Is JR. a success or not?

[munchar]

It seems anytime you start a thread, people jump to conclusions & think your slaughtering the club. It’s great that we’re all so passionate & folk defending our club i also admire. But this is a forum where we all share our thoughts & opinions. With that in mind, these are my thoughts on the thread:

A manager will be judged on results, whether we see improvement or not in the playing style, some fans will vote with their feet. Attend if winning, stay away if losing. Results wise, JR has been a success. 3rd in the league, 2 semis & a final is fantastic. The downside, is that the 3 cup defeats were very painful. We should’ve been looking to win all 3 games, to lose every one of them was bitterly disappointing.
We started this season well, but a combination of injuries & individual & collective errors have seen us go on a terrible run of form. The bright side is we have a cup final to look forward to. We can’t under estimate the achievements in going so deep in these cups so often. 3rd place & cup finals, hopefully winning them, is realistically the best we can achieve.
Every manager will have their own style of play. You won’t please everyone. JR sets the team up to be hard to beat. This can come across as quite negative or as some would suggest, boring. I prefer watching a creative style of football. I don’t see why we can’t be solid & creative. JR always plays cautiously, as is his right. I hope we can pick up results once players like Doidge & Magennis are back 100% fit. I’d also like to see Scott Allan given the opportunity to play more often. He’s a joy to watch & a match winner. I always think somethings going to happen when he’s on the park. Unfortunately, it looks like JR doesn’t fancy him. Again, his prerogative. Hopefully we can pick up and have a good transfer window & push the club on. Summing up, JR a success, but would like to see him be a bit more creative & adventurous.

[greenlex]

So far ok but the report card reads “could do better”. Bit early to label but for me the signs are good. It’s a 8.5/10 for
last season but a 6.5 so far this one.

[Eyrie]

Ross' style of football isn't exactly entertaining, but he did very well for us last season (third, European qualification, one final and one semi) and we had a good start to this season spoilt by a few bad performances in the last couple of months.

On balance that makes him one of our more successful managers in relative, if not absolute, terms.

[Greencore]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"

[Weegreenman]

Third place and several finals. That’s success for this club. Winning a final would probably propel him upto the heady heights of being one of our most successful managers.

Look at all the circumstances, think about what a new manager would mean. We’ve been here many times before.

Let’s not be hasty!

[oldbutdim]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"

And so we appointed Terry Butcher as his replacement.

[BoomtownHibees]

And so we appointed Terry Butcher as his replacement.

Tony Mowbray

[Wakeyhibee]

And so we appointed Terry Butcher as his replacement.

Think you missed out 10 years and a league Cup trophy there.

[Ronniekirk]

He has done enough to get the next window to get us back on track if he can do that he will then get the summer to rebuild again


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[SMAXXA]

Refreshing to see some balance for a change

[Unseen work]

100% a success IMO.

First 3rd place finish in 16 years
3 semi finals
2 finals - one still to play

Brought through Josh Doig and now Josh Campbell
Signed Kevin Nisbet
Developed Boyle and Porteous to best form in career

All of whom will earn us a lot of money (not including Campbell as too early but looks promising).

Yes the current run of form is poor, but win our 2 games in hand and we’re joint 4th. The league is very very tight and a couple of games or run in form will see us climb it quickly. Doidge back will make a huge difference and the January signing will see us go for real quality after the disaster of the summer.

I have faith he’ll get us back up the league. I also have a weird feeling we’re beating Celtic on the 19th, call it blind optimism if you will.

[Steve20]

3rd last season was good.

I will never understand the argument that getting to semi finals and finals is success, if you lose them. Only if you win a cup, is it a success.

This season has been a shambles in the league. Look how far behind 3rd we are already.

If he doesn't win the cup final, then he really needs to buck his ideas up in the league. A finish outside the top 4 with no cup win at the end of the season and it should be cheerio.

[Yorkshire HFC]

He's got a contract - why not just consider this when the contract expires?

No wonder managers, players and owners have no time for fans (I don't believe any of the pr stuff they say on camera) when they see stuff like this on the internet.

Imagine if people at your work sent round an e-mail every day questioning your ability to do your job.

I've no idea or interest in his personal life, but in his professional life, ofcourse he is a success - he's one of the best in the country at it. That's why he's been employed by big clubs throughout his career.

And let's hope he can add League Cup winner to his CV in the near future.

[GreenCastle]

I mentioned this on other threads..

What would make this team less “boring” as many keep saying ?

The obvious answer is players that are creative and take risks.

Or is it a different formation?

If you ask many they couldn’t even tell you what formation we play regularly.

Or is it the style ? More forward direct passes ?

We have only ever scored 4 goals against Hamilton in the league - more often than not it’s 2 or 1 goal that wins us games. Maybe that’s a reflection of the improved league.

My biggest moan is the lack of output from those in the squad who aren’t playing - we have 7 or so players not contributing anything and we are relying on a small group who will burn out or get injuries unless we rotate in near future. But don’t think JR trusts the others.

[May21/05/16]

100% a success IMO.

First 3rd place finish in 16 years
3 semi finals
2 finals - one still to play

Brought through Josh Doig and now Josh Campbell
Signed Kevin Nisbet
Developed Boyle and Porteous to best form in career

All of whom will earn us a lot of money (not including Campbell as too early but looks promising).

Yes the current run of form is poor, but win our 2 games in hand and we’re joint 4th. The league is very very tight and a couple of games or run in form will see us climb it quickly. Doidge back will make a huge difference and the January signing will see us go for real quality after the disaster of the summer.

I have faith he’ll get us back up the league. I also have a weird feeling we’re beating Celtic on the 19th, call it blind optimism if you will.[emoji106][emoji1184][emoji1184][emoji1184]

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[StockholmHibs]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"

Seems like a lot of fans have listened to that advice.

[hibsbollah]

I mentioned this on other threads..

What would make this team less “boring” as many keep saying ?

The obvious answer is players that are creative and take risks.

Or is it a different formation?

If you ask many they couldn’t even tell you what formation we play regularly.

Or is it the style ? More forward direct passes ?

We have only ever scored 4 goals against Hamilton in the league - more often than not it’s 2 or 1 goal that wins us games. Maybe that’s a reflection of the improved league.

My biggest moan is the lack of output from those in the squad who aren’t playing - we have 7 or so players not contributing anything and we are relying on a small group who will burn out or get injuries unless we rotate in near future. But don’t think JR trusts the others.

I mentioned this on the other thread about 'entertainment', what do you mean by 'creative' football? Some people use it to mean tiki taka pass it to death style like Spain 2010, some people mean Blood N Thunder get it wide bang in lots of early crosses into the box and high energy, I suppose jambos fans might describe hammer throwing punts into the box as 'creative', in the sense that it creates something, mayhem in the box and goals:greengrin Most fans probably want to see attacking defensive football rather than defensive pragmatic football.

[madhatter]

I mentioned this on other threads..

What would make this team less “boring” as many keep saying ?

The obvious answer is players that are creative and take risks.

Or is it a different formation?

If you ask many they couldn’t even tell you what formation we play regularly.

Or is it the style ? More forward direct passes ?

We have only ever scored 4 goals against Hamilton in the league - more often than not it’s 2 or 1 goal that wins us games. Maybe that’s a reflection of the improved league.

My biggest moan is the lack of output from those in the squad who aren’t playing - we have 7 or so players not contributing anything and we are relying on a small group who will burn out or get injuries unless we rotate in near future. But don’t think JR trusts the others.

We played virtually the same team game in game out last season, even in the cups. We've perhaps had longer term injuries this year but depends how you look at it as Magennis was out for pretty much the whole season.

Our squad depth is poor, very poor actually but I also think we could setup differently to get more out of them. Gogic is perfect example, yet to see him sit and shield the CBs and be defensively solid like he was at Hamilton. Against Celtic he was roaming around the place. JDH and Newell are tidy players but really unsure how they work in there together, we lack a midfield presence when attacking and rely on 2-3 players when we get close to opponents box (not even in it yet). Take the weekend as an example, great ball by Campbell and great finish by Nisbet. Look at our player positions though, barely anyone looking to get forward. Goal out of nothing territory.

Towards the end of the 2nd half against Motherwell we honestly became a bit of a hoofball/long ball team. Slow unadventurous passing at the back followed by a long ball by Hanlon or Porteous.

I personally want to see the ball kept on the deck as much as possible and passes followed with movement forward. Excluding Boyle even our counterattacks are quite slow.

We put in a lot of crosses but don't have numbers in the box. Can't understand the point.

[easty]

3rd last season was good.

I will never understand the argument that getting to semi finals and finals is success, if you lose them. Only if you win a cup, is it a success.

This season has been a shambles in the league. Look how far behind 3rd we are already.

If he doesn't win the cup final, then he really needs to buck his ideas up in the league. A finish outside the top 4 with no cup win at the end of the season and it should be cheerio.

You can absolutely have a successful cup run without winning the cup.

Hypothetically, say we finished outside the top 4, but end up only a couple of points off 3rd, and we lose 2 cup finals, to Celtc and Rangers. You think Jack Ross should go in those circumstances?

[munchar]

I mentioned this on the other thread about 'entertainment', what do you mean by 'creative' football? Some people use it to mean tiki taka pass it to death style like Spain 2010, some people mean Blood N Thunder get it wide bang in lots of early crosses into the box and high energy, I suppose jambos fans might describe hammer throwing punts into the box as 'creative', in the sense that it creates something, mayhem in the box and goals:greengrin Most fans probably want to see attacking defensive football rather than defensive pragmatic football.

What I mean by creative is players, like Allan for example, who can produce that bit of quality to unlock defences & keep the opposition on the back foot. Our midfield seem full of industrious hard workers. When the ball is won in the middle of the park, it always seems to be a backwards pass. I’d like to see communication, telling midfielders to turn & drive forward with the ball. This would draw defenders out towards the ball & give an opportunity to have a strike at goal or find a through ball. To many of our passes are predictable. Into Nisbet with his back to goal our out wide to Boyle expecting him to take on defence on his own. With the way JR has us playing, it’s not free flowing. We’re lacking the quick intricate passing needed to hit teams fast when we win the ball. This is why our play may be classed as negative & boring.

[bigwheel]

You can absolutely have a successful cup run without winning the cup.

Hypothetically, say we finished outside the top 4, but end up only a couple of points off 3rd, and we lose 2 cup finals, to Celtc and Rangers. You think Jack Ross should go in those circumstances?

We have been so consistently in semi finals and finals in recent years , that a lot of fans now don’t seem to define this as a form of success …there have been periods in my supporters life when we rarely got near Hampden . I would have bitten your hands off for a semi final or two ..

[Since452]

People last season were up in arms about our semi final and final defeats and saying that they'd rather win a cup and be mid table than finish 3rd. It'll be very interesting to hear what the same people say if that happens this season. There is definitely an element of our support that he will never convince and it's been like that since the day he walked through the door.

His cup record is immense and his win record in total is probably up there with any of the best Hibs managers in our history. So it's a no from me :greengrin

[SlickShoes]

We should’ve been looking to win all 3 games, to lose every one of them was bitterly disappointing.


Do you think he set out in each of those games to try not to win?

[Pretty Boy]

I think success can only be judged when you define the parameters. Is it merely results on the park and trophies in the cabinet? Or do we look at other factors such as fan engagement and a side with an identity?

3rd place in the league is realistically the biggest success we can hope to achieve in that format so last season league wise was an unmitigated success imo. Yes there were a few horrible results and performances but we were consistent over the piece and comfortably 3rd. Aberdeen being poor, Hearts being out the league and so on is irrelevant. We beat what was in front of us.

In terms if the cups I think it's a bit trickier. On the face of it a semi final, a final and a semi final that was a legacy from a previous season is a good return. However I think you have to consider the position we found ourselves in. It was arguably our biggest chance in 5 decades or more to do something really exceptional and we finished the season trophyless. St Johnstone had broadly the same opportunity with comparably fewer resources at their disposable and walked away with a double. Should a Hibs manager be sacked or roundly criticised for not winning a double? Of course not. I would argue we should have done better from the position we were in though and our failures in the latter stages, particularly the cup final performance, is worthy of discussion. The Hearts game was a tough one to take, that was a poor side that struggled in several games in the league and was of course humiliated in a later cup tie. If I was to pick a point at which opinion on Ross started to really turn i think that would be it.

We started this season well and a fair few of the style issues that were bemoaned last season seemed to have been ironed out. Motherwell, Ross County etc were entertaining wins. Our cup form has remained consistent from last season and everyone enjoyed the win over Rangers in particular. If we win the LC then the hangover of last seasons late stage defeats should lift, it certainly deserves to. Our regression both from last season and the early part of this season has now moved beyond bad run and into a concerning situation. Yes we have had injuries and suspensions and Hibs have put all their eggs in one basket with the savaging of our summer transfer window. However some of the performances in the latest run were very poor. The last few games have seen improved performances but still a struggle to put meaningful points on the board. With a win, a draw and 6 defeats in our last 8 he needs to string results together and quickly or we are reaching the point of writing this season off in terms of the league. We have a hectic schedule ahead and it's where we really need to claw ourselves back in touch with the teams above us. Accepting all the previous mitigation around injury and so on, Ross should still be getting more form what is at his disposal.

More generally I think Ross has polarised opinion more than any other recent manager. Some have been almost universally unpopular, few have been universally popular but have avoided real criticism for much of their spell but Ross seems to fit neither of those groups. I still believe the real 'Ross out' sentiment is the preserve of a vocal minority, one that has likely grown over the last few weeks but still a minority. Equally I think the vociferous defence we see of Ross is also a very vocal minority. I would suggest there is a huge middle ground that is concerned about various factors but not at the point of calling for his head that is being drowned out by the cyclical nature of the arguments put forward by the extremes on the spectrum. Every argument seems to require exposition and a lot of exaggeration, particularly around the volume of people making a specific point.

I mentioned things like fan engagement and identity earlier and I'm not sure Ross has really nailed either. There seems a lot of apathy towards this team and the boos that greeted the final whistle on Saturday, undeserved given the 2nd half performance imo, were widespread and loud. Ross has been here a while now and I'm still not sure what style his team is really trying to adopt. We seem at our best when we can counter attack but I'm not sure I ever watch Hibs and say 'this is what Ross wants, he's got it'. Maybe the next 2 windows will find the missing pieces and it will all click.

That's a lot of words to say little more than 'I don't know'. I'm not calling for his head, I'm not bowled over by him, I'm not hopeful of us suddenly being a team capable of winning AND entertaining and I would probably just shrug my shoulders if he left tomorrow. Equally I know there is risk with any managerial change and we could end up with far worse. A success so far but a qualified one and it's a fluid situation is about the best conclusion I can come up with.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think success can only be judged when you define the parameters. Is it merely results on the park and trophies in the cabinet? Or do we look at other factors such as fan engagement and a side with an identity?

3rd place in the league is realistically the biggest success we can hope to achieve in that format so last season league wise was an unmitigated success imo. Yes there were a few horrible results and performances but we were consistent over the piece and comfortably 3rd. Aberdeen being poor, Hearts being out the league and so on is irrelevant. We beat what was in front of us.

In terms if the cups I think it's a bit trickier. On the face of it a semi final, a final and a semi final that was a legacy from a previous season is a good return. However I think you have to consider the position we found ourselves in. It was arguably our biggest chance in 5 decades or more to do something really exceptional and we finished the season trophyless. St Johnstone had broadly the same opportunity with comparably fewer resources at their disposable and walked away with a double. Should a Hibs manager be sacked or roundly criticised for not winning a double? Of course not. I would argue we should have done better from the position we were in though and our failures in the latter stages, particularly the cup final performance, is worthy of discussion. The Hearts game was a tough one to take, that was a poor side that struggled in several games in the league and was of course humiliated in a later cup tie. If I was to pick a point at which opinion on Ross started to really turn i think that would be it.

We started this season well and a fair few of the style issues that were bemoaned last season seemed to have been ironed out. Motherwell, Ross County etc were entertaining wins. Our cup form has remained consistent from last season and everyone enjoyed the win over Rangers in particular. If we win the LC then the hangover of last seasons late stage defeats should lift, it certainly deserves to. Our regression both from last season and the early part of this season has now moved beyond bad run and into a concerning situation. Yes we have had injuries and suspensions and Hibs have put all their eggs in one basket with the savaging of our summer transfer window. However some of the performances in the latest run were very poor. The last few games have seen improved performances but still a struggle to put meaningful points on the board. With a win, a draw and 6 defeats in our last 8 he needs to string results together and quickly or we are reaching the point of writing this season off in terms of the league. We have a hectic schedule ahead and it's where we really need to claw ourselves back in touch with the teams above us. Accepting all the previous mitigation around injury and so on, Ross should still be getting more form what is at his disposal.

More generally I think Ross has polarised opinion more than any other recent manager. Some have been almost universally unpopular, few have been universally popular but have avoided real criticism for much of their spell but Ross seems to fit neither of those groups. I still believe the real 'Ross out' sentiment is the preserve of a vocal minority, one that has likely grown over the last few weeks but still a minority. Equally I think the vociferous defence we see of Ross is also a very vocal minority. I would suggest there is a huge middle ground that is concerned about various factors but not at the point of calling for his head that is being drowned out by the cyclical nature of the arguments put forward by the extremes on the spectrum. Every argument seems to require exposition and a lot of exaggeration, particularly around the volume of people making a specific point.

I mentioned things like fan engagement and identity earlier and I'm not sure Ross has really nailed either. There seems a lot of apathy towards this team and the boos that greeted the final whistle on Saturday, undeserved given the 2nd half performance imo, were widespread and loud. Ross has been here a while now and I'm still not sure what style his team is really trying to adopt. We seem at our best when we can counter attack but I'm not sure I ever watch Hibs and say 'this is what Ross wants, he's got it'. Maybe the next 2 windows will find the missing pieces and it will all click.

That's a lot of words to say little more than 'I don't know'. I'm not calling for his head, I'm not bowled over by him, I'm not hopeful of us suddenly being a team capable of winning AND entertaining and I would probably just shrug my shoulders if he left tomorrow. Equally I know there is risk with any managerial change and we could end up with far worse. A success so far but a qualified one and it's a fluid situation is about the best conclusion I can come up with.

Aye as you’ve illustrated it’s not just as black and white as some are saying.

[munchar]

Do you think he set out in each of those games to try not to win?

That’s the first stupid answer on this thread.
We obviously weren’t good enough or we would’ve won the games.

[easty]

That’s the first stupid answer on this thread.
We obviously weren’t good enough or we would’ve won the games.

That's not how football works.

[Slim Shady]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"

Sadly - it looks like supporters will just do that going by Saturdays poor attendance.

This included 1500 free tickets issued to the NHS.

The cost of attending matches has increased dramatically, not just the ticket price. Travel, food, drink.

If the entertainment value is no longer there - we will lose regular fans.

I know of numerous ST holders who decided not to attend on Saturday.

[The 90+2]

In comparison with a lot of previous managers for me, yes.

I’ve generally got an underlying feeling he could and should have been more successful given the opportunities that opened up for us since he’s been here. The cup final is another one.

[munchar]

That's not how football works.

What’s your views on why we lost the games then?
All 3 games we would’ve been confident off winning. So to lose all of them, there must be a reason?

[Diclonius]

Ask me again a week on Sunday.

[worcesterhibby]

Too many people watch EPL, Spanish and Italian football all week and then go to ER expecting similar levels of skill and entertainment. Jack Ross is a success by any normal standard set for Hibs managers, but these days fans want a standard that I think is probably unachievable. Coming third some years, consistently reaching top 6 and getting to Hampden regularly is all we can really expect with our spending power. However it feels like the loud minority want Man City/ Liverpool style performances and cup wins every year.

[The Modfather]

Too many people watch EPL, Spanish and Italian football all week and then go to ER expecting similar levels of skill and entertainment. Jack Ross is a success by any normal standard set for Hibs managers, but these days fans want a standard that I think is probably unachievable. Coming third some years, consistently reaching top 6 and getting to Hampden regularly is all we can really expect with our spending power. However it feels like the loud minority want Man City/ Liverpool style performances and cup wins every year.

I’m not sure that’s accurate or fair. Hibs managers before Ross have managed good football that the wider support bought into. Mowbray, an all to brief period under Collins, Stubbs, 6 months under Lennon. Not sure where you’re reading folk asking for “Man City/Liverpool style performances and cup wine every year”. Sounds more like hyperbole.

[bigwheel]

Too many people watch EPL, Spanish and Italian football all week and then go to ER expecting similar levels of skill and entertainment. Jack Ross is a success by any normal standard set for Hibs managers, but these days fans want a standard that I think is probably unachievable. Coming third some years, consistently reaching top 6 and getting to Hampden regularly is all we can really expect with our spending power. However it feels like the loud minority want Man City/ Liverpool style performances and cup wins every year.

Not quite your point (I know) but I struggle these days to watch much EPL football …it seems too sanitised… much prefer to watch an SPFL game …..

[jeffers]

Too many people watch EPL, Spanish and Italian football all week and then go to ER expecting similar levels of skill and entertainment. Jack Ross is a success by any normal standard set for Hibs managers, but these days fans want a standard that I think is probably unachievable. Coming third some years, consistently reaching top 6 and getting to Hampden regularly is all we can really expect with our spending power. However it feels like the loud minority want Man City/ Liverpool style performances and cup wins every year.


Totally disagree. The first half performance against Ross County is what I’d like to see on a regular basis. Like others I thought we’d seen a change in style from Ross at the start of the season, but it’s reverted back to a more pragmatic, less entertaining offering.

[Jones28]

Everyone has different standards of success. I feel last season was successful: 3rd place finish, 3 semi-finals and a cup final is about as good as we can expect - to put it in to context I would have ben our most successful season since the 70's if we'd won the Scottish Cup. As it is I'd have given last season an 8/10. Others will have give it less because of the cup final and thats fair enough.

This season we started very well, played some great football and are in a cup final. It's been awful luck that 2 of our key players have been injured, as well as guys like McKay and Murphy. It doesn't need said again that the summer transfer window has cost us dearly, the club have taken action on that. I think we've had a **** run, there's no denying it or glossing over it. I do think we are getting back to pre-crap run levels again, and in the game at the weekend the rub of the green didn't quite fall our way like you need it to to break these bad spells. We're in a cup final though. Massive plus point for that and the semi final performance that got us there. We have a good opportunity now to rack points up before the final and re-discover a bit of form. So far this season I'm giving a 6.5/10, the summer transfer window and the bad run of results being the big mark downs.

[B.H.F.C]

Totally disagree. The first half performance against Ross County is what I’d like to see on a regular basis. Like others I thought we’d seen a change in style from Ross at the start of the season, but it’s reverted back to a more pragmatic, less entertaining offering.

Like you, I was encouraged at the start of the season.

However, I feel JR has reverted to using players that he feels safe with and I think a look at the five who have been starting across the middle since we returned from the break shows where our problems lie.

Cadden, 12 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.
JDH, 20 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists.
Campbell, 10 appearances, 0 goals, 2 assists.
Newell, 19 appearances, 1 goal, 3 assists.
Doig, 17 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.

There has been a lot of chat about the lack of attacking options but, now we have some available, there doesn’t appear to be any great degree of urgency to use them (even when they’ve come on and made an impact).

As regards success, I don’t think it’s always as black and white as reaching a certain stage to be deemed successful. If you compare last seasons league cup campaign to this one for instance. Last year we didn’t face a Premiership team until the semi final and when we did face one, we lost 3-0. That isn’t a successful cup run to me. This year, we won a difficult away tie in the quarter final and then pumped Rangers at Hampden in the semi final. Getting to the stage of the competition we have, in those circumstances, merits praise even if the ultimate achievement only comes from going on to win the thing.

[jeffers]

Like you, I was encouraged at the start of the season.

However, I feel JR has reverted to using players that he feels safe with and I think a look at the five who have been starting across the middle since we returned from the break shows where our problems lie.

Cadden, 12 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.
JDH, 20 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists.
Campbell, 10 appearances, 0 goals, 2 assists.
Newell, 19 appearances, 1 goal, 3 assists.
Doig, 17 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.

There has been a lot of chat about the lack of attacking options but, now we have some available, there doesn’t appear to be any great degree of urgency to use them (even when they’ve come on and made an impact).

As regards success, I don’t think it’s always as black and white as reaching a certain stage to be deemed successful. If you compare last seasons league cup campaign to this one for instance. Last year we didn’t face a Premiership team until the semi final and when we did face one, we lost 3-0. That isn’t a successful cup run to me. This year, we won a difficult away tie in the quarter final and then pumped Rangers at Hampden in the semi final. Getting to the stage of the competition we have, in those circumstances, merits praise even if the ultimate achievement only comes from going on to win the thing.

Totally agree and the stats for those players are pretty damning. I wouldn’t want to see it, but there may be a bit more of an argument if those players weren’t contributing in an attacking sense if it meant we kept clean sheets, however that’s not happening either.

The Allan stuff has been done to death, but I wonder if Tait will be his replacement (not seen him at all so could be way off with that one) or if we will bring another in. Magennis gives us more of a goal scoring threat, but he’s not due back any time soon from what I’ve heard.

Also agree regarding the cup runs. You can only beat the teams you are drawn against but it’s hard to argue we had much easier ties in last season’s LC, compared to this.

[Weegreenman]

We have been so consistently in semi finals and finals in recent years , that a lot of fans now don’t seem to define this as a form of success …there have been periods in my supporters life when we rarely got near Hampden . I would have bitten your hands off for a semi final or two ..

100% this 👏👏👏

[eastterrace]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"
That’s the problem people are going elsewhere to entertained instead of watching slow boring football.

[Since452]

That’s the problem people are going elsewhere to entertained instead of watching slow boring football.

If we were sitting top of the league right now i don't think crowds would be too much different.

[JimBHibees]

If we were sitting top of the league right now i don't think crowds would be too much different.

A huge thing rarely discussed is season ticket holders being able to watch the game live in their house. Bound to have a significant effect on freezing days like Saturday. Is that for the whole season?

[Not In The Know]

I mentioned this on other threads..

What would make this team less “boring” as many keep saying ?

The obvious answer is players that are creative and take risks.

Or is it a different formation?

If you ask many they couldn’t even tell you what formation we play regularly.

Or is it the style ? More forward direct passes ?

We have only ever scored 4 goals against Hamilton in the league - more often than not it’s 2 or 1 goal that wins us games. Maybe that’s a reflection of the improved league.

My biggest moan is the lack of output from those in the squad who aren’t playing - we have 7 or so players not contributing anything and we are relying on a small group who will burn out or get injuries unless we rotate in near future. But don’t think JR trusts the others.

Great post. I struggle to see what folk mean when they moan about the style of play (they prob spend all week watching the english prem and thats almost a different sport these days). Its not swashbuckling thats for sure but its better than the guff Aberdeen fans had to endure under McInnes that got them results consistently. Lets be honest we dont have the budget to attract players that play swashbuckling footy and still win games.

IMHO he's not far off getting the balance right. He's got a very average squad to work with and was good enough to turn it round from the Heckingbottom mess.

We have two massive transfer windows coming up that will give us a true indication of everyones ability and ambition at the club.

[Not In The Know]

I’m not sure that’s accurate or fair. Hibs managers before Ross have managed good football that the wider support bought into. Mowbray, an all to brief period under Collins, Stubbs, 6 months under Lennon. Not sure where you’re reading folk asking for “Man City/Liverpool style performances and cup wine every year”. Sounds more like hyperbole.


Thing is Mowbray had the golden gen and won nothing. Stubbs was a SDG moment away from the boot, Collins lasted just over a year. Lennon had us playing well for 6 months - thats no claim to fame.

Ross with time, is giving us a solid platform to build from on and off the pitch. 4-5 years worth of top 4 finishing is his remit. That will hopefully stop the shocking seasonal form fluctuations we've had over the years.

[J-C]

Season started with us playing 4231 with Murphy, Magennis and Boyle behind Nisbet, it was a fairly attacking set up almost a 424 at times. Due to injuries and a poor summer window he's reverted back to 352 and keeping things tight. A good 3rd and coup runs( although disappointing results in them) made it a decent season but the entertainment value wasn't great. He needs to have a good window if Ron gives him that but a loss against Celtic and Hearts might force Ron's hand, so far this season it's a 6 out of 10.

[munchar]

Thing is Mowbray had the golden gen and won nothing. Stubbs was a SDG moment away from the boot, Collins lasted just over a year. Lennon had us playing well for 6 months - thats no claim to fame.

Ross with time, is giving us a solid platform to build from on and off the pitch. 4-5 years worth of top 4 finishing is his remit. That will hopefully stop the shocking seasonal form fluctuations we've had over the years.

I think when we watched the Stubbs & Lennon teams, we went to these games buzzing, as we expected to win most weeks & they played with passion & entertained us.
We’re maybe in transition just now, but some fans won’t pay to watch while we have no identity to our style of play & turn up hoping to win. That’s every persons personal choice. Thousands of us will still follow home & away however good, bad or indifferent the team plays. We still have to be positive. Looks like RG means business. Wants us to be successful EVERY year. Hopefully these days aren’t to far off.

[allmodcons]

100% a success IMO.

First 3rd place finish in 16 years
3 semi finals
2 finals - one still to play

Brought through Josh Doig and now Josh Campbell
Signed Kevin Nisbet
Developed Boyle and Porteous to best form in career

All of whom will earn us a lot of money (not including Campbell as too early but looks promising).

Yes the current run of form is poor, but win our 2 games in hand and we’re joint 4th. The league is very very tight and a couple of games or run in form will see us climb it quickly. Doidge back will make a huge difference and the January signing will see us go for real quality after the disaster of the summer.

I have faith he’ll get us back up the league. I also have a weird feeling we’re beating Celtic on the 19th, call it blind optimism if you will.

Agree with this 100%.

Also, if anybody thinks the last 3 goals we've scored defines a boring style of play then I'm all for it. The passing movements and finishes were superb.

I appreciate we've been on a poor run of form in the league but just think some need to get a perspective.

[RossScott1991]

Like you, I was encouraged at the start of the season.

However, I feel JR has reverted to using players that he feels safe with and I think a look at the five who have been starting across the middle since we returned from the break shows where our problems lie.

Cadden, 12 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.
JDH, 20 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists.
Campbell, 10 appearances, 0 goals, 2 assists.
Newell, 19 appearances, 1 goal, 3 assists.
Doig, 17 appearances, 0 goals, 1 assist.

There has been a lot of chat about the lack of attacking options but, now we have some available, there doesn’t appear to be any great degree of urgency to use them (even when they’ve come on and made an impact).

As regards success, I don’t think it’s always as black and white as reaching a certain stage to be deemed successful. If you compare last seasons league cup campaign to this one for instance. Last year we didn’t face a Premiership team until the semi final and when we did face one, we lost 3-0. That isn’t a successful cup run to me. This year, we won a difficult away tie in the quarter final and then pumped Rangers at Hampden in the semi final. Getting to the stage of the competition we have, in those circumstances, merits praise even if the ultimate achievement only comes from going on to win the thing.

Think this is spot on. I was quite excited at the start of the season. I can make 3 games that were entertaining and we had positive lineups in

Motherwell away
Dundee away
Ross county at home

All featured our attacking players in Murphy, Boyle, Doidge and Nisbet. With also a fit Magennis. It was looking promising.

Injuries have played their part which made him change and put heavy reliance on guys like Cadden, Newell and JDH playing every week. I’m really hoping the handbrake comes off abit with folk returning from injury. But this is where I think Jack Ross let’s himself down. The mindset is to play the team that won the semi final every week. A team he feels gives him the best chance not to lose a game whilst relying on the same subs every week.

It must be quite disheartening that with all these games coming up normally you’d have a squad of players all fighting to get in the cup final team. But we already know the team he started with in the semi and again at the weekend is the cup final team. So it almost doesn’t matter how well you perform from the bench in the run up to it

[Fergus52]

3rd last season was good.

I will never understand the argument that getting to semi finals and finals is success, if you lose them. Only if you win a cup, is it a success.

This season has been a shambles in the league. Look how far behind 3rd we are already.

If he doesn't win the cup final, then he really needs to buck his ideas up in the league. A finish outside the top 4 with no cup win at the end of the season and it should be cheerio.

Might not be a "success" as such, but it is much much better than being dumped out in the round of 16, both financially and for the fans.

[Fergus52]

I think when we watched the Stubbs & Lennon teams, we went to these games buzzing, as we expected to win most weeks & they played with passion & entertained us.
We’re maybe in transition just now, but some fans won’t pay to watch while we have no identity to our style of play & turn up hoping to win. That’s every persons personal choice. Thousands of us will still follow home & away however good, bad or indifferent the team plays. We still have to be positive. Looks like RG means business. Wants us to be successful EVERY year. Hopefully these days aren’t to far off.

Understand your point but Ross has a better win rate than Lennon, and that's including Lennon's season as favourites in a weak championship.

[hibeerealist]

If we were sitting top of the league right now i don't think crowds would be too much different.


Dodgy comment that one. Can I ask do you mean top of the league playing as we are?

If so, no chance we would be top. Crowds have been MUCH better than they are presently and we were not top of the league then so whats your point?

Just a go at the fans as far as I can see

[munchar]

Understand your point but Ross has a better win rate than Lennon, and that's including Lennon's season as favourites in a weak championship.

Didn’t know they stats That’s impressive 👏
Think it’s just the feel good factor when Stubbs & Lennon there. Played attractive football & the way they spoke about the game made you believe in them. Certainly with Lennon, we’d play the big sides & he had you believing you’d win these games. That gave you the buzz on game day. A lot of fans haven’t got that this season.

[GreenCastle]

I posted this on another thread..about getting best from squad..

Last few games Scott Allan has played...

8 mins - Motherwell
4 mins - Rangers
20 mins - St J - which we won and he made the difference
15 mins - Ross County
30 mins - Aberdeen

We also have the issue of other players hardly contributing to the team..

Gullan - around 150 mins of league football
Wright - 58 mins of league football
Hallberg - 0 mins
Mackie - 0 mins
Gogic - around 180 mins of league football
Mackay - 27 mins of league football
James Scott - rarely involved
Nathan Wood - loan cut short

7 players we aren’t getting anything from at all in the squad.

Obviously Hallberg, McKay and Mackie been injured and Magennis hasn’t lost a league game when he played and is also injured following a long previous injury.

We also have an issue of lack of goals / assists from midfield - except Boyle out wide / up front.

Overall shows we are carrying passengers and players who aren’t offering competition for places let alone anything to the performance or outcome of the result.

We need to freshen the squad up and January and summer. We NEED changes or we will get worse. We have to be ruthless and get rid of deadwood who aren’t bringing anything to the team.

1-0 never seems to be enough with this team and it’s very rare if we lose the 1st goal we come back to win.

Teams can pretty much predict our personnel and formation. Consistency can be good but it allow means players get comfortable and don’t push each other on enough as they know they won’t be dropped.

[MWHIBBIES]

I posted this on another thread..about getting best from squad..

Last few games Scott Allan has played...

8 mins - Motherwell
4 mins - Rangers
20 mins - St J - which we won and he made the difference
15 mins - Ross County
30 mins - Aberdeen

We also have the issue of other players hardly contributing to the team..

Gullan - around 150 mins of league football
Wright - 58 mins of league football
Hallberg - 0 mins
Mackie - 0 mins
Gogic - around 180 mins of league football
Mackay - 27 mins of league football
James Scott - rarely involved
Nathan Wood - loan cut short

7 players we aren’t getting anything from at all in the squad.

Obviously Hallberg, McKay and Mackie been injured and Magennis hasn’t lost a league game when he played and is also injured following a long previous injury.

We also have an issue of lack of goals / assists from midfield - except Boyle out wide / up front.

Overall shows we are carrying passengers and players who aren’t offering competition for places let alone anything to the performance or outcome of the result.

We need to freshen the squad up and January and summer. We NEED changes or we will get worse. We have to be ruthless and get rid of deadwood who aren’t bringing anything to the team.

1-0 never seems to be enough with this team and it’s very rare if we lose the 1st goal we come back to win.

Teams can pretty much predict our personnel and formation. Consistency can be good but it allow means players get comfortable and don’t push each other on enough as they know they won’t be dropped.

Its very rare for anyone to come back after losing the first goal.

We've got 8 points after going behind this season. Thats very good.

[Hibernian Verse]

Didn’t know they stats That’s impressive 👏
Think it’s just the feel good factor when Stubbs & Lennon there. Played attractive football & the way they spoke about the game made you believe in them. Certainly with Lennon, we’d play the big sides & he had you believing you’d win these games. That gave you the buzz on game day. A lot of fans haven’t got that this season.

My lasting memory of Lennon is a freezing cold night at Fir Park. We were on a dreadful run IIRC, playing ***** football and not knowing when we would see the next win. I still remember the best part of the evening being a mouthy Motherwell ned getting sparked out on the pavement, it certainly wasn't the attractive football that became utterly dire at the tail end of his tenure.

[He's here!]

He deserves a lot of credit for his consistency in the cups, never failing to reach at least the semi-finals. Until very recently he also deserves credit for the number of wins he's racked up in all competitions. The current run of grim league form is the first time he's not been able to arrest a mini-slump. Prior to that a bad result or two were quickly rectified.

Part of me likes the fact he appears pretty unflappable. A thinking man's manager. However, there are times when I feel that this plays a part in the lack of real character to his teams. His reaction (or lack of it) to a truly dismal cup final performance against St Johnstone still rankles.

Overall I think he's done a good job and I remain hopeful he can continue to build something that will ultimately get the fans behind him for the most part. A cup win would go a long way towards doing that.

[Brightside]

Didn’t know they stats That’s impressive 👏
Think it’s just the feel good factor when Stubbs & Lennon there. Played attractive football & the way they spoke about the game made you believe in them. Certainly with Lennon, we’d play the big sides & he had you believing you’d win these games. That gave you the buzz on game day. A lot of fans haven’t got that this season.

People’s memories are playing tricks on them. There was a large amount t of poor football on display under Lennon. Jack Ross is maybe just a little bit too laid back for some of our fans. Bring back tobacco chewing aeroplanes to get the crowds in.

[munchar]

My lasting memory of Lennon is a freezing cold night at Fir Park. We were on a dreadful run IIRC, playing ***** football and not knowing when we would see the next win. I still remember the best part of the evening being a mouthy Motherwell ned getting sparked out on the pavement, it certainly wasn't the attractive football that became utterly dire at the tail end of his tenure.

Lennon left under a cloud. Still don’t know what happened there, but there was a lot off unrest around the club at the time. Still loved his attitude. He demanded the best from the players, expecting to beat anyone put in front of us. As previously said by posters, maybe expecting average players to play consistently at a higher level was unrealistic, but still loved the way he wanted them to compete with the best.

[Hibernian Verse]

Lennon left under a cloud. Still don’t know what happened there, but there was a lot off unrest around the club at the time. Still loved his attitude. He demanded the best from the players, expecting to beat anyone put in front of us. As previously said by posters, maybe expecting average players to play consistently at a higher level was unrealistic, but still loved the way he wanted them to compete with the best.

If I started asking the sales team at my work to hit unrealistic targets I'd quickly lose the office and have a demotivated team.

Knowing the limits of your staff, in this case players, is part of man management - it doesn't make you a "winner". Look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie (and now with Scotland), didn't see him hanging players out to dry in the press.

[Not In The Know]

I posted this on another thread..about getting best from squad..

Last few games Scott Allan has played...

8 mins - Motherwell
4 mins - Rangers
20 mins - St J - which we won and he made the difference
15 mins - Ross County
30 mins - Aberdeen

We also have the issue of other players hardly contributing to the team..

Gullan - around 150 mins of league football
Wright - 58 mins of league football
Hallberg - 0 mins
Mackie - 0 mins
Gogic - around 180 mins of league football
Mackay - 27 mins of league football
James Scott - rarely involved
Nathan Wood - loan cut short

7 players we aren’t getting anything from at all in the squad.

Obviously Hallberg, McKay and Mackie been injured and Magennis hasn’t lost a league game when he played and is also injured following a long previous injury.

We also have an issue of lack of goals / assists from midfield - except Boyle out wide / up front.

Overall shows we are carrying passengers and players who aren’t offering competition for places let alone anything to the performance or outcome of the result.

We need to freshen the squad up and January and summer. We NEED changes or we will get worse. We have to be ruthless and get rid of deadwood who aren’t bringing anything to the team.

1-0 never seems to be enough with this team and it’s very rare if we lose the 1st goal we come back to win.

Teams can pretty much predict our personnel and formation. Consistency can be good but it allow means players get comfortable and don’t push each other on enough as they know they won’t be dropped.

When you see that i dont think you can say Ross has done badly. hes basically working with Lennons team. Recruitment has been 4/10 at best the last 4 windows and RG has attempted to sort that...

[Since452]

I think when we watched the Stubbs & Lennon teams, we went to these games buzzing, as we expected to win most weeks & they played with passion & entertained us.
We’re maybe in transition just now, but some fans won’t pay to watch while we have no identity to our style of play & turn up hoping to win. That’s every persons personal choice. Thousands of us will still follow home & away however good, bad or indifferent the team plays. We still have to be positive. Looks like RG means business. Wants us to be successful EVERY year. Hopefully these days aren’t to far off.

To be fair, Stubbs was up against joiners and posties most weeks and made very hard work of it. Two very good cup runs to be fair to him but like the previous poster said he was an injury time winner from getting his jotters. For as good as we were under Lennon after the winter break, we were as bad the following season. And even in the post split games we completely bottled a brilliant chance of 2nd at Pittodrie and Tynecastle and ended up "celebrating" a 5-5 draw after having the game won at 3-0.

[bigwheel]

To be fair, Stubbs was up against joiners and posties most weeks and made very hard work of it. Two very good cup runs to be fair to him but like the previous poster said he was an injury time winner from getting his jotters. For as good as we were under Lennon after the winter break, we were as bad the following season. And even in the post split games we completely bottled a brilliant chance of 2nd and Pittodrie and Tynecastle and ended up "celebrating" a 5-5 draw after having the game won at 3-0.

A minor point on this thread - but Why do people keep repeating the untrue suggestion that Stubbs was getting sacked if we lost the cup final - Dempster has said publicly on more than one occasion that was definitely not going to happen

PS the posties etc point is not true

[MWHIBBIES]

To be fair, Stubbs was up against joiners and posties most weeks and made very hard work of it. Two very good cup runs to be fair to him but like the previous poster said he was an injury time winner from getting his jotters. For as good as we were under Lennon after the winter break, we were as bad the following season. And even in the post split games we completely bottled a brilliant chance of 2nd and Pittodrie and Tynecastle and ended up "celebrating" a 5-5 draw after having the game won at 3-0.

Thats completely untrue. Stubbs done an excellent job at Hibs with what he inherited. One of our best ever appointments. He made Hibs worth watching again.

[munchar]

If I started asking the sales team at my work to hit unrealistic targets I'd quickly lose the office and have a demotivated team.

Knowing the limits of your staff, in this case players, is part of man management - it doesn't make you a "winner". Look at what Steve Clarke did with Killie (and now with Scotland), didn't see him hanging players out to dry in the press.

Still like the way he’d demand over achievement. Nobody can say he didn’t try to get the best out of his players, even if he did go about it the wrong way sometimes.
Was at the Hanlon & Stevenson Q&A. They both said Stubbs & Lennon we’re good for them, although totally different. Lewis said, “when he was losing the plot you’d keep, your eyes 👀 on the floor” Said he’d then tell them they couldn’t look him in the eye. Next rant he’d look at Lennon, & he’d say, “what the ***** are you looking at?” You couldn’t win 😂

[matty_f]

People’s memories are playing tricks on them. There was a large amount t of poor football on display under Lennon. Jack Ross is maybe just a little bit too laid back for some of our fans. Bring back tobacco chewing aeroplanes to get the crowds in.

We had some brilliant times under Lennon but some truly awful ones as well. Did we not get knocked out a cup 0-4 to Queen of the South under Lennon at Easter Road? And who could forget his line up made up of every centre half at the club away to Killie, where we lost 3-0?!

Jack Ross gets pelters for not beating Premiership teams, but there’s a long list of Championship sides that Lennon dropped points to.

[JimBHibees]

We had some brilliant times under Lennon but some truly awful ones as well. Did we not get knocked out a cup 0-4 to Queen of the South under Lennon at Easter Road? And who could forget his line up made up of every centre half at the club away to Killie, where we lost 3-0?!

Jack Ross gets pelters for not beating Premiership teams, but there’s a long list of Championship sides that Lennon dropped points to.

Think Queens was a 3 1 home defeat first cup tie since cup win.

[JimBHibees]

Still like the way he’d demand over achievement. Nobody can say he didn’t try to get the best out of his players, even if he did go about it the wrong way sometimes.
Was at the Hanlon & Stevenson Q&A. They both said Stubbs & Lennon we’re good for them, although totally different. Lewis said, “when he was losing the plot you’d keep, your eyes 👀 on the floor” Said he’d then tell them they couldn’t look him in the eye. Next rant he’d look at Lennon, & he’d say, “what the ***** are you looking at?” You couldn’t win 😂

Brilliant Lewis :greengrin

[matty_f]

Think Queens was a 3 1 home defeat first cup tie since cup win.

Think you’re right. Tried to erase it from memory but i knew it was bad and there were four goals involved!

[B.H.F.C]

People’s memories are playing tricks on them. There was a large amount t of poor football on display under Lennon. Jack Ross is maybe just a little bit too laid back for some of our fans. Bring back tobacco chewing aeroplanes to get the crowds in.

It obviously worked because it did actually get the crowds in.

[JimBHibees]

Think you’re right. Tried to erase it from memory but i knew it was bad and there were four goals involved!

Yep poor think Lyndon Dykes scored

[greenlex]

It obviously worked because it did actually get the crowds in.
Immediate bounce from winning the cup and skooshing the championship more than what was being served up on the park.

[Keith_M]

Lennon left under a cloud. Still don’t know what happened there, but there was a lot off unrest around the club at the time. Still loved his attitude. He demanded the best from the players, expecting to beat anyone put in front of us. As previously said by posters, maybe expecting average players to play consistently at a higher level was unrealistic, but still loved the way he wanted them to compete with the best.


I was at Kilmarnock when Lennon fielded something like six defenders and we got absolutely humped. I was also at the game where we beat Cetlc 2-0, in the middle of a long run of games where we seemed incapable of beating anybody else.

The previous season had ended with a game that everybody remembers because we had to beat Rangers by 5 goals to qualify for Europe and it ended 5-5. I did enjoy that game, but I also remember that the reason we had to win by 5 goals was because we'd just completely capitulated to a poor Hearts side at Tynecastle, after which Lennon publicly slated his players.

There was good and bad, excitement and bewilderment when Lennon was in charge. There was also just plain boring, when we failed to win a league game for a whole two months.

[MWHIBBIES]

It obviously worked because it did actually get the crowds in.

Could've put any idiot in charge after that cup win and crowds would've been there.

[J-C]

A minor point on this thread - but Why do people keep repeating the untrue suggestion that Stubbs was getting sacked if we lost the cup final - Dempster has said publicly on more than one occasion that was definitely not going to happen

PS the posties etc point is not true

Correct, Stubbs was leaving due to external personal reasons and to be closer to his family, Rotherham were the only team at the time looking for a manager.

[Pretty Boy]

Thats completely untrue. Stubbs done an excellent job at Hibs with what he inherited. One of our best ever appointments. He made Hibs worth watching again.

Definitely.

Stubbs and his achievements are criminally underrated by some. I've even heard claim he was lucky to inherit such a shambles because it meant he could start from scratch. I think he was just a good fit for the structure we had at the time, I wouldn't go back now and there were disappointments of course but he left us in far better shape than he found us. Yes, we ran out of steam in the 2016 season but our schedule was absolutely crazy. The way we boucned back from devastating losses to Ross County and Falkirk to secure huge victories in the next games was the mark of him and the team he helped build.

[B.H.F.C]

Immediate bounce from winning the cup and skooshing the championship more than what was being served up on the park.

Crowds being there is one thing but the atmosphere and buzz about the place was down to what we were watching on the park. Sunshine on Leith belting out against Hearts, beating Celtic. 5-5 against Rangers was bonkers but there was a point when it went 3-0 when it was as loud as I’ve ever heard the place. Even had the mad 5-3 game v Killie a couple of weeks prior.

Not going down the whole ‘Lennon was so much better than Ross’ route, but the atmosphere created in 17/18 was down to what was happening at the time. As we’re finding out now, selling the tickets is one thing, folk using them is different.

[Hibiza]

Seems like a lot of fans have listened to that advice.

10/10

[Sir David Gray]

A huge thing rarely discussed is season ticket holders being able to watch the game live in their house. Bound to have a significant effect on freezing days like Saturday. Is that for the whole season?

Yes.

[PatHead]

As Bobby Williamson said "if you want entertainment go to the cinema"

Except he didn't say that.

[Tambo]

I think anyone who finally won the cup would go down in hero status. This is not a dig but Ross had the perfect chance to win the cup last season and the players blew it.

Anyone who gets Hibs to a 3rd place finish in the league and numerous trips to Hampden would be a success for me.

I really hope Jack and the players can start turning this around and a league cup win would be amazing to start with before a big derby game.

[Greencore]

Except he didn't say that.

Okay 🙃🙃

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/football/international/why-hibs-boss-bobby-williamsons-cinema-quip-doesnt-stand-up-in-2021-3178917%3famp

[The Spaceman]

He is a success yes. Got us into third comfortably and multiple cup finals. We are just being wildly unreasonable as a fan base after a relatively short slump.

[basehibby]

Back to the original question - they say a manager is as good as his last result and on that basis Ross gets a "meh" rating - that's only a "truism" though and as such, hardly a fair assessment of Ross' time at Hibs.

I'd say he has taken us forward in terms of the general quality of the squad plus we are in a cup final (again) and, in that, Ross has the chance to carve SUCCESS into his reign as Hibs boss in capital letters. That could ultimately go a long way to defining his reign at Hibs but, on the whole so far, despite a recent run of poor league form, I would give Jack Ross pass marks so yes a success.

That could all change quite quickly of course - but that's football.

[Smartie]

He’s been a resounding success in some aspects of his job and a failure in others.

As he has done so well in some areas, he deserves time and patience to work on the failures.

So far I wouldn’t say he’s been a success or a failure - the jury’s out. He could go a long way towards tipping it one way or the other over the next few weeks though.

[loanheadhibby]

If we were sitting top of the league right now i don't think crowds would be too much different.
That's ridiculous of course they would be.

[jacomo]

Except he didn't say that.


More or less.

[Lendo]

100% a success IMO.

First 3rd place finish in 16 years
3 semi finals
2 finals - one still to play

Brought through Josh Doig and now Josh Campbell
Signed Kevin Nisbet
Developed Boyle and Porteous to best form in career

All of whom will earn us a lot of money (not including Campbell as too early but looks promising).

Yes the current run of form is poor, but win our 2 games in hand and we’re joint 4th. The league is very very tight and a couple of games or run in form will see us climb it quickly. Doidge back will make a huge difference and the January signing will see us go for real quality after the disaster of the summer.

I have faith he’ll get us back up the league. I also have a weird feeling we’re beating Celtic on the 19th, call it blind optimism if you will.

if you had asked any supporter at the start of JR’s tenure they would have bitten your hand off for this return.

[LeithMike]

Definitely.

Stubbs and his achievements are criminally underrated by some. I've even heard claim he was lucky to inherit such a shambles because it meant he could start from scratch. I think he was just a good fit for the structure we had at the time, I wouldn't go back now and there were disappointments of course but he left us in far better shape than he found us. Yes, we ran out of steam in the 2016 season but our schedule was absolutely crazy. The way we boucned back from devastating losses to Ross County and Falkirk to secure huge victories in the next games was the mark of him and the team he helped build.I always found the lack of width in our football frustrating under Stubbs. I hated the diamond formation and he never clicked that McGeouch was better at the base than on the right. That said, he did really well re-building the club from its lowest point and made a lot of good signings. He also built a really good team spirit - one that survived into the Lennon years.

As for Lennon, I think he really moved us on by reintroducing width and it sparked the unbelievable improvement in Boyle. We weren't great in the championship but were good enough and started pretty well in the SPFL before going on the best half season I've seen from a Hibs team. Not sure whether it was by luck or design but getting McGeouch as the holding midfielder supplemented by McGinn and Allan was the best midfield I have seen and it felt like we had a perfectly balanced team and a manager driving them on. We had great momentum and I couldn't wait to be at ER to watch a team who could dominate any opposition and be part of a vibrant atmosphere. We went downhill very rapdily the following season and it was clear that Lennon was a good team manager and not one for hard times or a rebuild. Later proven at Celtic too.

As for Jack Ross, I am undecided. I know you rate last year's 3rd place PB but for me it was a poor league. The fact that Hearts (who were in a bad way have gone straight to 3rd) tells you a lot about the strength of the league. While I thought we played well enough in the SF against Hearts, I thought we were dreadful in the SF against StJ and then again in the final. I still feel like I don't know how JR wants us to play and I feel our midfield mix is still well off. It also feels like we really struggle with teams who press well and don't give us time or space. I appreciate Magennis is out and while he has improved dramatically from last season, I still didn't think our midfield was great early season. Perhaps JR can improve us over the transfer window. I think he's probably earned that right but I can certainly understand the criticism of him, especially when you include his record before Hibs.

Stick or twist. Who knows. We'd need to go with someone who could do better and I'm not sure he's out there. I like McInnes as a manager and think his football style is unfairly put down and I used to like the way they played with McGinn and Hayes but it remains to be seen if he is now damaged goods after staying too long at Pittodrie. Our fans would probably be against him anyway so he'd be unlikely to be given much time.

I think we'll see over the remainder of the season if Ross can keep taking us forward.

One thing for sure is we've now lost all the forward momentum from our nadir when Stubbs was appointed. I hope we don't have to sink so low again to get us feeling more positive about the direction of the club and the fans eager to pack out ER again. It doesn't even feel like the cup final has lifted the gloom.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[worcesterhibby]

I’m not sure that’s accurate or fair. Hibs managers before Ross have managed good football that the wider support bought into. Mowbray, an all to brief period under Collins, Stubbs, 6 months under Lennon. Not sure where you’re reading folk asking for “Man City/Liverpool style performances and cup wine every year”. Sounds more like hyperbole.

but that’s my point exactly, as a support we USED to give managers our backing, We played some nice stuff under Mowbray at times, but these days he would be constantly accused of losing “The Big Games” in 2005/2006 The team started strongly in the league, but this form dipped after Christmas. The Scottish Cup (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Cup) seemed to be opening up after we defeated Rangers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangers_F.C.) 3–0 at Ibrox (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrox_Stadium) in the fourth round, but we then lost 4–0 in an Edinburgh derby (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_derby) semi–final against Hearts (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Midlothian_F.C.). And lost 3–0 in the quarter–final of the Scottish League Cup (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup) at Dunfermline (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunfermline_Athletic_F.C.).

can you imagine the stick Ross would get for that?

[LunasBoots]

Yes he is a success to a point like all managers you get the good and the bad, last season was good and this season for various reasons so far not great.

[B.H.F.C]

if you had asked any supporter at the start of JR’s tenure they would have bitten your hand off for this return.

Not necessarily. If you’d told me that we’d be in the last four of two competitions without any Old Firm but lose 3-0 to St Johnstone in one of them and 1-0 to them in the other, with the manner of performance that we put in, I wouldn’t have bitten your hand off. And that’s in addition to having lost in a semi final to a then championship Hearts.

[matty_f]

Not necessarily. If you’d told me that we’d be in the last four of two competitions without any Old Firm but lose 3-0 to St Johnstone in one of them and 1-0 to them in the other, with the manner of performance that we put in, I wouldn’t have bitten your hand off. And that’s in addition to having lost in a semi final to a then championship Hearts.

Well obviously.

But not knowing who we will play, would you take getting to the Scottish Cup final this season? And if not, can you tell me which earlier round you’d like to get knocked out?

[hibsbollah]

He’s probably in the top 2-3% of the nations earners, beautiful house in the Northumbrian countryside, nice wife and young family, has his health seemingly and a decent dress sense, despite having the bad luck to grow up in Falkirk. Gets paid for doing a job many of us would do for nothing.

Definitely a success :greengrin

[LaMotta]

He’s probably in the top 2-3% of the nations earners, beautiful house in the Northumbrian countryside, nice wife and young family, has his health seemingly and a decent dress sense, despite having the bad luck to grow up in Falkirk. Gets paid for doing a job many of us would do for nothing.

Definitely a success :greengrin

If you can afford a Sandbanks Parka, you are doing ok. :greengrin

[ahibby]

He’s probably in the top 2-3% of the nations earners, beautiful house in the Northumbrian countryside, nice wife and young family, has his health seemingly and a decent dress sense, despite having the bad luck to grow up in Falkirk. Gets paid for doing a job many of us would do for nothing.

Definitely a success :greengrin

Its not about JR. Successes and failures belong to Hibs as things stand. The team has picked itself for a while because of suspensions and injuries and a small pool of players

[B.H.F.C]

Well obviously.

But not knowing who we will play, would you take getting to the Scottish Cup final this season? And if not, can you tell me which earlier round you’d like to get knocked out?

Just don’t think it’s as black and white as that.

I’ve already said earlier in the thread that I think he deserves praise for his run to the League Cup final this season. I don’t think the same applies to the cup runs last season that many see as a success. Prefer to judge on what actually happens than something that is entirely hypothetical, especially when you’re only offering up half a scenario.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Just don’t think it’s as black and white as that.

I’ve already said earlier in the thread that I think he deserves praise for his run to the League Cup final this season. I don’t think the same applies to the cup runs last season that many see as a success. Prefer to judge on what actually happens than something that is entirely hypothetical, especially when you’re only offering up half a scenario.

The question was would you have taken the offer of 2 finals, 2 semis and 3rd place while we were sitting hovering above the relegation spots.

Deal or no deal?

[B.H.F.C]

The question was would you have taken the offer of 2 finals, 2 semis and 3rd place while we were sitting hovering above the relegation spots.

Deal or no deal?

No deal without telling me what the circumstance of the cup runs are.

I’d have taken third place, obviously. But I don’t see any success in the cup runs prior to this one, just missed opportunity.

[Pretty Boy]

Asking people now if they would have taken last seasons cup runs in a hypothetical scenario is a daft argument trying to force them to say what you want them to say.

We are in a position in which we are discussing them with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts at our disposal so we should actually be capable of having a grown up conversation about it.

[Brightside]

Asking people now if they would have taken last seasons cup runs in a hypothetical scenario is a daft argument trying to force them to say what you want them to say.

We are in a position in which we are discussing them with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts at our disposal so we should actually be capable of having a grown up conversation about it.

But plenty people on here said 3rd is meaningless in the grand scheme of things and cup runs and wins are more important. I totally disagree with that and want us to be 3rd. And if we win the cup and finish 6th in my mind that’s a poor season.

[ahibby]

Asking people now if they would have taken last seasons cup runs in a hypothetical scenario is a daft argument trying to force them to say what you want them to say.

We are in a position in which we are discussing them with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts at our disposal so we should actually be capable of having a grown up conversation about it.

You are right. The angle presented us clearly one of confirmation bias, which has focused on a third place and cup runs while ignoring numerous dire home performances last season. Slughtly better home performances this season but possibly wont enjoy a 3rd spot or the same level of cup runs, but then again maybe.

[Keith_M]

I take back everything I've previously said and I think I'll decide at the end of the season.

I also reserve the right to alternate between defending Ross and calling for his head on a weekly basis.


Such is the life of a football fan

[Hibernian Verse]

No deal without telling me what the circumstance of the cup runs are.

I’d have taken third place, obviously. But I don’t see any success in the cup runs prior to this one, just missed opportunity.

You can only play what's in front of you. St Johnstone were a freak, ultimate cup team for one season (beating Rangers en route to the Scottish Cup too) and we've beaten them 2/2 this season. It happens.

When did we become so entitled as a group of fans that it mattered who we played & beat in a cup run? It's about time some people got a dose of reality around here. We might have better players and pay them more than St Mirren or Ross County do but it's hardly PSG to Lorient levels up here. You can expect us to beat these sides 9 time out of 10 but, in reality, we won't because it's not Football Manager with set parameters during the 90 minutes of football.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Asking people now if they would have taken last seasons cup runs in a hypothetical scenario is a daft argument trying to force them to say what you want them to say.

We are in a position in which we are discussing them with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts at our disposal so we should actually be capable of having a grown up conversation about it.

It’ll be a similar argument when we get the new guy in - what do we expect from him? Or do we just have to hedge our bets and set expectations after the fact this time?

[Pretty Boy]

It’ll be a similar argument when we get the new guy in - what do we expect from him? Or do we just have to hedge our bets and set expectations after the fact this time?

Of course expectations of a manager are discussed at the start of their tenure but football is fluid and circumstances change constantly. This isn't a thread about what our expectations of JR were 2 years ago, it's an assessment of his tenure up to this point with all the facts and outcomes that have happened in that period available to us to make an informed judgment.

To take your Deal or No Deal point from earlier further; if you have 22 boxes on the table and are offered £95K you obviously take it because there are countless worse outcomes, if however you play the game and you have £80K and £250K left on the table at the end you think about it for a whole lot longer. Any of those outcomes is a success but a couple of them would leave you wondering what might have been. Convert that to football. The 1p box is relegation, the £250K box is a cup double and £95K is 3rd, a semi final defeat and a final defeat. You don't even consider the 1p box because it's not on the table at the point you are making the final choice, circumstances have moved on. You deal and then see the box you had in front of you was the £250K/double. Are you totally satisfied or do you have a few regrets? You are still £95K better off than when you started but it was within your grasp for it to be a whole lot better.

If the argument for Jack Ross being a success is strong enough on it's own merits, and I hope I said in my earlier lengthy post on this thread that it is albeit with qualifications, then what our expectations were 2 years ago are largely irrelevant. Last season a cup final semi final defeat to St Johnstone was ultimately a bit disappointing. This season I think our LC campaign is a success regardless of how the final goes, defeating Dundee Utd away and Rangers at Hampden massively exceeded my expectations. Beating Dundee, Alloa and losing badly to St Johnstone didn't.

[munchar]

It’ll be a similar argument when we get the new guy in - what do we expect from him? Or do we just have to hedge our bets and set expectations after the fact this time?

I would expect any manager who gets the Hibs job, given time to build his own squad, but given the infrastructure, fan base & budget, we should never be out the top 6 & along with a strong Hearts & Aberdeen, be fighting for 3rd place every season. A squad also talented enough to go into cup competitions with a really good chance of winning it, not hoping to win it.

[matty_f]

Asking people now if they would have taken last seasons cup runs in a hypothetical scenario is a daft argument trying to force them to say what you want them to say.

We are in a position in which we are discussing them with the benefit of hindsight and all the facts at our disposal so we should actually be capable of having a grown up conversation about it.

It’s a grown up conversation to explore the thinking around someone’s point, PB, and it’s quite patronising to suggest otherwise :greengrin

When you set targets, you do so without knowing what’s coming down the road so the point about biting your hand off for third place, a cup final etc at the start of the season is just as relevant to make as the retrospective view that BHFC shared about not biting your hand off if the very specific set of circumstances were offered.

It’s then reasonable to question that, which is all that’s happened here.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I would expect any manager who gets the Hibs job, given time to build his own squad, but given the infrastructure, fan base & budget, we should never be out the top 6 & along with a strong Hearts & Aberdeen, be fighting for 3rd place every season. A squad also talented enough to go into cup competitions with a really good chance of winning it, not hoping to win it.

Same here. And that's exactly what he's done/doing in the limited time he's been here.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Of course expectations of a manager are discussed at the start of their tenure but football is fluid and circumstances change constantly. This isn't a thread about what our expectations of JR were 2 years ago, it's an assessment of his tenure up to this point with all the facts and outcomes that have happened in that period available to us to make an informed judgment.

To take your Deal or No Deal point from earlier further; if you have 22 boxes on the table and are offered £95K you obviously take it because there are countless worse outcomes, if however you play the game and you have £80K and £250K left on the table at the end you think about it for a whole lot longer. Any of those outcomes is a success but a couple of them would leave you wondering what might have been. Convert that to football. The 1p box is relegation, the £250K box is a cup double and £95K is 3rd, a semi final defeat and a final defeat. You don't even consider the 1p box because it's not on the table at the point you are making the final choice, circumstances have moved on. You deal and then see the box you had in front of you was the £250K/double. Are you totally satisfied or do you have a few regrets? You are still £95K better off than when you started but it was within your grasp for it to be a whole lot better.

If the argument for Jack Ross being a success is strong enough on it's own merits, and I hope I said in my earlier lengthy post on this thread that it is albeit with qualifications, then what our expectations were 2 years ago are largely irrelevant. Last season a cup final semi final defeat to St Johnstone was ultimately a bit disappointing. This season I think our LC campaign is a success regardless of how the final goes, defeating Dundee Utd away and Rangers at Hampden massively exceeded my expectations. Beating Dundee, Alloa and losing badly to St Johnstone didn't.

I think for a lot of people they'll have a number in mind going into the show and make peace with that. You do get folk that are a bit more impulsive and choose to gamble though - often they lose out in the long run, then they really have regrets about not taking the £95k.

[B.H.F.C]

You can only play what's in front of you. St Johnstone were a freak, ultimate cup team for one season (beating Rangers en route to the Scottish Cup too) and we've beaten them 2/2 this season. It happens.

When did we become so entitled as a group of fans that it mattered who we played & beat in a cup run? It's about time some people got a dose of reality around here. We might have better players and pay them more than St Mirren or Ross County do but it's hardly PSG to Lorient levels up here. You can expect us to beat these sides 9 time out of 10 but, in reality, we won't because it's not Football Manager with set parameters during the 90 minutes of football.

I don’t think I’m being entitled, just judge based on what I’ve seen and give credit where it’s due (like for this seasons cup run). I stand by my opinion that we failed in the cup runs last season based on the draw. We’ve already exceeded my expectations for the current cup run based on the draw. I don’t get the football manager chat, seems to be quite a common line where folk have what is perceived to be a negative opinion. You sometimes lose on football manager as well though.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I don’t think I’m being entitled, just judge based on what I’ve seen and give credit where it’s due (like for this seasons cup run). I stand by my opinion that we failed in the cup runs last season based on the draw. We’ve already exceeded my expectations for the current cup run based on the draw. I don’t get the football manager chat, seems to be quite a common line where folk have what is perceived to be a negative opinion. You sometimes lose on football manager as well though.

CTRL+ALT+DEL is the way round that in the game isn't it?

In real life there's calls for the manager to get sacked.

[SlickShoes]

I would expect any manager who gets the Hibs job, given time to build his own squad, but given the infrastructure, fan base & budget, we should never be out the top 6 & along with a strong Hearts & Aberdeen, be fighting for 3rd place every season. A squad also talented enough to go into cup competitions with a really good chance of winning it, not hoping to win it.

When has this ever happened though? I think its fine to aim for that but expectations should be set from reality, and the reality of hibs is we do NOT consistently ever finish in the top3, most seasons we have struggled to even be top six in the current post 80's era.

As for the cup, every team in the top league probably fancies their chances, and you know that these other teams are trying to win too? Hibs don't exist in a vacuum.

[munchar]

Same here. And that's exactly what he's done/doing in the limited time he's been here.

This is the point of this thread. It’s having a discussion & seeing what other supporters thoughts are. It’s enjoyable looking at everyone’s points of view from different scenarios. We can’t look back & say historically others haven’t done this that or the other. At this present time, the club is in a very healthy position off the field, hopefully we’re heading in the right direction on the field also. Footballs no different from any other product. If it’s good you’ll buy it, if not you won’t. Diehards will buy whatever is served, but to get the missing thousands back regularly, we need to be a top team capable of competing at the business end of the season consistently.

[B.H.F.C]

CTRL+ALT+DEL is the way round that in the game isn't it?

In real life there's calls for the manager to get sacked.

What’s your point? There are lots of other things that happen in real life that lead to those calls are there not?

[The 90+2]

But plenty people on here said 3rd is meaningless in the grand scheme of things and cup runs and wins are more important. I totally disagree with that and want us to be 3rd. And if we win the cup and finish 6th in my mind that’s a poor season.


Cups mean nothing unless you win them - especially if you lose in Semi's and Finals to the likes of St Johnstone. Last year's Scottish Cup Final was even worse for us because finishing third didn't give the bonus of Europa League like it would have if it was one of the Old Firm that won it - St Johnstone took that from us too by winning it.

Paddy got us to 2 Scottish Cup finals and various Semi's. He still wasn't good enough.

I'm not arguing against Jack, just putting some perspective on things.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Cups mean nothing unless you win them - especially if you lose in Semi's and Finals to the likes of St Johnstone.

Paddy got us to 2 Scottish Cup finals and various Semi's. He still wasn't good enough.

I'm not arguing against Jack, just putting some perspective on things.

In addition to that the league position was our problem along with a few absolute scuddings he couldn't recover from.

JR gets a hard time for doing the league position and cup runs.

[Pretty Boy]

It’s a grown up conversation to explore the thinking around someone’s point, PB, and it’s quite patronising to suggest otherwise :greengrin

When you set targets, you do so without knowing what’s coming down the road so the point about biting your hand off for third place, a cup final etc at the start of the season is just as relevant to make as the retrospective view that BHFC shared about not biting your hand off if the very specific set of circumstances were offered.

It’s then reasonable to question that, which is all that’s happened here.

Obviously targets in any business are set without full knowledge of future circumstances at the time of setting them but when you sit down for an appraisal or whatever, certainly in my line of work, you look at the complete picture over the time period set.

2 years ago I was looking after about £1.9M worth of business in my work and my target for 2020, set in November 2019, was to grow that to approx £2.05M. By December 2020 I had achieved sales of approx £290K because the world went completely mad. I wasn't savaged by my boss for failing to meet my targets because a very specific set of circumstances altered what was achievable. Our targets are generally set expecting year on year increases but, with a return to relative normality this year, my target wasn't set at £300K, it was far more ambitious than that because circumstances changed again and opportunities presented themselves.

When we are assessing Jack Ross we can say that a semi final and a final was good. I daresay it met, and very possibly exceeded, the targets set by the club. Does it show the whole picture though? Can we as fans not say it was good but it could, and arguably should, have been better now we are in possession of all the information rather than setting arbitrary expectations 2 years ago? I said above that this seasons LC is a success regardless of what happens in 2 weeks because of the teams we have faced. If we draw Celtic away in the next round of the SC we will more than likely miss our target for the season, there would be plenty mitigation though as it would be about the worst draw we could face early in the competition. I wouldn't expect Ross to be ruled a failure based on that because it's a specific set of circumstances. If we lose our 4th round tie it's a different conversation again.

[The 90+2]

In addition to that the league position was our problem along with a few absolute scuddings he couldn't recover from.

JR gets a hard time for doing the league position and cup runs.

True. There was always a feeling with Fenlon he was the cheap option also when Clarke turned us down.

Like I edited, I think third would have been seen as more of a success ironically if we didn't make the final and say Celtic pumped St Johnstone in the final - that way we would have got all the rewards for finishing third like Europa league dropping into the Conf' we had to start in because ultimately we lost the final and Saints took our place with that. Check the European nights they got in exchange.

[eastmainsmsh]

Understand folks frustration JR had a raw deal at Sunderland he has been good for Hibs and may have seen club as a step back up ladder hopefully a league cup win and a good window can get things back on track

[Danderhall Hibs]

Obviously targets in any business are set without full knowledge of future circumstances at the time of setting them but when you sit down for an appraisal or whatever, certainly in my line of work, you look at the complete picture over the time period set.

2 years ago I was looking after about £1.9M worth of business in my work and my target for 2020, set in November 2019, was to grow that to approx £2.05M. By December 2020 I had achieved sales of approx £290K because the world went completely mad. I wasn't savaged by my boss for failing to meet my targets because a very specific set of circumstances altered what was achievable. Our targets are generally set expecting year on year increases but, with a return to relative normality this year, my target wasn't set at £300K, it was far more ambitious than that because circumstances changed again and opportunities presented themselves.

When we are assessing Jack Ross we can say that a semi final and a final was good. I daresay it met, and very possibly exceeded, the targets set by the club. Does it show the whole picture though? Can we as fans not say it was good but it could, and arguably should, have been better now we are in possession of all the information rather than setting arbitrary expectations 2 years ago? I said above that this seasons LC is a success regardless of what happens in 2 weeks because of the teams we have faced. If we draw Celtic away in the next round of the SC we will more than likely miss our target for the season, there would be plenty mitigation though as it would be about the worst draw we could face early in the competition. I wouldn't expect Ross to be ruled a failure based on that because it's a specific set of circumstances. If we lose our 4th round tie it's a different conversation again.

This years expectations should be lower now based on the poor transfer window and the covid break now creating a fixture pile up, coupled with injuries to key players.

He must be exceeding the expectations based on that.

[matty_f]

In addition to that the league position was our problem along with a few absolute scuddings he couldn't recover from.

JR gets a hard time for doing the league position and cup runs.

And possibly unfairly as well, because I’ve thought we’ve been pretty crap for a lot of this season, the cup run is great but our league form has been absolutely honking, we’ve put in some of the worst performances I’ve seen from a Hibs team and right now, in the league, are well below where I’d have accepted for the season when we went into it.

However, PB makes a good point that football is a moving thing and circumstances etc change, so if I take that thinking I can probably cut JR some slack and reassess where we are, given he’s been without Doidge, Magennis, Hallberg, Mackay, Murphy etc through injury, given the let down of the transfer window where he wasn’t given adequate players in two key positions (centre half and striker) where the lack of cover has left him badly exposed.

Fot the Euro exit, he was let down by one of his most experienced players, and through lack of cover he’s had to do without his best centre half after a ridiculous red card at Ibrox.

He’s not been able to rest Nisbet, who’s played through injury, or Boyle whose covered all sorts of miles for club and country.

He’s had to contend with covid outbreaks in the team and had to play players out of form because there was no cover. He’s had to deal with Josh Doig’s imminent but never materialising transfer and keep playing him.

So maybe my opinion that he’s not showing enough that he can get a tune out of this team and we should be thinking of moving him on if things don’t improve, is a bit harsh and he’s doing alright?

[Danderhall Hibs]

And possibly unfairly as well, because I’ve thought we’ve been pretty crap for a lot of this season, the cup run is great but our league form has been absolutely honking, we’ve put in some of the worst performances I’ve seen from a Hibs team and right now, in the league, are well below where I’d have accepted for the season when we went into it.

However, PB makes a good point that football is a moving thing and circumstances etc change, so if I take that thinking I can probably cut JR some slack and reassess where we are, given he’s been without Doidge, Magennis, Hallberg, Mackay, Murphy etc through injury, given the let down of the transfer window where he wasn’t given adequate players in two key positions (centre half and striker) where the lack of cover has left him badly exposed.

Fot the Euro exit, he was let down by one of his most experienced players, and through lack of cover he’s had to do without his best centre half after a ridiculous red card at Ibrox.

He’s not been able to rest Nisbet, who’s played through injury, or Boyle whose covered all sorts of miles for club and country.

He’s had to contend with covid outbreaks in the team and had to play players out of form because there was no cover. He’s had to deal with Josh Doig’s imminent but never materialising transfer and keep playing him.

So maybe my opinion that he’s not showing enough that he can get a tune out of this team and we should be thinking of moving him on if things don’t improve, is a bit harsh and he’s doing alright?

All fair points and relevant - if we win the games in hand we go 4th, despite all the stuff you mention that's working against him/us.

[Pretty Boy]

This years expectations should be lower now based on the poor transfer window and the covid break now creating a fixture pile up, coupled with injuries to key players.

He must be exceeding the expectations based on that.

I wouldn't necessarily say he is exceeding expectations this season but I would agree there is a lot of mitigating circumstances for our current run. Matty lists most of them above.

I'm certainly not one of the ringleaders of some Ross out campaign and I think I've been pretty balanced in my assessment of him. However if, and it's a huge if that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, our current run of form continues for another 3 or 4 weeks and we start looking nervously over our shoulders then I'm not sure all the pleas in mitigation in the world are going to keep the pressure of him. For all the trying circumstances we have faced I still think we should be faring slightly better than we are now and with players becoming available from suspension and injury and others starting to hit a bit of form I don't think it's unfair to expect a (arguably continued) improvement in results to match the upturn in performances of late.

[Jones28]

And possibly unfairly as well, because I’ve thought we’ve been pretty crap for a lot of this season, the cup run is great but our league form has been absolutely honking, we’ve put in some of the worst performances I’ve seen from a Hibs team and right now, in the league, are well below where I’d have accepted for the season when we went into it.

However, PB makes a good point that football is a moving thing and circumstances etc change, so if I take that thinking I can probably cut JR some slack and reassess where we are, given he’s been without Doidge, Magennis, Hallberg, Mackay, Murphy etc through injury, given the let down of the transfer window where he wasn’t given adequate players in two key positions (centre half and striker) where the lack of cover has left him badly exposed.

Fot the Euro exit, he was let down by one of his most experienced players, and through lack of cover he’s had to do without his best centre half after a ridiculous red card at Ibrox.

He’s not been able to rest Nisbet, who’s played through injury, or Boyle whose covered all sorts of miles for club and country.

He’s had to contend with covid outbreaks in the team and had to play players out of form because there was no cover. He’s had to deal with Josh Doig’s imminent but never materialising transfer and keep playing him.

So maybe my opinion that he’s not showing enough that he can get a tune out of this team and we should be thinking of moving him on if things don’t improve, is a bit harsh and he’s doing alright?

Great post Matty. Nothing more to add other than to fully get behind everything you've said there.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I wouldn't necessarily say he is exceeding expectations this season but I would agree there is a lot of mitigating circumstances for our current run. Matty lists most of them above.

I'm certainly not one of the ringleaders of some Ross out campaign and I think I've been pretty balanced in my assessment of him. However if, and it's a huge if that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, our current run of form continues for another 3 or 4 weeks and we start looking nervously over our shoulders then I'm not sure all the pleas in mitigation in the world are going to keep the pressure of him. For all the trying circumstances we have faced I still think we should be faring slightly better than we are now and with players becoming available from suspension and injury and others starting to hit a bit of form I don't think it's unfair to expect a (arguably continued) improvement in results to match the upturn in performances of late.

I agree - the pressure won't be lifted. The shifting of expectation only seems to work one way

[Jones28]

I wouldn't necessarily say he is exceeding expectations this season but I would agree there is a lot of mitigating circumstances for our current run. Matty lists most of them above.

I'm certainly not one of the ringleaders of some Ross out campaign and I think I've been pretty balanced in my assessment of him. However if, and it's a huge if that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, our current run of form continues for another 3 or 4 weeks and we start looking nervously over our shoulders then I'm not sure all the pleas in mitigation in the world are going to keep the pressure of him. For all the trying circumstances we have faced I still think we should be faring slightly better than we are now and with players becoming available from suspension and injury and others starting to hit a bit of form I don't think it's unfair to expect a (arguably continued) improvement in results to match the upturn in performances of late.

Theres no questioning that, even from me as a defender of Jack Ross.

I don't think the board would agree with that though, I think they'll give him the January window to bring bodies in, allow a bit of bedding in time and see how we fare in the second half of the season.

Obviously thats barring a really disastrous run of results.

[matty_f]

I wouldn't necessarily say he is exceeding expectations this season but I would agree there is a lot of mitigating circumstances for our current run. Matty lists most of them above.

I'm certainly not one of the ringleaders of some Ross out campaign and I think I've been pretty balanced in my assessment of him. However if, and it's a huge if that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, our current run of form continues for another 3 or 4 weeks and we start looking nervously over our shoulders then I'm not sure all the pleas in mitigation in the world are going to keep the pressure of him. For all the trying circumstances we have faced I still think we should be faring slightly better than we are now and with players becoming available from suspension and injury and others starting to hit a bit of form I don't think it's unfair to expect a (arguably continued) improvement in results to match the upturn in performances of late.

I don’t think it’s unfair to expect better either, both in terms of performances and results, it’s interesting to see that your own targets were adjusted accordingly due to circumstances but you don’t think the mitigation that Ross could point to will/should save him? What’s different?

I think you’re right, by the way - i think if we’re bottom six or maybe even outside at a Euro spot at the end of the season then there will be a big decision for Gordon to make , and the measure he’ll use is the targets set at the start of the season before all the unknowns unfolded.

[Pretty Boy]

Theres no questioning that, even from me as a defender of Jack Ross.

I don't think the board would agree with that though, I think they'll give him the January window to bring bodies in, allow a bit of bedding in time and see how we fare in the second half of the season.

Obviously thats barring a really disastrous run of results.

I agree.

Ross is under very little pressure internally as it stands and rightly so. We as fans can be emotive and call for change or moan like ****. We should expect those in power within the club to be a bit more measured and it seems they are being.

Ross will get January and he deserves it to. I would say that the club have put so much emphasis on the summer failures as the reason for our poor league season thus far that I think they will expect relatively quick and tangible improvement though. In saying that barring a disaster I fully expect him to get the summer window as well. If we are still having the same discussions this time next year then I think he will be in big bother. It's in everyone's best interests if we can avoid that.

[Pretty Boy]

I don’t think it’s unfair to expect better either, both in terms of performances and results, it’s interesting to see that your own targets were adjusted accordingly due to circumstances but you don’t think the mitigation that Ross could point to will/should save him? What’s different?

I think you’re right, by the way - i think if we’re bottom six or maybe even outside at a Euro spot at the end of the season then there will be a big decision for Gordon to make , and the measure he’ll use is the targets set at the start of the season before all the unknowns unfolded.

I don't think anythings different. I am sure certain targets will have shifted within the club, unofficially at any rate, and my own expectations have shifted as well. I have all but written 3rd or 4th off this year and can accept there are numerous reasons for feeling I have to do that.

I did say if, heavy lifting caveat again, this form goes on and we start getting dragged towards the wrong end of the table then the pressure will build. Even allowing for the mitigation, our targets and expectations must be better than anything from avoiding relegation to finishing 7th or 8th? The current players at our disposal should still be good enough to be sitting in the top 6, imo of course.

I think when we (as in the podcast) spoke to Ben recently he was clear the club are looking for consistency in the league. I think 3rd to 5th or 6th could be excused this year because of all the factors we have listed previously. 3rd to 7th? I'm not so sure, especially if Ross is backed as we expect in January.

[matty_f]

I don't think anythings different. I am sure certain targets will have shifted within the club, unofficially at any rate, and my own expectations have shifted as well. I have all but written 3rd or 4th off this year and can accept there are numerous reasons for feeling I have to do that.

I did say if, heavy lifting caveat again, this form goes on and we start getting dragged towards the wrong end of the table then the pressure will build. Even allowing for the mitigation, our targets and expectations must be better than anything from avoiding relegation to finishing 7th or 8th? The current players at our disposal should still be good enough to be sitting in the top 6, imo of course.

I think when we (as in the podcast) spoke to Ben recently he was clear the club are looking for consistency in the league. I think 3rd to 5th or 6th could be excused this year because of all the factors we have listed previously. 3rd to 7th? I'm not so sure, especially if Ross is backed as we expect in January.

I’m not sure (as in i can’t remember and it feels like too much worn to check, so apologies to whoever it was) who posted that the success is a team thing but it’s probably a fair point when it comes to assessing where we are at the end of the season.

The club target will be to finish top 4, if that’s not achieved then it’s not necessarily the manager who is on the hook for that - the recruitment and medical teams will be scrutinised, the commercial team will be asked if they raised the cash to fund the ambitions etc

[Pretty Boy]

I’m not sure (as in i can’t remember and it feels like too much worn to check, so apologies to whoever it was) who posted that the success is a team thing but it’s probably a fair point when it comes to assessing where we are at the end of the season.

The club target will be to finish top 4, if that’s not achieved then it’s not necessarily the manager who is on the hook for that - the recruitment and medical teams will be scrutinised, the commercial team will be asked if they raised the cash to fund the ambitions etc

Absolutely.

I think Ron et al have proven since coming in they can be ruthless when they have to be. Graeme Mathie isn't the only person who has been moved on since the summer.

When we assess the season, after the next few months have played out, there will be a far clearer picture of what worked and what didn't. I daresay that all the issues that we have repeatedly raised in the last couple of pages will be looked at and people will have to take responsibility for them. If we as both club and fanbase have had to revise expectations downwards then there is a reason for that, many of which on the face of it were within our control, so I think it's correct to say everyone who plays a part in the football operation, directly or indirectly, will be under scrutiny.

[matty_f]

Absolutely.

I think Ron et al have proven since coming in they can be ruthless when they have to be. Graeme Mathie isn't the only person who has been moved on since the summer.

When we assess the season, after the next few months have played out, there will be a far clearer picture of what worked and what didn't. I daresay that all the issues that we have repeatedly raised in the last couple of pages will be looked at and people will have to take responsibility for them. If we as both club and fanbase have had to revise expectations downwards then there is a reason for that, many of which on the face of it were within our control, so I think it's correct to say everyone who plays a part in the football operation, directly or indirectly, will be under scrutiny.

:agree: I agree with that.

FWIW, I’m not really sure we should be adjusting our expectations downwards. If we’re 5th or 6th come the end of the season it’ll go down as a bad one - to use your heavy lifting “if”, if we win the cup then it’ll go to a good season.

Getting to the final itself is a good achievement, but in the context of a poor league season it’s probably not enough to lift the overall rating. Both finals or another semi would help.

[oldbutdim]

And so we appointed Terry Butcher as his replacement.


Tony Mowbray


Think you missed out 10 years and a league Cup trophy there.



I have absolutely no idea why I wrote that..........

Too much Rioja has given me the odd drink blackout, but I've not had one that lasts ten or more years before.

Or not that I can remember.

[bingo70]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.

[heretoday]

He's not a success yet.

[Fergus52]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.

None of us have a clear picture of what went on in the summer, but the fact that Mathie was sacked implies to me that the poor window was primarily his fault - unless the club were looking to make a scapegoat of him which I doubt.

Ross all but confirmed that Doig was away after the Motherwell game, so he must have been expecting to get a decent amount of money to spend from that before the deal fell through. Mathie had been saying in several interviews last summer that he wanted to be the man to get the best fee received for a hibs player, so I think its a safe guess to say that him holding out for £5million for Doig is what caused the English teams to back off. Kensall also alluded to this when he said that the club should have made at least one sale in the summer. Had we received say £3.5 million for Doig with good sell on clauses and spent that money on the Norwegian left back and a much higher quality forward and CB than Scott and Wood the squad would probably be in a much better place.

Ross also said in several interviews throughout the transfer window that he was expecting a quality CB and striker to sign. I highly doubt that Wood and Scott were who he had in mind when he was saying this, even at the very end of the window. So while he shouldn't be completely absolved of any blame he's obviously been let down somewhere.

[matty_f]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.

Isn’t that contradictory to the view that the Cup run wasn’t good because of who we played last season - that’s part and parcel of football, you can only play who’s in front of you? Mitigation is only going one way there.

I generally agree about the credit/blame for the recruitment however in the summer window Ross was crystal clear - to the point of coming out publicly to say he’d be annoyed if it never happened - about the need for a centre half and a striker so he wasn’t being wise after the event so I think there’s enough there to suggest that the accountability fell on the right person.

I don’t think there’s much room in the squad for significant rotation at the moment because of the size of the squad and injuries/illness/suspension impacting the options he has without dropping the quality or having to shift the system.

[J-C]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.

Ross plays a part in agreeing to sign certain players Mathie and his team identified, Mathie didn't get these over the line by dallying. There was a few suggestions that Ross and Mathie didn't get on, I think with Mathie leaving it suggests he was wholly to blame for the summer nonsense. We have Mueller and Tait coming in, players regaining fitness, Ross deserves at least to get till January and then see how he does.

[CentreLine]

So, it’s not entertaining? Entertainment involves a mixture of emotions crammed in to the theatre of the event. Holds a the attention of the viewer and creates talking points.
Let’s take our frequent staring lineup and see how it shapes up:

Macey - Good shot stopper. Who can deny getting a lift when he comes out to confront an attacker or even when facing a penalty. Much better at coming for cross balls, he’s a big unit. We get to cheer at all that.
But then we get to groan when he has to distribute the ball and get frustrated at the interminable time he takes to put the ball back in to play.
Entertainment? Tick

McGinn - has pace, carries the ball well and is a good crosser of the ball. When we see him breaking forward we know he has a good understanding with Boyle and more recently a developing one with Cadden. His involvement in our slick forward play is frequent and effective and he even carries a goal threat. We get to cheer at all that.
But then we get to groan because he is also a decent defender but is often exposed through lack of support from those ahead of him, having to try and look after two or more attackers. So fans get frustrated and get to shout abuse at his perceived failings.
Entertainment? Tick

Porto - fully committed, quick and strong. Puts in some decisive tackles, reads the game well and good in the air. Who doesn’t enjoy when he breaks forward and when he puts in one of those long diagonals that release our forward players. Lots to cheer.
But then we groan when he fails with one of those passes and puts us under pressure, bypassing the midfield. Equally when he goes over the top in a tackle or falls down holding his head instead of getting on with the game.
Entertainment? tick

Hanlon - On his game he is everything we want from a defender. Quick, organised and effective. Fully committed to the team and a threat at set pieces. Not forgetting that he’s it’s a club legend. Lots to cheer about.
But then we get to groan when he tries a to use his right foot for crucial clearances or punts the ball aimlessly up the park under pressure, bypassing the midfield. There is always a question mark whether he would a be better with the burden of the captaincy lifted from him. We certainly groan when he allows us to defend way too deep.
Entertainment? Tick

Doig - Genuinely a developing talent and already one of the better left backs in the country. He is young and developing, what’s not to like enjoy about watching good young talent. Who doesn’t enjoy his overlaps and excellent crossing. He too carries a goal threat. Lot to cheer about.
But then we get to groan when he doesn’t takes on the shot or when he is exposed at the back and we expect too much from his developing skills.
Entertainment? Tick.

Cadden - is developing a good understanding with McGinn and making good forward runs with excellent crossing ability. Lots to cheer.
Then we get to groan when he doesn’t support the defence, exposing the right back position. And his slow start in our team has not been erased as yet.
Entertainment? Tick

Newell - A player with great feet and fully committed. Breaks down play from the opposition and very creative. He has involved in most of the quick passing, incisive play that we see almost every week in patches. Lots to cheer.
Then we groan when he is not involved, largely when the ball bypasses the midfield and the game is going overs his head. Then he has to go deep and looks lost trying to get involved.
Entertainment? Tick

Doyle-Hayes - see Newell. Excellent player.

Boyle - who does not get off their seat when Martin Boyle takes off. Hiss close control is great to see and he will outstrip almost every defender in the country. Add to that his goal threat and we have a player worth the entranced money on his own.
But then we get to groan when he is heavily marked, not to mention fouled, out of the game. Lots to cheer.
We groan when his speed draws fouls but referees see “dive”. There was a time hew went down way too easily but I’d argue that is no longer the case. To our benefit.
Entertainment? Tick

Doidge - watching him harass defenders is a joy. He puts himself about and is a constant threat. He is the only player we have that will take a chance on balls breaking infront of goal. He’s good in the air and brings a others, especially Kevin Nisbet, in to the game. Lots to cheer.
But we get to groan when his efforts don’t reap any reward or from the part of his body that get the ball over the line. But the ball regularly goes over just the same.
Entertainment? Tick

Kevin Nisbet - his touch is sublime and he sees a pass. Some of the flick on he makes are unbelievable. And he scores goals. Lots to cheer.
But then we get to groan when he looks uninterested and disappears in games. Or when he feels he’s been fouled and spends the next passage of play waving his arms at the referee instead of getting involved in the next passage of play.
Entertainment? Tick

[Smartie]

Cups mean nothing unless you win them - especially if you lose in Semi's and Finals to the likes of St Johnstone. Last year's Scottish Cup Final was even worse for us because finishing third didn't give the bonus of Europa League like it would have if it was one of the Old Firm that won it - St Johnstone took that from us too by winning it.

Paddy got us to 2 Scottish Cup finals and various Semi's. He still wasn't good enough.

I'm not arguing against Jack, just putting some perspective on things.

I don’t know if we’ll ever know whether or not Fenlon was good enough.

He had a good first season, easing us away from relegation trouble. He had a good league finish during his second season - helped by an on loan Leigh Griffiths who he brought back and helped improve immeasurably as a player. He got to a couple of Scottish cup finals, which we rarely did back then.

Yes - there were a couple of scuddings and we hadn’t started his final season well.

Felon’s undoing was an utterly honking final summer transfer window - which may or may not have been his fault. And he wasn’t sacked, he saw the writing on the wall for that group of players and chose to walk.

Jack Ross has a similarly mixed record, given what they both inherited. His undoing may yet be an abject final summer transfer window, which may or may not have been his fault.

[Ronniekirk]

I don’t know if we’ll ever know whether or not Fenlon was good enough.

He had a good first season, easing us away from relegation trouble. He had a good league finish during his second season - helped by an on loan Leigh Griffiths who he brought back and helped improve immeasurably as a player. He got to a couple of Scottish cup finals, which we rarely did back then.

Yes - there were a couple of scuddings and we hadn’t started his final season well.

Felon’s undoing was an utterly honking final summer transfer window - which may or may not have been his fault. And he wasn’t sacked, he saw the writing on the wall for that group of players and chose to walk.

Jack Ross has a similarly mixed record, given what they both inherited. His undoing may yet be an abject final summer transfer window, which may or may not have been his fault.

You could add in having to go with a smaller squad and know there were a few thread ins for this
But when doing that you need to not bring in players with a history of injuries as we haven’t been able to cope when they have been out and gives us fewer options off bench



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bingo70]

Isn’t that contradictory to the view that the Cup run wasn’t good because of who we played last season - that’s part and parcel of football, you can only play who’s in front of you? Mitigation is only going one way there.

I generally agree about the credit/blame for the recruitment however in the summer window Ross was crystal clear - to the point of coming out publicly to say he’d be annoyed if it never happened - about the need for a centre half and a striker so he wasn’t being wise after the event so I think there’s enough there to suggest that the accountability fell on the right person.

I don’t think there’s much room in the squad for significant rotation at the moment because of the size of the squad and injuries/illness/suspension impacting the options he has without dropping the quality or having to shift the system.

Sorry if I’m being thick, I don’t see how last years cup runs contradicts the mitigating factors I mentioned?

I think Ross got a lot of credit for getting us so far in the cups, I also think it’s fair to dig a bit deeper and not get carried away. Like most things, it’s not black and white as good cup run or bad cup run. He did well to avoid potential slip ups but nothing to get carried away about.

With regards to the squad size and not being rotated enough, off the top of my head, Stevenson could have played more, Gogic played an important part in us finishing 3rd but now isnt trusted to get on the park? Scott Allan came on and played brilliantly against St Johnstone and then didn’t start the following week, Jamie Murphy is recovering from fitness but managed 45 minutes against St Johnstone but only a few minutes against Rangers? I think more changes could have been made than have been, especially considering the team haven’t been winning and the numbers of games we play this month.

[matty_f]

Sorry if I’m being thick, I don’t see how last years cup runs contradicts the mitigating factors I mentioned?

I think Ross got a lot of credit for getting us so far in the cups, I also think it’s fair to dig a bit deeper and not get carried away. Like most things, it’s not black and white as good cup run or bad cup run. He did well to avoid potential slip ups but nothing to get carried away about.

With regards to the squad size and not being rotated enough, off the top of my head, Stevenson could have played more, Gogic played an important part in us finishing 3rd but now isnt trusted to get on the park? Scott Allan came on and played brilliantly against St Johnstone and then didn’t start the following week, Jamie Murphy is recovering from fitness but managed 45 minutes against St Johnstone but only a few minutes against Rangers? I think more changes could have been made than have been, especially considering the team haven’t been winning and the numbers of games we play this month.

The contradiction isn’t that the two things are related, it’s that Co draws and who you play are as much a part of football as injuries and suspensions but you’ll consider one as relevant for effectively taking down the cup runs but not consider the other as mitigation for poor form.

Re the squad, all of those players could come in but none are like for like for the players in the system that Ross has gone with since the covid lay off.

[jeffers]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.

Agree with this. Fed up hearing about the poor summer window, bar Doidge he’s had pretty much the same squad that finished 3rd last season. And like you say Ross can’t be blameless in the recruitment failures. We did sign a forward, does Ross take absolutely no responsibility ‘cos that said forward has been a total waste of time ?

I accept he’ll get this window and I think that’s totally reasonable, but there’s no hiding place for him if we bring in the players he wants and there isn’t a dramatic improvement.

[mal]

I've not read every post on this thread so I don't know if this has been covered already. Looking at our record last year shows it to be our most successful season since we moved away from the old two division structure in the 75/76 season. I'm using the criteria of League placing, Scottish Cup placing, and League Cup placing. We were third in the League, Scottish Cup runners-up, and League Cup semi-finalists. We have achieved 3rd place only 5 times during that period.

List of Hibernian F.C. seasons - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._seasons)

If you don't count that as successful then we've not had a successful season in 45 years ...

[bingo70]

I've not read every post on this thread so I don't know if this has been covered already. Looking at our record last year shows it to be our most successful season since we moved away from the old two division structure in the 75/76 season. I'm using the criteria of League placing, Scottish Cup placing, and League Cup placing. We were third in the League, Scottish Cup runners-up, and League Cup semi-finalists. We have achieved 3rd place only 5 times during that period.

List of Hibernian F.C. seasons - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._seasons)

If you don't count that as successful then we've not had a successful season in 45 years ...

Think that’s where it would depend how you define success.

I enjoyed the Mowbrey, McLeish, Stubbs, part of Lennons time and part of Collins time a lot more than I enjoyed Ross team last season. Regardless of what any stats on Wikipedia say.

I really just think it comes back to different people wanting different things. Some people just want points on the board and are only interested in the end result.

Other people want to be entertained along the way.

I don’t think either are right or wrong.

[007]

Cups mean nothing unless you win them - especially if you lose in Semi's and Finals to the likes of St Johnstone. Last year's Scottish Cup Final was even worse for us because finishing third didn't give the bonus of Europa League like it would have if it was one of the Old Firm that won it - St Johnstone took that from us too by winning it.

Paddy got us to 2 Scottish Cup finals and various Semi's. He still wasn't good enough.

I'm not arguing against Jack, just putting some perspective on things.

Getting far in cups means extra income so an opportunity to use it to improve the team. Using your logic then the league and Europe are meaningless too because we never win those.

[mal]

Think that’s where it would depend how you define success.

I enjoyed the Mowbrey, McLeish, Stubbs, part of Lennons time and part of Collins time a lot more than I enjoyed Ross team last season. Regardless of what any stats on Wikipedia say.

I really just think it comes back to different people wanting different things. Some people just want points on the board and are only interested in the end result.

Other people want to be entertained along the way.

I don’t think either are right or wrong.

I largely agree with you but, since we're talking about sporting competitions, nobody can reasonably argue that JR has been unsuccessful so far, whether or not they've enjoyed his time in charge as much as they have some other managers. Steve Davis is undeniably a more successful snooker player than Alex Higgins, even though he may have been less entertaining to watch.

[bingo70]

I largely agree with you but, since we're talking about sporting competitions, nobody can reasonably argue that JR has been unsuccessful so far, whether or not they've enjoyed his time in charge as much as they have some other managers. Steve Davis is undeniably a more successful snooker player than Alex Higgins, even though he may have been less entertaining to watch.

Aye, that’s fair and wouldnt argue with that.

I said earlier on that if there was a gun held to my head and had to decide success or not I would say success. He’s largely done what’s asked of him.

[Since452]

I suppose everyone finds different things entertaining. I think the Motherwell, Ross County, St Johnstone and two Rangers games have been very entertaining. All games were ones i think we've played well in.

[Since452]

I don’t know if we’ll ever know whether or not Fenlon was good enough.

He had a good first season, easing us away from relegation trouble. He had a good league finish during his second season - helped by an on loan Leigh Griffiths who he brought back and helped improve immeasurably as a player. He got to a couple of Scottish cup finals, which we rarely did back then.

Yes - there were a couple of scuddings and we hadn’t started his final season well.

Felon’s undoing was an utterly honking final summer transfer window - which may or may not have been his fault. And he wasn’t sacked, he saw the writing on the wall for that group of players and chose to walk.

Jack Ross has a similarly mixed record, given what they both inherited. His undoing may yet be an abject final summer transfer window, which may or may not have been his fault.

The frustrating thing is that he decided to walk after a home derby defeat to Hearts in which we absolutely battered them and did everything but score. We could have won by 4 or 5 that night. Hearts scored from a hit and hope from about 30 yards. Same old story. I felt a bit sorry for Fenlon. We were a bit of a mess off the park about that time and i think he did reasonably well overall. I'm sure there were protests outside the ground that night. Wasn't all directed at Fenlon.

[munchar]

And possibly unfairly as well, because I’ve thought we’ve been pretty crap for a lot of this season, the cup run is great but our league form has been absolutely honking, we’ve put in some of the worst performances I’ve seen from a Hibs team and right now, in the league, are well below where I’d have accepted for the season when we went into it.

However, PB makes a good point that football is a moving thing and circumstances etc change, so if I take that thinking I can probably cut JR some slack and reassess where we are, given he’s been without Doidge, Magennis, Hallberg, Mackay, Murphy etc through injury, given the let down of the transfer window where he wasn’t given adequate players in two key positions (centre half and striker) where the lack of cover has left him badly exposed.

Fot the Euro exit, he was let down by one of his most experienced players, and through lack of cover he’s had to do without his best centre half after a ridiculous red card at Ibrox.

He’s not been able to rest Nisbet, who’s played through injury, or Boyle whose covered all sorts of miles for club and country.

He’s had to contend with covid outbreaks in the team and had to play players out of form because there was no cover. He’s had to deal with Josh Doig’s imminent but never materialising transfer and keep playing him.

So maybe my opinion that he’s not showing enough that he can get a tune out of this team and we should be thinking of moving him on if things don’t improve, is a bit harsh and he’s doing alright?

Granted we’ve had injuries, but I don’t agree he’s been “forced” to play players.
I’m not sure missing out on a centre half is an excuse, as he rates Porteous very highly & his partner Hanlon is his captain. Daz is an adequate deputy for cover. Striker possibly a miss with Doidge being injured, but he’s still had Scott & Gullan to call on, he’s chose not to. If Gullan deemed not good enough, loan or release him. Stevenson could come in to cover Doig. He’s given him a new contract, so must still fancy him. Allan started in cup tie at Tannadice & was outstanding. Came of at Ibrox after red card for tactical reasons and then dumped again. Won us the game as a late sub at Perth, then had 4 & 8 minutes as a reward. Gogic another player he signed but choosing not to play.
So while it’s not ideal missing key players, he does have options he’s choosing not to select.

[greenlex]

Granted we’ve had injuries, but I don’t agree he’s been “forced” to play players.
I’m not sure missing out on a centre half is an excuse, as he rates Porteous very highly & his partner Hanlon is his captain. Daz is an adequate deputy for cover. Striker possibly a miss with Doidge being injured, but he’s still had Scott & Gullan to call on, he’s chose not to. If Gullan deemed not good enough, loan or release him. Stevenson could come in to cover Doig. He’s given him a new contract, so must still fancy him. Allan started in cup tie at Tannadice & was outstanding. Came of at Ibrox after red card for tactical reasons and then dumped again. Won us the game as a late sub at Perth, then had 4 & 8 minutes as a reward. Gogic another player he signed but choosing not to play.
So while it’s not ideal missing key players, he does have options he’s choosing not to select.

He sees them all every day at training. He’s setting up teams to play against differing oppositions. He knows better than us who may be capable of what over 90 mins. We don’t know the details of knocks or illness etc. There will be lots of reasons for selections on any given day. It’s not as easy as you think. I’ll add his job actually depends on it so it won’t be that experimental.

[munchar]

He sees them all every day at training. He’s setting up teams to play against differing oppositions. He knows better than us who may be capable of what over 90 mins. We don’t know the details of knocks or illness etc. There will be lots of reasons for selections on any given day. It’s not as easy as you think. I’ll add his job actually depends on it so it won’t be that experimental.

The point I was making is he doesn’t have to pick players who aren’t fit or fatigued. He’s got players there to step in. Players he’s happy to have in the squad or he wouldn’t have signed them or extended their contracts.

[hibeerealist]

I personally don’t think poor recruitment and injuries can be considered as mitigating factors.

The recruitment, he is a big part of that team and while it’s Mathie that’s had to carry the blame so far, I don’t think it’s fair Ross doesn’t take any responsibility for it. Assuming it was all down to Mathie then does that not mean that Mathie should have got more credit for building the team that finished 3rd last season? I don’t think It can work both ways where Ross gets the credit if recruitment goes well but takes absolutely no responsibility for it when it goes wrong.

Injuries are just part and parcel of football and happens to all teams. The fact we’ve not got a squad to deal with that goes back to the previous point.

With regards to the covid break meaning a build up of fixtures, I would also argue that with the amount of games we’ve got in quick succession he’s not rotated the squad effectively enough when there’s been opportunities to do so.

Despite all that, in answer to the OP’s question, I think I would probably say that he has been a success. Not my idea of entertainment so I’d be quite happy if he left tomorrow but looking at the results in black and white he’s done what was asked of him and got us through a difficult period last year during covid.

I don’t think Jack Ross is a bad manager, i just don’t like the way his team plays.


Great post Bingo70, I think the silent majority of the Hibs support would agree with most of what you have written evidenced by the the crowds we are currently drawing and the cup final tickets disappointingly not snapped up.

[J-C]

The point I was making is he doesn’t have to pick players who aren’t fit or fatigued. He’s got players there to step in. Players he’s happy to have in the squad or he wouldn’t have signed them or extended their contracts.


The team is in need of fresh legs, what has suddenly happened to Gogic, Wright who he used a lot as fresh legs , add Allan and Gullan to that, the odd 5 mins here and there is not enough. Can't complain about small squad/ injuries etc, when there's 3-4 players there he could bring in and play.

[jeffers]

The team is in need of fresh legs, what has suddenly happened to Gogic, Wright who he used a lot as fresh legs , add Allan and Gullan to that, the odd 5 mins here and there is not enough. Can't complain about small squad/ injuries etc, when there's 3-4 players there he could bring in and play.

As an example I thought Newell was dreadful on Saturday, amazed he lasted until the 82nd minute. I fully expect him to start tomorrow though.

[greenlex]

The team is in need of fresh legs, what has suddenly happened to Gogic, Wright who he used a lot as fresh legs , add Allan and Gullan to that, the odd 5 mins here and there is not enough. Can't complain about small squad/ injuries etc, when there's 3-4 players there he could bring in and play.

Dunno about fresh legs. It’s desperate fur someone on the park to convert one or two of the chances we are creating.

[Danderhall Hibs]

The team is in need of fresh legs, what has suddenly happened to Gogic, Wright who he used a lot as fresh legs , add Allan and Gullan to that, the odd 5 mins here and there is not enough. Can't complain about small squad/ injuries etc, when there's 3-4 players there he could bring in and play.

Both written off by the fans after making a couple of mistakes.

[MWHIBBIES]

The team is in need of fresh legs, what has suddenly happened to Gogic, Wright who he used a lot as fresh legs , add Allan and Gullan to that, the odd 5 mins here and there is not enough. Can't complain about small squad/ injuries etc, when there's 3-4 players there he could bring in and play.

Its not in need of fresh legs, we were going right to the end no problem on Saturday.

Those players, Allan aside, are downgrades. Thats why they don't play tbh.

[matty_f]

Granted we’ve had injuries, but I don’t agree he’s been “forced” to play players.
I’m not sure missing out on a centre half is an excuse, as he rates Porteous very highly & his partner Hanlon is his captain. Daz is an adequate deputy for cover. Striker possibly a miss with Doidge being injured, but he’s still had Scott & Gullan to call on, he’s chose not to. If Gullan deemed not good enough, loan or release him. Stevenson could come in to cover Doig. He’s given him a new contract, so must still fancy him. Allan started in cup tie at Tannadice & was outstanding. Came of at Ibrox after red card for tactical reasons and then dumped again. Won us the game as a late sub at Perth, then had 4 & 8 minutes as a reward. Gogic another player he signed but choosing not to play.
So while it’s not ideal missing key players, he does have options he’s choosing not to select.

McGregor has been sent off twice this season, i don’t think he’s the player he was even last season.

To play Stevenson instead of Doig involves a change of system or playing Stevenson in a role that he’s not at his best.

Gogic isn’t a like for like for anyone in the midfield and you can tell by how limited his minutes in the pitch have been this season that he’s well being JDH and Newell in the middle, and again, if you play Gogic the system has to change.

Gullan would have been away in the summer if we’d signed a striker, Ross evidently doesn’t see him as a top 4 striker - Scott probably falls into that category as well.

Allan’s hot and cold as well, you can’t rely on him one week to the next to impact games, and he’d have been away in the summer, along with Wright, if transfers had gone to plan.

[munchar]

McGregor has been sent off twice this season, i don’t think he’s the player he was even last season.

To play Stevenson instead of Doig involves a change of system or playing Stevenson in a role that he’s not at his best.

Gogic isn’t a like for like for anyone in the midfield and you can tell by how limited his minutes in the pitch have been this season that he’s well being JDH and Newell in the middle, and again, if you play Gogic the system has to change.

Gullan would have been away in the summer if we’d signed a striker, Ross evidently doesn’t see him as a top 4 striker - Scott probably falls into that category as well.

Allan’s hot and cold as well, you can’t rely on him one week to the next to impact games, and he’d have been away in the summer, along with Wright, if transfers had gone to plan.

All good points, but his job is to manage the players. If struggling for numbers, he will have to adapt & work on systems on the training pitch. That’s what he’s paid to do. If he has to change the system, so be it.

Regarding Allan, I think he gets unfair criticism. The way he plays, he’s a game changer. Lots of times the things he tries don’t come off, but when they do, there’s usually a goal scoring opportunity, & so he’s classed as being hot and cold. Nisbet went through a run of games where he was very poor. Is he any different to Allan in that regard?

[LaMotta]

All good points, but his job is to manage the players. If struggling for numbers, he will have to adapt & work on systems on the training pitch. That’s what he’s paid to do. If he has to change the system, so be it.

Regarding Allan, I think he gets unfair criticism. The way he plays, he’s a game changer. Lots of times the things he tries don’t come off, but when they do, there’s usually a goal scoring opportunity, & so he’s classed as being hot and cold. Nisbet went through a run of games where he was very poor. Is he any different to Allan in that regard?


Allan only got 8 minutes on Saturday to try to influence the game. Motherwell scored with half an hour to go. It was mad that he wasnt given more time, given his heroics the week previously.:cb

[hibee-boys]

Deary me, he’s got us to 2 semi finals, 2 finals and finished 3rd last year. There are some fans on here with very short memories. Yes, we’ve been on a poor run but the guy has got enough credit in the bank to give him the chance to turn this around.

[J-C]

Deary me, he’s got us to 2 semi finals, 2 finals and finished 3rd last year. There are some fans on here with very short memories. Yes, we’ve been on a poor run but the guy has got enough credit in the bank to give him the chance to turn this around.


No ones denying all that, success was last season and now we're discussing this season and what he's done, went from 8/10 tp a 5/10. Forget the poor window and look at the fact that the players the has were good enough for 3rd last season, so why has it not worked now.

[blackpoolhibs]

A manager who's proved he can get a consistant team together, plus get us to Hampden numerous times since signing, should not be questioned with his first bad run of results.

A manager who has done what he has, deserves the opportinity to try again, he's done it before and i think he will do it again.

As for not being exciting enough, he had us playing decent exciting stuff early this season, but two of the players who were the central to us scoring and playing well got long term injuries.

Add in a poor transfer window which resulted in Mathie being sacked, tell me who's to blame, especially the way Jack Ross told us where he wanted strengthening, and we've all seen that never happened.

Now we are in a position where we have a couple of players already signed coming in the new year, and a lot of players who are fringe players out of contract in the summer.

With the club signing players we probably think are important players for us on long term contracts, with Ryan Porteous the only one not done so yet, we are in a position for a change, where we dont have to pay players off we dont really want, and we have the nucleous of the squad under contract.

I want Jack Ross to be able to bring in the players he wants in the next 2 windows, as we will be in a position of strength for the first time in a while regarding signings, even if we lose one or two, the money they will generate should be used well by Ross to make us stronger as a squad and a team hopefully.

[Tyler Durden]

I don’t know if we’ll ever know whether or not Fenlon was good enough.

He had a good first season, easing us away from relegation trouble. He had a good league finish during his second season - helped by an on loan Leigh Griffiths who he brought back and helped improve immeasurably as a player. He got to a couple of Scottish cup finals, which we rarely did back then.

Yes - there were a couple of scuddings and we hadn’t started his final season well.

Felon’s undoing was an utterly honking final summer transfer window - which may or may not have been his fault. And he wasn’t sacked, he saw the writing on the wall for that group of players and chose to walk.

Jack Ross has a similarly mixed record, given what they both inherited. His undoing may yet be an abject final summer transfer window, which may or may not have been his fault.

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.

[Since452]

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.

:agree: No matter what people say about Ross, he is statistically one of the best managers in our history even with this poor run we're on. I liked Pat but Ross is a completely different level of manager.

[CentreLine]

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.

Great post. 👏

[SMAXXA]

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.

Bang on 👏

[B.H.F.C]

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.

I’m not the biggest fan of Jack Ross, but you’re right, really no comparison with him and Fenlon.

[FilipinoHibs]

I’m not the biggest fan of Jack Ross, but you’re right, really no comparison with him and Fenlon.

Think he errs on the safety side but a good manager of players, tactics and sports science. Eloquent and intelligent. We are lucky to have him. When he goes many will come to realise his qualities and regret all the hounding.

[munchar]

Think he errs on the safety side but a good manager of players, tactics and sports science. Eloquent and intelligent. We are lucky to have him. When he goes many will come to realise his qualities and regret all the hounding.

Don’t think anyone is doubting his qualities. Some prefer a more attractive style of football though. Personally, I’ll follow Hibs whoever the manager is & whatever system they play. Be nice to see a free flowing attractive style with players who are creative & play off the cuff. Players that people will pay to watch. A winning team doesn’t always bring supporters back every week if the teams grinding results out. Suppose if given the choice, results or entertainment? Difficult to get both.

[JimBHibees]

A manager who's proved he can get a consistant team together, plus get us to Hampden numerous times since signing, should not be questioned with his first bad run of results.

A manager who has done what he has, deserves the opportinity to try again, he's done it before and i think he will do it again.

As for not being exciting enough, he had us playing decent exciting stuff early this season, but two of the players who were the central to us scoring and playing well got long term injuries.

Add in a poor transfer window which resulted in Mathie being sacked, tell me who's to blame, especially the way Jack Ross told us where he wanted strengthening, and we've all seen that never happened.

Now we are in a position where we have a couple of players already signed coming in the new year, and a lot of players who are fringe players out of contract in the summer.

With the club signing players we probably think are important players for us on long term contracts, with Ryan Porteous the only one not done so yet, we are in a position for a change, where we dont have to pay players off we dont really want, and we have the nucleous of the squad under contract.

I want Jack Ross to be able to bring in the players he wants in the next 2 windows, as we will be in a position of strength for the first time in a while regarding signings, even if we lose one or two, the money they will generate should be used well by Ross to make us stronger as a squad and a team hopefully.

Good post he has already shown here he can do a very good job and as you say should not be getting chatted about re sacking on his first bad run especially when they are some mitigations e.g Covid injuries etc. Nothing ever improves in a straight line hopefully he can pick up some decent results so we can focus on another final he has managed us to at the same time as strengthening the squad in next month or two.

[The Modfather]

:agree: No matter what people say about Ross, he is statistically one of the best managers in our history even with this poor run we're on. I liked Pat but Ross is a completely different level of manager.

While I don’t disagree with your point. Solskjaer also has the 3rd best win % in Man U’s history…

[HibeeHibernian4]

Third place and several finals. That’s success for this club. Winning a final would probably propel him upto the heady heights of being one of our most successful managers.

Look at all the circumstances, think about what a new manager would mean. We’ve been here many times before.

Let’s not be hasty!

History, facts and everything else support you so of course some people will want to disagree with it. :rolleyes:

[Fergus52]

As an example I thought Newell was dreadful on Saturday, amazed he lasted until the 82nd minute. I fully expect him to start tomorrow though.

He didn't have his best game for hibs but I don't know where you're getting dreadful from.

I only remember him losing the ball once or twice, and he made several tackles and kept possession ticking over well.

Wasn't quite as effective going forward or progressing the ball into the final third as in recent games but dreadful is a massive stretch imo.

[MWHIBBIES]

As an example I thought Newell was dreadful on Saturday, amazed he lasted until the 82nd minute. I fully expect him to start tomorrow though.

No chance was he dreadful. Was running the show in our best period 2nd half.

He correctly starts every week.

[andudare2]

Don't want to start a Fenlon debate but couldn't let this pass..... Jack Ross is miles ahead of Pat Fenlon.

Fenlon didn't "ease us away from relegation trouble". We avoided it on the 2nd last game after he took over well before Xmas!

His "good league finish" second season was a 7th place finish. Jack Ross was 3rd by a margin of 7 points.

Fenlon's football was awful, night and day from Jack Ross IMO. And let's not even get started on some of his results in "big games". I appreciate some people took a shine to Fenlon... he was a nice guy. But there is no comparison to Jack Ross. Check out their win % for starters.
👍👍👍

[jeffers]

No chance was he dreadful. Was running the show in our best period 2nd half.

He correctly starts every week.

Correctly starts every week regardless of his form in previous games ? Explains part of the issues we have.

I thought he was dreadful and wasn’t running any show, but then I see that often being attributed to him…..

[CentreLine]

Correctly starts every week regardless of his form in previous games ? Explains part of the issues we have.

I thought he was dreadful and wasn’t running any show, but then I see that often being attributed to him…..

I’m with MWHIBBIES Newell is consistently a vital part of our team and is correctly listed on the team sheet every week. Excellent player

[Hibs90]

Deary me, he’s got us to 2 semi finals, 2 finals and finished 3rd last year. There are some fans on here with very short memories. Yes, we’ve been on a poor run but the guy has got enough credit in the bank to give him the chance to turn this around.

Given who was left in the competitions, we failed on that front last year. Horsing at home to Hearts is another game that sticks in the throat. It's more than 'a poor run'.

[jeffers]

I’m with MWHIBBIES Newell is consistently a vital part of our team and is correctly listed on the team sheet every week. Excellent player

I’d suggest if he’s vital it would explain our recent run of form. He was excellent v the Huns, doesn’t put in a performance anywhere like that often enough.

[Jones28]

Given who was left in the competitions, we failed on that front last year. Horsing at home to Hearts is another game that sticks in the throat. It's more than 'a poor run'.

It’s a poor run. What else is it? Disastrous? An abomination?

[Fergus52]

Correctly starts every week regardless of his form in previous games ? Explains part of the issues we have.

I thought he was dreadful and wasn’t running any show, but then I see that often being attributed to him…..

He was by no means excellent on Saturday but describing his performance as dreadful is nonsense

He had the best pass completion rate out of any player on the pitch, made 4 tackles (2nd most after JDH), was only dispossessed once and made the joint most successful dribbles of anyone on our team (with Boyle).

If that's a dreadful performance then the whole team was terrible and you must have very high standards.

What specifically did he do wrong?

[HibbyDave]

Thread title… is JR a success or not?

If we get anything from the final other than skelped by at least 3 I’ll be amazed.
So, success?? Not for me so far.

Hope I’m proved wrong.

[lord bunberry]

Thread title… is JR a success or not?

If we get anything from the final other than skelped by at least 3 I’ll be amazed.
So, success?? Not for me so far.

Hope I’m proved wrong.
I don’t think you want to be proved wrong. I think like a lot of so called hibs fans you’d take pleasure in being right in your opinion about Ross. You’d rather be right than hibs winning the cup.

[mcfly]

Not for me.

Dull uninspired football, no plan b and spouts the same info in every interview

The huge drop in crowds suggest fans aren’t impressed.

I think he must be under real pressure

[Coco Bryce]

He's not got a clue. Must be the most overrated manager in Scottish Football.

[Steven79]

It's time for a new manager...

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[hibbyboy1]

Get a new manager in now before the winter break. It's going from bad to worse.

[Pagan Hibernia]

His race looks like it might well be run. After a bright start it was desperate stuff after the missed penalty.

he’ll get to the cup final but a humping at Hampden might settle it. Especially if it’s followed shortly after by a poor derby display.

if he can somehow win both of those it might change things.

[LunasBoots]

Think its coming to a end, we simply cannot go on like this, JR on the touchline just staring and saying nothing isnt helping, Livi where poor and we are worse. Currently cannot see where our next win is going to come.

[Gmack7]

Has he been mutually consented yet

[GreenCastle]

Well he's now played Livingston x8 times.

Won x3
Lost x3
Draws x2

Not very successful against them.

[Jim44]

Definitely not a complete failure but far from a success. Tonight’s result will stamp him out as a failure. Better he leaves quietly by the back door tonight or tomorrow morning.

[GordonHFC]

The man is too arrogant to resign.

[Wakeyhibee]

I was willing to give him time, but I hope Hibs have been lining up candidates.

[LunasBoots]

I was willing to give him time, but I hope Hibs have been lining up candidates.


And players.

[chippy]

Alex Neill anyone? Bumping his gums to the Record tonight. I thought Ross would turn it round by now but looks lost.
Who to bring in. I’m tempted to say Lennon as I think he’d get a lot more out of these players. But maybe not gonna happen re the nature of his departure. Neill is interesting. Don’t fancy Mc Innes nor Davidson. Scott Brown?

[roo62]

Alex Neill anyone? Bumping his gums to the Record tonight. I thought Ross would turn it round by now but looks lost.
Who to bring in. I’m tempted to say Lennon as I think he’d get a lot more out of these players. But maybe not gonna happen re the nature of his departure. Neill is interesting. Don’t fancy Mc Innes nor Davidson. Scott Brown?
Is Sean Maloney a possibility?

[Wakeyhibee]

And players.

Agree, and maybe he didnt get the backing this summer but theres enough there to do a damn site better. I just dont see him getting the best out of the team, his tactics are questionable and the style has me as non plussed about Hibs since Duffy, its that dull.

[Forza Fred]

I think tonight’s performance at Livi may have rendered the original question obsolete.

[MWHIBBIES]

The man is too arrogant to resign.

Horrendous post.

[Ronniekirk]

His race looks like it might well be run. After a bright start it was desperate stuff after the missed penalty.

he’ll get to the cup final but a humping at Hampden might settle it. Especially if it’s followed shortly after by a poor derby display.

if he can somehow win both of those it might change things.

St Mirren will now think they can beat us on Saturday If that happens we are then fair game fir all the other bottom six clubs
We are in free fall and look a shambles
It’s hard to see how he can turn this round
I thought he would have to stay and get next window to improve things
But our last nine games show we are the worst team and conceding and not scoring
Add in hardly creating and it’s got relegation written all over it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Forza Fred]

I think tonight’s performance at Livi may have rendered the original question obsolete.

[GordonHFC]

Horrendous post.

What is horrendous about it?

[MWHIBBIES]

What is horrendous about it?

The whole thing. Personal abuse, lies, completely made up. Its like, the textbook awful post.

[GordonHFC]

The whole thing. Personal abuse, lies, completely made up. Its like, the textbook awful post.

And how the hell do you know what I know about him. Absolutely nothing. Lies and completely made up. So says you.

[MWHIBBIES]

And how the hell do you know what I know about him. Absolutely nothing. Lies and completely made up. So says you.

Yes, completely made up. Yes, says me. Pathetic post. You can want rid of a manager without calling him ''too arrogant to resign''. Nothing whatsoever so suggest he is arrogant and he is quite right not to want to resign. I'd be extremely worried if he didn't believe in himself to turnit around.

[GordonHFC]

Yes, completely made up. Yes, says me. Pathetic post. You can want rid of a manager without calling him ''too arrogant to resign''. Nothing whatsoever so suggest he is arrogant and he is quite right not to want to resign. I'd be extremely worried if he didn't believe in himself to turnit around.

Good for you. Yes I have wanted him out for long enough based on what I know. Not based on a whim. Again I say NOT completely made up. End of.

[lord bunberry]

The man is too arrogant to resign.
I wish you were less arrogant when posting :rolleyes:

[Jones28]

Good for you. Yes I have wanted him out for long enough based on what I know. Not based on a whim. Again I say NOT completely made up. End of.

Then share your knowledge, he’s arrogant? Arrogant how?

[HibbyDave]

I don’t think you want to be proved wrong. I think like a lot of so called hibs fans you’d take pleasure in being right in your opinion about Ross. You’d rather be right than hibs winning the cup.

I know very little about you “Lord Bunberry” so I’ll just say that after 50+ years watching Hibs I’m pretty sure I that my credentials are well enough established. I suspect people who claim to be a lord may have bigger issues. Of course IF you are a Lord you may well be Lord Foulkes undercover.

[Brightside]

Jack Ross is anything but arrogant.

[Coco Bryce]

He's defo not arrogant.

Incompetent yes.

[Northernhibee]

I think he’s a bit too nice. He needed to ensure that the summer transfer window wasn’t as much of a disaster and I can’t see him going through the team on a night like last night well enough.

I don’t think he’s arrogant, I don’t think he’s incompetent, I just think he’s not a strong enough character.