Environmentalists blocking roads

[AugustaHibs]

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1440217388025139200?s=21


It seems to be a daily occurrence that these idiots are doing this.

Only a matter of time before a driver just doesn’t stop.

[Santa Cruz]

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1440217388025139200?s=21


It seems to be a daily occurrence that these idiots are doing this.

Only a matter of time before a driver just doesn’t stop.

Aye, their protests don't change anything, they risk lives. They have the right to protest just not in a place that risks lives of people who may well agree with some of the issues they campaign for. This story is shocking.

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/19591197.mum-paralysed-stroke-m25-protest-delayed-hospital-trip/

[AugustaHibs]

A lady died last week because of this. She had taken a stroke

Yeah I heard about a woman who endded up paralysed as it took 6 hours to get to hospital.

Doctors said if she’d have got there within 90 minutes (which was easily doable without the road blocks) there would have been minimal lasting damage.

[Santa Cruz]

Yeah I heard about a woman who endded up paralysed as it took 6 hours to get to hospital.

Doctors said if she’d have got there within 90 minutes (which was easily doable without the road blocks) there would have been minimal lasting damage.

Sorry, I edited my post. Thankfully she didn't die but she will take a long time to recover (I'm hoping she does, it's not a given)

[AugustaHibs]

Sorry, I edited my post. Thankfully she didn't die but she will take a long time to recover (I'm hoping she does, it's not a given)

It’s only a matter of time before a motorist who’s already at the end of their tether just doesn’t hit the brakes

[Santa Cruz]

It’s only a matter of time before a motorist who’s already at the end of their tether just doesn’t hit the brakes

....and they end up jailed, while the protesters causing a risk to life get of with a fine at best. They should take their protests to WM and disrupt their day to day lives if they want to hold on to any public support.

[Since90+2]

Automatic 12 month jail time with no chance of early release for anyone doing this. If they do it again it doubles to 24 months.

[Sir David Gray]

Saw this earlier, absolute imbeciles.

Must have been terrifying for these drivers and the police officers trying to stop them.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I wouldn't be so hard on them. Non-violent direct action has been one tactic used by almost any protest movement you care to mention: Chartists, Suffragettes, American Civil Rights, anti-Apartheid, anti-war movements, and all the rest. I understand the frustration of the drivers who are blocked, but they are protesting for a rather important cause: the survival of the planet. Of course blocking one road doesn't change things, but it gets headlines and puts the issue in the public domain. It's an inconvenience for those who are in traffic, but it has to be a positive that there are people in society sufficiently motivated to care, even if their tactics are controversial. I don't think criminal records would be helpful.

[hibsbollah]

I wouldn't be so hard on them. Non-violent direct action has been one tactic used by almost any protest movement you care to mention: Chartists, Suffragettes, American Civil Rights, anti-Apartheid, anti-war movements, and all the rest. I understand the frustration of the drivers who are blocked, but they are protesting for a rather important cause: the survival of the planet. Of course blocking one road doesn't change things, but it gets headlines and puts the issue in the public domain. It's an inconvenience for those who are in traffic, but it has to be a positive that there are people in society sufficiently motivated to care, even if their tactics are controversial. I don't think criminal records would be helpful.

:agree:

[Stairway 2 7]

I wouldn't be so hard on them. Non-violent direct action has been one tactic used by almost any protest movement you care to mention: Chartists, Suffragettes, American Civil Rights, anti-Apartheid, anti-war movements, and all the rest. I understand the frustration of the drivers who are blocked, but they are protesting for a rather important cause: the survival of the planet. Of course blocking one road doesn't change things, but it gets headlines and puts the issue in the public domain. It's an inconvenience for those who are in traffic, but it has to be a positive that there are people in society sufficiently motivated to care, even if their tactics are controversial. I don't think criminal records would be helpful.

Bringing anger against them won't help, I reckon the majority are just annoyed by this. If they stop a city street its causes a nuisance but emergency services can go a different way. Blocking a motorway and very publicly causing a woman to be paralysed, just makes people think they are ********s.

[hibsbollah]

Bringing anger against them won't help, I reckon the majority are just annoyed by this. If they stop a city street its causes a nuisance but emergency services can go a different way. Blocking a motorway and very publicly causing a woman to be paralysed, just makes people think they are ********s.

‘Very publicly causing a woman to be paralyzed’.

Nobody ‘caused’ her paralysis. The newspapers that publish headlines like those would print headlines like those regardless of the actual circumstances. These people aren’t protesting because they’re bored or looking for attention. You may as well blame the transport minister for the woman’s paralysis. Or Exxon for allowing climate catastrophe. Or God.

[Stairway 2 7]

‘Very publicly causing a woman to be paralyzed’.

Nobody ‘caused’ her paralysis. The newspapers that publish headlines like those would print headlines like those regardless of the actual circumstances. These people aren’t protesting because they’re bored or looking for attention. You may as well blame the transport minister for the woman’s paralysis. Or Exxon for allowing climate catastrophe. Or God.

Utter nonsense

[Hibernia&Alba]

Bringing anger against them won't help, I reckon the majority are just annoyed by this. If they stop a city street its causes a nuisance but emergency services can go a different way. Blocking a motorway and very publicly causing a woman to be paralysed, just makes people think they are ********s.

If an ambulance was blocked, that's an unforeseen tragedy, no question. But it's a peaceful protest, one not trying to harm people or property. It will be inconvenient for motorists, but they are protesting for a worthy cause. Much better sitting in the road than throwing petrol bombs.

[Jones28]

Bringing anger against them won't help, I reckon the majority are just annoyed by this. If they stop a city street its causes a nuisance but emergency services can go a different way. Blocking a motorway and very publicly causing a woman to be paralysed, just makes people think they are ********s.

Anyone can see they didn’t deliberately cause the paralysis of that poor woman.

The whole point is to maximise the disruption to draw attention to it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Anyone can see they didn’t deliberately cause the paralysis of that poor woman.

The whole point is to maximise the disruption to draw attention to it.

Of course they didn't deliberately but if you block a motorway leaving the people on it no way to move, disasters will obviously happen. They are to blame simple as, stupidity. If I was blocked in an ambulance with a loved one and with no way to turn due to them, they would be getting jorg albertzed off the road. I think their cause is obviously unbelievably important but use your heads, block city streets so you don't block only way of access. If not you are to blame for what happens on ambulances or if fire engines can't get to a fire.

[calumhibee1]

Of course they didn't deliberately but if you block a motorway leaving the people on it no way to move, disasters will obviously happen. They are to blame simple as, stupidity. If I was blocked in an ambulance with a loved one and with no way to turn due to them, they would be getting jorg albertzed off the road. I think their cause is obviously unbelievably important but use your heads, block city streets so you don't block only way of access. If not you are to blame for what happens on ambulances or if fire engines can't get to a fire.

:agree:

They didn’t deliberately cause this particular woman to end up paralysed but closing a motorway for 6 hours means it’s probably highly likely that you’ll catch an emergency vehicle in it. An emergency vehicle which by its very nature will have someone in desperate need of getting to a hospital in the back of it.

Saying they didn’t cause it is a bit like me doing 155mph down Ferry Road, hitting a child and claiming I didn’t cause it because I didn’t mean it or I didn’t know the child was going to be there.

These people have 100% caused this. ****ing idiots.

[Jack]

I wonder how many of them are just 'professional/full time' protesters?

[AugustaHibs]

Most of these folk are idiot middle class students who are being funded by bank of mummy and daddy and have never worked a day in their life.

When I was in London recently I bumped into some of the extinction rebellion folk and I hope it’s the first and last time. Horrific.

[hibsbollah]

Of course they didn't deliberately but if you block a motorway leaving the people on it no way to move, disasters will obviously happen. They are to blame simple as, stupidity. If I was blocked in an ambulance with a loved one and with no way to turn due to them, they would be getting jorg albertzed off the road. I think their cause is obviously unbelievably important but use your heads, block city streets so you don't block only way of access. If not you are to blame for what happens on ambulances or if fire engines can't get to a fire.

You could use this logic to criticise or ban or outlaw any form of public protest. What about strikes? Postal strikes could cause the late return of a stool sample which could result in a death from late diagnosis of bowel cancer. The strike isn’t the ‘cause’ of the death, The whole point of protest is to cause disruption.

And judging by all the subtle and not so subtle threats on here and elsewhere to plough down protestors, I’d say the protestors were far more brave than selfish. Some folk just don’t like them and never wil because of what they represent.

Change things at the ballot box :faf:

[hibsbollah]

Most of these folk are idiot middle class students who are being funded by bank of mummy and daddy and have never worked a day in their life.

When I was in London recently I bumped into some of the extinction rebellion folk and I hope it’s the first and last time. Horrific.

This is the root of it. You just don’t like the way they look and what they represent.

[calumhibee1]

You could use this logic to criticise or ban or outlaw any form of public protest. What about strikes? Postal strikes could cause the late return of a stool sample which could result in a death from late diagnosis of bowel cancer. The strike isn’t the ‘cause’ of the death, The whole point of protest is to cause disruption.

And judging by all the subtle and not so subtle threats on here and elsewhere to plough down protestors, I’d say the protestors were far more brave than selfish. Some folk just don’t like them and never wil because of what they represent.

Change things at the ballot box :faf:

The difference between a posted stool sample and the paralysed lady who had the stroke is the urgency of each situation.

You don’t need to catch bowel cancer within a 2 day first class post target. If you did then you’d go and drop the sample off yourself rather than post it as you’d expect to be at the mercy of the postal system or you’d use a courier etc. If your sample was already in the postal system then you could provide another sample. There’s more than one way to get a stool sample there, more than one stool sample could be provided and it doesn’t need to be delivered with the same level of urgency.

This lady certainly needed immediate medical attention at a hospital and she didn’t get it because of these morons. She had no other way of getting to the hospital and the paramedics couldn’t reasonably have envisaged being stuck in 6 hours of traffic because a bunch of ********s went and sat in the middle of the road.

These people are the reason this woman is now paralysed. ****bags.

[hibsbollah]

The difference between a posted stool sample and the paralysed lady who had the stroke is the urgency of each situation.

You don’t need to catch bowel cancer within a 2 day first class post target. If you did then you’d go and drop the sample off yourself rather than post it as you’d expect to be at the mercy of the postal system or you’d use a courier etc. If your sample was already in the postal system then you could provide another sample. There’s more than one way to get a stool sample there, more than one stool sample could be provided and it doesn’t need to be delivered with the same level of urgency.

This lady certainly needed immediate medical attention at a hospital and she didn’t get it because of these morons. She had no other way of getting to the hospital and the paramedics couldn’t reasonably have envisaged being stuck in 6 hours of traffic because a bunch of ********s went and sat in the middle of the road.

These people are the reason this woman is now paralysed. ****bags.

Why did they sit in the middle of the road? Was it just a random decision or was there something that motivated it?

[lapsedhibee]

Most of these folk are idiot middle class students who are being funded by bank of mummy and daddy and have never worked a day in their life.


Evan Davies interviewed a protester on R4 yesterday evening and described him as a doctor. Davies completely failed to ask him whether he was being funded by his mummy or daddy though.

[AugustaHibs]

Evan Davies interviewed a protester on R4 yesterday evening and described him as a doctor. Davies completely failed to ask him whether he was being funded by his mummy or daddy though.

First word of my post..

[lapsedhibee]

First word of my post..

What is the point of your post? That people should not protest unless they are working class and in full time employment? :dunno:

[calumhibee1]

Why did they sit in the middle of the road? Was it just a random decision or was there something that motivated it?

That’s irrelevant to the fact they’ve caused a woman to end up paralysed.

There is other ways to protest. They chose to block off a motorway regardless of the consequences. Anyone with half a brain would know that closing a motorway for 6 hours would carry a high chance of catching emergency vehicles with critically ill patients in them who would then have no way of getting out of the situation

That unfortunate lady and the paramedics never got to make a choice because of these idiots and now she’s paralysed.

[hibsbollah]

What is the point of your post? That people should not protest unless they are working class and in full time employment? :dunno:

I disagreed with every word of Discodoidges post, but there’s a truth behind it-that ever since that Swampy in the 90s, environmental campaigners have been portrayed as smelly hippies or anarchists who want to smash things up. It’s not surprising you don’t see many smartly dressed/working class/professional males/football fans on these protests because we’re all tribal. It doesn’t matter that we’re all equally at risk from the climate catastrophe that is about to change all our lives forever while powerful lobby groups make sure the politicians don’t do anything meaningful to make things better. There was some talk a while ago about Hibs going carbon neutral, and also talk of linking up with the guy at Forest Green. More effort needs to be put into ‘mainstreaming’ the environmental movement.

[hibsbollah]

That’s irrelevant to the fact they’ve caused a woman to end up paralysed.

There is other ways to protest. They chose to block off a motorway regardless of the consequences. That unfortunate lady and the paramedics never got to make a choice because of them and now she’s paralysed.

The reason why they were there is irrelevant to the fact she was paralyzed?

[calumhibee1]

The reason why they were there is irrelevant to the fact she was paralyzed?

What they were protesting is irrelevant, absolutely.

It’s their actions whilst protesting that have caused this. What they were protesting didn’t matter, it could have been climate change, taxes or COVID restrictions. The way they chose to stage the protest caused this and it was clear as day there was a very high chance that this kind of thing would happen yet they went ahead with it anyway. Actions have consequences and their utterly stupid actions have caused a woman to end up paralysed.

Everyone who was there at the time blocking the traffic should be charged appropriately.

[AugustaHibs]

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said National Highways has been granted an injunction against protesters targeting the M25.

Good to hear, next they should be locked up if they try it again.

Surely the threat of being carted to the slammer in a petrol powered vehicle should be enough to put them off?

[calumhibee1]

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said National Highways has been granted an injunction against protesters targeting the M25.

Good to hear, next they should be locked up if they try it again.

Surely the threat of being carted to the slammer in a petrol powered vehicle should be enough to put them off?

They should be locked up anyway as I’d fully expect to be if I purposely blocked emergency vehicles on Queensferry road for example.

[Jones28]

Of course they didn't deliberately but if you block a motorway leaving the people on it no way to move, disasters will obviously happen. They are to blame simple as, stupidity. If I was blocked in an ambulance with a loved one and with no way to turn due to them, they would be getting jorg albertzed off the road. I think their cause is obviously unbelievably important but use your heads, block city streets so you don't block only way of access. If not you are to blame for what happens on ambulances or if fire engines can't get to a fire.

Block city streets, have the police corden the road off and direct traffic around you and minimise the disruption, and that’s the way to send a message.

You be as well writing to your MP for all the impact that would make. It’s deeply unfortunate and no one involved wanted this to happen. The group are trying to create the biggest noise around a particular issue. I don’t necessarily agree with their methods especially now they’re getting a lot more ballsy and going on to the actual motorway, but I can understand why they’re doing it like this.

[lapsedhibee]

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said National Highways has been granted an injunction against protesters targeting the M25.

Good to hear, next they should be locked up if they try it again.

Surely the threat of being carted to the slammer in a petrol powered vehicle should be enough to put them off?

The doctor interviewed by Evan Davies declared himself quite prepared to be jailed as a consequence of pursuing the cause he believes in. (The way he said it was a bit middle class though.)

[hibsbollah]

They should be locked up anyway as I’d fully expect to be if I purposely blocked emergency vehicles on Queensferry road for example.

Surely a much more appropriate punishment would be to set up some medieval stocks right at a quayside harbour. They’d eventually probably drown because of the rising sea waters but they should have thought about that.

[lord bunberry]

These people have a very valid cause to fight for and it’s one that most of the country is behind, but I absolutely hate them for the way they’re going about it. What they’re doing isn’t making any difference to policy makers, all that’s happening is legislation is being brought in to clamp down on them. I’m all for a bit of anarchy and civi disobedience, but you don’t achieve anything by pissing off the general public. Why don’t they try and occupy parliament or other government buildings?

[lapsedhibee]

These people have a very valid cause to fight for and it’s one that most of the country is behind, but I absolutely hate them for the way they’re going about it. What they’re doing isn’t making any difference to policy makers, all that’s happening is legislation is being brought in to clamp down on them. I’m all for a bit of anarchy and civi disobedience, but you don’t achieve anything by pissing off the general public. Why don’t they try and occupy parliament or other government buildings?

Because no-one would care if they did that.

[lord bunberry]

Because no-one would care if they did that.
I think that would get maximum publicity and plenty support as well.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that would get maximum publicity and plenty support as well.

It wouldn't really inconvenience anyone, though, which is part of the point of civil disobedience.

And it probably wouldn't result in a thread like this, which will be replicated throughout social media.

[calumhibee1]

Block city streets, have the police corden the road off and direct traffic around you and minimise the disruption, and that’s the way to send a message.

You be as well writing to your MP for all the impact that would make. It’s deeply unfortunate and no one involved wanted this to happen. The group are trying to create the biggest noise around a particular issue. I don’t necessarily agree with their methods especially now they’re getting a lot more ballsy and going on to the actual motorway, but I can understand why they’re doing it like this.

No one involved wanted it to happen? It didn’t take a genius to work out that this sort of thing had a high chance of happening yet they went ahead and done it anyway.

I’m sure folk caught speeding at 150mph don’t actually want to kill or cause serious injury to people, should we just let them off with it as well because they didn’t want it to happen and it was just an unfortunate consequence of their stupid decision?

And on top of that, they’ve had much more publicity off the back off the paralysis of this woman. I’m not as confident as you that they’ll have been desperate for something like this not to happen when that’s exactly what they aim to achieve from their protest- max publicity.

When your methods of protesting start causing people to die and/or suffer life changing injuries then you should be held accountable as you would in any other walk of life.

[calumhibee1]

Surely a much more appropriate punishment would be to set up some medieval stocks right at a quayside harbour. They’d eventually probably drown because of the rising sea waters but they should have thought about that.

What?

You can’t seriously be arguing that people that cause death and/or serious injury due to their decision to protest and the method of protest shouldn’t be punished?

[Jones28]

No one involved wanted it to happen? It didn’t take a genius to work out that this sort of thing had a high chance of happening yet they went ahead and done it anyway.

I’m sure folk caught speeding at 150mph don’t actually want to kill or cause serious injury to people, should we just let them off with it as well because they didn’t want it to happen and it was just an unfortunate consequence of their stupid decision?

And on top of that, they’ve had much more publicity off the back off the paralysis of this woman. I’m not as confident as you that they’ll have been desperate for something like this not to happen when that’s exactly what they aim to achieve from their protest- max publicity.

When your methods of protesting start causing people to die and/or suffer life changing injuries then you should be held accountable as you would in any other walk of life.

Thats an incredibly cynical viewpoint.

And you can’t seriously be equating someone speeding to excess with people engaging in civil disobedience?

[calumhibee1]

Thats an incredibly cynical viewpoint.

And you can’t seriously be equating someone speeding to excess with people engaging in civil disobedience?

When their method of displaying civil disobedience has such a high chance of causing death and/or serious injury then yes, I am. Closing down a motorway for 6 hours probably had a higher chance of ending badly than someone speeding to excess.

They’ll have known this was a potential consequence of their actions just as someone who excessively speeds in a car knows it. They went ahead and done it anyway. They showed no care for human life in that respect.

When does risking or potentially taking people’s lives stop being acceptable in the name of civil disobedience? Or because it’s civil disobedience is it always acceptable?

[heretoday]

It's very selfish and dangerous to do what they are doing.

[hibsbollah]

What?

You can’t seriously be arguing that people that cause death and/or serious injury due to their decision to protest and the method of protest shouldn’t be punished?

Chill the **** out. It was a joke.

[SChibs]

It's very selfish and dangerous to do what they are doing.

Is it selfish? These people are risking their lives and their freedom to fight for change that will benefit everyone. I'd argue that's selfless rather than selfish. I'd like to hear some ideas from people against the protests as to how they think it should be done? What would be a more effective method of getting everyone's attention and forcing change?

[Jones28]

When their method of displaying civil disobedience has such a high chance of causing death and/or serious injury then yes, I am. Closing down a motorway for 6 hours probably had a higher chance of ending badly than someone speeding to excess.

They’ll have known this was a potential consequence of their actions just as someone who excessively speeds in a car knows it. They went ahead and done it anyway. They showed no care for human life in that respect.

When does risking or potentially taking people’s lives stop being acceptable in the name of civil disobedience? Or because it’s civil disobedience is it always acceptable?

They show care for human life in their message and what they’re trying to achieve, equating with someone speeding which very rarely is done selflessly is just mad.

I’ve already acknowledged they are getting too extreme by actually going on to the carriageway, but the message has to be gotten across somehow - James O’Brien was asking people on the radio: what would you do?

[hibsbollah]

Is it selfish? These people are risking their lives and their freedom to fight for change that will benefit everyone. I'd argue that's selfless rather than selfish. I'd like to hear some ideas from people against the protests as to how they think it should be done? What would be a more effective method of getting everyone's attention and forcing change?

I’m sure putting a cross in a box against the names of establishment politicians (who have shown themselves happy to break the meager environmental promises they make in their manifesto as soon as they gain power) will be super effective :aok:

[lord bunberry]

It wouldn't really inconvenience anyone, though, which is part of the point of civil disobedience.

And it probably wouldn't result in a thread like this, which will be replicated throughout social media.
It would inconvenience politicians and they’re the ones they need to convince.

[calumhibee1]

They show care for human life in their message and what they’re trying to achieve, equating with someone speeding which very rarely is done selflessly is just mad.

I’ve already acknowledged they are getting too extreme by actually going on to the carriageway, but the message has to be gotten across somehow - James O’Brien was asking people on the radio: what would you do?

Showing care on one hand but not the other isn’t really acceptable though. A murderer could donate to a charity to eradicate poverty, I’m not sure that really matters all that much when you then make decisions that kill/threaten people’s life.

They may not have another great method of protesting (although I’d suggest protesting on a city centre street is effective and also means that an ambulance etc would be able to go a different route) but feeling like you don’t have another method as good as this one doesn’t make putting people’s life at risk acceptable. If the only way you can get your message across is by causing an innocent woman to end up paralysed then you just have to accept that you don’t currently have a way of getting your message across. Not just say **** it and go ahead with it anyway.

[Jones28]

Showing care on one hand but not the other isn’t really acceptable though. A murderer could donate to a charity to eradicate poverty, I’m not sure that really matters all that much when you then make decisions that kill/threaten people’s life.

They may not have another great method of protesting, but that doesn’t make putting people’s life at risk acceptable. If the only way you can get your message across is by causing an innocent woman to end up paralysed then you just have to accept that you don’t currently have a way of getting your method across. Not just go ahead with it anyway.

Another absolutely ludicrous comparison.

So just leave global warming then? Let’s just not bother? A woman was unintentionally paralysed which is a great shame and was never the intention of the groups actions so that means we put global warming on the back burner until we discover another method of protest.

[calumhibee1]

Another absolutely ludicrous comparison.

So just leave global warming then? Let’s just not bother? A woman was unintentionally paralysed which is a great shame and was never the intention of the groups actions so that means we put global warming on the back burner until we discover another method of protest.

It’s not a ridiculous comparison in the slightest. You’re desperately trying to absolve them of any blame for what happened to this woman because it wasn’t their intention and telling us how it was an accident when anyone with half a brain knows that you’re risking this sort of thing happening by closing a motorway for 6 hours where the vehicles then have no way of getting back out. These people are in no way just innocent folk who have stumbled upon what could only be described as a wholly unforeseen catastrophe, it was clear as day this had potential to happen.

As I said earlier, this isn’t about what they’re protesting about, it’s their method of protest. They’ve caused this woman to end up paralysed. That’s not an unfortunate innocent consequence, it was a blatantly obvious potential consequence which they’ve quite happily disregarded. Carry on protesting, just don’t cause life changing injuries or potentially death to people by doing it in an utterly moronic way.

[Santa Cruz]

Is it selfish? These people are risking their lives and their freedom to fight for change that will benefit everyone. I'd argue that's selfless rather than selfish. I'd like to hear some ideas from people against the protests as to how they think it should be done? What would be a more effective method of getting everyone's attention and forcing change?

Yes it is. If they are risking their lives or freedom, that's a conscious decision they have taken. People stuck in motorway blockages with medical conditions or going to job interviews because they need money to live their life don't get the luxury of choice the protester's have. They should form a human shield round various Parliament buildings and stay off the roads.

[calumhibee1]

Yes it is. If they are risking their lives or freedom, that's a conscious decision they have taken. People stuck in motorway blockages with medical conditions or going to job interviews because they need money to live their life don't get the luxury of choice the protester's have. They should form a human shield round various Parliament buildings and stay off the roads.

:agree:

If I had a family member who died on the way to hospital and a doctor said they would have lived had they got their quicker I’d be wanting these folk done for manslaughter.

It’s only by pure luck that this situation didn’t reach that conclusion and ‘only’ ended up with the lady paralysed. They are reckless idiots who have shown no care for human life unless it’s based around the message they’re pushing.

[Jones28]

It’s not a ridiculous comparison in the slightest. You’re desperately trying to absolve them of any blame for what happened to this woman because it wasn’t their intention and telling us how it was an accident when anyone with half a brain knows that you’re risking this sort of thing happening by closing a motorway for 6 hours where the vehicles then have no way of getting back out. These people are in no way just innocent folk who have stumbled upon what could only be described as a wholly unforeseen catastrophe, it was clear as day this had potential to happen.

As I said earlier, this isn’t about what they’re protesting about, it’s their method of protest. They’ve caused this woman to end up paralysed. That’s not an unfortunate innocent consequence, it was a blatantly obvious potential consequence which they’ve quite happily disregarded. Carry on protesting, just don’t cause life changing injuries or potentially death to people by doing it in an utterly moronic way.

Your comparing murders to protestors. When no one has died that is a ridiculous comparison. I’ll repeat, because it doesn’t seem to be going in, that I don’t agree with them blocking actual carriageways, it’s a step too far and someone will be killed.

We are not going to agree on this. I’ll call it a day there.

[calumhibee1]

Your comparing murders to protestors. When no one has died that is a ridiculous comparison. I’ll repeat, because it doesn’t seem to be going in, that I don’t agree with them blocking actual carriageways, it’s a step too far and someone will be killed.

We are not going to agree on this. I’ll call it a day there.

Nobody died through luck, not by design. That woman could quite easily have died in the ambulance, she had suffered a life threatening incident yet these folk continued to protest. These people had no control over whether the woman would live or die and I think we can safely say their protest wouldn’t have changed regardless of whether she was about to die or not.

[AugustaHibs]

Nobody died through luck, not by design. That woman could quite easily have died in the ambulance, she had suffered a life threatening incident yet these folk continued to protest. These people had no control over whether the woman would live or die and I think we can safely say their protest wouldn’t have changed regardless of whether she was about to die or not.

It wasn’t an ambulance unfortunately it was her sons car.

He said he watched her slip away whilst he sat in a traffic jam for 6 hours knowing there was nothing he could do.

These protesters are *****.

[Jones28]

Nobody died through luck, not by design. That woman could quite easily have died in the ambulance, she had suffered a life threatening incident yet these folk continued to protest. These people had no control over whether the woman would live or die and I think we can safely say their protest wouldn’t have changed regardless of whether she was about to die or not.

How the **** were they to know that, least of all when she was in the back of a car and not an ambulance?

You think of an emergency vehicle was trying to get through they wouldn’t have let it? They wouldn’t have had a choice because people would have moved them to let them through, and I would’ve been one of them.

[calumhibee1]

It wasn’t an ambulance unfortunately it was her sons car.

He said he watched her slip away whilst he sat in a traffic jam for 6 hours knowing there was nothing he could do.

These protesters are *****.

Apologies, so she did. Doesn’t change all that much though.

****bags with no regard for human life unless it revolves around the message they’re pushing swanning around putting innocent peoples lives in danger.

[Pretty Boy]

I think most of the protesters know they aren't going to win hearts and minds with their actions. I think deep down they even know that actions such as disrupting train services and blocking roads will turn some middle of the road types against their particular group.

It's keeping the climate crisis on the front pages, dominant on social media and on the TV news though. With COP26 coming up I think plenty politicians of many persuasions would prefer that wasn't the case. Job done.

[calumhibee1]

How the **** were they to know that, least of all when she was in the back of a car and not an ambulance?

You think of an emergency vehicle was trying to get through they wouldn’t have let it? They wouldn’t have had a choice because people would have moved them to let them through, and I would’ve been one of them.

How were they to know? Is that now an acceptable defence for putting people’s life in danger? :faf:

I’d have known I’d potentially be putting people’s life in danger if I blocked off a motorway for 6 hours. I’d suggest most people of sound mind would think about that as one of the first potential issues when thinking about shutting down a busy motorway for 6 hours. What if an ambulance needs through? What if a police car needs through? What if someone needs to get to hospital if their waters had burst and they were about to give birth? Imagine that happened and the baby didn’t make it because it was the joiner husband delivering the baby rather than a midwife? But still, how were these folk to know, eh?

If you think that an emergency vehicle is going to get through 6 hours of tailbacks on a motorway at all, never mind at an acceptable speed to serve their purpose properly then crack on.

[Jones28]

How were they to know? Is that now an acceptable defence for putting people’s life in danger? :faf:

I’d have known I’d potentially be putting people’s life in danger if I blocked off a motorway for 6 hours. I’d suggest most people of sound mind would think about that as one of the first potential issues when thinking about shutting down a busy motorway for 6 hours. What if an ambulance needs through? What if a police car needs through? What if someone needs to get to hospital if their waters had burst? But still, how were these folk to know, eh?

If you think that an emergency vehicle is going to get through 6 hours of tailbacks on a motorway at all, never mind at an acceptable speed to serve their purpose properly then crack on.

Right ok, well maybe they should just write to their MP eh? That’s what will make a difference and get a message across. Or maybe occupy parliament square like the the anti Brexit protestors have been doing for the last 5 years, that’s really helping as well. Or maybe they should prostest in a big ****ing field in the middle of nowhere so’s not to spoil anyone’s day?

I think an emergency vehicle would probably avoid a motorway after the news breaks that the motorway is being blocked by protestors. Yeah, I think that’s probably what would happen there.

[calumhibee1]

Right ok, well maybe they should just write to their MP eh? That’s what will make a difference and get a message across. Or maybe occupy parliament square like the the anti Brexit protestors have been doing for the last 5 years, that’s really helping as well. Or maybe they should prostest in a big ****ing field in the middle of nowhere so’s not to spoil anyone’s day?

I think an emergency vehicle would probably avoid a motorway after the news breaks that the motorway is being blocked by protestors. Yeah, I think that’s probably what would happen there.

So because these methods of protesting you have outlined aren’t as effective they can just escalate to risking life to try and get the effect they desire from their protests? Where do they go next when this protest inevitably doesn’t further their cause as far as they want it to? When have they gone too far? Causing a woman to end up paralysed seems to be acceptable collateral damage. Is death alright? As long as they’re getting their message across though eh, that’s all that really matters.

[Jones28]

So because these methods of protesting you have outlined aren’t as effective they can just escalate to risking life to try and get the effect they desire from their protests? Where do they go next when this protest inevitably doesn’t further their cause as far as they want it to? When have they gone too far? Causing a woman to end up paralysed seems to be acceptable collateral damage. Is death alright? As long as they’re getting their message across though eh, that’s all that really matters.

What do you suggest they do? These people are gluing themselves to a motorway so I would suggest they see their lives as expendable in the name of their cause.

[calumhibee1]

What do you suggest they do? These people are gluing themselves to a motorway so I would suggest they see their lives as expendable in the name of their cause.

Protest in a city centre street? They’d gain plenty of attention. Would it be as much as they’ve got here? Possibly not, but it can’t all be about gaining maximum attention and impact with no regard to consequences.

They can see their life as expendable all they want. That’s a wholly different thing to acting in a way that makes other people’s lives expendable. People who most likely wouldn’t agree that their life is expendable.

[Jones28]

Protest in a city centre street? They’d gain plenty of attention. Would it be as much as they’ve got here? Possibly not, but it can’t all be about gaining maximum attention and impact with no regard to consequences.

They can see their life as expendable all they want. That’s a wholly different thing to acting in a way that makes other people’s lives expendable. People who most likely wouldn’t agree that their life is expendable.

Like the million man March that saw the iraq war…avoided? No. Like I said already, I don’t agree with what they are doing by going on to motorways, people protest in city centres all the time and nobody hears **** all because it doesn’t impact on anyone other than taxi drivers.

It doesn’t work, it hasn’t worked for decades and it hasn’t made a difference. These groups are now taking extreme action because of an extreme situation. I’m not saying they should be totally commended and I’ve already acknowledged someone WILL be killed if they keep doing what they’re doing, but they are putting themselves at risk to try and force the governments hand.

[calumhibee1]

Like the million man March that saw the iraq war…avoided? No. Like I said already, I don’t agree with what they are doing by going on to motorways, people protest in city centres all the time and nobody hears **** all because it doesn’t impact on anyone other than taxi drivers.

It doesn’t work, it hasn’t worked for decades and it hasn’t made a difference. These groups are now taking extreme action because of an extreme situation. I’m not saying they should be totally commended and I’ve already acknowledged someone WILL be killed if they keep doing what they’re doing, but they are putting themselves at risk to try and force the governments hand.

Taxi drivers, the thousands in the city centre, the restaurants shops and bars that would all be impacted would all hear them. As would the news outlets and their customers that would pick it up. Again, just because you want it to reach MORE people, it doesn’t mean you can just start disregarding the risk you’re causing to others.

The fact it doesn’t work doesn’t mean they just get to up the ante to the point of risking people’s life. I don’t give a **** if they’re happy to die for their cause, I can guarantee that woman and her son didn’t see her as expendable for their cause yet she very nearly was.

[Jones28]

Taxi drivers, the thousands in the city centre, the restaurants shops and bars that would all be impacted would all hear them. As would the news outlets and their customers that would pick it up. Again, just because you want it to reach MORE people, it doesn’t mean you can just start disregarding the risk you’re causing to others.

The fact it doesn’t work doesn’t mean they just get to up the ante to the point of risking people’s life. I don’t give a **** if they’re happy to die for their cause, I can guarantee that woman and her son didn’t see her as expendable for their cause yet she very nearly was.

Nah, I definitely give up. Neither of us are going to change our minds.

[Northernhibee]

I wonder how the Suffragettes would have been portrayed by the modern media?

Disruption is a very effective way to get your proposal to the point of discussion. Seeing how major a catastrophe we are facing and how manageable their aim is (insulating Britain’s buildings) and they’re actually working off of scientific fact then I think they’re very brave people.

[Stairway 2 7]

Uks effect on climate change is an absolute tricle compared to China, Saudi Arabia and Russia. I think the protesters should try storm their embassies, would cause headlines around the world. They are always closing roads it's never at the front of the paper, well until they cause a poor woman to be paralysed

[calumhibee1]

Uks effect on climate change is an absolute tricle compared to China, Saudi Arabia and Russia. I think the protesters should try storm their embassies, would cause headlines around the world. They are always closing roads it's never at the front of the paper, well until they cause a poor woman to be paralysed

Worth it though. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

Uks effect on climate change is an absolute tricle compared to China, Saudi Arabia and Russia. I think the protesters should try storm their embassies, would cause headlines around the world. They are always closing roads it's never at the front of the paper, well until they cause a poor woman to be paralysed

:dunno: Not sure what your point is here, there are environmental protests in these countries and globally. And I’m not sure about Russia but China is certainly amongst the most ambitious reduction in fossil fuel use both domestically and in the third world. Doing more in word and action than any country on earth, certainly in absolute terms.

[Northernhibee]

:dunno: Not sure what your point is here, there are environmental protests in these countries and globally. And I’m not sure about Russia but China is certainly amongst the most ambitious reduction in fossil fuel use both domestically and in the third world. Doing more in word and action than any country on earth, certainly in absolute terms.

They’ve just announced an end to opening coal fired projects abroad which will make a big difference too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Insulate Britain spokesperson hasn't had his home Insulated and uses gas heating. :faf:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-22/insulate-britain-protester-on-why-he-hasnt-insulated-his-own-home

[Northernhibee]

Insulate Britain spokesperson hasn't had his home Insulated and uses gas heating. :faf:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-22/insulate-britain-protester-on-why-he-hasnt-insulated-his-own-home

Every chance he may not be able to afford to which is kind of the point they’re raising.

Just because you want to change society doesn’t mean you can opt out of taking part in it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Every chance he may not be able to afford to which is kind of the point they’re raising.

Just because you want to change society doesn’t mean you can opt out of taking part in it.

Fair point but it's a bit like Greta turning up for a Fridays for Freedom demo in a Humvee.

[Stairway 2 7]

:dunno: Not sure what your point is here, there are environmental protests in these countries and globally. And I’m not sure about Russia but China is certainly amongst the most ambitious reduction in fossil fuel use both domestically and in the third world. Doing more in word and action than any country on earth, certainly in absolute terms.
Your either on the gear or the hibs.net member of the ccp. They are ranked 120 of 180 countries in the Environmental Performance Index

[Northernhibee]

Fair point but it's a bit like Greta turning up for a Fridays for Freedom demo in a Humvee.

It's completely different.

What business is it of the right wing talking head on ITV news if someone can afford to pay for double glazing, insulation etc?

[wookie70]

Saw this earlier, absolute imbeciles.

Must have been terrifying for these drivers and the police officers trying to stop them.

Did you watch the videos. The traffic had slowed to an almost stop and you are having a laugh the Police would be terrified. They were waiting and all they had to do was drag them off the carriageway.

Decades of talk has led to very little being done on climate change. The time for talk is probably over and while I have my doubts this was the best choice of protest something needs to happen. Voting won't change anything as the only parties with a chance of winning in Westmonster aren't really interested in the future of the world. The groups demands should have been carried out years ago without the need for any protest

[lapsedhibee]

It's completely different.

What business is it of the right wing talking head on ITV news if someone can afford to pay for double glazing, insulation etc?

:agree:

[Steve20]

They're morons. The fact they caused a woman to end up paralysed because they blocked a motorway is sickening.

To be honest, it's sickening reading people trying to defend their behaviour.

[hibsbollah]

Your either on the gear or the hibs.net member of the ccp. They are ranked 120 of 180 countries in the Environmental Performance Index

…which ranks polluters in absolute terms, not in recent efforts to curb emissions. China Industrialised about 150 years after the UK and have a ‘slightly’ larger population so they were always going to be a major polluter. In the late 20th century. It shouldn’t take long on google to read up on their technical and political environmental advancements.

I’m not on the gear or in the CCP. I do have a 12yo Tobermory hangover and I do own a copy of Maos little red book so it’s not a bad guess I suppose.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's completely different.

What business is it of the right wing talking head on ITV news if someone can afford to pay for double glazing, insulation etc?

What business is it of environmental protesters to decide that other people can afford to sit in traffic jams for six hours? Fwiw I agree that there's a drastic need to change how we live, but causing chaos and gridlock on the roads isn't the right way to go about it. Actions like this are likely to cost support for serious environmentalist organisations and compound public perception that all climate activists are looney radicals.

[hibsbollah]

causing chaos and gridlock on the roads isn't the right way to go about it.

It probably is, actually. I know if there was a ER protest planned and advertised for the M8 on Friday, when I’m going to visit my daughter, I’d definitely be taking the train.

[Santa Cruz]

It probably is, actually. I know if there was a ER protest planned and advertised for the M8 on Friday, when I’m going to visit my daughter, I’d definitely be taking the train.

Did they pre-announce the motorway blockages to allow others that choice?

[hibsbollah]

Did they pre-announce the motorway blockages to allow others that choice?

I have no idea. Doing so would certainly dull the impact of the protest so I doubt it. I think that’s missing the point. It’s like a strike, the whole point is maximizing disruption otherwise there’s no point in doing it. If you are caught up in the disruption you either support the protests as part of a greater good or get angry about it because you don’t think the disruption is worth it, that’s up to your personal morality.

If I DID know about it, I wouldn’t take the car, I’d take the train instead. That means the protest is effective in its aims.

[Hibrandenburg]

It probably is, actually. I know if there was a ER protest planned and advertised for the M8 on Friday, when I’m going to visit my daughter, I’d definitely be taking the train.

As would anyone. However those stuck in the jam because they received no warning or had no other alternative might not take such a tolerant view.

From what I've seen so far, the protests have done nothing more than alienate potential support for the cause they want to win support for.

[Jones28]

What business is it of environmental protesters to decide that other people can afford to sit in traffic jams for six hours? Fwiw I agree that there's a drastic need to change how we live, but causing chaos and gridlock on the roads isn't the right way to go about it. Actions like this are likely to cost support for serious environmentalist organisations and compound public perception that all climate activists are looney radicals.

What is the correct way to go about it other than “tried and tested” methods that are totally ineffective?

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's very selfish and dangerous to do what they are doing.

I don't think it's at all selfish. They care enough about climate change to spend their time and energy protesting. Selfish is not giving a toss. They are risking arrest for the greater good, not for their personal gain.

[Since90+2]

Did they pre-announce the motorway blockages to allow others that choice?

Exactly.

[Santa Cruz]

I have no idea. Doing so would certainly dull the impact of the protest so I doubt it. I think that’s missing the point. It’s like a strike, the whole point is maximizing disruption otherwise there’s no point in doing it. If you are caught up in the disruption you either support the protests as part of a greater good or get angry about it because you don’t think the disruption is worth it, that’s up to your personal morality.

If I DID know about it, I wouldn’t take the car, I’d take the train instead. That means the protest is effective in its aims.



If the people stuck in cars on the motorway DID know, I dare say they would have avoided taking that route also. The protest would have been ineffective in the protesters eye's because they would have caused zero disruption and got zero publicity.

[Hibrandenburg]

What is the correct way to go about it other than “tried and tested” methods that are totally ineffective?

Are they ineffective or are they simply too slow? There's a generation shift on environmental issues already happening. We have a government in Scotland with Green Party members in it and an elected government that is greener than any before it. Things are already moving in favour of change and that change is likely to gather in tempo. If the actions we've seen in England the last few days were repeated in Scotland with Green Party politicians offering support for such actions, then I'm certain it would have a negative effect on their support.

I'll turn the question around. Where is the line that can't be crossed whilst protesting?

[lapsedhibee]

It was all anyone could talk about in 1913, that Emily Davison should have pre-announced her intentions. Then punters who backed Anmer could have diverted their bets.

[hibsbollah]

If the people stuck in cars on the motorway DID know, I dare say they would have avoided taking that route also. The protest would have been ineffective in the protesters eye's because they would have caused zero disruption and got zero publicity.

I couldn’t disagree more. If I was involved in the protests and I knew it had dissuaded a car journey, I would have considered that job done, result.

[Santa Cruz]

I couldn’t disagree more. If I was involved in the protests and I knew it had dissuaded a car journey, I would have considered that job done, result.

Fair enough if that's how you would view it as a measure of success. I don't share your view for reasons already stated. I will leave it there.

[Jones28]

Are they ineffective or are they simply too slow? There's a generation shift on environmental issues already happening. We have a government in Scotland with Green Party members in it and an elected government that is greener than any before it. Things are already moving in favour of change and that change is likely to gather in tempo. If the actions we've seen in England the last few days were repeated in Scotland with Green Party politicians offering support for such actions, then I'm certain it would have a negative effect on their support.

I'll turn the question around. Where is the line that can't be crossed whilst protesting?

That line is being crossed at the moment, with them actually going on to the motorways instead of sitting at lights on junctions.

Still no one has actually suggested a viable alternative…

[hibsbollah]

It was all anyone could talk about in 1913, that Emily Davison should have pre-announced her intentions. Then punters who backed Anmer could have diverted their bets.

…Rosa Parks’ bus boycott wouldn’t have taken off the way it did if it was pre-announced on the Lothian buses’ Limited Stop’ #47.

[Since90+2]

I wonder if those supporting this would have the same opinion if this happened in Edinburgh and it was an elderly relative of theirs who ended up paralysed due to these protests.

I suspect they would have a different response.

[Stairway 2 7]

Doubt 99% of the population would have known about it if it wasn't for the poor woman, its hardly out there as a news story. Run infront of a horse like Emily pankhurst, hunger strike that always gets world news attention or petrol on the head like the poor monk in saigon

[Hibernia&Alba]

Doubt 99% of the population would have known about it if it wasn't for the poor woman, its hardly out there as a news story. Run infront of a horse like Emily pankhurst, hunger strike that always gets world news attention or petrol on the head like the poor monk in saigon

Hardly fair to ask folk to commit suicide in the name of peaceful protest :greengrin. Martyrdom takes a special kind of person.

[calumhibee1]

That line is being crossed at the moment, with them actually going on to the motorways instead of sitting at lights on junctions.

Still no one has actually suggested a viable alternative…

I’m not sure why you keep asking for a viable alternative. There’s loads of viable ways to protest and get your message out there. Loads have been mentioned. They might not be as effective in terms of getting people talking but they wouldn’t show such a blatant disregard for the people they’re directly impacting to the point one of them ends up paralysed.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m not sure why you keep asking for a viable alternative. There’s loads of viable ways to protest and get your message out there. Loads have been mentioned. They might not be as effective in terms of getting people talking but they wouldn’t show such a blatant disregard for the people they’re directly impacting to the point one of them ends up paralysed.

I think you're missing the point here, mate. The whole idea of civil disobedience is to challenge the system, which requires the pushing of boundaries, in order to raise awareness. It would be pointless to protest in such a way that nobody even is even aware a protest is taking place. That will sometimes mean people are inconvenienced; it's a an aged old tactic and sometimes that is necessary. I would draw the line at violence as a tactic, but peaceful protest must be part of a free society.

[hibsbollah]

I would draw the line at violence as a tactic.

Out of interest, why?

[lapsedhibee]

Doubt 99% of the population would have known about it if it wasn't for the poor woman, its hardly out there as a news story. Run infront of a horse like Emily pankhurst, hunger strike that always gets world news attention or petrol on the head like the poor monk in saigon

Fact check required.

[calumhibee1]

I think you're missing the point here, mate. The whole idea of civil disobedience is to challenge the system, which requires the pushing of boundaries, in order to raise awareness. It would be pointless to protest in such a way that nobody even is even aware a protest is taking place. That will sometimes mean people are inconvenienced; it's a an aged old tactic and sometimes that is necessary. I would draw the line at violence as a tactic, but peaceful protest must be part of a free society.

Leaving someone paralysed is a million miles past the point of someone being inconvenienced though which is the issue here. They chose a method of protesting that carried such a big risk of this sort of thing happening that I’m not sure it can really be called peaceful anymore. Claiming ignorance of the specific situation that was unfolding doesn’t cut it for me.

I’m sure if someone left you or a family member paralysed you’d find it a hell of a lot more than inconvenient.

I would agree that peaceful protest must be a part of a free society but I wouldn’t class a method of protest which had such a high chance of seeing someone die and/or suffer life threatening injuries is peaceful

[Hibernia&Alba]

Out of interest, why?

On moral grounds. Where does one draw the line, once violence is employed? Everyone could then justify violence for any cause; it isn't a huge leap until you're into the realm of overt terrorism. Some very worthy protest movements of the past have used violence as one method e.g. the Suffragettes and the anti-Apartheid movement, but it's often been counter-productive, turning public opinion away from the cause they want to promote and enabling governments and established power to vilify the movement as a whole.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I would agree that peaceful protest must be a part of a free society but I wouldn’t class a method of protest which had such a high chance of seeing someone die and/or suffer life threatening injuries is peaceful

If sitting in the road with a banner to protest climate change isn't peaceful, then what is?

[calumhibee1]

If sitting in the road with a banner to protest climate change isn't peaceful, then what is?

The act in itself is peaceful, yes. The potential consequences (which have ended up occurring) of those actions are far from being in the spirit of peaceful protest though.

If they’d carried out the exact same protest in the meadows or in a city centre street then I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. Locking so many people into an area that they had no way of getting out of for 6 hours was bound to end up with something going really wrong. Unfortunately it’s ended up with a woman being paralysed so that selfish twats with no care for the damage they were doing could exercise their right to protest.

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder if those supporting this would have the same opinion if this happened in Edinburgh and it was an elderly relative of theirs who ended up paralysed due to these protests.

I suspect they would have a different response.

:agree: Absolutely agree.

If it was a member of my family I'd be wanting the organisers charged.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The act in itself is peaceful, yes. The potential consequences (which have ended up occurring) of those actions are far from being in the spirit of peaceful protest though.

If they’d carried out the exact same protest in the meadows or in a city centre street then I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. Locking so many people into an area that they had no way of getting out of for 6 hours was bound to end up with something going really wrong. Unfortunately it’s ended up with a woman being paralysed so that selfish twats with no care for the damage they were doing could exercise their right to protest.

I think you're demanding the impossible: that every non-violent protest must have the foresight to evaluate every possible repercussion ahead of time. Did the road protesters know there would be an ambulance carrying a paralysed woman? No. Would they have held the protest at another time, if they could have known? Yes of course. It just isn't possible.

[calumhibee1]

I think you're demanding the impossible: that every protest must have the foresight to evaluate every possible repercussion ahead of time. Did the road protesters know there would be an ambulance carrying a paralysed woman? No. Would they have held the protest at another time, if they could have known? Yes of course. It just isn't possible.

I don’t think it took any real level of foresight to see that an incident like this had a high chance of happening.

I said it earlier in the thread but if I was to decide I was going to go and shut down a motorway this sort of incident would be right up at the top of my concerns as to what could go wrong. I’m sure most others would be the same yet these people presumably thought about that and went ahead with it anyway deciding the collateral damage was worth it. Either that or they didn’t think about it at all and are just shutting down motorways with reckless abandon.

[Northernhibee]

I think you're demanding the impossible: that every non-violent protest must have the foresight to evaluate every possible repercussion ahead of time. Did the road protesters know there would be an ambulance carrying a paralysed woman? No. Would they have held the protest at another time, if they could have known? Yes of course. It just isn't possible.

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs and when we need to act now to avoid a potential mass extinction at the end of this century, it's vital.

I am absolutely sure if I was related to the person stuck in the traffic that I would be angry. Absolutely. That's adding further emotions to an already emotive subject.

Governments are not getting the urgency of the issue and you'll see more and more disruption as time goes on. It's what works.

[Stairway 2 7]

Extinction rebellion said they regretted stopping the tube in London during rush hour, as it was divisive for the public. Although probably more to do with the public leathering the protesters. Surely this is more divisive.

[hibsbollah]

On moral grounds. Where does one draw the line, once violence is employed? Everyone could then justify violence for any cause; it isn't a huge leap until you're into the realm of overt terrorism. Some very worthy protest movements of the past have used violence as one method e.g. the Suffragettes and the anti-Apartheid movement, but it's often been counter-productive, turning public opinion away from the cause they want to promote and enabling governments and established power to vilify the movement as a whole.

A fair argument, but the ANC only achieved its aims in South Africa when they abandoned non-violent protest and started blowing stuff up.
https://time.com/5338569/nelson-mandela-terror-list/
(For the record, I am not promoting direct acts of violence, im just enjoying taking this National Five Morals and Ethics discussion to a conclusion :greengrin
'Violence' is illegal because the state reserves that right and gives it to the police and the military. To protect the people.
If the WHO is to be believed, an unimaginable amount of people are going to die because of the climate crisis.

https://www.who.int/heli/risks/climate/climatechange/en/

We know that Exxon chief executives knew exactly what the projections were, and blocked legislation and paid off politicians.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Are you saying if you had a time machine, access to US army drones and knew where those execs were 45 years ago, you would call the targeted assassination of 5 or so lives to save over a billion, immoral?

Again, just for the sake of a morality and ethical discussion.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Here's a an interesting distinction:

An entirely peaceful protest sadly means an ambulance is blocked in the traffic tram. Outrageous, they should never do it again.

A couple of nights ago on the news: America mistakenly bombs a car carrying ten members of a family in Afghanistan, including seven children, killing them all, after deliberately targeting the vehicle. This wasn't a peaceful protest. They say sorry, it was "a tragic mistake", they thought the car was carrying terrorists. Ten dead. Should America never drop another bomb and never fight another war? Who is advocating that?

So often the establishment is held to a completely different (and much lower) standard. Which was the larger crime here?

[Peevemor]

Not everybody approved of the yellow vest protests in France but they did manage to change things. Had we not all been in lockdown I'm fairly sure it would have all kicked off again on May Day last year - a traditional day for popular protest.

I don't think we've seen the last of them either.

[lapsedhibee]

Here's a an interesting distinction:

An entirely peaceful protest sadly means an ambulance is blocked in the traffic tram. Outrageous, they should never do it again.

A couple of nights ago on the news: America mistakenly bombs a car carrying ten members of a family, including seven children, killing them all, after deliberately targeting the vehicle. This wasn't a peaceful protest. They say sorry, it was "a tragic mistake", they thought the car was carrying terrorists. Ten dead. Should America never drop another bomb and never fight another war? Who is advocating that?

So often the establishment is held to a completely different (and much lower) standard. Which was the larger crime here?

Don't think there was an ambulance.

[wookie70]

Did they pre-announce the motorway blockages to allow others that choice?


Why would they. The point of action like this or strikes is to cause as much disruption as possible.

I wish I had the courage to stand up for my principles as much as the protesters do. Teachers who will lose there jobs trying to fight for a future for my kids. I might not have their drive and determination but they have my support. They are fighting for a better future, for the end to thousands of fuel poverty deaths and they are doing it for the greater good and for no personal gain. They will end up with criminal records while the real criminals are those sitting in parliaments who are sitting idle as the world burns.

I'm usually very critical of the Police but I think they showed they can stop this type of action from peaceful protestors without battens and extreme force. The policing of this has restored some of my much lost faith in The Police. Well done them and hopefully this is the start of some serious social unrest with the police doing their job rather than being the boot boys of the Tories.

UK citizens must be the most cap doffing subservient humans on the planet. We are quite literally lorded over by some of the biggest idiots in the country and as a population our knee jerk reaction appears to be to support our "betters" however wrong they are. Read the demands of this protest group and surely anyone would see that they are demanding something that should have happened a decade or more ago. It is unbelievable how little has been achieved by a set of Tory Governments which came in with a fairly green manifesto and who have spent their time doing the opposite. Our own Scottish Government deserve plenty criticism in this regard too despite being a good deal better than Westminster.

As to the story about the lady who was paralysed, her son made the choice to drive her to hospital. Perhaps if he had let the ambulance service do its job the tragedy might not have happened, what if he had broken down on a normal day without protest, or there had been a big crash that shut the carriageway or if the ambulance took more time but had the opportunity to treat en route. We also only have his word on what doctors said and there may be a number of reasons that may not be accurate. Even the Daily Mail pointed out it was unsubstantiated. I listened to him and still find it hard to believe that he thought he would be able to get to a hospital quicker than an ambulance.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A fair argument, but the ANC only achieved its aims in South Africa when they abandoned non-violent protest and started blowing stuff up.
https://time.com/5338569/nelson-mandela-terror-list/
(For the record, I am not promoting direct acts of violence, im just enjoying taking this National Five Morals and Ethics discussion to a conclusion :greengrin
'Violence' is illegal because the state reserves that right and gives it to the police and the military. To protect the people.
If the WHO is to be believed, an unimaginable amount of people are going to die because of the climate crisis.

https://www.who.int/heli/risks/climate/climatechange/en/

We know that Exxon chief executives knew exactly what the projections were, and blocked legislation and paid off politicians.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Are you saying if you had a time machine, access to US army drones and knew where those execs were 45 years ago, you would call the targeted assassination of 5 or so lives to save over a billion, immoral?

Again, just for the sake of a morality and ethical discussion.

Aye, these a very difficult moral decisions. What does one do in the most extreme circumstances? Imagine being Harry Truman in 1945: either drop an atomic bomb on civilians, forcing a Japanese surrender, or fight on conventionally, probably for a couple of years and probably at a cost of a million American casualties. What should he have done? Deliberately killing civilians; men, women and children is a war crime....

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not everybody approved of the yellow vest protests in France but they did manage to change things. Had we not all been in lockdown I'm fairly sure it would have all kicked off again on May Day last year - a traditional day for popular protest.

I don't think we've seen the last of them either.

The French have no such moral qualms when it comes to protest of any kind. Go for option A - set fire tae everything :greengrin

[calumhibee1]

As to the story about the lady who was paralysed, her son made the choice to drive her to hospital. Perhaps if he had let the ambulance service do its job the tragedy might not have happened, what if he had broken down on a normal day without protest, or there had been a big crash that shut the carriageway or if the ambulance took more time but had the opportunity to treat en route. We also only have his word on what doctors said and there may be a number of reasons that may not be accurate. Even the Daily Mail pointed out it was unsubstantiated. I listened to him and still find it hard to believe that he thought he would be able to get to a hospital quicker than an ambulance.

Passing the responsibility onto the son for trying to save his mums life is utterly despicable.

[Antifa Hibs]

:agree: Absolutely agree.

If it was a member of my family I'd be wanting the organisers charged.

What about if the by-pass was closed due to someone jumping off a flyover? Or snow or ice? Or a lorry jack-knifed? Or a car crash? Do we charge those people too? Roads are closed for all different reasons without notice.

PS if you're main concern is ambulances getting around to hospital without being disrupted then I assume you're all going to sell your cars and never drive again. Because I guess the main thing for slowing ambulances down from reaching those in need is..... peoeple in cars, and not the odd protest.

[Peevemor]

The French have no such moral qualms when it comes to protest of any kind. Go for option A - set fire tae everything :greengrinTrue, but protests only work if they cause a maximum of disruption/inconvenience.

[wookie70]

Aye, these a very difficult moral decisions. What does one do in the most extreme circumstances? Imagine being Harry Truman in 1945: either drop an atomic bomb on civilians, forcing a Japanese surrender, or fight on conventionally, probably for a couple of years and probably at a cost of a million American casualties. What should he have done? Deliberately killing civilians; men, women and children is a war crime.... There were less than half a million US deaths in the whole of WW2 and just over 111k attributed to the Japanese. Those two bombs killed twice as many as that and caused untold misery for decades to come and US forces killed multiple times more Japanese soldiers than vice versa even before the bombs. I know where I stand morally on that. It was completely immoral and wholly disproportionate.

[hibsbollah]

The French have no such moral qualms when it comes to protest of any kind. Go for option A - set fire tae everything :greengrin

There seems to be a new riot every week in ligue 1 these days.

[wookie70]

Passing the responsibility onto the son for trying to save his mums life is utterly despicable.

He has passed the responsibility onto the protestors should his actions not be held to account. Choosing to drive someone having a stroke to hospital knowing there was traffic delays comes with responsibilities and massive risks. It would be the last action I would choose and I would put my trust in the ambulance service. Are his actions not questionable even though he had direct knowledge of the situation his mum was in, allegedly.

[lord bunberry]

Extinction rebellion said they regretted stopping the tube in London during rush hour, as it was divisive for the public. Although probably more to do with the public leathering the protesters. Surely this is more divisive.
That was an absolutely glorious moment when they were dragged off the top of the tube and leathered.

[hibsbollah]

That was an absolutely glorious moment when they were dragged off the top of the tube and leathered.

So violence IS justified? Does that mean you'd kill the EXXON execs in my scenario?

[lord bunberry]

So violence IS justified? Does that mean you'd kill the EXXON execs in my scenario?
Giving someone a kicking for being a complete ****** isn’t the same as killing someone. These people were using public transport rather than their cars.

[Santa Cruz]

Why would they. The point of action like this or strikes is to cause as much disruption as possible.

I wish I had the courage to stand up for my principles as much as the protesters do. Teachers who will lose there jobs trying to fight for a future for my kids. I might not have their drive and determination but they have my support. They are fighting for a better future, for the end to thousands of fuel poverty deaths and they are doing it for the greater good and for no personal gain. They will end up with criminal records while the real criminals are those sitting in parliaments who are sitting idle as the world burns.

I'm usually very critical of the Police but I think they showed they can stop this type of action from peaceful protestors without battens and extreme force. The policing of this has restored some of my much lost faith in The Police. Well done them and hopefully this is the start of some serious social unrest with the police doing their job rather than being the boot boys of the Tories.

UK citizens must be the most cap doffing subservient humans on the planet. We are quite literally lorded over by some of the biggest idiots in the country and as a population our knee jerk reaction appears to be to support our "betters" however wrong they are. Read the demands of this protest group and surely anyone would see that they are demanding something that should have happened a decade or more ago. It is unbelievable how little has been achieved by a set of Tory Governments which came in with a fairly green manifesto and who have spent their time doing the opposite. Our own Scottish Government deserve plenty criticism in this regard too despite being a good deal better than Westminster.

As to the story about the lady who was paralysed, her son made the choice to drive her to hospital. Perhaps if he had let the ambulance service do its job the tragedy might not have happened, what if he had broken down on a normal day without protest, or there had been a big crash that shut the carriageway or if the ambulance took more time but had the opportunity to treat en route. We also only have his word on what doctors said and there may be a number of reasons that may not be accurate. Even the Daily Mail pointed out it was unsubstantiated. I listened to him and still find it hard to believe that he thought he would be able to get to a hospital quicker than an ambulance.

Your last paragraph is just ridiculous. I'm not even wasting my time explaining why.

[calumhibee1]

He has passed the responsibility onto the protestors should his actions not be held to account. Choosing to drive someone having a stroke to hospital knowing there was traffic delays comes with responsibilities and massive risks. It would be the last action I would choose and I would put my trust in the ambulance service. Are his actions not questionable even though he had direct knowledge of the situation his mum was in, allegedly.

Incredible.

[lord bunberry]

Incredible.
It really is, one of the most heartless, ****ty things I’ve read on here in a long time.

[hibsbollah]

Giving someone a kicking for being a complete ****** isn’t the same as killing someone. These people were using public transport rather than their cars.

You know better than that, giving someone a kicking can lead to accidental death, falling down stairs etc, one punch manslaughter happens all the time, its violence. Youve just described it as hilarious.

Theres certainly a lot more causation and intent to cause injury there, compared tothe situation with the woman caught up in the traffic jam trying to get to hospital. In this situation, protestors have been called ****, need locking up etc.

We justify violence based on which tribe is getting the kicking, obviously.

[vincipernoi]

Your last paragraph is just ridiculous. I'm not even wasting my time explaining why.

The 6 hour timeframe and being an hour and a half too late makes sense
The therapeutic window for thrombolysis ('clot busting drug) is four and half hours
It's not usually given after that time but is far from guaranteed to be effective

[wookie70]

The 6 hour timeframe and being an hour and a half too late makes sense
The therapeutic window for thrombolysis ('clot busting drug) is four and half hours
It's not usually given after that time but is far from guaranteed to be effective

His story was that he would have had to be there 4 and a half hours earlier so it doesn't fit at all.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not everybody approved of the yellow vest protests in France but they did manage to change things. Had we not all been in lockdown I'm fairly sure it would have all kicked off again on May Day last year - a traditional day for popular protest.

I don't think we've seen the last of them either.

Like the suffragette movement, ANC, Irish Republican Movement, French Revolution and other "revolutions", the yellow Vest protests had overwhelming support for their cause and the politicians were denying them their rights. I'm all for civil disobedience and even unrest if it's already supported by a substantial proportion of the population. However Insulate Britain need to do a lot of work to get people on their side before this kind of action bears fruit, until then they will only succeed in alienating more than they recruit.

[Peevemor]

Like the suffragette movement, ANC, Irish Republican Movement, French Revolution and other "revolutions", the yellow Vest protests had overwhelming support for their cause and the politicians were denying them their rights. I'm all for civil disobedience and even unrest if it's already supported by a substantial proportion of the population. However Insulate Britain need to do a lot of work to get people on their side before this kind of action bears fruit, until then they will only succeed in alienating more than they recruit.The yellow vests didn't have any fixed cause(s) or leadership. People were simply becoming more & more pissed off and it was eventually a proposed fuel price rise that tipped the balance, but the protests weren't specifically about that.

[Jones28]

I’m not sure why you keep asking for a viable alternative. There’s loads of viable ways to protest and get your message out there. Loads have been mentioned. They might not be as effective in terms of getting people talking but they wouldn’t show such a blatant disregard for the people they’re directly impacting to the point one of them ends up paralysed.

You’re right, they aren’t as effective. Which is why they’ve been disregarded as not radical enough.

[wookie70]

I know thanks, my Dad suffered a stroke.

So did my mum and my Gran and father in law. I'm aware that speed is of the essence as is expert attention. Similar to the climate emergency in that respect.

A stroke would be Cat 2 ambulance call according to the Nuffield Trust and the 90th percentile response rate for that in figures as recent as May 2021 is a few seconds under 50 minutes. So even some of the absolute worst performances for ambulances, during the worst of the pandemic under that Category was was under 50 minutes

[calumhibee1]

You’re right, they aren’t as effective. Which is why they’ve been disregarded as not radical enough.

May as well just resort to terrorist attacks then. They’re pretty radical, just ask Al-Qaeda about all the attention they got.

Being radical enough and getting enough attention seems to be the only thing that needs to be considered.

[Jones28]

May as well just resort to terrorist attacks then. They’re pretty radical, just ask Al-Qaeda about all the attention they got.

This is why I stopped discussing this with you, for this bollocks and indeed all the other stupid comparisons you made earlier on today.

Stopping traffic is the gateway to terrorism now?

[Betty Boop]

Talking of protest as from the 1st October, protest will be illegal outside the Scottish Parliament.

[wookie70]

You’re right, they aren’t as effective. Which is why they’ve been disregarded as not radical enough.

Or they have been disregarded as not effective enough

[lord bunberry]

You know better than that, giving someone a kicking can lead to accidental death, falling down stairs etc, one punch manslaughter happens all the time, its violence. Youve just described it as hilarious.

Theres certainly a lot more causation and intent to cause injury there, compared tothe situation with the woman caught up in the traffic jam trying to get to hospital. In this situation, protestors have been called ****, need locking up etc.

We justify violence based on which tribe is getting the kicking, obviously.
You’re right of course but it was pretty funny. Had someone been seriously hurt it would’ve been a different matter, but in terms of what these people believe in, trying to disrupt public transport was a pretty stupid thing to do.

[Sergio sledge]

I don’t think it took any real level of foresight to see that an incident like this had a high chance of happening.

I said it earlier in the thread but if I was to decide I was going to go and shut down a motorway this sort of incident would be right up at the top of my concerns as to what could go wrong. I’m sure most others would be the same yet these people presumably thought about that and went ahead with it anyway deciding the collateral damage was worth it. Either that or they didn’t think about it at all and are just shutting down motorways with reckless abandon.Without meaning to sound crass, and playing devil's advocate slightly, but you say there was a "high chance" of an incident like this happening. What exactly is a high chance, and what were the chances that someone would be using that exact stretch of motorway at that exact time to take their ill relative (mother?) To the hospital because they were having a stroke?

I'd hazard a guess that the chances of that happening are actually pretty low in reality.

We probably all take risks every day which have a higher chance of happening than this terrible incident.

[calumhibee1]

This is why I stopped discussing this with you, for this bollocks and indeed all the other stupid comparisons you made earlier on today.

Stopping traffic is the gateway to terrorism now?

Who said it was a gateway to terrorism? :confused:

You keep justifying what they done because other methods aren’t “radical enough” as if getting the message out there is the only consideration when planning how to protest. For someone that says they don’t necessarily agree with their method of protest your further posts would suggest the total opposite.

They’ve paralysed a woman this time and you can guarantee that protest won’t have come close to furthering their aims as much as they want. So they’ll need to get more radical next time and more radical the time after that. But still, as long as they’re being radical enough then that’s all that matters, who cares about what happens to innocent people caught up in the crossfire, they’re quite clearly dispensable.

[calumhibee1]

Without meaning to sound crass, and playing devil's advocate slightly, but you say there was a "high chance" of an incident like this happening. What exactly is a high chance, and what were the chances that someone would be using that exact stretch of motorway at that exact time to take their ill relative (mother?) To the hospital because they were having a stroke?

I'd hazard a guess that the chances of that happening are actually pretty low in reality.

We probably all take risks every day which have a higher chance of happening than this terrible incident.

I said an incident like that. Earlier on I mentioned a load of different scenarios that could prove highly dangerous. There could just as easily have been a pregnant woman forced to give birth in the back of a car with her postie husband delivering the baby. There could have been someone having a heart attack. The list is endless as to the bad things that could have went on and I’d suggest 6 hours worth of cars on a busy road will stand a decent chance of having someone that falls into a category like this on it.

[wookie70]

Incredible.

So not incredible that you directly attributed blame to the protesters("a blatant disregard for the people they’re directly impacting to the point one of them ends up paralysed") and some want them charged in connection with that. Can I not question someone else's very direct role in the alleged tragedy while you openly attribute direct blame on a group for their indirect actions.

[calumhibee1]

So not incredible that you directly attributed blame to the protesters("a blatant disregard for the people they’re directly impacting to the point one of them ends up paralysed") and some want them charged in connection with that. Can I not question someone else's very direct role in the alleged tragedy while you openly attribute direct blame on a group for their indirect actions.

If you think illegally blocking a busy road from the public for 6 hours causing people to be ‘locked in’ to an area with nowhere to go is the same as trying to get your mother to hospital to save her life then there’s really not much to be discussed. Even less to be discussed when you think it’s the person attempting to save the life’s fault and not the people hindering that process.

[Sergio sledge]

A fair argument, but the ANC only achieved its aims in South Africa when they abandoned non-violent protest and started blowing stuff up.
https://time.com/5338569/nelson-mandela-terror-list/
(For the record, I am not promoting direct acts of violence, im just enjoying taking this National Five Morals and Ethics discussion to a conclusion :greengrin
'Violence' is illegal because the state reserves that right and gives it to the police and the military. To protect the people.
If the WHO is to be believed, an unimaginable amount of people are going to die because of the climate crisis.

https://www.who.int/heli/risks/climate/climatechange/en/

We know that Exxon chief executives knew exactly what the projections were, and blocked legislation and paid off politicians.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Are you saying if you had a time machine, access to US army drones and knew where those execs were 45 years ago, you would call the targeted assassination of 5 or so lives to save over a billion, immoral?

Again, just for the sake of a morality and ethical discussion.

In that particular situation in reality knocking off a few oil executives wouldn't have made any difference as someone else would have stepped in to do exactly the same thing, when profit comes into it there's always someone willing to step up.

The reality is I wouldn't ever resort to violence to achieve my aims, but I accept that, unfortunately, it is sometimes a necessary evil and can sometimes be justified. We all have to make a decision on where our line is drawn over what causes violence is justified for.

I'm just glad I'm not and likely never will be in a position where I have to either resort to violence or make a decision to go to war or anything like that.

[wookie70]

If you think illegally blocking a busy road from the public for 6 hours causing people to be ‘locked in’ to an area with nowhere to go is the same as trying to get your mother to hospital to save her life then there’s really not much to be discussed. Even less to be discussed when you think it’s the person attempting to save the life’s fault and not the people hindering that process.

Have a Google of traffic delays on the M25. 90 minute delays are hugely frequent. If they are caused by a crash due to a blowout because of a poorly maintained tyre is the person who had the accident directly responsible for everything happening in that traffic jam.

Could phoning an Ambulance have ended up with a professional being there much quicker, who knows but all the figures suggest yes. He certainly sounds like he was trying to save a life but that doesn't mean his actions were correct or beneficial. Understandable under extreme pressure absolutely. The protestors were trying to save lives too, 1000s a year.

I just can't imagine a call with the ambulance service where the operator says you would be quicker driving yourself. I might be wrong but phoning 999 and then being told your car will get here quicker than trained professionals with blues and twos sounds highly unlikely.

Your solution appears to be for protestors to take less effective action.

[calumhibee1]

Have a Google of traffic delays on the M25. 90 minute delays are hugely frequent. If they are caused by a crash due to a blowout because of a poorly maintained tyre is the person who had the accident directly responsible for everything happening in that traffic jam.

Could phoning an Ambulance have ended up with a professional being there much quicker, who knows but all the figures suggest yes. He certainly sounds like he was trying to save a life but that doesn't mean his actions were correct or beneficial. Understandable under extreme pressure absolutely. The protestors were trying to save lives too, 1000s a year.

I just can't imagine a call with the ambulance service where the operator says you would be quicker driving yourself. I might be wrong but phoning 999 and then being told your car will get here quicker than trained professionals with blues and twos sounds highly unlikely.

Your solution appears to be for protestors to take less effective action.

No my solution appears to be for protestors to take less dangerous action as I’ve said numerous times.

Risking people’s lives as they’ve done purely bevause it’s a more effective way of getting your message out is beyond the pale.

[hibsbollah]

In that particular situation in reality knocking off a few oil executives wouldn't have made any difference as someone else would have stepped in to do exactly the same thing, when profit comes into it there's always someone willing to step up.

The reality is I wouldn't ever resort to violence to achieve my aims, but I accept that, unfortunately, it is sometimes a necessary evil and can sometimes be justified. We all have to make a decision on where our line is drawn over what causes violence is justified for.

I'm just glad I'm not and likely never will be in a position where I have to either resort to violence or make a decision to go to war or anything like that.

Nice answer, well thought out.

Now how about Zibby Malkowski???

[Sergio sledge]

I said an incident like that. Earlier on I mentioned a load of different scenarios that could prove highly dangerous. There could just as easily have been a pregnant woman forced to give birth in the back of a car with her postie husband delivering the baby. There could have been someone having a heart attack. The list is endless as to the bad things that could have went on and I’d suggest 6 hours worth of cars on a busy road will stand a decent chance of having someone that falls into a category like this on it.

I disagree, I don't think that there's a "high chance" or a "decent chance".

I'd suggest if you look at the chances of someone having a stroke, or the birth rate, or heart attack rate, etc. And you look at the number of people affected by the protest then you'd find that the chances of someone in those vehicles having something like that happen to them is actually pretty low. Certainly from a risk assessment point of view, which is all that these people can do before undertaking the protest.

[Sergio sledge]

Nice answer, well thought out.

Now how about Zibby Malkowski???If you've got a time machine then I'll bring my gun.... [emoji23]

[Peevemor]

If you've got a time machine then I'll bring my gun.... [emoji23]If anyone has a time machine I wouldn't mind a shot - I've just been reminded that today's our 20th wedding anniversary. [emoji849]

[lapsedhibee]

If anyone has a time machine I wouldn't mind a shot - I've just been reminded that today's our 20th wedding anniversary. [emoji849]

To go back one day, and get a second chance to remember it, or 20+ years, so that there might be nothing to forget? :lips seal

[Sir David Gray]

What about if the by-pass was closed due to someone jumping off a flyover? Or snow or ice? Or a lorry jack-knifed? Or a car crash? Do we charge those people too? Roads are closed for all different reasons without notice.

PS if you're main concern is ambulances getting around to hospital without being disrupted then I assume you're all going to sell your cars and never drive again. Because I guess the main thing for slowing ambulances down from reaching those in need is..... peoeple in cars, and not the odd protest.

It's hardly a comparable situation to be honest.

[Jones28]

Who said it was a gateway to terrorism? :confused:

You keep justifying what they done because other methods aren’t “radical enough” as if getting the message out there is the only consideration when planning how to protest. For someone that says they don’t necessarily agree with their method of protest your further posts would suggest the total opposite.

They’ve paralysed a woman this time and you can guarantee that protest won’t have come close to furthering their aims as much as they want. So they’ll need to get more radical next time and more radical the time after that. But still, as long as they’re being radical enough then that’s all that matters, who cares about what happens to innocent people caught up in the crossfire, they’re quite clearly dispensable.

You implied it in your previous reply ffs, do you read what you write?

I’ve said it twice now, I’m not going to engage with you because we are so opposed on this it’s pointless. You are not going to convince me that they’ve paralysed a woman - you are now speaking as though they carried it out themselves, as though it was pre meditated.

I don’t agree with them going on to the carriageway, for I think the third time.

I do not think their methods of causing maximum disruption through civil disobedience to keep their argument in the public eye are wrong. That’s the whole point. Radical was probably the wrong word to use in this instance.

You’re jumping to lots of conclusions with no real evidence. You’re implying that people die and suffer horrific health complications from being stuck in traffic all the time, how often does it really happen?

[lord bunberry]

You implied it in your previous reply ffs, do you read what you write?

I’ve said it twice now, I’m not going to engage with you because we are so opposed on this it’s pointless. You are not going to convince me that they’ve paralysed a woman - you are now speaking as though they carried it out themselves, as though it was pre meditated.

I don’t agree with them going on to the carriageway, for I think the third time.

I do not think their methods of causing maximum disruption through civil disobedience to keep their argument in the public eye are wrong. That’s the whole point. Radical was probably the wrong word to use in this instance.

You’re jumping to lots of conclusions with no real evidence. You’re implying that people die and suffer horrific health complications from being stuck in traffic all the time, how often does it really happen?
They acted without caring about potential consequences, sadly one of the consequences was a woman ended up paralysed. Maximum disruption will occasionally cost lives, these people must know that and be prepared to live with it. When you decide to block a motorway, you must know that it’s a possibility that you’re going to end up blocking a life threatening situation, they’ll obviously hope it doesn’t happen, but they’re prepared to take that risk. For us it’s a discussion on a forum, for the people involved it’s a family tragedy.

[Jones28]

They acted without caring about potential consequences, sadly one of the consequences was a woman ended up paralysed. Maximum disruption will occasionally cost lives, these people must know that and be prepared to live with it. When you decide to block a motorway, you must know that it’s a possibility that you’re going to end up blocking a life threatening situation, they’ll obviously hope it doesn’t happen, but they’re prepared to take that risk. For us it’s a discussion on a forum, for the people involved it’s a family tragedy.

They view the potential consequences of inaction as far worse than anything their actions now will inflict. Are they wrong? Probably not. The climate crises is real and is coming far quicker than any of us dare to imagine.

This poor woman being paralysed is tragic, unfortunate and very sad for her and the family, I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone to disagree with that.

Two points there that have to meet somewhere in my mind. The tragic accidental paralysis of a women who was unfortunate vs a group of committed people trying something different to the usual write letter to MP, protest around parliament square kind of thing.

[Hibrandenburg]

They view the potential consequences of inaction as far worse than anything their actions now will inflict. Are they wrong? Probably not. The climate crises is real and is coming far quicker than any of us dare to imagine.

This poor woman being paralysed is tragic, unfortunate and very sad for her and the family, I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone to disagree with that.

Two points there that have to meet somewhere in my mind. The tragic accidental paralysis of a women who was unfortunate vs a group of committed people trying something different to the usual write letter to MP, protest around parliament square kind of thing.

That's the old runaway railcar and sidetrack conundrum.

[calumhibee1]

You implied it in your previous reply ffs, do you read what you write?

I’ve said it twice now, I’m not going to engage with you because we are so opposed on this it’s pointless. You are not going to convince me that they’ve paralysed a woman - you are now speaking as though they carried it out themselves, as though it was pre meditated.

I don’t agree with them going on to the carriageway, for I think the third time.

I do not think their methods of causing maximum disruption through civil disobedience to keep their argument in the public eye are wrong. That’s the whole point. Radical was probably the wrong word to use in this instance.

You’re jumping to lots of conclusions with no real evidence. You’re implying that people die and suffer horrific health complications from being stuck in traffic all the time, how often does it really happen?

I never once implied it’s a gateway to terrorism. You made that link between the protesters and terrorism, not me.

For all the talk from you about stupid comparisons etc to suggest I said what they’ve done is a gateway to terrorism is just plain stupid.

[lapsedhibee]

I never once implied it’s a gateway to terrorism. It would appear it’s you that isn’t reading what is written.

For all the talk from you about stupid comparisons etc to suggest I said what they’ve done is a gateway to terrorism is just plain stupid.

What did you mean when you said "They’ve paralysed a woman this time and you can guarantee that protest won’t have come close to furthering their aims as much as they want. So they’ll need to get more radical next time and more radical the time after that."?

It reads as if you believe there will be an escalation of aggressive behaviour, that the protesters will sooner or later arrive at position where they will stop at nothing to achieve their aims. Is that not at least hinting at, if not actually implying, terrorist behaviour? :dunno:

[calumhibee1]

What did you mean when you said "They’ve paralysed a woman this time and you can guarantee that protest won’t have come close to furthering their aims as much as they want. So they’ll need to get more radical next time and more radical the time after that."?

It reads as if you believe there will be an escalation of aggressive behaviour, that the protesters will sooner or later arrive at position where they will stop at nothing to achieve their aims. Is that not at least hinting at, if not actually implying, terrorist behaviour? :dunno:

No, that’s in response to Jones28 constant suggestion that any other type of ‘lesser’ protest wouldn’t be “radical” enough to make change.

This protest won’t make change, or at least not to the degree that it’ll make the level of difference the protesters want, you can guarantee that and if the only consideration is whether it’s going to be radical enough to make change (which is essentially what Jones28 keeps indicating when they tell me that writing to MPs or protesting in city centres won’t work because it’s been done before etc) then there’ll need to be an escalation in how “radical” it is for them to get anywhere. An escalation that will almost inevitably see the risk to the public increase.

I never once said they’ll stop at nothing. The suggestion that the protesters would evolve into terrorists was made by Jones28, not me as is quite clear from my posts. The suggesting they may as well resort to terrorism was quite clearly based on Jones28 suggestion that anything that isn’t radical enough to make change wasn’t worth while in his/her opinion.

[Jones28]

No, that’s in response to Jones28 constant suggestion that any other type of ‘lesser’ protest wouldn’t be “radical” enough to make change.

This protest won’t make change, or at least not to the degree that it’ll make the level of difference the protesters want, you can guarantee that and if the only consideration is whether it’s going to be radical enough to make change (which is essentially what Jones28 keeps indicating when they tell me that writing to MPs or protesting in city centres won’t work because it’s been done before etc) then there’ll need to be an escalation in how “radical” it is for them to get anywhere. An escalation that will almost inevitably see the risk to the public increase.

I never once said they’ll stop at nothing. The suggestion that the protesters would evolve into terrorists was made by Jones28, not me as is quite clear from my posts. The suggesting they may as well resort to terrorism was quite clearly based on Jones28 suggestion that anything that isn’t radical enough to make change wasn’t worth while in his/her opinion.

You brought terrorism in to the conversation, not me. My opinion has quite clearly been stated as what they are doing is too far by going on to the motorways. You are implying I support their methods and they don’t go far enough, which I have repeatedly said I do not.

[lapsedhibee]

No, that’s in response to Jones28 constant suggestion that any other type of ‘lesser’ protest wouldn’t be “radical” enough to make change.

This protest won’t make change, or at least not to the degree that it’ll make the level of difference the protesters want, you can guarantee that and if the only consideration is whether it’s going to be radical enough to make change (which is essentially what Jones28 keeps indicating when they tell me that writing to MPs or protesting in city centres won’t work because it’s been done before etc) then there’ll need to be an escalation in how “radical” it is for them to get anywhere. An escalation that will almost inevitably see the risk to the public increase.

I never once said they’ll stop at nothing. The suggestion that the protesters would evolve into terrorists was made by Jones28, not me as is quite clear from my posts. The suggesting they may as well resort to terrorism was quite clearly based on Jones28 suggestion that anything that isn’t radical enough to make change wasn’t worth while in his/her opinion.

Right, ta, clearer now. :aok:

[calumhibee1]

You brought terrorism in to the conversation, not me. My opinion has quite clearly been stated as what they are doing is too far by going on to the motorways. You are implying I support their methods and they don’t go far enough, which I have repeatedly said I do not.

And yet when someone criticises their methods you then demand they tell you what they should be doing that’s equally as radical. For all you keep saying you don’t support their methods you then go on to defend them to the hilt.

[Jones28]

And yet when someone criticises their methods you then demand they tell you what they should be doing that’s equally as radical. For all you keep saying you don’t support their methods you then go on to defend them to the hilt.

How am I defending to the hilt when I’m clearly saying they are going too far by going on to the carriageways?

Actually don’t bother responding. We aren’t going to agree so it’s a waste of time.

[calumhibee1]

How am I defending to the hilt when I’m clearly saying they are going too far by going on to the carriageways?

So just to get this clear:

You feel they have a right to protest

You feel that safer methods of protest aren’t radical enough seeing as you shoot them down any time they’re mentioned (or you mention them yourself)

You feel that this method is too radical and you don’t support it

I can only presume then that you feel there is no suitable method of protest available to these folk in that case?

[Jones28]

So just to get this clear:

You feel they have a right to protest

You feel that safer methods of protest aren’t radical enough seeing as you shoot them down any time they’re mentioned (or you mention them yourself)

You feel that this method is too radical and you don’t support it

I can only presume then that you feel there is no suitable method of protest available to these folk in that case?

No, I support them blocking roads as they were doing initially, I do not support them going on to carriageways as they have started doing as that will lead to something really seriously bad and fatal happening.

I have already said radical was maybe the wrong word to use, something with lesser implication, so maybe far-reaching would be a better term.

Older styles of protest and civil disobedience are deemed by this group to not be paid enough attention to by this group and I can understand why, because what has been achieved by doing them? Not a lot in recent times.

Is that clear enough?

Now for the millionth time, we aren’t going to agree, so stop dogging my posts on this thread.

[calumhibee1]

No, I support them blocking roads as they were doing initially, I do not support them going on to carriageways as they have started doing as that will lead to something really seriously bad and fatal happening.

I have already said radical was maybe the wrong word to use, something with lesser implication, so maybe far-reaching would be a better term.

Older styles of protest and civil disobedience are deemed by this group to not be paid enough attention to by this group and I can understand why, because what has been achieved by doing them? Not a lot in recent times.

Is that clear enough?

Now for the millionth time, we aren’t going to agree, so stop dogging my posts on this thread.

Blocking roads has been suggested numerous times as an alternative on this thread. People have suggested a load of times about blocking roads in city centres and you told us that nobody would hear about it other than taxi drivers and that it doesn’t work, now that’s the method of protest that you support :confused:

Never mind you and I agreeing, you don’t seem to agree with yourself.

[Jones28]

Blocking roads has been suggested numerous times as an alternative on this thread. People have suggested a load of times about blocking roads in city centres and you told us that nobody would hear about it other than taxi drivers and that it doesn’t work, now that’s the method of protest that you support :confused:

I’ve reiterated this point numerous times. Go back and look my posts if you want to find out.

[calumhibee1]

I’ve reiterated this point numerous times. Go back and look my posts if you want to find out.

Yes, you’ve reiterated it by shutting it down any time it was suggested :faf:

[Jones28]

Yes, you’ve reiterated it by shutting it down any time it was suggested :faf:

Seriously mate just leave it. It’s so boring and you’re clearly not reading what I’m writing so I’m out.

[Jones28]

Insulate Britain: Climate protester, 82, prepared to go to jail - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58676358)

Thought this was an interesting read from one of the protestors, especially the parts about emergency vehicles.

[Stairway 2 7]

Insulate Britain: Climate protester, 82, prepared to go to jail - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58676358)

Thought this was an interesting read from one of the protestors, especially the parts about emergency vehicles.

How will an ambulance get through the protesters on the m 25 superglued their hands to the pavement, she's deflecting from their biggest criticism.

Blocked Dover today
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewsForAllUK/status/1441316328254545922

[calumhibee1]

She’s trying to get people who are stuck waiting for appointments to phone ambulances? Ambulances to come and get them out a traffic jam to go to an appointment? :confused:

I see the police also reckon that these idiots are putting folk at a very high risk of death.

[Jones28]

How will an ambulance get through the protesters on the m 25 superglued their hands to the pavement, she's deflecting from their biggest criticism.

Blocked Dover today
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewsForAllUK/status/1441316328254545922

You’d have to ask her that? I just shared the article I’m not their ****ing spokesman.

[AugustaHibs]

You’d have to ask her that? I just shared the article I’m not their ****ing spokesman.

Calm down greta

[Jones28]

Calm down greta

Is that best you’ve got? 😂 it’s like being in P6

[lapsedhibee]

She’s trying to get people who are stuck waiting for appointments to phone ambulances? Ambulances to come and get them out a traffic jam to go to an appointment? :confused:


Not seen all the footage but at least some of it showed hard shoulders free for police to get to the head of the queue of traffic and start dissuading/arresting protesters.

[calumhibee1]

Calm down greta

:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

How am I defending to the hilt when I’m clearly saying they are going too far by going on to the carriageways?

Actually don’t bother responding. We aren’t going to agree so it’s a waste of time.

Defending it to the hilt=‘Not letting Callum have the last word’.
He absolutely has to have it, just watch and wait :greengrin

[Jones28]

Defending it to the hilt=‘Not letting Callum have the last word’.
He absolutely has to have it, just watch and wait :greengrin

I’ve bowed out already, it’s a pointless debate.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’ve bowed out already, it’s a pointless debate.

You bowed out by commenting on a thread that's last comment was you over 24 hours earlier. Sound

[Jones28]

You bowed out by commenting on a thread that's last comment was you over 24 hours earlier. Sound

Bowed out of debating with Calum. But aye, sound.

[lord bunberry]

Is that best you’ve got? 😂 it’s like being in P6
Come on it was funny. :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

https://metro-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/metro.co.uk/2021/10/04/insulate-britain-drivers-move-protestors-to-help-ambulance-through-15359474/amp/?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral

At it again, this time not moving for a paramedic who explained the emergency he was dealing with

[Hibrandenburg]

As predicted, this type of extreme action is turning people and the media against them and their cause. The rhetoric being used now will probably see people taking things into their own hands.

[Stairway 2 7]

The videos yesterday have millions of views each and 90% negative comments, not sure how it helps the cause. Not letting paramedics through yesterday, then one of the founders saying today he wouldn't let through an ambulance if there was someone dying in it

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/extinction-rebellion-founder-admits-would-25136898.amp?__twitter_impression=true

https://mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1444967088448282625
BREAKING: Furious motorists and a paramedic crew have pulled Insulate Britain activists out of the road at Wandsworth Bridge.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1444930127163531267
How can you be so selfish?!' This desperate motorist pleads with eco protesters blocking the entrance to the Blackwall Tunnel asking them to move so she can get to her sick mother in hospital.

[Sir David Gray]

https://metro-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/metro.co.uk/2021/10/04/insulate-britain-drivers-move-protestors-to-help-ambulance-through-15359474/amp/?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral

At it again, this time not moving for a paramedic who explained the emergency he was dealing with

Utter bampots.

[Sylar]

Doubt it'll be long before someone just ploughs through them.

I support everyone's right to protest and that extends to IB and ER (as much as I dislike them both, even as a climate scientist!), but their decision to disrupt normal peoples' lives is not a solution to the climate crisis. Individual action is a drop in the ocean to tackling climate action - they should be targeting the government or transnational corporations that are major emitters/can address their concerns.

Intentionally disrupting emergency services in the middle of a call-out should be a jailable offence IMO - injunctions aren't working.

[Jones28]

Any support I had for them has evaporated after this latest episode.

[He's here!]

Not surprised to hear that more and more motorists are starting to take things into their own hands:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58896047

[Ryan91]

Not surprised to hear that more and more motorists are starting to take things into their own hands:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58896047

Genuinely concerned now that a motorist somewhere will see red and will hit these protestors (and one motorist nearly did today it would seem), either seriously injuring or killing one or more of their number.

I hope that something like that doesn't happen as it's not good for anyone, but surely Insulate Britain has to see that actions like this are great for publicity and getting people talking about you, but pissing the public off could lead to events spiralling out of control and are endangering their own lives by doing so. If something like that were to happen everyone would remember Insulate Britain and their protests, but only because one of their own was killed by a car when they blocked a busy road.

I fully support Insulate Britain's aims, insulation of homes is a great energy and cost saving measure, but protests in such a manner aren't the way to build support among the wider public and result in the message being forgotten about in favour of blind anger from the public.

Protest in Whitehall, protest at Parliament, block Downing Street and prevent PM from going to parliament, perhaps then they might achieve something.

[lapsedhibee]

block Downing Street and prevent PM from going to parliament

Not sure that guy's too desperate to get in to work tbh ...

[Berwickhibby]

Genuinely concerned now that a motorist somewhere will see red and will hit these protestors (and one motorist nearly did today it would seem), either seriously injuring or killing one or more of their number.

I hope that something like that doesn't happen as it's not good for anyone, but surely Insulate Britain has to see that actions like this are great for publicity and getting people talking about you, but pissing the public off could lead to events spiralling out of control and are endangering their own lives by doing so. If something like that were to happen everyone would remember Insulate Britain and their protests, but only because one of their own was killed by a car when they blocked a busy road.

I fully support Insulate Britain's aims, insulation of homes is a great energy and cost saving measure, but protests in such a manner aren't the way to build support among the wider public and result in the message being forgotten about in favour of blind anger from the public.

Protest in Whitehall, protest at Parliament, block Downing Street and prevent PM from going to parliament, perhaps then they might achieve something.

You cannot walk or drive down Downing Street due to very large gates and Armed Police

[neil7908]

I work in the climate sector and am very supportive of their aims.

However, this is not the right way to go about it. In fact, it's pretty clear that it's counter productive to the extreme.

The Govt are just laughing at them. Ordinary punters, most of whom are actually quite open to the dangers of climate change, begin to feel distanced and averse to taking action as they don't want to be grouped with these fringe, radical elements.

There are loads better ways these folks can make a difference and help spread the message.

[CropleyWasGod]

I work in the climate sector and am very supportive of their aims.

However, this is not the right way to go about it. In fact, it's pretty clear that it's counter productive to the extreme.

The Govt are just laughing at them. Ordinary punters, most of whom are actually quite open to the dangers of climate change, begin to feel distanced and averse to taking action as they don't want to be grouped with these fringe, radical elements.

There are loads better ways these folks can make a difference and help spread the message.

Is there not a place for both "direct action" and "friendlier" means?

This type of action, after all, isn't really aimed at older people. It's aimed at younger generations, who will have more clout in society over the next 10-20 years. As for older people, it's sparked a debate (cf this thread) and raised awareness in a way that might not have happened otherwise.

[WoreTheGreen]

Why not block the airport on bozo return from hiding from the COVID report oh I mean paid for jolly

[hibsbollah]

I work in the climate sector and am very supportive of their aims.

However, this is not the right way to go about it. In fact, it's pretty clear that it's counter productive to the extreme.

The Govt are just laughing at them. Ordinary punters, most of whom are actually quite open to the dangers of climate change, begin to feel distanced and averse to taking action as they don't want to be grouped with these fringe, radical elements.

There are loads better ways these folks can make a difference and help spread the message.

I think you’ve accidentally made the opposite point; the Government is indeed just laughing at them. And assuming there are two aims 1. To pressurise Govts and corporations and 2. To influence individuals to change their consumer habits, what are the loads of better ways that you suggest, considering everything tried previously has failed either aim? It’s now clear that vested interests and lobby groups for fossil fuel companies have basically ****ed the normal democratic process, I’m not sure there ARE better ways to spread the message.

The media are no better, I’m still hearing a lot about ‘climate change’ in the media which has a nice gradual, natural sound to it, change is good right? Not climate crisis or climate emergency. Which is what is actually going on.

[neil7908]

I think you’ve accidentally made the opposite point; the Government is indeed just laughing at them. And assuming there are two aims 1. To pressurise Govts and corporations and 2. To influence individuals to change their consumer habits, what are the loads of better ways that you suggest, considering everything tried previously has failed either aim? It’s now clear that vested interests and lobby groups for fossil fuel companies have basically ****ed the normal democratic process, I’m not sure there ARE better ways to spread the message.

The media are no better, I’m still hearing a lot about ‘climate change’ in the media which has a nice gradual, natural sound to it, change is good right? Not climate crisis or climate emergency. Which is what is actually going on.

What evidence is there that their approach works? Is it based solely on a "there's no such thing as bad publicity" angle? I would love to see any stats on how the public feel about this and whether or not it's actually affecting change. It looks to me like exactly the opposite. People like me who already sympathise with them will keep doing what I'm doing and taking it seriously. Daily Mail readers will keep laughing them off as lunatics. And if their aim to pressure this Govt then they are just giving Boris the kind of stuff he laps up - Standing up for motorists against the looney left.

For point 2 of your list above, their website lists their whole aim as "Join the Insulate Britain Campaign to force the government to insulate Britain's leaky homes starting with social housing". Their is nothing about individuals.

[neil7908]

Is there not a place for both "direct action" and "friendlier" means?

This type of action, after all, isn't really aimed at older people. It's aimed at younger generations, who will have more clout in society over the next 10-20 years. As for older people, it's sparked a debate (cf this thread) and raised awareness in a way that might not have happened otherwise.

Again, I'm not convinced the "debate" they are sparking is leading to any eyes being opened on climate change. In fact, as I've said, I'm worried about the opposite effect here. This thread is a great example - is anyone changing their mind? Yes we're talking about them but it feels like it's just pushing people away from any common ground on the issue.

And when you say their action isn't aimed at at older people, I'm not so sure. They want the Govt to sign up for 2025 targets. That doesn't sound like an organisation with its eye on 20 years from now. Whilst I don't have an issue with direct action per se, I think targeted action is better. Its a bit like ER gluing themselves to trains in London. What is the message their to your average punter - don't take the train? I think these groups are just all over the place and I'm certainly not convinced the attention they are getting pushes a single person, corporation or politician one step closer to more meaningful action.

[hibsbollah]

What evidence is there that their approach works? Is it based solely on a "there's no such thing as bad publicity" angle? I would love to see any stats on how the public feel about this and whether or not it's actually affecting change. It looks to me like exactly the opposite. People like me who already sympathise with them will keep doing what I'm doing and taking it seriously. Daily Mail readers will keep laughing them off as lunatics. And if their aim to pressure this Govt then they are just giving Boris the kind of stuff he laps up - Standing up for motorists against the looney left.

For point 2 of your list above, their website lists their whole aim as "Join the Insulate Britain Campaign to force the government to insulate Britain's leaky homes starting with social housing". Their is nothing about individuals.

Absolute no evidence at all Im guessing. Because governments arent making significant changes yet, but I suppose the hope is that at some point they will. Political movements dont get results overnight. You can see the development of Greta Thunbergs public persona since the school strike thing started; as shes seen repeated promises and public announcements being broken, she sounds a lot more angry and radical and shrill. She gets laughed at too. Lots of memes out there. I doubt shes that bothered.

What are the moderate alternative things that you think can be done?

[Moulin Yarns]

You cannot walk or drive down Downing Street due to very large gates and Armed Police

And Boris has been affected because his deliveroo rider is stopped from entering downing Street 😂😂

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.cityam.com/sunak-causes-rift-cabinet-ev-discount-end/

Sunak wants to scrap the EV grant!

[Antifa Hibs]

https://www.cityam.com/sunak-causes-rift-cabinet-ev-discount-end/

Sunak wants to scrap the EV grant!

Good. For urban areas the focus should be shifting behaviour and mindset from car ownership to public transport, active travel and car clubs while increasing infrastructure and subsidises for those.

An electric car takes up the same space parked up or on a road as a ICE car.

[Ozyhibby]

Good. For urban areas the focus should be shifting behaviour and mindset from car ownership to public transport, active travel and car clubs while increasing infrastructure and subsidises for those.

An electric car takes up the same space parked up or on a road as a ICE car.

A stepping stone could be taxing larger cars a bit more to encourage people into smaller cars?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

A stepping stone could be taxing larger cars a bit more to encourage people into smaller cars?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And make public transport more efficient and affordable.

Scrapping the grant is a retrograde step, particularly for people who live in rural areas where public transport is often patchy at best.

[Jones28]

https://www.cityam.com/sunak-causes-rift-cabinet-ev-discount-end/

Sunak wants to scrap the EV grant!

A total backwards step and then some.

[lord bunberry]

Good. For urban areas the focus should be shifting behaviour and mindset from car ownership to public transport, active travel and car clubs while increasing infrastructure and subsidises for those.

An electric car takes up the same space parked up or on a road as a ICE car.

Trying to force people onto public transport won’t work. I can’t stand getting the bus, it’s slow, uncomfortable, unhygienic and occasionally full of complete nut jobs. Some people might be happy plunging the country back to the 1950s but I certainly am not.
If they want to cut subsidies for electric cars then do that but it still won’t stop people buying them. If an electric car produces zero emissions what’s the problem with them driving in the city centre?

[Ozyhibby]

Trying to force people onto public transport won’t work. I can’t stand getting the bus, it’s slow, uncomfortable, unhygienic and occasionally full of complete nut jobs. Some people might be happy plunging the country back to the 1950s but I certainly am not.
If they want to cut subsidies for electric cars then do that but it still won’t stop people buying them. If an electric car produces zero emissions what’s the problem with them driving in the city centre?

Congestion has a cost to society even without taking into consideration the emissions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

Congestion has a cost to society even without taking into consideration the emissions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lots of things have a cost to society that are considered acceptable. I understand the need to phase out internal combustion engines, but once that’s done it then just becomes anti car, which is the main aim of a lot of people who like to hide behind the environmental impact because it suits their agenda.

[Antifa Hibs]

Trying to force people onto public transport won’t work. I can’t stand getting the bus, it’s slow, uncomfortable, unhygienic and occasionally full of complete nut jobs. Some people might be happy plunging the country back to the 1950s but I certainly am not.
If they want to cut subsidies for electric cars then do that but it still won’t stop people buying them. If an electric car produces zero emissions what’s the problem with them driving in the city centre?

There's nothing manufactured ever that hasn't produced emissions. There will be an environmental impact on the manufacturing of the car. Until 100% of electricity in the UK is from renewables there will be an environmental impact when you're charging. The "zero emission" stuff is bollocks.

Point two. No-ones going to ban cars outright. But in our highest population cities and towns public transport has to be given priority. Further expansion of trams and commuter trains, more bus gates and bus lanes, more cycle lanes (much more cycle lanes). Then if you want to drive around Edinburgh (particularly at rush hour) or into Edinburgh from Fife or Midlothian by-passing train stations and P&R on the way then you should be paying a price for it.

"I don't get the bus as its too slow so I drive my car"

"Why's getting the bus to slow?"

"cos it gets stuck in traffic behind cars"

A bit like when another poster said we should get rid of the cycle lanes as he saw an ambulance get stuck in the traffic. What was the ambulance sandwiched in between.... about 100 cars. But lets blame bike lanes.


Couldn't make it up :crazy:

[Ozyhibby]

There's nothing manufactured ever that hasn't produced emissions. There will be an environmental impact on the manufacturing of the car. Until 100% of electricity in the UK is from renewables there will be an environmental impact when you're charging. The "zero emission" stuff is bollocks.

Point two. No-ones going to ban cars outright. But in our highest population cities and towns public transport has to be given priority. Further expansion of trams and commuter trains, more bus gates and bus lanes, more cycle lanes (much more cycle lanes). Then if you want to drive around Edinburgh (particularly at rush hour) or into Edinburgh from Fife or Midlothian by-passing train stations and P&R on the way then you should be paying a price for it.

"I don't get the bus as its too slow so I drive my car"

"Why's getting the bus to slow?"

"cos it gets stuck in traffic behind cars"

Couldn't make it up :crazy:

Agree. Cars slow down city life for everyone. Getting as many people as possible onto public transport is best but also the cars we do use do not need to be as big as they are and we can also start encouraging people to use electric bikes and Scooters.
I’m a hypocrite btw, although my car is part electric, it’s also pretty big and I do like a big car but I realise that it would be better if there were less of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

There's nothing manufactured ever that hasn't produced emissions. There will be an environmental impact on the manufacturing of the car. Until 100% of electricity in the UK is from renewables there will be an environmental impact when you're charging. The "zero emission" stuff is bollocks.

Point two. No-ones going to ban cars outright. But in our highest population cities and towns public transport has to be given priority. Further expansion of trams and commuter trains, more bus gates and bus lanes, more cycle lanes (much more cycle lanes). Then if you want to drive around Edinburgh (particularly at rush hour) or into Edinburgh from Fife or Midlothian by-passing train stations and P&R on the way then you should be paying a price for it.

"I don't get the bus as its too slow so I drive my car"

"Why's getting the bus to slow?"

"cos it gets stuck in traffic behind cars"

A bit like when another poster said we should get rid of the cycle lanes as he saw an ambulance get stuck in the traffic. What was the ambulance sandwiched in between.... about 100 cars. But lets blame bike lanes.


Couldn't make it up :crazy:
The bus is slow because it never takes the most direct route and it has to stop every 50 meters. It’s nothing to do with the amount of cars on the road. If you head along Prince’s Street around 5pm it’s complete gridlock and cars don’t drive there. Scotland has plans to be completely renewable by the time internal combustion vehicles are banned so they will be zero emission.

[Antifa Hibs]

The bus is slow because it never takes the most direct route and it has to stop every 50 meters. It’s nothing to do with the amount of cars on the road. If you head along Prince’s Street around 5pm it’s complete gridlock and cars don’t drive there. Scotland has plans to be completely renewable by the time internal combustion vehicles are banned so they will be zero emission.

Yet Princess Street with buses and trams only moves pretty well with no cars on the road. Compare that to the mound, north bridge or leith street where there are far less busses yet far more congestion due to the amount of cars.

Also there is no such thing as zero emission - it doesn't exist. Just because its emission free at the point of use doesn't mean its zero emission. Every single thing we manufacture or consume contributes somewhat to climate change.

[Moulin Yarns]

36% of greenhouse gas emissions in Scotland is from transport, 40% of greenhouse gas emissions is from cars.

[lord bunberry]

Yet Princess Street with buses and trams only moves pretty well with no cars on the road. Compare that to the mound, north bridge or leith street where there are far less busses yet far more congestion due to the amount of cars.

Also there is no such thing as zero emission - it doesn't exist. Just because its emission free at the point of use doesn't mean its zero emission. Every single thing we manufacture or consume contributes somewhat to climate change.

Of course everything we produce has a carbon footprint, but no one is suggesting we shut down manufacturing. Most sane people will agree that emissions need to be drastically cut, but some are determined to reverse the wheels of scientific progress in order to impose the idea of what the world should look like. I don’t want to be a vegan and have to give up my car, I’m quite happy to switch to an electric car, I’ll switch to an electric boiler, I’m looking into solar panels. This whole thing is starting to really annoy me if I’m being honest, I’m sick of guys like David Attenborough spouting off about climate change when he has been one of the worst contributors to it.

[wookie70]

Of course everything we produce has a carbon footprint, but no one is suggesting we shut down manufacturing. Most sane people will agree that emissions need to be drastically cut, but some are determined to reverse the wheels of scientific progress in order to impose the idea of what the world should look like. I don’t want to be a vegan and have to give up my car, I’m quite happy to switch to an electric car, I’ll switch to an electric boiler, I’m looking into solar panels. This whole thing is starting to really annoy me if I’m being honest, I’m sick of guys like David Attenborough spouting off about climate change when he has been one of the worst contributors to it.

Not sure how David Attenborough is one of the worst contributors of Climate Change. He has probably done more for the environment than any Government minister ever has.

I agree with you that everything has a carbon footprint though. EV cars definitely do but far less than their carbon fuelled alternatives. They won't be the final answer but they are a good stepping stone on the way especially if we can continue to get more energy from renewables. Scotland is in a great position but is way too slow getting turbines and other methods built imo.

I want to invest in solar too and buy and electric vehicle but need a decent sized one. Probably a couple of years away for me. Likewise I will get an electric boiler too.

The debate about congestion needs more thought than just public transport. Covid may help as many are no longer commuting and now is the time to be radical. I'd love to see some work done on looking at electric bikes and scooters. You see some zooming through traffic at 20mph but they are illegal. To me they look the perfect solution to city travel. They are quick, use very little energy, don't clog up roads and are accessible for more people than pedal cycles. I was in Sunderland and you can rent scooters to get about and it works very well. I cycled for quite a while on my 10 mile commute and it is surprising how often you can do it and stay dry. Most journeys could be completed on small electric vehicles which are personal and only designed to carry the person riding. EV are usually designed around 4 or more passengers and the majority of the time there is only one driver. Surely a solution for single driver vehicles makes more sense.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure how David Attenborough is one of the worst contributors of Climate Change. He has probably done more for the environment than any Government minister ever has.

I agree with you that everything has a carbon footprint though. EV cars definitely do but far less than their carbon fuelled alternatives. They won't be the final answer but they are a good stepping stone on the way especially if we can continue to get more energy from renewables. Scotland is in a great position but is way too slow getting turbines and other methods built imo.

I want to invest in solar too and buy and electric vehicle but need a decent sized one. Probably a couple of years away for me. Likewise I will get an electric boiler too.

The debate about congestion needs more thought than just public transport. Covid may help as many are no longer commuting and now is the time to be radical. I'd love to see some work done on looking at electric bikes and scooters. You see some zooming through traffic at 20mph but they are illegal. To me they look the perfect solution to city travel. They are quick, use very little energy, don't clog up roads and are accessible for more people than pedal cycles. I was in Sunderland and you can rent scooters to get about and it works very well. I cycled for quite a while on my 10 mile commute and it is surprising how often you can do it and stay dry. Most journeys could be completed on small electric vehicles which are personal and only designed to carry the person riding. EV are usually designed around 4 or more passengers and the majority of the time there is only one driver. Surely a solution for single driver vehicles makes more sense.

The Renault Twizy sounds ideal for that, with some modifications for winter, like doors!

[Stairway 2 7]

Fun animation here showing how green ev's are compared to fuel cars. Dirtier to make than fuel cars especially the mining needed for batteries. Probably 60%-70% less co2 than fuel cars emissions so shared or public transport definitely the way forward if possible.

@jburnmurdoch
Fantastic work here from FT's new Visual Storytelling TeamTrade mark sign, digging into how green electrical vehicles currently are compared to their combustion-engine cousins.

tl;dr: it depends...

Featuring amazing 3D models from
@ian_bott_artist
and
@caletilford

https://mobile.twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1445280543331979265

[stoneyburn hibs]

We all get it.
I'll be more interested in taking part when the middle class chugs and there well heeled offspring gtf.

[overdrive]

Can the police not get the water cannons out? Solve two problems in one go… move the protesters and give them a much needed wash!

[Antifa Hibs]

Can the police not get the water cannons out? Solve two problems in one go… move the protesters and give them a much needed wash!

Great response. Especially when you consider a water cannon needs a ****ing road to travel on - which would be blocked :cb


Of course everything we produce has a carbon footprint, but no one is suggesting we shut down manufacturing. Most sane people will agree that emissions need to be drastically cut, but some are determined to reverse the wheels of scientific progress in order to impose the idea of what the world should look like. I don’t want to be a vegan and have to give up my car, I’m quite happy to switch to an electric car, I’ll switch to an electric boiler, I’m looking into solar panels. This whole thing is starting to really annoy me if I’m being honest, I’m sick of guys like David Attenborough spouting off about climate change when he has been one of the worst contributors to it.

Boomer I take it? I've done this for X amount of time and because of that i'm self entitled and not changing for anything or anyone....?

Again - NO ONE IS SUGGESTING AN OUTRIGHT BAN OF CARS. BUT.... In our most largest and congested cities public transport and active travel must take priority. If you still want to drive fine, just take the long way round or wait in that que of traffic next to the bus or cycle lane.

[Antifa Hibs]

We all get it.
I'll be more interested in taking part when the middle class chugs and there well heeled offspring gtf.

What difference does it make? Someone can't be environmentally conscious because another person might have more income than them?

[Stairway 2 7]

Their argument was null and void with the public when they refused to move for the paramedic that was pleading with them. They should attach the front of a snow plow to ambulances so they can fire through them

[hibbydog]

36% of greenhouse gas emissions in Scotland is from transport, 40% of greenhouse gas emissions is from cars.

What?

Do you mean 40% of the 36% is from cars

[lord bunberry]

Great response. Especially when you consider a water cannon needs a ****ing road to travel on - which would be blocked :cb



Boomer I take it? I've done this for X amount of time and because of that i'm self entitled and not changing for anything or anyone....?

Again - NO ONE IS SUGGESTING AN OUTRIGHT BAN OF CARS. BUT.... In our most largest and congested cities public transport and active travel must take priority. If you still want to drive fine, just take the long way round or wait in that que of traffic next to the bus or cycle lane.
:rolleyes: No I’m not a boomer, I’m 46. I suspect city centres will become virtually car free in the next 10 years so you will have your wish. Already I don’t ever go into town other than for work, but I think it will be the final nail in the coffin for retailers.

[Ozyhibby]

:rolleyes: No I’m not a boomer, I’m 46. I suspect city centres will become virtually car free in the next 10 years so you will have your wish. Already I don’t ever go into town other than for work, but I think it will be the final nail in the coffin for retailers.

I’m sympathetic to you in that cars still have a future and we shouldn’t have to give them up. Just not in urban settings. And I think retailers in the city will thrive once it is a more pedestrian friendly place.
Personal travel into the centre of town will need to be by public transport or by electric bike, scooter or eVespa type scooter. The more people move to that, the more freely we’ll move around the city.


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[neil7908]

:rolleyes: No I’m not a boomer, I’m 46. I suspect city centres will become virtually car free in the next 10 years so you will have your wish. Already I don’t ever go into town other than for work, but I think it will be the final nail in the coffin for retailers.

To be honest, it's online shipping killing retailers. Next generation won't be driving cars into the city centre, even if there wasn't restrictions. Attitudes amongst the young towards driving are totally different. Owning a car was freedom in my parents age. Now it's expensive and largely unnecessary, not even thinking about the environment.

We need to have a real think about how to attract people to the high street. But easier access for cars (which means harder access for other forms of transport) is not the way to do it.

[tamig]

If electric scooters are to be legalised there should be tests for them. Some of the oddballs round about me scooting about on them are a menace. Quite a lot of the riders in my area seem to think its mandatory to be clad head to toe in black, no lights on in the dark, and you can use any side of the road you like while travelling.

[wookie70]

Looks like the Government paid no heed to the protestors and are determined to heat up people's homes and then let it all escape wasting energy and killing the planet in the process. I won't be surprised if there is an old chum, Uni mate, brother or Pub Landlord that has a serious investment in heat source pumps. Todays announcements are about 20 years too late and don't even go close to what is required.

[stu in nottingham]

I think many of us have been concerned about incidents escalating. This unsavoury scene seems to be a significant step to someone getting badly hurt in one of the protests.

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light. One might argue quite symbolic of the 'me first' world we have come to live in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/insulate-britain-protesters-drive-over-ve6be1d55

[wookie70]

I think many of us have been concerned about incidents escalating. This unsavoury scene seems to be a significant step to someone getting badly hurt in one of the protests.

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light. One might argue quite symbolic of the 'me first' world we have come to live in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/insulate-britain-protesters-drive-over-ve6be1d55

I hope they do escalate, I obviously don't want that to cause physical harm to anyone, but there is a hugely pressing issue and the protestors aims were the first point Caroline Lucas made today. They are on the right side of the argument as far as I am concerned and they have tried everything else and this government refuse to use the common sense. Today's announcement could easily have included a programme of insulation to ease tensions and to stop all the heat from heat source generators going out the window. This will be great for the middle classes but those who are struggling will gain little and the protestors appear to be the only loud voice standing up for those citizens.

[Mon Dieu4]

I hope they do escalate, I obviously don't want that to cause physical harm to anyone, but there is a hugely pressing issue and the protestors aims were the first point Caroline Lucas made today. They are on the right side of the argument as far as I am concerned and they have tried everything else and this government refuse to use the common sense. Today's announcement could easily have included a programme of insulation to ease tensions and to stop all the heat from heat source generators going out the window. This will be great for the middle classes but those who are struggling will gain little and the protestors appear to be the only loud voice standing up for those citizens.

First rule of any protest should be to get the public on your side, to do that you don't inconvenience every day people going about their day, protest at the seats of power like outside Downing Street or the Houses of Parliament and **** off the politician's that make the decisions, we are at the stage now where if they keep pissing off the public that they are going to A) lose public support and B) end up taking a dull one

[wookie70]

First rule of any protest should be to get the public on your side, to do that you don't inconvenience every day people going about their day, protest at the seats of power like outside Downing Street or the Houses of Parliament and **** off the politician's that make the decisions, we are at the stage now where if they keep pissing off the public that they are going to A) lose public support and B) end up taking a dull one

Tell that to the Train Drivers who are far better paid than their bus driver counterparts. The first rule of protest is to make your protest heard.

[lapsedhibee]

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light.
:agree:

[lord bunberry]

I think many of us have been concerned about incidents escalating. This unsavoury scene seems to be a significant step to someone getting badly hurt in one of the protests.

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light. One might argue quite symbolic of the 'me first' world we have come to live in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/insulate-britain-protesters-drive-over-ve6be1d55
I have to say I don’t blame her. It’s inevitable that this course of action is going to lead to someone getting seriously hurt by a vehicle or by getting beaten up by pissed off passers by.

[CropleyWasGod]

I have to say I don’t blame her. It’s inevitable that this course of action is going to lead to someone getting seriously hurt by a vehicle or by getting beaten up by pissed off passers by.

Would you feel the same if a pissed off commuter beat up a striking train driver next month?

[stu in nottingham]

I hope they do escalate, I obviously don't want that to cause physical harm to anyone, but there is a hugely pressing issue and the protestors aims were the first point Caroline Lucas made today. They are on the right side of the argument as far as I am concerned and they have tried everything else and this government refuse to use the common sense. Today's announcement could easily have included a programme of insulation to ease tensions and to stop all the heat from heat source generators going out the window. This will be great for the middle classes but those who are struggling will gain little and the protestors appear to be the only loud voice standing up for those citizens.

Like many, I wouldn't dispute the importance of the issues and broadly agree with the aims of the protesters. However, 'incidents escalating' does not necessarily equate to escalating the issues in my view. It means people getting seriously hurt or worse. In that way, I very much hope these incidents don't escalate. I do though hope they are able to further their cause. They won't do that by assuming that the Westminster government gives a jot about their welfare when they are engaging in their protests. In the main, they won't care less if several of them are hospitalised or killed by some hothead who can't control their rage. Indeed, I'd imagine them having a a satisfied smirk whilst watching working people turn on each other yet again instead of challenging the people who need to be held to account on these issues.
.
I have no idea what but there really has to be a smarter way of working than this. It feels ill-thought out and conceived. I feel also that although, yes, they have people's attention, so mission accomplished on that point. I think it's highly debatable whether the protesters aims are further on, quite the contrary sadly.

[stu in nottingham]

If electric scooters are to be legalised there should be tests for them. Some of the oddballs round about me scooting about on them are a menace. Quite a lot of the riders in my area seem to think its mandatory to be clad head to toe in black, no lights on in the dark, and you can use any side of the road you like while travelling.

We have had a major experiment with them for the last year here with hundreds of them on the city's streets. I have no strong opinions personally but it appears to have been problematic to say the least. This usually concerns riding on the pavement causing a problem for pedestrians and them being abandoned in places which cause an obstruction.

I'd like to see something like this become a successbut there seem more negatives. A friend who is registered blind tripped over one and hurt himself. He successfully sued the company, as many have apparently done.

Somebody made the point about the demographic using them which artually has a tendency to be younger people. The scooters can only be used in the (mainly walkable) inner city and so there's the question of actually adding to problems because these journeys would previously have largely been carried out on foot. One group of people who particularly seem to find them useful are local drug dealers, of whom more are now upwardly mobile!

[Sir David Gray]

I have to say I don’t blame her. It’s inevitable that this course of action is going to lead to someone getting seriously hurt by a vehicle or by getting beaten up by pissed off passers by.

I certainly don't condone her actions but I do understand her frustrations.

[The Modfather]

I think many of us have been concerned about incidents escalating. This unsavoury scene seems to be a significant step to someone getting badly hurt in one of the protests.

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light. One might argue quite symbolic of the 'me first' world we have come to live in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/insulate-britain-protesters-drive-over-ve6be1d55

I think the protestors come across just as poorly here. The woman was foolish to move forward and could have caused injury, but I actually have more sympathy with her in this example than I do the protestors. At the end of the day she’s just a Mum doing the school run. They are doing more harm to get me on side than they are persuading me. Despite broadly agreeing with their aims.

[stu in nottingham]

I think the protestors come across just as poorly here. The woman was foolish to move forward and could have caused injury, but I actually have more sympathy with her in this example than I do the protestors. At the end of the day she’s just a Mum doing the school run. They are doing more harm to get me on side than they are persuading me. Despite broadly agreeing with their aims.

Tend to agree.Saying that the driver shows herself up doesn't exclude the protesters from criticism as well. I'm concerned generally that people are going to get hurt and to that end the protesters are willingly putting theirselves in harm's way. I just don't think it's the answer.

[Kato]

People get hurt if protests are in earnest. Suffragettes died. Churchill, as home secretary, gave the police carte blanche to beat-up and sexually molest women protesters in one later protest as people were "getting fed-up" with the whole bother of it all.


I neither condemn nor condone what's going on as it doesn't matter a jot what I think.

I've never driven a car, always public transport for work, the wife does drive. There might be something bonkers about the protesters but drivers (some more than others obviously) can't exactly lay claim to being sensible.

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[Moulin Yarns]

I think many of us have been concerned about incidents escalating. This unsavoury scene seems to be a significant step to someone getting badly hurt in one of the protests.

Whatever one might think of the protesters' actions generally, this driver shows herself in a very poor light. One might argue quite symbolic of the 'me first' world we have come to live in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/insulate-britain-protesters-drive-over-ve6be1d55

That's obviously in a town, so you would think that the driver has wasted more of her precious time arguing with the protesters than if she had just found an alternative route.

[Pretty Boy]

Seeing that daft woman with her stupidly unnecessary car behaving like that probably make me feel more sympathy for the protestors if anything.

[Ozyhibby]

Seeing that daft woman with her stupidly unnecessary car behaving like that probably make me feel more sympathy for the protestors if anything.

Couldn’t agree more.


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