Winning At Home

[Key West]

Hibs need to start games with some intent and perhaps that will get both the team and the crowd going, too many times we are relying on Boyle to be brave and create the spark, our lone striker is often isolated and there's no urgency from the midfield to get in the box apart from Magennis.

[1620]

Hibs need to start games with some intent and perhaps that will get both the team and the crowd going, too many times we are relying on Boyle to be brave and create the spark, our lone striker is often isolated and there's no urgency from the midfield to get in the box apart from Magennis.

I agree with the sentiment of needing to start games with more intent.
I do think however that with the loss of McGinn and Porteous for Saturday’s match, leaving only one experienced defender from the normal back four ( young Josh still isn’t doing it for me ) that McGregor and Stevenson should have played. I don’t think it was the right game to give Wood his debut having not had previous minutes in other games. It was unfair on him because he had no support from Cadden and Hanlon was caught trying to play his own game whilst talking Wood through the game and covering for the marauding Doig.
Having selected the back four that were there I also can’t believe a place was not found for Gogic as a defensive mid.
This is not an anti JR comment in any way because I think he is the right man for the job and due to the lack of depth in the squad, injuries etc he has difficult decisions to make re team selection at the moment, all I am saying is I was surprised by the team selection for last Saturday’s match.

[90274]

Need to be winning at home against teams we are expecting to finish above.

In his time so far at Hibs it's 14 league wins out of 33 at home for Jack Ross. That needs to be better.

[wookie70]

I agree with the sentiment of needing to start games with more intent.
I do think however that with the loss of McGinn and Porteous for Saturday’s match, leaving only one experienced defender from the normal back four ( young Josh still isn’t doing it for me ) that McGregor and Stevenson should have played. I don’t think it was the right game to give Wood his debut having not had previous minutes in other games. It was unfair on him because he had no support from Cadden and Hanlon was caught trying to play his own game whilst talking Wood through the game and covering for the marauding Doig.
Having selected the back four that were there I also can’t believe a place was not found for Gogic as a defensive mid.
This is not an anti JR comment in any way because I think he is the right man for the job and due to the lack of depth in the squad, injuries etc he has difficult decisions to make re team selection at the moment, all I am saying is I was surprised by the team selection for last Saturday’s match.

That mirrors my thoughts. Allan and Murphy were my first worry then I thought both fullbacks bomb on and we haven't got a real spoiler in front of the two centre Halves, one of who is a young debutant new to Scottish football. On paper it had little chance of success imo but sometimes you get lucky, not many times though. I hope Stevenson and McGregor are both recalled and he chooses one or the other of Allan and Murphy. If we are going 4 at the back then stick Gogic in instead of Allan and allow Newell to push on. Better still just hope we get some players back as Ross will be struggling to pick a good side from the squad we had last week. He went full on kamikaze attack in terms of personnel and forgot how we would get the ball to all the danger men. I think he will rethink that approach if no-one returns from injury.

[007]

Need to be winning at home against teams we are expecting to finish above.

In his time so far at Hibs it's 14 league wins out of 33 at home for Jack Ross. That needs to be better.

Don't buy into win percentages/no. of wins. Only gives part of the story. Somewhere between 0 and 19 of those were draws so that's up to 19 points ignored in that stat. Average points per game is a better indicator imo but it seems to get quoted by people a lot less.

Does the 14 out of 33 relate purely to matches against teams you think we should finish above?

[Perfect Hatrick]

Don't buy into win percentages/no. of wins. Only gives part of the story. Somewhere between 0 and 19 of those were draws so that's up to 19 points ignored in that stat. Average points per game is a better indicator imo but it seems to get quoted by people a lot less.

Does the 14 out of 33 relate purely to matches against teams you think we should finish above?

Without looking I’d guess 33 home league games is the full amount. 19 last season, 4 or 5 this season and the rest in the shortened season before.

14 wins gives us a 42% win percentage at home. That’s not great. Thankfully our good away record has negated that somewhat. If you’re aiming for third place I reckon you should be shooting for somewhere around 60% (or more of course) of home games being won. That would mean winning between 11 and 12 of the 19. With around 9 games against bottom 6 teams at home each season that should be more than achievable.

[hibby rae]

Need to be winning at home against teams we are expecting to finish above.

In his time so far at Hibs it's 14 league wins out of 33 at home for Jack Ross. That needs to be better.


Surely all home and away percentages come with the massive caveat of playing behind closed doors for a majority of the games too.

So there is a question over the concept of home advantage.

[lord bunberry]

Surely all home and away percentages come with the massive caveat of playing behind closed doors for a majority of the games too.

So there is a question over the concept of home advantage.
It does, but it won’t be taken into account by the people who don’t like the manager.

[CockneyRebel]

Surely all home and away percentages come with the massive caveat of playing behind closed doors for a majority of the games too.

So there is a question over the concept of home advantage.


Good shout.

[Key West]

The thread is not intended as a dig at the manager but i still believe in home advantage and it looks to me like the away teams actually enjoy visiting Easter Road, they appear to have plenty of time and space in the first period of the game in which to develop their game plan and they also seem to be more energetic in closing us down, whilst we are laboured, slow and predictable, devoid of tempo and any sense of urgency.

[superfurryhibby]

Without looking I’d guess 33 home league games is the full amount. 19 last season, 4 or 5 this season and the rest in the shortened season before.

14 wins gives us a 42% win percentage at home. That’s not great. Thankfully our good away record has negated that somewhat. If you’re aiming for third place I reckon you should be shooting for somewhere around 60% (or more of course) of home games being won. That would mean winning between 11 and 12 of the 19. With around 9 games against bottom 6 teams at home each season that should be more than achievable.


Our home form, or rather number of winning games, is a bit unusual granted, but as a few have said, maybe average point per game gives a truer picture than just wins.

Either way, it's worth discussing.

People have commented on the lack of fans last season as a way of negating home advantage, but I wonder if the stats back that up (not just at Hibs)?
I also wonder how you change traditional approaches to playing home and away, tactically. . For years we saw dour teams arrive at Easter Road, time waste from the start, spoil the play and try and grab a goal (Aberdeen spring to mind, as do St Johnstone). Maybe last season teams just played the game. In fact what exactly creates home advantage?

[Peevemor]

I'm no statistical or analytic genius but we should be winning more points at home. We don't because we're not very good at breaking teams down when they sit in against us.

I don't know what the answer is though.

[EVENTUALLY]

Hibs need to start games with some intent and perhaps that will get both the team and the crowd going, too many times we are relying on Boyle to be brave and create the spark, our lone striker is often isolated and there's no urgency from the midfield to get in the box apart from Magennis.

Think Hibs should play to the strengths of the defence.
3 at the back. McGinn Porteous and Hanlon with McGregor and Wood as backup utilising the energy and pace of Cadden and Doig as wing backs.
Shape the rest of the team from that position and move the ball quickly down the wings from kick off would in my view get the crowd up for it at Easter Road.

[90274]

Home league games under Jack Ross

14 wins from 33 games - 42.4%
52 points from 99 available - 52.5%

A bit concerning tbh.

That's 30 pts from 57 available in a typical 19 game home season. Is that good enough for us?

[J-C]

We don't play with enough intensity, slow and pedestrian with an over reliance on Boyle. Teams aren't scared to come to ER because they know how we play and once you've shut Boyle out of the game the crowd quietens and get on the players backs.

We have shown in glimpses how good we can be but in general we're predictable, some players look like they're going through the motions, no competition for places are making some stagnant.

I thought we were boring a lot of the games last season and the big test was when the crowds came back, looks like they're not coming back in the hoards that they thought would, Ron will have noticed the crowds and the performances.

[superfurryhibby]

Home league games under Jack Ross

14 wins from 33 games - 42.4%
52 points from 99 available - 52.5%

A bit concerning tbh.

That's 30 pts from 57 available in a typical 19 game home season. Is that good enough for us?

If equalled by away form that is a 60 point season (fortunately our away form helped us to 67 points). It's not good enough in terms of where Ron Gordon sees the club, but it's probably more than we managed for most of the past 30 years?

[ancient hibee]

Think Hibs should play to the strengths of the defence.
3 at the back. McGinn Porteous and Hanlon with McGregor and Wood as backup utilising the energy and pace of Cadden and Doig as wing backs.
Shape the rest of the team from that position and move the ball quickly down the wings from kick off would in my view get the crowd up for it at Easter Road.#
#
I'm afraid Cadden has yet to convince me that he has got either energy or pace. I would describe him as pedestrian.

[Perfect Hatrick]

If equalled by away form that is a 60 point season (fortunately our away form helped us to 67 points). It's not good enough in terms of where Ron Gordon sees the club, but it's probably more than we managed for most of the past 30 years?

I’m not going to bother looking back but I’d imagine it is probably more. Possibly not by a lot though as our away record is usually nothing like it is now and is the main reason we finished third.

My concern with that is that outstanding away records always feel unsustainable. If the away record turns and the home record stays as it is then we’ll be tumbling down the league. (Stating the obvious there I suppose!)

[matty_f]

Jack Ross is 4th in all time Hibs managers for his home wins (minimum 10 games played).

He’s behind Jock Stein, Alan Stubbs (who was in the Championships for the entirety of his time), and John Halligan.

He’s 4th best for all time record of home defeats, behind Lennon(season in the Championship), Stein, and Stubbs.

Remarkably, he’s doing relatively well.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Jack Ross is 4th in all time Hibs managers for his home wins (minimum 10 games played).

He’s behind Jock Stein, Alan Stubbs (who was in the Championships for the entirety of his time), and John Halligan.

He’s 4th best for all time record of home defeats, behind Lennon(season in the Championship), Stein, and Stubbs.

Remarkably, he’s doing relatively well.

That’s interesting.

Change the subject to something else - see yes big games we didn’t win or style of play (but not how many goals we score) or something.

[superfurryhibby]

I’m not going to bother looking back but I’d imagine it is probably more. Possibly not by a lot though as our away record is usually nothing like it is now and is the main reason we finished third.

My concern with that is that outstanding away records always feel unsustainable. If the away record turns and the home record stays as it is then we’ll be tumbling down the league. (Stating the obvious there I suppose!)

I’ve had a look and Hibs have bettered 60 points three times in the past 30 years. Based on last season’s points total, our home form has been, by our past standard, pretty decent. The 33 points earned away last season definitely is unusual, but still that home form you refer to isn’t as bad as portrayed.

Lots of if’s and buts. Hopefully we’re having a blip and will emerge from it. The team has had a lot of injuries this season, that has been a factor too. I think we have enough quality to get back on tracks, starting with a win at the weekend.

[007]

Without looking I’d guess 33 home league games is the full amount. 19 last season, 4 or 5 this season and the rest in the shortened season before.

14 wins gives us a 42% win percentage at home. That’s not great. Thankfully our good away record has negated that somewhat. If you’re aiming for third place I reckon you should be shooting for somewhere around 60% (or more of course) of home games being won. That would mean winning between 11 and 12 of the 19. With around 9 games against bottom 6 teams at home each season that should be more than achievable.

If it is then it's a bit misleading of 90274 to state we need to be winning at home against teams we're expected to finish above and then put a stat which includes the matches against clubs we're not expected to finish above, which if it is done based on the most common method (budget) would be Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

It seems to me to be an attempt to have a go a JR for not being able to win the small games but the stats don't back it up so they've been manipulated I might be wrong and that's not the intention (if so then apologies to 90274) but that's how it comes across to me). If we're talking about win percentages then looking at all matches and comparing to previous Hibs managers. JR is up there with the best and if comparing against modern day managers Stubbs' were all in the Championship and Lennon had a season in the Championship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._managers

[90274]

If it is then it's a bit misleading of 90274 to state we need to be winning at home against teams we're expected to finish above and then put a stat which includes the matches against clubs we're not expected to finish above, which if it is done based on the most common method (budget) would be Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

It seems to me to be an attempt to have a go a JR for not being able to win the small games but the stats don't back it up so they've been manipulated I might be wrong and that's the intention (if so then apologies to 90274) but that's how it comes across to me). If we're talking about win percentages then looking at all matches and comparing to previous Hibs managers. JR is up there with the best and if comparing against modern day managers Stubbs' were all in the Championship and Lennon had a season in the Championship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hibernian_F.C._managers

We should be finishing ahead of Dundee United is the point. It was a reference to Saturday and so many other home games where we have dropped points that we really shouldn't.

I think the home record needs discussed. Is 14 home wins out of 33 good enough for a club like ours? Or taking 52.5% of available points at home?

[Allant1981]

We should be finishing ahead of Dundee United is the point. It was a reference to Saturday and so many other home games where we have dropped points that we really shouldn't.

I think the home record needs discussed. Is 14 home wins out of 33 good enough for a club like ours? Or taking 52.5% of available points at home?

Did we not only lose something like 4 or 5 games at home last season? Thats not actually that bad

[Cod Boy]

To many players know they will get a game no matter what performance they put in due to lack of depth to on the bench.

[CropleyWasGod]

Jack Ross is 4th in all time Hibs managers for his home wins (minimum 10 games played).

He’s behind Jock Stein, Alan Stubbs (who was in the Championships for the entirety of his time), and John Halligan.

He’s 4th best for all time record of home defeats, behind Lennon(season in the Championship), Stein, and Stubbs.

Remarkably, he’s doing relatively well.


We should be finishing ahead of Dundee United is the point. It was a reference to Saturday and so many other home games where we have dropped points that we really shouldn't.

I think the home record needs discussed. Is 14 home wins out of 33 good enough for a club like ours? Or taking 52.5% of available points at home?

I'll haud the jackets :greengrin

[superfurryhibby]

We should be finishing ahead of Dundee United is the point. It was a reference to Saturday and so many other home games where we have dropped points that we really shouldn't.

I think the home record needs discussed. Is 14 home wins out of 33 good enough for a club like ours? Or taking 52.5% of available points at home?

Dropping points is always pretty lamentable, but there's another 27 or so games to go before we know whether we will finish ahead of Dundee Utd. As has been pointed out, 30 points at home is pretty decent when you consider our historical points total. The frustration is that we know it could have been better. I suspect Ron Gordon will have noticed that and agree.

[matty_f]

We should be finishing ahead of Dundee United is the point. It was a reference to Saturday and so many other home games where we have dropped points that we really shouldn't.

I think the home record needs discussed. Is 14 home wins out of 33 good enough for a club like ours? Or taking 52.5% of available points at home?

4th best home record of all time for Hibs managers. Let’s discuss it - it’s excellent.

[Danderhall Hibs]

What is an acceptable points return? And how does that compare to previous seasons (just to make it a SMART goal).

[B.H.F.C]

4th best home record of all time for Hibs managers. Let’s discuss it - it’s excellent.

You really think 14 wins from 33 is excellent?

Chuck in some absolute horror shows as well.

Most can agree away form has been excellent.

I know you’re going to come back and talk about how it compares historically so I’m not really sure why I’m asking. But if folk really thought we were excellent at home I’m sure more would be making more of an effort to attend.

[bingo70]

Jack Ross is 4th in all time Hibs managers for his home wins (minimum 10 games played).

He’s behind Jock Stein, Alan Stubbs (who was in the Championships for the entirety of his time), and John Halligan.

He’s 4th best for all time record of home defeats, behind Lennon(season in the Championship), Stein, and Stubbs.

Remarkably, he’s doing relatively well.

Are you sure that’s accurate Matty?

Alex Miller was here for 10 years, qualified for Europe and won a cup so must have had spells doing well at home, Tony Mowbreys Hibs team seem to win at home every week but couldn’t buy an away win and Alex Mcleish hibs team skooshed the first division then had a good season in the premier league.

Apologies if I’ve picked your stat up wrong but doesn’t seem right to me?

Edit:- sorry, guessing that was win % you were talking about?

[90274]

You really think 14 wins from 33 is excellent?

Chuck in some absolute horror shows as well.

Most can agree away form has been excellent.

I know you’re going to come back and talk about how it compares historically so I’m not really sure why I’m asking. But if folk really thought we were excellent at home I’m sure more would be making more of an effort to attend.

I think we'd currently be clear at the top just now if our home record was excellent. Had we managed to win on Saturday we'd have been 2 points off top.

I guess another point is that, as a club, we have grown and we now have an owner with cash who will demand better than history suggests.

A comment that is often made is that Jack Ross is under more scrutiny than previous managers, well yes, because of the squad we have, investment that's been made and general resources along with the infrastructure the club now has.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think we'd currently be clear at the top just now if our home record was excellent. Had we managed to win on Saturday we'd have been 2 points off top.

I guess another point is that, as a club, we have grown and we now have an owner with cash who will demand better than history suggests.

A comment that is often made is that Jack Ross is under more scrutiny than previous managers, well yes, because of the squad we have, investment that's been made and general resources along with the infrastructure the club now has.

There’s threads and posts on here about how the squad is threadbare and why the dof left because of his failings in not getting in the players needed. Is the squad good again today? It wasn’t on Saturday.

[90274]

There’s threads and posts on here about how the squad is threadbare and why the dof left because of his failings in not getting in the players needed. Is the squad good again today? It wasn’t on Saturday.

So if our home form continues to be a 52.5% point return rate from available points this season, who's fault will it be Jack Ross or Graeme Mathie?

[B.H.F.C]

There’s threads and posts on here about how the squad is threadbare and why the dof left because of his failings in not getting in the players needed. Is the squad good again today? It wasn’t on Saturday.

The squad was shown up for what it is on Saturday

The team we had on the pitch should still have been capable of a lot, lot more. Actually putting a bit of effort in for starters.

[Sir David Gray]

Are you sure that’s accurate Matty?

Alex Miller was here for 10 years, qualified for Europe and won a cup so must have had spells doing well at home, Tony Mowbreys Hibs team seem to win at home every week but couldn’t buy an away win and Alex Mcleish hibs team skooshed the first division then had a good season in the premier league.

Apologies if I’ve picked your stat up wrong but doesn’t seem right to me?

Edit:- sorry, guessing that was win % you were talking about?

I believe Mowbray won 22 out of 42 home league matches in charge of us - so a win percentage of 52.4%.

Jack Ross has won 14 out of 33 home league matches so far - so a win percentage of 42.4%.

Not too sure what it looks like with all competitions taken into account so perhaps this is what is being referred to with regards to Ross having the better home record than Mowbray.

[Key West]

The squad was shown up for what it is on Saturday

The team we had on the pitch should still have been capable of a lot, lot more. Actually putting a bit of effort in for starters.

Agree 100%.

[Danderhall Hibs]

So if our home form continues to be a 52.5% point return rate from available points this season, who's fault will it be Jack Ross or Graeme Mathie?

Are you answering a question with a question? Clearly it’s a team effort isn’t it?

What is a good win rate % for a Hibs manager? And do we disregard the threadbare squad and pretend it’s not?

[Danderhall Hibs]

The squad was shown up for what it is on Saturday

The team we had on the pitch should still have been capable of a lot, lot more. Actually putting a bit of effort in for starters.

:agree: no denying that. Like they did a couple of weeks ago against the same opposition.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I believe Mowbray won 22 out of 42 home league matches in charge of us - so a win percentage of 52.4%.

Jack Ross has won 14 out of 33 home league matches so far - so a win percentage of 42.4%.

Not too sure what it looks like with all competitions taken into account so perhaps this is what is being referred to with regards to Ross having the better home record than Mowbray.

You sure SDG - I thought he won every game at home?

[90274]

Are you answering a question with a question? Clearly it’s a team effort isn’t it?

What is a good win rate % for a Hibs manager? And do we disregard the threadbare squad and pretend it’s not?

There were clearly failings in the transfer window that's left us short, but the window is now closed so it is over to Jack Ross to show how good a coach he is and work with what he has, which we understand is hampered with injuries too.

What is a good home record for us to aspire to that is realistic? Good question. It would be good to know what our best is since the SPL era from 2000 onwards. I think seasons such as 00/01 04/05 05/06 09/10 17/18 and 20/21 could provide good context as a start.

[Danderhall Hibs]

There were clearly failings in the transfer window that's left us short, but the window is now closed so it is over to Jack Ross to show how good a coach he is and work with what he has, which we understand is hampered with injuries too.

What is a good home record for us to aspire to that is realistic? Good question. It would be good to know what our best is since the SPL era from 2000 onwards. I think seasons such as 00/01 04/05 05/06 09/10 17/18 and 20/21 could provide good context as a start.

I agree and hopefully he will - but we can’t just ignore the squad is threadbare.

Also those seasons are a good starting point - hopefully someone that way inclined can go and get the stats for us!

[MWHIBBIES]

Are you sure that’s accurate Matty?

Alex Miller was here for 10 years, qualified for Europe and won a cup so must have had spells doing well at home, Tony Mowbreys Hibs team seem to win at home every week but couldn’t buy an away win and Alex Mcleish hibs team skooshed the first division then had a good season in the premier league.

Apologies if I’ve picked your stat up wrong but doesn’t seem right to me?

Edit:- sorry, guessing that was win % you were talking about?

Mowbray won 9 away matches in his first season, 9 at home.

Mowbray also had some absolute stinkers at home. Lost to Livi 3-0, Falkirk twice, Inverness (done the double at Easter Road in his 2nd season, beating us all 3 times).

[Perfect Hatrick]

You really think 14 wins from 33 is excellent?

Chuck in some absolute horror shows as well.

Most can agree away form has been excellent.

I know you’re going to come back and talk about how it compares historically so I’m not really sure why I’m asking. But if folk really thought we were excellent at home I’m sure more would be making more of an effort to attend.

Regardless of how we’ve done historically, I’m not sure 42% of home games won qualifies as excellent, even if it’s better than most of what came before.

Like bingo70 I’m also struggling to believe that it’s the 4th best home record we’ve ever had as well but if it is then that says more about us having a historically poor home record imo. For a third place finish you’re really looking at winning at least 50% of your games. For most teams that would see more of them being at home than away.

For as long as we can keep having a very good away record then the home record isn’t as much an issue if you want to look at it glass half full or it’s holding us back from challenging for 2nd if you want to look at it glass half empty.

[B.H.F.C]

:agree: no denying that. Like they did a couple of weeks ago against the same opposition.

Away from home. Which is probably quite important in the context of this thread. Why so different?

[matty_f]

I believe Mowbray won 22 out of 42 home league matches in charge of us - so a win percentage of 52.4%.

Jack Ross has won 14 out of 33 home league matches so far - so a win percentage of 42.4%.

Not too sure what it looks like with all competitions taken into account so perhaps this is what is being referred to with regards to Ross having the better home record than Mowbray.

All competitions. :agree:

[matty_f]

Regardless of how we’ve done historically, I’m not sure 42% of home games won qualifies as excellent, even if it’s better than most of what came before.

Like bingo70 I’m also struggling to believe that it’s the 4th best home record we’ve ever had as well but if it is then that says more about us having a historically poor home record imo. For a third place finish you’re really looking at winning at least 50% of your games. For most teams that would see more of them being at home than away.

For as long as we can keep having a very good away record then the home record isn’t as much an issue if you want to look at it glass half full or it’s holding us back from challenging for 2nd if you want to look at it glass half empty.

https://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/manager_records.php

Minted how we just dismiss Jack Ross being 4th best as being down to us historically not being great at home. For our entire existence.

Folk are going to great lengths to talk down what are some pretty good achievements for some reason.

[matty_f]

I think we'd currently be clear at the top just now if our home record was excellent. Had we managed to win on Saturday we'd have been 2 points off top.

I guess another point is that, as a club, we have grown and we now have an owner with cash who will demand better than history suggests.

A comment that is often made is that Jack Ross is under more scrutiny than previous managers, well yes, because of the squad we have, investment that's been made and general resources along with the infrastructure the club now has.

When Man City got their mega money it took them years to win the league, that’s with a huge investment into their squad.

We’ve had good investment but still modest in the grand scheme of things, I’m all for increasing standards and expectations but you don’t do it overnight.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Away from home. Which is probably quite important in the context of this thread. Why so different?

That’s true - I was responding to the “trying” comment. Like they did v Livi, Ross County and St Johnstone this season at home.

[matty_f]

Are you sure that’s accurate Matty?

Alex Miller was here for 10 years, qualified for Europe and won a cup so must have had spells doing well at home, Tony Mowbreys Hibs team seem to win at home every week but couldn’t buy an away win and Alex Mcleish hibs team skooshed the first division then had a good season in the premier league.

Apologies if I’ve picked your stat up wrong but doesn’t seem right to me?

Edit:- sorry, guessing that was win % you were talking about?

Yeah win percentage in all competitions. I posted the link above, I’ve not gone and calculated it all myself.

I don’t know why it’s hard to believe, we had a wee spell where our home form was a bit patchy but on the whole it’s been good.

There’s definitely a bit of bias/perception muddying the waters, i think.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Yeah win percentage in all competitions. I posted the link above, I’ve not gone and calculated it all myself.

I don’t know why it’s hard to believe, we had a wee spell where our home form was a bit patchy but on the whole it’s been good.

There’s definitely a bit of bias/perception muddying the waters, i think.

And reminiscing of the Mowbray glory days when we go from 4-1 to 4-4 etc.

[B.H.F.C]

And reminiscing of the Mowbray glory days when we go from 4-1 to 4-4 etc.

Think it’s maybe beating Hearts and Rangers that folk remember a bit more, in fairness.

[MWHIBBIES]

And reminiscing of the Mowbray glory days when we go from 4-1 to 4-4 etc.

That happened once. Not really what I think of when I remember that team.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Think it’s maybe beating Hearts and Rangers that folk remember a bit more, in fairness.

Don't get me started on them - mind Zibi in the 2-2, Brown and McNeil letting Charlie Adam shots in at their near posts?

I didn't realise we only counted those games though - could explain why the stats don't really back up the argument being made.

[Danderhall Hibs]

That happened once. Not really what I think of when I remember that team.

Same here - it didn't take me long to remember it though. Perception is reality though.

[B.H.F.C]

Don't get me started on them - mind Zibi in the 2-2, Brown and McNeil letting Charlie Adam shots in at their near posts?

I didn't realise we only counted those games though - could explain why the stats don't really back up the argument being made.

What a bizarre post. Don’t think anybody ‘only counted’ those games. They’re just not the ones I remember.

Despite the stats I still think we have performed poorly at home under JR. 14 wins out of 33 isn’t really that great IMO, especially when a third of those wins have been against lower league teams.

[Perfect Hatrick]

https://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/manager_records.php

Minted how we just dismiss Jack Ross being 4th best as being down to us historically not being great at home. For our entire existence.

Folk are going to great lengths to talk down what are some pretty good achievements for some reason.

If a 42% win record at home is the 4th best a manager has achieved at Hibs though then that is historically very poor imo even if you don’t think so.

Put simply, I don’t think winning 42% of home games is a pretty good achievement when you’re the third best team in the country.

[90274]

When Man City got their mega money it took them years to win the league, that’s with a huge investment into their squad.

We’ve had good investment but still modest in the grand scheme of things, I’m all for increasing standards and expectations but you don’t do it overnight.

We finished 3rd last season with a home record of 27 points from 57 points - 47% of available points which included 7 wins at home from 19 - 37%. Which is skewed further without Hearts in the league.

I think some fans are realising that as crazy as it sounds we are actually really under achieving when you take our home record and Big Game records into account. The stat of 2 wins from 20 in games against Rangers Celtic, Hearts and at Hampden is unbelievable.

There have been worse Hibs teams with better records in big games and more than likely better home records.

If we could sort out the home record and win the occasional big game that everyone remembers we could be doing really really well.

[MWHIBBIES]

Same here - it didn't take me long to remember it though. Perception is reality though.

Yes, it happened once and was one of the most amazing games at Easter Road in the last 50 years. Everyone remembers it. It certainly isn't some kind of defining moment in Mowbrays time here.

[90274]

What a bizarre post. Don’t think anybody ‘only counted’ those games. They’re just not the ones I remember.

Despite the stats I still think we have performed poorly at home under JR. 14 wins out of 33 isn’t really that great IMO, especially when a third of those wins have been against lower league teams.
The 14 from 33 is league games only.

[Danderhall Hibs]

What a bizarre post. Don’t think anybody ‘only counted’ those games. They’re just not the ones I remember.

Despite the stats I still think we have performed poorly at home under JR. 14 wins out of 33 isn’t really that great IMO, especially when a third of those wins have been against lower league teams.

I'm not sure why it's bizarre other than it's something you don't agree with. As the post above shows you've not even got your numbers correct.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Yes, it happened once and was one of the most amazing games at Easter Road in the last 50 years. Everyone remembers it. It certainly isn't some kind of defining moment in Mowbrays time here.

I didn't say it was? It's relevant though as it was a home game we didn't win (along with the others mentioned earlier) despite the fact someone else said he only remembers winning at home under Mowbray.

[Danderhall Hibs]

We finished 3rd last season with a home record of 27 points from 57 points - 47% of available points which included 7 wins at home from 19 - 37%. Which is skewed further without Hearts in the league.

I think some fans are realising that as crazy as it sounds we are actually really under achieving when you take our home record and Big Game records into account. The stat of 2 wins from 20 in games against Rangers Celtic, Hearts and at Hampden is unbelievable.

There have been worse Hibs teams with better records in big games and more than likely better home records.

If we could sort out the home record and win the occasional big game that everyone remembers we could be doing really really well.

We do win the occasional big game - they've just started dropping out of the stats being posted as they don't fit anymore. Definitely an area of further improvement though. Be great to win vs the OF and then not follow it with a pumping from Livi - that's the real goal rather than just winning occasionally vs them (think that's classed as being a "boy band").

[Key West]

So the thread turned onto a disagreement about stats, it's about now and this season, our performances at home have been poor.

[Heisenberg]

So the thread turned onto a disagreement about stats, it's about now and this season, our performances at home have been poor.

Not all of them. Very poor on Saturday and against St Mirren obviously.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Hibs need to start games with some intent and perhaps that will get both the team and the crowd going, too many times we are relying on Boyle to be brave and create the spark, our lone striker is often isolated and there's no urgency from the midfield to get in the box apart from Magennis.

I agree with this. Don't think may will disagree - midfield was far to far apart on Saturday and when Boyle is marked out the game we can struggle. Need others to step up and now we've lost Magennis' goals it's even more obvious.

[90274]

So the thread turned onto a disagreement about stats, it's about now and this season, our performances at home have been poor.

Yes, absolutely.

But it is relevant to discuss in the context of the overall picture including big games and being 4th in win % ratio amongst all Hibs managers, which is undoubtedly enhanced with early season league cup group stage wins and wins against lower league opposition in cups for a start.

It will be interesting to keep an eye on Jack Ross overall win % and placing throughout this season.

The home record must improve!

[matty_f]

Yes, absolutely.

But it is relevant to discuss in the context of the overall picture including big games and being 4th in win % ratio amongst all Hibs managers, which is undoubtedly enhanced with early season league cup group stage wins and wins against lower league opposition in cups for a start.

It will be interesting to keep an eye on Jack Ross overall win % and placing throughout this season.

The home record must improve!

Think i saw a stat that he’s currently on 2 points per game on home games this season (haven’t checked it) which would put us at 67% points gained at home.

How much better do you want it?

[matty_f]

Think i saw a stat that he’s currently on 2 points per game on home games this season (haven’t checked it) which would put us at 67% points gained at home.

How much better do you want it?

Edit - i have checked it, 2 points per league game at home is right.

[matty_f]

If a 42% win record at home is the 4th best a manager has achieved at Hibs though then that is historically very poor imo even if you don’t think so.

Put simply, I don’t think winning 42% of home games is a pretty good achievement when you’re the third best team in the country.
Surely it’s good enough to be third best team in the country?

[matty_f]

If a 42% win record at home is the 4th best a manager has achieved at Hibs though then that is historically very poor imo even if you don’t think so.

Put simply, I don’t think winning 42% of home games is a pretty good achievement when you’re the third best team in the country.

52% home win record, not 42%.

[Perfect Hatrick]

Surely it’s good enough to be third best team in the country?

I didn’t say it wasn’t. It’s only good enough when your away record is exceptionally good though.

As I said, I don’t think exceptional away records for Hibs are particularly sustainable although that’s maybe just because we’ve been conditioned to think that away games in football are more difficult.

[90274]

Think i saw a stat that he’s currently on 2 points per game on home games this season (haven’t checked it) which would put us at 67% points gained at home.

How much better do you want it?

Considering we have played so far at home in the league...

Ross County
Livingston
St Mirren
St Johnstone
Dundee Utd

I think I want nearer a 3 point average than 2.

[Perfect Hatrick]

52% home win record, not 42%.

It’s 42% in the league.

[matty_f]

It’s 42% in the league.

Ok, we’re just picking those, then. Cool.

[matty_f]

Considering we have played so far at home in the league...

Ross County
Livingston
St Mirren
St Johnstone
Dundee Utd

I think I want nearer a 3 point average than 2.

Interesting setting the bar at 100% for teams that aren’t big games and then also demanding wins against the big games teams.

I’m not sure anyone is capable of those standards.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I didn’t say it wasn’t. It’s only good enough when your away record is exceptionally good though.

As I said, I don’t think exceptional away records for Hibs are particularly sustainable although that’s maybe just because we’ve been conditioned to think that away games in football are more difficult.

Can we take into account historic records?

[90274]

Next five home league matches...

Celtic
Rangers
Motherwell
Dundee
Aberdeen

[Danderhall Hibs]

Interesting setting the bar at 100% for teams that aren’t big games and then also demanding wins against the big games teams.

I’m not sure anyone is capable of those standards.

Didn't Mowbray do it?

[matty_f]

I didn’t say it wasn’t. It’s only good enough when your away record is exceptionally good though.

As I said, I don’t think exceptional away records for Hibs are particularly sustainable although that’s maybe just because we’ve been conditioned to think that away games in football are more difficult.

This is mental. His league form, home and away got us third - fairly comfortably.

It’s not good enough if you’re the third best team in the country though, even though it was good enough to be the third best team in the country because being good away from home over the season was too good to sustain?

[Perfect Hatrick]

Ok, we’re just picking those, then. Cool.

I replied to a post that was talking about league games only. You then replied to me. That’s what started the whole conversation between us. So yes, I thought it was really quite clear we were just picking those. Maybe you should have avoided the discussion completely if you were going to take the hump about it.

[90274]

Interesting setting the bar at 100% for teams that aren’t big games and then also demanding wins against the big games teams.

I’m not sure anyone is capable of those standards.

Nobody is demanding that we win every game like Man City.

I think we'd like to be picking up more points against the aforementioned teams at home as we'd all be expecting to finish above them.

Surely it's also not unreasonable to want more than 2 wins (out of 20) from games against Rangers Celtic Hearts and at Hampden which can really provide momentum and a bounce for the rest of the season.

[matty_f]

I replied to a post that was talking about league games only. You then replied to me. That’s what started the whole conversation between us. So yes, I thought it was really quite clear we were just picking those. Maybe you should have avoided the discussion completely if you were going to take the hump about it.
I’m not taking the hump, just struggling to keep up with the knots folk are tying themselves up in to try and talk down a home record that stands up to any credible scrutiny you can put it on it.

[Perfect Hatrick]

This is mental. His league form, home and away got us third - fairly comfortably.

It’s not good enough if you’re the third best team in the country though, even though it was good enough to be the third best team in the country because being good away from home over the season was too good to sustain?

If we won every away game and won 2 or 3 home games we’d have finished 3rd.

That wouldn’t have been good enough in terms of our home record. Not every aspect of the football club has to have been good enough just because we finished 3rd. That’s a sure fire way to make sure you never get better.

[bingo70]

I didn't say it was? It's relevant though as it was a home game we didn't win (along with the others mentioned earlier) despite the fact someone else said he only remembers winning at home under Mowbray.

Few times you’ve mentioned that now.

You’re clearly intelligent enough to know I wasn’t being serious about us winning every game under Mowbray, it was a light hearted throw away comment as my memory of mowbreys team was that we were excellent at home, but struggled away from home.

It was also when i was under the impression Matty was talking about most home wins rather than a %, which is why I thought mowbreys team would have won more at home (I don’t know if he did or not but i would have thought he did).

[Perfect Hatrick]

I’m not taking the hump, just struggling to keep up with the knots folk tying themselves up in to try and talk down a home record that stands up to any credible scrutiny you can put it on it.

👍🏼

You think the record is very good. Others don’t.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Few times you’ve mentioned that now.

You’re clearly intelligent enough to know I wasn’t being serious about us winning every game under Mowbray, it was a light hearted throw away comment as my memory of mowbreys team was that we were excellent at home, but struggled away from home.

It was also when i was under the impression Matty was talking about most home wins rather than a %, which is why I thought mowbreys team would have won more at home (I don’t know if he did or not but i would have thought he did).

Sorry mate - got mixed in with the other folk twisting and turning stats to suit their argument.

I do remember a great winning away record at one point under Mowbray - maybe 6 or 7 straight wins.

[matty_f]

In your opinion.

As with everything on here it’s opinion.

Unless it’s fact and evidence based, of course.

[MWHIBBIES]

Didn't Mowbray do it?

No, he definitely didn't.

[Perfect Hatrick]

As with everything on here it’s opinion.

Unless it’s fact and evidence based, of course.

Being 4th best in our history only makes it good enough if your opinion is that being 4th best in our history is good enough.

[Danderhall Hibs]

👍🏼

You think the record is very good. Others don’t.

Think the stats say it's a comparatively good record don't they? If you ignore the stats and don't compare them to what's gone on in the last 145 years can you think it's not good? By setting 100% win targets you're setting yourself up to fail (or setting the manager up to fail).

[bingo70]

Sorry mate - got mixed in with the other folk twisting and turning stats to suit their argument.

I do remember a great winning away record at one point under Mowbray - maybe 6 or 7 straight wins.

Better memory than me then, I don’t remember that.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Being 4th best in our history only makes it good enough if your opinion is that being 4th best in our history is good enough.

There's still time for him to improve it. Does he have to be the best in our history for it to be recognised as good?

[90274]

I’m not taking the hump, just struggling to keep up with the knots folk are tying themselves up in to try and talk down a home record that stands up to any credible scrutiny you can put it on it.

I don't think his home record does stand up to scrutiny as I've pointed out in my posts.
Had our away form not been exceptionally good last season it would be a different story altogether.

I can't imagine winning 52.5% of available points at home in the league is deemed good enough in any league? It's not great.

On the same token, What memorable home wins do we have? Two wins against Aberdeen and Motherwell on penalties?

[B.H.F.C]

I'm not sure why it's bizarre other than it's something you don't agree with. As the post above shows you've not even got your numbers correct.

I found it a bizarre thing to bring up, rather than the good things from that time. When the current team have some of those type of wins to remember, I’ll bring them up as well.

Ok, I thought the 33 games were all competitions rather than just the league. My point/opinion remains the same, I think we’ve been pretty poor at home and that’s a big factor in why ER is as empty and quiet as it is. By contrast, we’ve been good away from home under JR, our away crowds are good, and it’s a whole lot more enjoyable.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Better memory than me then, I don’t remember that.

I remember it being back page of the EEN and being surprised it was a big deal. Just done a quick google and 2005 we done 6 straight away wins - probably that one, lost the 7th.

[Perfect Hatrick]

Think the stats say it's a comparatively good record don't they? If you ignore the stats and don't compare them to what's gone on in the last 145 years can you think it's not good? By setting 100% win targets you're setting yourself up to fail (or setting the manager up to fail).

Comparatively to previous managers it is good, yes. I’d more interested in comparing it to teams that have finished third place though seeing as that’s our aim going forward. We’re aiming to finish third each season, not just be as good or slightly better than we have been previously seeing as we next to never finish 3rd.

We’ve historically underachieved. We’re aiming to be best of the rest now, we need to aim for better than just being comparatively good to people who didn’t manage that to get there and/or stay there. We need to be aiming to have similar and/or better records than teams who have finished third previously.

[Perfect Hatrick]

There's still time for him to improve it. Does he have to be the best in our history for it to be recognised as good?

Of course there is. And that’s what this thread is all about really, folk wanting us to improve on it. Fingers crossed we can manage that.

[matty_f]

Think the stats say it's a comparatively good record don't they? If you ignore the stats and don't compare them to what's gone on in the last 145 years can you think it's not good? By setting 100% win targets you're setting yourself up to fail (or setting the manager up to fail).

You need to benchmark against something - what’s gone before is a good start, League pacing is another, points per game is a decent one to pick out.

I know “what is good?” is subjective but to answer that you need to use something as a measure.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Comparatively to previous managers it is good, yes. I’d more interested in comparing it to teams that have finished third place though seeing as that’s our aim going forward. We’re aiming to finish third each season, not just be as good or slightly better than we have been previously seeing as we never end up 3rd usually.

We’ve historically underachieved. We’re aiming to be best of the rest now, we need to aim for better than just being comparatively good to people who didn’t manage that to get there and stay there. We need to be aiming to have similar and/or better records than teams who have finished third previously.

I agree that historically the record isn't good and that 5th isn't very good - but it's still ok/good. 4th is good, 3rd is very good.

And we finished 3rd. Some are definitely holding Jack Ross to higher standards than we've done to other managers.

[Perfect Hatrick]

I agree that historically the record isn't good and that 5th isn't very good - but it's still ok/good. 4th is good, 3rd is very good.

And we finished 3rd. Some are definitely holding Jack Ross to higher standards than we've done to other managers.

I would agree he’s being held to a higher standard but If we’re aiming higher now then Ross has to be held to a higher standard I’d say. If we want to finish higher than we historically do then we have to expect more of everyone involved in our club than we used to.

[90274]

I would agree he’s being held to a higher standard but If we’re aiming higher now then Ross has to be held to a higher standard I’d say. If we want to finish higher than we historically do then we have to expect more of everyone involved in our club than we used to.

Great Post.

Perfectly sums up why we are discussing his Home Record and Big Game Record.

The Club has moved forward off the field under Ron.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I would agree he’s being held to a higher standard but If we’re aiming higher now then Ross has to be held to a higher standard I’d say. If we want to finish higher than we historically do then we have to expect more of everyone involved in our club than we used to.

I think you're right to some extent. My point is we did finish higher than we historically do but it's still not good enough.

[90274]

I think you're right to some extent. My point is we did finish higher than we historically do but it's still not good enough.

Certainly in the later stages of the cups last season it wasn't good enough.

[Sir David Gray]

All competitions. :agree:

I thought that would be the case and I agree that is a sensible comparison to make rather than just league games.

However I still don't agree that Ross' home record is better than Mowbray's.

If my research is correct then I believe we won 31 out of 53 home matches under Mowbray in all competitions - win percentage of 58.5%.

We have won 22 out of 42 home matches in all competitions so far under Ross - win percentage of 52.4%.

More than happy for that to be proved incorrect - I personally have no axe to grind with Jack Ross at the moment.

Source - Soccerbase.com

[Danderhall Hibs]

Certainly in the later stages of the cups last season it wasn't good enough.

How many of them were at ER?

[90274]

I thought that would be the case and I agree that is a sensible comparison to make rather than just league games.

However I still don't agree that Ross' home record is better than Mowbray's.

If my research is correct then I believe we won 31 out of 53 home matches under Mowbray in all competitions - win percentage of 58.5%.

We have won 22 out of 42 home matches in all competitions so far under Ross - win percentage of 52.4%.

More than happy for that to be proved incorrect - I personally have no axe to grind with Jack Ross at the moment.

Source - Soccerbase.com

So at home in all competitions, Mowbray considerably better?

[Danderhall Hibs]

So at home in all competitions, Mowbray considerably better?

If 6% is "considerable" then yes it looks like it.

[Perfect Hatrick]

I think you're right to some extent. My point is we did finish higher than we historically do but it's still not good enough.

I’d be interested to see the win percentages at home in the league of teams that have previously finished third.

I do think that it would be the case that most seasons a 42% home win record wouldn’t usually be good enough. I know that overall it’s not only home games that matters and that away games matter just as much but in the context of this thread home games are all that matter.

If we have one of the lowest home win % of teams that finish third then I’d suggest that would mean there’s a good chance we’d struggle to finish third very often unless it gets better.

[90274]

I’d be interested to see the win percentages at home in the league of teams that have previously finished third.

I do think that it would be the case that most seasons a 42% home win record wouldn’t usually be good enough. I know that overall it’s not only home games that matters and that away games matter just as much but in the context of this thread it is.

If we have one of the lowest home win % of teams that finish third then I’d suggest that would mean there’s a good chance we’d struggle to finish third very often unless it gets better.

Or, if we get the Home Record sorted out, we can challenge for 2nd?

[Perfect Hatrick]

Or, if we get the Home Record sorted out, we can challenge for 2nd?

Or that as well which ultimately seems to be Ron’s aim :agree:

[90274]

Or that as well which ultimately seems to be Ron’s aim :agree:

Ron is showing ambition off the field.

Time to show ambition on the field.

[J-C]

Would it be to much to ask for us to have near enough 100% win ratio against the 7 lower teams and at least 50% against Rangers,Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen. I'm pretty sure when Ron said he wanted to be the best of the rest he was looking for us to at least challenge the top 2 and not be getting humped at home by Livi, Ross C, Motherwell and Dundee U, and a 0-1 loss to St Johnstone.

[Perfect Hatrick]

Would it be to much to ask for us to have near enough 100% win ratio against the 7 lower teams and at least 50% against Rangers,Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen. I'm pretty sure when Ron said he wanted to be the best of the rest he was looking for us to at least challenge the top 2 and not be getting humped at home by Livi, St Mirren and Dunde U.

That is too much to ask imo and I say that as someone who thinks we should be better at home. I reckon 11 or so wins would be really good and about where we should be aiming. 14 or so wins as you’ve described would be utterly ridiculous.

To put that into perspective, that many wins would put you 3 points short of St Johnstone who finished 5th. That’s without considering the 19 away games.

[MWHIBBIES]

Would it be to much to ask for us to have near enough 100% win ratio against the 7 lower teams and at least 50% against Rangers,Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen. I'm pretty sure when Ron said he wanted to be the best of the rest he was looking for us to at least challenge the top 2 and not be getting humped at home by Livi, Ross C, Motherwell and Dundee U, and a 0-1 loss to St Johnstone.

Yes, that would clearly be too much to ask. No one aside from Rangers and Celtic have come even close to that in the history of scottish football.

Finished 3rd makes us the best of the rest.

[Allant1981]

I don't think his home record does stand up to scrutiny as I've pointed out in my posts.
Had our away form not been exceptionally good last season it would be a different story altogether.

I can't imagine winning 52.5% of available points at home in the league is deemed good enough in any league? It's not great.

On the same token, What memorable home wins do we have? Two wins against Aberdeen and Motherwell on penalties?

Very much a, if my aunty had baws argument there, we did get points away from home and that combined with our home results was enough to get us 3rd

[CJHibby]

I think we are getting too bogged down in the stats side of things. Even if under JR we had the same win rate as under TM, I personally enjoyed watching Tony's team a damned sight more than this one. We need to find a better way of playing at home, simple as that. Away from home suits us but for ER we want attacking football, ok Mr. Ross?

[Allant1981]

I think we are getting too bogged down in the stats side of things. Even if under JR we had the same win rate as under TM, I personally enjoyed watching Tony's team a damned sight more than this one. We need to find a better way of playing at home, simple as that. Away from home suits us but for ER we want attacking football, ok Mr. Ross?

Would you like to play attacking football all the time and get beat or play the way the manager wants and get results?

[B.H.F.C]

Would you like to play attacking football all the time and get beat or play the way the manager wants and get results?

I think the current debate shows that it’s not just all about results.

Anybody supporting Hibs understands we’re not going to win every week. But if you look at teams who have finished in comparable league positions to this one and I can’t remember the same level of debate about it not being good to watch or whatever. Think that is also reflected in the number of people turning up to watch at ER.

[Allant1981]

I think the current debate shows that it’s not just all about results.

Anybody supporting Hibs understands we’re not going to win every week. But if you look at teams who have finished in comparable league positions to this one and I can’t remember the same level of debate about it not being good to watch or whatever. Think that is also reflected in the number of people turning up to watch at ER.

If we were playing all out attack every week and getting humped i guarantee folk would be on here moaning that we need to be more defensive, fans will never be happy

[B.H.F.C]

If we were playing all out attack every week and getting humped i guarantee folk would be on here moaning that we need to be more defensive, fans will never be happy

Obviously if we were getting beat every week, folk wouldn’t be happy. I agree you can’t keep everyone happy, I just think this team could be keeping more people happy. Best indicator is how many seats are filled in the ground IMO and that’s telling it’s own story at the moment.

[The Modfather]

If we were playing all out attack every week and getting humped i guarantee folk would be on here moaning that we need to be more defensive, fans will never be happy

Is anybody advocating all out attack or has any Hibs side in the last 20 or 30 years played all out attacking football? Personally I’d sacrifice a league place or two for a more attacking, high energy style with midfielders running ahead of the ball, over a league place or two higher with a more pragmatic style.

[Since452]

Is anybody advocating all out attack or has any Hibs side in the last 20 or 30 years played all out attacking football? Personally I’d sacrifice a league place or two for a more attacking, high energy style with midfielders running ahead of the ball, over a league place or two higher with a more pragmatic style.

You'd happily see us lose more games of football? Each to their own!

[Perfect Hatrick]

If we were playing all out attack every week and getting humped i guarantee folk would be on here moaning that we need to be more defensive, fans will never be happy

Why does it need to be one or the other?

Also, you’ll generally find that the world over that football teams that play a style of football that’s easy on the eye are generally pretty good at getting results as well. This idea that good football will see you get beat which seems to get trotted out to defend boring football is daft really.

The vast majority of the time the teams that are challenging for leagues are playing cracking football as well. Rangers won the league last year playing great football. Man City done it. Bayern done it. Liverpool done it the year before and Man City done it the year before.

Playing good football usually happens because you’re a good side and will usually see you do really well.

[The Modfather]

You'd happily see us lose more games of football? Each to their own!

In the black and white hypothetical world. I’d sacrifice some wins and a league place or two to enjoy my Saturday afternoons rather than enjoy Hibs doing well but at the cost of the 90 minutes on a Saturday being the part that’s a chore.

[Perfect Hatrick]

You'd happily see us lose more games of football? Each to their own!

I would if it meant we were better to watch.

If I’m walking up to Easter road for our next game I’d rather be walking up for a game like the 5-5 against rangers than I would be walking up for the recent 1-0. St Johnstone.

[Since452]

I would if it meant we were better to watch.

If I’m walking up to Easter road for our next game I’d rather be walking up for a game like the 5-5 against rangers than I would be walking up for the recent 1-0. St Johnstone.

I'd take the 1-0 every day of the week.

[Perfect Hatrick]

I'd take the 1-0 every day of the week.

And that’s fair enough.

Some people clearly don’t go to football for the entertainment and only go for results - although I suppose to them that maybe is their entertainment. That’s absolutely fine. Plenty go for the entertainment though of watching a team playing exciting football with sublime individuals and team play and it’s quite apparent from our crowds and comments online that people don’t feel they’re getting that

[Allant1981]

I would if it meant we were better to watch.

If I’m walking up to Easter road for our next game I’d rather be walking up for a game like the 5-5 against rangers than I would be walking up for the recent 1-0. St Johnstone.

Id be willing to bet money that you wouldnt, no football fan should be happy to lose more games

[CJHibby]

Winning games is obviously the end goal but taking last year's Scottish Cup Final as an example, uf we list a thrilling final I suspect more fans would be ok with that than the performance we witnessed. I don't want to see Hibs play Bertie Auld style again.

[Allant1981]

Why does it need to be one or the other?

Also, you’ll generally find that the world over that football teams that play a style of football that’s easy on the eye are generally pretty good at getting results as well. This idea that good football will see you get beat which seems to get trotted out to defend boring football is daft really.

The vast majority of the time the teams that are challenging for leagues are playing cracking football as well. Rangers won the league last year playing great football. Man City done it. Bayern done it. Liverpool done it the year before and Man City done it the year before.

Playing good football usually happens because you’re a good side and will usually see you do really well.

You do realise these teams spent multi millions on players to be able to play like that, think you need to come into the real world

[Perfect Hatrick]

You do realise these teams spent multi millions on players to be able to play like that, think you need to come into the real world

And they have to play against teams with multi million pound players.

It’s not impossible to play like them in Scotland. Lennons Hibs and Mowbrays Hibs were every bit as exciting as these teams, they just played at a lower level.

Nobody is suggesting we should play like them and also be as good as them. There’s nothing to stop us playing in the same style as them though.

The Hibs teams that have played the best football in the past 40 years have probably been Mowbrays and Lennons at the end of the 17/18 season. They also got results. It can quite clearly be done at Hibs.

[CJHibby]

Rangers and Celtic attack domestically pretty much every game so why shouldn't we?

[Allant1981]

And they have to play against teams with multi million pound players.

It’s not impossible to play like them in Scotland. Lennons Hibs and Mowbrays Hibs were every bit as exciting as these teams, they just played at a lower level.

Nobody is suggesting we should play like them and also be as good as them. There’s nothing to stop us playing in the same style as them though.

The Hibs teams that have played the best football in the past 40 years have probably been Mowbrays and Lennons at the end of the 17/18 season. It can quite clearly be done at Hibs.

If you think its not impossible to play like the teams you mentioned then ill bow out of this as i cant take you serious any longer, and we werent great every week under mowbray, or lennon for that fact, especially in the championship

[Perfect Hatrick]

Id be willing to bet money that you wouldnt, no football fan should be happy to lose more games

I’d be willing to bet money that I would.

Football fans should be happy with whatever they’re happy with, not what you tell us to be happy with. If that’s 1-0 slogs that you win then that’s fine. If that’s 5-5 draws that’ll live with you for the rest of your life because it was such incredible entertainment that’s also fine.

I can safely say that I’m glad that Rangers game went the way it did rather than a boring 1-0 win. That game will live with me forever and was simply incredible entertainment.

[Allant1981]

Rangers and Celtic attack domestically pretty much every game so why shouldn't we?

Quite simple, they have better players

[Perfect Hatrick]

If you think its not impossible to play like the teams you mentioned then ill bow out of this as i cant take you serious any longer, and we werent great every week under mowbray, or lennon for that fact, especially in the championship

You’re right. Kick and rush is all Scottish football teams can play.

[CJHibby]

Perfect Hatrick hits the nail squarely on the head. We pay high enough wages within the Scottish game to play such like. We are historically renowned for it.

[CJHibby]

With all due respect, Love the Hibs, we aren't Ross County. We have a lot of good players at present and will flourish in an attacking formation. I think Doig should be used more extensively in an attacking sense as going forward he is great but not so good defensively. Rangers and Celtic have better players but it doesn't stop you attacking them. Furthermore, with lesser teams we should be much more ruthless imho.

[Allant1981]

With all due respect, Love the Hibs, we aren't Ross County. We have a lot of good players at present and will flourish in an attacking formation. I think Doig should be used more extensively in an attacking sense as going forward he is great but not so good defensively. Rangers and Celtic have better players but it doesn't stop you attacking them. Furthermore, with lesser teams we should be much more ruthless imho.

So you want to push him forward more knowing he isnt so good at defending, so when he is away up the park more and left exposed we have a greater chance of condeding goals, cool

[CJHibby]

For years my friend(Aberdeen fan) would keep telling me it's all about the result but I genuinely hope I don't watch Hibs playing week in week out like a McInnes team. Some of our recent performances have been bad enough! I go to ER to support my team but want to be entertained as well as hoping to win. If we create lots of chances and win/lose or draw, I'm fine with that..romantic notion or stupid to some.

[Allant1981]

For years my friend(Aberdeen fan) would keep telling me it's all about the result but I genuinely hope I don't watch Hibs playing week in week out like a McInnes team. Some of our recent performances have been bad enough! I go to ER to support my team but want to be entertained as well as hoping to win. If we create lots of chances and win/lose or draw, I'm fine with that..romantic notion or stupid to some.

Each to their own bud, id rather just get a result, preferably a win

[CJHibby]

The hope is Doig can create goals from the left and Boyle on the right. As the old adage says you are not defending whilst you're attacking.

[CJHibby]

I'm greedy..I want to win and play good football.:flag:

[wookie70]

I'm greedy..I want to win and play good football.:flag:

I think we all think that but I'm in the entertainment camp too. There should be a happy medium and I'm not sure we are at that point was Ross. He has done very well with results although they have tapered off a bit but the performances have been workmanlike and pragmatic for the most part. I have no issue with that at the moment as we have had no fans for most games and he has earnt some time but I do want to see a more expansive, faster game with player who will press the opposition and get the crowd going with their endeavour. The 5-5 game might be a one off but it is a great example. It was tactically disastrous in so many ways but is one of the favourite games I have been at because it was pure football with both teams trying to score more than the other.

[loanheadhibby]

And reminiscing of the Mowbray glory days when we go from 4-1 to 4-4 etc.

Oh for the excitement of those days. Swashbuckling football at it’s best.

I’d genuinely take that again any day of the week.

And for balance, Mowbray’s team choked at Hampden as well to be fair. Still not over that!

[90274]

I think I'd prefer to watch a team that is more in the spirit of the Hibs DNA.

This turgid team just now has a 52.5% point running rate at home and doesn't have a great record in the bigger games.

I'd like to see us come out the traps flying and having a go at teams within the first 30mins.

Now that fans are back at games I get the sense that the style of football and manner of the performances might end up being Jack Ross' undoing in the eyes of the fans if this home record continues.

[CJHibby]

If there was ever a time to try and play fast, attacking football it is now. Rangers and Celtic look rocky and Hearts defence can be breached if focusing on the flanks. Here's hoping when we get closer to full strength we kick on. Tora Tora Tora :cb

[Key West]

Again I wasn't suggesting that we sack Jack Ross or compare him with others but we definitely need to see a bit of urgency and intent from the start of games which might encourage the players and the crowd.

[andrew70]

4th best home record of all time for Hibs managers. Let’s discuss it - it’s excellent.

He's fourth best yes but he should be higher. Your stat only really highlights how poor we've been previously.

Marked improvement is necessary as investment grows.

[matty_f]

He's fourth best yes but he should be higher. Your stat only really highlights how poor we've been previously.

Marked improvement is necessary as investment grows.

The investment didn’t come all at once and expectations should rightfully increase but also in a realistic way.

[Perfect Hatrick]

He's fourth best yes but he should be higher. Your stat only really highlights how poor we've been previously.

Marked improvement is necessary as investment grows.

Pretty much where I’m at. Investment has grown, ambitions are publicly higher than our average historical performance so it stands to reason the least we should be expecting is for our manager to have a home record that is better than most.

The question for me is whether it’s good enough in terms of how much better it is. 42% of home league games won when roughly 47% of the games come against bottom 6 teams can and should be improved on imo. If it does then I’m sure we’ll start to get some of the fans that are staying away back and we’ll stand a great chance of finishing third again.

[90274]

He's fourth best yes but he should be higher. Your stat only really highlights how poor we've been previously.

Marked improvement is necessary as investment grows.

Yes, I agree. We should be looking forward not backwards to the past where we have been perennial under-achievers.

It's time for us to get the home sorted out (well Jack Ross) and deliver performances that match the resources the club now has.

It's not a case of fine margins, it's a case of delivering for Jack Ross or I think Ron will look to someone who can.

[andrew70]

The investment didn’t come all at once and expectations should rightfully increase but also in a realistic way.

What would/should realistic be?

Minimum top four, cup success and europe.

Sounds simple but so many variables as with any football team but to grow we've got to be expecting better than 14/33 home wins. Match last season's away tally and improve home form then we'll be flying high as we should be.

Time will tell but at the minute we are fighting below our weight imo

[matty_f]

What would/should realistic be?

Minimum top four, cup success and europe.

Sounds simple but so many variables as with any football team but to grow we've got to be expecting better than 14/33 home wins. Match last season's away tally and improve home form then we'll be flying high as we should be.

Time will tell but at the minute we are fighting below our weight imo

Season on season improvement. The club (IIRC) target minimum top 4 and semi finals of the cups. I believe the aim is to regularly feature in the group stages of European competition.

I don’t think we are fighting below our weight.
A third place finish, European qualification, semi finals and a final is about right/slightly above where we “should” be based on budget etc.

[90274]

Took a look at home league records of previous teams that finished 3rd/4th - seasons 00/01, 04/05, 05/06, 09/10 and 17/18 with 20/21 and JR record



Season
P
W
D
L
Pts
Apts
W%
Pts%


2000-01
19
11
6
2
39
57
57.9%
68.4%


2004-05
19
9
4
6
31
57
47.4%
54.4%


2005-06
19
11
1
7
34
57
57.9%
59.6%


2009-10
19
9
4
6
31
57
47.4%
54.4%


2017-18
19
11
4
4
37
57
57.9%
64.9%


2020-21
19
7
6
6
27
57
36.8%
47.4%













JR
33
14
10
9
52
99
42.4%
52.5%




Most Wins: 11 - 3 times
Most Points: 39 - 00/01
Highest Win%: 57.9% - 3 times
Highest Point%: 68.4% - 00/01


Taking seasons 00/01, 04/05, 05/06, 09/10 and 17/18 the average home wins in a season is 10.2, the average points is 34.4 which equates to a win % of 53.7% and a point % of 60.4.

Under Jack Ross in 20/21 we won 7 league matches at home and took 27 points for a win % of 36.8% and a point % of 47.4%.

Jack Ross current record is 14 wins from 33 league matches at home and 52 points from 99 pts which is a win % of 42.4% and a point % of 52.5% both well below the average of well performing teams in previous years which average 10 wins a season and 34 pts at home.

In comparison, Hearts best is 2005-6, Won 15 games at home and won 47 pts at home.

[90274]

Similarly, analysis of JR in games v Hearts Aberdeen Rangers Celtic and at Hampden.






P

W

D

L

Pts

A Pts

W%

Pts%


Overall
25

5

5

15

17

63

20.0%

27.0%


Home
9

2

3

4

9

27

22.2%

33.3%


Away
12

2

2

8

8

36

16.7%

22.2%


Hampden
4

1

0

3





25.0%




Aberdeen
6

3

0

3

9

18

50.0%

50.0%


Celtic
5

0

3

2

3

15

0.0%

20.0%


Rangers
7

0

1

6

1

21

0.0%

4.8%


Hearts
4

1

1

2

4

9

25.0%

44.4%

[Eyrie]

Similarly, analysis of JR in games v Hearts Aberdeen Rangers Celtic and at Hampden.






P

W

D

L

Pts

A Pts

W%

Pts%


Overall
25

5

5

15

17

63

20.0%

27.0%


Home
9

2

3

4

9

27

22.2%

33.3%


Away
12

2

2

8

8

36

16.7%

22.2%


Hampden
4

1

0

3





25.0%




Aberdeen
6

3

0

3

9

18

50.0%

50.0%


Celtic
5

0

3

2

3

15

0.0%

20.0%


Rangers
7

0

1

6

1

21

0.0%

4.8%


Hearts
4

1

1

2

4

9

25.0%

44.4%















We don't have a gods given right to beat anyone, but Hampden is disappointing.

Hearts is pretty even.

Celtc and Sevco need their massive budgets taken into account, and Sevco need their dodgy decisions as well.

[90274]

So that's now 17 points from 66 and a point % of 25.7% v Rangers Celtic Hearts Aberdeen.

13 points from 30 v Hearts and Aberdeen, a point % of 43.3%.

[matty_f]

If there’s one positive from today, it’s that Aberdeen are back in the big game chat.

[hibsbollah]

If there’s one positive from today, it’s that Aberdeen are back in the big game chat.

St Johnstone more or less biggly than Aberdeen? Toughie…

[Perfect Hatrick]

Similarly, analysis of JR in games v Hearts Aberdeen Rangers Celtic and at Hampden.






P

W

D

L

Pts

A Pts

W%

Pts%


Overall
25

5

5

15

17

63

20.0%

27.0%


Home
9

2

3

4

9

27

22.2%

33.3%


Away
12

2

2

8

8

36

16.7%

22.2%


Hampden
4

1

0

3





25.0%




Aberdeen
6

3

0

3

9

18

50.0%

50.0%


Celtic
5

0

3

2

3

15

0.0%

20.0%


Rangers
7

0

1

6

1

21

0.0%

4.8%


Hearts
4

1

1

2

4

9

25.0%

44.4%














After todays result that’s Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and ‘Hampden’ all got a better record against us than we have against them under Ross.

For all people try to muddy the waters regarding big games, these are the teams the fans really want to beat and Aberdeen and Hearts are the teams we should be competing with. Celtic and Rangers I think people can accept we won’t have a better record than but I think folk expect it to be closer. Hearts and Aberdeen though is very poor, especially when Hearts got relegated and then played in the Championship during 3 quarters of our games against them. The Hampden record is nothing short of abysmal.

[ancient hibee]

[QUOTE=90274;6728633]Similarly, analysis of JR in games v Hearts Aberdeen Rangers Celtic and at Hampden.






P

W

D

L

Pts

A Pts

W%

Pts%


Overall
25

5

5

15

17

63

20.0%

27.0%


Home
9

2

3

4

9

27

22.2%

33.3%


Away
12

2

2

8

8

36

16.7%

22.2%


Hampden
4

1

0

3





25.0%




Aberdeen
6

3

0

3

9

18

50.0%

50.0%


Celtic
5

0

3

2

3

15

0.0%

20.0%


Rangers
7

0

1

6

1

21

0.0%

4.8%


Hearts
4

1

1

2

4

9

25.0%

44.4%













[/
QUOTE]
Would be interesting to compare this table with the same number of games prior to Ross.
Incidentally our home league record this season in no worse than Hearts.

[Keith_M]

We have Celtc at ER this week, so a decent chance to improve our home record.

[90274]

P W D L Pts A Pts W% Pts%
Overall 27 5 5 17 17 69 18.5% 24.6%
Home 10 2 3 5 9 30 20.0% 30.0%
Away 13 2 2 9 8 36 16.7% 22.2%
Hampden 4 1 0 3 25.0%
Aberdeen 7 3 0 4 9 21 42.9% 42.9%
Celtic 6 0 3 3 3 18 0.0% 16.7%
Rangers 7 0 1 6 1 21 0.0% 4.8%
Hearts 4 1 1 2 4 9 25.% 44.4%