Red cards

[Dublin07]

With the recent red cards and the discussion about it had a look at when teams last had a red card. It includes all domestic games in Scotland.
The result is staggering and clearly shows who gets the benefit of the most “luck”.
Also celtic and rangers last red card were against each other so never benefited any other team in the league.

Games since a red card
Hearts 2
Motherwell 2
Livi 1
Hibs 2
Aberdeen 7
St Johnstone 1
St mirren 10
Dundee Utd 12
Dundee 13
Celtic 17
Ross county 36
Rangers 66

[greenginger]

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/8295/los15-14-october-2021.pdf

I don’t know what’s gone wrong with the SFA’s. suspensions list.

Thats the most up to date one on their site. Darren McGregors red is not even listed yet.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Would their last red have been McGregor for the outrageous kick out at McNulty?

[lord bunberry]

The handball against Falkirk is the most astonishing decision I’ve ever seen, it was so blatant. The referee should have been sacked on the spot at the end of the game.

[CMurdoch]

With the recent red cards and the discussion about it had a look at when teams last had a red card. It includes all domestic games in Scotland.
The result is staggering and clearly shows who gets the benefit of the most “luck”.
Also celtic and rangers last red card were against each other so never benefited any other team in the league.

Games since a red card
Hearts 1
Motherwell 1
Livi 1
Hibs 2
Aberdeen 6
St Johnstone 6
St mirren 9
Dundee Utd 11
Dundee 13
Celtic 17
Ross county 36
Rangers 66

Ross County is the impressive stat.
Usually the teams under the most defensive pressure would be the ones having most players sent of.
They have bucked that trend which shows great discipline.
They had Iain Vigurs playing for them until this season and I always thought he was a red card in waiting as was big Draper.

Rangers red card situation has changed since Morelos stopped retaliating although should have gone against Hibs last season.
Their lack of sending offs also hints at how little pressure they were under last season in winning the league.

Avoiding red cards is mostly about discipline from the players and managers removing players on a yellow if they are looking like getting a red. Occasionally players are unlucky and get sent of through referee error. VAR will be a major help with that as we seen in England with sending off decisions being changed in both directions during a game.

I'm guessing that's not the knee jerk reaction answer the OP was looking for.

[JimBHibees]

Ross County is the impressive stat.
Usually the teams under the most defensive pressure would be the ones having most players sent of.
They have bucked that trend which shows great discipline.
They had Iain Vigurs playing for them until this season and I always thought he was a red card in waiting as was big Draper.

Rangers red card situation has changed since Morelos stopped retaliating although should have gone against Hibs last season.
Their lack of sending offs also hints at how little pressure they were under last season in winning the league.

Morelos didn't stop retaliating he just didn't get sent off. Blatant red cards against both us and Dundee United ignored but then retrospective given which obviously doesn't help the teams he should have been sent off against.

[CMurdoch]

Morelos didn't stop retaliating he just didn't get sent off. Blatant red cards against both us and Dundee United ignored but then retrospective given which obviously doesn't help the teams he should have been sent off against.

Obviously I remember him standing on Porteous last season.
What were the circumstances against Dundee Utd?

[Dublin07]

Obviously I remember him standing on Porteous last season.
What were the circumstances against Dundee Utd?

He elbowed someone in the face

[mal]

With the recent red cards and the discussion about it had a look at when teams last had a red card. It includes all domestic games in Scotland.
The result is staggering and clearly shows who gets the benefit of the most “luck”.
Also celtic and rangers last red card were against each other so never benefited any other team in the league.

Games since a red card
Hearts 1
Motherwell 1
Livi 1
Hibs 2
Aberdeen 6
St Johnstone 6
St mirren 9
Dundee Utd 11
Dundee 13
Celtic 17
Ross county 36
Rangers 66

I wonder how many clear red cards the Rangers should have had in that time? They should have had back-to-back reds in the games against us and Hearts last month. And I think there was a similar thing last season where they should have had Morelos sent off against us then Roofe should have walked in the next match against St Johnstone.

[JimBHibees]

He elbowed someone in the face

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-premiership/12160214/red-for-morelos

[CMurdoch]

I wonder how many clear red cards the Rangers should have had in that time? They should have had back-to-back reds in the games against us and Hearts last month. And I think there was a similar thing last season where they should have had Morelos sent off against us then Roofe should have walked in the next match against St Johnstone.

Hopefully VAR will identify these incidents in future but Hibs players will be caught out with the same technology so we won't necessarily gain.

[Kato]

I wonder how many clear red cards the Rangers should have had in that time? They should have had back-to-back reds in the games against us and Hearts last month. And I think there was a similar thing last season where they should have had Morelos sent off against us then Roofe should have walked in the next match against St Johnstone.Mmm, it's almost like some kind of pattern is emerging here. I wonder if anyone could point it out to the authorities?

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[JimBHibees]

Hopefully VAR will identify these incidents in future but Hibs players will be caught out with the same technology so we won't necessarily gain.

Same refs deciding whether to refer back to ref though. Is var definitely coming in?

[CMurdoch]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-premiership/12160214/red-for-morelos

Thanks Jim. He should have gone, the wee look before he does it is the damning part and VAR will pick up that kind of incident.
Can't see VAR arriving in Scotland until 2023/24 season though.

[JimBHibees]

Thanks Jim. He should have gone, the wee look before he does it is the damning part and VAR will pick up that kind of incident.
Can't see VAR arriving in Scotland until 2023/24 season though.

The referee had the same view as the camera though.

[Jim44]

Ross County is the impressive stat.
Usually the teams under the most defensive pressure would be the ones having most players sent of.
They have bucked that trend which shows great discipline.
They had Iain Vigurs playing for them until this season and I always thought he was a red card in waiting as was big Draper.

Rangers red card situation has changed since Morelos stopped retaliating although should have gone against Hibs last season.
Their lack of sending offs also hints at how little pressure they were under last season in winning the league.

Avoiding red cards is mostly about discipline from the players and managers removing players on a yellow if they are looking like getting a red. Occasionally players are unlucky and get sent of through referee error. VAR will be a major help with that as we seen in England with sending off decisions being changed in both directions during a game.

I'm guessing that's not the knee jerk reaction answer the OP was looking for.

Not a knee jerk reaction, either, but probably the response the OP expected........ Nobody will ever convince me, although you put forward a reasonable case, CM, that Rangers are light on red cards because of bias and concern for their status with the powers that be.

[mal]

A further interesting stat: since the Rangers' last domestic red card (December 2019 v Celtic) they've had 4 players sent off in Europa League matches. Of the Rangers' last 7 red cards 5 have been in European competition; and 8 out of the last 18. It's almost as if different standards are being applied...

[Hermit Crab]

Same refs deciding whether to refer back to ref though. Is var definitely coming in?


True but VAR gives refs less hiding places, the excuse of 'I didn't see it' won't wash as they'll be forced to go and have a look at the incident and make a decision.

[Smartie]

Ross County is the impressive stat.
Usually the teams under the most defensive pressure would be the ones having most players sent of.
They have bucked that trend which shows great discipline.
They had Iain Vigurs playing for them until this season and I always thought he was a red card in waiting as was big Draper.

Rangers red card situation has changed since Morelos stopped retaliating although should have gone against Hibs last season.
Their lack of sending offs also hints at how little pressure they were under last season in winning the league.

Avoiding red cards is mostly about discipline from the players and managers removing players on a yellow if they are looking like getting a red. Occasionally players are unlucky and get sent of through referee error. VAR will be a major help with that as we seen in England with sending off decisions being changed in both directions during a game.

I'm guessing that's not the knee jerk reaction answer the OP was looking for.

Rangers red card stat has changed since the point they were able to act with impunity.

There have been countless red card offences within that time that really should have been punished (even allowing for the odd honest mistake).

Questions should really be being asked about why Rangers players can’t be sent off.

[CapitalGreen]

True but VAR gives refs less hiding places, the excuse of 'I didn't see it' won't wash as they'll be forced to go and have a look at the incident and make a decision.

Who exactly is going to hold them to account?

[jeffers]

Haven’t the Huns had something like 6 red cards in Europe in the same period it’s been since they received one in Scotland ?:hmmm:

[007]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-premiership/12160214/red-for-morelos

Kris Boyd admitting Rangers got a wrong decision in their favour, that's a first isn't it?

[Hermit Crab]

Who exactly is going to hold them to account?


If the clubs had balls they would. Fan protests too.

[hibby rae]

Haven’t the Huns had something like 6 red cards in Europe in the same period it’s been since they received one in Scotland ?:hmmm:

Someone told me the last Rangers league red at Ibrox was Terry Butcher.

I haven't been able to confirm this by lookong online though.

[Hermit Crab]

Someone told me the last Rangers league red at Ibrox was Terry Butcher.

I haven't been able to confirm this by lookong online though.


Haha. :tee hee:

[mal]

Someone told me the last Rangers league red at Ibrox was Terry Butcher.

I haven't been able to confirm this by lookong online though.

Here's their list of reds: Rangers Red Card List (fitbastats.com) (https://www.fitbastats.com/rangers/player_redcards.php)

[mal]

Haven’t the Huns had something like 6 red cards in Europe in the same period it’s been since they received one in Scotland ?:hmmm:

See my earlier post.

[jeffers]

See my earlier post.

Sorry mal, missed your one.

[A Hi-Bee]

A hun is a hun is a hun, a sleekit wee slimy creature who gets away with as much as they possibly can in the Scottish game.
Var is a wee bit like the polis investigating the polis, or lawyers and doctors investigating themselves it will make no difference as one ref is not going to make another ref look stupid, its just not going to make much difference although I expect it to make a difference to the teams outside of the 2 uglies. They will get even more decisions against them and in favour of the weedgie 2.
The hun is corrupt I do not understand any Hibs man saying otherwise.
:aok:

[JimBHibees]

Someone told me the last Rangers league red at Ibrox was Terry Butcher.

I haven't been able to confirm this by lookong online though.

:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Kris Boyd admitting Rangers got a wrong decision in their favour, that's a first isn't it?

Obviously said it after Rangers won the game

[Dublin07]

Ross County is the impressive stat.
Usually the teams under the most defensive pressure would be the ones having most players sent of.
They have bucked that trend which shows great discipline.
They had Iain Vigurs playing for them until this season and I always thought he was a red card in waiting as was big Draper.

Rangers red card situation has changed since Morelos stopped retaliating although should have gone against Hibs last season.
Their lack of sending offs also hints at how little pressure they were under last season in winning the league.

Avoiding red cards is mostly about discipline from the players and managers removing players on a yellow if they are looking like getting a red. Occasionally players are unlucky and get sent of through referee error. VAR will be a major help with that as we seen in England with sending off decisions being changed in both directions during a game.

I'm guessing that's not the knee jerk reaction answer the OP was looking for.
I wasn’t looking for a knee jerk reaction. The stats speak for them self. If you have watched Scottish football for the last 2 years and think that those stats are not biased towards anyone that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. A knee jerk reaction would have been to scream cheats the seconds porteous was sent off and not back it with any information to show its not balanced. You are right you would expect teams attacking to have less red cards but 66 games without one no chance.

[hhibs]

A hun is a hun is a hun, a sleekit wee slimy creature who gets away with as much as they possibly can in the Scottish game.
Var is a wee bit like the polis investigating the polis, or lawyers and doctors investigating themselves it will make no difference as one ref is not going to make another ref look stupid, its just not going to make much difference although I expect it to make a difference to the teams outside of the 2 uglies. They will get even more decisions against them and in favour of the weedgie 2.
The hun is corrupt I do not understand any Hibs man saying otherwise.
:aok:

:top marks

[PatHead]

I wasn’t looking for a knee jerk reaction. The stats speak for them self. If you have watched Scottish football for the last 2 years and think that those stats are not biased towards anyone that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. A knee jerk reaction would have been to scream cheats the seconds porteous was sent off and not back it with any information to show its not balanced. You are right you would expect teams attacking to have less red cards but 66 games without one no chance.

Have they had retrospective cards in that period?

[Dublin07]

Have they had retrospective cards in that period?
Yes they have had 3 retrospective red cards since then that they honest officials missed. 2 for Morelos and 1 for roofe.

[CMurdoch]

A further interesting stat: since the Rangers' last domestic red card (December 2019 v Celtic) they've had 4 players sent off in Europa League matches. Of the Rangers' last 7 red cards 5 have been in European competition; and 8 out of the last 18. It's almost as if different standards are being applied...

It's because Rangers players are under far more pressure when playing in Europe where they are playing against other teams with multi million pound players.
It's also worth remembering that Hibs had 2 players sent off in only 4 European games this season.

In Scotland only Celtic can generally put Rangers players under sustained pressure, sufficient enough to make them lose their discipline.
Even the best of the rest, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are made up of a combination of free transfers, low transfer fee players, players unable to move up another level and developing young players. There are probably no players currently in those teams that would currently get a regular game for Rangers.
Those teams are playing at their limit all game against Rangers and inevitably things go wrong and the wheels come of.

[Kato]

It's because Rangers players are under far more pressure when playing in Europe where they are playing against other teams with multi million pound players.




A bit of that. Also the refs aren't as likely to be affected by their "charisma" as Scottish refs are.


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[CMurdoch]

A bit of that. Also the refs aren't as likely to be affected by their "charisma" as Scottish refs are.


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There's a bit of that but the team full of £200k players will generally lose one way or another to the one filled with £5 million players.
Occasionally the wee team will win a battle but in the modern football era they will inevitably lose the war.

[Kato]

There's a bit of that but the team full of £200k players will generally lose one way or another to the one filled with £5 million players.
Occasionally the wee team will win a battle but in the modern football era they will inevitably lose the war.Agreed on that but we aren't discussing budgets producing winning teams. It's the fact they have gone so long without a red card when there have been clear and obvious incidents as well as minor ones which fly by.

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[CMurdoch]

Agreed on that but we aren't discussing budgets producing winning teams. It's the fact they have gone so long without a red card when there have been clear and obvious incidents as well as minor ones which fly by.

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I reckon we could find red cards for Hibs players if we had the same obsession. We see what we want to see and disregard the rest.
Smaller teams have probably had raw deals at Easter Road on red cards due to home supporter influence of the referee but we don't notice it just as we accept and make little comment when bad refereeing decisions go in our favour whilst going ape**** at the ones that go against us.
Read any teams supporter forum and it is full of the same drivel, the referees, the media, the football authorities etc are against their team and such and such other team gets all the decisions, are treated better etc. Our supporters are great. Their supporters are bad. It's all a bit pantomime and difficult to take seriously.

[matty_f]

A further interesting stat: since the Rangers' last domestic red card (December 2019 v Celtic) they've had 4 players sent off in Europa League matches. Of the Rangers' last 7 red cards 5 have been in European competition; and 8 out of the last 18. It's almost as if different standards are being applied...

Amazing that the players’ discipline goes on those particular games and Gerrard doesn’t remember to take off the players on a yellow when they play in Europe.

[CMurdoch]

Amazing that the players’ discipline goes on those particular games and Gerrard doesn’t remember to take off the players on a yellow when they play in Europe.

Is that what happened with Hibs in Europe this season Matty?
Played 4, Sent Off 2
Pretty shabby.

[Sir David Gray]

Is that what happened with Hibs in Europe this season Matty?
Played 4, Sent Off 2
Pretty shabby.

One of those red cards (Newell's) was a complete nonsense.

[CMurdoch]

One of those red cards (Newell's) was a complete nonsense.

It was just numbers the guys where quoting.
They didn't examine the incidents so I did the same.
Bloody stats :wink:

[1875godsgift]

There's a bit of that but the team full of £200k players will generally lose one way or another to the one filled with £5 million players.
Occasionally the wee team will win a battle but in the modern football era they will inevitably lose the war.

Aye, especially if refs haven't dared give the team formerly known as rangers a red card for the last 66 games!

66 ****ing games, that actually really shows how corrupt the game is in Scotland.

[Geo_1875]

Surprised nobody has mentioned that the Scottish media do not conduct witch-hunts against Celtc and The Rangers players. Brown and Morelos apart, the media actually whitewash their "misdemeanours". How many times do we hear a chorus of "he's not that type of player" when the evidence shows that he is that type of player. Referees obviously buy into this.

[CMurdoch]

Surprised nobody has mentioned that the Scottish media do not conduct witch-hunts against Celtc and The Rangers players. Brown and Morelos apart, the media actually whitewash their "misdemeanours". How many times do we hear a chorus of "he's not that type of player" when the evidence shows that he is that type of player. Referees obviously buy into this.

Ok, I'll bite. Is this some sort of ironic post?
There is a very obvious reply to it involving a player, Hibs, a broadsheet journalist and then another poor tackle by said player in his next game after publication :wink:
FWIW I think said player just has a flawed tackling technique which needs amended before he gets himself in further trouble.

As regards Morelos, he has that South American footballer thing going on where anything goes. Like Suarez he is doing his best to quell it but it will always be there bubbling under the surface. Brown has a very measured and intelligent approach to his dark arts.

[Onion]

Hopefully VAR will identify these incidents in future but Hibs players will be caught out with the same technology so we won't necessarily gain.

Folk hanging onto the hope that VAR will help right some of the wrongs need to remember that it will just be another OF sympathiser who’ll be making a decision. VAR will just make it easier for coward/biased refs up here to duck all tough decisions, leaving his pal in the office to corroborate or overturn. It’s just a 2nd layer of corruption and bias.

The only way I’d trust VAR if decisions were reviewed by high profile / respected English / foreign officials. Absolutely zero reason why this level of independence cannot be embedded in Scottish VAR, other than SFAs own leanings towards the Glasgow twins. The OF would also object to any form of level playing field being introduced to the game.

[McSwanky]

that South American footballer thing going on

I'm not sure I like where you're going with that. A radge is a radge, and you get radges from all countries.

Brown has got himself in plenty of bother with refs, I'm not sure 'measured' and 'intelligent' can really be applied to him.

[McSwanky]

Folk hanging onto the hope that VAR will help right some of the wrongs need to remember that it will just be another OF sympathiser who’ll be making a decision. VAR will just make it easier for coward/biased refs up here to duck all tough decisions, leaving his pal in the office to corroborate or overturn. It’s just a 2nd layer of corruption and bias.

The only way I’d trust VAR if decisions were reviewed by high profile / respected English / foreign officials. Absolutely zero reason why this level of independence cannot be embedded in Scottish VAR, other than SFAs own leanings towards the Glasgow twins. The OF would also object to any form of level playing field being introduced to the game.

I think someone said it already, but it does close down some of the hiding spaces for the officials. No longer will they be able to say they didn't see something happening in the moment. Of course it's not going to be a silver bullet, as we've seen elsewhere with contentious decisions, but I do think it will help a bit.

[Onion]

Aye, especially if refs haven't dared give the team formerly known as rangers a red card for the last 66 games!

66 ****ing games, that actually really shows how corrupt the game is in Scotland.

That’s an interesting stat. Be great is someone could put that in context of other teams in other leagues, like the EPL, Eng Champ, Scot Champ. Might be very revealing.

[WhileTheChief..]

Folk hanging onto the hope that VAR will help right some of the wrongs need to remember that it will just be another OF sympathiser who’ll be making a decision. VAR will just make it easier for coward/biased refs up here to duck all tough decisions, leaving his pal in the office to corroborate or overturn. It’s just a 2nd layer of corruption and bias.

The only way I’d trust VAR if decisions were reviewed by high profile / respected English / foreign officials. Absolutely zero reason why this level of independence cannot be embedded in Scottish VAR, other than SFAs own leanings towards the Glasgow twins. The OF would also object to any form of level playing field being introduced to the game.

Could just as easily be fans of Hibs or any other club using VAR.

You're forgetting that the entire world gets to see the decision that VAR comes up with. You think the guys working it are just going to ignore blatant issues when Rangers are playing?

The Old Firm can't object to what you are suggesting. In fact none of your post makes any sense at all, it's just a rant really.

Where's the corruption and bias you talk of and why isn't anyone at Hibs acting on it if it's so obvious?

VAR will help get decisions correct, that's the whole point of it!

[CMurdoch]

Folk hanging onto the hope that VAR will help right some of the wrongs need to remember that it will just be another OF sympathiser who’ll be making a decision. VAR will just make it easier for coward/biased refs up here to duck all tough decisions, leaving his pal in the office to corroborate or overturn. It’s just a 2nd layer of corruption and bias.

The only way I’d trust VAR if decisions were reviewed by high profile / respected English / foreign officials. Absolutely zero reason why this level of independence cannot be embedded in Scottish VAR, other than SFAs own leanings towards the Glasgow twins. The OF would also object to any form of level playing field being introduced to the game.

That is just mad paranoia

[PatHead]

Things will never change until referees start to come from a range of local associations.
The fact that referees, on the whole, come from 2 associations shows how corrupt refereeing is in Scotland.
No amount of defence by any poster/press/club can change that.

[greenginger]

SFA have updated their suspension list and Ryan Porteous is due to miss another game.

First game after 10th Nov. Home to Dundee unless they try and shoehorn a postponed game before that fixture.

[mal]

It's because Rangers players are under far more pressure when playing in Europe where they are playing against other teams with multi million pound players.
It's also worth remembering that Hibs had 2 players sent off in only 4 European games this season.

In Scotland only Celtic can generally put Rangers players under sustained pressure, sufficient enough to make them lose their discipline.
Even the best of the rest, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are made up of a combination of free transfers, low transfer fee players, players unable to move up another level and developing young players. There are probably no players currently in those teams that would currently get a regular game for Rangers.
Those teams are playing at their limit all game against Rangers and inevitably things go wrong and the wheels come of.

Or the "Glasgow long blink" ensures that the Rangers are under a lot less pressure domestically because clear red cards are not awarded against them when they would be against other teams. I pointed out several examples earlier in this thread, including two in the last month. In both of those games the Rangers were under pressure and being challenged at the top end of the table. It's not that they did not commit red card offences, it's just that those offences were ignored, including by the Compliance Officer.

[PatHead]

Or the "Glasgow long blink" ensures that the Rangers are under a lot less pressure domestically because clear red cards are not awarded against them when they would be against other teams. I pointed out several examples earlier in this thread, including two in the last month. In both of those games the Rangers were under pressure and being challenged at the top end of the table. It's not that they did not commit red card offences, it's just that those offences were ignored, including by the Compliance Officer.

And the TV companies/press.

[CMurdoch]

I'm not sure I like where you're going with that. A radge is a radge, and you get radges from all countries.

Brown has got himself in plenty of bother with refs, I'm not sure 'measured' and 'intelligent' can really be applied to him.

Watch Brown at Fergusons goal on Saturday.
He pushes Hedges into the path of the scorers marker to block him resulting in an unchallenged header for Ferguson and a goal for his team.
That is measured and intelligent and he has developed this over years along with winding up opponents.
Importantly Brown's winding up of opponents and assorted cheating is not about anger it is about gaining advantage for his team.

The problem with radges like Morelos is it is all about them and their anger and in his case that cost his team dearly for 2 seasons.
He has improved greatly but there is always a chance it will appear at an inopportune moment.
Ryan Porteous has a bit of this about him as well. He can be wound up and made to react. Coincidently Morelos wound him up by giving him a dunt in the back during the last game. I also remember Chris Kane winding him up in the Cup Final. He needs to learn to keep his concentration and that means not being wound up. Wound up results in mistakes, cards and suspensions, none of which benefit the team.

VAR will catch out players who can't control themselves and they will be punished in real time rather than retrospectively as currently happens when referees miss incidents..

[WhileTheChief..]

I wasn’t looking for a knee jerk reaction. The stats speak for them self. If you have watched Scottish football for the last 2 years and think that those stats are not biased towards anyone that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. A knee jerk reaction would have been to scream cheats the seconds porteous was sent off and not back it with any information to show its not balanced. You are right you would expect teams attacking to have less red cards but 66 games without one no chance.

In 66 games Rangers will have probably had every official in Scotland at their games, whether as ref, asst ref or 4th official.

You think all of them got together at the start of the season and agreed not to send any Rangers players off??

It's an impressive achievement if they did, even better that they have carried it forward to this season too!

If there were blatant penalties that the ref's deliberately didn't give then VAR is surely the answer. If anything, Rangers will have more to fear from VAR than any other team due to the amount of decisions that go in their favour?!

[Smartie]

In 66 games Rangers will have probably had every official in Scotland at their games, whether as ref, asst ref or 4th official.

You think all of them got together at the start of the season and agreed not to send any Rangers players off??

It's an impressive achievement if they did, even better that they have carried it forward to this season too!

If there were blatant penalties that the ref's deliberately didn't give then VAR is surely the answer. If anything, Rangers will have more to fear from VAR than any other team due to the amount of decisions that go in their favour?!

I don't think it's necessarily a premeditated conspiracy but there's something going on - possibly west of Scotland referees knowing that their lives could be made hell with Porteous style intimidation if they simply carry their jobs out properly and deservedly send players off.

Honest mistakes happen, and I personally accept the explanations that Rangers may get fewer red cards as they tend to be on the attack rather than defence. But 66 games, including umpteen clearly wrong decisions? Nah, not having it.

Our past 4 or 5 games with Rangers have been decided by the odd goal, with one game-changing decision going their way every time. Once you can moan about and brush off. 2 gets frustrating. When you get to this stage you start asking yourself why you bother.

[CMurdoch]

Or the "Glasgow long blink" ensures that the Rangers are under a lot less pressure domestically because clear red cards are not awarded against them when they would be against other teams. I pointed out several examples earlier in this thread, including two in the last month. In both of those games the Rangers were under pressure and being challenged at the top end of the table. It's not that they did not commit red card offences, it's just that those offences were ignored, including by the Compliance Officer.

Most things are clear when you see it from every angle and have a minute to assess it.
Real time is totally different.
What i do believe in is the home crowd influencing the referee.
We saw that with the Porteous sending of and the Lundstrom non sending of at Ibrox. Loads of crowd reaction at the former and none at the latter.
Similarly had Morelos done his running over the top of Porteous at Easter Road when there was a crowd there the reaction would have been massive. It would have triggered the referee and he would have been sent of.
VAR will help remove that undue influence aspect and allow incidents to be better assessed.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don't think it's necessarily a premeditated conspiracy but there's something going on - possibly west of Scotland referees knowing that their lives could be made hell with Porteous style intimidation if they simply carry their jobs out properly and deservedly send players off.

Honest mistakes happen, and I personally accept the explanations that Rangers may get fewer red cards as they tend to be on the attack rather than defence. But 66 games, including umpteen clearly wrong decisions? Nah, not having it.

Our past 4 or 5 games with Rangers have been decided by the odd goal, with one game-changing decision going their way every time. Once you can moan about and brush off. 2 gets frustrating. When you get to this stage you start asking yourself why you bother.

So do you think club officials at Hibs are simply turning a blind eye to this corruption and bias? Does that make them culpable too?

Same for officials at every other club in the country?

We never hear of claims of corruption or bias from people that work in the game. It's only ever from disgruntled fans, usually after bad results. Coincidence??!!

[CMurdoch]

I don't think it's necessarily a premeditated conspiracy but there's something going on - possibly west of Scotland referees knowing that their lives could be made hell with Porteous style intimidation if they simply carry their jobs out properly and deservedly send players off.

Honest mistakes happen, and I personally accept the explanations that Rangers may get fewer red cards as they tend to be on the attack rather than defence. But 66 games, including umpteen clearly wrong decisions? Nah, not having it.

Our past 4 or 5 games with Rangers have been decided by the odd goal, with one game-changing decision going their way every time. Once you can moan about and brush off. 2 gets frustrating. When you get to this stage you start asking yourself why you bother.

You missed the offside goal we were awarded against them last season.
Disallowing the Porteous goal last season was the worst decision by a mile. I could see no reason for it.
His sending off in the last game was justifiable and the crowd reaction sealed the deal.

I believe VAR will help the wee teams greatly when they play at Ibrox and Parkhead.
As things stand 98% of a massive crowd is shouting for every decision and that is undue influence on the referee. Not because he is bias but because he is human.
VAR will iron out the big important decisions and take a big weight off the referee.

[Highwayman]

SFA have updated their suspension list and Ryan Porteous is due to miss another game.

First game after 10th Nov. Home to Dundee unless they try and shoehorn a postponed game before that fixture.

Interesting.Thought with the amount of bookings he was getting Porteous was closing in on another suspension.

Is there any other Hibs players close to being suspended.

[Smartie]

You missed the offside goal we were awarded against them last season.
Disallowing the Porteous goal last season was the worst decision by a mile. I could see no reason for it.
His sending off in the last game was justifiable and the crowd reaction sealed the deal.

I believe VAR will help the wee teams greatly when they play at Ibrox and Parkhead.
As things stand 98% of a massive crowd is shouting for every decision and that is undue influence on the referee. Not because he is bias but because he is human.
VAR will iron out the big important decisions and take a big weight off the referee.

Yeah, I agree with all these points and accept the one about the offside goal - albeit one marginally offside goal (the type of decision that is easy to get wrong) doesn't do much to cancel out all the other "honest mistakes" that have gone on in our recent games with them. Especially when it appears that other clubs are on the end of equally poor decisions.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Are we saying it doesn’t even out over the season?

Flabbergasted.

[CMurdoch]

Yeah, I agree with all these points and accept the one about the offside goal - albeit one marginally offside goal (the type of decision that is easy to get wrong) doesn't do much to cancel out all the other "honest mistakes" that have gone on in our recent games with them. Especially when it appears that other clubs are on the end of equally poor decisions.

The Porteous disallowed goal was the only one I couldn't get my head round.
VAR will help us at ibrox and Parkhead but that will be partly set off by helping smaller teams in the same way when they play at Easter Road.
Teams with a big home and away support currently have an advantage and as such we are fairly high up that advantage league.
We both sit in the East Stand and when an incident happens near our touchline we always put undue influence on the referee. I am usually impressed by the referees mental fortitude in ignoring us but it can't be easy. Multiply that by 5 at Ibrox and Parkhead and you have a lot of pressure on one guys psychy.

[Smartie]

The Porteous disallowed goal was the only one I couldn't get my head round.
VAR will help us at ibrox and Parkhead but that will be partly set off by helping smaller teams in the same way when they play at Easter Road.
Teams with a big home and away support currently have an advantage and as such we are fairly high up that advantage league.
We both sit in the East Stand and when an incident happens near our touchline we always put undue influence on the referee. I am usually impressed by the referees mental fortitude in ignoring us but it can't be easy. Multiply that by 5 at Ibrox and Parkhead and you have a lot of pressure on one guys psychy.

When we're talking about marginal offsides, I'm actually flabbergasted that referees (well, their assistants) manage to do so well with those over the piece. Having to be in the right position, and with players often running in opposite directions, as well as having the full width of the pitch to cover makes it appear almost impossible, yet they don't get it wrong that much.

It often takes me aback how different the game feels at pitch level and a few yards away rather than up high with a perfect vantage point - and that's before you get onto being able to watch an incident back several times from different angles.

So yes - I get your point, and I appreciate that referees only get one look at it.

I just think that there have been to many incidents go one way to be able to rationalise this particular domestic record that easily, especially when you see how often decisions go "the other way" in European competition.

[matty_f]

Is that what happened with Hibs in Europe this season Matty?
Played 4, Sent Off 2
Pretty shabby.

I don’t get the point you’re making. Hibs get players sent off in the domestic game as well - in fact 2 in our last 4 domestic games, coincidently.

[mal]

Most things are clear when you see it from every angle and have a minute to assess it.
Real time is totally different.
What i do believe in is the home crowd influencing the referee.
We saw that with the Porteous sending of and the Lundstrom non sending of at Ibrox. Loads of crowd reaction at the former and none at the latter.
Similarly had Morelos done his running over the top of Porteous at Easter Road when there was a crowd there the reaction would have been massive. It would have triggered the referee and he would have been sent of.
VAR will help remove that undue influence aspect and allow incidents to be better assessed.

So you do agree that the Rangers have been committing and getting away with multiple red card offences? And that you've changed your mind from claiming that it's because they're just so much better than other teams and are now citing pressure on the referees?

[A Hi-Bee]

The Porteous disallowed goal was the only one I couldn't get my head round.
VAR will help us at ibrox and Parkhead but that will be partly set off by helping smaller teams in the same way when they play at Easter Road.
Teams with a big home and away support currently have an advantage and as such we are fairly high up that advantage league.
We both sit in the East Stand and when an incident happens near our touchline we always put undue influence on the referee. I am usually impressed by the referees mental fortitude in ignoring us but it can't be easy. Multiply that by 5 at Ibrox and Parkhead and you have a lot of pressure on one guys psychy.

Is this someone sticking up for the hun and the ref's as well. Both as bent and corrupt as each other and I dont know how a Hibs man can stand up for them.........

:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ryan Porteous is closing on Liam Craig for top spot of the yellow card league


Craig has 6 in 8 games
Porteous 5 in 9 games, but along with his red card i think that makes him number one bad boy....this needs to stop

Van Veen 5 in 10

[lord bunberry]

That is just mad paranoia
You’re on the opposite end of the scale to mad paranoia, you point blank refuse to see any wrong. Sometimes there isn’t a logical explanation to things. I’d be surprised if there’s another team in Europe that’s gone that long without a red card, it was the same with penalties up until very recently.

[CMurdoch]

You’re on the opposite end of the scale to mad paranoia, you point blank refuse to see any wrong. Sometimes there isn’t a logical explanation to things. I’d be surprised if there’s another team in Europe that’s gone that long without a red card, it was the same with penalties up until very recently.

If anyone can show credible evidence of corruption in relation to refereeing in Scotland I will change my mind.
The truth is there is no such credible evidence just a combination of conspiracy theories and folk showing the equivalent of pictures of the Loch Ness monster.

What we get with human referees is human error, sometimes quite glaring but human error nonetheless.
VAR will improve that and the smallest teams will benefit most for the reasons I have explained in my earlier posts on this thread.

[CMurdoch]

Is this someone sticking up for the hun and the ref's as well. Both as bent and corrupt as each other and I dont know how a Hibs man can stand up for them.........

:greengrin

Why do you go to the football if you think it is bent and corrupt.
That makes no sense.

[WhileTheChief..]

Why do you go to the football if you think it is bent and corrupt.
That makes no sense.

It’s mental how often folk claim everything is corrupt when as you say there has never been any evidence to suggest it.

Not a single club official has ever made that complaint. Thousands of players and ex-players over the decades and not a peep, yet we’re meant to accept it as fact because some fans shout it non stop!

Remember the scandal in Italy a while back? Headline news everywhere. If the game here was proven to be corrupt to keep the OF at the top it would be one of the biggest sports news stories around.

[CMurdoch]

So you do agree that the Rangers have been committing and getting away with multiple red card offences? And that you've changed your mind from claiming that it's because they're just so much better than other teams and are now citing pressure on the referees?

That's a very selective editing of my posts there.
I see no corrupt course of conduct here in relation to referees dealing with Rangers players. There are separate incidents with different referees officiating. There is no credible evidence of corruption bias or any other offence.
A Celtic supporter might say Hibs got away with a red card for Porteous tackle on McGregor in our last game and if you pour through all our other games this season with blue spectacles you will no doubt find other contentious incidents involving Hibs players that were not picked up at the time.

[LaMotta]

That's a very selective editing of my posts there.
I see no corrupt course of conduct here in relation to referees dealing with Rangers players. There are separate incidents with different referees officiating. There is no credible evidence of corruption bias or any other offence.
A Celtic supporter might say Hibs got away with a red card for Porteous tackle on McGregor in our last game and if you pour through all our other games this season with blue spectacles you will no doubt find other contentious incidents involving Hibs players that were not picked up at the time.

Are you willing to admit that the presence of unconscious bias is a possibility in the decision making process of Scottish referees that could favour Rangers?

[CMurdoch]

Are you willing to admit that the presence of unconscious bias is a possibility in the decision making process of Scottish referees that could favour Rangers?

That's way beyond my ken. You are getting into the realms of the psychology of individuals but if pushed i would say no.
I've never thought Scottish referees are bias. I've thought some have been self important which isn't a good trait for a referee but not bias.
As i said earlier (see below) I believe large home crowds are potentially the most negative influence on a referee.

"What i do believe in is the home crowd influencing the referee.
We saw that with the Porteous sending of and the Lundstrom non sending of at Ibrox. Loads of crowd reaction to the former and none at the latter.
Similarly had Morelos done his running over the top of Porteous at Easter Road when there was a crowd their reaction would have been massive. It would have triggered the referee and he would have sent of Morelos.
VAR will help remove that undue influence aspect and allow incidents to be better assessed".

[tmb1875]

Is this someone sticking up for the hun and the ref's as well. Both as bent and corrupt as each other and I dont know how a Hibs man can stand up for them.........

:greengrin

Not for the 1st time, as bizarre as his rangers folk songs comments not so long ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PatHead]

That's a very selective editing of my posts there.
I see no corrupt course of conduct here in relation to referees dealing with Rangers players. There are separate incidents with different referees officiating. There is no credible evidence of corruption bias or any other offence.
A Celtic supporter might say Hibs got away with a red card for Porteous tackle on McGregor in our last game and if you pour through all our other games this season with blue spectacles you will no doubt find other contentious incidents involving Hibs players that were not picked up at the time.
If you read biographies by some old players they talk about pro Rangers bias. Wonder who missed the penalty, players getting goals disallowed or sent off.
It will never change until referees come from different associations.
There is definitely pro The Rangers bias whether old or new club.

[LaMotta]

That's way beyond my ken. You are getting into the realms of the psychology of individuals but if pushed i would say no.
I've never thought Scottish referees are bias. I've thought some have been self important which isn't a good trait for a referee but not bias.
As i said earlier (see below) I believe large home crowds are potentially the most negative influence on a referee.

"What i do believe in is the home crowd influencing the referee.
We saw that with the Porteous sending of and the Lundstrom non sending of at Ibrox. Loads of crowd reaction to the former and none at the latter.
Similarly had Morelos done his running over the top of Porteous at Easter Road when there was a crowd their reaction would have been massive. It would have triggered the referee and he would have sent of Morelos.
VAR will help remove that undue influence aspect and allow incidents to be better assessed".

Crowd influencing a ref is an example of unconscious bias though, so are you sure you are leaning towards saying no?

This Norwegian study talks about the prevalence of unconscious bias in refereeing decisions: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full

Interestingly it talks about "social influences" on refs decisions:

Successful teams' social influence can impact their match referees' important decisions. Given that the results of these decisions may advantage certain teams throughout the season, this issue concerns the fairness of the game overall. Referees' abilities to cope with various sources of social pressure should be considered when evaluating their expertise. Perhaps more importantly, referees' federations should be aware of these findings, and aim to develop relevant training methods so that referees can better resist the influences of social forces.

[CMurdoch]

If you read biographies by some old players they talk about pro Rangers bias. Wonder who missed the penalty, players getting goals disallowed or sent off.
It will never change until referees come from different associations.
There is definitely pro The Rangers bias whether old or new club.

I think there was far more scope for referee bias and corruption before the modern era so it could have taken place. Most games were played and never seen by anyone other than those who attended.
Now every game is filmed, every incident is covered from every angle and we can all look back at every aspect of a game at our leisure replaying tackles, off-sides and goals over and over, slow motion, frame by frame. Hindsight on such viewings is 20/20 and we can't understand why referees get decisions wrong when we can see perfectly what happened.
VAR will help the poor sods but they will still be criticised and accused of bias ...............and still without a shred of credible evidence.

[superfurryhibby]

Crowd influencing a ref is an example of unconscious bias though, so are you sure you are leaning towards saying no?

This Norwegian study talks about the prevalence of unconscious bias in refereeing decisions: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full

Interestingly it talks about "social influences" on refs decisions:

Successful teams' social influence can impact their match referees' important decisions. Given that the results of these decisions may advantage certain teams throughout the season, this issue concerns the fairness of the game overall. Referees' abilities to cope with various sources of social pressure should be considered when evaluating their expertise. Perhaps more importantly, referees' federations should be aware of these findings, and aim to develop relevant training methods so that referees can better resist the influences of social forces.


I think this unconscious bias thing is a bit too subtle for some.

[Eyrie]

I think there was far more scope for referee bias and corruption before the modern era so it could have taken place. Most games were played and never seen by anyone other than those who attended.
Now every game is filmed, every incident is covered from every angle and we can all look back at every aspect of a game at our leisure replaying tackles, off-sides and goals over and over, slow motion, frame by frame. Hindsight on such viewings is 20/20 and we can't understand why referees get decisions wrong when we can see perfectly what happened.
VAR will help the poor sods but they will still be criticised and accused of bias ...............and still without a shred of credible evidence.

Porteous' appeal against the red card was turned down but, even with TV pictures available, an almost identical tackle in the same game by Lundstrom saw no action taken by either the referee at the time or the compliance officer afterwards.

The compliance officer had all the angles available and no fans in the stands to subconsciously influence his decision.

[CMurdoch]

Crowd influencing a ref is an example of unconscious bias though, so are you sure you are leaning towards saying no?

This Norwegian study talks about the prevalence of unconscious bias in refereeing decisions: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full

Interestingly it talks about "social influences" on refs decisions:

Successful teams' social influence can impact their match referees' important decisions. Given that the results of these decisions may advantage certain teams throughout the season, this issue concerns the fairness of the game overall. Referees' abilities to cope with various sources of social pressure should be considered when evaluating their expertise. Perhaps more importantly, referees' federations should be aware of these findings, and aim to develop relevant training methods so that referees can better resist the influences of social forces.



I didn't see the crowd influencing a referees decisions as unconscious bias but I can now see that is exactly what it is.
Strangely the following section from the report states academically what i said in some of my posts about the influence of the home support on the referee

Sutter and Kocher (2004) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29) found that referees are more likely to award a penalty to the home team, suggesting that they may be subconsciously influenced by home crowd noise. This is consistent with other findings demonstrating that referees are biased toward the home team when awarding penalties (Nevill et al., 1996 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B24); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)), distributing extra time (Sutter and Kocher, 2004 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29); Garicano et al., 2005 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B10); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)) and administering disciplinary sanctions (Dawson and Dobson, 2007 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B5); Buraimo et al., 2010 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B3), 2012 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B4); Reilly and Witt, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B27)). The magnitude of referee bias also appears to be more prominent with increased crowd density (Goumas, 2014 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B11)), and referees with higher anxiety levels are more prone to the influence of social forces (e.g., crowd noise) compared with less anxious referees (Sors et al., 2019 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B28)). Thus, despite the intention and perception of impartiality (Johansen and Haugen, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B15)), the cumulative evidence suggests that referees' decisions are influenced by social forces.
Aiming to understand referees' decisions, and how they may be biased, Plessner et al. (2009) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B26) argued that football referees' decision-making is primarily automatic rather than deliberate, and that it is based on multiple rather than single cues. In addition to direct situational cues, crowd noise is a potential cue that may explain referee home team bias

[LaMotta]

I didn't see the crowd influencing a referees decisions as unconscious bias but I can now see that is exactly what it is.
Strangely the following section from the report states academically what i said in some of my posts about the influence of the home support on the referee

Sutter and Kocher (2004) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29) found that referees are more likely to award a penalty to the home team, suggesting that they may be subconsciously influenced by home crowd noise. This is consistent with other findings demonstrating that referees are biased toward the home team when awarding penalties (Nevill et al., 1996 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B24); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)), distributing extra time (Sutter and Kocher, 2004 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29); Garicano et al., 2005 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B10); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)) and administering disciplinary sanctions (Dawson and Dobson, 2007 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B5); Buraimo et al., 2010 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B3), 2012 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B4); Reilly and Witt, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B27)). The magnitude of referee bias also appears to be more prominent with increased crowd density (Goumas, 2014 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B11)), and referees with higher anxiety levels are more prone to the influence of social forces (e.g., crowd noise) compared with less anxious referees (Sors et al., 2019 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B28)). Thus, despite the intention and perception of impartiality (Johansen and Haugen, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B15)), the cumulative evidence suggests that referees' decisions are influenced by social forces.
Aiming to understand referees' decisions, and how they may be biased, Plessner et al. (2009) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B26) argued that football referees' decision-making is primarily automatic rather than deliberate, and that it is based on multiple rather than single cues. In addition to direct situational cues, crowd noise is a potential cue that may explain referee home team bias

I think we are agreeing then that there is a good chance therefore that referees are indeed bias.

I would say with some confidence that over the years Rangers will have been on the receiving end of more favourable decisions than other teams - because the pressure that exists on the ref to give them decisions ( or not give negative decisions against them) is so big.

[CMurdoch]

Porteous' appeal against the red card was turned down but, even with TV pictures available, an almost identical tackle in the same game by Lundstrom saw no action taken by either the referee at the time or the compliance officer afterwards.

The compliance officer had all the angles available and no fans in the stands to subconsciously influence his decision.

I don't know when and why the compliance officer gets involved now.
In the past it tended to be in relation to violent conduct on the pitch which hadn't been seen by the referee rather than tackles.
I would be grateful if you could explain to me when and why the compliance officer becomes involved.

[Smartie]

As an aside, I’m working my way through the “Bad Sport” series on Netflix at the moment, there is an episode on the Juventus match fixing scandal which is very interesting.

Really good series actually, some of the other ones about other episodes of corruption in sport are good too.

[CMurdoch]

I think we are agreeing then that there is a good chance therefore that referees are indeed bias.

I would say with some confidence that over the years Rangers will have been on the receiving end of more favourable decisions than other teams - because the pressure that exists on the ref to give them decisions ( or not give negative decisions against them) is so big.

Steady :wink:
You have made a big jump there in boiling a discussion down to a one liner.

Firstly there is the issue of semantics.
Many folk on here will automatically and falsely equate something like unconscious bias with cheating.

If we accept what you have said above and use the same logic we can say with some confidence that Hibs will have been on the receiving end of more favourable decisions than other teams - because of the pressure that exists on the ref to give them decisions (or not give negative decisions against them) is so big

[CMurdoch]

As an aside, I’m working my way through the “Bad Sport” series on Netflix at the moment, there is an episode on the Juventus match fixing scandal which is very interesting.

Really good series actually, some of the other ones about other episodes of corruption in sport are good too.

Cheers, i'll give the Juventus episode a watch.
Italian football has been dogged by corruption and scandal over the years.

[Kato]

football has been dogged by corruption and scandal over the years.

Ftfy



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[CMurdoch]

Ftfy



Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

:agree:

[1875godsgift]

I think there was far more scope for referee bias and corruption before the modern era so it could have taken place. Most games were played and never seen by anyone other than those who attended.
Now every game is filmed, every incident is covered from every angle and we can all look back at every aspect of a game at our leisure replaying tackles, off-sides and goals over and over, slow motion, frame by frame. Hindsight on such viewings is 20/20 and we can't understand why referees get decisions wrong when we can see perfectly what happened.
VAR will help the poor sods but they will still be criticised and accused of bias ...............and still without a shred of credible evidence.

:hmmm: Sevco 66 games without a red card........

[CMurdoch]

:hmmm: Sevco 66 games without a red card........

That's not evidence, that's a statistic :wink:

[LaMotta]

Steady :wink:
You have made a big jump there in boiling a discussion down to a one liner.

Firstly there is the issue of semantics.
Many folk on here will automatically and falsely equate something like unconscious bias with cheating.

If we accept what you have said above and use the same logic we can say with some confidence that Hibs will have been on the receiving end of more favourable decisions than other teams - because of the pressure that exists on the ref to give them decisions (or not give negative decisions against them) is so big



No - because Hibs dont have anywhere near as much social influence as Rangers do.

[CMurdoch]

No - because Hibs dont have anywhere near as much social influence as Rangers do.

They do at Easter Road.
I sit in the East and when an incident occurs near the stand there is a vast load of social influence going towards the referee

[1875godsgift]

That's not evidence, that's a statistic :wink:

Even more damning then :cb

[LaMotta]

They do at Easter Road.
I sit in the East and when an incident occurs near the stand there is a vast load of social influence going towards the referee

Well yes sometimes, but the point is Rangers get more decisions than anyone else and by and large always have done in Scotland. There's no doubt bias and social influence plays it's part.

[CMurdoch]

Well yes sometimes, but the point is Rangers get more decisions than anyone else and by and large always have done in Scotland. There's no doubt bias and social influence plays it's part.

They get the same number of decisions as Celtic based on the same principals otherwise you are on a whole different agenda

[Kato]

They do at Easter Road.
I sit in the East and when an incident occurs near the stand there is a vast load of social influence going towards the referee

So it might come down to a balance of whether he is influenced more by: some noisy, mumpy Embrans or, the longer term possibilities of "upset" from the Rangers fans many of whom will likely live near him, given the geographic spread of refs in Scotland.

[Rumble de Thump]

The evidence is in every game Sevco plays. Clear for everyone to see. And we also saw last year that the referees were even biased in their favour when there were no crowds in attendance. Only the staunchest of football fans would pretend that referees don't give Sevco a massive helping hand.

[Dublin07]

That's not evidence, that's a statistic :wink:

It is but the evidence is the 3 times match officials clearly witnessed rangers players act in a way that merits a red card but did not take action. There was then justified outcry afterwards and a panel of suitably qualified people decided it was a red card offence and the player was suspended. The video of all 3 incidents show the ref had a clear view. If you choose to believe that is consistent human error then you are either a rangers supporter, a supportive fellow ref or just at it!

[WhileTheChief..]

The evidence is in every game Sevco plays. Clear for everyone to see. And we also saw last year that the referees were even biased in their favour when there were no crowds in attendance. Only the staunchest of football fans would pretend that referees don't give Sevco a massive helping hand.

Why did the ref allow us to win the Scottish Cup?

He could easily have just blown the whistle for a foul in the box in the 92nd minute.

[oneone73]

Why did the ref allow us to win the Scottish Cup?

He could easily have just blown the whistle for a foul in the box in the 92nd minute.

Or at our equaliser.

[CMurdoch]

So it might come down to a balance of whether he is influenced more by: some noisy, mumpy Embrans or, the longer term possibilities of "upset" from the Rangers fans many of whom will likely live near him, given the geographic spread of refs in Scotland.

The referees at the top level will be pretty prosperous folk.
Most certainly used to be professional types and they will make a good wedge from football as well.
Accordingly they will not be living amongst unbalanced numpties so other than when they referee the Old Firm games I don't expect they have any issues.
I also suspect there is a safety plan and security protocols in place to protect them and their families following those matches especially in the event of controversy.

I think the unconscious bias comes from thousands of people shouting at the referee.
When the Old Firm play at home the away teams supporters make up less than 2% of the crowd so are barely heard.
To get the same advantage over them at Easter Road we need to restrict them to 400 tickets.
However, that won't happen because we don't have enough supporters willing to consistantly pay to attend our home games against the Old Firm teams therefore the owners sell the Dunbar end tickets to their supporters. It's a catch 22 situation where the owners have to make a pragmatic decision to protect our finances rather than gain a small advantage which may or may not pay off.

[JimBHibees]

The referees at the top level will be pretty prosperous folk.
Most certainly used to be professional types and they will make a good wedge from football as well.
Accordingly they will not be living amongst unbalanced numpties so other than when they referee the Old Firm games I don't expect they have any issues.
I also suspect there is a safety plan and security protocols in place to protect referees following those matches especially in the event of controversy.

I think the unconscious bias comes from thousands of people shouting at the referee.
When the Old Firm play at home the away teams supporters make up less than 2% of the crowd so are barely heard.
To get the same advantage over them at Easter Road we need to restrict them to 400 tickets.
However, that won't happen because we don't have enough supporters willing to consistantly pay to attend our home games against the Old Firm teams therefore the owners sell the Dunbar end tickets to their supporters. It's a catch 22 situation where the owners have to make a pragmatic decision to protect our finances rather than gain a small advantage which may or may not pay off.

Really interesting article here indicating unrest within refereeing community outlining all the top refs come from refereeing associations which border Glasgow. In the initial 100 years of the Scottish cup finals only one referee from Edinburgh had been in charge. Appreciate this is a few years back however I think most people would be concerned around this.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/16114571.investigation-referees-blow-whistle-unrest/

[Smartie]

The referees at the top level will be pretty prosperous folk.
Most certainly used to be professional types and they will make a good wedge from football as well.
Accordingly they will not be living amongst unbalanced numpties so other than when they referee the Old Firm games I don't expect they have any issues.
I also suspect there is a safety plan and security protocols in place to protect them and their families following those matches especially in the event of controversy.

I think the unconscious bias comes from thousands of people shouting at the referee.
When the Old Firm play at home the away teams supporters make up less than 2% of the crowd so are barely heard.
To get the same advantage over them at Easter Road we need to restrict them to 400 tickets.
However, that won't happen because we don't have enough supporters willing to consistantly pay to attend our home games against the Old Firm teams therefore the owners sell the Dunbar end tickets to their supporters. It's a catch 22 situation where the owners have to make a pragmatic decision to protect our finances rather than gain a small advantage which may or may not pay off.

I agree with you, however - is it that much better if a referee shows unconscious bias rather than conscious bias? The end result is the same - bias and inconsistent decision making - and that's not good for the game. I'd also expect and hope that VAR would make a drastic difference.


A mate of mine passed away a couple of years back, we had season tickets together for years and I went along to scatter some of his ashes at Easter Road with his mum and dad down in the South East corner. His dad used to be a linesman back in the day and had occasionally run the line at Easter Road. This was the first time he'd been back at Easter Road in decades and obviously it had changed a bit. What was obviously a very sad occasion was also very funny when he created some of his moves, running up and down the touchline down at the bottom of the slope, telling us a few tales about the constructive input he'd receive from the punters behind him, eager to help him with his decision making.


Anyway - he'd most certainly back up your assertion that running that line, down the bottom of the slope in front of the old East was not the easiest place for a linesman to ply their trade.

[WhileTheChief..]

Really interesting article here indicating unrest within refereeing community outlining all the top refs come from refereeing associations which border Glasgow. In the initial 100 years of the Scottish cup finals only one referee from Edinburgh had been in charge. Appreciate this is a few years back however I think most people would be concerned around this.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/16114571.investigation-referees-blow-whistle-unrest/

Does it matter where they live?

They could have been born in Edinburgh and lived here for 20 years or so before moving to Glasgow!

Are we now suggesting that a ref supports his local team and is biased towards them because of that? But only the ones that live in or near Glasgow?

The general feeling on here recently is that all refs are biased towards Rangers.

I keep asking it, but why does nobody at the club think like this? Or if they do, why haven't we EVER heard from them about it? You could go back the 100 years and still not find a club chairman who has come out with this.

Do we really think that guys like RP or STF were too thick / blind not to see what you guys apparently see every week for over 20 years??!! You think RG would have bought a club in a league that was rigged?

Same with every single sponsor of every club over decades. There's way too many stakeholders involved in Scottish Football for this to be happening and not be called out.

These accusations don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny at all. It's collective bumping of gums.

[CMurdoch]

I didn't see the crowd influencing a referees decisions as unconscious bias but I can now see that is exactly what it is.
Strangely the following section from the report states academically what i said in some of my posts about the influence of the home support on the referee

Sutter and Kocher (2004) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29) found that referees are more likely to award a penalty to the home team, suggesting that they may be subconsciously influenced by home crowd noise. This is consistent with other findings demonstrating that referees are biased toward the home team when awarding penalties (Nevill et al., 1996 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B24); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)), distributing extra time (Sutter and Kocher, 2004 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B29); Garicano et al., 2005 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B10); Dohmen, 2008 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B8)) and administering disciplinary sanctions (Dawson and Dobson, 2007 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B5); Buraimo et al., 2010 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B3), 2012 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B4); Reilly and Witt, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B27)). The magnitude of referee bias also appears to be more prominent with increased crowd density (Goumas, 2014 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B11)), and referees with higher anxiety levels are more prone to the influence of social forces (e.g., crowd noise) compared with less anxious referees (Sors et al., 2019 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B28)). Thus, despite the intention and perception of impartiality (Johansen and Haugen, 2013 (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B15)), the cumulative evidence suggests that referees' decisions are influenced by social forces.
Aiming to understand referees' decisions, and how they may be biased, Plessner et al. (2009) (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full#B26) argued that football referees' decision-making is primarily automatic rather than deliberate, and that it is based on multiple rather than single cues. In addition to direct situational cues, crowd noise is a potential cue that may explain referee home team bias

Smartie, re your concern re unconscious bias, the above is my post from last night quoting part of an academic report in relation to how it affects referees. Another poster Motta found the report and this is an excerpt from it. The study related to referees in Norwegian football.
Without replacing humans with robots our humanity will always be an issue in how we perform our duties especially under pressure but I suspect robots would make horrendous referees and folk on here would want to know which team they supported and where they were stored through the week. Within weeks they would want them smashed up.

[CMurdoch]

I agree with you, however - is it that much better if a referee shows unconscious bias rather than conscious bias? The end result is the same - bias and inconsistent decision making - and that's not good for the game. I'd also expect and hope that VAR would make a drastic difference.


A mate of mine passed away a couple of years back, we had season tickets together for years and I went along to scatter some of his ashes at Easter Road with his mum and dad down in the South East corner. His dad used to be a linesman back in the day and had occasionally run the line at Easter Road. This was the first time he'd been back at Easter Road in decades and obviously it had changed a bit. What was obviously a very sad occasion was also very funny when he created some of his moves, running up and down the touchline down at the bottom of the slope, telling us a few tales about the constructive input he'd receive from the punters behind him, eager to help him with his decision making.


Anyway - he'd most certainly back up your assertion that running that line, down the bottom of the slope in front of the old East was not the easiest place for a linesman to ply their trade.

See my post above this one Smartie. It's an answer to your post re unconscious bias.

Sad but good story about your friends dad.
It must be truly horrendous being a linesman.
The referee can bugger off into the middle of the pitch to escape abuse but the best the linesman can do is move up the line a bit and get the same abuse from different folk.

[ancient hibee]

I think when 40000 shout penalty the ref has probably blown his whistle automatically.:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Does it matter where they live?

They could have been born in Edinburgh and lived here for 20 years or so before moving to Glasgow!

Are we now suggesting that a ref supports his local team and is biased towards them because of that? But only the ones that live in or near Glasgow?

The general feeling on here recently is that all refs are biased towards Rangers.

I keep asking it, but why does nobody at the club think like this? Or if they do, why haven't we EVER heard from them about it? You could go back the 100 years and still not find a club chairman who has come out with this.

Do we really think that guys like RP or STF were too thick / blind not to see what you guys apparently see every week for over 20 years??!! You think RG would have bought a club in a league that was rigged?

Same with every single sponsor of every club over decades. There's way too many stakeholders involved in Scottish Football for this to be happening and not be called out.

These accusations don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny at all. It's collective bumping of gums.

Did you read the article it is referrees complaining about refs from certain areas being locked out. Do you genuinely think there was only one Edinburgh ref good enough to ref a final in a 100 years. The game is rigged to suit two teams. There have always been suspicions about certain refs and a fear of giving a decision against certain teams. Rangers went a full season not giving away a penalty or having a man sent off which seems highly improbable. No one said all refs but a fair few are scared to give a big decision against them. I think people in the other clubs probably do think there is favouritism however it is probably more difficult to be so biased as in yesteryear due to cameras and complaining about it gets you nowhere. The succulent lamb press were highlighted brilliantly by Alex Thomson c4 journo which kind of sums up the leverage they have in this country and that it took someone not from here to point it out.

[superfurryhibby]

Did you read the article it is referrees complaining about refs from certain areas being locked out. Do you genuinely think there was only one Edinburgh ref good enough to ref a final in a 100 years. The game is rigged to suit two teams. There have always been suspicions about certain refs and a fear of giving a decision against certain teams. Rangers went a full season not giving away a penalty or having a man sent off which seems highly improbable. No one said all refs but a fair few are scared to give a big decision against them. I think people in the other clubs probably do think there is favouritism however it is probably more difficult to be so biased as in yesteryear due to cameras and complaining about it gets you nowhere. The succulent lamb press were highlighted brilliantly by Alex Thomson c4 journo which kind of sums up the leverage they have in this country and that it took someone not from here to point it out.

Totally agree with all points. The refereeing bias is so weighted towards officials from the Weege and nearby areas. It's part of the issue.

[A Hi-Bee]

Totally agree with all points. The refereeing bias is so weighted towards officials from the Weege and nearby areas. It's part of the issue.

Always has been and always will be, don't know how any right minded Hibs man can think otherwise although each to their own opinion of course????
:agree::agree::agree:

[LaMotta]

The referees at the top level will be pretty prosperous folk.
Most certainly used to be professional types and they will make a good wedge from football as well.
Accordingly they will not be living amongst unbalanced numpties so other than when they referee the Old Firm games I don't expect they have any issues.
I also suspect there is a safety plan and security protocols in place to protect them and their families following those matches especially in the event of controversy.

I think the unconscious bias comes from thousands of people shouting at the referee.
When the Old Firm play at home the away teams supporters make up less than 2% of the crowd so are barely heard.
To get the same advantage over them at Easter Road we need to restrict them to 400 tickets.
However, that won't happen because we don't have enough supporters willing to consistantly pay to attend our home games against the Old Firm teams therefore the owners sell the Dunbar end tickets to their supporters. It's a catch 22 situation where the owners have to make a pragmatic decision to protect our finances rather than gain a small advantage which may or may not pay off.

Some of the most bigoted and unbalanced numpty Huns are of a prosperous nature, eg top ranking Police, lawyers, Tory politicians so not sure about that one.

Most unconscious bias comes from the thousands shouting at the ref I would agree, but also I think you also need to consider ( as part of the social influence point) the large amount pf press attention that decisions against Rangers ( or Celtic) can get. Certainly more scrutiny on decisions against those two than other clubs. I think that might play a part at times.

[ancient hibee]

Some of the most bigoted and unbalanced numpty Huns are of a prosperous nature, eg top ranking Police, lawyers, Tory politicians so not sure about that one.

Most unconscious bias comes from the thousands shouting at the ref I would agree, but also I think you also need to consider ( as part of the social influence point) the large amount pf press attention that decisions against Rangers ( or Celtic) can get. Certainly more scrutiny on decisions against those two than other clubs. I think that might play a part at times.

Think you'll find that the politicians most closely involved with Glasgow football are labour high heid ones at Parkhead.Be interested to know the names of the top ranking police and lawyers.

[LaMotta]

Think you'll find that the politicians most closely involved with Glasgow football are labour high heid ones at Parkhead. Be interested to know the names of the top ranking police and lawyers.

Out of interest who? Not really relevant though, as I was talking about the misconception that prosperous Huns might not be numpties. Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins are great examples of that.

Donald Findlay an obvious high profile lawyer. My friend has worked in central belt legal firms for years and knows of many prosperous Hun lawyers.

And you don't have to know the name of any of the Glasgow police to know that the force is full of sticky buns. Scotland's first black police officer ( Robin Iffla, a well respected man who now runs a diversity training company) told us at a work event it was well known over the years that being a Rangers fan helped your way up the ranks in the Glasgow polis.

[ancient hibee]

Out of interest who? Not really relevant though, as I was talking about the misconception that prosperous Huns might not be numpties. Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins are great examples of that.

Donald Findlay an obvious high profile lawyer. My friend has worked in central belt legal firms for years and knows of many prosperous Hun lawyers.

And you don't have to know the name of any of the Glasgow police to know that the force is full of sticky buns. Scotland's first black police officer ( Robin Iffla, a well respected man who now runs a diversity training company) told us at a work event it was well known over the years that being a Rangers fan helped your way up the ranks in the Glasgow polis.

John Reid and Brian Wilson both Directors of Celtic in recent times.Reid was Chairman for a number of years.

[LaMotta]

John Reid and Brian Wilson both Directors of Celtic in recent times.Reid was Chairman for a number of years.


Fair enough, although they've not been politicians since 2010 and 2005 respectively which is why I was a bit confused about your comment :greengrin

[CMurdoch]

Some of the most bigoted and unbalanced numpty Huns are of a prosperous nature, eg top ranking Police, lawyers, Tory politicians so not sure about that one.

Most unconscious bias comes from the thousands shouting at the ref I would agree, but also I think you also need to consider ( as part of the social influence point) the large amount pf press attention that decisions against Rangers ( or Celtic) can get. Certainly more scrutiny on decisions against those two than other clubs. I think that might play a part at times.

I wasn't talking about those folk I was talking about violent unbalanced numpties who might be inclined to attack a referee, his home or family if they got it into their thick heads that the referee was in some way responsible for bad decisions against their team generally following games between the Old Firm.

[LaMotta]

I wasn't talking about those folk I was talking about violent unbalanced numpties who might be inclined to attack a referee, his home or family if they got it into their thick heads that the referee was in some way responsible for bad decisions against their team generally following games between the Old Firm.

Fair enough mate:aok:

[Dublin07]

Games since a red card
Hearts 2
Motherwell 2
Livi 1
Hibs 2
Aberdeen 7
St Johnstone 1
St mirren 10
Dundee Utd 12
Dundee 14
Celtic 18
Ross county 37
Rangers 67

Updated list

[CMurdoch]

Games since a red card
Hearts 2
Motherwell 2
Livi 1
Hibs 2
Aberdeen 7
St Johnstone 1
St mirren 10
Dundee Utd 12
Dundee 13
Celtic 17
Ross county 36
Rangers 66

Updated list

Time to debunc your spin.

The Rangers had:
6 red cards in domestic games in season 2017/18
9 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
0 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

Looking at the above stats guess which was Gerrards 1st season in management?
A season when he listened to rubbish chat from fans and the media and overwound his players.


Now lets look at Hibs red card stats for domestic games over the same time frame for comparison
1 red card for domestic games in season 2017/18
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
4 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
2 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

These stats are less titillating than your tabloid stat but provide a truer and more meaningful picture in relation to red cards typically awarded against The Rangers and Hibs.

The Result:
The Rangers 18 red cards in the last 4 seasons
Hibernian FC 10 red cards in the last 4 seasons

In essence The Rangers received almost twice as many red cards as the Hibees over the last 4 seasons
Hibs have the referees in their pocket I tells ya.

[PatHead]

Time to debunc your spin.

The Rangers had:
6 red cards in domestic games in season 2017/18
9 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
0 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

Looking at the above stats guess which was Gerrards 1st season in management?
A season when he listened to rubbish chat from fans and the media and overwound his players.


Now lets look at Hibs red card stats for domestic games over the same time frame for comparison
1 red card for domestic games in season 2017/18
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
4 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
2 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

These stats are less titillating than your tabloid stat but provide a truer and more meaningful picture in relation to red cards typically awarded against The Rangers and Hibs.

The Result:
The Rangers 18 red cards in the last 4 seasons
Hibernian FC 10 red cards in the last 4 seasons

In essence The Rangers received almost twice as many red cards as the Hibees over the last 4 seasons
Hibs have the referees in their pocket I tells ya.

Doesn't tell the full story as Sevco have received retrospective red cards in that period. Also a ridiculous number of red cards not given, no penalties against them for God knows how long.
Your defending of them is totally over the top. Most fans complaint centres round how much they get away with not about how much they are actually caught.Also the way certain referees record while managing a match.
These statistics mean nothing.

[CMurdoch]

Doesn't tell the full story as Sevco have received retrospective red cards in that period. Also a ridiculous number of red cards not given, no penalties against them for God knows how long.
Your defending of them is totally over the top. Most fans complaint centres round how much they get away with not about how much they are actually caught.Also the way certain referees record while managing a match.
These statistics mean nothing.

God knows there are plenty of sticks to beat Rangers with but some folk just accept anything they are told and start kicking out without bothering to find out if it is true.
The thread is about red cards and the OP provided stats implying that Rangers don't get red cards.
I had a quick look tonight and found that Rangers have had 18 red cards in the last 4 seasons and Hibs 10 which debuncs the narrative created by the OP.
2017/18 was our first year back in the top league hence 4 years.
Have you any facts, stats or evidence to support your claims or do you just spuriously rant?

[Libby Hibby]

It would be interesting to know how many retrospective red cards have been given / rescinded.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Time to debunc your spin.

The Rangers had:
6 red cards in domestic games in season 2017/18
9 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
0 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

Looking at the above stats guess which was Gerrards 1st season in management?
A season when he listened to rubbish chat from fans and the media and overwound his players.


Now lets look at Hibs red card stats for domestic games over the same time frame for comparison
1 red card for domestic games in season 2017/18
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
4 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
2 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

These stats are less titillating than your tabloid stat but provide a truer and more meaningful picture in relation to red cards typically awarded against The Rangers and Hibs.

The Result:
The Rangers 18 red cards in the last 4 seasons
Hibernian FC 10 red cards in the last 4 seasons

In essence The Rangers received almost twice as many red cards as the Hibees over the last 4 seasons
Hibs have the referees in their pocket I tells ya.

:hilarious Stats are barry.

[PatHead]

What is not true about the OPs post?

When did Sevco last have a player sent off in a Scottish League match?

What is spurious about my post?

[CMurdoch]

What is not true about the OPs post?

When did Sevco last have a player sent off in a Scottish League match?

What is spurious about my post?

The OP's post is true but the narrative it's trying to sell isn't.

What makes your post a spurious rant is that it kicks out at random things and you don't even bother checking if what you are saying is true.
You said in your post "no penalties against them for God knows how long"
It's not true, they have conceded 2 penalties this season and Hibs have conceded none.


P.S. This season Rangers have been awarded 3 penalties and Hibs 4 :wink:.

[Dublin07]

Time to debunc your spin.

The Rangers had:
6 red cards in domestic games in season 2017/18
9 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
0 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

Looking at the above stats guess which was Gerrards 1st season in management?
A season when he listened to rubbish chat from fans and the media and overwound his players.


Now lets look at Hibs red card stats for domestic games over the same time frame for comparison
1 red card for domestic games in season 2017/18
3 red cards in domestic games in season 2018/19
4 red cards in domestic games in season 2019/20
2 red cards in domestic games in season 2020/21

These stats are less titillating than your tabloid stat but provide a truer and more meaningful picture in relation to red cards typically awarded against The Rangers and Hibs.

The Result:
The Rangers 18 red cards in the last 4 seasons
Hibernian FC 10 red cards in the last 4 seasons

In essence The Rangers received almost twice as many red cards as the Hibees over the last 4 seasons
Hibs have the referees in their pocket I tells ya.

There is no spin. Only person providing any is yourself. I am stating facts regarding the number of games since teams had a red card which appears to have upset you greatly.
I have no idea what tabloid stat means as I have not read a tabloid in over 25 years, do they have stats on red cards?
I am a hibs fan and like 99.99% of hibs fans believe rangers get favours from referees and their bosses. I will never apologise for putting the boot in to them.

[majorhibs]

There is no spin. Only person providing any is yourself. I am stating facts regarding the number of games since teams had a red card which appears to have upset you greatly.
I have no idea what tabloid stat means as I have not read a tabloid in over 25 years, do they have stats on red cards?
I am a hibs fan and like 99.99% of hibs fans believe rangers get favours from referees and their bosses. I will never apologise for putting the boot in to them.

This murdoch’s playin an absolute blinder for Gerrarrd here, almost “traynor-esque” if ye ask me!

[JimBHibees]

What is not true about the OPs post?

When did Sevco last have a player sent off in a Scottish League match?

What is spurious about my post?

Has anyone been able to answer this question. Facts are a season they were going for the league and ended the season unbeaten they had no red cards though two or three first half blatant red cards were ignored and gave away one penalty in the very last minutes of the last game of the season. All of that has no whiff at all about it. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

The OP's post is true but the narrative it's trying to sell isn't.

What makes your post a spurious rant is that it kicks out at random things and you don't even bother checking if what you are saying is true.
You said in your post "no penalties against them for God knows how long"
It's not true, they have conceded 2 penalties this season and Hibs have conceded none.


P.S. This season Rangers have been awarded 3 penalties and Hibs 4 :wink:.

In the whole of last season they had no red cards at all and no team were awarded a penalty against them bar St Johnstone in injury time of the very last game. Nothing to see here.