Tax avoidance

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk

Anyone following the Pandora Papers story on widespread tax avoidance? Billions of dollars of personal wealth siphoned away in the British Virgin Islands, mostly legally. Major figures named include Putin, Kenyatta of Kenya, the Czech prime minister (currently in the middle of an election, Tony Blair and the King of Jordan.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk

Anyone following the Pandora Papers story on widespread tax avoidance? Billions of dollars of personal wealth siphoned away in the British Virgin Islands, mostly legally. Major figures named include Putin, Kenyatta of Kenya, the Czech prime minister (currently in the middle of an election, Tony Blair and the King of Jordan.

Nothing will come of it.


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[Kato]

Nothing will come of it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey will do the usual and say its time to clamp down before they do actually set about doing nothing.


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[Ozyhibby]

They will do the usual and say its time to clamp down before they do actually set about doing nothing.


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Yip. All this talk of offshoring etc is so misleading. All this stuff happens in London. It’s us that are doing it. We are the bad guys in this story.


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[Jack]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk

Anyone following the Pandora Papers story on widespread tax avoidance? Billions of dollars of personal wealth siphoned away in the British Virgin Islands, mostly legally. Major figures named include Putin, Kenyatta of Kenya, the Czech prime minister (currently in the middle of an election, Tony Blair and the King of Jordan.

As you say, mostly legally.

So unless there's a change to the laws of various countries, including the UK, there's nothing can be done.

There's plenty dodgy dealings going on in the UK that are open secrets that need highlighted and addressed.

[Kato]

Yip. All this talk of offshoring etc is so misleading. All this stuff happens in London. It’s us that are doing it. We are the bad guys in this story.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's a handy set-up. The Queen, because she gets to wear a metal hat, owns a lot of the islands used to store their loot.

The City of London, which itself operates outwith UK law, is the conduit for the loot to get to the islands.

The looters decry anyone who dares criticise even the idea of the lady with metal hat owning these places. Given the booty available it's understandable.

Why anyone poor or struggling sticks up for this system is beyond me. Maybe they like getting robbed.

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[Smartie]

Tony Blair is certainly blotting his copy book.

For a man who promised so much to end up with his legacy being one of a warmonger and tax hypocrite...

[hibsbollah]

As you say, mostly legally.

So unless there's a change to the laws of various countries, including the UK, there's nothing can be done.

There's plenty dodgy dealings going on in the UK that are open secrets that need highlighted and addressed.

I think bringing it to the public’s attention is important, even if no laws are being broken.

We are living under the expectation that everyone should pay an equal contribution to society, and low and middle earners (the 98%, loosely) all contribute and the top 2% contribute slightly more based on progressive taxation. When we discover that the top 2% actually pay less or in some cases nothing, it breaks a unwritten contract that underpins the whole thing. Why should we pay taxes when the royal family avoids paying it? The supposed moral guardians? Or Blair saving a third of a million in stamp duty when we can’t do the same? And the legalestablishment is equally complicit. It’s essentially the rich plundering from the nations coffers. I think it’s massively interesting and needs talked about.

[Ozyhibby]

I think bringing it to the public’s attention is important, even if no laws are being broken.

We are living under the expectation that everyone should pay an equal contribution to society, and low and middle earners (the 98%, loosely) all contribute and the top 2% contribute slightly more based on progressive taxation. When we discover that the top 2% actually pay less or in some cases nothing, it breaks a unwritten contract that underpins the whole thing. Why should we pay taxes when the royal family avoids paying it? The supposed moral guardians? Or Blair saving a third of a million in stamp duty when we can’t do the same? And the legalestablishment is equally complicit. It’s essentially the rich plundering from the nations coffers. I think it’s massively interesting and needs talked about.

Has the UK ever been about that though? We saw all this with the Panama and Paradise papers and everyone just shrugged their shoulders and carried on as normal. I doubt it will be any different this time around. The Tories will still comfortably win the next election.


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[Kato]

As you say, mostly legally.

So unless there's a change to the laws of various countries, including the UK, there's nothing can be done.

There's plenty dodgy dealings going on in the UK that are open secrets that need highlighted and addressed.It's not legal by accident. As easily as the laws that allow it to happen a law can be made to curb/stop it.

People shrug their shoulders because it's legal forgetting that it is those who profit that enacted the laws allowing it.

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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk

Anyone following the Pandora Papers story on widespread tax avoidance? Billions of dollars of personal wealth siphoned away in the British Virgin Islands, mostly legally. Major figures named include Putin, Kenyatta of Kenya, the Czech prime minister (currently in the middle of an election, Tony Blair and the King of Jordan.

Normal reaction.

[Kato]

There is more to come daily this week on these revelations. The Blair one, however slimy it is, will look like chicken feed.

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[Jack]

It's not legal by accident. As easily as the laws that allow it to happen a law can be made to curb/stop it.

People shrug their shoulders because it's legal forgetting that it is those who profit that enacted the laws allowing it.

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As a former reader of Private Eye there's been billions of legalised abuse over decades in the UK. Westminster doesn't seem to care what people think.

[Berwickhibby]

I think bringing it to the public’s attention is important, even if no laws are being broken.

We are living under the expectation that everyone should pay an equal contribution to society, and low and middle earners (the 98%, loosely) all contribute and the top 2% contribute slightly more based on progressive taxation. When we discover that the top 2% actually pay less or in some cases nothing, it breaks a unwritten contract that underpins the whole thing. Why should we pay taxes when the royal family avoids paying it? The supposed moral guardians? Or Blair saving a third of a million in stamp duty when we can’t do the same? And the legalestablishment is equally complicit. It’s essentially the rich plundering from the nations coffers. I think it’s massively interesting and needs talked about.

But the Royals including the queen does pay income and other taxes but let's not allow the truth get in the way on a Royals moan https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance

[Kato]

But the Royals including the queen does pay income and other taxes but let's not allow the truth get in the way on a Royals moan https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidanceIt's not the royals per se, its the set-up which allows for the kleptocracy, she is at the head of that whether it be figuratively or actually.

We are all her subjects but some are subjected to more stringent taxes than others.

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[Berwickhibby]

It's not the royals per se, its the set-up which allows for the kleptocracy, she is at the head of that whether it be figuratively or actually.

We are all her subjects but some are subjected to more stringent taxes than others.

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Not disagreeing with your point about the rich avoiding tax and stashing their cash out of reach but a least be factual with statements

[Future17]

But the Royals including the queen does pay income and other taxes but let's not allow the truth get in the way on a Royals moan https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance

On her income from our money you mean? :rolleyes:

[Berwickhibby]

On her income from our money you mean? :rolleyes:

Nope …, not in my opinion

[cabbageandribs1875]

aaah the Queen, sweet little old lady that she is, protector of paedophiles and sexual deviants alike....wonderful woman


likes to dabble in politics a bit

[hibsbollah]

But the Royals including the queen does pay income and other taxes but let's not allow the truth get in the way on a Royals moan https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance/sovereign-grant-act-2011-guidance

I didn’t say she pays NO taxes, I said she (in the form of the Crown Estate) avoids some taxes. Which is true.

Instead of being pedantic, why don’t you give your opinion? Personally I think wealth disparity is the great issue of our time and something you’d expect a political opposition to highlight and campaign about.

[He's here!]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk

Anyone following the Pandora Papers story on widespread tax avoidance? Billions of dollars of personal wealth siphoned away in the British Virgin Islands, mostly legally. Major figures named include Putin, Kenyatta of Kenya, the Czech prime minister (currently in the middle of an election, Tony Blair and the King of Jordan.

I'm not getting why this particular transaction is grabbing the headlines. As I understand it he and his wife have done nothing wrong, unless you count being wealthy enough to buy a company that owned the property they wanted - and thus (legally) avoid some stamp duty.

In fact, most of the revelations the BBC are releasing in 'bombshell' fashion don't appear to hold much shock value when you actually read what's involved. I'm guessing there's more to come but thus far there doesn't appear to be any illegality. It's hardly going to stun anyone to learn that crazily wealthy people use tax loopholes to protect/hide their true assets. You might question the ethics but (as you say) in most cases it's not breaking any laws as they stand.

[Tyler Durden]

Nothing will change on this and the majority of the public simply don't understand it, or care enough to try.

The problem is that there is a revolving door between Government / the regulator / the big consultants and lobbyists who influence the laws and the media. The establishment basically.

As new laws come into play - beneficial owner registers for example - new loopholes will be found and the cycle continues. I think people in general are less interested in any kind of ethical code these days. They lose interest and move onto the next scandal for a few days.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not getting why this particular transaction is grabbing the headlines. As I understand it he and his wife have done nothing wrong, unless you count being wealthy enough to buy a company that owned the property they wanted - and thus (legally) avoid some stamp duty.

In fact, most of the revelations the BBC are releasing in 'bombshell' fashion don't appear to hold much shock value when you actually read what's involved. I'm guessing there's more to come but thus far there doesn't appear to be any illegality. It's hardly going to stun anyone to learn that crazily wealthy people use tax loopholes to protect/hide their true assets. You might question the ethics but (as you say) in most cases it's not breaking any laws as they stand.

The scandal is that no laws have been broken.


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[Bristolhibby]

It's a handy set-up. The Queen, because she gets to wear a metal hat, owns a lot of the islands used to store their loot.

The City of London, which itself operates outwith UK law, is the conduit for the loot to get to the islands.

The looters decry anyone who dares criticise even the idea of the lady with metal hat owning these places. Given the booty available it's understandable.

Why anyone poor or struggling sticks up for this system is beyond me. Maybe they like getting robbed.

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Some more absurdity from history. Always makes me laugh.

https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY

J

[Berwickhibby]

I didn’t say she pays NO taxes, I said she (in the form of the Crown Estate) avoids some taxes. Which is true.

Instead of being pedantic, why don’t you give your opinion? Personally I think wealth disparity is the great issue of our time and something you’d expect a political opposition to highlight and campaign about.

Your statement says she avoids paying tax... the Crown estate earnings go straight to the treasury from which the Royals receives a percentage paid as the Royal purse. The rich and businesses who pay no tax due to legal loopholes is scandalous, not helped by having a Tory Government who aid their Etonian chums by overlooking their financial wrongdoings. Things need to change and in the words of the late Joe Srummer we need to ask for some Wealth distribution.

[He's here!]

The scandal is that no laws have been broken.


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When offshore accounts are used to cover up the proceeds of criminality then I understand the need for exposure. I'm just not getting why anyone would be outraged at some of the relatively unremarkable 'revelations' like that involving Blair and his wife.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not getting why this particular transaction is grabbing the headlines. As I understand it he and his wife have done nothing wrong, unless you count being wealthy enough to buy a company that owned the property they wanted - and thus (legally) avoid some stamp duty.

In fact, most of the revelations the BBC are releasing in 'bombshell' fashion don't appear to hold much shock value when you actually read what's involved. I'm guessing there's more to come but thus far there doesn't appear to be any illegality. It's hardly going to stun anyone to learn that crazily wealthy people use tax loopholes to protect/hide their true assets. You might question the ethics but (as you say) in most cases it's not breaking any laws as they stand.

I used to work for Tony Blair, indirectly, when I was a civil servant. The whole status ethos of his Governments project, which I agreed with at the time, was public spending to promote equality, and going after tax avoidance was a key objective. Using a British Virgin Islands tax dodge to avoid paying stamp duty on his OWN vast personal wealth he’s amassed on the public speaking circuit is therefore hypocritical. £350,000 trains a lot of nurses and care workers. Tax avoidance isn’t theft, but watch out for hypocrites.

[Kato]

I'm not getting why this particular transaction is grabbing the headlines.


The hypocrisy given his "aims" around tax-avoidance before the Lady with the metal hat said it was OK for him to be Prime Minister.


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[Kato]

Not disagreeing with your point about the rich avoiding tax and stashing their cash out of reach but a least be factual with statementsWhat's not factual in my post?

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[Berwickhibby]

What's not factual in my post?

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Nothing in yours, I should have been clearer I meant the OP’s quote about Royals avoiding paying tax

[Pretty Boy]

It's not legal by accident. As easily as the laws that allow it to happen a law can be made to curb/stop it.

People shrug their shoulders because it's legal forgetting that it is those who profit that enacted the laws allowing it.

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The people who advise the lawmakers are the same ones who charge private clients to advise them how to circumvent said laws.

It's a total racket.

[Kato]

Nothing in yours, I should have been clearer I meant the OP’s quote about Royals avoiding paying tax

They pay some. I'm willing to bet that they don't pay all they are due.

[Kato]

It's a total racket.

Of course it is. "Legal" under the kleptocracy is a very vague term.

[hibsbollah]

Uncle Rishi says tax avoidance ‘should not be a source of shame’ at Tory conference. Not surprising since he’s a millionaire and his wife is a billionaire. Not sure where levelling up fits into this :dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

Uncle Rishi says tax avoidance ‘should not be a source of shame’ at Tory conference. Not surprising since he’s a millionaire and his wife is a billionaire. Not sure where levelling up fits into this :dunno:

By the end of the pandemic cuddly Rishi and his wife will both be billionaires?

[hibsbollah]

By the end of the pandemic cuddly Rishi and his wife will both be billionaires?

Sometimes people are so rich it’s hard to count. It’s fascinating to me, we used to be told by Peter Mandelson et al that it was absolutely fine to become filthy rich because these people paid taxes to fund society’s gains. Now we’re being told that it’s absolutely fine to become filthy rich AND not pay your taxes, by stealing from the state, because… well, actually he left the reason out why out of his speech. I still don’t know why Rishi thinks that’s OK.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sometimes people are so rich it’s hard to count. It’s fascinating to me, we used to be told by Peter Mandelson et al that it was absolutely fine to become filthy rich because these people paid taxes to fund society’s gains. Now we’re being told that it’s absolutely fine to become filthy rich AND not pay your taxes, by stealing from the state, because… well, actually he left the reason out why out of his speech. I still don’t know why Rishi thinks that’s OK.

You go with what you know. We're all a product of our upbringing and most of our moral makeup is formed by the values we witnessed as children. Rishi probably can't get his head around the idea that his kind of people should be treated the same as us plebs.

[Keith_M]

The scandal is that no laws have been broken.


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:agree:


It's the same kind of scandal that Amazon, Starbucks and the like are continually allowed to avoid paying Corporation Tax despite earning billions every year.

"Only the little people pay taxes"

[Pretty Boy]

Sometimes people are so rich it’s hard to count. It’s fascinating to me, we used to be told by Peter Mandelson et al that it was absolutely fine to become filthy rich because these people paid taxes to fund society’s gains. Now we’re being told that it’s absolutely fine to become filthy rich AND not pay your taxes, by stealing from the state, because… well, actually he left the reason out why out of his speech. I still don’t know why Rishi thinks that’s OK.

I remember watching a Thatcher speech in the Commons from sometime in the mid to late 80s. She had been questioned about why under her the rich kept getting richer and the wealth gap was growing.

She argued that it didn't matter if the wealth gap was growing and the rich were getting richer as long as the poor were getting richer as well, albeit at a slower rate. She said using the wealth gap as a measure created a false narrative. I thought that was bollocks then and I think it's the same now. In our society of theoretical trickle down economics and wealth creators if the rich are getting richer and the wealth gap is growing then someone is suffering. Perhaps not in the pay packet they take home, although I have made my feelings clear on that on the Labour thread, but through cuts to vital services and basic provisions.

For as long as the super wealthy can hide money legally then we will never have the kind of state infrastructure everyone should desire. It can be dressed up in any way but the truth is it boils down to greed. Tony Blair can pay £300K in tax and it would make no difference to his lifestyle, same goes for other people in that wealth bracket and a fair few a hell of a lot wealthier than him as well. Their reluctance to do their bit means people who really need £20 a week are told they can't have it. The cruellest part is the govt have convinced people earning £25K a year that someone earning minimum wage topped up with UC is their enemy rather than tax avoiding billionaires. It's evil genius really.

[lapsedhibee]

The cruellest part is the govt have convinced people earning £25K a year that someone earning minimum wage topped up with UC is their enemy rather than tax avoiding billionaires. It's evil genius really.

:agree: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eks7YzDUYAAgIFE?format=jpg&name=small

[hibsbollah]

I remember watching a Thatcher speech in the Commons from sometime in the mid to late 80s. She had been questioned about why under her the rich kept getting richer and the wealth gap was growing.

She argued that it didn't matter if the wealth gap was growing and the rich were getting richer as long as the poor were getting richer as well, albeit at a slower rate. She said using the wealth gap as a measure created a false narrative. I thought that was bollocks then and I think it's the same now. In our society of theoretical trickle down economics and wealth creators if the rich are getting richer and the wealth gap is growing then someone is suffering. Perhaps not in the pay packet they take home, although I have made my feelings clear on that on the Labour thread, but through cuts to vital services and basic provisions.

For as long as the super wealthy can hide money legally then we will never have the kind of state infrastructure everyone should desire. It can be dressed up in any way but the truth is it boils down to greed. Tony Blair can pay £300K in tax and it would make no difference to his lifestyle, same goes for other people in that wealth bracket and a fair few a hell of a lot wealthier than him as well. Their reluctance to do their bit means people who really need £20 a week are told they can't have it. The cruellest part is the govt have convinced people earning £25K a year that someone earning minimum wage topped up with UC is their enemy rather than tax avoiding billionaires. It's evil genius really.

You sound like a socialist :faf: I recall you saying you were put off by socialist politics by the people you met when you were a student. Maybe it’s time to give it another try?

[Ozyhibby]

Seems to have died a death already?


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[Peevemor]

Seems to have died a death already?

Nobody's surprised any more.

[Kato]

No traction at all.

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[Ozyhibby]

No traction at all.

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No new revelations either. Tony Blair avoided stamp duty seems to be it?


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[Ozyhibby]

Maybe not a total damp squib.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/11/czech-president-milos-zeman-still-in-hospital-andrej-babis-election-defeat?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1633965170


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[Kato]

No new revelations either. Tony Blair avoided stamp duty seems to be it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk...and that the Tory Party's funding is more or less entirely from Russia.

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[Keith_M]

...and that the Tory Party's funding is more or less entirely from Russia.

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Aren't we still awaiting the release of the report on Russian interference in UK elections?

The Tory Party are the ones blocking it -- The Tory party are the ones benefiting from Russian bribes... sorry... 'donations'.


Ah, but at least it's good old British corruption.