed to get ourselves infront but switched off to give them two goals and didnt get the rub of the green with refereeing decisons. Its a big ask for fans to expect us to play the likes of Celtic off the park, we were heavily outgunned in midfield, which meant we often had to go from back to front with a long ball, which although not pretty did lead to us creating things late on. What else can you do when the opostion have such a strangle hold on the middle of the park?

Being logical and realistic will get you nowhere on the forum.:wink:

[hibsbollah]

We will start to approach the levels of Rangers and Celtic when something happens to turn those clubs upside down, or after we build a squad by spending say £8million on players per season over the course of 3 seasons, while hitting the jackpot with most of them and getting very lucky with our choice of manager. It just won’t happen before then.

[gbhibby]

I remember John Collins trying to get our fitness levels up with his french fitness guy, that was probably part of the reasons for Miley Stewart et Al to revolt...
Players need to take responsibility for their own development. Players like Collins, John McGinn put the effort in, work hard are proactive with regards to developing themselves. If players don't like it they can go.

[Green Reaper]

Taking a step back from the big incidents etc today, and how we played, one of the big differences i noticed was the difference in levels of standard between the individuals in each team today.

Clearly, there’s a very significant element of “you get what you pay for” involved, and given the vast difference in budget, you’d expect to see Celtic fielding better players than we do.

I thought there were notable differences in things like physical ability (speec & strength), technical ability - first touch, passing, dribbling were generally very good from Celtic, whereas we struggled to put three passes together all game.

The biggest thing was the attitude, i don’t think I would be *that* critical of Hibs for our attitude today, but I’d be amazed if our players covered the ground that Celtic did. They worked for everything, their movement, especially off the ball, was very, very good and you can see what their manager is doing with them.

We can’t afford to buy players at that level, so whoever comes in to take over from Ross needs to be looking at how you get that level of workrate and tactical competence out of the squad we have.

Matty, if you haven’t already listened to the Maloney interview linked on about page 16 of the new manager thread, then do so. Some of the points you raise are talked about and the way he talks about some things, like attitude and aggression are very interesting.

[matty_f]

Matty, if you haven’t already listened to the Maloney interview linked on about page 16 of the new manager thread, then do so. Some of the points you raise are talked about and the way he talks about some things, like attitude and aggression are very interesting.

I haven’t listened but I’ll go and find it :aok:

[jacomo]

Kyogo gets the headlines for the goals, but he works extremely hard during the game without the ball. He was able to close down, nick the ball or force quicker distribution from our defence throughout and it caused all sorts of panic and turnover of possession. That was him not 100% fit as well but worked so hard for his team.

I long for a Hibs team/striker to work that hard but maybe I’m a dreamer and you need to spend top dollar to get that.


He looks like a quality player, way beyond our budget.

[hibsbollah]

He looks like a quality player, way beyond our budget.

He’ll move to a club like Southampton in a season or two.

[Tyler Durden]

Have to say I was really surprised by the amount of comments about Celtic being a poor side :rolleyes:

They are an excellent side, who will dominate possession in every game. They have major defensive frailties and we nearly capitalised on those. Our defending, concentration and lack of clinical finishing cost us. We probably won't get a better chance to beat an OF team in a final for years and that's the major disappointment for me. Celtic will only get better in the next few years IMO.

With the right manager though, we can try to play in similar style to them. Actually pass the ball properly at pace, try to win the ball back quickly with aggressive organised pressing. Start games quickly.

Celtic are a great example of how quickly things can change under a new manager.

[bingo70]

It was like they had an extra man on the pitch, and I don’t mean the ref. Every single second ball seemed to just drop to one of their players.

Maybe not so relevant now but towards the end of Ross’s reign I’d have loved to have seen our running stats compared to other clubs. I know they’re published down south and the stats the Leeds players returned were phenomenal. It always felt like we were very static, when we never had the ball we’d fall back into shape rather than pressing and when we had the ball we’d rely heavily on one or two players to do things so our midfielders could keep their shape.

The only person I remember bursting past our forward yesterday was Porteous in the last minute and it nearly created a goal.

[Iain G]

It was like they had an extra man on the pitch, and I don’t mean the ref. Every single second ball seemed to just drop to one of their players.

Maybe not so relevant now but towards the end of Ross’s reign I’d have loved to have seen our running stats compared to other clubs. I know they’re published down south and the stats the Leeds players returned were phenomenal. It always felt like we were very static, when we never had the ball we’d fall back into shape rather than pressing and when we had the ball we’d rely heavily on one or two players to do things so our midfielders could keep their shape.

The only person I remember bursting past our forward yesterday was Porteous in the last minute and it nearly created a goal.

And in amongst it all they have Rogic who is calm and can spot and pick a pass as other players move for him creating space and options.

We need proper movement and energy and also someone who can stay calm and pick the pass. Could Allan do this role consistently and adapt his game? He would need the legs and energy and movement around him to make it work but we need midfielders who can look after and hold onto the ball

[number9dream]

Have to say I was really surprised by the amount of comments about Celtic being a poor side :rolleyes:

They are an excellent side, who will dominate possession in every game. They have major defensive frailties and we nearly capitalised on those. Our defending, concentration and lack of clinical finishing cost us. We probably won't get a better chance to beat an OF team in a final for years and that's the major disappointment for me. Celtic will only get better in the next few years IMO.

With the right manager though, we can try to play in similar style to them. Actually pass the ball properly at pace, try to win the ball back quickly with aggressive organised pressing. Start games quickly.

Celtic are a great example of how quickly things can change under a new manager.

Yup, I fear that was as good a chance as we'll get against them for quite some time. I've been very impressed by big Ange. What a difference in Celtic now they are being properly coached rather than just yelled at by Lennon. I think they got lucky with Howe's late change of heart.
But that was a Celtic team without Forrest & Jota, they lost Turnbull early and Kyogo can't have been anywhere near 100%. Their defence looked ropey in the final 10 minutes when the game became chaotic and we finally managed to get into their penalty area but they will probably improve at the back too with a few new signings.
Hopefully, our new boss can implement ways to make us better but he won't have the luxury of wholesale changes in personnel.

[Torto7]

It's almost like we've been on a brutal run of games with a a tiny squad of players. I must have watched a different game yesterday. Hibs were the better team second half.

[Mainstandman]

The game at Easter Road and yesterday showed the difference in the organization, movement, focus, structure and professionalism. None of those things are to do with football skills ability. There a list of things I've seen before -

Things that require no talent:

Being on time
Work ethic
Effort
Body language
Energy
Attitude
Passion
Being Coachable
Doing Extra
Being prepared.

Celtic looked like a side that expected to win we were hoping, but hoping without doing all the good stuff that they do.


I'll be interested to see what Maloney brings.

[Broken Gnome]

I've banged on about this before, but the most glaringly deficiency we have - all the more obvious when playing Celtic - is a lack of movement. Our shape and pretty defensive set up doesn't lend itself to players actually looking to make things happen, so we always looking likely to cough up possession to a pressing team within three or four passes.

Celtic have better and sharper players, and a style that requires trust in passes always being available. We are miles off that, and for all they have their plus points Newell, JDH and Campbell are not a middle three that can work angles and take us 30 yards up the park.

I'm not even sure we can efficiently train for such games, as we'll never be able to replicate Celtic's speed and press.

The only way around that is a bit of bravery in possession but we can only retain the ball really through safe options or letting Boyle run with it. It's too much to overcome given the imbalance of the squad, so the game plan - and getting to half time at 0-0 - is totally understandable.

Would love us to get back to Mowbray/Collins levels obviously.

[snedzuk]

The game at Easter Road and yesterday showed the difference in the organization, movement, focus, structure and professionalism. None of those things are to do with football skills ability. There a list of things I've seen before -

Things that require no talent:

Being on time
Work ethic
Effort
Body language
Energy
Attitude
Passion
Being Coachable
Doing Extra
Being prepared.

Celtic looked like a side that expected to win we were hoping, but hoping without doing all the good stuff that they do.


I'll be interested to see what Maloney brings.

Ten attributes that Lewis Stevenson has in spades.

[Is It On....]

Taking a step back from the big incidents etc today, and how we played, one of the big differences i noticed was the difference in levels of standard between the individuals in each team today.

Clearly, there’s a very significant element of “you get what you pay for” involved, and given the vast difference in budget, you’d expect to see Celtic fielding better players than we do.

I thought there were notable differences in things like physical ability (speec & strength), technical ability - first touch, passing, dribbling were generally very good from Celtic, whereas we struggled to put three passes together all game.

The biggest thing was the attitude, i don’t think I would be *that* critical of Hibs for our attitude today, but I’d be amazed if our players covered the ground that Celtic did. They worked for everything, their movement, especially off the ball, was very, very good and you can see what their manager is doing with them.

We can’t afford to buy players at that level, so whoever comes in to take over from Ross needs to be looking at how you get that level of workrate and tactical competence out of the squad we have.

I suspect the fitness and conditioning will be a key part of the role of Mr Zuddas.

"Zuddas has two Bachelor’s Degrees; one in Exercise and Sports Science and another in Communication and Information Sciences. He also has certificates in Strength and Conditioning for Football, Advanced Sport Nutrition, and Neurobiology and Performance from the Barça Innovation Hub."

[Is It On....]

Ten attributes that Lewis Stevenson has in spades.

I think if other players showed the same level of commitment and professionalism to their job as footballers as Lewis Stevenson and Paul Hanlon do, then we would be in a far better place and so would some more talented players we have had over the years (including a couple of wayward souls currently at Dundee).

[ahibby]

Taking a step back from the big incidents etc today, and how we played, one of the big differences i noticed was the difference in levels of standard between the individuals in each team today.

Clearly, there’s a very significant element of “you get what you pay for” involved, and given the vast difference in budget, you’d expect to see Celtic fielding better players than we do.

I thought there were notable differences in things like physical ability (speec & strength), technical ability - first touch, passing, dribbling were generally very good from Celtic, whereas we struggled to put three passes together all game.

The biggest thing was the attitude, i don’t think I would be *that* critical of Hibs for our attitude today, but I’d be amazed if our players covered the ground that Celtic did. They worked for everything, their movement, especially off the ball, was very, very good and you can see what their manager is doing with them.

We can’t afford to buy players at that level, so whoever comes in to take over from Ross needs to be looking at how you get that level of workrate and tactical competence out of the squad we have.

Good post imo. I agree with it all and want to point out that despite all of that, they required two of the cheapest goals that you will ever see us giving away, to win. There is a lesson to be learned and that is you can be second best when it comes to ability, speed, movement, etc etc as long as you stay alert and don't give away the cheapest of goals. Celtic individually better no doubt, but Hibs lost that rather than them winning it.

[PPZPOL]

I've banged on about this before, but the most glaringly deficiency we have - all the more obvious when playing Celtic - is a lack of movement. Our shape and pretty defensive set up doesn't lend itself to players actually looking to make things happen, so we always looking likely to cough up possession to a pressing team within three or four passes.

Celtic have better and sharper players, and a style that requires trust in passes always being available. We are miles off that, and for all they have their plus points Newell, JDH and Campbell are not a middle three that can work angles and take us 30 yards up the park.

I'm not even sure we can efficiently train for such games, as we'll never be able to replicate Celtic's speed and press.

The only way around that is a bit of bravery in possession but we can only retain the ball really through safe options or letting Boyle run with it. It's too much to overcome given the imbalance of the squad, so the game plan - and getting to half time at 0-0 - is totally understandable.

Would love us to get back to Mowbray/Collins levels obviously.

Hard to disagree with any of that. You can tell Celtic are being coached differently now, albeit they have better players. But you can coach a team of pros and I’m enthusiastic that Shaun Maloney will be able to do that. Rotations and movement are coached over and over, it’s not a coincidence that good teams find space and are available in dangerous areas and “break lines”. I hope we can get better at that, because as you say, there doesn’t seem to be a real pattern to our play which means often when we create chances it is through Boyle’s pace or a bit of “luck”.

Listened to an SM interview from a year ago and I was excited by it.