£128,337

[linlithgowhibbie]

£128,337, thats what FOH donated to Hearts last month!!!!

Compare what we have donated through HSL

May 2021: £24,380.66June 2021: £20,478.20
July 2021: £19,221.41

These figures show how much Hearts will have to offer bigger wages to prospective signings, If you are finacially able please think about joining HSL and helping Hibs.

NB I am only a HSL member not a recruiting officer!:agree:

[Unseen work]

That’s incredible from them tbf.

That would cover us signing Dylan Tait for example.

A couple of months of that and there would be absolutely no excuse to not get Kerr, McCart etc

[RoYO!]

The other way of looking at it is, what a colossal waste of money over the years. Incredible levels of underachievement vs the money punted in. Without the right people managing the income it's more or less irrelevant how much money is brought in.

[Gerard]

When Hearts get a good manager and wisely spend that money they will be able to get very good players who we might have tried to get.

[Stairway 2 7]

The other way of looking at it is, what a colossal waste of money over the years. Incredible levels of underachievement vs the money punted in. Without the right people managing the income it's more or less irrelevant how much money is brought in.

Defo. But if they get their act together, we won't be able to financially match them unless we start upping our contributers

[BILLYHIBS]

Absolutely outstanding from Hearts

Credit where credit due they refused to let their club die

In the right hands it could be a game changer they also have some serious backers on board

They must be 100k ahead of us every month before a baw is kicked in anger

Time to Pony Up and get some serious backers on board

Cannae expect Wee Ron tae dae it aw himself doing a cracking job as it is

HSL member

[cocteautwin]

It’s mightily impressive indeed.

But if you want an indicator of how badly their club is run, do remember that aside from this £1m+ a year from the fans they are also firing through £3m annually from James Anderson and will do for the foreseeable future.

I guess one day it’ll eventually result in a cup success, but it’s not a League cup this season, that’s for sure.

[MWHIBBIES]

Wonder how much value they really get from it. Seems to be mostly pissed away.

Huge difference in the situations of both clubs, they need the FOH money far more than we need HSL. We also had europe, better cup runs, better league placing and we're massively increasing commercial revenues.

[Antifa Hibs]

Absolutely outstanding from Hearts

Credit where credit due they refused to let their club die

In the right hands it could be a game changer they also have some serious backers on board

They must be 100k ahead of us every month before a baw is kicked in anger

Time to Pony Up and get some serious backers on board

Cannae expect Wee Ron tae dae it aw himself doing a cracking job as it is

HSL member

The only people that refused to let their club die was the clueless Liths. Credit where its due FFS - they sat back and watched their club amass huge debts without questioning it but it was fine as they were getting one over the hobo's.

They'd probably be under again if it wasn't for Andersons £2-3m donations. Yet again, hearts fans aren't interested in the slightest. Fair play all round.

**** Hearts and the FOH.

Strange place this is at times.

[Since452]

Once they get their house in order it'll be massive for them. An extra 1.5 million a year.

[greenginger]

£128,337, thats what FOH donated to Hearts last month!!!!

Compare what we have donated through HSL

May 2021: £24,380.66June 2021: £20,478.20
July 2021: £19,221.41

These figures show how much Hearts will have to offer bigger wages to prospective signings, If you are finacially able please think about joining HSL and helping Hibs.

NB I am only a HSL member not a recruiting officer!:agree:

Any chance James Anderson has 5000 memberships ?. :greengrin

[Hibs4185]

It is impressive no doubt, but it’s a sign of how poorly hearts have been run in the past, culminating in administration, and continue to be run.

Hibs have spent time and money wisely off the pitch to create a solid foundation with good infrastructure leading to cup runs, European nights, strong player sales and achieving consistent league placings.

Hearts have had no significant player sales, no cup runs, no European nights, shambolic management, scatter gun signings and a half finished stadium, whilst burning through over £100k a month in FOH and £2-3 million a year of James Anderson money.

Impressive yes but I’d rather be in our position than living hand to mouth from donations.

[JimBHibees]

It is impressive no doubt, but it’s a sign of how poorly hearts have been run in the past, culminating in administration, and continue to be run.

Hibs have spent time and money wisely off the pitch to create a solid foundation with good infrastructure leading to cup runs, European nights, strong player sales and achieving consistent league placings.

Hearts have had no significant player sales, no cup runs, no European nights, shambolic management, scatter gun signings and a half finished stadium, whilst burning through over £100k a month in FOH and £2-3 million a year of James Anderson money.

Impressive yes but I’d rather be in our position than living hand to mouth from donations.

They were in the Scottish cup final year before last beating us in the semi.

[Pagan Hibernia]

They were in the Scottish cup final year before last beating us in the semi.

they were in consecutive Scottish cup finals… 2019 and 2020. Plus a league cup semi too.

[Col2]

The fans have done an incredible job.

On the field they have had two relegations and zero major trophies.

They have pissed away millions on terrible players and managers.

They should be miles ahead but Budge is still here and will be for another 2 years minimum.

[Alex Trager]

I see these figures quoted regularly and how good it is, no doubt it is a lot of money.

But, now correct me if I am wrong, that money is to maintain the club going forward. It needs to cover each and every expense, it’s not simply player funds.

Unless I am mistaken of course

[Onion]

Once they get their house in order it'll be massive for them. An extra 1.5 million a year.

About as much as they'll need to keep their corrogated stands compliant with H&S.

[BILLYHIBS]

The only people that refused to let their club die was the clueless Liths. Credit where its due FFS - they sat back and watched their club amass huge debts without questioning it but it was fine as they were getting one over the hobo's.

They'd probably be under again if it wasn't for Andersons £2-3m donations. Yet again, hearts fans aren't interested in the slightest. Fair play all round.

**** Hearts and the FOH.

Strange place this is at times.

Agree with all that but still pretty impressive in my book

Would be delighted if it was us and the glove was on the other foot

Ojo McGrath McCrorie Kerr and McCart would all be Hibees

Sometimes you just gotta doth your cap and say “ Well Done!”

Strange place this indeed

[LeithMike]

This is a major advantage and fair play to Hearts supporters. Still, what we dont know is whether that monthly amount includes significant donations from benefactors.

If, for example, two successful businessmen were contributing £50k a month each then, discounting those, donations from "fans" would be broadly similar.

It still makes me a bit uneasy with fans paying to get a better team on the park when there are so many other areas in life where money is needed. And let's face it, most modern day elite footballers arent short of cash.

I was all for HSL when acquiring shares but am not so sure now.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Slim Shady]

I see these figures quoted regularly and how good it is, no doubt it is a lot of money.

But, now correct me if I al wrong, that money is to maintain the club going forward. It needs to cover each and every expense, it’s not simply player funds.

Unless I am mistaken of course

Exactly. Slight financial oversight and they’re ****ed. Lockdown or Covid passport having an effect on commercial income will result in loss of turnover. Lot of factors that could scupper this fan ownership.

We are in safe hands with Ron and his team and should Ron want to sell on after his 5 year plan, then I’m sure we won’t be short of buyers.

[WhileTheChief..]

This is a major advantage and fair play to Hearts supporters. Still, what we dont know is whether that monthly amount includes significant donations from benefactors.

If, for example, two successful businessmen were contributing £50k a month each then, discounting those, donations from "fans" would be broadly similar.

It still makes me a bit uneasy with fans paying to get a better team on the park when there are so many other areas in life where money is needed. And let's face it, most modern day elite footballers arent short of cash.

I was all for HSL when acquiring shares but am not so sure now.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Clutching at straws here. They have around 8000 fans pledging, not comparable in the slightest.

Let them crack on. The only club in the country that needs handouts every month from fans. Bit of a beamer if you ask me but they seem kinda proud of it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I see these figures quoted regularly and how good it is, no doubt it is a lot of money.

But, now correct me if I al wrong, that money is to maintain the club going forward. It needs to cover each and every expense, it’s not simply player funds.

Unless I am mistaken of course

that money is completely separate from what’s hearts do as a football club. If they run the club/business sensibly and sustainably (and as we all know that’s a huge almighty “if” when it comes to hearts) then they should have a modest profit after everything has been paid for. They’ll then have this extra £1.5 million a year on top of that to spend on whatever they like basically. If they don’t run the club sustainably then the FOH money will cover their losses.

whilst it’s amusing to think about the astonishing amounts they’ve pished down the drain over the past few years that gives me little comfort going forward. All they have to do is replace the incompetent budge regime with someone who actually knows how to run a football club, and find a semi decent manager. Achieve those two things and it’s frankly worrying what they could achieve…

[Pagan Hibernia]

Exactly. Slight financial oversight and they’re ****ed. Lockdown or Covid passport having an effect on commercial income will result in loss of turnover. Lot of factors that could scupper this fan ownership.

We are in safe hands with Ron and his team and should Ron want to sell on after his 5 year plan, then I’m sure we won’t be short of buyers.

I agree entirely with the first half of this sentence. The second worries me. Thankfully we still have that 33% or so that is still in supporter hands.

[Jones28]

Impressive from the fan base? Absolutely, a credit to all those pledging, especially in the current climate.

Impressive from a business and revenue perspective when you need these donations to keep the club “sustainable”? Absolutely not.

[Alex Trager]

that money is completely separate from what’s hearts do as a football club. If they run the club/business sensibly and sustainably (and as we all know that’s a huge almighty “if” when it comes to hearts) then they should have a modest profit after everything has been paid for. They’ll then have this extra £1.5 million a year on top of that to spend on whatever they like basically. If they don’t run the club sustainably then the FOH money will cover their losses.

whilst it’s amusing to think about the astonishing amounts they’ve pished down the drain over the past few years that gives me little comfort going forward. All they have to do is replace the incompetent budge regime with someone who actually knows how to run a football club, and find a semi decent manager. Achieve those two things and it’s frankly worrying what they could achieve…

So how do they run the club if not through the FOH? How is it paid for?

[Paul1642]

As much as i love Hibs, they are like all football clubs a business at the end of the day, owned by a man richer than most of us combined.

It is not our job to fund that and if I were a hearts fan who had donated perhaps 3k of my own money since FOH began only to see the club achieve nothing but relegation and play poorly I would be fuming. Not many of us can justify that sort of money for nothing and if I could i would rather spend it on a strip for my kid and a few match tickets rather than a straight donation.

Good on them for saving their club at the moment of need but the direct debits should have been ended once saved. Cash cow comes to mind.

Another problem with this is that if all clubs run a scheme like this, the performance benefit for your club gets evened out by rival fans and all players in the league get richer at the fans expense.

[Pagan Hibernia]

So how do they run the club if not through the FOH? How is it paid for?

FoH is the entity that owns 75% of the club. It won’t actually run the club. The money they pump in every month is separate from the money Heart of Midlothian FC makes from ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship and the rest of it.

it’s a football club (that needs to be run as a business) with FOH as a majority shareholder.

[Glory Lurker]

How much of the FoH donations have been repaying Budge's loan each month? That's going to be free money going straight in to the club from now on?

[bod]

If 50% of folk that read this thread that aren’t HSL members sign up - even £5 a month. Then we could achieve something

[lord bunberry]

So how do they run the club if not through the FOH? How is it paid for?
The same way every other club is run. Ticket sales, tv money, sponsorships and player sales. They have all that plus the extra money that the fans are providing. Right now they’re not taking advantage of it because they’re so badly run, but if they get their act together the extra money will make a difference to their budget.

[Brightside]

Yet they still need secret donations. I’m happy supporting a club that’s run properly. Hibs fans buy season tickets. We shouldnt also have to donate to keep the show on the road.

[hibbydad]

How much of the FoH donations have been repaying Budge's loan each month? That's going to be free money going straight in to the club from now on?
You are right Glory Lurker

[mjhibby]

Wonder how much value they really get from it. Seems to be mostly pissed away.

Huge difference in the situations of both clubs, they need the FOH money far more than we need HSL. We also had europe, better cup runs, better league placing and we're massively increasing commercial revenues.

The foh and benny factor are merely covering their losses through huge overspend in wages. They will never be a big team as they are a shambles from top to bottom. The stories from riccarton on how unprofessional they are is hysterical. If we had the money they have had to spend I'd have expected europe every year as a minimum. Remember they were relegated when having a massive advantage over the likes of Hamilton. Plus no sealable assets bar souttar who clubs will be wary on taking a punt on.

[mjhibby]

that money is completely separate from what’s hearts do as a football club. If they run the club/business sensibly and sustainably (and as we all know that’s a huge almighty “if” when it comes to hearts) then they should have a modest profit after everything has been paid for. They’ll then have this extra £1.5 million a year on top of that to spend on whatever they like basically. If they don’t run the club sustainably then the FOH money will cover their losses.

whilst it’s amusing to think about the astonishing amounts they’ve pished down the drain over the past few years that gives me little comfort going forward. All they have to do is replace the incompetent budge regime with someone who actually knows how to run a football club, and find a semi decent manager. Achieve those two things and it’s frankly worrying what they could achieve…

I give you Sunderland,Ipswich,Sheffield Wednesday etc etc. Huge fan base but shambolic.

[Keith_M]

I thought the FoH money was intended to pay for the the purchase of shares.


If the shares have been handed over, and any money owed paid off, why are they still donating?


:dunno:

[Pagan Hibernia]

I give you Sunderland,Ipswich,Sheffield Wednesday etc etc. Huge fan base but shambolic.

do those clubs have six figure sums of free money coming in each month? (Genuine question btw I don’t know the answer).

if they don’t then it’s not really the same thing

[nonshinyfinish]

I thought the FoH money was intended to pay for the the purchase of shares.


If the shares have been handed over, and any money owed paid off, why are they still donating?


:dunno:

Surely you could say the same about HSL? No longer purchasing shares, but still giving money to Hibs to boost finances. FoH money tops up Hearts' finances in the same way.

[gbhibby]

Should now be able to afford their own training complex. If fans stop contributing is their business sustainable? It will take 10 to 15 years of this level of contributions to pay off the cost of the new stand. Impressive amount though.

[inglisavhibs]

£128,337, thats what FOH donated to Hearts last month!!!!

Compare what we have donated through HSL

May 2021: £24,380.66June 2021: £20,478.20
July 2021: £19,221.41

These figures show how much Hearts will have to offer bigger wages to prospective signings, If you are finacially able please think about joining HSL and helping Hibs.

NB I am only a HSL member not a recruiting officer!:agree:
They also get 3m a year from James Anderson. That’s around 4m extra funds they have over us once they have finished the stand. I think we do quite well with player recruitment in the circumstances.

[inglisavhibs]

Should now be able to afford their own training complex. If fans stop contributing is their business sustainable? It will take 10 to 15 years of this level of contributions to pay off the cost of the new stand. Impressive amount though.
That’s not true, Anderson’s money together with the fans money has already contributed the vast majority of that cost.

[BoomtownHibees]

Imagine sitting looking at how much you’ve spent over the last few years to see your team be as bad as they’ve been

[gbhibby]

That’s not true, Anderson’s money together with the fans money has already contributed the vast majority of that cost.
Was aware of that. Was only using it to illistrate costs.

[Northernhibee]

How much did Brora Rangers fans put into their club?

[cocteautwin]

How much did Brora Rangers fans put into their club?

Just enough to make them Cup Specialists. Same as Alloa Athletic.

[hibeemikey21]

All the more impressive that these donations have continued when you consider that many of them will have been hoovered up by Maulary Martin & Damour etcs long term, fairly lucrative salaries!

[mjhibby]

I dont get this obsession with money. Fair play to them for putting in the money but that's £12-15m pounds more than us they have had yet they haven't been close to us in the league. To me the Don's have wasted loads of money but they have at least had regular third places to show for it. It's more more important to have the right chairman,manager and recruitment. That's why we've been ahead of them since we came back up.

[Onceinawhile]

The best indicator of league placing is the wage bill.

Hearts have guffed it for years, but that won't continue forever. When it stops being the case, then we could be in trouble.

[WeeRussell]

If 50% of folk that read this thread that aren’t HSL members sign up - even £5 a month. Then we could achieve something

Yeah I can’t say comparing us to Hearts and their current position is enticing me if I’m honest.

[ahibby]

The best indicator of league placing is the wage bill.

Hearts have guffed it for years, but that won't continue forever. When it stops being the case, then we could be in trouble.

And it will, its only a matter of time until that extra cash starts to make a difference. When it does then lets not complain. If we can afford to help improve our team by donating to HSL. If we cant afford it then we shouldnt.

[RyeSloan]

I dont get this obsession with money. Fair play to them for putting in the money but that's £12-15m pounds more than us they have had yet they haven't been close to us in the league. To me the Don's have wasted loads of money but they have at least had regular third places to show for it. It's more more important to have the right chairman,manager and recruitment. That's why we've been ahead of them since we came back up.

But a combination of the right Chair etc. AND these additional funds is what you want.

We shouldn’t sit back and say Ach it’s OK as we have Ron, Ben n Jack.

[Skol]

Yet they still need secret donations. I’m happy supporting a club that’s run properly. Hibs fans buy season tickets. We shouldnt also have to donate to keep the show on the road.

This is how I feel. I pay a fair price for my season ticket. Hearts fans do as well but have an extra uplift that they all pay to watch their football (hoofball)

[ahibby]

This is how I feel. I pay a fair price for my season ticket. Hearts fans do as well but have an extra uplift that they all pay to watch their football (hoofball)

And thats fine mate. HOF will continue to subsidise Hearts income by about 1.5millions per year We (HSL members will continue to donate about quarter of a million per year. Eventually they might be able to pull away from us and if they do then we just have to accept it as a fact of life.

[He's here!]

I'm an HSL member, but I think trying to 'shame' fans into giving more of their own money to the club than they already do is wrong.

The monthly amounts we donate look very respectable to me bearing in mind that for many they will be in addition to season ticket purchases. Great if we can get the donations up but our situation is very different to the yams. They initially needed those donations to just to keep their club in existence after Romanov all but buried them. The focus then switched to being fan-owned. If the Hearts fans who have got into the habit of making a monthly donations are happy to keep doing so then so be it, but personally I think there's a limit to how much cash the club you support should expect from you. And let's face it, what have those Hearts fans got in return for their cash? A trophyless nine years and a couple of relegations.

[Not In The Know]

When Hearts get a good manager and wisely spend that money they will be able to get very good players who we might have tried to get.

they have had 30 years to learn how to stop *****in cash.

Budgie has picked up perfectly where her predecessors left off.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Jambos stepped up to the plate when their club was on the very brink of disappearing and have gone above and beyond since. Nobody can knock them for that. How many members do they have contributing to that £128,000?

[Bostonhibby]

I'm an HSL member, but I think trying to 'shame' fans into giving more of their own money to the club than they already do is wrong.

The monthly amounts we donate look very respectable to me bearing in mind that for many they will be in addition to season ticket purchases. Great if we can get the donations up but our situation is very different to the yams. They initially needed those donations to just to keep their club in existence after Romanov all but buried them. The focus then switched to being fan-owned. If the Hearts fans who have got into the habit of making a monthly donations are happy to keep doing so then so be it, but personally I think there's a limit to how much cash the club you support should expect from you. And let's face it, what have those Hearts fans got in return for their cash? A trophyless nine years and a couple of relegations.I'm the same as you.

It's not how much you've got, it's what you do with it.

The Budge years have been a glorious example of how much can be extracted and how much she could divert and deflect from the original purpose without so much as a whimper from them. Very similar behaviour to the Romanov years.

All the while getting a disproportionately poor return on their money, highlights being the relegation fiasco and the still unfinished, over budget single tier megastand.



Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[MWHIBBIES]

The Jambos stepped up to the plate when their club was on the very brink of disappearing and have gone above and beyond since. Nobody can knock them for that. How many members do they have contributing to that £128,000?

They also happily allowed it to get into that state. Stood by, loving every minute, no one asking questions as wages went unpaid for months.

[WhileTheChief..]

Look at the list of fan owned clubs that someone posted. They’re diddliest of diddy clubs on it.

Budge is a classic example of an incompetent spending other people’s money. The board at Hearts can spend willy-nilly with no accountability whatsoever and then just turn to the fans in Oliver type fashion and beg for more.

Apparently they’re the envy of every other club in the land. Erm, naw, I can’t think of anything worse.

[Not So Young]

The Jambos stepped up to the plate when their club was on the very brink of disappearing and have gone above and beyond since. Nobody can knock them for that. How many members do they have contributing to that £128,000?

FOH keep saying it's about 8,000 average monthly donation of £ 15

Any fan of any club would try to save their club if it was about to go bust thats not unusual.

The thing that impresses me about the FOH is that the club has been saved but the donations are still going in, I remember on here it was all "it will die down", "wait till they hit the first bump and have a crap season they'll all stop"

[Pagan Hibernia]

FOH keep saying it's about 8,000 average monthly donation of £ 15

Any fan of any club would try to save their club if it was about to go bust thats not unusual.

The thing that impresses me about the FOH is that the club has been saved but the donations are still going in, I remember on here it was all "it will die down", "wait till they hit the first bump and have a crap season they'll all stop"

yeah, it’s impressive, no doubt. Thing is though, is that sort of unconditional financial support not encouraging mismanagement? The fans could easily have punished the club for their shambolic performance over the last 5 years and caused positive change. If the FOH monthly contributions had dropped by 40 or 50k a month you can be sure budge would have got rid of Levein sooner. They could have sorted themselves out long before they were spiralling towards relegation.

as it is they know they can do whatever they like and the money will keep pouring in. Where’s the incentive to improve?

[weecounty hibby]

I have said this multiple times now but the only way they can raise more money is to ask the fans for more, or ask Anderson to donate more. Fan owned means fans paying more. They are basically operating as a charity. Hibs have knocked back multi millions in bids for our better players recently, I don't think they are in a position to do that.
They 100% cannot afford to stop paying into FOH now

[Pagan Hibernia]

I have said this multiple times now but the only way they can raise more money is to ask the fans for more, or ask Anderson to donate more. Fan owned means fans paying more. They are basically operating as a charity. Hibs have knocked back multi millions in bids for our better players recently, I don't think they are in a position to do that.
They 100% cannot afford to stop paying into FOH now

but the fact is that any football club should be able to operate sustainably without any help, either from a benefactor, or collectively from 8000 benefactors/fans.

A fan owned club therefore should be perfectly sustainable unless of course they want to operate beyond their means to try to compete with bigger fish out there…. And we all know hearts would never try to do that… :greengrin

[Not So Young]

yeah, it’s impressive, no doubt. Thing is though, is that sort of unconditional financial support not encouraging mismanagement? The fans could easily have punished the club for their shambolic performance over the last 5 years and caused positive change. If the FOH monthly contributions had dropped by 40 or 50k a month you can be sure budge would have got rid of Levein sooner. They could have sorted themselves out long before they were spiralling towards relegation.

as it is they know they can do whatever they like and the money will keep pouring in. Where’s the incentive to improve?


Very much agree.

Money always talks so if donations had dried up Levein would have gone sooner.

It's almost emotional blackmail ..... your club needs you to continue to contribute or we may go bust, or not be able to challenge at the top end of the table, kind of thing.

[truehibernian]

Might be wrong but all I see since they created FoH is two Scottish Championship titles, a relegation, no big cup or wee cup, four managers and two interim managers, utter embarrassment to teams from Brora, Alloa and Malta, and a near 100% overspend on a main stand that is as yet unfinished, and a BBC documentary showing how tin pot they are run behind the scenes. All that despite additional 7 figure donations from Anderson. :aok:

A fool and his money and all that :na na:

Joking aside, it's impressive financial support from the Jambos - just a shame that they've spent it like Richard Pryor in Brewster's Millions and chucked it away :greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

I'm confident, and not happy about it at all, that the complacency on here about the FoH funding will look pretty stupid in a couple of years time.

[truehibernian]

I'm confident, and not happy about it at all, that the complacency on here about the FoH funding will look pretty stupid in a couple of years time.

Why ? Serious question.

Hibs work to a model, one of identifying players that will develop and have sell on value. An aspiration most clubs have, but Hibs are showing that they are doing that well at present given the obvious interest in Doig, Ryan and Kevin. Look at the respective windows - are there any players they have signed that you would want at Hibs ? We've also secured players on longer contracts and they are paniciking about whether their main asset (Souttar) signs an extension.

Celtic and The Rangers are again the top 2 teams in Scotland, the battle will always be for 3rd and a cup if luck goes your way.

No one can see into the future, but for arguments sake, say someone pays £40 million for SJM - Hibs get a very decent payday from that which is a multiple of what they put in annually. Again, say someone pays £3 million for Doig - who we got from them for nothing - it's how that money is re-invested back into the football operation.

I don't see anything Hearts are doing, even with their 'guru' Savage, that has me worried in the slightest. The option is there for Hibs fans to pay into HSL which I always say is a great way to put money you can commit to, back into the club. But over the past 6 years, Hibs are arguably the far more professional (and successful) club of the two. It's not being complacent, it's looking at things objectively.

[Pretty Boy]

HSL and FOH are like chalk and cheese.

The latter was the only show in town when it went tits up. Donate or lose your club, once people get into that habit it's the kind of thing that just keeps ticking along. Look at how many gym subscriptions on the like get paid but go unused for months and years.

HSL never had that urgency and now that purchasing shares is no longer an option it's essentially pretty listless. An easy way to funnel money into the club but beyond that it doesn't do a lot, as the largest minority shareholder it really needs a renewed purpose.

The biggest issue I see with HSL is the club doesn't really want it. The £250K a year is welcome of course but beyond that it's a legacy of a previous regime. I'm sure there is more to come on that and the lie of the land will become a bit clearer. The biggest issue we have is if HSL fails a lot of shares become available and it's entirely possible the fans (HSL and individuals combined) could lose their collective blocking vote. That's not a suggestion anything untoward is going on but it should be a consideration.

We are where we are with HSL. There have been various little upticks in enthusiasm but £120K a month is pie in the sky stuff.

[WhileTheChief..]

What do you mean?

That 9000 or so of us as season tickets aren’t doing our bit by not making donations over and above??

If we ever have to rely fan donations to try be competitive we’re doing it wrong.

[Glory Lurker]

Why ? Serious question.

Hibs work to a model, one of identifying players that will develop and have sell on value. An aspiration most clubs have, but Hibs are showing that they are doing that well at present given the obvious interest in Doig, Ryan and Kevin. Look at the respective windows - are there any players they have signed that you would want at Hibs ? We've also secured players on longer contracts and they are paniciking about whether their main asset (Souttar) signs an extension.

Celtic and The Rangers are again the top 2 teams in Scotland, the battle will always be for 3rd and a cup if luck goes your way.

No one can see into the future, but for arguments sake, say someone pays £40 million for SJM - Hibs get a very decent payday from that which is a multiple of what they put in annually. Again, say someone pays £3 million for Doig - who we got from them for nothing - it's how that money is re-invested back into the football operation.

I don't see anything Hearts are doing, even with their 'guru' Savage, that has me worried in the slightest. The option is there for Hibs fans to pay into HSL which I always say is a great way to put money you can commit to, back into the club. But over the past 6 years, Hibs are arguably the far more professional (and successful) club of the two. It's not being complacent, it's looking at things objectively.

Over the last six years, no doubt about it, but it looks as if everyone is just expecting hearts to continue on their chaotic way. They might. But they've just got new owners and an additional income stream from the FoH funds that are now not paying Budge's loan (I asked a question about this earlier in the thread and was told that's correct, so am taking it it is).

Sure, Hibs will continue to run a steady ship and maybe get good income from player sales. If hearts were to do the same, they'll also have a wad of extra cash.

Whether it's appropriate or not for fans to pay over-and-above their ticket costs for success is not really a relevant debate here as the jambos are doing it and - I fear - will eventually reap the benefit of it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

HSL and FOH are like chalk and cheese.

The latter was the only show in town when it went tits up. Donate or lose your club, once people get into that habit it's the kind of thing that just keeps ticking along. Look at how many gym subscriptions on the like get paid but go unused for months and years.

HSL never had that urgency and now that purchasing shares is no longer an option it's essentially pretty listless. An easy way to funnel money into the club but beyond that it doesn't do a lot, as the largest minority shareholder it really needs a renewed purpose.

The biggest issue I see with HSL is the club doesn't really want it. The £250K a year is welcome of course but beyond that it's a legacy of a previous regime. I'm sure there is more to come on that and the lie of the land will become a bit clearer. The biggest issue we have is if HSL fails a lot of shares become available and it's entirely possible the fans (HSL and individuals combined) could lose their collective blocking vote. That's not a suggestion anything untoward is going on but it should be a consideration.

We are where we are with HSL. There have been various little upticks in enthusiasm but £120K a month is pie in the sky stuff.

certainly PB, all the evidence points that way. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get my head around why.

especially when, with a bit more work on the club’s part, they could get many thousands more (even if we never reach foh levels)

[truehibernian]

certainly PB, all the evidence points that way. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get my head around why.

especially when, with a bit more work on the club’s part, they could get many thousands more (even if we never reach foh levels)

FoH was set up to save their club - you'll never get a more emotive way to encourage donations. They have - to their credit - maintained the figures. But paying becomes habit, especially when the spectre of what went on before is not that long ago.

I've argued in the past that HSL should either rebrand itself, or devise far more creative ways to encourage fans to contribute. From the outside looking in though, Hibs are moving in the right direction and you can see with the off field activities there's a drive to be far more professional and attractive to fans, in particular young supporters.

The new media team have been excellent so far, the output has been really good. HSL just needs to review things, and as I say, devise a far better fan focused strategy to encourage more members to contribute, and that does involve closer links with the club and the hierarchy.

[WhileTheChief..]

I doubt there are thousands more Hibs fans waiting on the club saying or doing something before donating!!

Check the recent threads about ticket prices or food at the kiosks, they give a pretty clear indication of where we are.

Commercial income is what the club is focussing on, and rightly so. TVs to bring in an extra £1m a year - that's a fair chunk of FOH donations right there that they can never get!!!

For all the praise LD got, this was one area that we totally fell short on. No wonder RG wants to double the turnover - we were starting from such a low base.

Plenty more opportunities to raise cash before asking ordinary fans to fork out more.

Selling out ER remains the biggest cash cow out there. Keep us at the top of the league and it will happen more often!!

[Pagan Hibernia]

I doubt there are thousands more Hibs fans waiting on the club saying or doing something before donating!!

Check the recent threads about ticket prices or food at the kiosks, they give a pretty clear indication of where we are.

Commercial income is what the club is focussing on, and rightly so. TVs to bring in an extra £1m a year - that's a fair chunk of FOH donations right there that they can never get!!!

For all the praise LD got, this was one area that we totally fell short on. No wonder RG wants to double the turnover - we were starting from such a low base.

Plenty more opportunities to raise cash before asking ordinary fans to fork out more.

Selling out ER remains the biggest cash cow out there. Keep us at the top of the league and it will happen more often!!

in fairness WTC, you’ve said that before, only for an HSL initiative, or an appeal from the club to bring many more on board. I think there’s more out there who would pay in, maybe not thousands more, but certainly more. That’s not an appeal to them to do so of course. Far from it, each persons money is theirs to spend as they please. But the club’s less than interested position is baffling to me.

the rest of your post about the club being run in a proper business like manner, I agree with entirely

[Bostonhibby]

Might be wrong but all I see since they created FoH is two Scottish Championship titles, a relegation, no big cup or wee cup, four managers and two interim managers, utter embarrassment to teams from Brora, Alloa and Malta, and a near 100% overspend on a main stand that is as yet unfinished, and a BBC documentary showing how tin pot they are run behind the scenes. All that despite additional 7 figure donations from Anderson. :aok:

A fool and his money and all that :na na:

Joking aside, it's impressive financial support from the Jambos - just a shame that they've spent it like Richard Pryor in Brewster's Millions and chucked it away :greengrinYou're not wrong.

Annie's at the wheel[emoji898]

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[WhileTheChief..]

in fairness WTC, you’ve said that before, only for an HSL initiative, or an appeal from the club to bring many more on board. I think there’s more out there who would pay in, maybe not thousands more, but certainly more. That’s not an appeal to them to do so of course. Far from it, each persons money is theirs to spend as they please. But the club’s less than interested position is baffling to me.

the rest of your post about the club being run in a proper business like manner, I agree with entirely

My guess is that when RG approached STF initially, he would have been looking to buy the club 100% outright.

That he could only purchase around 80% or whatever was probably a sore one, but one he obviously could live with.

I think I'm right in saying that back when he took over, he wasn't keen on any selling any further shares. I'd be the same. He's just forked out millions for us, why would he want to sell some off straight away?

Who knows, maybe in the future when he is looking to get out he will offer shares to HSL before anyone else? Hopefully that's 20 odd years down the road though.

[Iggy Pope]

HSL and FOH are like chalk and cheese.

The latter was the only show in town when it went tits up. Donate or lose your club, once people get into that habit it's the kind of thing that just keeps ticking along. Look at how many gym subscriptions on the like get paid but go unused for months and years.

HSL never had that urgency and now that purchasing shares is no longer an option it's essentially pretty listless. An easy way to funnel money into the club but beyond that it doesn't do a lot, as the largest minority shareholder it really needs a renewed purpose.

The biggest issue I see with HSL is the club doesn't really want it. The £250K a year is welcome of course but beyond that it's a legacy of a previous regime. I'm sure there is more to come on that and the lie of the land will become a bit clearer. The biggest issue we have is if HSL fails a lot of shares become available and it's entirely possible the fans (HSL and individuals combined) could lose their collective blocking vote. That's not a suggestion anything untoward is going on but it should be a consideration.

We are where we are with HSL. There have been various little upticks in enthusiasm but £120K a month is pie in the sky stuff.

When I read this I really start to think I’m funnelling money chasing a big tart that doesn’t want to know. As I said on a different thread I’m looking forward to being able to ask these questions next time that big tart has her shareholders AGM. The club apathy towards HSL and our handouts is shameful, mind boggling. Downright bad ****ing manners. And has been for two regimes now.

[Pagan Hibernia]

When I read this I really start to think I’m funnelling money chasing a big tart that doesn’t want to know. As I said on a different thread I’m looking forward to being able to ask these questions next time that big tart has her shareholders AGM. The club apathy towards HSL and our handouts is shameful, mind boggling. Downright bad ****ing manners. And has been for two regimes now.

:greengrin:greengrin

[hibbysam]

Over £100k per month is a huge difference and while they may have *****ed it all so far, they seem to have decent football people in place now and making better decisions. If they put that £1.25m per year to good use then it’s a huge gap for us. Nobody should be shamed into taking it, but we can’t then be critical if hearts pulled away.

Hopefully our increased commercial ability will help bridge the gap, and our player recruitment should also increase our turnover when we inevitably sell one or two on!

We have our model and they have theirs, but for the sake of £10 per month from a few thousand fans it could make all the difference. It needs marketed properly though.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Our scheme was bungled from the start, with those ********s from our own support spreading their lies about Ponzi schemes.

then there was HSL themselves. I intended to join it a full year before I did. I sent them an email with what I thought were a couple of pretty simple queries before I parted with any money. After about a week with no response I sent them a Twitter message. Still nothing. Disillusioned, I didn’t join for another year, so straight away that was 12 months worth of my cash that they (and the club) missed out on. And I’m 100% certain I wasn’t the only one with that sort of experience. In fairness to the indefatigable volunteers at HSL their communication and response time has been much better since then.

add to that the club’s insistence on keeping them at arms length and lack of interest and between them all they’ve made a proper mess of something that could have been much more than it is.

[Peevemor]

It'll be interesting to see how things go once Budge gives up her place to an elected FOH uberblazer (I imagine that's what's planned).

You only have to look at this place to say how split a support can be, even when things are going relatively well.

The first sign of things going tits up on the field at Tynie - and it will happen (it happens to all teams at some point), the fan ownership thing takes on a different complexion. Even though individual fans won't be running the club day to day, the knives could come out quite quickly for the FOH appointee(s) at the helm of the club.

This is where we could see protests in different forms, including the cancellation of donations, which could then become problematic if their business model is too reliant on these donations (as it already is).

[Eyrie]

It'll be interesting to see how things go once Budge gives up her place to an elected FOH uberblazer (I imagine that's what's planned).

You only have to look at this place to say how split a support can be, even when things are going relatively well.

The first sign of things going tits up on the field at Tynie - and it will happen (it happens to all teams at some point), the fan ownership thing takes on a different complexion. Even though individual fans won't be running the club day to day, the knives could come out quite quickly for the FOH appointee(s) at the helm of the club.

This is where we could see protests in different forms, including the cancellation of donations, which could then become problematic if their business model is too reliant on these donations (as it already is).

The direct debits won't get cancelled because people get used to them and after a while don't even notice.

If there was ever an obvious time for Hearts fans to cancel then it was a couple of years ago when they were struggling at the bottom of the league under Levein and Stendel, but the money didn't stop.

[EI255]

Are people forgetting, Hearts fans only started this scheme because the alternative was Go Bust. We didn't have that worry. The sh2t basically hit the fan and they had zero choice but to save the silly old club.

They now rely on the muppets cash.

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[EI255]

I'd always rather spend money on my family. Not a football team. Their choice, but smacks me of being a childish thing to do.

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[EI255]

The only people that refused to let their club die was the clueless Liths. Credit where its due FFS - they sat back and watched their club amass huge debts without questioning it but it was fine as they were getting one over the hobo's.

They'd probably be under again if it wasn't for Andersons £2-3m donations. Yet again, hearts fans aren't interested in the slightest. Fair play all round.

**** Hearts and the FOH.

Strange place this is at times.Well said!

F every one of them.

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[hibbysam]

I'd always rather spend money on my family. Not a football team. Their choice, but smacks me of being a childish thing to do.

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Nobody is asking you to choose though, and I’m certainly not childish for putting my hard earned in. I spend a fortune on Hibs and i don’t regret any single penny of it. I also spend a fortune on the house and kids and likewise, don’t regret one bit of that either.

[cocteautwin]

Over the last six years, no doubt about it, but it looks as if everyone is just expecting hearts to continue on their chaotic way. They might. But they've just got new owners and an additional income stream from the FoH funds that are now not paying Budge's loan (I asked a question about this earlier in the thread and was told that's correct, so am taking it it is).

Sure, Hibs will continue to run a steady ship and maybe get good income from player sales. If hearts were to do the same, they'll also have a wad of extra cash.

Whether it's appropriate or not for fans to pay over-and-above their ticket costs for success is not really a relevant debate here as the jambos are doing it and - I fear - will eventually reap the benefit of it.

The FoH funds haven't been paying Budge's loan for a long time. The initial loan was £2.6m and this was fully contributed by FoH about 5 years ago. Since then FoH have sent an additional £10m to the club for Budge to waste so it's not a new income stream.

This is all quite small compared to Anderson's contributions we need to remember. By the time the next accounts are published I think we'll find that he's sent in close to £20m to the club for a total wastage of additional funds by Budge amounting to some £30m+. Imagine what they could have achieved if they had someone sensible to spend that money other than a business dinosaur.

The danger, as you rightly point out, is that one day those extra funds start to make a big difference in performance but aside from possibly a frustrating win
or two against us this season, the earliest they could see any results might be next years cup, but then all it takes is a tough draw like Alloa or a Brora to further the comedy.

[Newhaven]

Are people forgetting, Hearts fans only started this scheme because the alternative was Go Bust. We didn't have that worry. The sh2t basically hit the fan and they had zero choice but to save the silly old club.

They now rely on the muppets cash.

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Nail on head. You couldn’t buy the starting point they had for the FOH basically blackmailing the fans to pay as if you don’t the club will die ASAP.

[flash]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

Where do they find these clowns?

'Our friends across the city' is up there with 'the docksiders' in the cringe stakes. Things said by guys desperate to be 'one of the lads'.

[He's here!]

I'm confident, and not happy about it at all, that the complacency on here about the FoH funding will look pretty stupid in a couple of years time.

I'm not seeing any complacency. Folk are well aware that Hearts fans have been throwing a lot of money at the club for years. Thus far it's yielded nothing in terms of tangible success but even if they do get their house in order and make good use of the funding the question most on here are asking is whether supporting your football club should mean paying for its day to day running as well as shelling out for your match ticket. I don't know what the minimum monthly donation to FOH is, but should those who now own the club not be getting into games for free like any other owner?

Someone's used the example of a gym membership. You could liken it to any club membership eg you wouldn't expect to pay your annual golf club membership subs and then be charged a green fee when you turned up for a game.

[He's here!]

HSL and FOH are like chalk and cheese.

The latter was the only show in town when it went tits up. Donate or lose your club, once people get into that habit it's the kind of thing that just keeps ticking along. Look at how many gym subscriptions on the like get paid but go unused for months and years.

HSL never had that urgency and now that purchasing shares is no longer an option it's essentially pretty listless. An easy way to funnel money into the club but beyond that it doesn't do a lot, as the largest minority shareholder it really needs a renewed purpose.

The biggest issue I see with HSL is the club doesn't really want it. The £250K a year is welcome of course but beyond that it's a legacy of a previous regime. I'm sure there is more to come on that and the lie of the land will become a bit clearer. The biggest issue we have is if HSL fails a lot of shares become available and it's entirely possible the fans (HSL and individuals combined) could lose their collective blocking vote. That's not a suggestion anything untoward is going on but it should be a consideration.

We are where we are with HSL. There have been various little upticks in enthusiasm but £120K a month is pie in the sky stuff.

Good point. That's the sense I get with it. I've been very impressed by Ron Gordon whenever I've seen him interviewed and I'd be surprised if addressing what, if any, role HSL has to play long term is not on his to do list.

[green.oracle]

£128,337, thats what FOH donated to Hearts last month!!!!

Compare what we have donated through HSL

May 2021: £24,380.66June 2021: £20,478.20
July 2021: £19,221.41

These figures show how much Hearts will have to offer bigger wages to prospective signings, If you are finacially able please think about joining HSL and helping Hibs.

NB I am only a HSL member not a recruiting officer!:agree:

If you believe the figures!!

Remember, they have 400,000 so called fans!! :greengrin:greengrin:faf::faf::blah::blah:

[He's here!]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

Is this the guy that came from the SRU? Looks and sounds as though rugby is his preferred sport.

[Greenbeard]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

"Our friends across the city are telling us they're top of the league."
Eh? We don't need to tell you. It's there in black and white in hard objective evidence.
Ah, but maybe across the city it's who you have played that determines who is TOTL. Same principle as saying the side in the relegation zone shouldn't be relegated, eh?

[Daniel 1875]

I'm not seeing any complacency. Folk are well aware that Hearts fans have been throwing a lot of money at the club for years. Thus far it's yielded nothing in terms of tangible success but even if they do get their house in order and make good use of the funding the question most on here are asking is whether supporting your football club should mean paying for its day to day running as well as shelling out for your match ticket. I don't know what the minimum monthly donation to FOH is, but should those who now own the club not be getting into games for free like any other owner?

Someone's used the example of a gym membership. You could liken it to any club membership eg you wouldn't expect to pay your annual golf club membership subs and then be charged a green fee when you turned up for a game.

I think the difference is that the FoH donations aren’t going to be paying for the day to day running costs of the club. The season ticket sales, commercial revenue, shirt sales etc will be paying for the day to day running of the club just like they do at most clubs in Scotland.

Unless there’s a disaster - which no one can rule out - the FoH money is going to be a nice little bonus every year to the tune of about £1.5m in extra cash available for players.

The FoH are a separate entity to the football club and the money they raise can be spent however they want now the club has been bought. They can donate it to Hearts, they can lend it to Hearts and get it back, they can keep it for use on specific projects such as the youth academy, building a statue of X, investing in historical trust items etc.

I don’t think anyone should be ‘shamed’ into doing anything and the idea that fans have to contribute to Hibernian Supporters because of what fans of another club are doing is never going to attract people to sign up, but hopefully in the near future we’ll have more clarity on HS and it’s relationship with the club to share with members - once that is clear then we can get our heads together to try and find a creative and successful way to drive up the membership numbers.

[Crunchie]

"Our friends across the city are telling us they're top of the league."
Eh? We don't need to tell you. It's there in black and white in hard objective evidence.
Ah, but maybe across the city it's who you have played that determines who is TOTL. Same principle as saying the side in the relegation zone shouldn't be relegated, eh?
I'd suggest any Hearts fan telling you or anyone else they're TOTL are at the wind up and it's clearly working. It was called good old banter back in the day :wink:

[Pagan Hibernia]

I'm not seeing any complacency. Folk are well aware that Hearts fans have been throwing a lot of money at the club for years. Thus far it's yielded nothing in terms of tangible success but even if they do get their house in order and make good use of the funding the question most on here are asking is whether supporting your football club should mean paying for its day to day running as well as shelling out for your match ticket. I don't know what the minimum monthly donation to FOH is, but should those who now own the club not be getting into games for free like any other owner?

Someone's used the example of a gym membership. You could liken it to any club membership eg you wouldn't expect to pay your annual golf club membership subs and then be charged a green fee when you turned up for a game.

very good post with some points that I hadn’t considered.

[greenginger]

It’s interesting who the FoH membership have elected to represent them.

There are 6 current directors, 2 accountants, 1 financial planner , 1 lawyer , 1 add-man and a builder.

Budge allows FoH , the club owners , to have two directors and they are one accountant and the lawyer.

Not exactly a reflection of the membership I would have thought.

[The Tubs]

I'd suggest any Hearts fan telling you or anyone else they're TOTL are at the wind up and it's clearly working. It was called good old banter back in the day :wink:

It's a pitiful attempt at humour. Real humour would be asking: "If you're top of the league, does that mean Brora would win it?" or "Are you saving up to pay for your poppies this year?".

[KeithTheHibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

Usual ***** from them. An article about Hearts gets direct quotes about Hibs. Obsessed with us.

I hope the entire squad read this before Sunday. Will be my first game back since covid, would love to see us stick it up these arrogant *****.

[Bostonhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.Pretty happy that he's there to be honest, looks like he'll fit right in with Mrs doctor Budge who STILL has her hands on the joystick.

Another smug looking sort whose face should fit around the golf club and in the egg chasing boardrooms.

Obviously not an independent thinker as he's bought right into the need to somehow present them as "bigger" and more successful than they actually are.

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[Since452]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.

Didn't know he existed until reading that but he seems very, very Hearts.

[WhileTheChief..]

It says he was Chief Exec at St Andrews, I wonder if that means the R&A?

Greg McEwan maybe worked under him in his marketing role, must have been there at the same time.

[Billy Whizz]

It says he was Chief Exec at St Andrews, I wonder if that means the R&A?

Greg McEwan maybe worked under him in his marketing role, must have been there at the same time.


He’ll fit in really well at Hearts

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/scottish-golf-stakeholders-ask-did-andrew-mckinlay-fall-own-sword-or-was-he-pushed-2545697%3famp

[truehibernian]

He’ll fit in really well at Hearts

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/scottish-golf-stakeholders-ask-did-andrew-mckinlay-fall-own-sword-or-was-he-pushed-2545697%3famp

He just looks and sounds ‘Hearts’ Billy - it’s like Scott Wilson, Hearts could be playing Cowdenbeath and he’d get a Hibs reference over the half time tannoy - even their social media too. We’ve a mate who continually uses ‘the famous’ and ‘big team’ in any football conversation and he gets the utter Lilian Gish ripped out of him by fans of all clubs. They really are a very very strange self entitled and self appointed bunch over the road.

[EI255]

They seem quite worked up today (see BBC) regarding a team who are their rivals, yet have half the expenditure they have.

Bitter, bitter stuff.

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[EI255]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-chief-fires-hibs-warning-24904996.amp?__twitter_impression=true

This boy will fit in well. Smug twat.Couldn't be bothered finding the link for the blue nosed moroon **** piece

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[Bostonhibby]

Couldn't be bothered finding the link for the blue nosed moroon **** piece

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Having had a proper look at this blazer buster, is anyone else thinking someone has stuck a bike pump into Mike Yarwoods inner tube here and substantially inflated him?



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