China

[Ozyhibby]

America has now decided China is the enemy and we now have to blindly follow them, reliable partners that they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837.amp


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[lord bunberry]

America has now decided China is the enemy and we now have to blindly follow them, reliable partners that they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837.amp


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I wonder what China has planned in the next few years? I’m not sure this is the answer, I’d rather we invested in trying to wean ourselves off the reliance on Chinese goods. Russia and China are building up to something imo, I’m just not sure what it is.

[Santa Cruz]

I wonder what China has planned in the next few years? I’m not sure this is the answer, I’d rather we invested in trying to wean ourselves off the reliance on Chinese goods. Russia and China are building up to something imo, I’m just not sure what it is.

Was wondering the same and if they have intelligence which might have factored into the very hasty withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan? I know the withdrawal was planned well in advance, but the way it was executed now has me wondering. I could well be wrong.

[Lendo]

If you never want to sleep again have a wee read about Russia’s Poseidon 100 megaton cobalt nuclear torpedo designed to create a massive radioactive tsunami. These are apparently swimming about in the Atlantic and Pacific just now.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/nuclear-overkill-why-russia-can-never-use-its-poseidon-torpedo-183251

[Peevemor]

The French aren't happy because they've just had a 56 billion euro contract to build conventional submarines cancelled by Australia.

[lord bunberry]

Was wondering the same and if they have intelligence which might have factored into the very hasty withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan? I know the withdrawal was planned well in advance, but the way it was executed now has me wondering. I could well be wrong.
I hadn’t thought about that, but you could be right.

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder what China has planned in the next few years? I’m not sure this is the answer, I’d rather we invested in trying to wean ourselves off the reliance on Chinese goods. Russia and China are building up to something imo, I’m just not sure what it is.

They are certainly not our friends and we need to start sourcing our goods elesewhere but getting into a war with them over Taiwan? Really don’t think that’s the direction Scotland should be going in.


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[Santa Cruz]

They are certainly not our friends and we need to start sourcing our goods elesewhere but getting into a war with them over Taiwan? Really don’t think that’s the direction Scotland should be going in.


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Doesn't really matter what direction Scotland would go in, independent or not. If any part of the UK was hit, we all suffer and I'm not just talking nuclear bombs, they think the more imminent threats will likely be cyber attacks.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't really matter what direction Scotland would go in, independent or not. If any part of the UK was hit, we all suffer and I'm not just talking nuclear bombs, they think the more imminent threats will likely be cyber attacks.

I really don’t think China has any plans to hit the UK. This is about Taiwan. They do have plans for that. Is it really in our interests to get involved in that at all? Even with this deal, do we have the capability and can we trust the Americans to stay the course?
China is going to take Taiwan soon and I really don’t think there is anything that can be done to stop that.


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[Santa Cruz]

I really don’t think China has any plans to hit the UK. This is about Taiwan. They do have plans for that. Is it really in our interests to get involved in that at all? Even with this deal, do we have the capability and can we trust the Americans to stay the course?
China is going to take Taiwan soon and I really don’t think there is anything that can be done to stop that.


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Where does that stop though? For me stick with your allies, you never know when you might need them. China, Iran, N. Korea, Russia and a few others - all worth the watching, it's a dangerous world with some very dangerous people in charge.

[ronaldo7]

The French aren't happy because they've just had a 56 billion euro contract to build conventional submarines cancelled by Australia.

In this day and age, Im surprised the Australians actually went for conventional submarines. Running silent and deep is not conducive with a great big diesel engine at the rear.

[Ozyhibby]

Where does that stop though? For me stick with your allies, you never know when you might need them. China, Iran, N. Korea, Russia and a few others - all worth the watching, it's a dangerous world with some very dangerous people in charge.

I think that a bit of pragmatism is in order though. Is there any way in which America can seriously defend Taiwan without risking a full scale war with China where millions die?


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[hibsbollah]

I think that a bit of pragmatism is in order though. Is there any way in which America can seriously defend Taiwan without risking a full scale war with China where millions die?


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You might be right about Taiwan, you might not. What is clear is that China just doesn’t have a recent history of military expansionism or invading other countries. Tibet is an exception although that was a long time ago and right on the border. In fact, their policy in relation to Taiwan can be described as restrained, up to now. Taiwan is a country that was created by a fleeing defeated army and who’s existence is a big GTF to Beijing. It’s like the retreating Spanish held on to a bit of Texas and stayed there for most of the 20th century. And it is culturally Chinese after all.

From a Chinese POV, making Australia a nuclear power is a dangerous piece of escalation from Biden in a part of the world that isn’t in the USAs sphere of influence. And the British involvement is just bizarre. But our media will talk about this, we’re hearing not much else but ‘fear of China’. Actually empirical evidence suggests world peace has a lot more to fear from elsewhere.

[Ozyhibby]

You might be right about Taiwan, you might not. What is clear is that China just doesn’t have a recent history of military expansionism or invading other countries. Tibet is an exception although that was a long time ago and right on the border. In fact, their policy in relation to Taiwan can be described as restrained, up to now. Taiwan is a country that was created by a fleeing defeated army and who’s existence is a big GTF to Beijing. It’s like the retreating Spanish held on to a bit of Texas and stayed there for most of the 20th century. And it is culturally Chinese after all.

From a Chinese POV, making Australia a nuclear power is a dangerous piece of escalation from Biden in a part of the world that isn’t in the USAs sphere of influence. And the British involvement is just bizarre. But our media will talk about this, we’re hearing not much else but ‘fear of China’. Actually empirical evidence suggests world peace has a lot more to fear from elsewhere.

But fear of China sell a lot more military hardware.


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[Lendo]

What exactly is the UK’s contribution to this alliance if the US is providing the technology and also stationing their subs in Oz?

[Moulin Yarns]

America has now decided China is the enemy and we now have to blindly follow them, reliable partners that they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837.amp


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Can we not just give Vigil to the Aussies?

[Lendo]

Can we not just give Vigil to the Aussies?

Is there not six or seven nuclear submarines sitting in Rosyth right now that have been waiting on decommissioning since the 90s? Get them retrofitted and punted out to Australia. Better over the other side of the world than in our backyard.

Edit:

It’s seven and they’ve been stuck there since the 1980’s.


https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/nuclear-graveyard-just-five-miles-19118105

[Curried]

My 10’c FWIW is that the US are working on this squirrel to get their hands on the Junggar Basin oil reserves.......full of Uyghurs it is.

[lord bunberry]

You might be right about Taiwan, you might not. What is clear is that China just doesn’t have a recent history of military expansionism or invading other countries. Tibet is an exception although that was a long time ago and right on the border. In fact, their policy in relation to Taiwan can be described as restrained, up to now. Taiwan is a country that was created by a fleeing defeated army and who’s existence is a big GTF to Beijing. It’s like the retreating Spanish held on to a bit of Texas and stayed there for most of the 20th century. And it is culturally Chinese after all.

From a Chinese POV, making Australia a nuclear power is a dangerous piece of escalation from Biden in a part of the world that isn’t in the USAs sphere of influence. And the British involvement is just bizarre. But our media will talk about this, we’re hearing not much else but ‘fear of China’. Actually empirical evidence suggests world peace has a lot more to fear from elsewhere.
Are Australia becoming a nuclear power? The way I read it the submarines were going to be nuclear powered but not carry nuclear weapons.

[lord bunberry]

My 10’c FWIW is that the US are working on this squirrel to get their hands on the Junggar Basin oil reserves.......full of Uyghurs it is.
Is oil still worth fighting over?

[Curried]

Is oil still worth fighting over?

Not for me, but cheap, easy to extract, oil will be worth something to somebody for some time.....so the answer is yes over the next couple of decades.

[ronaldo7]

The South China Sea situation has been escalating for a while. China has been constructing military and industrial outposts on artificial islands for a number of years now. The US have been keeping a watching brief for a while, but now getting militarily involved as China grips the region, and with over 11 billion barrels of untapped oil, and 190 trillion cubic feet of natural gas which many countries are claiming rights to, the US will be wanting its share. I'd have thought Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and the Philippines would have more rights to it than them.

Not sure why we're involved tbh.

[Curried]

Are Australia becoming a nuclear power? The way I read it the submarines were going to be nuclear powered but not carry nuclear weapons.

It’s ScoMo willy waving. Any nuclear boats are not allowed in NZ waters for starters. Moreover AUS have no deepwater ports, and quite likely a large proportion of people in Australia would object…..as of yet they have not been consulted!

[neil7908]

Are Australia becoming a nuclear power? The way I read it the submarines were going to be nuclear powered but not carry nuclear weapons.

This is my understanding. They are getting nuclear powered submarines but not weapons. Officially of course...

[Just Alf]

This is my understanding. They are getting nuclear powered submarines but not weapons. Officially of course...I seem to remember years ago a stushie when a nuclear powered Royal Navy ship was going to make a ceremonial visit to a Australian port.

[hibsbollah]

But fear of China sell a lot more military hardware.


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Indeed. Which is the driver behind the anti China rhetoric that’ll be increasingly hammered out in the near future. Just bears repeating there is no actual, credible threat from the PLA (unless you live inside China).

[He's here!]

Knowing who you're working with doesn't seem to figure too highly up Biden's list of priorities :wink:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/16/joe-biden-forgets-scott-morrisons-name-during-historic-pact-announcement

[JeMeSouviens]

You might be right about Taiwan, you might not. What is clear is that China just doesn’t have a recent history of military expansionism or invading other countries. Tibet is an exception although that was a long time ago and right on the border. In fact, their policy in relation to Taiwan can be described as restrained, up to now. Taiwan is a country that was created by a fleeing defeated army and who’s existence is a big GTF to Beijing. It’s like the retreating Spanish held on to a bit of Texas and stayed there for most of the 20th century. And it is culturally Chinese after all.

From a Chinese POV, making Australia a nuclear power is a dangerous piece of escalation from Biden in a part of the world that isn’t in the USAs sphere of influence. And the British involvement is just bizarre. But our media will talk about this, we’re hearing not much else but ‘fear of China’. Actually empirical evidence suggests world peace has a lot more to fear from elsewhere.

Taiwan is a strange hybrid. It constitutionally still regards itself as the government of all China in exile, so accepts itself as being part of China but doesn't regard the Peoples Republic of China as the legitimate government. But there is a big faction who want to become a fully fledged independent state. Ethnically speaking I think it's fairly evenly split between an indigenous Taiwanese people and immigrant mainland Chinese.

China (as in the PRC) says that if the Taiwanese try and declare independence they'll force unification.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wonder what China has planned in the next few years? I’m not sure this is the answer, I’d rather we invested in trying to wean ourselves off the reliance on Chinese goods. Russia and China are building up to something imo, I’m just not sure what it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_and_Road_Initiative

[Since90+2]

Was wondering the same and if they have intelligence which might have factored into the very hasty withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan? I know the withdrawal was planned well in advance, but the way it was executed now has me wondering. I could well be wrong.

I can't see the withdrawal of troops being anything to do with preparing for some kinds of conflict with China or Russia. There will never be a ground war fought between major nuclear superpowers. Well, hopefully anyway.

[Smartie]

I remember speaking to my youngest brother a few years back, he’s in the Navy and has a degree in History and Politics.

We were discussing various bits and pieces - Russia, Islamic fundamentalism, Brexit, all sorts of other stuff and I asked him what he thought about the situations he the UK was likely to face going forward.

His opinion was that the 21st century would most likely involve increasing hostility with China, and as time passes we’ll find ourselves getting into more and more scrapes, of varying magnitude.

I thought this was quite interesting and surprising, but it may be that he was right.

[Santa Cruz]

I can't see the withdrawal of troops being anything to do with preparing for some kinds of conflict with China or Russia. There will never be a ground war fought between major nuclear superpowers. Well, hopefully anyway.

You'll know more about it than me no doubt, I don't have much knowledge on the subject. I wasn't sure if there was big numbers of Marine's stationed in Afghanistan.

[hibsbollah]

If you listen to the security and geopolitical analysts that are being wheeled out, it’s just a total consensus that China are ‘expansionist’ and are ‘pushing out’ into the South China Sea and Africa (on radio Scotland we have a French and a British expert Tim Marshall and Olivier Gita both saying essentially the same thing right now on the John Beattie news programme). Beatties opening remark was actually ‘so, what are China up to?!’ :dunno:

In academic circles this is very much NOT the consensus view, but it’s being parroted out unquestioned and unchallenged. No evidence, in the form of countries that China has invaded or perhaps proxy wars they might be fighting, is ever presented. They are of course expanding economically, as youd expect from a capitalist country.

[Since90+2]

You'll know more about it than me no doubt, I don't have much knowledge on the subject. I wasn't sure if there was big numbers of Marine's stationed in Afghanistan.

I probably don't tbh. I just can't envisage a scenario in which American troops are actively fighting directly against Russia or Chinese soldiers on the battlefield.

Let's hope not for all our sakes.

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18


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[Paul1642]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59325399

Chinese tennis player publicly alleges sexual abuse from a government official and quickly vanishes from the face of the earth other than a dubious email claiming her allegation was false and that she is home resting. Reminding me a bit of the Jamal Khashoggi story and if it turns out they have done away with her I look forward to the same levels of international action 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59325399

Chinese tennis player publicly alleges sexual abuse from a government official and quickly vanishes from the face of the earth other than a dubious email claiming her allegation was false and that she is home resting. Reminding me a bit of the Jamal Khashoggi story and if it turns out they have done away with her I look forward to the same levels of international action [emoji849]

Was there any international action against Saudi Arabia?


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[Sir David Gray]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59325399

Chinese tennis player publicly alleges sexual abuse from a government official and quickly vanishes from the face of the earth other than a dubious email claiming her allegation was false and that she is home resting. Reminding me a bit of the Jamal Khashoggi story and if it turns out they have done away with her I look forward to the same levels of international action 🙄

Shocking story, I'm a big tennis fan and she's very well known.

What a wicked regime the Chinese Government really is. Hope she's ok.

[Ozyhibby]

Shocking story, I'm a big tennis fan and she's very well known.

What a wicked regime the Chinese Government really is. Hope she's ok.

I think it’s about time we started to reassess our relationship with China. Time to stop trading with such a wicked regime.


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[Sir David Gray]

I think it’s about time we started to reassess our relationship with China. Time to stop trading with such a wicked regime.


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Yep completely agree.

[Pete]

I think it’s about time we started to reassess our relationship with China. Time to stop trading with such a wicked regime.


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I can't see that happening any time soon.

[Paul1642]

Was there any international action against Saudi Arabia?


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None as far as I could see. We talk a good talk when it comes to smaller weaker nations doing things like this but always silence for Saudi and China.

[JimBHibees]

None as far as I could see. We talk a good talk when it comes to smaller weaker nations doing things like this but always silence for Saudi and China.

Probably signed another huge arms deal with Saudi just to show them how angry we were. :rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

None as far as I could see. We talk a good talk when it comes to smaller weaker nations doing things like this but always silence for Saudi and China.

The WTA have announced their intention to pull out of China, it will be interesting to see if the LTA follow suit.
Obviously there are different kinds of human rights abuses in different countries, but at least tennis is doing something in this case, unlike Saudi post-Khasshogi.

Other very bad reports from Human Rights Watch this week about Qatar's mistreatment of foreign workers, mostly from Bangladesh. Suggesting that 'reforms' were total window dressing. Apart from the Denmark national team, sport is broadly silent about this and the plans for The World Cup continue. Keep wearing those rainbow laces, footballers, as long as you keep playing in Saudi where homosexuality can be punished by the death penalty:aok:

[Since90+2]

I agree with the sentiments that in an ideal world we wouldn't deal with states like Saudi and China. The reality however is quite different.

Our economy would see an economic shock over a a sustained period that we have never seen previously. That would mean billions less to spend on things like the NHS (if you think it's bad now I'd hate to see what it would be like after the economic impact of cutting ties with China would be).

Would people be happy for themselves or loved ones to wait longer for cancer screens? Potentially missing life saving treatment and dying prematurely because that's likely what would happen if we were to take that course of action.

Exiting the EU and then cutting all economic and business ties with China and Saudi Arabia would likely add to the misery that a lot of working class people in this country already face.

[Glory Lurker]

I agree with the sentiments that in an ideal world we wouldn't deal with states like Saudi and China. The reality however is quite different.

Our economy would see an economic shock over a a sustained period that we have never seen previously. That would mean billions less to spend on things like the NHS (if you think it's bad now I'd hate to see what it would be like after the economic impact of cutting ties with China would be).

Would people be happy for themselves or loved ones to wait longer for cancer screens? Potentially missing life saving treatment and dying prematurely because that's likely what would happen if we were to take that course of action.

Exiting the EU and then cutting all economic and business ties with China and Saudi Arabia would likely add to the misery that a lot of working class people in this country already face.

No doubt correct. Put another way, they own us and can do what they want, which they will.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree with the sentiments that in an ideal world we wouldn't deal with states like Saudi and China. The reality however is quite different.

Our economy would see an economic shock over a a sustained period that we have never seen previously. That would mean billions less to spend on things like the NHS (if you think it's bad now I'd hate to see what it would be like after the economic impact of cutting ties with China would be).

Would people be happy for themselves or loved ones to wait longer for cancer screens? Potentially missing life saving treatment and dying prematurely because that's likely what would happen if we were to take that course of action.

Exiting the EU and then cutting all economic and business ties with China and Saudi Arabia would likely add to the misery that a lot of working class people in this country already face.

Better start getting prepared now then because eventually the US is going to start cutting ties soon anyway and we’ll have to jump when they do.
Are we really going to send a team of athletes to the Winter Olympics next year? That would be pretty disgusting if any harm has came to this tennis player.


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[hibsbollah]

Better start getting prepared now then because eventually the US is going to start cutting ties soon anyway and we’ll have to jump when they do.
Are we really going to send a team of athletes to the Winter Olympics next year? That would be pretty disgusting if any harm has came to this tennis player.


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Other countries also make stuff. The issue is global supply and just in time delivery. As consumers we’ve become used to poor quality disposable electronics and white goods on tap. If we weren’t so dependent on this model, China wouldn’t be so important. We need to change the consumption model for the sake of the planet anyway so reducing our dependence on China would be a good place to start. We could also learn to manufacture our own semiconductors.

But of course that’s fantasy.

[Pretty Boy]

The west has been dropping their drawers to China for years to satiate our demand for cheap consumer goods. There's some kind of irony that 'communist' China has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of western consumer capitalism.

I wouldn't expect any changes any time soon. We'll get a few stern words but the idea of doing anything radical is too much like hard work so we'll carry on as before.

[Just_Jimmy]

Was there any international action against Saudi Arabia?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNah, instead we let them join the Premier league bandwagon and they now own one of the biggest clubs in England.

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[hibsbollah]

The west has been dropping their drawers to China for years to satiate our demand for cheap consumer goods. There's some kind of irony that 'communist' China has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of western consumer capitalism.

I wouldn't expect any changes any time soon. We'll get a few stern words but the idea of doing anything radical is too much like hard work so we'll carry on as before.

China is ‘communist’ in the same sense as North Korea is ‘Democratic’ or the Nazis were ‘socialist’.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/china-disappeared-high-profile-figures-who-have-gone-missing-during-xi-jinpings-rule?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1637336056-1


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