The black bitch

[lord bunberry]

I see the owners of the black bitch in Linlithgow are planning to change its name to the black hound. I’ve actually drunk in there a few times. It’s part of the local history and has nothing to do with racism as it’s named after a black female dog. I have to say I hate this sort of thing. Here’s the story behind the name, anyone born in Linlithgow is known as a black bitch.
http://www.theblackbitch.co.uk/the-legend-of-the-black-bitch

[Hibrandenburg]

I see the owners of the black bitch in Linlithgow are planning to change its name to the black hound. I’ve actually drunk in there a few times. It’s part of the local history and has nothing to do with racism as it’s named after a black female dog. I have to say I hate this sort of thing. Here’s the story behind the name, anyone born in Linlithgow is known as a black bitch.
http://www.theblackbitch.co.uk/the-legend-of-the-black-bitch

It's utterly ridiculous and does the anti-racism cause no good whatsoever, instead stuff like this only plays into the hands of racists.

[Onceinawhile]

What? They can't do that ffs. It's literally the dog depicted on the town crest. What a fan shambles.

[Pretty Boy]

I think there are instances in which something that is harmless or just a laugh to one person is potentially troublesome for another. One example would be 'blacking up' for a fancy dress party. Often done with no malice but the weight of history means it is probably best left well alone.

This just seems like a total nonsense though and certainly doesn't fall into the above category. IF anyone is troubled or offended by the name then explain it to them and educate them on the historicity.

Any racial connotation stems from a misunderstanding of the name. It just gives ammunition to the 'you' re woke', 'PC gone mad', 'snowflake' brigade when something genuinely troublesome raises it's head in the future.

[Sir David Gray]

I see the owners of the black bitch in Linlithgow are planning to change its name to the black hound. I’ve actually drunk in there a few times. It’s part of the local history and has nothing to do with racism as it’s named after a black female dog. I have to say I hate this sort of thing. Here’s the story behind the name, anyone born in Linlithgow is known as a black bitch.
http://www.theblackbitch.co.uk/the-legend-of-the-black-bitch

Absolute nonsense and for me stories like this only detracts from the very real instances of genuine racism.

Very troubling indeed but sadly it seems to be the way of the world these days.

[lord bunberry]

This just smacks of someone looking in from afar and seeing the name and jumping to conclusions. The pub has existed under that name for years and the people of Linlithgow have always known and celebrated the story behind it. If the company isn’t happy they should sell the pub.

[SteveHFC]

Absolute nonsense and for me stories like this only detracts from the very real instances of genuine racism.

Very troubling indeed but sadly it seems to be the way of the world these days.

Agreed.

[WeeRussell]

Completely ridiculous and I’m yet to read or hear someone argue otherwise.

[SteveHFC]

Completely ridiculous and I’m yet to read or hear someone argue otherwise.

Saw a tweet earlier of someone trying to defend the decision.

[lapsedhibee]

If the company isn’t happy they should sell the pub.

Businesses change their names all the time though. One of the biggest companies in the world just did. (Not Hearts.)

[hibsbollah]

Businesses change their names all the time though. One of the biggest companies in the world just did. (Not Hearts.)

I think it’s got more to do with corporate branding than ‘wokeness’. It depends whom you most enjoy blaming for the worlds ills; anti racism or capitalism:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Completely ridiculous and I’m yet to read or hear someone argue otherwise.

I wouldn't go so far as to argue otherwise, but I do kinda get why the whole name might now be considered a bit on the toxic side. When I first watched fitba it was ok to call a ref a black *******. Black is not itself offensive and ******* is not particularly offensive on its own, but the combination has very bad connotations. Similar with black bitch.

Since it's (I think) ok still to refer to a ref as "The ******* in the black" :singing:, then perhaps a cheeky wee pub rename to The Bitch In The Black Coat would be fine.

[ABZHFC]

I think with stuff like this you just see how wrong we've gone when it comes to dealing with racism, and it's something I blame the media and big business for. Any efforts to 'tackle' racism are trivial and surface-level, which is how you end up with decisions like this being made and publicised

[Hibbyradge]

Absolute nonsense and for me stories like this only detracts from the very real instances of genuine racism.

Very troubling indeed but sadly it seems to be the way of the world these days.

While I don't think it's necessary, I'm not sure we should be getting troubled by a pub changing its name.

[Sir David Gray]

While I don't think it's necessary, I'm not sure we should be getting troubled by a pub changing its name.

I personally find these things very troubling. It's not just a pub changing its name, it's why its changing its name that I find troubling.

Like I said, we should be putting the focus on genuine racism instead of getting involved with nonsense like this as it simply just detracts from the real issue at hand and does absolutely nothing to further the fight against racism.

[CropleyWasGod]

I am curious as to why they have chosen "hound" instead of "dog".

Perhaps they have been advised that "dog" would be insensitive towards those with MH issues.

[Hibbyradge]

I personally find these things very troubling. It's not just a pub changing its name, it's why its changing its name that I find troubling.

Like I said, we should be putting the focus on genuine racism instead of getting involved with nonsense like this as it simply just detracts from the real issue at hand and does absolutely nothing to further the fight against racism.

I understand the argument that it might be excessive and unnecessary, but the motive for the change comes from a good place and the intention is positive.

Unless I'm missing the point, I don't see how it detracts from the issue. No-one who is not already of that mindset is going to become racist because of a pub changing its name. It might give some people the opportunity to bang on about PC gone mad and "snowflakes", but they would be doing that anyway about something else.

[Hibbyradge]

I am curious as to why they have chosen "hound" instead of "dog".

Perhaps they have been advised that "dog" would be insensitive towards those with MH issues.

Hound sounds a bit more interesting than dog and there are loads of pubs called Black Dog so maybe they thought it would be more original too.

Plus, as you have alluded, who wants to go to a pub called "Depression".

[JeMeSouviens]

We don't really know the motivation for the name change. Since they are changing the name from "Black Bitch" to "Black Hound" it suggests bitch might be the problem word rather than black? It might have nothing to do with perceptions of racism, just an acknowledgment that the word "bitch" is much more often than not used for mysogynistic rather than canine-gendering purposes, thus rendering it a wee bit uncomfortable?

[CropleyWasGod]

We don't really know the motivation for the name change. Since they are changing the name from "Black Bitch" to "Black Hound" it suggests bitch might be the problem word rather than black? It might have nothing to do with perceptions of racism, just an acknowledgment that the word "bitch" is much more often than not used for mysogynistic rather than canine-gendering purposes, thus rendering it a wee bit uncomfortable?

Or, more likely, the 2 together. Perceived racism and misogyny together. Boom.

[JeMeSouviens]

Or, more likely, the 2 together. Perceived racism and misogyny together. Boom.

Yep, makes sense. I can certainly see why a pub might consider the name problematic, depending on what market they're targeting. Once you explain it, there's obviously nothing sinister about it, but who wants a business where you have to keep explaining the name to any potential new customers?

[WeeRussell]

We don't really know the motivation for the name change. Since they are changing the name from "Black Bitch" to "Black Hound" it suggests bitch might be the problem word rather than black? It might have nothing to do with perceptions of racism, just an acknowledgment that the word "bitch" is much more often than not used for mysogynistic rather than canine-gendering purposes, thus rendering it a wee bit uncomfortable?

Wondered this myself but guy on the news (maybe the pub manager) was protesting saying there's nothing racist about this. I think it's the whole phrase.. as outlandish as the whole thing is.

[WeeRussell]

Yep, makes sense. I can certainly see why a pub might consider the name problematic, depending on what market they're targeting. Once you explain it, there's obviously nothing sinister about it, but who wants a business where you have to keep explaining the name to any potential new customers?

I was thinking whatever the result of this episode.. it's probably a win/win for the business of the pub.

[CropleyWasGod]

Wondered this myself but guy on the news (maybe the pub manager) was protesting saying there's nothing racist about this. I think it's the whole phrase.. as outlandish as the whole thing is.

The owners say it does have "racist and offensive connotations
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-59494786

Also a bit of clarity as to the use of "hound". :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I understand the argument that it might be excessive and unnecessary, but the motive for the change comes from a good place and the intention is positive.

Unless I'm missing the point, I don't see how it detracts from the issue. No-one who is not already of that mindset is going to become racist because of a pub changing its name. It might give some people the opportunity to bang on about PC gone mad and "snowflakes", but they would be doing that anyway about something else.

Fair enough, think we'll just need to respectfully agree to disagree.

[Hiber-nation]

Looks like Greene King are having a purge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-58502853

[lord bunberry]

Yep, makes sense. I can certainly see why a pub might consider the name problematic, depending on what market they're targeting. Once you explain it, there's obviously nothing sinister about it, but who wants a business where you have to keep explaining the name to any potential new customers?
They don’t have to explain it though as the story is on the wall in the pub.

[lord bunberry]

Fair enough, think we'll just need to respectfully agree to disagree.
When someone leaves a post like that you have no choice but to just move on. If you continue to put your point across you’re painted as a right wing nut job like the poster has tried to pigeonhole you into.

[Hibbyradge]

When someone leaves a post like that you have no choice but to just move on. If you continue to put your point across you’re painted as a right wing nut job like the poster has tried to pigeonhole you into.

That's extremely unfair and totally wrong.

I didn't try to do anything except explain my thoughts on the matter. I don't think SDG is a "right wing nut job" or racist, his posts on the matter make that clear, but I don't understand why renaming the pub detracts from the issue of racism. However, my comment, "Unless I'm missing the point" shows that I'm open to hearing counter points rather than paint anyone anywhere.

[G15 Hibs]

Looks like Greene King are having a purge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-58502853

For a massive company like Greene King the motivation behind every decision is profit and it would seem they're looking to mitigate any possibility of bad publicity, given how attitudes on language evolve. Maybe they're being over-sensitive, I don't know, but you can see what's behind it.

[lord bunberry]

That's extremely unfair and totally wrong.

I didn't try to do anything except explain my thoughts on the matter. I don't think SDG is a "right wing nut job" or racist, his posts on the matter make that clear, but I don't understand why renaming the pub detracts from the issue of racism. However, my comment, "Unless I'm missing the point" shows that I'm open to hearing counter points rather than paint anyone anywhere.
I wasn’t trying to say you were saying that about sdg, I was meaning that you were having a go at anyone who didn’t agree with you. You said it gives people the chance to use the phrase pc gone mad or call people snowflakes for disagreeing with the name change. I disagree with it and I detest those terms along with gammon and I’ve never once used them.

[Stonewall]

The owners say it does have "racist and offensive connotations
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-59494786

Also a bit of clarity as to the use of "hound". :greengrin

interestingly Greene King has historical connections with the slave trade and the founder voted against the bill to abolish slavery.

To say the locals feel strongly about this is an understatement.

[Keith_M]

For a massive company like Greene King the motivation behind every decision is profit and it would seem they're looking to mitigate any possibility of bad publicity, given how attitudes on language evolve. Maybe they're being over-sensitive, I don't know, but you can see what's behind it.


That was my first thought with this as well.

They've probably taken a business decision to pre-empt any possible accusations of racism, misogyny, etc, to avoid bad publicity.

Like most businesses, these kind of actions are merely PR.

[Hibbyradge]

I wasn’t trying to say you were saying that about sdg, I was meaning that you were having a go at anyone who didn’t agree with you. You said it gives people the chance to use the phrase pc gone mad or call people snowflakes for disagreeing with the name change. I disagree with it and I detest those terms along with gammon and I’ve never once used them.

I wasn't having a go at anyone.

[hibsbollah]

I wasn't having a go at anyone.

Why the hell not? Can I have a go then?

[Bristolhibby]

Maybe they didn’t want the word bitch used.

My kids love finding swear words that are actually normal words. In this case a female dog.

J

[Jack]

The managing director looks at the books in the light of Black Lives Matter and says he wants 'black' removed from all the pub names.

Local managers are then left with making excuses why non racist terms might be racist.

[danhibees1875]

The managing director looks at the books in the light of Black Lives Matter and says he wants 'black' removed from all the pub names.

Local managers are then left with making excuses why non racist terms might be racist.

But they're keeping the word black in the name?

I think the new name is better... :dunno:

[hibsbollah]

Maybe they didn’t want the word bitch used.

My kids love finding swear words that are actually normal words. In this case a female dog.

J

:agree: My son still thinks it’s hilarious that the garden bird is called a ‘tit’. If the animal world had a brand manager…

[lord bunberry]

I wasn't having a go at anyone.
Fair enough, I’ve obviously picked you up wrong and I apologise for my previous post.

[lord bunberry]

Why the hell not? Can I have a go then?
Fire away :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Fire away :greengrin

****ing drink drivers :grr:

[Speedy]

I see the owners of the black bitch in Linlithgow are planning to change its name to the black hound. I’ve actually drunk in there a few times. It’s part of the local history and has nothing to do with racism as it’s named after a black female dog. I have to say I hate this sort of thing. Here’s the story behind the name, anyone born in Linlithgow is known as a black bitch.
http://www.theblackbitch.co.uk/the-legend-of-the-black-bitch

Which in itself isn't great these days. It's all very well saying it is tradition and it has been like that for years, but times move on.

[lord bunberry]

****ing drink drivers :grr:
I’m keeping out of that particular debate :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Which in itself isn't great these days. It's all very well saying it is tradition and it has been like that for years, but times move on.
I think that would be the case if they went around calling each other it. Maybe it’s me being over sensitive, but I hate when people come in and trample over peoples traditions and try and make them ashamed when there’s nothing to be ashamed about.

[lapsedhibee]

I think that would be the case if they went around calling each other it. Maybe it’s me being over sensitive, but I hate when people come in and trample over peoples traditions and try and make them ashamed when there’s nothing to be ashamed about.
Don't think anyone's doing that in this case, are they? :dunno:

[Speedy]

I think that would be the case if they went around calling each other it. Maybe it’s me being over sensitive, but I hate when people come in and trample over peoples traditions and try and make them ashamed when there’s nothing to be ashamed about.

It's not about being ashamed, it's about realising how things have different connotations and reacting in a way which is more inclusive.

The story and the history is still there.

[Keith_M]

Isn't 'Bitch' the word for a female dog? Has anybody tried explaining that to the pub group?


Maybe send them a dictionary :-)

[lapsedhibee]

Isn't 'Bitch' the word for a female dog? Has anybody tried explaining that to the pub group?


Maybe send them a dictionary :-)

At heart it's about pairing of insults. Some examples here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42889128

[Keith_M]

At heart it's about pairing of insults. Some examples here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42889128


The other side of the argument would be that the pub is named after a female dog that was black, and there was no insult.

Has anyone actually reported being offended by the name of the pub.... or it jut an assumption that it surely must be offensive?

If the former, then why not explain to that person where the name of the pub actually comes from and that the origin was neither misogynistic nor racist, then see how that goes?

:dunno:

[lord bunberry]

The other side of the argument would be that the pub is named after a female dog that was black, and there was no insult.

Has anyone actually reported being offended by the name of the pub.... or it jut an assumption that it surely must be offensive?

If the former, then why not explain to that person where the name of the pub actually comes from and that the origin was neither misogynistic nor racist, then see how that goes?

:dunno:
Apparently there’s quite a few pubs in England called the black boy and there doesn’t seem to be a definitive explanation as to why that name exists. The pub chain is renaming those pubs and the black bitch is being grouped in with those.

[lord bunberry]

Don't think anyone's doing that in this case, are they? :dunno:
What they’re saying is the name is unacceptable in modern society and they need to change it.

It's not about being ashamed, it's about realising how things have different connotations and reacting in a way which is more inclusive.

The story and the history is still there.
The story is still there, but it’s going to be a bit less visible. I might be totally wrong about this and maybe there’s been lots of complaints about the name and people are offended by the name of the pub.

[Keith_M]

Apparently there’s quite a few pubs in England called the black boy and there doesn’t seem to be a definitive explanation as to why that name exists. The pub chain is renaming those pubs and the black bitch is being grouped in with those.


Let's just assume people will find offence, as it's much easier that way.

Then other people can defend the decision by saying that there's a vague possibility that someone might have been offended, with the presumption that said (as yet unspecified) person was too stupid to comprehend the actual origins of the name, even after you took the time to explain it to them.

Isn't that a little racist and/or misogynistic?

:dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

The other side of the argument would be that the pub is named after a female dog that was black, and there was no insult.

Has anyone actually reported being offended by the name of the pub.... or it jut an assumption that it surely must be offensive?

If the former, then why not explain to that person where the name of the pub actually comes from and that the origin was neither misogynistic nor racist, then see how that goes?

:dunno:

Why bother with all that explaining and the possibility of people getting it wrong?

It does seem a bit unnecessary to me, but as the person in the article said, you wouldn't open a new business today and call it the black bitch regardless of the connection.

[Keith_M]

Why bother with all that explaining and the possibility of people getting it wrong?
....


Funnily enough, I just covered that in my comment just above yours...

[Speedy]

Let's just assume people will find offence, as it's much easier that way.

Then other people can defend the decision by saying that there's a vague possibility that someone might have been offended, with the presumption that said (as yet unspecified) person was too stupid to comprehend the actual origins of the name, even after you took the time to explain it to them.

Isn't that a little racist and/or misogynistic?

:dunno:

In this scenario where you found someone who found it offensive, and you explained the origin to them. If they said, I understand the origin but I still don't find it appropriate. What then?

[McSwanky]

The story is still there, but it’s going to be a bit less visible.

How's it going to be less visible?

[Keith_M]

In this scenario where you found someone who found it offensive, and you explained the origin to them. If they said, I understand the origin but I still don't find it appropriate. What then?



Again, this is all presumption on your part that,

1, somebody has reported it as offensive, despite the fact that nobody appears to have done so.

2, they're either too stupid or too obstinate to understand/accept the perfectly legitimate reason you just gave them.


Fair enough, if you're determined to see offense everywhere (even on other people's behalf), then you will. It just doesn't seem the best tactic to fight genuine instances of racism or misogyny.

[Keith_M]

Sorry, I need to leave this debate for now, as I have to take the bitches for a walk.



And you can interpret that in any way you want...

:wink:

[McSwanky]

It just doesn't seem the best tactic to fight genuine instances of racism or misogyny.

With respect, I don't think anyone's suggesting that. Marginal gains and all that.

This is a massive storm in a teacup for me. Pub owner changes name of pub. Big deal!

I think there's an element of people finding offence for no great reason on both sides.

[Speedy]

Again, this is all presumption on your part that,

1, somebody has reported it as offensive, despite the fact that nobody was appears to have done so.

2, they're either too stupid or too obstinate to understand/accept the perfectly legitimate reason you just gave them.


Fair enough, if you're determined to see offense everywhere (even on other people's behalf), then you will. It just doesn't seem the best tactic to fight genuine instances of racism or misogyny.

It's not presumption of anything, I'm asking what next in that scenario?

[Hibbyradge]

It's a pub name that's being changed in order to avoid possible offence. That's all. No harm's being done. No freedoms or liberties are being lost.

Lots of pubs change their name for all sorts of reasons, none of those changes are absolutely necessary, and we hear nothing, but when one does it to stop potential misunderstanding and offence, there are complaints.

I don't understand that.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a pub name that's being changed in order to avoid possible offence. That's all. No harm's being done. No freedoms or liberties are being lost.

Lots of pubs change their name for all sorts of reasons, none of those changes are absolutely necessary, and we hear nothing, but when one does it to stop potential misunderstanding and offence, there are complaints.

I don't understand that.

Is the argument, locally at any rate, not that a piece of the towns heritage is being eroded or potentially misrepresented?

I'll admit the first time I saw the name of the pub I thought it fell somewhere into the grey area between amusing and inappropriate. About 30 seconds on Google moved it into 'weird historical quirk' territory. The black bitch is a well known story in Linlithgow. Alongside the pub there is a community newspaper and a statue with the same name. It features on the towns coat of arms that was incorporated in the 17th century.

If there is an element of misunderstanding, perhaps on the part of people who have moved to the town as it has expanded over the years, is the onus not on the person who misunderstands to educate themselves on the origins and history of the name, the story and it's importance to the area?

I accept that there will be band wagon jumpers desperate for a chance to rant about PC gone mad and the like. Equally though I can see why local people could be upset that a part of their towns identity that is innocent but quirky is potentially being painted as something racist and/or misogynistic, which it patently is not, because of a vague notion of assumed offence and a report from a singular local focus group. We all know that times change but we aren't talking about rerunning Love Thy Neighbour on TV, putting up signs in windows barring Irish and Blacks or removing the right to vote from women. It's the name of a pub drawn from a local legend that, taken in context, is completely innocent.

[WeeRussell]

With respect, I don't think anyone's suggesting that. Marginal gains and all that.

This is a massive storm in a teacup for me. Pub owner changes name of pub. Big deal!

I think there's an element of people finding offence for no great reason on both sides.

You’re probably right. While I think the reasons for changing the name are silly on the face of it - it causes me no offence or has no effect on my life.

If the decision has been made by the owners to change their name rather than enforced on the pub then it’s not really anyone’s business to be outraged by it.

[Sir David Gray]

Is the argument, locally at any rate, not that a piece of the towns heritage is being eroded or potentially misrepresented?

I'll admit the first time I saw the name of the pub I thought it fell somewhere into the grey area between amusing and inappropriate. About 30 seconds on Google moved it into 'weird historical quirk' territory. The black bitch is a well known story in Linlithgow. Alongside the pub there is a community newspaper and a statue with the same name. It features on the towns coat of arms that was incorporated in the 17th century.

If there is an element of misunderstanding, perhaps on the part of people who have moved to the town as it has expanded over the years, is the onus not on the person who misunderstands to educate themselves on the origins and history of the name, the story and it's importance to the area?

I accept that there will be band wagon jumpers desperate for a chance to rant about PC gone mad and the like. Equally though I can see why local people could be upset that a part of their towns identity that is innocent but quirky is potentially being painted as something racist and/or misogynistic, which it patently is not, because of a vague notion of assumed offence and a report from a singular local focus group. We all know that times change but we aren't talking about rerunning Love Thy Neighbour on TV, putting up signs in windows barring Irish and Blacks or removing the right to vote from women. It's the name of a pub drawn from a local legend that, taken in context, is completely innocent.

In a nutshell.

[heretoday]

Change the name to Black Greyhound or something. It's a no-brainer.

[danhibees1875]

Change the name to Black Greyhound or something. It's a no-brainer.

Unless I've been duped that is exactly, almost, what is happening.


Regarding the historical significance, is it lessened by changing bitch to hound? Is the whole story around a "bitch" - or is it just a dog, and so would carry the same weight under "the black hound" as it used to? :dunno:

[Hiber-nation]

I don't like the word "bitch" to describe a female dog - I just say "female" if someone asks me about mine. However Greene King have gone a bit OTT with this. Who are they afraid of offending? All these tourists packing into Linlithgow who might be horrified? Not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things though.

[overdrive]

Whilst I think it is a bit over the top changing the name of the pub, I can see why people might be offended by the name if they don’t know the history. I worked with two people from Linlithgow and I remember being a bit taken aback when I heard them mention the pub.

One of my former colleagues lives within sight of the pub and she said relatives from Australia that were visiting were initially appalled that there was a pub with that name.

[Speedy]

Is the argument, locally at any rate, not that a piece of the towns heritage is being eroded or potentially misrepresented?

I'll admit the first time I saw the name of the pub I thought it fell somewhere into the grey area between amusing and inappropriate. About 30 seconds on Google moved it into 'weird historical quirk' territory. The black bitch is a well known story in Linlithgow. Alongside the pub there is a community newspaper and a statue with the same name. It features on the towns coat of arms that was incorporated in the 17th century.

If there is an element of misunderstanding, perhaps on the part of people who have moved to the town as it has expanded over the years, is the onus not on the person who misunderstands to educate themselves on the origins and history of the name, the story and it's importance to the area?

I accept that there will be band wagon jumpers desperate for a chance to rant about PC gone mad and the like. Equally though I can see why local people could be upset that a part of their towns identity that is innocent but quirky is potentially being painted as something racist and/or misogynistic, which it patently is not, because of a vague notion of assumed offence and a report from a singular local focus group. We all know that times change but we aren't talking about rerunning Love Thy Neighbour on TV, putting up signs in windows barring Irish and Blacks or removing the right to vote from women. It's the name of a pub drawn from a local legend that, taken in context, is completely innocent.

Goes both ways imo. In understanding the story, I'm sure people appreciate there is no malice in the name. But equally, if a local convention carried negative connotations to visitors or new residents then it seems reasonable to make tweaks to make people more welcome.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't like the word "bitch" to describe a female dog - I just say "female" if someone asks me about mine. However Greene King have gone a bit OTT with this. Who are they afraid of offending? All these tourists packing into Linlithgow who might be horrified? Not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things though.
Find this a very puzzling post. You don't like using the word bitch but the owners who don't want it plastered all over the wall of their pub are going over the top?

[He's here!]

It's not about being ashamed, it's about realising how things have different connotations and reacting in a way which is more inclusive.

The story and the history is still there.

It's not as though it's only in the last few years that folk have cottoned on to the fact that things have different connotations though. The pub's name has endured down the decades - and the legend itself is at least 300 years old. I think it's reasonable to credit the majority of the Linlithgow public with the intelligence to know the difference between a long-established piece of local history and a racist phrase. I feel we've come to a sorry pass when we start stripping away local traditions which, when properly understood, are a positive thing for a community and have no connection to racism whatsoever. As one of the women quoted in the article states: "I'm proud to be a black bitch."

[Bristolhibby]

I think that would be the case if they went around calling each other it. Maybe it’s me being over sensitive, but I hate when people come in and trample over peoples traditions and try and make them ashamed when there’s nothing to be ashamed about.

The Black Bitch in Linlithgow ain’t a hill I’m prepared to die on in the defence of tradition.

J

[lord bunberry]

The Black Bitch in Linlithgow ain’t a hill I’m prepared to die on in the defence of tradition.

J
Neither am I to be fair, it won’t have any effect on me if they change the name. I think it’s an interesting subject to discuss though.

[McSwanky]

a positive thing for a community

Can you describe to me how exactly a pub name is a positive thing for a community? I don't get it.

[He's here!]

Can you describe to me how exactly a pub name is a positive thing for a community? I don't get it.

Is it hard to get? The vast majority of long-established pubs draw their names from historical events, occupations, local folklore, heraldry etc. The more interesting can offer an insight into a town or village's past and, in this particular case, have tale to tell that gives the 'local' a unique selling point and the community a sense of collective identity. Judging by those who've posted their views on the petition to save the pub name it's an identity they're proud of. 'We're all black bitches' writes one.

[heretoday]

I don't like the word "bitch" to describe a female dog - I just say "female" if someone asks me about mine. However Greene King have gone a bit OTT with this. Who are they afraid of offending? All these tourists packing into Linlithgow who might be horrified? Not a huge issue in the grand scheme of things though.

Well it's not just tourists is it, although when out on a walk a couple of years ago we went past the pub and both of us remarked how do they get away with that in this day and age?

I think maybe the point is there are people from Asian or African ethnic groups who actually stay in Linlithgow. I wouldn't know how many.

[Sir David Gray]

Is it hard to get? The vast majority of long-established pubs draw their names from historical events, occupations, local folklore, heraldry etc. The more interesting can offer an insight into a town or village's past and, in this particular case, have tale to tell that gives the 'local' a unique selling point and the community a sense of collective identity. Judging by those who've posted their views on the petition to save the pub name it's an identity they're proud of. 'We're all black bitches' writes one.

:agree: Absolutely.

[Speedy]

It's not as though it's only in the last few years that folk have cottoned on to the fact that things have different connotations though. The pub's name has endured down the decades - and the legend itself is at least 300 years old. I think it's reasonable to credit the majority of the Linlithgow public with the intelligence to know the difference between a long-established piece of local history and a racist phrase. I feel we've come to a sorry pass when we start stripping away local traditions which, when properly understood, are a positive thing for a community and have no connection to racism whatsoever. As one of the women quoted in the article states: "I'm proud to be a black bitch."

I'd say things have vastly accelerated over the last few years in terms of understanding equality and the impact one group's customs have on others.

Obviously not everyone is in agreement. The real test will be in 10/20 years if/when the thread is bumped, at that point it'll be clearer whether the right decision was made.

[Smartie]

It’s weird that they would choose to drop bitch and then choose hound. I’ve heard the word hound used to describe a physically unattractive female in a derogatory and unacceptable way plenty over the years. Black hound doesn’t really sound like any sort of an improvement to me.

It’s a phrase that has always felt a bit out of place tbh but I’ve always quite liked that it makes sense once the context is explained.

For me (resident in the town for 4 years from age 3) it’s a shame that this has to happen - but I accept that I’m not part of demographic who would have reason to be offended.

[Kato]

Can you describe to me how exactly a pub name is a positive thing for a community? I don't get it.I understand the importance of tradition etc and that boozer in Lithgy has been around for a good while.
I visit Stony Stratford every now and again which has two boozers The Cock and, opposite, is The Bull. They are olde worlde coach houses and one serviced the traffic from London and the other, the traffic to. By the time the news and gossip had crossed the road and back a few times you had a cock and bull story. Great tradition and brilliant those boozers still exist.

Traditions change and flux with the times though. If all traditions were strictly adhered to in Scotland would still be burning women and Catholics. Imagine that, gender politics and sectarianism leading to murders, who needs that in this day and age.

Is the name of a boozer not a cheap price to pay for an anti-bigotry message? If it changed it's name to The Weasal and Mallet, eventually no one would care.

It's not that long ago the UK had a tradition of open borders and making refugees welcome. That tradition is in state of flux now with a Govt who wants to turn people back and a chunk of the populace all for that to the point that refugees from war torn countries are dying.

A wee anti-bigotry lesson gained from a name change of a pub seems small but is maybe required.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

I understand the importance of tradition etc and that boozer in Lithgy has been around for a good while.
I visit Stony Stratford every now and again which has two boozers The Cock and, opposite, is The Bull. They are olde worlde coach houses and one serviced the traffic from London and the other, the traffic to. By the time the news and gossip had crossed the road and back a few times you had a cock and bull story. Great tradition and brilliant those boozers still exist.

Traditions change and flux with the times though. If all traditions were strictly adhered to in Scotland would still be burning women and Catholics. Imagine that, gender politics and sectarianism leading to murders, who needs that in this day and age.

Is the name of a boozer not a cheap price to pay for an anti-bigotry message? If it changed it's name to The Weasal and Mallet, eventually no one would care.

It's not that long ago the UK had a tradition of open borders and making refugees welcome. That tradition is in state of flux now with a Govt who wants to turn people back and a chunk of the populace all for that to the point that refugees from war torn countries are dying.

A wee anti-bigotry lesson gained from a name change of a pub seems small but is maybe required.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Super post, Kato.

I didn't know that about the pubs either. Nice one

[He's here!]

I'd say things have vastly accelerated over the last few years in terms of understanding equality and the impact one group's customs have on others.

Obviously not everyone is in agreement. The real test will be in 10/20 years if/when the thread is bumped, at that point it'll be clearer whether the right decision was made.

Things have undoubtedly accelerated, but at a pace where even when the words black and bitch are placed together in a context which has nothing to do with either racism or derogatory comments about women it's deemed unacceptable. How about people pause for thought and read up on the pub's origins rather than reaching for the 'cancel' button?

In a (sadly unlikely) ideal world 20 years down the line neither term will be deemed offensive and the pub's name will remain exactly what has always been, a curiosity.

[He's here!]

I understand the importance of tradition etc and that boozer in Lithgy has been around for a good while.
I visit Stony Stratford every now and again which has two boozers The Cock and, opposite, is The Bull. They are olde worlde coach houses and one serviced the traffic from London and the other, the traffic to. By the time the news and gossip had crossed the road and back a few times you had a cock and bull story. Great tradition and brilliant those boozers still exist.

Traditions change and flux with the times though. If all traditions were strictly adhered to in Scotland would still be burning women and Catholics. Imagine that, gender politics and sectarianism leading to murders, who needs that in this day and age.

Is the name of a boozer not a cheap price to pay for an anti-bigotry message? If it changed it's name to The Weasal and Mallet, eventually no one would care.

It's not that long ago the UK had a tradition of open borders and making refugees welcome. That tradition is in state of flux now with a Govt who wants to turn people back and a chunk of the populace all for that to the point that refugees from war torn countries are dying.

A wee anti-bigotry lesson gained from a name change of a pub seems small but is maybe required.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

In this instance though there is, and never has been, anything bigoted about the pub's name. The only 'lesson' being taught here is that naming a historic local boozer after a legendary black female dog is now intolerable.

[Sir David Gray]

In this instance though there is, and never has been, anything bigoted about the pub's name. The only 'lesson' being taught here is that naming a historic local boozer after a legendary black female dog is now intolerable.

Absolutely. There is no bigotry lesson to be learned here, the name of the pub is not borne out of bigotry. To try and link the changing of this pub's name as some victory against bigotry is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

[McSwanky]

Is it hard to get? The vast majority of long-established pubs draw their names from historical events, occupations, local folklore, heraldry etc. The more interesting can offer an insight into a town or village's past and, in this particular case, have tale to tell that gives the 'local' a unique selling point and the community a sense of collective identity. Judging by those who've posted their views on the petition to save the pub name it's an identity they're proud of. 'We're all black bitches' writes one.

Great. But does renaming the pub to 'The Black Hound' really change any of that?

[Kato]

In this instance though there is, and never has been, anything bigoted about the pub's name. The only 'lesson' being taught here is that naming a historic local boozer after a legendary black female dog is now intolerable.

And my point is at this moment in this country as many lessons as possible need to be sent out. What is the problem with changing a pubs name, originally bigoted or not? Seems a very trivial thing to cling onto given the hate in this country at the moment.

What's intolerable about that?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

I understand the importance of tradition etc and that boozer in Lithgy has been around for a good while.
I visit Stony Stratford every now and again which has two boozers The Cock and, opposite, is The Bull. They are olde worlde coach houses and one serviced the traffic from London and the other, the traffic to. By the time the news and gossip had crossed the road and back a few times you had a cock and bull story. Great tradition and brilliant those boozers still exist.

Traditions change and flux with the times though. If all traditions were strictly adhered to in Scotland would still be burning women and Catholics. Imagine that, gender politics and sectarianism leading to murders, who needs that in this day and age.

Is the name of a boozer not a cheap price to pay for an anti-bigotry message? If it changed it's name to The Weasal and Mallet, eventually no one would care.

It's not that long ago the UK had a tradition of open borders and making refugees welcome. That tradition is in state of flux now with a Govt who wants to turn people back and a chunk of the populace all for that to the point that refugees from war torn countries are dying.

A wee anti-bigotry lesson gained from a name change of a pub seems small but is maybe required.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Great post.

[brianmc]

Well it's not just tourists is it, although when out on a walk a couple of years ago we went past the pub and both of us remarked how do they get away with that in this day and age?

I think maybe the point is there are people from Asian or African ethnic groups who actually stay in Linlithgow. I wouldn't know how many.

And yet it's the 'bitch' part of the name that's being changed not the 'black'.... So your point is ?

Next on the hitlist I imagine will be any pub named the Black Bull - ticking the colour, gender and sexual orientation boxes 🙄

[Kato]

Absolutely. There is no bigotry lesson to be learned here, the name of the pub is not borne out of bigotry. To try and link the changing of this pub's name as some victory against bigotry is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned.Looks like the owners think the nuance of the story pales into insignificance next the impact of the phrase. In country with a deep history of misogyny they have hit on a compromise which fits. Don't see the problem really.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

And yet it's the 'bitch' part of the name that's being changed not the 'black'.... So your point is ?

Next on the hitlist I imagine will be any pub named the Black Bull - ticking the colour, gender and sexual orientation boxes 🙄
The black ivy will have to change as well.

[Speedy]

At heart it's about pairing of insults. Some examples here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42889128

This is worth a read

[He's here!]

Well it's not just tourists is it, although when out on a walk a couple of years ago we went past the pub and both of us remarked how do they get away with that in this day and age?

I think maybe the point is there are people from Asian or African ethnic groups who actually stay in Linlithgow. I wouldn't know how many.

And yet a minimal effort to find out why the pub has that name would reveal that they weren't 'getting away' with anything.

[He's here!]

And my point is at this moment in this country as many lessons as possible need to be sent out. What is the problem with changing a pubs name, originally bigoted or not? Seems a very trivial thing to cling onto given the hate in this country at the moment.

What's intolerable about that?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Yep, I get your point. I just feel that if sending out as many anti-bigotry messages as possible extends to erasing non-bigoted names/phrases etc in case they cause offence then the potential cull is limitless.

[Hiber-nation]

Find this a very puzzling post. You don't like using the word bitch but the owners who don't want it plastered all over the wall of their pub are going over the top?

I only offered an opinion earlier on cos I was bored. It's such a minor issue I'm feeling the life draining from me as I type.....:zzzzz!:

[stu in nottingham]

I understand the importance of tradition etc and that boozer in Lithgy has been around for a good while.
I visit Stony Stratford every now and again which has two boozers The Cock and, opposite, is The Bull. They are olde worlde coach houses and one serviced the traffic from London and the other, the traffic to. By the time the news and gossip had crossed the road and back a few times you had a cock and bull story. Great tradition and brilliant those boozers still exist.

Traditions change and flux with the times though. If all traditions were strictly adhered to in Scotland would still be burning women and Catholics. Imagine that, gender politics and sectarianism leading to murders, who needs that in this day and age.

Is the name of a boozer not a cheap price to pay for an anti-bigotry message? If it changed it's name to The Weasal and Mallet, eventually no one would care.

It's not that long ago the UK had a tradition of open borders and making refugees welcome. That tradition is in state of flux now with a Govt who wants to turn people back and a chunk of the populace all for that to the point that refugees from war torn countries are dying.

A wee anti-bigotry lesson gained from a name change of a pub seems small but is maybe required.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Enjoyed reading your post and those are some interesting points, Kato. The only minor point I'd perhaps differ from is that of a taking away a pub/localty's history with these daft, not particularly relevant made-up names. Not an important point by comparison.

In a nearby suburb is a pub which is named 'The Blacks Head'. I'm pretty sure that at one time it sported a pub sign which showed a subservient black male but may have that confused. Neither sat well with me and it certainly looked even more provocative draped in Union Flags too. In the past few weeks it has been refurbished and the opportunity used for a name change to 'The Beacon Hill' which actually does have local historical relevance.

My two local pubs are both original coaching houses built in the late 1700s and have traditional names, 'The Waggon and Horses' (sic) and 'The Ram Inn'. I'd hate for them to be turned into the Ferret and Trumpet or some other stupidity.

[ballengeich]

Anyone supporting Greene King's proposal to change the pub's name believes that an international capitalist business should be able to override a local culture whenever it believes doing so could increase its profits.

[Sir David Gray]

Looks like the owners think the nuance of the story pales into insignificance next the impact of the phrase. In country with a deep history of misogyny they have hit on a compromise which fits. Don't see the problem really.



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I think we fundamentally disagree so much on this that I'll agree to disagree and leave it there.

[McSwanky]

Anyone supporting Greene King's proposal to change the pub's name believes that an international capitalist business should be able to override a local culture whenever it believes doing so could increase its profits.Anyone?

[ballengeich]

Anyone?
Aye

[McSwanky]

AyeEven the people who live in linlithgow who support the name change?

[ballengeich]

Even the people who live in linlithgow who support the name change?
Aye

[McSwanky]

AyeOkay then. Enjoy the rest of your night.

[ballengeich]

Okay then. Enjoy the rest of your night.
You too. I just don't think that people who support the change of name have given adequate attention to the background.

Black bitch is a description of a female dog of a particular colour. If people find the name offensive in Linlithgow they need education in local culture.

[McSwanky]

You too. I just don't think that people who support the change of name have given adequate attention to the background.

Black bitch is a description of a female dog of a particular colour. If people find the name offensive in Linlithgow they need education in local culture.

And I don't equate the name to the background. Surely the story of the dog doesn't die because someone changes the name of the pub to something that means almost exactly the same thing?

[ballengeich]

And I don't equate the name to the background. Surely the story of the dog doesn't die because someone changes the name of the pub to something that means almost exactly the same thing?
Then what's the purpose in changing the name if the change doesn't matter? The people of Linlithgow are proud to be called Black Bitches. It's their culture - an international company owning a pub shouldn't be taking anything from them.

[McSwanky]

Then what's the purpose in changing the name if the change doesn't matter? The people of Linlithgow are proud to be called Black Bitches. It's their culture - an international company owning a pub shouldn't be taking anything from them.5000 people have signed the petition, not all will be from linlithgow. Population of linlithgow is at least 15000. I think it's disingenuous to broad brush the people of linlithgow as you have above. A fair whack of them (I hesitate to say the majority?) either don't care about the name change or possibly even support it.

Anyway, I'll duck out now as although I know people who stay in linlithgow, I'm not one of those myself. Maybe I just don't get it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've enjoyed reading the debate and there's some good points and interesting side stories. However, you will never convince a racist that changing a name of a pub that has zero racist or misogynist intention behind it's naming, is anything other than another attack by looney leftists on their culture. I still can't help but feel that things like this are counterproductive and play into the hands of bigots.

[lapsedhibee]

I've enjoyed reading the debate and there's some good points and interesting side stories. However, you will never convince a racist that changing a name of a pub that has zero racist or misogynist intention behind it's naming, is anything other than another attack by looney leftists on their culture. I still can't help but feel that things like this are counterproductive and play into the hands of bigots.

Did the RAF similarly play into the hands of bigots when they replaced the gravestone of a black dog whose naming also had zero racist or misogynist intentions? :dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

Did the RAF similarly play into the hands of bigots when they replaced the gravestone of a black dog whose naming also had zero racist or misogynist intentions? :dunno:

Yes. The dog was named long before the term was intended or perceived to cause offence. Retrospectively changing historical names, language and terminology is not what we should be concentrating on, we should be looking to improve the present and future whilst acknowledging the mistakes of the past. Trying to obliterate past errors is a mistake, we need to own those mistakes, understand them and remember them going forward to enable us to improve.

If anything, the RAF dog story confirms my opinion, it did nothing to improve the anti-racism cause but only entrenched actual racists in their belief that their culture was under attack.

[bawheid]

And I don't equate the name to the background. Surely the story of the dog doesn't die because someone changes the name of the pub to something that means almost exactly the same thing?

What if Ron Gordon decided “Capital City Greens” was more marketable in America than “Hibernian”. The story of the club wouldn’t die just because we changed the name, right? It’d be fine.

[He's here!]

Yes. The dog was named long before the term was intended or perceived to cause offence. Retrospectively changing historical names, language and terminology is not what we should be concentrating on, we should be looking to improve the present and future whilst acknowledging the mistakes of the past. Trying to obliterate past errors is a mistake, we need to own those mistakes, understand them and remember them going forward to enable us to improve.

If anything, the RAF dog story confirms my opinion, it did nothing to improve the anti-racism cause but only entrenched actual racists in their belief that their culture was under attack.

Pretty much agree with all of that. The naming of this pub, though, was not a past error or a mistake that needs to be learned from. It's a quirky name for sure and undoubtedly a talking point but no offence was ever intended - nor should be taken by anyone who takes the time to find out about it.

[He's here!]

And I don't equate the name to the background. Surely the story of the dog doesn't die because someone changes the name of the pub to something that means almost exactly the same thing?

Whether you equate the name to the background is surely beside the point? The background is the key here and, as I've said in an earlier post, if we ignore that then there's potentially no end to what should be retrospectively swept away.

[McSwanky]

What if Ron Gordon decided “Capital City Greens” was more marketable in America than “Hibernian”. The story of the club wouldn’t die just because we changed the name, right? It’d be fine.Very clever. I see what you've done there.

Two can play at that game though... I assume the pub has over 10,000 people attending once every couple of weeks, yes? And many thousands more keeping an eye on the Web to see how many pints they've sold compared to the other best 11 pubs in Linlithgow?

Do me a favour and compare apples with apples next time!

[heretoday]

It's just a pub. They're probably all huns in it anyway.

[lapsedhibee]

Yes. The dog was named long before the term was intended or perceived to cause offence. Retrospectively changing historical names, language and terminology is not what we should be concentrating on, we should be looking to improve the present and future whilst acknowledging the mistakes of the past. Trying to obliterate past errors is a mistake, we need to own those mistakes, understand them and remember them going forward to enable us to improve.

If anything, the RAF dog story confirms my opinion, it did nothing to improve the anti-racism cause but only entrenched actual racists in their belief that their culture was under attack.

Don't disagree, though never thought of the RAF as loony leftists before!

[lapsedhibee]

What if Ron Gordon decided “Capital City Greens” was more marketable in America than “Hibernian”. The story of the club wouldn’t die just because we changed the name, right? It’d be fine.
Pretty sure a big club in Glasgow has changed its name a bit quite recently, and the culture/traditions/history didn't die out. Unfortunately.

[Keith_M]

Pretty sure a big club in Glasgow has changed its name a bit quite recently, and the culture/traditions/history didn't die out. Unfortunately.


Putting 'The' in front of the name doesn't change much, though.

If they'd wanted real change, they should have called the new one 'Not The Rangers'.

[lapsedhibee]

Putting 'The' in front of the name doesn't change much, though.


Messing with traditions, history going back to late 17th century, etc, though. :wink:

[Skol]

I am not sure how I feel on this one as I can see both sides of the debate.

The reality though is that locally it will always be known by the original name. The town whereI grew up had a range of pubs that were known by names not on the signage. As a youngster I was always confused by this and never got round to working out why they all had different names

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't disagree, though never thought of the RAF as loony leftists before!

Speaking as an ex soldier, they definitely are. :greengrin

[stu in nottingham]

Sometimes I wistfully wonder what will happen to Black Bag The Faithful Border Bin Liner.

I smell trouble.

25337

[Kato]

I think we fundamentally disagree so much on this that I'll agree to disagree and leave it there.Tell you what, if the owners backtracked, kept the name but publicised the story of the background heavily - then the anti-bigotry point would have been made anyway, no harm done.

I'd be far happier if there was more done to tear down statues of slave owners and "witch" fingers anway along with getting shot of street names of the same. Putting those people up on pedestals as though they are something to look up to is airbrushing history.




It's just a pub. They're probably all huns in it anyway.

Under-rated aspect. If you've ever been in Lithgy during the marching season it's hardly edifying.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Glory Lurker]

Sometimes I wistfully wonder what will happen to Black Bag The Faithful Border Bin Liner.

I smell trouble.

25337

Black Bag was killed by kindness. A tragic tale.

[Keith_M]

My thought for today, on how everyone interprets things differently...


"One Man's Laughter is another Manslaughter."

[greenlex]

I think if the pub is renamed it’ll probably still he called the black bitch by locals in any case. Pubs to this day where I grew up are still to this day called by names that were long gone by the time I was drinking in them and that in itself wasn’t yesterday. They’re still called by they’re names that pre dates the 70s or even before then.

[Kato]

I think if the pub is renamed it’ll probably still he called the black bitch by locals in any case. Pubs to this day where I grew up are still to this day called by names that were long gone by the time I was drinking in them and that in itself wasn’t yesterday. They’re still called by they’re names that pre dates the 70s or even before then.Ma Wilson's - Clan Tavern - The Cabbage and Ribs . Now it's shut forever but its still "Ma Wilson's".

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[lapsedhibee]

Ma Wilson's - Clan Tavern - The Cabbage and Ribs . Now it's shut forever but its still "Ma Wilson's".


Ah, Betty Moss's. :nostalgiabutnotfortheempire:

[Keith_M]

I see the local MP, Martyn Day,has now waded in to the debate


"In his motion, the SNP MP called on the Suffolk-based pub giant to “abandon plans to change the name of the tavern in a misguided attempt at virtue signalling, and instead recognise the nation’s history and culture”."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-black-bitch-pub-renaming-25636777

[cabbageandribs1875]

I see the local MP, Martyn Day,has now waded in to the debate


"In his motion, the SNP MP called on the Suffolk-based pub giant to “abandon plans to change the name of the tavern in a misguided attempt at virtue signalling, and instead recognise the nation’s history and culture”."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-black-bitch-pub-renaming-25636777



Greene King said the name change was part of its commitment to being an “anti-racist organisation” and it had carried out extensive consultation with local groups before making its decision.


maybe these local groups should give it's reasoning if that's the case.......but i wouldn't trust that statement by greene king

[lapsedhibee]

I see the local MP, Martyn Day,has now waded in to the debate


"In his motion, the SNP MP called on the Suffolk-based pub giant to “abandon plans to change the name of the tavern in a misguided attempt at virtue signalling, and instead recognise the nation’s history and culture”."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-black-bitch-pub-renaming-25636777

Is Linlithgow a nation? :confused:

[Just Alf]

Is Linlithgow a nation? :confused:That 'jarred' with me as I read it.... it was a good general point ruined by being needlessly over political?

[Kato]

Is Linlithgow a nation? :confused:It's a state.

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[Keith_M]

I think we should compile a list of pubs with dodgy names.

Here's my contribution...


https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/the-cock-inn-pub.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C324

[stu in nottingham]

I think we should compile a list of pubs with dodgy names.

Here's my contribution...


https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/the-cock-inn-pub.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C324

All of Nottingham will see your Cock and raise you a Horn In Hand.

25347

[Keith_M]

All of Nottingham will see your Cock and raise you a Horn In Hand.

25347


I see your Horny Hand and raise you...


The Farmers Arms, Upperthong (https://pubswith.com/locations/england/yorkshire-and-the-humber/west-yorkshire/upperthong).


If you can say the full pub and place name without a smirk on your face, you get a free pint!

[Fuzzywuzzy]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/three-bellends-pub-renamed-two-24327605.amp