Doyle Hayes and Newell.

[Chorley Hibee]

Another fixture passes with both these two slowing the game to walking pace and passing sideways and backwards for ninety minutes.

Don't think I've ever seen one of these two make a run beyond the man in possession or actually drive at a defence.

One of them needed to be subbed for Allan at half time, the fact both remained on the park sums up Ross and his mindset.

Will undoubtedly be the first names on the team sheet come Saturday though.

[Carheenlea]

They both played their part in a lovely 40 pass possession sequence around the middle of the park then coming to an end back in our own half. Snoozetastic.

[B.H.F.C]

May be all right individually but not together.

They must have passed the ball to the back four about a hundred times between them tonight. Still, the stats will probably show that they had a good passing accuracy or something like that.

Midfield is a big part of our problems because it’s a bit of a nothing area for us just now IMO.

[zitelli62]

Stop turning Back and playing a Back pass but I'm sure that is down to the manager.

[madhatter]

They are exactly the reason we rely on crosses into the box. No presence in the middle of the park near the opponent's box. Can't build up play in the middle. They both spend the match positioning themselves to recycle possession. Natural choice is sideways or backwards. Newell loves his slow close control turns as well. Shame he doesnt seem to realise in that time the opponents whole team have got back into their positions and Boyle has no space.

[Scotty Leither]

I tear what's left of my hair out watching Newell...he's got a good touch on him and nice close control and can thread a pass but his first instinct seems to be ball retention and sideways/backwards passing, even in advanced areas.

Was he not a winger when we signed him?

[number9dream]

You know what to expect against Livingston and those two were completely bossed by Omeonga and Holt.
JDH looks a bit like a consumptive orphan from a Dickens novel and tonight he played like one. Utterly feeble.
However, the lack of energy and intensity was a problem from every player this evening. They just fell apart after the penalty miss, losing every battle on the pitch. Seriously weak mentality.

[Ozyhibby]

Nah, Joe Newall is amazing. I read it on here all the time.[emoji849]


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[Dublin07]

They are both individually good players but should never ever be played as a 2 in midfield. Both fit Ross negative mindset perfectly. Sideways and backwards. Gives teams like livi all the time in the world to get in their shape and become impossible to break down. We can all see that but Ross is too stubborn to see he is wrong.

[Heisenberg]

Try one of them (I’d be inclined to say JDH) with Campbell and Allan on Saturday. Can’t be any worse.

[B.H.F.C]

Try one of them (I’d be inclined to say JDH) with Campbell and Allan on Saturday. Can’t be any worse.

Just think it’s such an obvious thing. There is no way that the three who have been playing together are a midfield for a team who aspire to be at the top end of the table. In time, Campbell looks like he might chip in with a goal here or there because he does try to get in to the box but the other two are terrified to shoot. You can get away with a midfielder who isn’t going to do anything in the final third, but not the whole lot.

[Mikey_1875]

I like both players individually and still feel that they can work well together against the bigger teams in the league. However as people have pointed out it has became glaringly obvious as the season goes on that against the weaker teams it is just far too negative.

If I was to pick between the two i’d go for Newell but realise he is one of the most divisive players in the squad when it comes to fan opinion.

[jeffers]

Just think it’s such an obvious thing. There is no way that the three who have been playing together are a midfield for a team who aspire to be at the top end of the table. In time, Campbell looks like he might chip in with a goal here or there because he does try to get in to the box but the other two are terrified to shoot. You can get away with a midfielder who isn’t going to do anything in the final third, but not the whole lot.

Agreed. In the same way you wouldn’t want three Scott Allan types in a midfield, there needs to be balance.

[Dmas]

I like both players individually and still feel that they can work well together against the bigger teams in the league. However as people have pointed out it has became glaringly obvious as the season goes on that against the weaker teams it is just far too negative.

If I was to pick between the two i’d go for Newell but realise he is one of the most divisive players in the squad when it comes to fan opinion.

Tend to agree with this, although I’m not so sure we need both in the same team at any stage think they are far too similar, neither are going to give you anything in an attacking sense and I’m not convinced by either adding anything defensively, in fact I’m starting to wonder if our inability to defend crosses this season is actually down to gogic being out the team and we’ve lost a bit of defensive cover that way, there’s no doubt both JDH and Newell can use the ball well and I’m aware that sometimes a forward pass just isn’t on in games like tonight when livi had something to defend but it’s the tempo they play at that bothers me most we needed to be sharper on the ball and it just doesn’t happen with these guys

[J-C]

Newell is a show pony, his stats are good because all he does is sideways/backward 5 yard passes, very rarely goes forward. JDH is fairly similar but there's really only room for 1 deep midfielder and another reason Gogic is getting no game time right now. We're missing the energy and drive of Magennis, Campbell has done ok but he's nowhere near that level, decent squad player, Hallberg has also been a miss as an alternative. Right now we need 2-3 midfielders to add some variation, Tait comes in January so that's at least 1, 2 more needed.

[Steve88]

Modern football theory tells us we need two DM's because, it's what all the top teams do..


Big Marv or McGeouch grabbed the DM role by the ba$ws by themselves and stormed it.

[Waxy]

Modern football theory tells us we need two DM's because, it's what all the top teams do..


Big Marv or McGeouch grabbed the DM role by the ba$ws by themselves and stormed it.
McGeouch would always attempt to turn defence into attack

[Libby Hibby]

I don’t think both are bad players but the style the adopt on the park is toothless. That has to be coached into them.

[18Craig75]

Said this at the game, they’ve moulded into the same player, getting in the way of each other. It’s fine having them both in the team when we’re all out attack and leaving players high up the park, but we aren’t. It was glaringly obvious last night one of them needed taken off.

[Steve88]

I don’t think both are bad players but the style the adopt on the park is toothless. That has to be coached into them.

Deep lying playmakers.

Something Heckingbottom tried to install with Hibs using Mallan, Opting to turn Hibs from a combative, high energy team to a "easy on the eye" football team..

[FilipinoHibs]

I thought Newell made a few forward runs last night, taking on and beating players. Doyle-Hayes no, incapable of beating a man.

[Iain G]

Deep lying playmakers.

Some Heckingbottom tried to install with Hibs using Mallan, Opting to turn Hibs from a combative, high energy team to a "easy on the eye" football team..

It's a role for the right player to take the ball from our defenders and move it forward, keeping possession of the ball, a role that Boozy or McGeough did very well.

Either JDH or Newell can do this job, but do we need both against a stuffy Livi side?

[Fergus52]

I think both are very good players and were far away from our biggest problem last night: our decision making in the final third was terrible with Boyle, Nisbet and Campbell all guilty of not releasing the ball early enough, or dribbling when they should have passed and vice versa.

Likewise its neither of their faults that our defense completely switches off for their goal, or that Boyle skies a pen, Nisbet misses a free header 6 yards out and Scott Allan skies an easy chance.

However I agree that against sides such as Livingstone we don't need to be playing both, they are too similar and having someone with a bit more energy and drive next to either one would improve our midfield a lot imo.

[Fergus52]

All he does is take corners. Hee haw else. Luxury player we can do without.


Newell is a show pony, his stats are good because all he does is sideways/backward 5 yard passes, very rarely goes forward.

Sideways and backwards passes would boost up his pass completion rate, but nothing else.

He has some of the best numbers in the squad for tackles per game, interceptions per game, dribbles per game, chances created, crosses and passes into box.

I feel his defensive contributions often get overlooked due to his body language and the way the way he just nicks the ball rather than charging in the way someone like Bartley or Gogic would, his numbers for winning the ball back are right up there with the best DMs in the league.

I also feel the common criticism of playing the ball backwards and sideways too often is a lazy complaint that stems from last season when he was more guilty of this. Most games this year I feel he's been more positive, trying to take players on more and play more forward passes into the final third - which again is backed up in his stats which show an improvement in chances created, crosses into box and dribbles per game.

Posters can get snide about stats all they like but they clearly paint a different picture from the player they've been watching and cut through the inherent bias that comes from trying to assess a player that you've previously decided to either like or not like.

[blackpoolhibs]

Newell is a show pony, his stats are good because all he does is sideways/backward 5 yard passes, very rarely goes forward. JDH is fairly similar but there's really only room for 1 deep midfielder and another reason Gogic is getting no game time right now. We're missing the energy and drive of Magennis, Campbell has done ok but he's nowhere near that level, decent squad player, Hallberg has also been a miss as an alternative. Right now we need 2-3 midfielders to add some variation, Tait comes in January so that's at least 1, 2 more needed.

Expect some grief for saying that JC, but it is 100% true, does the square root of nothing every game, he might make the odd tackle, but his first thought all the bloody time is to pass the ball backwards or sideways.

Never takes the game by the scruff of its neck, never drives the team forward, never drives forward with the ball, and creates sod all apart from apathy.

I get it that clubs need to keep possession of the ball, but FFS we still need to create things, make things happen when we have it.

[MrRobot]

I think Newell and JDH are actually both really good players, maybe they are too similar or playing too safe, which could be down to instructions from Ross. Newell especially we have seen can get himself forward pretty effectively, although his shooting is poor.

A new, more attack minded manager will likely get more out of them or realise they shouldn’t always play together.

[Tyler Durden]

I think Newell and JDH are actually both really good players, maybe they are too similar or playing too safe, which could be down to instructions from Ross. Newell especially we have seen can get himself forward pretty effectively, although his shooting is poor.

A new, more attack minded manager will likely get more out of them or realise they shouldn’t always play together.

This is the nub of it.

People use stats when discussing Newell because it objectively refutes some of the nonsense accusations against him, like he can't tackle or he doesn't pass the ball forward. You only need to look at several of his performances against Rangers to see what he's capable of.

But absolutely, he's been playing within himself far too much. As could be said of many of the players in the last 2 months.

Let's get a new coach in who wants to press and play with intensity.

[Sammy7nil]

Stop turning Back and playing a Back pass but I'm sure that is down to the manager.

Or perhaps little to no options to pass the ball forward due to lack of movement?

[Smartie]

Or perhaps little to no options to pass the ball forward due to lack of movement?

FWIW I reckon this Hibs team improves immeasurably the moment Kevin Nisbet isn’t in it.

[Alfred E Newman]

FWIW I reckon this Hibs team improves immeasurably the moment Kevin Nisbet isn’t in it.
What a load of absolute nonsense.

[blackpoolhibs]

What a load of absolute nonsense.

He cant claim he's not getting chances, he just misses most of them, and he hardly looks like he's breaking his neck to help his team mates.

£3M quid for him is way over priced, i might be wrong but i cant see anyone paying that, and if we get anything like that offered, we should bite their hands off.

[hibbysam]

This is the nub of it.

People use stats when discussing Newell because it objectively refutes some of the nonsense accusations against him, like he can't tackle or he doesn't pass the ball forward. You only need to look at several of his performances against Rangers to see what he's capable of.

But absolutely, he's been playing within himself far too much. As could be said of many of the players in the last 2 months.

Let's get a new coach in who wants to press and play with intensity.

In a nutshell.

[IFONLY]

All he does is take corners. Hee haw else. Luxury player we can do without.


And he doesn't do that well either!!!!

[Posh Swanny]

I tear what's left of my hair out watching Newell...he's got a good touch on him and nice close control and can thread a pass but his first instinct seems to be ball retention and sideways/backwards passing, even in advanced areas.

Was he not a winger when we signed him?

He's left footed so everyone always assume he should be able to play on the left. He played there when he came through from the youth ranks at Posh but flattered to deceive. He moved inside after a year or two and got player of the season - a similar transformation to what we saw with Hibs. That said, he played out wide throughout his time at Rotherham, which included three full seasons in the Championship and a successful promotion from League One. Presumably goes to show how managerial tactics have a big impact on individual performances. Maybe the current Hibs defence is thinking the same!

[JimBHibees]

I don’t think both are bad players but the style the adopt on the park is toothless. That has to be coached into them.

I think it is the way they are coached to play nothing wrong with keeping possession however that needs to be mixed up with players further up the pitch showing for the ball and both midfielders looking for and prepared to play the pass forward. Newell in particular very rarely looks for the forward pass he also doesn't run beyond the ball and is reluctant to run with the ball forward even if he has space to do so. I think they are both good players but need to be a bit more forward thinking when on to do so.

[Diclonius]

Manager's out, let's get stuck into the players! Game on.

[B.H.F.C]

Manager's out, let's get stuck into the players! Game on.

They bloody deserve it for recent performances. They had no problem throwing Ross under the bus last night.

[wookie70]

Newell looks better when he is all over the park. He actually got forward quite a few times last night. His starting position is very deep though and I think he may be best in a SJM role marauding up and down the left of centre as he seems to have the energy to get up and down the park. He can beat a man too. We will never know if he is being asked to play deep alongside JDH or if he just feels more comfortable there. Plenty attributes to play 10-15 yards further up the park and to me that is the area of the pitch we have most issues in. When the CH gets the ball it is either a short pass, a hoof or a Porteous drilled pass to Nisbet that more times than not loses possession in a bad area. Having someone to collect the ball from the CHs around the half way line would make a difference to us as JDH and Newell often take it ten yards outside our box.

[HNA2]

Can we keep the personal digs off the boards please. We really dont want to spend our time deleting posts and firing off infractions. Ignore each other or agree to disagree. :aok:

[A Hi-Bee]

I think Newell and JDH are actually both really good players, maybe they are too similar or playing too safe, which could be down to instructions from Ross. Newell especially we have seen can get himself forward pretty effectively, although his shooting is poor.

A new, more attack minded manager will likely get more out of them or realise they shouldn’t always play together.

Omeonga and Holt bossed the middle of the park Omeonga with never say die energy and real heart yet he was not good enough for Hibs??????

[Steven79]

Omeonga and Holt bossed the middle of the park Omeonga with never say die energy and real heart yet he was not good enough for Hibs??????

He would run into our midfield at present unlike the snail pace of our other midfielders.

[ancient hibee]

They’re a poor pairing the way the team is set up. Lie too deep but provide no defensive cover(so little that the defence picked up 4 yellow cards in a desperate defensive display ) leading to far too many 1v 1 situations.

[Greenbeard]

McGeouch would always attempt to turn defence into attack
Naw he didnae

[The Spaceman]

I am convinced they have been instructed by Jack Ross to play the ball backwards and sideways. Genuinely think that was a huge part of his tactics and set up.

[MWHIBBIES]

Omeonga and Holt bossed the middle of the park Omeonga with never say die energy and real heart yet he was not good enough for Hibs??????

Omeonga commited about 8 fouls last night, could've been off easily. Should've been booked first half. I've seen Newall have dozens of better games than Omeonga did last night.

I thought he was a good player who could improve, but he would not fix our problems in there right now.

[1875Sean]

Omeonga commited about 8 fouls last night, could've been off easily. Should've been booked first half. I've seen Newall have dozens of better games than Omeonga did last night.

I thought he was a good player who could improve, but he would not fix our problems in there right now.

The same Omeonga that got man of the match?

[MWHIBBIES]

The same Omeonga that got man of the match?

The sponsors man of the match. Is that really so impressive? He probably was about the best player in a match of 22 very poor footballers. I've seen Newall have dozens of better games for Hibs, including in place of Omeonga when they were both here

[Smartie]

I could easily visualise a tidy Hibs team with both Newell and JDH in it. I've seen one a few times.

There needs to be a change to their roles - a bit more license to burst forward. The "third player" in midfield is absolutely critical. Magennis has made a black and white difference to how we look as a team - good with him in it, awful with him missing. It picked up for a bit there with Campbell but tbh I don't think he's the answer.

I also just think the whole team would benefit from having a striker who was better than an absolute waste of space, but that's not the argument here.

[1875Sean]

The sponsors man of the match. Is that really so impressive? He probably was about the best player in a match of 22 very poor footballers. I've seen Newall have dozens of better games for Hibs, including in place of Omeonga when they were both here

Wasn’t just the sponsors, bbc gave it to him too, he pretty much over ran our midfield

[hibsbollah]

Sideways and backwards passes would boost up his pass completion rate, but nothing else.

He has some of the best numbers in the squad for tackles per game, interceptions per game, dribbles per game, chances created, crosses and passes into box.

I feel his defensive contributions often get overlooked due to his body language and the way the way he just nicks the ball rather than charging in the way someone like Bartley or Gogic would, his numbers for winning the ball back are right up there with the best DMs in the league.

I also feel the common criticism of playing the ball backwards and sideways too often is a lazy complaint that stems from last season when he was more guilty of this. Most games this year I feel he's been more positive, trying to take players on more and play more forward passes into the final third - which again is backed up in his stats which show an improvement in chances created, crosses into box and dribbles per game.

Posters can get snide about stats all they like but they clearly paint a different picture from the player they've been watching and cut through the inherent bias that comes from trying to assess a player that you've previously decided to either like or not like.

:agree: Inconvenient truths.

[Brightside]

Newell is a show pony, his stats are good because all he does is sideways/backward 5 yard passes, very rarely goes forward. JDH is fairly similar but there's really only room for 1 deep midfielder and another reason Gogic is getting no game time right now. We're missing the energy and drive of Magennis, Campbell has done ok but he's nowhere near that level, decent squad player, Hallberg has also been a miss as an alternative. Right now we need 2-3 midfielders to add some variation, Tait comes in January so that's at least 1, 2 more needed.

JDH is the best young CDM in the country. People really need to be careful what they wish for.

[B.H.F.C]

JDH is the best young CDM in the country. People really need to be careful what they wish for.

He’s done nothing to warrant that. Bright start but no more. He looked like a lost wee laddie on Wednesday night.

[Callum_62]

Omeonga and Holt bossed the middle of the park Omeonga with never say die energy and real heart yet he was not good enough for Hibs??????Yes he wasn't, it's why he's now at Livingston

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[Callum_62]

He’s done nothing to warrant that. Bright start but no more. He looked like a lost wee laddie on Wednesday night.Youngish inexperienced player has poor game shock

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[B.H.F.C]

Youngish inexperienced player has poor game shock

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Aye that happens, I just can’t see what he’s done to be labelled as the best young player on his position in the country.

[houstonhibbee]

I am convinced they have been instructed by Jack Ross to play the ball backwards and sideways. Genuinely think that was a huge part of his tactics and set up.
I think they will have been instructed to retain possession. If they can’t see a forward pass then don’t hit a hopeful ball instead go sideways or back so we keep possession. Nothing wrong with that but the tempo needs to be quicker

[Danderhall Hibs]

JDH is the best young CDM in the country. People really need to be careful what they wish for.


He’s done nothing to warrant that. Bright start but no more. He looked like a lost wee laddie on Wednesday night.

I'm just wondering who else is on the list?

[JohnM1875]

I appreciate the role players like JDH play in a team. Drop deep and keep the ball moving etc. But that doesn't mean the ball always needs to go backwards or to the side.

He's obviously a very capable player. Just wish he'd (and Newell actually, though he's been better recently) turn on the ball and play it forwards occasionally.

[LeithMike]

JDH is the best young CDM in the country. People really need to be careful what they wish for.That's a fairly bold statement. Might have more credibility if you stated best prospect. Whatever the case, I suspect he's not going to become the best holding midfielder playing with Newell. They are too similar and there needs to be a better balance.

A big problem under Ross was our formation which regularly changed. Nisbet struggles up front on his own which means 4-3-3/4-5-1 doesn't really work. We don't have mobile enough midfielders for 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 probably doesn't suit Boyle any more. I still feel 3-5-2 suits us best but we miss a number 8. Otherwise, if we can play Doidge into form it would be interesting to see him as a lone striker but this would require more runners and goals from midfield. Again, something we've not really got.

PS I think Omeonga is a very decent number 8.

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[hibsbollah]

I'm just wondering who else is on the list?

There is literally only a handful of people in Scotland who could give you a well informed list of who the best young CDMs in Scotland are. Putting JDH at the top of that list, why not? Noone can disprove an opinion anyway:greengrin Personally i think he looks a very good player, far better than his limited experience suggested he would be. Ross McRorie must be in the conversation.

[B.H.F.C]

I'm just wondering who else is on the list?

Think the two at Hearts would have something to say about it for a start.

He’s been decent at times but I’d like to know what he’s done since she’s been here to merit the tag of best young player in his position?

[Brightside]

He’s done nothing to warrant that. Bright start but no more. He looked like a lost wee laddie on Wednesday night.

That’s my view. He’s been our best signing. Our whole team were lost on Wednesday night.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Think the two at Hearts would have something to say about it for a start.

He’s been decent at times but I’d like to know what he’s done since she’s been here to merit the tag of best young player in his position?

I don’t disagree - just have no idea who’s even in the conversation. And what is young?

[B.H.F.C]

I don’t disagree - just have no idea who’s even in the conversation. And what is young?

JDH is 23 this month, so is he even really particularly young?

[B.H.F.C]

That’s my view. He’s been our best signing. Our whole team were lost on Wednesday night.

Best signing of the window no doubt, but that’s not saying very much.

[J-C]

JDH is 23 this month, so is he even really particularly young?

Inexperience rather than young.

I wasnt comparing him to Newell, I think he's better just they're too similar to be in the same team, leaves us short on creativity and pace in the middle.

[Danderhall Hibs]

JDH is 23 this month, so is he even really particularly young?

Not for me - as soon as you're not a teenager you're not young anymore in football terms.

[Brightside]

JDH is 23 this month, so is he even really particularly young?

I’m using my own made up rule of anyone under 24. Also he has a baby face.

[JimBHibees]

I’m using my own made up rule of anyone under 24. Also he has a baby face.

My rule is anyone under 40 is young :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

I appreciate the role players like JDH play in a team. Drop deep and keep the ball moving etc. But that doesn't mean the ball always needs to go backwards or to the side.

He's obviously a very capable player. Just wish he'd (and Newell actually, though he's been better recently) turn on the ball and play it forwards occasionally.

Think a different coach would encourage that more also dependent in the movement in front of him me. No coincidence we played better when Campbell was in front of them on Wednesday