Death Penalty

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Not a fan of it but I’d bring it back for this couple.

I’ve never followed a story and felt so stomach churningly sick as I have with this. Genuinely makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. Kill them slowly and painfully with twice the suffering that poor lad had to endure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-59489765

[Pretty Boy]

Two things jump out at me when I read things like that.

Firstly I don't understand how anyone who isn't a psychopath can do that to a child. I feel bad and racked with guilt when I give my daughter a row even when she is entirely in the wrong. 100% of the time I end up apologising a short time later. To systematically brutalise a child must require a complete lack of empathy that I just can't comprehend.

Secondly, how can a case like this slip through the net? A child so weak he was struggling to pick up a pillow and no one anywhere in the system intervened to anywhere close to a great enough extent. I understand removing a child from a parent is hugely undesirable but this outcome is a million times worse.

An utterly grim read.

[Sir David Gray]

There's genuinely no words to describe people who are capable of things like this, it actually beggars belief.

Same with the **** who were in the news the other day for abusing their biological son Tony Hudgell to the point where he needed to have his legs amputated.

I am generally opposed to capital punishment but I would have absolutely no issue with wicked people like this being executed.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm a bit broken in the head at times where I can watch or see things that have zero effect on me or don't bother me at all, when I read that story the other day I was nearly in tears for the wee man, they are the total **** of the earth

[Bristolhibby]

Horrendous. I really hope their time in prison is relentless. That they suffer a fraction of the fear that that poor wee boy suffered at their hands.

I can’t say I ever agree with the death penalty but IMHO they should never be let out.

Also, we have to look at the lack of funding and serious pressure that social care is under.

Is it any surprise with stressed out case workers and minimal numbers that we end up with cases like this. Something I’m sure the Government won’t link together.

J

[hibsbollah]

I read stories like that and I just feel a massive sense of sadness and
anger and loss, but I don’t jump from that to thinking the best solution is to kill the killers as a consequence. It doesn’t work in my head, what does killing a killer say about how we judge the morality of killing? If we do that the cycle doesn’t stop.

Keep them locked up forever so they can’t do it again, try to rehabilitate if you can but never take the chance of them being put in a position where they could reoffend.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

I read stories like that and I just feel a massive sense of sadness and
anger and loss, but I don’t jump from that to thinking the best solution is to kill the killers as a consequence. It doesn’t work in my head, what does killing a killer say about how we judge the morality of killing? If we do that the cycle doesn’t stop.

Keep them locked up forever so they can’t do it again, try to rehabilitate if you can but never take the chance of them being put in a position where they could reoffend.

I take your point but in this case, you can’t rehabilitate that. Why would you even want to. Gouge their f*****g eyeballs out. Slowly.

[Sir David Gray]

I take your point but in this case, you can’t rehabilitate that. Why would you even want to. Gouge their f*****g eyeballs out. Slowly.

I've just listened to recordings of some of the phone calls that were made on the news and they were absolutely horrific.

The wee boy crying and saying "No-one is going to feed me." was really distressing to listen to.

These animals are beyond any help or rehabilitation and in my opinion should be executed for what they've done to that poor, defenceless wee boy.

He didn't stand a chance.

[hibsbollah]

I take your point but in this case, you can’t rehabilitate that. Why would you even want to. Gouge their f*****g eyeballs out. Slowly.

Hard to know what to say. I don’t judge anybody for feeling like that. I just don’t feel the same.

[Jones28]

Death would be too kind to ***** like these. They need a long long prison sentence with lots of other nutters who have a particular dislike of child abusers. Then they might get to experience some of the things they put that poor wee boy through.

[lord bunberry]

They should have to live the rest of their lives in isolation in a dark cell with minimal rations to keep them alive. Sadly they’ll get nothing of the kind and they’ll live out their lives in prison.

[tmb1875]

There’s no rehabilitating evil. Years of torture followed by public execution is the only answer for these folk. How many times do you hear rapists and murderers being let out only to do it again. These folk are broken in the brain.


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[McD]

Really struggling to find words to describe the fury, upset, heartbreak and horror reading about this pair.

I don’t actually know what punishment could be deemed enough for monsters who can do this to a child

[KeithTheHibby]

Death would be too kind to ***** like these. They need a long long prison sentence with lots of other nutters who have a particular dislike of child abusers. Then they might get to experience some of the things they put that poor wee boy through.

At the taxpayers expense? Nah **** them, death penalty totally appropriate for these evil *******s.

[Keith_M]

I can understand the feelings of some people saying they would bring the death penalty back for specific crimes, like this one.

When you read horrendous stories like this, it's a perfectly normal, emotional response to the horrific abuse this child has had to go through.


My first response was, if they didn't want the child, then why not give him to somebody that would have cared for and appreciated him? I'm sure there's loads of us that would have volunteered.

[Sir David Gray]

I can understand the feelings of some people saying they would bring the death penalty back for specific crimes, like this one.

When you read horrendous stories like this, it's a perfectly normal, emotional response to the horrific abuse this child has had to go through.


My first response was, if they didn't want the child, then why not give him to somebody that would have cared for and appreciated him? I'm sure there's loads of us that would have volunteered.

From reading the press reports it sounds to me like they are sadistic and enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering on a defenceless child. They had no intention nor desire to give him up for adoption, ridiculing him, beating him and depriving him of any happiness was too much fun for these evil ********.

It's beyond my comprehension how anyone could act like that towards any child, let alone their own flesh and blood. I heard more recordings this morning of Arthur crying in the house and saying "no-one loves me" and I confess that I sat on my bed and cried which it takes a lot for me to do.

These people are the **** of the earth and I believe the only appropriate punishment in this instance is the death penalty.

[heretoday]

I read stories like that and I just feel a massive sense of sadness and
anger and loss, but I don’t jump from that to thinking the best solution is to kill the killers as a consequence. It doesn’t work in my head, what does killing a killer say about how we judge the morality of killing? If we do that the cycle doesn’t stop.

Keep them locked up forever so they can’t do it again, try to rehabilitate if you can but never take the chance of them being put in a position where they could reoffend.

Correct.

[Lee Marvin]

I heard this on the news last night and had to turn it off. I was nearly in tears and couldn't listen to it any longer.

I'am sorry, these cannot be rehabilitated and even if they could, I they don;t deserve to. I actually feel that death is too kind for them and would have them in solitary confinement in a cell with nothing but a toilet for the rest of their days. Put it this way, if I were a grandparent or father of this boy I wouldn't be in control of my actions if they were ever released.

[Hibbyradge]

I read stories like that and I just feel a massive sense of sadness and
anger and loss, but I don’t jump from that to thinking the best solution is to kill the killers as a consequence. It doesn’t work in my head, what does killing a killer say about how we judge the morality of killing? If we do that the cycle doesn’t stop.

Keep them locked up forever so they can’t do it again, try to rehabilitate if you can but never take the chance of them being put in a position where they could reoffend.

I haven't read the story, and I have no intention of doing so, but as horrific a crime it may be, I can't condone capital punishment and I think countries that do kill their own citizens are barbaric.

Your post sums up my feelings.

[Sir David Gray]

The father's been jailed for 21 years and his partner for a minimum of 29 years.

Absolutely outrageous that it's not a whole life sentence for the pair of them in my opinion.

[He's here!]

I heard this on the news last night and had to turn it off. I was nearly in tears and couldn't listen to it any longer.

I'am sorry, these cannot be rehabilitated and even if they could, I they don;t deserve to. I actually feel that death is too kind for them and would have them in solitary confinement in a cell with nothing but a toilet for the rest of their days. Put it this way, if I were a grandparent or father of this boy I wouldn't be in control of my actions if they were ever released.

Re the original post, I don't imagine too many are 'fans' of the death penalty but as you say if this was a case which related to someone in your own family, or somebody you knew, I think it would be a lot harder to step back from it and say you're OK for the people who carried out such horrific crimes to still be walking the earth (even if it's from within a prison cell).

[Bridge hibs]

The father's been jailed for 21 years and his partner for a minimum of 29 years.

Absolutely outrageous that it's not a whole life sentence for the pair of them in my opinion.Hard labour for the length of those terms, drag the ****ers out of their beds at 0600 and have them grafting until 1800 hrs x 7 days a week, rain or shine, break them to pieces

[Peanut Shaz]

What I cannot get my head round is where were the extended family when this was going on. One of the Grandmother's were on the news last night having her say about the parents. Why did she not intervene? Where were the other extended family? I have 2 Grandchildren and if I for one nano second thought something was amiss I would move heaven and earth to get to the bottom of it. I know they probably lived a very chaotic lifestyle but surely someone must have suspected something.

[Hannah_hfc]

The father's been jailed for 21 years and his partner for a minimum of 29 years.

Absolutely outrageous that it's not a whole life sentence for the pair of them in my opinion.

Completely agree, it’s a pathetic sentencing. I’m no legal expert but I have to wonder how they did not end up with life sentences each.

I read somewhere that the judge allowed the jury to have a minutes silence for Arthur in the courtroom along with excusing them from any future jury duty due to the nature of this case. Just goes to show how horrific this was.


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[Onceinawhile]

At the taxpayers expense? Nah **** them, death penalty totally appropriate for these evil *******s.

The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment.

Hopefully these ***** don't see light of day again.

[Mon Dieu4]

What I cannot get my head round is where were the extended family when this was going on. One of the Grandmother's were on the news last night having her say about the parents. Why did she not intervene? Where were the other extended family? I have 2 Grandchildren and if I for one nano second thought something was amiss I would move heaven and earth to get to the bottom of it. I know they probably lived a very chaotic lifestyle but surely someone must have suspected something.

Sure I read it was one of the grandparents that reported it all to the social services in the first place

[Peanut Shaz]

Sure I read it was one of the grandparents that reported it all to the social services in the first place

I still can't comprehend how if she thought it was so serious that she didn't remove the boy from the house. To hell with the consequences, worry about that later. Maybe I'm being naive but it sure as he'll wouldn't be any of my Grandchildren. Social Services should be held to account as well.

[lord bunberry]

I still can't comprehend how if she thought it was so serious that she didn't remove the boy from the house. To hell with the consequences, worry about that later. Maybe I'm being naive but it sure as he'll wouldn't be any of my Grandchildren. Social Services should be held to account as well.
A lot of it happened during the lockdown, I’d imagine the grandparents were shielding. There’s only 2 people to blame here, it’s possible they didn’t let the grandparents see the wee one very often.

[Peanut Shaz]

A lot of it happened during the lockdown, I’d imagine the grandparents were shielding. There’s only 2 people to blame here, it’s possible they didn’t let the grandparents see the wee one very often.

Fair point. And absolutely there is no real blame lying with anyone else other than the parents. I suppose not all families have the same relationships as ours. I work in what would be classed as a a deprived area of Edinburgh and have knowledge of less serious cases of neglect. It's so so sad 😞

[lord bunberry]

Fair point. And absolutely there is no real blame lying with anyone else other than the parents. I suppose not all families have the same relationships as ours. I work in what would be classed as a a deprived area of Edinburgh and have knowledge of less serious cases of neglect. It's so so sad 😞
My partner works with disadvantaged kids in Midlothian, I have to tell her to stop sometimes when she’s telling me what goes on. I’m not really one to get emotional about things I see or hear, but when it’s children I can’t help it. Before I became a father it didn’t affect me nearly as much. I’ve actually found myself going and giving the wee one a cuddle after reading stuff like this. There really should be a tougher level of prison for people like this, it’s not right that they serve their time under the same conditions as someone who has committed a much lesser crime.

[McD]

My partner works with disadvantaged kids in Midlothian, I have to tell her to stop sometimes when she’s telling me what goes on. I’m not really one to get emotional about things I see or hear, but when it’s children I can’t help it. Before I became a father it didn’t affect me nearly as much. I’ve actually found myself going and giving the wee one a cuddle after reading stuff like this. There really should be a tougher level of prison for people like this, it’s not right that they serve their time under the same conditions as someone who has committed a much lesser crime.


I'm the same, things would affect me before becoming a parent, but that’s been magnified significantly since my daughter was born.

[Peanut Shaz]

My partner works with disadvantaged kids in Midlothian, I have to tell her to stop sometimes when she’s telling me what goes on. I’m not really one to get emotional about things I see or hear, but when it’s children I can’t help it. Before I became a father it didn’t affect me nearly as much. I’ve actually found myself going and giving the wee one a cuddle after reading stuff like this. There really should be a tougher level of prison for people like this, it’s not right that they serve their time under the same conditions as someone who has committed a much lesser crime.

Yep, I just can't understand how anyone could abuse a child in any way shape or form. Makes us realise how lucky we are to be able to give our kids/grandkids a loving family life and hopefully shield them from evil.

[lord bunberry]

Yep, I just can't understand how anyone could abuse a child in any way shape or form. Makes us realise how lucky we are to be able to give our kids/grandkids a loving family life and hopefully shield them from evil.
:top marks

[He's here!]

My partner works with disadvantaged kids in Midlothian, I have to tell her to stop sometimes when she’s telling me what goes on. I’m not really one to get emotional about things I see or hear, but when it’s children I can’t help it. Before I became a father it didn’t affect me nearly as much. I’ve actually found myself going and giving the wee one a cuddle after reading stuff like this. There really should be a tougher level of prison for people like this, it’s not right that they serve their time under the same conditions as someone who has committed a much lesser crime.

Agree with all that. 'Inhuman' is the correct description used by the judge in describing these people.

[Sir David Gray]

Good - hope the evil ******** get the life sentences they deserve.

The couple who killed six-year-old Arthur Labinjo-Hughes will have their sentences reviewed after claims they are too lenient.

Emma Tustin was jailed for 29 years on Friday for murder and child cruelty and Arthur's father, Thomas Hughes, was given 21 years for his manslaughter.

The Attorney General's Office said the jail terms will be reviewed to "determine whether they were too low".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-59532071

[Aldo]

Good - hope the evil ******** get the life sentences they deserve.

The couple who killed six-year-old Arthur Labinjo-Hughes will have their sentences reviewed after claims they are too lenient.

Emma Tustin was jailed for 29 years on Friday for murder and child cruelty and Arthur's father, Thomas Hughes, was given 21 years for his manslaughter.

The Attorney General's Office said the jail terms will be reviewed to "determine whether they were too low".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-59532071

It really is so simple. You commit a heinous crime you should never ever see the light of day again!


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[lucky]

I’ve never supported or believed in the death penalty but these two make it a case for brining it back. But if the U.K. were to bring the death penalty back it wouldn’t just be for perpetrators of crimes like this. It would get added to by political parties all the time. Whilst these two should never see freedom again I still think that as a civilised society we should not bring back the death penalty.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The innate capacity to care and nurture with compassion are human characteristics so describing those who have the opposite as inhuman is appropriate. I have to say that the time for a considered debate about capital punishment, isn't in the aftermath of a terrible incident like this. The question gets so polarised that it ends up looking like those who oppose it are standing up for the guilty. It is also inappropriate to have the same debate after a miscarriage of justice has been corrected.

[LongJohnBanger]

The problem with evil is...how do you punish it without becoming evil yourself?

You've got two adults completely dehumanising a child, totally oblivious or immune to the obvious physical and emotional suffering that they've inflicted upon him and then a mother of four has battered his head against a wall and taken pictures of him as he lay dying. Not only that, she's had the brass neck to dispute the evidence put in front of her and been permitted to not hear her sentencing. She should have been dragged up to the dock kicking and screaming if necessary.

Life imprisonment is not a suitable or comparable punishment. They might meet a nasty end inside but that's a byproduct of the incarceration the courts can hand out, not the punishment itself.

[Hibrandenburg]

I just can't bring myself to read an in depth report about how this poor wee boy was abused and killed, the headlines and snippets are enough to warn me that it would not do me good to do so.

I do know that if I was given the choice between a quick humane death or a life of incarceration, then I'd definitely choose death. I'm 100% against the death penalty for many reasons but in this case I'm against it because in my view it would be the lesser punishment compared to life behind bars as a child murderer.

[The_Exile]

Like quite a few other folk, I am totally desensitised to the vast majority of crazy stuff I see on the news these days. I'm aware of it but I'm very unemotional about a lot of it. Having followed this story since it broke, the footage she took of the wee one begging for food while he struggled to stand up. I had to switch the channel and I just took myself away from the living room and into the loo away from my own kids and just sobbed for about 10 minutes. I still feel a bit numb typing this and sort of thinking about it again.

As for the death penalty, I think it's certainly human nature to want to see death come to these two. I don't know how I feel about that, I want them to suffer in the most horrendous way possible and the death penalty is too easy and almost a reward for them. They would only suffer for a very short time. How do you deal with people like this? It's a difficult one. I fully expect them to get done in in prison if they're ever eventually let into the general population.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The outrage and disgust in such a case is shared by everyone. It's heart-breaking and deeply disturbing to think that anyone, let alone parents, could so mistreat a child. They are a depraved couple who will face the full force of the law.


However, for me the issue of capital punishment is non-negotiable on both moral and practical grounds. Morally, I see execution as an act of vengeance, and, as tempting as revenge might be in extreme cases, I don't think it should be the basis of the criminal justice system. If taking life is wrong, then the state taking life must also be wrong. A civilised and properly functioning society shouldn't be executing people. On practical grounds, I don't think capital punishment is sustainable. The first example of an innocent person being executed destroys its credibility, and there will always be miscarriages of justice. Society can't try to make amends for a miscarriage of justice to a dead person. So for me it's a non-starter.

[Hibrandenburg]

The outrage and disgust in such a case is shared by everyone. It's heart-breaking and deeply disturbing to think that anyone, let alone parents, could so mistreat a child. They are a depraved couple who will face the full force of the law.


However, for me the issue of capital punishment is non-negotiable on both moral and practical grounds. Morally, I see execution as an act of vengeance, and, as tempting as revenge might be in extreme cases, I don't think it should be the basis of the criminal justice system. If taking life is wrong, then the state taking life must also be wrong. A civilised and properly functioning society shouldn't be executing people. On practical grounds, I don't think capital punishment is sustainable. The first example of an innocent person being executed destroys its credibility, and there will always be miscarriages of justice. Society can't try to make amends for a miscarriage of justice to a dead person. So for me it's a non-starter.

Good post.

[Sir David Gray]

The outrage and disgust in such a case is shared by everyone. It's heart-breaking and deeply disturbing to think that anyone, let alone parents, could so mistreat a child. They are a depraved couple who will face the full force of the law.


However, for me the issue of capital punishment is non-negotiable on both moral and practical grounds. Morally, I see execution as an act of vengeance, and, as tempting as revenge might be in extreme cases, I don't think it should be the basis of the criminal justice system. If taking life is wrong, then the state taking life must also be wrong. A civilised and properly functioning society shouldn't be executing people. On practical grounds, I don't think capital punishment is sustainable. The first example of an innocent person being executed destroys its credibility, and there will always be miscarriages of justice. Society can't try to make amends for a miscarriage of justice to a dead person. So for me it's a non-starter.

I'm generally against capital punishment for the reasons you state under practical grounds, I find it unacceptable that any innocent person might be put to death. However what I'm proposing would only result in capital punishment being used in the most serious murder cases and where the defendant's guilt is beyond all reasonable doubt - two things which undoubtedly apply in this case.

I completely disagree on the issue of morality. I don't believe that someone who commits the most evil and depraved acts of abuse against a defenceless child deserves to live and any fear that either of them may have about effectively being put to sleep pales into insignificance when it's compared to the abhorrent torture and abuse that Arthur endured at the hands of these wicked ******** and the pain and despair he must have been feeling.

I know there's the argument of two wrongs don't make a right but for me these two fit the bill for capital punishment. Within the parameters of our current legal system they should be receiving whole-life terms and hopefully that is what happens at the conclusion of the review of their sentences. For them to have any prospect of release, regardless of how unlikely it might be, is totally unacceptable in my view and if we can't execute them I believe this is the only alternative which is acceptable.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm generally against capital punishment for the reasons you state under practical grounds, I find it unacceptable that any innocent person might be put to death. However what I'm proposing would only result in capital punishment being used in the most serious murder cases and where the defendant's guilt is beyond all reasonable doubt - two things which undoubtedly apply in this case.

I completely disagree on the issue of morality. I don't believe that someone who commits the most evil and depraved acts of abuse against a defenceless child deserves to live and any fear that either of them may have about effectively being put to sleep pales into insignificance when it's compared to the abhorrent torture and abuse that Arthur endured at the hands of these wicked ******** and the pain and despair he must have been feeling.

I know there's the argument of two wrongs don't make a right but for me these two fit the bill for capital punishment. Within the parameters of our current legal system they should be receiving whole-life terms and hopefully that is what happens at the conclusion of the review of their sentences. For them to have any prospect of release, regardless of how unlikely it might be, is totally unacceptable in my view and if we can't execute them I believe this is the only alternative which is acceptable.

No criminal justice system is infallible and mistakes will happen. A return to capital punishment would inevitably result in innocent people being executed i.e. murdered by the state. The first example of such a miscarriage of justice would result in a public outcry and its likely capital punishment would again be abolished. I think the risk of an innocent person being executed is too great a risk to take.

On the moral argument, I just don't like the idea of the state taking lives on my behalf. I don't think the purpose of the criminal justice system should be to take lives. For me personally, it's an absolute: the deliberate taking of life should not be permitted, which must even include the lives of the worst amongst us. I don't see anything to be gained by executing people. There is no evidence I'm aware of that it works as a deterrent, and of course, execution ends any opportunity for rehabilitation, which I think should be a crux of the system. Of course, the prison system we have now doesn't work as it should, but that's another discussion.

[Sir David Gray]

No criminal justice system is infallible and mistakes will happen. A return to capital punishment would inevitably result in innocent people being executed i.e. murdered by the state. The first example of such a miscarriage of justice would result in a public outcry and its likely capital punishment would again be abolished. I think the risk of an innocent person being executed is too great a risk to take.

On the moral argument, I just don't like the idea of the state taking lives on my behalf. I don't think the purpose of the criminal justice system should be to take lives. For me personally, it's an absolute: the deliberate taking of life should not be permitted, which must even include the lives of the worst amongst us. I don't see anything to be gained by executing people. There is no evidence I'm aware of that it works as a deterrent, and of course, execution ends any opportunity for rehabilitation, which I think should be a crux of the system. Of course, the prison system we have now doesn't work as it should, but that's another discussion.

Fair enough, you do make some good points there.

With regards to rehabilitation though, I agree it should form the basis of why we send people to prison but I don't believe that's possible with people who are capable of torturing a child as they did in this case.

Reading what the Judge had to say about Tustin in particular rehabilitation won't be possible there in my opinion, she is simply an evil and manipulative person who cares for no-one except herself. She has also apparently expressed no remorse whatsoever for what she's done either.

[hibsbollah]

I'm generally against capital punishment for the reasons you state under practical grounds, I find it unacceptable that any innocent person might be put to death. However what I'm proposing would only result in capital punishment being used in the most serious murder cases and where the defendant's guilt is beyond all reasonable doubt - two things which undoubtedly apply in this case.

I completely disagree on the issue of morality. I don't believe that someone who commits the most evil and depraved acts of abuse against a defenceless child deserves to live and any fear that either of them may have about effectively being put to sleep pales into insignificance when it's compared to the abhorrent torture and abuse that Arthur endured at the hands of these wicked ******** and the pain and despair he must have been feeling.

I know there's the argument of two wrongs don't make a right but for me these two fit the bill for capital punishment. Within the parameters of our current legal system they should be receiving whole-life terms and hopefully that is what happens at the conclusion of the review of their sentences. For them to have any prospect of release, regardless of how unlikely it might be, is totally unacceptable in my view and if we can't execute them I believe this is the only alternative which is acceptable.

The problem with what you are proposing is once that law is enshrined, it stays law and is applied by whatever Government is in charge. Treason has been a capital offence at various times in English and Scots law; the purpose was to only come into effect 'in the most extreme cases', but that could be open to interpretation, who decides what is the most extreme? Selling military secrets to an enemey in wartime? Most would agree thats one. Defacing a portrait of your leader? Not so much.

I understanding you are talking about premediatated child murder, but its very hard to be specific. Once the capital punishment genie is out of the bottle...

[AgentDaleCooper]

I haven't read the story, and I have no intention of doing so, but as horrific a crime it may be, I can't condone capital punishment and I think countries that do kill their own citizens are barbaric.

Your post sums up my feelings.

100% agree with this. No matter what the crime, the death penalty is simply a state sanctioned act of evil.

But even aside from this, there is at least one absolutely catastrophic problem with it - miscarriages of justice happen, and people get wrongly convicted. Someone innocent is pretty much guaranteed, at some point, to be murdered by the state, for nothing.

If your response to this is "ok, but only in 100% certain cases" - where is the line? The line we currently have is "proof beyond reasonable doubt" - there's no real way of extended certainty any further than that.

"I know it when I see it" just doesn't cut it here.

If this doesn't put you off, as far as I can see, you're saying that this is a reasonable price to pay for vengeance. I think this is absolutely abhorrent.

EDIT: just read the second page, i've covered old ground here...

[He's here!]

Another horrendous child murder:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-59637683

I also noticed an awful case in Ayrshire (where thankfully the children survived, but at what cost to their development?):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-59636519

You fear for how many children have suffered during isolation at the hands of people who have no capacity to look after a child. Perhaps just as alarmingly, you worry about how unfit for purpose children's services appear to be.

[Bristolhibby]

Another horrendous child murder:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-59637683

I also noticed an awful case in Ayrshire (where thankfully the children survived, but at what cost to their development?):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-59636519

You fear for how many children have suffered during isolation at the hands of people who have no capacity to look after a child. Perhaps just as alarmingly, you worry about how unfit for purpose children's services appear to be.

I hope the two kids in the second link have been permanently taken from their “parents”.

Adoption to a loving home is their best outcome.

It pisses me off, all the good people I know (my brother in law and his wife for one) who can’t have kids and these low lives treat them worse than animals.

J

[Killiehibbie]

I hope the two kids in the second link have been permanently taken from their “parents”.

Adoption to a loving home is their best outcome.

It pisses me off, all the good people I know (my brother in law and his wife for one) who can’t have kids and these low lives treat them worse than animals.

J

Social workers failing again when they recommended community service for somebody with similar previous. Only one place she should be.

[McD]

I hope the two kids in the second link have been permanently taken from their “parents”.

Adoption to a loving home is their best outcome.

It pisses me off, all the good people I know (my brother in law and his wife for one) who can’t have kids and these low lives treat them worse than animals.

J


adding to your point, the hoops people have to jump through to be allowed to adopt (understandably to a point), my wife and I have been through that, whilst there’s nowhere near the the kind of scrutiny put on these inhumane monsters.

I’m not asking for the social services to be able to monitor every family/parent, but in every one of these cases there’s been warning signs, family members flagging issues, and they’ve still been allowed to do what they’ve done. It maybe sounds harsh, but in that kind of job, anything less than 100% accuracy is unacceptable, not when a child is suffering. That means the authorities and governments of the day need to make sure they are properly funded and equipped.

I can’t describe the upset, heartache and sheer rage I feel hearing and reading these stories, I can understand the feelings people have when advocating for the death penalty for these despicable people, although I’m not sure if I agree with that perspective