Energy crisis

[Santa Cruz]

That’s been a scandal for a long time. They pay far more for their electricity and Gas.


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Charges in this article show the difference and may have increased more since it was published in March.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/28/electricity-standing-charges-uk-energy-suppliers

[Stairway 2 7]

Charges in this article show the difference and may have increased more since it was published in March.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/28/electricity-standing-charges-uk-energy-suppliers

I didn't realise that £68 of the average £75 increase is for bailing out the other companies. Answers why you'll still have pay increased, if have renewable energy

[Swedish hibee]

Jeez, your almost at the prices I pay!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/stillgray/status/1541343407003803649

French police deal with protestors gluing themselves to the street differently to our police

[Stairway 2 7]

@MartinSLewis
NEWS:
I feel sick writing this!
I've just got the latest price cap predictions from
@CornwallInsight
. A huge spike in the key year-ahead wholesale price means

OCT cap prediction UP 64% (so £3,244/yr on typical bills)
JAN cap prediction UP 4% (so £3,363/yr)

It's horrendous. Especially as we're now near the end of the assessment period that sets Oct's cap, so this is the right ball park.

The Oct prediction is now £450/yr HIGHER than Ofgem mooted in May & that was what Sunak based the £400-£1,200/yr help on

[neil7908]

@MartinSLewis
NEWS:
I feel sick writing this!
I've just got the latest price cap predictions from
@CornwallInsight
. A huge spike in the key year-ahead wholesale price means

OCT cap prediction UP 64% (so £3,244/yr on typical bills)
JAN cap prediction UP 4% (so £3,363/yr)

It's horrendous. Especially as we're now near the end of the assessment period that sets Oct's cap, so this is the right ball park.

The Oct prediction is now £450/yr HIGHER than Ofgem mooted in May & that was what Sunak based the £400-£1,200/yr help on

It's going to be a really, really tough winter. Desperately hoping it's a mild one.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/the_tuc/status/1551501666003959809?s=21&t=YB4sOu_wDwKnFSHAUcG4RA


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[GlesgaeHibby]

https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1552333029951131648?t=W6A0cxKV4qT5rBmOg-fNxg&s=19

Price cap predicted to rise by 78% due to recent gas spikes. Going to be a truly horrific winter.

[The_Exile]

https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1552333029951131648?t=W6A0cxKV4qT5rBmOg-fNxg&s=19

Price cap predicted to rise by 78% due to recent gas spikes. Going to be a truly horrific winter.

That's 'eat or heat' territory for about a third of the UK population. By the time the new PM is in place it'll be too late, they need to offer something NOW to mitigate the effects.

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/the_tuc/status/1551501666003959809?s=21&t=YB4sOu_wDwKnFSHAUcG4RA


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey own our energy too, quite a chunk. The Family Silver being pawned has enabled French consumers to subsidised by UK consumers.

Part of the bill we pay means our peers in France get to pay less.

Always good with the economy the Tories, just not ours.

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[GlesgaeHibby]

That's 'eat or heat' territory for about a third of the UK population. By the time the new PM is in place it'll be too late, they need to offer something NOW to mitigate the effects.

Totally grim situation. I'd imagine the impact of this means that inflation isn't going to top out around 11% as predicted. Fully expect the Bank of England to continue their futile attempts to control this by further interest rate rises, which will exacerbate problems for more people.

[JohnM1875]

https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1552333029951131648?t=W6A0cxKV4qT5rBmOg-fNxg&s=19

Price cap predicted to rise by 78% due to recent gas spikes. Going to be a truly horrific winter.

Totally horrific. I quite simply can't pay any more than I currently am so I won't be.

[Kato]

Totally grim situation. I'd imagine the impact of this means that inflation isn't going to top out around 11% as predicted. Fully expect the Bank of England to continue their futile attempts to control this by further interest rate rises, which will exacerbate problems for more people.There will be the usual accompanying price increases across the board to follow, on the back of the recent rises.

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[Jones28]

I can’t quite believe the government think this is ok, and none of the two prospective prime ministers seem to want to do anything about it.

[Paul1642]

It’s going to get to unstable level pretty fast. Government is going to need to subsidise which will take money away from other places that also need it more than ever.

Hard times ahead.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s going to get to unstable level pretty fast. Government is going to need to subsidise which will take money away from other places that also need it more than ever.

Hard times ahead.

I see no way out for the UK. Things are starting to snowball already and the downward momentum will only increase in velocity.

[Smartie]

I see no way out for the UK. Things are starting to snowball already and the downward momentum will only increase in velocity.

No way out of what?

And why specifically the UK?

[wookie70]

How is an average family going to manage never mind anyone on minimum wage. I wonder what the real inflation figure is for normal people, it must be close to 20% when you look at basic food costs, rent, fuel etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

No way out of what?

And why specifically the UK?

No way out of the international finance crisis that imo has already started. The UK relies heavily on the service industry, over 75% of its GDP is created there and is the industry that is likely to take the largest hit in a crisis. Add to that that we've just turned our backs on our largest trading partner (around 40% of what we produce is traded with the EU) and it doesn't take a finacial expert to see that we aren't as robust as we have been previously. Also being led by donkeys who priorities the "haves" over the "have nots" is not exactly reassuring for the wider population of the UK.

Maybe I'm being over pessimistic, but if you have any rays of optimism, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Smartie]

No way out of the international finance crisis that imo has already started. The UK relies heavily on the service industry, over 75% of its GDP is created there and is the industry that is likely to take the largest hit in a crisis. Add to that that we've just turned our backs on our largest trading partner (around 40% of what we produce is traded with the EU) and it doesn't take a finacial expert to see that we aren't as robust as we have been previously. Also being led by donkeys who priorities the "haves" over the "have nots" is not exactly reassuring for the wider population of the UK.

Maybe I'm being over pessimistic, but if you have any rays of optimism, I'd be glad to hear them.

Sadly I don't and largely agree with everything you say.

The reason I asked about the UK specifically was that - whilst accept that Brexit is a catastrophe - almost every country seems to have a unique set of major challenges facing them and I wondered why we merited being specified. It's not exactly a ray of sunshine but I guess the fact that we're less reliant on Russian oil and gas helps us somewhat, plus that fact that we've taken decent strides in the renewable direction. I guess the relative open-mindedness when it comes to nuclear helps (not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but if it's going to be a proper crisis then I think we should be considering everything).

The biggest ray of sunshine I can probably offer is to reinforce the idea of cycles. We're about to go through a crappy part of a cycle. At some point we'll re-emerge. Often lessons are learnt - there's a chance the Tories might be booted out before long as people find out how much good they actually ever do them. We might make changes (the shift towards renewable energy and lowering general consumption) that we've known we've needed to make forever.

As long as nobody starts chucking nuclear weapons around, we'll weather the sort of downturn we expect to have to weather a few times over a lifetime and then emerge again at the other end in some shape or form.

[Paulie Walnuts]

How is an average family going to manage never mind anyone on minimum wage. I wonder what the real inflation figure is for normal people, it must be close to 20% when you look at basic food costs, rent, fuel etc.

Easily 20%.

My gas and electricity will have risen by at least 4x what I was paying in pre pandemic by the next price hike.

My car costs £87 to fill rather than £57 or so last year.

My food shop has went up significantly from this time last year

My fixed rate mortgage is up next year and I’ll get hammered with a ridiculous interest rate when that comes round.

Having a quick look back through my bank, I reckon my outgoings have went up about 25% in the last year without taking on anything extra and reducing considerable amounts of outgoings. Once the next price increase comes round it’ll prob be about 35%. Another one due in January after will probably tip me over 40%. And for the last 5 or 6 years I’ve had 1% pay rises at the absolute most, sometimes it’s been about 0.7%.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sadly I don't and largely agree with everything you say.

The reason I asked about the UK specifically was that - whilst accept that Brexit is a catastrophe - almost every country seems to have a unique set of major challenges facing them and I wondered why we merited being specified. It's not exactly a ray of sunshine but I guess the fact that we're less reliant on Russian oil and gas helps us somewhat, plus that fact that we've taken decent strides in the renewable direction. I guess the relative open-mindedness when it comes to nuclear helps (not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but if it's going to be a proper crisis then I think we should be considering everything).

The biggest ray of sunshine I can probably offer is to reinforce the idea of cycles. We're about to go through a crappy part of a cycle. At some point we'll re-emerge. Often lessons are learnt - there's a chance the Tories might be booted out before long as people find out how much good they actually ever do them. We might make changes (the shift towards renewable energy and lowering general consumption) that we've known we've needed to make forever.

As long as nobody starts chucking nuclear weapons around, we'll weather the sort of downturn we expect to have to weather a few times over a lifetime and then emerge again at the other end in some shape or form.

:agree: Although large energy concerns announcing record profits during a crisis shows that while UK consumers will likely have no energy shortages, they might not be able to afford it.

Here in Germany it's not looking pretty either. Our dependency on Russian gas and the fact that we don't know if that gas will be delivered or not makes it almost impossible to plan alternatives at this point in time. Germans are renowned for their efficiency in planning but are also terrible at flexibility which is what will be needed if gas deliveries throw a spanner in the works of their energy plans. Any economical crisis in Germany will have an impact in the whole EU and beyond.

Worrying times.

[wookie70]

Easily 20%.

My gas and electricity will have risen by at least 4x what I was paying in pre pandemic by the next price hike.

My car costs £87 to fill rather than £57 or so last year.

My food shop has went up significantly from this time last year

My fixed rate mortgage is up next year and I’ll get hammered with a ridiculous interest rate when that comes round.

Having a quick look back through my bank, I reckon my outgoings have went up about 25% in the last year without taking on anything extra and reducing considerable amounts of outgoings. Once the next price increase comes round it’ll prob be about 35%. Another one due in January after will probably tip me over 40%. And for the last 5 or 6 years I’ve had 1% pay rises at the absolute most, sometimes it’s been about 0.7%.

I can't understand why there isn't more analysis of inflation from an average wage perspective. I agree my 20% may be an underestimate and it really needs a figure we can use for wage awards etc. The Unions are actually asking for large pay cuts for members in real terms and still being seen as unreasonable

[Moulin Yarns]

Utterly speechless https://t.co/TaBmicER2c

Watch Martin Lewis.

And this!!!

Household energy bills of over £3,500 will be the norm in the UK from October. Meanwhile...Shell's profits hit a new all-time high of $11.5 billion in the second quarter, more than double the same period a year earlier. It's using the cash to launch a $6 billion share buyback

[Jones28]

Sadly I don't and largely agree with everything you say.

The reason I asked about the UK specifically was that - whilst accept that Brexit is a catastrophe - almost every country seems to have a unique set of major challenges facing them and I wondered why we merited being specified. It's not exactly a ray of sunshine but I guess the fact that we're less reliant on Russian oil and gas helps us somewhat, plus that fact that we've taken decent strides in the renewable direction. I guess the relative open-mindedness when it comes to nuclear helps (not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but if it's going to be a proper crisis then I think we should be considering everything).

The biggest ray of sunshine I can probably offer is to reinforce the idea of cycles. We're about to go through a crappy part of a cycle. At some point we'll re-emerge. Often lessons are learnt - there's a chance the Tories might be booted out before long as people find out how much good they actually ever do them. We might make changes (the shift towards renewable energy and lowering general consumption) that we've known we've needed to make forever.

As long as nobody starts chucking nuclear weapons around, we'll weather the sort of downturn we expect to have to weather a few times over a lifetime and then emerge again at the other end in some shape or form.

Thats how I feel as well, this cannot last forever. What I hold out hope for is radical re-form of the energy markets in the UK.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Thought the figure of gas from Russia was only 10% or thereabouts.
Seems like a total pisstake.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I see the RAC have said that there’s only one petrol station in Edinburgh that is selling fuel at a fair price.

Costco at Loanhead but you need a membership. Also no use to me as it would cost me well more than what I’ve saved to get from central Edinburgh to Costco!

Absolute profiteering from these companies whilst the Government watches on and does nothing.

[SHODAN]

Nationalise these ****ing parasites

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/RobinBrooksIIF/status/1552287552261959680

Robin Brooks
@RobinBrooksIIF
Germany's gas storage levels usually make it to 90% by late autumn. That gets Germany through the winter with Nordstream running at 100%. But Nordstream now is running at only 20%, so - even if storage levels were to somehow get to 90% - it just isn't enough. Rationing is coming

[The_Exile]

I feel a real proper winter of discontent gathering a head of steam, and I don’t just mean a few cars set alight in central London for a couple of nights. The most desperate set of issues in my lifetime, and there is no functioning government at the moment!! Wtf is going on?!!

[Stairway 2 7]

Wonder if the green levy is in danger on people's bills. If people can't heat their homes, they don't want to be paying towards green energy.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/how-will-households-receive-400-uk-government-energy-support-payment

Better than nothing, but, for me it equates to 1 months energy cost spread over 6 months!

[wookie70]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/how-will-households-receive-400-uk-government-energy-support-payment

Better than nothing, but, for me it equates to 1 months energy cost spread over 6 months!

Given the enormous extra profits being made by the gas and oil companies it is a drop in the ocean. Hopefully this winter will see working people realise that the game is completely rigged and working hard counts for nothing. Get essential goods, services and infrastructure back in public ownership and used for the benefit of everyone.

[Stairway 2 7]

Given the enormous extra profits being made by the gas and oil companies it is a drop in the ocean. Hopefully this winter will see working people realise that the game is completely rigged and working hard counts for nothing. Get essential goods, services and infrastructure back in public ownership and used for the benefit of everyone.

British gas made a loss last year and 1.3 billion profit this. It would be less than 50 quid to each home a year if it was divided, the problem runs deeper. A large part of our bills also is spent bailing out the failed companies last year, there's a green levy and soaring gas prices. It's a rock and a hard place, we could frack and open up cambo, that would help but environmentally unsound

[Ozyhibby]

British gas made a loss last year and 1.3 billion profit this. It would be less than 50 quid to each home a year if it was divided, the problem runs deeper. A large part of our bills also is spent bailing out the failed companies last year, there's a green levy and soaring gas prices. It's a rock and a hard place, we could frack and open up cambo, that would help but environmentally unsound

Would fracking and Cambo really help if we are paying global prices anyway? We have oil in Scotland but petrol is no cheaper here than in many countries with no oil.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Would fracking and Cambo really help if we are paying global prices anyway? We have oil in Scotland but petrol is no cheaper here than in many countries with no oil.


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American gas is much cheaper primarily because the huge amount of fracking it does. It would definitely lower bills, but the debate is how much is available in Britain and the environmental cost.

[Stairway 2 7]

Big statistical issue here, with real-world impact: if the rebate is treated as a reduction in energy costs, measured inflation will be (maybe quite a bit) lower than if it's treated as a benefit.


@ChrisGiles_
· 44m
Unsaid in this article, the ⁦@hmtreasury⁩ is both trying to get money to people in monthly instalments and to persuade ⁦@ONS⁩ to classify the support as a discount, so lowering the peak of inflation https://bbc.co.uk/news/business-62338543

[ronaldo7]

The United kingdom today, where people are now organising, warm banks. These are spaces which will be kept warm for people who can't heat their houses.

[Callum_62]

The United kingdom today, where people are now organising, warm banks. These are spaces which will be kept warm for people who can't heat their houses.Thank good to pending prime minister will make it there priority to fix that, and the health service and the eduction service and the.....

You'd think given the same party has governed for 12 odd years that would all be humming along nicely



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[Renfrew_Hibby]

American gas is much cheaper primarily because the huge amount of fracking it does. It would definitely lower bills, but the debate is how much is available in Britain and the environmental cost.

Yeah vast swathes of basically empty rural Oklahoma and the like can be fracked without impacting too many people but they are wanting to frack right under places like Blackpool!
I've got an apocalyptic vision of Blackpool Tower crashing onto the beach in an end game vision of the destruction of life as we know it.

[Pretty Boy]

It feels as though we are on the verge of things coming to a head soon. Even the 'backing Boris' types will start to ask questions when their energy costs top £3K a year

I'm 36 so as an adult missed much of the 'good times' under New Labour. Most of my responsible adulthood has been under a cloud of a global economic meltdown, a decade of austerity that followed, inflation outstripping wage rises, house prices running away from the average wage at an ever increasing rate. a pandemic, Brexit etc etc. The promises of the good times always seem to be just another referendum or election away. 'Vote to leave a better world for your children and grandchildren'. Obviously we all want that but I wouldn't mind a little something for myself right now as well thank you very much.

I'm just angry now. It's an absolutely ****ed up system that sees a company clearing billions in profit, paying out dividends and bonuses and the product they supply is so expensive that people are choosing between using it or eating. The idea inflation is 'only' 9% or whatever is just ****ing nonsense. The poorest are being hit hardest as the very basics are seeing price rises that way outstrip 95. That figure might be accurate when you include the wide array of items in the 'basket of goods' but for real people on the ground it's dried pasta and cheap meat that matters.

I'm at the point where I almost refuse to engage with people who defend the status quo. It's so obvious that they can only be coming at it from an 'I'm alright Jack' angle that any debate is pointless.

[Stairway 2 7]

Vat is a small slice but could be cut, profits not huge either just now. The only real cut could be the green levy, 25% of our electricity bill goes to environmental causes. Government really need to just add some debt and give people another payment. We should also be spending big on power generation. I'd prefer nuclear like France to top up renewable, but this will take years to help

[Hibrandenburg]

It feels as though we are on the verge of things coming to a head soon. Even the 'backing Boris' types will start to ask questions when their energy costs top £3K a year

I'm 36 so as an adult missed much of the 'good times' under New Labour. Most of my responsible adulthood has been under a cloud of a global economic meltdown, a decade of austerity that followed, inflation outstripping wage rises, house prices running away from the average wage at an ever increasing rate. a pandemic, Brexit etc etc. The promises of the good times always seem to be just another referendum or election away. 'Vote to leave a better world for your children and grandchildren'. Obviously we all want that but I wouldn't mind a little something for myself right now as well thank you very much.

I'm just angry now. It's an absolutely ****ed up system that sees a company clearing billions in profit, paying out dividends and bonuses and the product they supply is so expensive that people are choosing between using it or eating. The idea inflation is 'only' 9% or whatever is just ****ing nonsense. The poorest are being hit hardest as the very basics are seeing price rises that way outstrip 95. That figure might be accurate when you include the wide array of items in the 'basket of goods' but for real people on the ground it's dried pasta and cheap meat that matters.

I'm at the point where I almost refuse to engage with people who defend the status quo. It's so obvious that they can only be coming at it from an 'I'm alright Jack' angle that any debate is pointless.

I think the Boris types will continue to worship Boris. He wasn't held to account by them for the mess that is Brexit, instead the remoaners are to blame for not getting aboard HMS Self Mutilation. Likewise the blame for the coming crisis will be laid firmly at the feet of those who usurped King Boris. By getting out before the excrement comes into contact with a ventilation device, Boris will continue to be seen in a positive light by many amongst the hard of thinking.

[Northernhibee]

I think the Boris types will continue to worship Boris. He wasn't held to account by them for the mess that is Brexit, instead the remoaners are to blame for not getting aboard HMS Self Mutilation. Likewise the blame for the coming crisis will be laid firmly at the feet of those who usurped King Boris. By getting out before the excrement comes into contact with a ventilation device, Boris will continue to be seen in a positive light by many amongst the hard of thinking.

I fear where this goes if there is mass civil disobedience, either through general strikes, protests or mass non payment. There are some ********s who will not see any bad in Johnson or the Tories and are entrenched in their positions.

[Helensburghhibs]

Questions need to be asked why we don't go for a green strategy topped up with nuclear..... That would nullify this shambles that links everything to the price of crude oil

[Eaststand]

The United kingdom today, where people are now organising, warm banks. These are spaces which will be kept warm for people who can't heat their houses.

All I can say is thank God we have such a caring government in Westminster headed by a PM who is thought by some to have been doing a wonderful job leading the government.

Imagine the state we would all be in if it wasn't for 'Big Dog' and his litter running things the way they do 🐶

GGTTH

[Ozyhibby]

Questions need to be asked why we don't go for a green strategy topped up with nuclear..... That would nullify this shambles that links everything to the price of crude oil

We should. I don’t see Scotland ever going with Nuclear but Scotland isn’t the issue anyway as we produce enough power for our needs anyway. Ownership structure probably needs looked at though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We should. I don’t see Scotland ever going with Nuclear but Scotland isn’t the issue anyway as we produce enough power for our needs anyway. Ownership structure probably needs looked at though.


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We only produce 50% of the energy we use

[Moulin Yarns]

We only produce 50% of the energy we use

Really?

https://fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

[Stairway 2 7]

Really?

https://fullfact.org/environment/scotland-renewable-energy/

Yeah although we produce the equivalent of 100% of our energy from renewables almost half is exported out of Scotland. We import alot. Guess one problem is most houses are heated by gas. If we could get homes away from gas and improve renewable storage we'd be fine, but that's decades away

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah although we produce the equivalent of 100% of our energy from renewables almost half is exported out of Scotland. We import alot. Guess one problem is most houses are heated by gas. If we could get homes away from gas and improve renewable storage we'd be fine, but that's decades away

My original point was we produce more energy than we use. Nothing about renewables. What do we import?


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[Stairway 2 7]

My original point was we produce more energy than we use. Nothing about renewables. What do we import?


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I was talking about the reply i quoted which is about electricity. I can't remember but we import something like 2tw of electricity, we don't produce enough gas

[Ozyhibby]

I was talking about the reply i quoted which is about electricity. I can't remember but we import something like 2tw of electricity, we don't produce enough gas

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220729/977cd4b73ae5da696394fe517963d38a.jpg


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220729/977cd4b73ae5da696394fe517963d38a.jpg


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It was talking about the link he posted it was about renewables. But separately we do import a decent amount of our gas from abroad, last I read it was about 50%. Grangemouth gets most of its gas from American shale

[Ozyhibby]

It was talking about the link he posted it was about renewables. But separately we do import a decent amount of our gas from abroad, last I read it was about 50%. Grangemouth gets most of its gas from American shale

And we export more. Scotland is a net energy exporter.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

I fear where this goes if there is mass civil disobedience, either through general strikes, protests or mass non payment. There are some ********s who will not see any bad in Johnson or the Tories and are entrenched in their positions.

There is nothing to fear, it's coming and not before time.
Power to the people.

[Stairway 2 7]

And we export more. Scotland is a net energy exporter.


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Yep we export about 50% of the energy we make. Once everyone goes electric we'll be laughing, a real money spinner. Cars will be a few decades to phase out, but central heating might be a while

[Moulin Yarns]

It was talking about the link he posted it was about renewables. But separately we do import a decent amount of our gas from abroad, last I read it was about 50%. Grangemouth gets most of its gas from American shale

The fracked gas that arrives at grangemouth is used almost exclusively in the plastic industry. Wrong kind of gas kind of thing.

[Stairway 2 7]

The fracked gas that arrives at grangemouth is used almost exclusively in the plastic industry. Wrong kind of gas kind of thing.

It's still gas we buy and in huge amounts. That's why ineos wants to frack in Scotland so it doesn't have to buy from America, its fracked gas from the states. Its got the rights to, but hasn't been able to get the license from scot gov. We also buy gas for homes

[Hibrandenburg]

Yep we export about 50% of the energy we make. Once everyone goes electric we'll be laughing, a real money spinner. Cars will be a few decades to phase out, but central heating might be a while

I've just driven along a stretch of Autobahn that has been electrified for trucks and buses. Looks like Germany is investing in electricity.

[Stairway 2 7]

I've just driven along a stretch of Autobahn that has been electrified for trucks and buses. Looks like Germany is investing in electricity.

We're going in the right direction on vehicles. Needs money spent on infrastructure, better batteries, cheaper prices and charge points in streets, particularly for tenements and flats. Will be very different in a few decades in the west. We're further away on heating homes, going to be some job and price to change every house to electricity.

All this is placing a plaster on a gun shot wound if places like China India and Nigeria don't do the same mind

[Ozyhibby]

I've just driven along a stretch of Autobahn that has been electrified for trucks and buses. Looks like Germany is investing in electricity.

Wow, that’s impressive. Didn’t think that was possible.[emoji106]


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[Hibrandenburg]

Wow, that’s impressive. Didn’t think that was possible.[emoji106]


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If I read the sign correctly (I was doing 190kph so might have missed something :greengrin ) it's a trial Autobahn looking at the viability of running vehicles using overhead power lines.

[Andy Bee]

I've just driven along a stretch of Autobahn that has been electrified for trucks and buses. Looks like Germany is investing in electricity.

South Korea do something similar but using solar panels in the center of the motorway, they generate enough to light the motorway and for car chargers along the route. It's also a cycle path below the panels. We're so so far behind some countries. The Netherlands have a similar system.

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/south-korean-20-mile-solar-bike-highway-generates-electricity

[xyz23jc]

Wow, that’s impressive. Didn’t think that was possible.[emoji106]


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Norway also has electric ferries and rechanging points for them too! :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Norway also has electric ferries and rechanging points for them too! :agree:

Shouldn’t be a problem for us to knock up a couple of ferries quick sharp.[emoji106][emoji51][emoji23]


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[xyz23jc]

Shouldn’t be a problem for us to knock up a couple of ferries quick sharp.[emoji106][emoji51][emoji23]


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Probs need to knock up a few to send down to Dover, what with taking back control and all that, eh? :wink::greengrin:thumbsup:

[Callum_62]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/bp-profits-triple-as-brits-endure-soaring-energy-prices/

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[Moulin Yarns]

Was at tesco in Perth this morning and noticed petrol and diesel is back to a more reasonable £1.72 and £1.85

[SHODAN]

https://dontpay.uk/

[Jones28]

was at tesco in perth this morning and noticed petrol and diesel is back to a slightly less expensive but still ****ing outrageous £1.72 and £1.85


ftfy

[Keith_M]

Just been reading about the massive profits being made by the likes of Shell and find it totally shocking that governments are allowing them to continue to fleece the public with their prices.

I didn't realise that most of the contracts for Oil are agreed up to five years beforehand, so they're basically making us pay now for future rises in price.

[Moulin Yarns]

ftfy

True, although it was £2 for diesel a couple of weeks ago.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220803/595c026476844959812f9c8b01b14c86.jpg

Our glorious United Kingdom.[emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

https://dontpay.uk/

If you can’t pay, or just support the campaign, pressurise your MSP or MSP to raise it. It’s less than two months away.

[Sylar]

Got our renewed tarrif quote through from EOn Next today - their fixed rate tariff was quoting me £482 a month in direct debit for dual-fuel.

Utterly unaffordable and we're a pretty solid medium-high income household - truly fearful for low-income, no-income households over the coming months.

I truly hope the new Tory Government will be dealing with mass riots in the months ahead.

[KeithTheHibby]

Got our renewed tarrif quote through from EOn Next today - their fixed rate tariff was quoting me £482 a month in direct debit for dual-fuel.

Utterly unaffordable and we're a pretty solid medium-high income household - truly fearful for low-income, no-income households over the coming months.

I truly hope the new Tory Government will be dealing with mass riots in the months ahead.


Out of interest what was your DD before all this **** started?

[Sylar]

Out of interest what was your DD before all this **** started?

£182 from memory? Certainly sub-£200 a month.

[Callum_62]

Got our renewed tarrif quote through from EOn Next today - their fixed rate tariff was quoting me £482 a month in direct debit for dual-fuel.

Utterly unaffordable and we're a pretty solid medium-high income household - truly fearful for low-income, no-income households over the coming months.

I truly hope the new Tory Government will be dealing with mass riots in the months ahead.Surley no one is fixing at they rates though?

Some of the quotes on fixed in getting far far outstrip my current spend

Sure my bills have went up massively but nothing like the fixed quotes

I

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[Col2]

OVO energy. Was paying £210 up to April.

Upped it to £400 per month (fixed rate offer was laughed at by us at £610). Variable rate suggested £425. Now a 78% increase would suggest about £750 from October.

Fixed rate offer as at today is £816 for one year or £986 for two years.

The maths doesn’t work. Either the fixed rates are so overly loaded or OVO know something this rest of us don’t. I get the risk levels are much higher. But almost £1000 a month for gas and electricity is bonkers.

The government need to cap this at a lower level and take out a COVID style borrowing. People will literally die in the back of this. Some might never recover.

I get the don’t pay campaign and some just can’t and some won’t even if they can. But the reality is the derby will fall on everyone else. Prices will increase further.

This is the single biggest issue economically this country has had signs I was born. BOE, Ofgem and UK Govt doing literally **** all to help.

[Stairway 2 7]

What happened to the Scottish national energy company, is it gone for good

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14b4f4c6-1360-11ed-b5dc-213f5c972cc4?shareToken=a69a2e71972a946ab5772721cd aa3e0c

Energy crisis could become a poll tax moment
Tory leadership candidates seem blissfully unaware of the unrest that may await them in the autumn as bills soar

[Jones28]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14b4f4c6-1360-11ed-b5dc-213f5c972cc4?shareToken=a69a2e71972a946ab5772721cd aa3e0c

Energy crisis could become a poll tax moment
Tory leadership candidates seem blissfully unaware of the unrest that may await them in the autumn as bills soar

While I don't agree with a blanket refusal to pay, I don't see how anyone can afford the kind of increases being talked about.

I had a look at Uswitch, the only option for switching from my current deal was Scottish Power, who wanted to double my payment that I'm paying to Bulb.

I could afford that, by giving up luxuries like food and fuel.

[Ozyhibby]

While I don't agree with a blanket refusal to pay, I don't see how anyone can afford the kind of increases being talked about.

I had a look at Uswitch, the only option for switching from my current deal was Scottish Power, who wanted to double my payment that I'm paying to Bulb.

I could afford that, by giving up luxuries like food and fuel.

I think it’s the same for everyone. We will def be putting on extra layers this year and sitting with the duvet on the couch while watching TV this winter.


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[Ozyhibby]

What happened to the Scottish national energy company, is it gone for good

There was no money to set it up and the SG doesn’t have the power to nationalise energy.


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[James310]

There was no money to set it up and the SG doesn’t have the power to nationalise energy.


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Lol, so why announce it at a SNP conference to huge applause if you always knew you could never do it? Why spend half a million pounds with a consultancy firm if you knew it could never be done?

[marinello59]

There was no money to set it up and the SG doesn’t have the power to nationalise energy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The plan wasn’t dropped due to a lack of money.

[Stairway 2 7]

One thing I liked from the article is Germany stopping hot water in public buildings. Since it doesn't make any difference to how good it cleans your hands, hot water is surely a luxury no one needs. Must be a massive gas use uk wide

[Just Alf]

What happened to the Scottish national energy company, is it gone for goodDue to be in place by 2025, was supposed to have some interim progress towards it by now though.

[James310]

Has anyone got a heat pump?

Gas boilers may be banned in new builds from 2024 and in all houses from 2030 I believe.

[Stairway 2 7]

Has anyone got a heat pump?

Gas boilers may be banned in new builds from 2024 and in all houses from 2030 I believe.

Going to be a massive cost to households changing, but needed

[marinello59]

Going to be a massive cost to households changing, but needed

Aye, has to be done. Hopefully electric boilers will provide a solution for many, they are getting better.

[Moulin Yarns]

The plan wasn’t dropped due to a lack of money.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58677769

In their 2021 manifesto, the SNP said that work on the public energy company had been "halted" during the pandemic, and efforts were being "refocused" on a public energy agency.


It said the agency would "coordinate and accelerate" the delivery of heat and energy efficiency work as well as "informing and educating" the public on required changes.



There have been fresh calls to revive the plan by SNP activists, but when asked if the Scottish government had dropped it altogether, Energy Secretary Michael Matheson said the party "had not anticipated" as great a need for decarbonisation in 2017.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58677769

Doubt that would have solved the problem anyway then. They would still be paying the wholesale price. If it was a national generating company then that might have helped.


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[Callum_62]

Has anyone got a heat pump?

Gas boilers may be banned in new builds from 2024 and in all houses from 2030 I believe.Don't have one now but did have one in New Zealand (Air source wall mounted)

Used more for cooling than heating to be fair

Worked really well and were used regularly down south during really cold winters

Interested in it here but cost will likley be prohibitive

Will likley increase our solar panels, get battery storage and eventually a heat pump

Probaly need to be done incrementally though

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Scorrie]

Am actively looking at electric heat pump for the house. Still quite expensive but the payback time has plummeted given the price of gas. Houses need better insulation first though. A massive housing retrofit programme would help address fuel poverty, reduce carbon emissions and create thousands of jobs. A complete no brainer I would have thought… but then I see who we have in charge.

[grunt]

Houses need better insulation first though. Wonder what happened after 2010 to change things ...?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZTAHttWQAAPDtV?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Andy Bee]

I'm going to grab myself a log burner, I've a mate with a farm who'll supply a bulk bag of fire wood for £40 delivered and estimates 4 bags will do the year. Not the best for the environment but needs must and all that.

I've got a property being renovated with absolutely nobody living in it at the moment, there's no kitchen fitted yet, heating is renewed but not being used, no running hot water yet, builders are using battery tools in daylight so no lights and I've been emailed to say I need to up my DD of £20 as I'm £114 in debit. WTAF

[Colr]

Just been reading about the massive profits being made by the likes of Shell and find it totally shocking that governments are allowing them to continue to fleece the public with their prices.

I didn't realise that most of the contracts for Oil are agreed up to five years beforehand, so they're basically making us pay now for future rises in price.

Lots of company’s are doing very well out of this. This additional profit is going to shareholders. Guess who is running the economy? They do it (like brext) to make sure the elite stay elite, the hedge funds (Odey and Rees-mogg) profit and they continue to skim profits off all of us by privatising public services.

The social democratic system is dead in the UK.

[Colr]

Am actively looking at electric heat pump for the house. Still quite expensive but the payback time has plummeted given the price of gas. Houses need better insulation first though. A massive housing retrofit programme would help address fuel poverty, reduce carbon emissions and create thousands of jobs. A complete no brainer I would have thought… but then I see who we have in charge.

You can fit them as a hybrid in older houses. The price will come down further.

Hydrogen is to be mixed in with gas shortly but this will not be any cheaper. Once it get past 20% we’ll all need to change our boilers!

[hibsbollah]

While I don't agree with a blanket refusal to pay


Can I ask why you don’t agree?

[Ozyhibby]

I’ll be paying but I’ll hopefully be using a lot less. There will be millions this winter who simply cannot pay though. This will creat a massive debt crisis in this country and a huge recession is now firmly on the way.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I'm going to grab myself a log burner, I've a mate with a farm who'll supply a bulk bag of fire wood for £40 delivered and estimates 4 bags will do the year. Not the best for the environment but needs must and all that.

I've got a property being renovated with absolutely nobody living in it at the moment, there's no kitchen fitted yet, heating is renewed but not being used, no running hot water yet, builders are using battery tools in daylight so no lights and I've been emailed to say I need to up my DD of £20 as I'm £114 in debit. WTAF

I have log burners, and have only bought one load from a local estate when I was running out in 2020. I've still got some of it. I mainly use my own trees and coppice them in rotation. If you have a big enough garden, grow some Ash, Hazel, Birch and Willow.

[Moulin Yarns]

I’ll be paying but I’ll hopefully be using a lot less. There will be millions this winter who simply cannot pay though. This will creat a massive debt crisis in this country and a huge recession is now firmly on the way.


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I've started unplugging electronics at night, even the wee light on the telly and clock displays use electricity.

[lapsedhibee]

I've started unplugging electronics at night, even the wee light on the telly and clock displays use electricity.

Someone in the papers recently recommended switching off your wi-fi router when not using it, but my understanding has been that this habit can upset the stability/reliability of your regular broadband speed.

[Jones28]

Can I ask why you don’t agree?

I think if people refused to pay outright the people it would affect the most are the people that work for the energy companies in their call centers.

Gas and electricity have a value as a "commodity", and I think it all needs to be paid for by the end user, but there's a limit to what that should be and it certainly shouldn't be for profit.

[Jones28]

Don't have one now but did have one in New Zealand (Air source wall mounted)

Used more for cooling than heating to be fair

Worked really well and were used regularly down south during really cold winters

Interested in it here but cost will likley be prohibitive

Will likley increase our solar panels, get battery storage and eventually a heat pump

Probaly need to be done incrementally though

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk


Hi Callum, can you reccomend a company to install and a rough cost please?

I have a south facing roof that would be perfect for solar and space for battery storage.

[Hiber-nation]

There's something quite satisfying in piling up the clothes washing and the dishes as opposed to doing them regularly. As well as saving money it gets a bit of the tidiness OCD out of me.

[Stairway 2 7]

People on pre payment metres the worst effected, can't chose to not pay or they will be without. I like the idea of people trying something and not paying. But I'm not sure it won't make it worse, when they have to repay it on top of already huge bill

[Ozyhibby]

People on pre payment metres the worst effected, can't chose to not pay or they will be without. I like the idea of people trying something and not paying. But I'm not sure it won't make it worse, when they have to repay it on top of already huge bill

And if you don’t pay, you’ll find yourself on a pre-payment meter quick sharp. After that you will always be paying more for your energy. Your credit file will be toast, so no mortgages, car loans, credit cards etc. You’ll even end up on a pre paid mobile phone.
I don’t think this is great advice for people. The best advice I would give people is really cut back on what you use. It will be uncomfortable but in the long run it will be better for you. The only way to bring these prices down is to lower demand to meet the restricted supply.


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[easty]

And if you don’t pay, you’ll find yourself on a pre-payment meter quick sharp. After that you will always be paying more for your energy. Your credit file will be toast, so no mortgages, car loans, credit cards etc. You’ll even end up on a pre paid mobile phone.
I don’t think this is great advice for people. The best advice I would give people is really cut back on what you use. It will be uncomfortable but in the long run it will be better for you. The only way to bring these prices down is to lower demand to meet the restricted supply.


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They can only put you on a pre-payment meter if you let them in your house.

[Ozyhibby]

They can only put you on a pre-payment meter if you let them in your house.

If your meter is in your house? Some peoples are on the outside.
I’m only giving my opinion and I think advising people to just not pay will only result long term harm for them.


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[archie]

And if you don’t pay, you’ll find yourself on a pre-payment meter quick sharp. After that you will always be paying more for your energy. Your credit file will be toast, so no mortgages, car loans, credit cards etc. You’ll even end up on a pre paid mobile phone.
I don’t think this is great advice for people. The best advice I would give people is really cut back on what you use. It will be uncomfortable but in the long run it will be better for you. The only way to bring these prices down is to lower demand to meet the restricted supply.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAgree in the short term, but there needs t be some hard, long term thinking about how we go forward. Renewables will have a huge role to play, but it's unclear that this will be enough.

[archie]

If your meter is in your house? Some peoples are on the outside.
I’m only giving my opinion and I think advising people to just not pay will only result long term harm for them.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI get the rage here, but I would be very careful about advising people to just not pay. I accept that if this is a mass campaign it will have an impact, but there are huge debt, credit rating and access to cheapest packages issues going forward.

[Stairway 2 7]

This disaster happened probably 30 years to early for Scotland. It will be a huge expensive effort to change every car and heating system to electric, god knows how people will afford too. But post that Scotland will be laughing. 100% renewable and exporting.

[archie]

Doubt that would have solved the problem anyway then. They would still be paying the wholesale price. If it was a national generating company then that might have helped.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBullet dodged. It is predicated on the notion that energy companies make huge profits. They do, but this is due to scale. It's a bit like Amazon. Their margins are really tight, but the sell so much they make a fortune. Evidence for this? The collapse of smaller energy companies, including publicly backed ones.

[archie]

This disaster happened probably 30 years to early for Scotland. It will be a huge expensive effort to change every car and heating system to electric, god knows how people will afford too. But post that Scotland will be laughing. 100% renewable and exporting.Are you sure about that?

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you sure about that?

What part. When we switch fully to electric power in 30 years I'm confident it will be fully renewable. Battery storage is the last hurdle, output is there. Nuclear will do until then

[Stairway 2 7]

Bullet dodged. It is predicated on the notion that energy companies make huge profits. They do, but this is due to scale. It's a bit like Amazon. Their margins are really tight, but the sell so much they make a fortune. Evidence for this? The collapse of smaller energy companies, including publicly backed ones.

Yeah bps profits would only be £40 per home per year if divided. Its galling but not the cause of the problem. Green levies are about 25% of our electricity bill, surely that can go for a few years and give some breathing room

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ACJSissons/status/1555305559561224194

A thread on the only positive of the next really bad two years, could be a speeding of a greener future

[Moulin Yarns]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ACJSissons/status/1555305559561224194

A thread on the only positive of the next really bad two years, could be a speeding of a greener future

You say that you want to get rid of the green levy on fuel bills, but you want a green future. Do you see the irony?

[Smartie]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ACJSissons/status/1555305559561224194

A thread on the only positive of the next really bad two years, could be a speeding of a greener future

TBH that's what I've been thinking.

It's sometimes difficult to make a necessary change without it having been first instigated by pain of some sort.

Not pretending that the next few years are going to be easy (I think they're going to be hell) but there's a part of me that thinks they might actually somehow end up leading us to a better place, somewhere we've known deep down that we've needed to go for a while.

[Ozyhibby]

TBH that's what I've been thinking.

It's sometimes difficult to make a necessary change without it having been first instigated by pain of some sort.

Not pretending that the next few years are going to be easy (I think they're going to be hell) but there's a part of me that thinks they might actually somehow end up leading us to a better place, somewhere we've known deep down that we've needed to go for a while.

I wouldn’t discount the Tories massively increasing coal, oil and gas production.


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[Stairway 2 7]

You say that you want to get rid of the green levy on fuel bills, but you want a green future. Do you see the irony?

Not really. People might starve or die of the cold this winter. They can't afford to 25% of their electricity bill on a green levy. The government could step up and cover that and build debt, but I don't think people can afford it as its a huge amount.

The levy is a small part of going green the bigger picture is moving fully to renewables

[Moulin Yarns]

Not really. People might starve or die of the cold this winter. They can't afford to 25% of their electricity bill on a green levy. The government could step up and cover that and build debt, but I don't think people can afford it as its a huge amount.

The levy is a small part of going green the bigger picture is moving fully to renewables

Cut VAT from all fuel costs.


Green levy, the truth.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/green-levies-why-scrapping-them-wouldnt-lower-your-bills-as-much-as-claimed-12619655

https://fullfact.org/economy/green-levies/

[grunt]

I wouldn’t discount the Tories massively increasing coal, oil and gas production.

:agree:

Liz Truss on the Sky News head to head with Sunak, says she will maximise the extraction of oil and gas from the North Sea to ease the energy crisis. So goodbye green revolution and of course this is another reason why she doesn't want an independent Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

Cut VAT from all fuel costs.


Green levy, the truth.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/green-levies-why-scrapping-them-wouldnt-lower-your-bills-as-much-as-claimed-12619655

https://fullfact.org/economy/green-levies/

You think cutting 10% of a 3500 a year bill won't help. Vat should be cut too. If we take away the fuel companies profits as has been said that will take £40 a year

Your full fact article says they take up 25% of electricity but 8% of fuel, I said electricity

[Jones28]

Cut VAT from all fuel costs.


Green levy, the truth.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/green-levies-why-scrapping-them-wouldnt-lower-your-bills-as-much-as-claimed-12619655

https://fullfact.org/economy/green-levies/

Is VAT on fuel not only 5%?

It barely scratches the surface of a £3000 bill.

[Stairway 2 7]

This is ofgens projections. Surely cut off the green levy for a couple of years until fuel expected to fall

26089

[Jones28]

This is ofgens projections. Surely cut off the green levy for a couple of years until fuel expected to fall

26088

This is the boat I'm in, **** the green levy until I can afford to pay it.

[Pretty Boy]

The issue with heat pumps, solar panels, electric boilers etc is that some of those in the most vulnerable situations, renters and particularly social renters, simply don't have that choice. If a private or HA landlord isn't responsible for household bills are they going to lay out a vast amount of capital expenditure to ease the fuel bill burden for their tenants? I'm just a little bit sceptical.

It's an issue that needed a national strategy several years ago. I remember attending a sitting of the Scottish parliament when the SSP still had seats and the Greens were a fringe party. The debate was on energy strategy and they called for infrastructure investment then, this was over a decade ago. They were mocked, laughed at and jeered by MSPs from ALL the major parties. They don't look so silly however many years later.

That ship has sailed in the short term though. Simply not paying again just disproportionately impacts those least able to afford it. The inevitable debt burden and hit to their credit history exacerbates future price increases on all utilities and borrowing. Whatever the solution a damn site more than £400 is needed.

[grunt]

This is ofgens projections. Surely cut off the green levy for a couple of years until fuel expected to fall
1. I don't trust the Tories that any cut will be temporary.
2. Yeah, we'll just delay global warming until we get out of this cost of living crisis.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://dysonenergyservices.co.uk/what-is-the-green-levy/

What does the green levy pay for? Looks like a lot of people need the help that comes from the green levy.

[Moulin Yarns]

You think cutting 10% of a 3500 a year bill won't help. Vat should be cut too. If we take away the fuel companies profits as has been said that will take £40 a year

Your full fact article says they take up 25% of electricity but 8% of fuel, I said electricity

That's way out of date!! 25% was 2 years ago, it's dropped since then, as pointed out in the articles. The tory who claimed it was 25% has been corrected.

12% of electricity bills, 9% dual fuel bills!!

[Ozyhibby]

You have to wonder where Scotland is going wrong given we are an energy exporter, why we have some of the highest energy bills in Europe.
Something has went seriously wrong here and it appears decisions are not being taken for our benefit.


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[Stairway 2 7]

1. I don't trust the Tories that any cut will be temporary.
2. Yeah, we'll just delay global warming until we get out of this cost of living crisis.

I wholeheartedly agree with the green levy but at least means test it. People will starve and freeze this winter it's about priorities. People living and being able to pay bills now trumps one green program. Or even better the government pays it for two years, because many literally can't pay it

[grunt]

I wholeheartedly agree with the green levy but at least means test it. People will starve and freeze this winter it's about priorities. People living and being able to pay bills now trumps one green program. Or even better the government pays it for two years, because many literally can't pay itOf course I agree that something should be done. But I fear the impending attack on actions to address global warming.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's way out of date!! 25% was 2 years ago, it's dropped since then, as pointed out in the articles. The tory who claimed it was 25% has been corrected.

12% of electricity bills, 9% dual fuel bills!!

So 9% of an average 3500 bill, take away the profits and vat and were getting somewhere, as we can't stop wholesale price which the rise pretty much is.

It's seems very I'm alright Jack for environmentalists who can afford it, to push for people who might literally freeze to pay the levy

[Stairway 2 7]

Of course I agree that something should be done. But I fear the impending attack on actions to address global warming.

Something like 75% of world emissions comes from just 100 companies I read. So them putting the onus on us takes the p really, it's always us that suffers for them

[Ozyhibby]

We could start by building a lot more windmills have them publicly owned so that the market price is no longer an issue.
The situation right now is that the price of electricity and the cost of producing it are miles apart.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We shouldn't have sold of a chunk of Scotland sea bed this year

[Moulin Yarns]

https://dysonenergyservices.co.uk/what-is-the-green-levy/

What does the green levy pay for? Looks like a lot of people need the help that comes from the green levy.

Here’s a few quick statistics on the Energy Company Obligation (ECO Scheme):



ECO alone has delivered 3.1m insulation, heating and other measures to over 2.3m households.
ECO is primarily focused on the most vulnerable in our society – delivering estimated average cost savings of £290 per year for those households.
It is expected that the total cost savings delivered by ECO3, the current iteration of the
scheme, are worth £8.253b




Like everything, TAX and VAT is added to the bill which equates to a larger percentage than the 8% Green Levy

[Ozyhibby]

We shouldn't have sold of a chunk of Scotland sea bed this year

Didn’t we only lease it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Here’s a few quick statistics on the Energy Company Obligation (ECO Scheme):



ECO alone has delivered 3.1m insulation, heating and other measures to over 2.3m households.
ECO is primarily focused on the most vulnerable in our society – delivering estimated average cost savings of £290 per year for those households.
It is expected that the total cost savings delivered by ECO3, the current iteration of the
scheme, are worth £8.253b




Like everything, TAX and VAT is added to the bill which equates to a larger percentage than the 8% Green Levy

Which is all very good as I've said. But when people are going to starve to death this summer it should be waved, means tested or paid by the government

[Stairway 2 7]

Didn’t we only lease it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah but long term lease to companies like shell and BP. In danger of doing the same mistakes as with the oil and giving profits to conglomerates

[archie]

What part. When we switch fully to electric power in 30 years I'm confident it will be fully renewable. Battery storage is the last hurdle, output is there. Nuclear will do until thenI think the general thrust is right, but predicting tech 30 years into the future is really difficult.
- I think we probably will sort out energy storage, but the assumption is that renewables will be cheaper than other sources. If not, would you allow access to other sources of generated electricity?
- The move to EVs can help with the storage issue, but there will still be a significant uptick in demand for electricity. So that would need a huge amount of redundancy built into the system to allow for times when renewables can't meet supply. Unless we allow other sources of supply.
- This is underpinned by access to lithium and particularly cobolt. The latter has a particular significance given scarcity and geopolitical moves to control access. But we might have different battery technologies by then.
- There may well be developments in nuclear fusion, which might be a gamechanger on the waste issue.

But fundamentally, we can't assume that everyone else will stand still over the next 30 years. We won't be alone in developing energy supply responses. There is a real question about the cost of supporting renewables given the constitutional question. Currently renewable generated electricity has a guaranteed price. We'd need to look at this and how to sustain whatever constitutional arrangements are in place. Also, if we are to be in the EU, how do we stop people in Scotland buying cheaper imports of electricity which might not come from sustainable sources? And on exports, having a surplus does not, in itself, mean that people will buy it. They might, but availability of supply and price will be key here. If countries can secure it cheaper than we can produce then why would they buy electricity produced in Scotland?

[archie]

Here’s a few quick statistics on the Energy Company Obligation (ECO Scheme):



ECO alone has delivered 3.1m insulation, heating and other measures to over 2.3m households.
ECO is primarily focused on the most vulnerable in our society – delivering estimated average cost savings of £290 per year for those households.
It is expected that the total cost savings delivered by ECO3, the current iteration of the
scheme, are worth £8.253b




Like everything, TAX and VAT is added to the bill which equates to a larger percentage than the 8% Green LevyThe ECO scheme is a great thing and has it's roots in quite an elegant political fix. But I suspect much of the low hanging fruit is gone. I do think there is an issue in that it is, in effect, a regressive tax on consumers. I think it's legitimate to look at this in the light of exploding energy bills.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think the general thrust is right, but predicting tech 30 years into the future is really difficult.
- I think we probably will sort out energy storage, but the assumption is that renewables will be cheaper than other sources. If not, would you allow access to other sources of generated electricity?
- The move to EVs can help with the storage issue, but there will still be a significant uptick in demand for electricity. So that would need a huge amount of redundancy built into the system to allow for times when renewables can't meet supply. Unless we allow other sources of supply.
- This is underpinned by access to lithium and particularly cobolt. The latter has a particular significance given scarcity and geopolitical moves to control access. But we might have different battery technologies by then.
- There may well be developments in nuclear fusion, which might be a gamechanger on the waste issue.

But fundamentally, we can't assume that everyone else will stand still over the next 30 years. We won't be alone in developing energy supply responses. There is a real question about the cost of supporting renewables given the constitutional question. Currently renewable generated electricity has a guaranteed price. We'd need to look at this and how to sustain whatever constitutional arrangements are in place. Also, if we are to be in the EU, how do we stop people in Scotland buying cheaper imports of electricity which might not come from sustainable sources? And on exports, having a surplus does not, in itself, mean that people will buy it. They might, but availability of supply and price will be key here. If countries can secure it cheaper than we can produce then why would they buy electricity produced in Scotland?

Yes everything is based on assumption but I think we're in a strong position but you make good points. The lithium and cobalt mining is conveniently underreported. Causing huge problems in some South American countries.

[archie]

We could start by building a lot more windmills have them publicly owned so that the market price is no longer an issue.
The situation right now is that the price of electricity and the cost of producing it are miles apart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you mean by this? How is the gap between price and production cost miles apart? How would building windmills separate supply from market costs?

[DH1875]

# Work to live not live to work.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/richardjmurphy/status/1555466755094503424?s=21&t=G31t4DHQZxf0f9bOMoW3OQ

A thread to cheer people up.[emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

What do you mean by this? How is the gap between price and production cost miles apart? How would building windmills separate supply from market costs?

The cost of getting oil out of the North Sea has not changed anywhere near the same level that the price of oil has changed.
If we had a state owned oil company right now we would not be worried at all about oil prices. In fact it would just mean a massive bump to the public finances. I doubt the Norwegians are worried about high energy costs right now. That’s because they haven’t given away all their oil to rich people.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/296896327_10166623341560693_6043981545440644554_n. jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=Q52rP1MeR2EAX9VQRAa&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8OoqnP1tQ2TGEiN_1g1Vp6fkTZYaXhAmcGVnKuoUa-Lw&oe=62F1C6F7

[James310]

I doubt the Norwegians are worried about high energy costs right now.



https://www.thelocal.no/20220801/norways-prime-minister-warns-that-high-energy-prices-could-continue-for-years/


Skyrocketing energy prices in Norway could continue for up to three years, Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre warned on Sunday.

https://www.thelocal.com/20220803/could-norway-take-new-steps-to-address-high-energy-prices/


Norway’s Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre is under increasing pressure to take additional action on sky-rocketing energy prices.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thelocal.no/20220801/norways-prime-minister-warns-that-high-energy-prices-could-continue-for-years/


Skyrocketing energy prices in Norway could continue for up to three years, Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre warned on Sunday.

https://www.thelocal.com/20220803/could-norway-take-new-steps-to-address-high-energy-prices/


Norway’s Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre is under increasing pressure to take additional action on sky-rocketing energy prices.

At the risk of annoying you, do you know what it is per kwh in Norway and the EU average and the UK? For comparison.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thelocal.no/20220801/norways-prime-minister-warns-that-high-energy-prices-could-continue-for-years/


Skyrocketing energy prices in Norway could continue for up to three years, Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre warned on Sunday.

https://www.thelocal.com/20220803/could-norway-take-new-steps-to-address-high-energy-prices/


Norway’s Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre is under increasing pressure to take additional action on sky-rocketing energy prices.

Wish we had their worries. The article you shared says the govt subsidise their energy costs by 90% over a certain level.


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[Stairway 2 7]

At the risk of annoying you, do you know what it is per kwh in Norway and the EU average and the UK? For comparison.

Gas prices 26090

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220805/79b4aae8eb01c09c0204fea30c0e6f10.jpg


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[Moulin Yarns]

Gas prices 26090

I've never bought kwh electricity by the barrel, have you?

[Stairway 2 7]

I've never bought kwh electricity by the barrel, have you?

But this is about norways oil and gas reserves not electricity. The fact is some of these nations are producers like us and Norway. But scandavian prices much higher than us and Spain. We've one of the lowest in Western Europe

[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220805/79b4aae8eb01c09c0204fea30c0e6f10.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The opposite of not worrying, if they weren't worried no packages would be required. 🤣 They are worried hence action is required.

Your original point was as Norway has lots of oil they don't worry about energy. Obviously not true.

[Ozyhibby]

The opposite of not worrying, if they weren't worried no packages would be required. [emoji1787] They are worried hence action is required.

6p kWh. [emoji102]
Check your next bill.[emoji23]


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[Zambernardi1875]

The opposite of not worrying, if they weren't worried no packages would be required. 🤣 They are worried hence action is required.

Your original point was as Norway has lots of oil they don't worry about energy. Obviously not true.

That is clearly not what he said

[Moulin Yarns]

But this is about norways oil and gas reserves not electricity. The fact is some of these nations are producers like us and Norway. But scandavian prices much higher than us and Spain. We've one of the lowest in Western Europe

The articles that James provided links to are specifically about Electricity


Støre met on Tuesday with Labour mayors to discuss high energy prices. Oil and Energy Minister Terje Aasland also attended the talks, which came after the Labour mayors in Kristiansand and Stavanger criticised the PM and demanded new measures (https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/ap-ordforere-gar-ut-mot-egen-regjering-_-krever-nye-stromtiltak-1.16054575)to deal with rising electricity prices.


The government has had a subsidy scheme in place since last year that covers 90 percent of the portion of the energy bill where the electricity price was above 70 øre per kWh. The subsidy scheme has been raised from 55 percent and 80 percent of the bill following pressure.


Electricity prices have continually hit record levels in the southern part of Norway.

So again, if possible, can someone compare kwh prices across the UK, the EU and Norway?


EDIT: Thanks OZ. Is that for real?

[Stairway 2 7]

The articles that James provided links to are specifically about Electricity






So again, if possible, can someone compare kwh prices across the UK, the EU and Norway?


EDIT: Thanks OZ. Is that for real?
I think the debate should be about gas and oil not electricity. There's no reason there electricity prices should be much lower than ours, as ours is from renewables and nuclear. If it is there should be questions. The debate should be is there gas and oil cheaper as they didn't sell off the rights. Gas is certainly dearer so I'm guessing it's down to tax

[Moulin Yarns]

The articles that James provided links to are specifically about Electricity







So again, if possible, can someone compare kwh prices across the UK, the EU and Norway?


EDIT: Thanks OZ. Is that for real?

OK, so I've checked my bill from Bulb, 19.877p/kwh night and 29.08p/kwh day. Give me Norway's 'problems' anyday!!

[archie]

The cost of getting oil out of the North Sea has not changed anywhere near the same level that the price of oil has changed.
If we had a state owned oil company right now we would not be worried at all about oil prices. In fact it would just mean a massive bump to the public finances. I doubt the Norwegians are worried about high energy costs right now. That’s because they haven’t given away all their oil to rich people.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm confused. Your original point was about windmills? BTW, Labour did set up a state owned oil company. Tories sold it off.

[archie]

I think the debate should be about gas and oil not electricity. There's no reason there electricity prices should be much lower than ours, as ours is from renewables and nuclear. If it is there should be questions. The debate should be is there gas and oil cheaper as they didn't sell off the rights. Gas is certainly dearer so I'm guessing it's down to taxLook at the generation mix here. Gas is dominant. https://grid.iamkate.com/

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/sime0nstylites/status/1555813258157768705?s=21&t=4quQgJiAlQMJyZlNOKVdbQ

Thread on the coming problem. A national campaign to reduce demand is needed right now.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/sime0nstylites/status/1555813258157768705?s=21&t=4quQgJiAlQMJyZlNOKVdbQ

Thread on the coming problem. A national campaign to reduce demand is needed right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country or get the message across. In another thread I said I thought it was a good idea Germany is looking at stopping hot water for hand washing in public buildings. Seems a no brainer as doesn't effect effectiveness and would surely save loads in every public building in UK. Just simple things like saying put your thermostat down or driving at optimum speed.

[lapsedhibee]

Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country or get the message across. In another thread I said I thought it was a good idea Germany is looking at stopping hot water for hand washing in public buildings. Seems a no brainer as doesn't effect effectiveness and would surely save loads in every public building in UK. Just simple things like saying put your thermostat down or driving at optimum speed.

:worms:

[Jamesie]

Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country or get the message across. In another thread I said I thought it was a good idea Germany is looking at stopping hot water for hand washing in public buildings. Seems a no brainer as doesn't effect effectiveness and would surely save loads in every public building in UK. Just simple things like saying put your thermostat down or driving at optimum speed.

Hibs have been ahead of the game in this for at least a decade in the East Stand :wink: Not just a green club by colours :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country or get the message across. In another thread I said I thought it was a good idea Germany is looking at stopping hot water for hand washing in public buildings. Seems a no brainer as doesn't effect effectiveness and would surely save loads in every public building in UK. Just simple things like saying put your thermostat down or driving at optimum speed.


Here’s a few quick statistics on the Energy Company Obligation (ECO Scheme):



ECO alone has delivered 3.1m insulation, heating and other measures to over 2.3m households.
ECO is primarily focused on the most vulnerable in our society – delivering estimated average cost savings of £290 per year for those households.
It is expected that the total cost savings delivered by ECO3, the current iteration of the
scheme, are worth £8.253b.
The Insulation Assurance Authority (IAA) stated in their latest report that retrofitted properties have collectively saved £6.2 billion

While it refers to cost savings, it translates into reducing consumption.

I've seen retrofitting of insulation to the outside of whole estates in Perth, paid for by SSE.

[Stairway 2 7]

Here’s a few quick statistics on the Energy Company Obligation (ECO Scheme):



ECO alone has delivered 3.1m insulation, heating and other measures to over 2.3m households.
ECO is primarily focused on the most vulnerable in our society – delivering estimated average cost savings of £290 per year for those households.
It is expected that the total cost savings delivered by ECO3, the current iteration of the
scheme, are worth £8.253b.
The Insulation Assurance Authority (IAA) stated in their latest report that retrofitted properties have collectively saved £6.2 billion

While it refers to cost savings, it translates into reducing consumption.

I've seen retrofitting of insulation to the outside of whole estates in Perth, paid for by SSE.

As I've said all great things but should be means tested, why should a millionaire pay the same % as a single mum

[Moulin Yarns]

As I've said all great things but should be means tested, why should a millionaire pay the same % as a single mum

You said Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country.

I was just pointing out that we are. North Muirton in Perth is a council house estate which has been retrofitted insulation, certainly no millionaires living there.

[Stairway 2 7]

You said Really good thread baffling we are doing nothing to conserve energy in this country.

I was just pointing out that we are. North Muirton in Perth is a council house estate which has been retrofitted insulation, certainly no millionaires living there.

But the poor paid for it at the same % as the millionaires in barnton. Surely you agree it should be means tested. Some people are choosing to heat or eat and getting told to pay towards green policy.

[archie]

But the poor paid for it at the same % as the millionaires in barnton. Surely you agree it should be means tested. Some people are choosing to heat or eat and getting told to pay towards green policy.Depends on the prime objective. If you want to reduce emissions then it doesn't matter what the the income of the people using the energy is. In addition, when it observed that poor people don't always take the money savings of having energy efficieny measures. They may take more comfort. The general pronciple that it's effectively a regressive tax is true, but sometimes you can't hit every target with a programme. But making it a regulatory requirement has driven a lot of the success in implementation.

[Stairway 2 7]

Depends on the prime objective. If you want to reduce emissions then it doesn't matter what the the income of the people using the energy is. In addition, when it observed that poor people don't always take the money savings of having energy efficieny measures. They may take more comfort. The general pronciple that it's effectively a regressive tax is true, but sometimes you can't hit every target with a programme. But making it a regulatory requirement has driven a lot of the success in implementation.

No objective is more important than people freezing this winter, giving up there lives to save lives in the future. Easy to say when you're not in the risk of starvation that everyone should pay an equal %. Appalling asking people who can't pay to be paying this just now. Just my opinion and won't solve the disaster regardless as just a slice of the problem

[archie]

No objective is more important than people freezing this winter, giving up there lives to save lives in the future. Easy to say when you're not in the risk of starvation that everyone should pay an equal %. Appalling asking people who can't pay to be paying this just now. Just my opinion and won't solve the disaster regardless as just a slice of the problemHold on - I don't disagree with you on the fuel poverty aspect. I was only making the point that the ECO was set up in a particular way to meet a primary objective. You can't expect a single policy objective to meet every problem. FWIW I think there should be targetted support for people to help them with energy bills - as a short term measure. The various supports are getting better at this, but it's not always easy to do. The council tax rebate was an extremely crude mechanism that was, in my view, spead too widely. It also suffered from the inherant problem with council tax that it doesn't reflect income except at the lowest level.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Read an article in the i saying the price cap could rise to £4,700 in April.

I'm not his biggest fan, but Gordon Brown is spot on that the PM, chancellor and leadership candidates need to be working flat out to address this issue now.

[lapsedhibee]

Read an article in the i saying the price cap could rise to £4,700 in April.

I'm not his biggest fan, but Gordon Brown is spot on that the PM, chancellor and leadership candidates need to be working flat out to address this issue now.

Brown apparently did work through the night during financial crises past. Whereas Johnson's cabinet toils 'night and day' to move 'heaven and earth' to 'get things done'. Government by three word slogans, nothing more.

[Pretty Boy]

Read an article in the i saying the price cap could rise to £4,700 in April.

I'm not his biggest fan, but Gordon Brown is spot on that the PM, chancellor and leadership candidates need to be working flat out to address this issue now.

If there is one thing you can be assured of is that this govt will delay making any kind of decision until it's way too late then cobble something together that they have to u turn on almost instantly.

The best example would be the extension to the furlough scheme in November 2020. They swore it wouldn't be extended, then announced something wholly unfit for purpose then at the very lasts econd reintroduced something broadly comparable with what had gone before with a phased introduction of employer contributions. That delay irreversibly damaged adherence to lockdown as people lost all belief that the govt would support those unable to work through no fault of their own. People were literally hours away from facing a near complete cessation of income before sense prevailed.

We'll see Truss, who looks almost certain to be the new PM, play to her audience and continue to make pledges about 'no more handouts' and the like for a few months yet. By the time she wakes up a huge chunk of the damage will be done.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/06/fuel-poverty-is-creating-a-left-out-generation-that-will-never-recover-from-the-scars

Fuel poverty is creating a left-out generation that will never recover from the scars
Gordon Brown

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/06/fuel-poverty-is-creating-a-left-out-generation-that-will-never-recover-from-the-scars

Fuel poverty is creating a left-out generation that will never recover from the scars
Gordon Brown

Says the man who wants Scotland to go down with the sinking UK ship.[emoji849]


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[SHODAN]

https://wesayenough.co.uk/

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/political_alans/status/1556640885043073025?s=21&t=uqyaPyjhCU3oaXZhjx-xiA

SG trying to get action on this but I fear that the UK doesn’t care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

This is ofgens projections. Surely cut off the green levy for a couple of years until fuel expected to fall


This is the boat I'm in, **** the green levy until I can afford to pay it.

Ok. Somebody posted their business utility bill on Twitter - see below. I really don't think that cutting the climate change levy is going to make that much difference, if this is an example of its impact on the overall bill.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZfVUMjWIAERQHg?format=jpg&name=large

[Stairway 2 7]

Ok. Somebody posted their business utility bill on Twitter - see below. I really don't think that cutting the climate change levy is going to make that much difference, if this is an example of its impact on the overall bill.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZfVUMjWIAERQHg?format=jpg&name=large

It's almost 10% of your combined bill 25% of electricity bill.

If the average is going to 4500 a year, 450 or so would be a help. Take vat on top of that. The real killer is wholesale costs obviously

[grunt]

It's almost 10% of your combined bill 25% of electricity bill.But it's only 2% of the bill I posted?

[Stairway 2 7]

But it's only 2% of the bill I posted?

Not sure if different on business accounts. It's on average 9% for home bills

[Stairway 2 7]

This is from ofgen
26113

[grunt]

Not sure if different on business accounts. It's on average 9% for home bills
Really? I looked on my bill and couldn't see it.
Wikipedia (I know) says this:


The Climate Change Levy (CCL) is a tax on energy delivered to non-domestic users in the United Kingdom

Is it wrong?

[Stairway 2 7]

Really? I looked on my bill and couldn't see it.
Wikipedia (I know) says this:



Is it wrong?

Ccl is for businesses I think. The levy is just wrapped in by your energy company's price for power, its not separate but is included and around 9% of your total bill

[grunt]

Ccl is for businesses I think. The levy is just wrapped in by your energy company's price for power, its not separate but is included and around 9% of your total bill
Thanks. This seems to explain it, looks like it is 7.8% or £153 of the current OFGEM cap of £1971.

https://fullfact.org/economy/green-levies/

[Scorrie]

Some energy consultants this morning predicting the energy price cap to be nearly £4300 next year.

[neil7908]

Some energy consultants this morning predicting the energy price cap to be nearly £4300 next year.

Does anyone know how this is compares with other countries in Europe? And what are they doing to help people?

That figure is absolutely criminal and I'm struggling to understand how an average family, let alone a low income one, will be able to function this winter.

As I get older it really is beginning to feel like our systems and society is falling apart.

[Pretty Boy]

Some energy consultants this morning predicting the energy price cap to be nearly £4300 next year.

For someone earning minimum age on a 40 hour week that's almost 22% of their income before tax!

Add to that rent takes up almost 30% of someones income, and almost certainly more for someone on such a low wage, and you have to wonder how the economy survives this. After people have kept a roof over their head and ensured they don't freeze or starve they will have quite literally nothing left to spend on anything else. How does any business that provides a non essential service survive? It's a ticking time bomb and the timer is well below 10 seconds to go.

Obviously using minimum wage is an extreme example but this is going to seriously impact people who were previously comfortable as well.

It's a ****ed up system that sees people being reliant on handouts to cover the bare essentials. There is **** all noble about working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet, it's a national disgrace that people have to do that. Someone working in any job should be earning enough to cover their basic needs and still have a bit left over for 'luxuries'. If they aren't then we have to reset the whole system.

[hibsbollah]

Don’t Pay (dontpay.uk) (https://dontpay.uk/)

[Ozyhibby]

Don’t Pay (dontpay.uk) (https://dontpay.uk/)

I’d never advise anyone to do that but to be honest, there will be no need for a campaign. It’s going to happen anyway as people won’t be able to pay. There will also be business’s who will be reducing their hours of operation due to the way prices are going.
This is a horrific situation and Scotland has been abandoned by the UK govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Does anyone know how this is compares with other countries in Europe? And what are they doing to help people?

That figure is absolutely criminal and I'm struggling to understand how an average family, let alone a low income one, will be able to function this winter.

As I get older it really is beginning to feel like our systems and society is falling apart.

Uk about the same as western Europe last year 22cent Pkwy, less than Ireland 24 and Germany 30.

https://strom-report.de/electricity-prices-europe/

We should have privatised our renewables when building them, instead companies like BP and shell get most of the profits

[The_Exile]

It's getting to the point where I (and no doubt millions more) won't be able to afford the standing charges just to be connected to the network, never mind actually using any leccy or gas.

[hibsbollah]

I’d never advise anyone to do that but to be honest, there will be no need for a campaign. It’s going to happen anyway as people won’t be able to pay. There will also be business’s who will be reducing their hours of operation due to the way prices are going.
This is a horrific situation and Scotland has been abandoned by the UK govt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you need to ask yourself why they are not able to pay. The profits being generated by the gas companies at the moment are eyewatering. This isn't a force of nature, unforeseeable event. Its deliberate.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I think you need to ask yourself why they are not able to pay. The profits being generated by the gas companies at the moment are eyewatering. This isn't a force of nature, unforeseeable event. Its deliberate.

Frankie Boyle summed it up well by saying we're not in the middle of a cost of living crisis/recession, but we're in the middle of a robbery.

[hibsbollah]

Frankie Boyle summed it up well by saying we're not in the middle of a cost of living crisis/recession, but we're in the middle of a robbery.

Yep. And our new Prime Minister in waiting's only solution, she's just stated today, is income tax cuts :confused: Which benefits the well off and doesn't do anything for you AT ALL if you're under the tax threshold (ie-dirt poor) or the elderly. Its disgusting, criminal and its time for disobedience.

[Ozyhibby]

I think you need to ask yourself why they are not able to pay. The profits being generated by the gas companies at the moment are eyewatering. This isn't a force of nature, unforeseeable event. Its deliberate.

I agree. If I was the govt I would be seriously considering nationalising the generation of power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Col2]

People will die, tragically.

A lot more will become desperate and make choices that they may never recover from.

Even more will worry constantly about it, especially given the lack of any response from the UK Govt and will impact mental health.

A lot will muddle through and find a way

Millions won’t be able to pay. This will also push the price up further.

The richest will get more due to tax cuts and the MPs and ministers will continue to have bills paid on expenses and see zero impact.

But what is certain in my mind is we will see civil unrest over the next few months. We will see riots and some terrible scenes. We are meant to be a rich country and we can’t even support our people to keep them warm. Ashamed doesn’t even come close to it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Uk about the same as western Europe last year 22cent Pkwy, less than Ireland 24 and Germany 30.

https://strom-report.de/electricity-prices-europe/

We should have privatised our renewables when building them, instead companies like BP and shell get most of the profits

2 years ago!! What's it like this year?

[Stairway 2 7]

2 years ago!! What's it like this year?

The same last year roughly, no comparison for 22 yet. It won't be far off that but amplified as it's the whole sale price that's causing the problems. Germany most expensive but need to ask others if they are giving subsidies

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/energy-crisis-countries-cheapest-gas-and-electric-3674055

[Pretty Boy]

As a society we really have to have a serious discussion about UBI.

It's ludicrous that someone could put in a 40 hour week and still be unable to meet their basic needs. In fact it's criminal and it's a system that is so obviously flawed and rigged that it is indefensible.

Trickle down economics and 'wealth creators' just does not work. The argument always presented is that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Leaving aside any counter argument to that specific point, are the events since the financial crisis in the late 00s and early 10s and the current cost of living squeeze not clear evidence that capitalism isn't working and doesn't work? Global poverty is growing, home ownership is stagnating whilst house prices rise, food shortages are increasingly common, we are willfully destroying the planet in the name of profit etc etc. If that doesn't prove a system is doomed to failure then what does?

The current situation has probably gone on longer than it should have because the system affords enough people just enough that they don't really desire radical change. that is about to change as the 'I'm alright Jack' types are about to find they are in fact not alright either.

[stu in nottingham]

Its disgusting, criminal and its time for disobedience.


People will die, tragically.

A lot more will become desperate and make choices that they may never recover from.

Even more will worry constantly about it, especially given the lack of any response from the UK Govt and will impact mental health.

A lot will muddle through and find a way

Millions won’t be able to pay. This will also push the price up further.

The richest will get more due to tax cuts and the MPs and ministers will continue to have bills paid on expenses and see zero impact.

But what is certain in my mind is we will see civil unrest over the next few months. We will see riots and some terrible scenes. We are meant to be a rich country and we can’t even support our people to keep them warm. Ashamed doesn’t even come close to it.

We are heading towards becoming a nation living on Citalopram and pot noodles. People can live without many things but they cannot live without hope. I really fear for people's mental health as they are being pushed further and further into feelings of constant hopelessness. For an increasing number of people that will sadly mean them taking their own lives. For the benefit of any hard of thinking Tory politicians, that will mean a huge cost to the economy. Maybe they might care about that because they certainly do not care about people. Without any melodrama, I consider that as of evil intent. They are repellent and lack morality. F*** them.

I find myself on these hot summer days imagining what it's going to be like switching the heating off through the house in winter and just heating one room. A room I could conceivably live in, work in and sleep in. Unable to afford to socialise, buying the cheapest food and not going anywhere much at all. No self-pity here but anyone feeling like life is just pointless in these types of situations (and much worse) I can totally understand their feelings and at times, it's hard to portray that it is a worthwhile 'existence'.

I'm a fairly law-abiding sort but I now see civil unrest as the only option presented to ordinary people. What's more, it's a position of valour to strike out for change and a more caring society.

[HibsGW]

Does anyone know how this is compares with other countries in Europe? And what are they doing to help people?

That figure is absolutely criminal and I'm struggling to understand how an average family, let alone a low income one, will be able to function this winter.

As I get older it really is beginning to feel like our systems and society is falling apart.

Unrestricted capitalism is only going to get worse. Couples used to be comfortable having one person work and one stay at home, now both work, often more than a job each and still struggle to get by. It’s going to continue to get worse until people are working multiple jobs and simply not getting by. Record profits though in lots of sectors, woohoo.

[Stairway 2 7]

If truss gives no support she'll surely be pushing for the shortest term in office. October will be a horrific rise, January will be unbearable. Why isn't Starmer shouting from the rooftops, I've seen Gordon brown more

[Smartie]

As a society we really have to have a serious discussion about UBI.

It's ludicrous that someone could put in a 40 hour week and still be unable to meet their basic needs. In fact it's criminal and it's a system that is so obviously flawed and rigged that it is indefensible.

Trickle down economics and 'wealth creators' just does not work. The argument always presented is that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Leaving aside any counter argument to that specific point, are the events since the financial crisis in the late 00s and early 10s and the current cost of living squeeze not clear evidence that capitalism isn't working and doesn't work? Global poverty is growing, home ownership is stagnating whilst house prices rise, food shortages are increasingly common, we are willfully destroying the planet in the name of profit etc etc. If that doesn't prove a system is doomed to failure then what does?

The current situation has probably gone on longer than it should have because the system affords enough people just enough that they don't really desire radical change. that is about to change as the 'I'm alright Jack' types are about to find they are in fact not alright either.

It does have an "end days of capitalism" feel about it to me.

It'll only change when the ones who wield the real power want it to change.

They can be influenced though - with metaphorical carrots and big sticks. Your big houses, cars, companies, and yacht are all worthless when you've just had your throat cut by someone with nothing. There's only ever a thin blue line holding the whole system together.

If these are the end days of capitalism though - what is next?

[Moulin Yarns]

As a society we really have to have a serious discussion about UBI.

It's ludicrous that someone could put in a 40 hour week and still be unable to meet their basic needs. In fact it's criminal and it's a system that is so obviously flawed and rigged that it is indefensible.

Trickle down economics and 'wealth creators' just does not work. The argument always presented is that socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Leaving aside any counter argument to that specific point, are the events since the financial crisis in the late 00s and early 10s and the current cost of living squeeze not clear evidence that capitalism isn't working and doesn't work? Global poverty is growing, home ownership is stagnating whilst house prices rise, food shortages are increasingly common, we are willfully destroying the planet in the name of profit etc etc. If that doesn't prove a system is doomed to failure then what does?

The current situation has probably gone on longer than it should have because the system affords enough people just enough that they don't really desire radical change. that is about to change as the 'I'm alright Jack' types are about to find they are in fact not alright either.

I'm not sure how it would work or be financed, but a UBI equivalent to the state pension must be a decent starting point for it. I realise that inflation makes it even more difficult to calculate what is needed for a UBI but the state pension as a minimum with employers 'topping up' what people earn.

Happy to hear what our accountants think of it.

[Moulin Yarns]

The same last year roughly, no comparison for 22 yet. It won't be far off that but amplified as it's the whole sale price that's causing the problems. Germany most expensive but need to ask others if they are giving subsidies

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/energy-crisis-countries-cheapest-gas-and-electric-3674055

In 2020 my monthly bill was about 40% of what it is currently.

As for the price cap, it's basically price fixing for all energy companies. Charging the highest amount possible, with no room for undercutting.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure how it would work or be financed, but a UBI equivalent to the state pension must be a decent starting point for it. I realise that inflation makes it even more difficult to calculate what is needed for a UBI but the state pension as a minimum with employers 'topping up' what people earn.

Happy to hear what our accountants think of it.

I don’t think there is a single working example of it? Nobody can seem to make it work anywhere.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I don’t think there is a single working example of it? Nobody can seem to make it work anywhere.


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https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income

[Paulie Walnuts]

We are heading towards becoming a nation living on Citalopram and pot noodles. People can live without many things but they cannot live without hope. I really fear for people's mental health as they are being pushed further and further into feelings of constant hopelessness. For an increasing number of people that will sadly mean them taking their own lives. For the benefit of any hard of thinking Tory politicians, that will mean a huge cost to the economy. Maybe they might care about that because they certainly do not care about people. Without any melodrama, I consider that as of evil intent. They are repellent and lack morality. F*** them.

I find myself on these hot summer days imagining what it's going to be like switching the heating off through the house in winter and just heating one room. A room I could conceivably live in, work in and sleep in. Unable to afford to socialise, buying the cheapest food and not going anywhere much at all. No self-pity here but anyone feeling like life is just pointless in these types of situations (and much worse) I can totally understand their feelings and at times, it's hard to portray that it is a worthwhile 'existance'.

I'm a fairly law-abiding sort but I now see civil unrest as the only option presented to ordinary people. What's more, it's a position of valour to strike out for change and a more caring society.

:agree:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income

Those are studies and research papers. I’m looking for a working example of a whole population funded internally operating this system?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Those are studies and research papers. I’m looking for a working example of a whole population funded internally operating this system?


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The Finland case is the most comprehensive, no country has gone fully towards UBI but Finland provides the best case studies so far.

[Ozyhibby]

The Finland case is the most comprehensive, no country has gone fully towards UBI but Finland provides the best case studies so far.

And it looks like a good study but they haven’t proceeded with it?


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[GlesgaeHibby]

If truss gives no support she'll surely be pushing for the shortest term in office. October will be a horrific rise, January will be unbearable. Why isn't Starmer shouting from the rooftops, I've seen Gordon brown more

Spot on re: Starmer and Brown.
No Tories available to talk to C4 news tonight. Why isn't Starmer on hammering them for being missing in crisis, and setting out what labour would do to fix it? Don't even know what their plan is.

Starmer seems like a decent bloke, and would make a good attorney general or justice secretary, but he's not a leader.

[Ozyhibby]

Spot on re: Starmer and Brown.
No Tories available to talk to C4 news tonight. Why isn't Starmer on hammering them for being missing in crisis, and setting out what labour would do to fix it? Don't even know what their plan is.

Starmer seems like a decent bloke, and would make a good attorney general or justice secretary, but he's not a leader.

Between 1995 and 1997, was there any news, chat, current affairs programme anywhere that Labour were not tying to get someone on?
I think the biggest problem is that the current Labour Party are downright lazy.


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[Pretty Boy]

Between 1995 and 1997, was there any news, chat, current affairs programme anywhere that Labour were not tying to get someone on?
I think the biggest problem is that the current Labour Party are downright lazy.


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I don't think you are far off the mark.

We can question the morality of it but Blair in particular spent years wooing the Murdoch media. At the other end of the spectrum Corbyn refused to play the media game in that way but both him and McDonell were always visible.

Starmer's plan seems to be to say nothing, offer nothing and pray the Tories cut their own throats. The worst financial crisis in several generations and the leader of the opposition and his team are MIA. I'm at the point where I barely even care if it's electorally successful, it lacks principle and it's immoral to abandon people in this way. Say what you like about them but yet again both Sturgeon and Drakeford are showing him up.

[Kato]

Spot on re: Starmer and Brown.
No Tories available to talk to C4 news tonight. Why isn't Starmer on hammering them for being missing in crisis, and setting out what labour would do to fix it? Don't even know what their plan is.

Starmer seems like a decent bloke, and would make a good attorney general or justice secretary, but he's not a leader.If he's not on the box he should be out on the streets getting his message across. To be fair I don't know if he's doing the latter or not.

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[Since90+2]

Starmer is doing that Trojan horse theory. Hopefully if he was elected you'd see a major policy shift towards supporting the working class.

Or maybe that's wishful thinking....

[hibsbollah]

Starmer is doing that Trojan horse theory. Hopefully if he was elected you'd see a major policy shift towards supporting the working class.

Or maybe that's wishful thinking....

Frankie Boyle keeps it simple 'If Keir Starmer ran at a pigeon, the pigeon wouldnt move'.

[Since90+2]

Frankie Boyle keeps it simple 'If Keir Starmer ran at a pigeon, the pigeon wouldnt move'.

Or maybe he's learned that a Corbyn won't win an election and he's playing the long game.

Let's hope so.

[Since90+2]

I don't think you are far off the mark.

We can question the morality of it but Blair in particular spent years wooing the Murdoch media. At the other end of the spectrum Corbyn refused to play the media game in that way but both him and McDonell were always visible.

Starmer's plan seems to be to say nothing, offer nothing and pray the Tories cut their own throats. The worst financial crisis in several generations and the leader of the opposition and his team are MIA. I'm at the point where I barely even care if it's electorally successful, it lacks principle and it's immoral to abandon people in this way. Say what you like about them but yet again both Sturgeon and Drakeford are showing him up.

I get what you're saying, but if it gets the end result that helps working people, then I personally couldn't care how he got there, principled or not.

[Stairway 2 7]

I get what you're saying, but if it gets the end result that helps working people, then I personally couldn't care how he got there, principled or not.

You think not being on the TV demanding the tories help people through the worst crisis in decades will help people. The damage is going to be done by the time the next election comes. We need an opposition now. Any other leader would be 10 points ahead, not one behind

[DaveF]

I get what you're saying, but if it gets the end result that helps working people, then I personally couldn't care how he got there, principled or not.

You think Starmers version of Labour are going to help working class people?

[Since90+2]

You think Starmers version of Labour are going to help working class people?

Maybe not? But it is genuinely the only alternative we have to Liz Truss' Tories.

For that alone I hope they win the next GE. Which I think they probably will.

An openly left wing government are not going to win an election.

What is the realistic alternative?

[Since90+2]

You think not being on the TV demanding the tories help people through the worst crisis in decades will help people. The damage is going to be done by the time the next election comes. We need an opposition now. Any other leader would be 10 points ahead, not one behind

Unfortunately, I can't see any situation that helps the working class this winter. It's already too far down the road.

If people can put forward a genuine and realistic alternative that can make a difference now, then I'd back it 100%. As far as I can see though, it doesn't exist, unfortunately.

[Kato]

Maybe not? But it is genuinely the only alternative we have to Liz Truss' Tories.

For that alone I hope they win the next GE. Which I think they probably will.

An openly left wing government are not going to win an election.

What is the realistic alternative?I reckon there will a huge increase in tactical voting in England. The Tory party claim it is illegal despite openly bargaining with the fascist Brexit Party before the last election. Which led to fascists and bigots coalescing around the not-as-yet-ex Prime Minister's Tory Party.

Those that joined the party have a say in which doughnut is next up as "Leader", those few thousand votes explain the anti-woke gibberish at their hustings.

The last couple of by-elections seem to have been decided by tactical voting. Could kill that party off. Or resplinter it into a re-centred, post Russian money, Conservative Party, with all the fascists and exceptionalist weirdos off back to being isolated again.

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[hibsbollah]

BBC News at Ten are reporting the cost of living crisis as if it were a freak of nature. No searching questions about policy at all. Where does my money go Susan? To shareholders, mate.

[grunt]

Does anyone know how this is compares with other countries in Europe? And what are they doing to help people?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZx-a1fWIAENwwt?format=jpg&name=small

[Stairway 2 7]

France is paying a £55 billion pound subsidy to keep the rise down to 4%. Governments surely have no choice but to subsidise, people won't be able to pay simple as. Truss will surely crumble as it seems there is discontent within the tories about needing a subsidy. Least snp and lib dems are trying to sway it. Starmer is waiting to see how it goes

[Since90+2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZx-a1fWIAENwwt?format=jpg&name=small

It's absolutely scandalous a government are sitting about and allowing this to happen.

[lapsedhibee]

It's absolutely scandalous a government are sitting about and allowing this to happen.

Johnson's sure the government will take action though, so that's completely reassuring. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/09/johnson-absolutely-certain-next-pm-will-offer-more-help-for-households

[hibsbollah]

France is paying a £55 billion pound subsidy to keep the rise down to 4%. Governments surely have no choice but to subsidise, people won't be able to pay simple as. Truss will surely crumble as it seems there is discontent within the tories about needing a subsidy. Least snp and lib dems are trying to sway it. Starmer is waiting to see how it goes

Well, 'subsidy' suggests they are pumping money into a private company. What they've actually done is renationalised EDF so the vast 'subsidies' also get reinvested into green energy and reduction in bills instead of ever more shareholder returns like we get in the UK. And thats Macron, an arch-Thatcherite, doing that. The key thing isnt about the money that gets chucked around, the key thing is who owns the asset. Thats why nationalisation is the way to go and why the Labour 2017 manifesto was spot on.

[Scorrie]

Well, 'subsidy' suggests they are pumping money into a private company. What they've actually done is renationalised EDF so the vast 'subsidies' also get reinvested into green energy and reduction in bills instead of ever more shareholder returns like we get in the UK. And thats Macron, an arch-Thatcherite, doing that. The key thing isnt about the money that gets chucked around, the key thing is who owns the asset. Thats why nationalisation is the way to go and why the Labour 2017 manifesto was spot on.

I have to agree with you. As we are seeing with water companies in England who pay huge dividends as the leaks get worse and sewage off run increases, there are some essentials that are too important to be left to the private market. Energy is one of them

[Kato]

I have to agree with you. As we are seeing with water companies in England who pay huge dividends as the leaks get worse and sewage off run increases, there are some essentials that are too important to be left to the private market. Energy is one of themSome of those leaks are 30 years old. Nothing been done in that time.

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[Pretty Boy]

I have to agree with you. As we are seeing with water companies in England who pay huge dividends as the leaks get worse and sewage off run increases, there are some essentials that are too important to be left to the private market. Energy is one of them

:agree:

I would argue every essential should have a nationalised provider. That would include energy, water, transport and broadband among others.

If the counter argument is that this stifles innovation or prevents competition in these sectors then fine. Profit making companies are entirely welcome to go up against the state owned companies, provided they contribute a fair amount to the maintenance of the infrastructure.

The stories about the water companies in England should be a national scandal. I can't remember the exact figures but I believe it's in the region of about £17bn repair work required whilst dividends totaling almost £60bn have been paid out since 1991. It's worth remembering that when water was privatised all existing debts were waived yet these companies now have debts totaling almost £50bn. If you have a backlog of repair work totaling billions and have debts totaling billions then you shouldn't be paying out huge dividends until that is tackled. I don't care that in the world of accountants these companies will technically be profitable and able to service their debts, the outstanding repairs are a ticking time bomb and continuing to ignore them is a huge part of the reason why they remain in the black.

[hibsbollah]

:agree:

I would argue every essential should have a nationalised provider. That would include energy, water, transport and broadband among others.

If the counter argument is that this stifles innovation or prevents competition in these sectors then fine. Profit making companies are entirely welcome to go up against the state owned companies, provided they contribute a fair amount to the maintenance of the infrastructure.

The stories about the water companies in England should be a national scandal. I can't remember the exact figures but I believe it's in the region of about £17bn repair work required whilst dividends totaling almost £60bn have been paid out since 1991. It's worth remembering that when water was privatised all existing debts were waived yet these companies now have debts totaling almost £50bn. If you have a backlog of repair work totaling billions and have debts totaling billions then you shouldn't be paying out huge dividends until that is tackled. I don't care that in the world of accountants these companies will technically be profitable and able to service their debts, the outstanding repairs are a ticking time bomb and continuing to ignore them is a huge part of the reason why they remain in the black.

…but again, we keep returning to the question of what is the motivation of your average Tory voter to keep returning Tory candidates? The archetypal Tory voter in a leafy rural prosperous county, like Bedfordshire or Dorset or Shropshire, they must SEE their rivers get polluted with sewage, their beaches filthy, their wee wind in the willows or famous five rural idyll getting ruined. That’s the absolute LAST thing I’d imagine an archetypal Tory wants to see, even if they want to see the immigrants sent to Rwanda where they belong, what motivates them to support a government that literally pours excrement in their garden?

I’m a politics graduate and I just don’t understand what motivates people anymore. Quite literally clueless.

Apologies for slight topic deviation, there is a Tory thread of course.

[lapsedhibee]

…but again, we keep returning to the question of what is the motivation of your average Tory voter to keep returning Tory candidates? The archetypal Tory voter in a leafy rural prosperous county, like Bedfordshire or Dorset or Shropshire, they must SEE their rivers get polluted with sewage, their beaches filthy, their wee wind in the willows or famous five rural idyll getting ruined. That’s the absolute LAST thing I’d imagine an archetypal Tory wants to see, even if they want to see the immigrants sent to Rwanda where they belong, what motivates them to support a government that literally pours excrement in their garden?

I’m a politics graduate and I just don’t understand what motivates people anymore. Quite literally clueless.

Apologies for slight topic deviation, there is a Tory thread of course.

Doubt that you would notice river pollution unless you're a wild swimmer or maybe angler. And could be wrong but doubt whether many wild swimmers are Tory voters.

[Sylar]

Doubt that you would notice river pollution unless you're a wild swimmer or maybe angler. And could be wrong but doubt whether many wild swimmers are Tory voters.

All you need to be is someone with a pair of eyes who happens to walk near a river periodically.

Of course, some pollutants aren't visible to the naked eye, but we're talking about untreated sewage water here - the discolour, smell and turbidity of the water makes it very hard to miss!

If the Government aren't going to do anything here in the UK, we'll see Downing Street in flames by Christmas. Something has to give, and it shouldn't be people's ability to exist.

[lapsedhibee]

Of course, some pollutants aren't visible to the naked eye, but we're talking about untreated sewage water here - the discolour, smell and turbidity of the water makes it very hard to miss!

That would be just after the major dumps, though, and those effects would disperse quite quickly thereafter, wouldn't they? I don't know how many folk regularly walk by rivers to notice what's going on in them. Perhaps not enough to overturn a landslide majority.

[Sylar]

That would be just after the major dumps, though, and those effects would disperse quite quickly thereafter, wouldn't they? I don't know how many folk regularly walk by rivers to notice what's going on in them. Perhaps not enough to overturn a landslide majority.

Depends on antecedant conditions, flow rate, bathymetry, sediment in the water, nature of the pollutant...a lot of waste sticks around in water bodies for a long time, especially in the summer months when there's negligible inflow.

And maybe we just differ, but the vast majority of people I know who enjoy walking outdoors gravitate toward areas that contain water, be that rivers, lakes, coastal environments...enough to overturn a last landslide victory, of course not - but if you're seeing your environment around you being degraded with companies getting little more than a slap on the wrists from regulators (while the party they voted for strip away the policies and laws that protect against this type of activity in the first place), you might just start to get a little pissed off. Especially on top of EVERYTHING else...

[Col2]

The government has a duty to look after the people who they serve.

It’s an absolutely basic requirement. They are public servants and must do everything to protect people from the worst outcomes.

Anyone think this UK government will do that?

Riots by October/November I would bet.

[The Modfather]

The government has a duty to look after the people who they serve.

It’s an absolutely basic requirement. They are public servants and must do everything to protect people from the worst outcomes.

Anyone think this UK government will do that?

Riots by October/November I would bet.

Is that not the issue, they do look after who they serve. You just have look at the article someone put up about the £30m bonus we had to pay the queen because her income can’t go down. The elite look after themselves very well. Must be nice to be born into privilege where your income can’t ever drop below the tens and hundreds of millions you receive, particularly during a cost of living crisis.