Challenging the Old Firm

[Magpie]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?

[Greencore]

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?
About 25 million. That's taking into account English interest in Scottish based players, transfer fees and wages.

[Jones28]

It would take way more than anyone would be willing to invest in Scottish football.

[Andy74]

Their wage bills are both in excess of £40m per year plus any fees they pay out.

It is possible with the right coaching and luck that you could challenge them for less but you'd probably have to be aiming to spend a total of about £50m every year to compete.

We don't have that income coming in so that's over £40m of someone else's money every year.

[jacomo]

About 25 million. That's taking into account English interest in Scottish based players, transfer fees and wages.


I’m not sure it would. Some canny recruitment and a hefty slice of luck could do the job.

That’s as a one off… to sustain it, you probably would need to invest that kind of money.

With a champions league place on offer, there’s never been a better time to try.

[Brightside]

You’d need £100m for the project and to then make it repeatable about £30m a year turnover.

[Hibernian Verse]

Let's do it. Ticket prices up to £50.

[Brightside]

Let's do it. Ticket prices up to £50.

Season tickets £550.

[Smartie]

The main thing that normally stops anyone being able to get close is the level of consistency shown against “weaker” teams. The OF routinely beat them, even when not playing well and even after playing big European games through the week.

Last season (and already this season) Jack Ross seems to have taken great steps towards improving this for Hibs, so much so that there was a fair bit of disappointment when we dropped points at Dens.

I suspect both Rangers and Celtic will drop more points this season than they have in recent years, so the gap I reckon will be smaller.

It’s still a huge ask for anyone to climb to that next level though, and I’m not sure “Scottish football glory” means enough to anyone to part with the millions of hard earned that it would likely take to bridge that gap.

FWIW I don’t necessarily think it would take £40m - I still think the OF waste shed loads of cash. It would still take a very decent chunk of cash - spent very wisely - in order to get someone to challenge.

[Pretty Boy]

Tens of millions.

Look at the money Hearts spent with 2 Scottish Cups and an administration to show for it. Rangers literally bankrupted themselves just to maintain their level and even then they were on the decline when it finally went tits up.

I have always thought a Scottish club would be an option for someone looking to get a club a few trophies and into the Champions League though. To do it with an English team costs literally billions now, it makes the odd £50-60M looks small fry in comparison.

[degenerated]

About 25 million. That's taking into account English interest in Scottish based players, transfer fees and wages.What about referees :greengrin

[CMurdoch]

The problem is that the investment has to be sustained year after year.
Our paltry 11,000 season ticket holders against their massive numbers tell you all you need to know about a possible challenge.
If we could fill our ground with season ticket holders at double the current price we would be on track for a real go but neither part of that is happening.

Before the wheels came off with covid we were sitting at 13,500 season ticket holders. It would be a good start if we could get back to those numbers in 2 seasons.
That will in turn allow us to bring in better players which in turn could see us as regular group stage participants in the European Conference which means more income. A higher profile could then see Hibs target 15,000 season ticket holders.
Basically progress towards the Old Firm can be made but it will be slow and incremental, importantly, however, it will be sustainable.

Essentially though, Hibs need to be the best Hibs they can be and ignore what the Old Firm are doing.
Like the Old Firm our playing progress will be most accurately assessed by our progress in European competition but at a different level.
I'm happy that after almost 30 years of hard work we are now seeing real progress from a stable base at Hibs.
As a result covid stopped our momentum but didn't derail us.

[Selkirkhibs]

Its likely within ten years or sooner we won't have to. They'll join the English league or hook up with an inaugural European tier of some sort. Its inevitable imo.

[worcesterhibby]

The problem is that the investment has to be sustained year after year.
Our paltry 11,000 season ticket holders against their massive numbers tell you all you need to know about a possible challenge.
If we could fill our ground with season ticket holders at double the current price we would be on track for a real go but neither part of that is happening.

Before the wheels came off with covid we were sitting at 13,500 season ticket holders. It would be a good start if we could get back to those numbers in 2 seasons.
That will in turn allow us to bring in better players which in turn could see us as regular group stage participants in the European Conference which means more income. A higher profile could then see Hibs target 15,000 season ticket holders.
Basically progress towards the Old Firm can be made but it will be slow and incremental, importantly, however, it will be sustainable.

Essentially though, Hibs need to be the best Hibs they can be and ignore what the Old Firm are doing.
Like the Old Firm our playing progress will be most accurately assessed by our progress in European competition but at a different level.
I'm happy that after almost 30 years of hard work we are now seeing real progress from a stable base at Hibs.
As a result covid stopped our momentum but didn't derail us.

Very well put. I agree with all that, but I'd add that I think we will start to bring in more money from sponsorship and other commercial income now that we have got Both Ron Gordon and maybe even more importantly Ben Kensall in place as Owner and CEO. You can also see the strategy of investment in the best Scottish players now paying off and our insistence on only parting with them if other clubs meet our valuations. I think in the next 10 years Hibs will make a sizeable and consistent income from transfers, which if invested back in the team, will lead to sustained improvements. There will be set backs and replacing our best players is never easy, but I do see the next 5-10 years as being a real opportunity for Hibs to consistently be a top 4 club (which we have not managed to do for 50 years) and maybe even push for a 2nd place finish at some point if one of the Glasgow clubs slip up. What's almost more important is that we turn our good cup runs into trophies. If we won 3 or 4 cups in the next 10 years that would be a good return on investment I would say.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

We would need a season with no window. Both the Old Filth have the clout to buy and bench if any teams are getting too near.

[CentreLine]

We would need a season with no window. Both the Old Filth have the clout to buy and bench if any teams are getting too near.


True. And in the past, at least, there appears to have been the backing of dodgy banking practice to prevent competitors financing improvement.

[JimboHibs]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?

A bigger league without the clamour for potentially 4 games against the old firm for starters,this nonsense that its a potential money spinner when playing either Rangers/Celtic is cringe.The fact that clubs in our top division are still reliant on playing the old firm for revenue sums up the state of our game,its run by prehistoric ********s.Under the current set up its virtually impossible for any team to grow , all clubs outwith the old firm's record in Europe is evidence of that.

[Joe6-2]

A bigger league without the clamour for potentially 4 games against the old firm for starters,this nonsense that its a potential money spinner when playing either Rangers/Celtic is cringe.The fact that clubs in our top division are still reliant on playing the old firm for revenue sums up the state of our game,its run by prehistoric ********s.Under the current set up its virtually impossible for any team to grow , all clubs outwith the old firm's record in Europe is evidence of that.

Good point

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

Leicester proved that you can do it without the big transfers and wages (relatively speaking) but those instances are rare.

[MWHIBBIES]

Leicester proved that you can do it without the big transfers and wages (relatively speaking) but those instances are rare.

Leicester proved that if 6 better sides all had bad seasons at the same time, you can finish above them. They also kinda lucked into a few world class players in ****e and Mahrez. Never likely to happen to Hibs. They also got some ridiculous refereeing decisions in their favour, probably because of the old fairytale narrative.

A fantastic achievement, one I enjoyed watching, but rarer than rare.

[ian cruise]

Leicester proved that if 6 better sides all had bad seasons at the same time, you can finish above them. They also kinda lucked into a few world class players in ****e and Mahrez. Never likely to happen to Hibs. They also got some ridiculous refereeing decisions in their favour, probably because of the old fairytale narrative.

A fantastic achievement, one I enjoyed watching, but rarer than rare.

Leicester were (and still are) pretty wealthy too compared to many of the clubs in the EPL, it's not like they were all canny purchases and products of their youth system.

[Andy74]

Leicester were (and still are) pretty wealthy too compared to many of the clubs in the EPL, it's not like they were all canny purchases and products of their youth system.

Their wage bill was about a third of the likes of Man City. Ours would be nearer a tenth of the Old Firm.

[WhileTheChief..]

You’d need £100m for the project and to then make it repeatable about £30m a year turnover.

And we'd be the Scottish PSG.

Horrible thought. We all scoff at the money the biggest clubs throw around and slag them off as plastic. A road I hope we never go down.

[matty_f]

Their wage bills are both in excess of £40m per year plus any fees they pay out.

It is possible with the right coaching and luck that you could challenge them for less but you'd probably have to be aiming to spend a total of about £50m every year to compete.

We don't have that income coming in so that's over £40m of someone else's money every year.

:agree:

I think to sustain a challenge on them, you’re starting point is probably closer to £100m when you consider transfer fees and wages required to bring players in who would, position for position, be better than Rangers and Celtic with the necessary squad depth.

That’s not to say it can’t be done for less, but you’d require fantastic management, a great eye for a bargain, and a ton of luck to do it for much less than that.

[Lago]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?
Never ever going to happen, there is little interest in Scottish football outside of Scotland, unless your a Scottish exile.

[AgentDaleCooper]

We'd basically need a squad's worth of Agathe/Latapy type signings, which involve a lot of luck, and in the latter case, more money than we have at the moment.

[jgl07]

Its likely within ten years or sooner we won't have to. They'll join the English league or hook up with an inaugural European tier of some sort. Its inevitable imo.

Firstly there isn't a hope in hell of the Premier League in England admitting either Rangers or Celtic. The pressure is on to reduce the EPL to 18 teams. That would mean five teams relegated out of twenty. Outside of the usual top-four (City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea), no-one can feel that they are absolutely safe. So the votes will not be there for reduction. Add in booting out two more teams to accommodate the ugly sisters ensures it ain't going to happen. Rangers fans pissed off most of English football after their UEFA Cup Final at the Etihad and Celtic have had their moments in the past.

As for the Atlantic League, this has been rumbling for 25 years or more. Best of luck with for anyone trying to get that to happen. I can see potential for a Benelux League and maybe a Scandinavian League, but I don't see Rangers or Celtic fitting into either.

[GRA]

Interesting article from the BBC today highlighting the reasons why challenging the Old Firm for the title is a near impossible task:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66359978

The financial gulf is mentioned as well as stability, consistency of high-level coaching, recruitment, promotion of top academy players and overcoming the psychological barrier.

Funnily enough they seem to have overlooked refereeing bias....

[NAE NOOKIE]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?

Said it before, someone out there is missing a trick. Compared to most leagues the amount you would need to invest would be paltry and any club that could end the Uglies 40 year domination of the league would make headlines around the world. I doubt any of that would make us a champion's league contender, but if the Sticky Buns can make the Europa League final I'm pretty sure a Hibs team with the kind of investment we are talking about could.

That kind of owner is nice to think about. Not absolutely impossible, but pretty close to it unfortunately :boo hoo:

[7Hero]

re the article the last parapgraph is wrong

"There's a simple fix: just get yourself a modern-day Ferguson or McLean, find them a bottomless pit of cash and provide them with top recruitment and generational academy talent.

Then, all you need to do is close your eyes, cross your fingers and hope they stick around long enough to see the plan come to fruition, and that is only if we stop having corrupt officials and a corrupt governing body, actually forget it. It's Impossible"

[Lago]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?
Never happen

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Is this the right time for someone willing to invest a lot of money into a Scottish football team to challenge the Old Firm? With Champions League group stages being guaranteed for this seasons champions and potentially future seasons it could be worth investing with plenty of revenue to be made if you come out as league champions.

Hibs for example, how much do you think it would take us to spend to improve the squad to a level of being on par with the Old Firm?

25-30 million invested wisely and hibs MIGHT split the old firm, we don’t have that though and there’s no guarantee it’d be used wisely. All imo of course.


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[weecounty hibby]

Hate to say it but no one will ever win the Scottish league again unless the bigot twins leave for some other mythical league. They average 3 x the hone crowds of Hibs and hearts. They also have hundreds of thousands of brainwashed fans around the world who buy merchandise etc. Growing up I did believe that we could win the league, I watched aberdand Dundee utd win and the tarts come hilariously close. But since around 1990 it has become increasingly clear that they are just out if our range sadly. The best we can do is as has been seen recently. Improve on and off filed business activity, reinvest better and aim for 3rd and a cup or two.

[Smartie]

Hate to say it but no one will ever win the Scottish league again unless the bigot twins leave for some other mythical league. They average 3 x the hone crowds of Hibs and hearts. They also have hundreds of thousands of brainwashed fans around the world who buy merchandise etc. Growing up I did believe that we could win the league, I watched aberdand Dundee utd win and the tarts come hilariously close. But since around 1990 it has become increasingly clear that they are just out if our range sadly. The best we can do is as has been seen recently. Improve on and off filed business activity, reinvest better and aim for 3rd and a cup or two.

Never is a long time.

I expect the stars to align once or twice in our lifetime and for someone to have a pop at it. Either the right youth team comes together at the right time, an outstanding young coach who goes on to be one of the biggest in the game puts together a precocious side or a natural team cycle comes together at the right time and you've got the "non OF team being good enough" side of it coming together. There's also the possibility of a team consolidating 3rd place and taking the resultant Euro spoils and pulling away from the rest, albeit still a distance behind the OF. You might even get the "Mad Vlad" approach where someone comes it, takes over a team and spends money wildly beyond the club's means in order to punch wildly above their weight.

I wouldn't rule out Rangers dying again and with them in the doldrums or ceasing to exist, it lessens the need for Celtic to be on their game. Again, it requires the stars aligning and I have to stress how unlikely it is or infrequently I expect someone to get in about them, but once or twice in lifetime isn't too much to ask. But Rangers and Celtic have both had serious "doldrums" spells within the past 40 years, it would be a surprise if it was plain sailing all the way for both of them, all the time. I'd be surprised if either, for example, were prepared to tolerate a sustained period of playing second fiddle to the other, which again we might be about to find out with Rangers. 50,000 - 60,000 people turning up every week might quickly turn into a fraction of that when there seems to be no hope of success.

[Nicho87]

Playing them 8 x a season is farcical

[Oscar T Grouch]

Playing them 8 x a season is farcical

That is the one thing that suits them perfectly and would be much better for every other team if it changed, playing them once at home and once away mitigates a lot of points they claim off teams, simply down to them having more resources in coaching, playing staff, medical staff etc. Take that away and if you get a result against one or both in a season it will count for more. Playing them both 4 time means any good result is usually wiped out by 3 bad results against them in the same season. It is the best argument for an expanded league.

[Hibs4185]

Interesting article from the BBC today highlighting the reasons why challenging the Old Firm for the title is a near impossible task:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66359978

The financial gulf is mentioned as well as stability, consistency of high-level coaching, recruitment, promotion of top academy players and overcoming the psychological barrier.

Funnily enough they seem to have overlooked refereeing bias....

Biggest thing for me is playing them 4 times a year. If Leicester had to play the big 5 four times a year they never have won the premier league.

[Tambo]

I thought Hearts won the league a good few year ago in October?

Seriously though I am realistic and don't think I'll ever see us win the premier league, 37 years and waiting.

The financial gap is just to much for any other club, just look at the Huns when they had to live within their means we could compete with them.

The best anyone could hope for is 2nd with a great season with one of the other having a bad season, we did give it a good go under McLeish before failing at the end.

[The Modfather]

You do wonder what could have happened if the golden generation came through now. Given what what we invest in the first team now we might have been able to keep the team together for another season or two. With investment in a few key positions in that teamand the right manager….

Still unlikely, but as close to a scenario of all the stars aligning as I can think of.

[Eyrie]

There's a straightforward solution that will make the league more competitive and improve Scottish society at the same time.

Deduct three points from the Ugly Sisters every time their fans sing a song about religious hatred or terrorism.