Case for the defence Part 62

[theonlywayisup]

Ever since the Scottish Cup Final 2016, it feels like there have been repeated calls for an overhaul of our defence. Yet here we are, starting the 2021/22 campaign, with a defence that could have as many as 75% of the defence that became legends in 2016. If we end the 2021/22 campaign with a defence that comprises Stevenson, McGregor and Hanlon, I'll be seriously disappointed and I would throw in Paul McGinn into the mix too.

A couple of years ago, I was in the "it's not the defence that we should sort out" camp as I believed our problem was a midfield that contributed nothing - they weren't creative enough to build attacks nor robust enough to protect the defence. However, I think we've sorted that out now. The focus has to be 100% on the overhaul of the defence.

In many ways, we've been lucky in recent seasons. We recruited Paul McGinn to plug a gap after we realised how poor Tom James was and PM had 12-18 months of fantastic service, but the signs are there that we need better. Josh Doig has been excellent, for most games, but will likely be away in the next 6-12 months. Porto has all the makings of being a "top-class" defender, but needs to be protected from having to play every single game. The aforementioned Stevenson, McGregor and Hanlon all continue to provide excellent service to Hibernian FC, but it's clear that they struggle against the better class of player - in fact our whole defence does.

So, IMO. we need a complete overhaul of the defence. We need a better quality of defender and competition for all four positions, even if any incoming player starts of as back-up to players like Hanlon and Porto. Over the season, we need to ensure that we end the season with a much better defence that we've started it.

[Key West]

Ever since the Scottish Cup Final 2016, it feels like there have been repeated calls for an overhaul of our defence. Yet here we are, starting the 2021/22 campaign, with a defence that could have as many as 75% of the defence that became legends in 2016. If we end the 2021/22 campaign with a defence that comprises Stevenson, McGregor and Hanlon, I'll be seriously disappointed and I would throw in Paul McGinn into the mix too.

A couple of years ago, I was in the "it's not the defence that we should sort out" camp as I believed our problem was a midfield that contributed nothing - they weren't creative enough to build attacks nor robust enough to protect the defence. However, I think we've sorted that out now. The focus has to be 100% on the overhaul of the defence.

In many ways, we've been lucky in recent seasons. We recruited Paul McGinn to plug a gap after we realised how poor Tom James was and PM had 12-18 months of fantastic service, but the signs are there that we need better. Josh Doig has been excellent, for most games, but will likely be away in the next 6-12 months. Porto has all the makings of being a "top-class" defender, but needs to be protected from having to play every single game. The aforementioned Stevenson, McGregor and Hanlon all continue to provide excellent service to Hibernian FC, but it's clear that they struggle against the better class of player - in fact our whole defence does.

So, IMO. we need a complete overhaul of the defence. We need a better quality of defender and competition for all four positions, even if any incoming player starts of as back-up to players like Hanlon and Porto. Over the season, we need to ensure that we end the season with a much better defence that we've started it.

Hibs had a period under a Jack Ross last season in which we were not conceding many chances never mind goals but that was at the expense of less entertaining football. The 3-2 game at Motherwell kind of summed things up for me, it was far more of an open game than some would have wanted but personally I prefer it that way, I don’t want to watch results.
You are correct in my opinion that despite what system we play the defence has needed an overhaul since 2016, but buying St Johnstone defenders might not be the quick fix solution, they defend as a collective and with a style and formation that suits them.

[Smartie]

The signing of JDH and the emergence of Kyle Magennis makes the midfield look better than it has for some time.

It then shows up deficiencies elsewhere a bit more.

Squad depth has to be the main issue rather than any particular department. Even below our best I'd probably have fancied our first choice team to win that game last night.

That lack of depth though was horribly exposed last night.

The defence had an awful night but we weren't much better in the attacking sense.

Immediately prior to the sending off we looked like we were going to establish our dominance and go on and win the game but the first half wasn't great and after the sending off we capitulated, showed absolutely nothing in adversity.

McGinn had a poor game and has been culpable for a few goals and a few dodgy moments this season but I'm not at all convinced he's a bad player. Time is marching on for McGregor in particular but whilst they're still both effective players for now, Stevenson and Hanlon are now into their thirties and won't go on forever. Porteous and Doig you'd expect to leave within the next year or so, so irrespective of anyone's thoughts on last night, the defence looks like it is going to need a serious rebuild over the next few years. That's not reactionary to a bad result, it is a comment on the ages of the players who are currently playing in those positions - players who have served us with distinction over a long period of time.

[EdinburghHibern]

The signing of JDH and the emergence of Kyle Magennis makes the midfield look better than it has for some time.

It then shows up deficiencies elsewhere a bit more.

Squad depth has to be the main issue rather than any particular department. Even below our best I'd probably have fancied our first choice team to win that game last night.

That lack of depth though was horribly exposed last night.

The defence had an awful night but we weren't much better in the attacking sense.

Immediately prior to the sending off we looked like we were going to establish our dominance and go on and win the game but the first half wasn't great and after the sending off we capitulated, showed absolutely nothing in adversity.

McGinn had a poor game and has been culpable for a few goals and a few dodgy moments this season but I'm not at all convinced he's a bad player. Time is marching on for McGregor in particular but whilst they're still both effective players for now, Stevenson and Hanlon are now into their thirties and won't go on forever. Porteous and Doig you'd expect to leave within the next year or so, so irrespective of anyone's thoughts on last night, the defence looks like it is going to need a serious rebuild over the next few years. That's not reactionary to a bad result, it is a comment on the ages of the players who are currently playing in those positions - players who have served us with distinction over a long period of time.

Read somewhere that we have conceded 8 goals in all competitions so far this season. For me that tells a story.

[hibbysam]

We very rarely concede from teams playing through us. We’ve sorted that part out. We now need to get back to basics in other areas, stopping crosses, winning headers and taking pride in not conceding. We also dominate the ball in most games so don’t give a lot of chances away, so I would probably put most of it down to concentration, switching off when we aren’t having to defend for 15 minutes and still sleeping when an attack eventually comes.

[Brooster]

Centre half and right back urgently required.

[Bobo]

We have witnessed the same defensive unit deteriorate year on year since 2016 without any real improvements being made to it.

Gray, McGregor, Hanlon and Stevenson have all been prominent players since 2016 but have aged and are in need of replacement. There has been little fresh blood brought in to challenge their positions for the best part of 5 years with only McGinn and Cadden added, as squad players, IMO neither are automatic starters.

Doig's emergence has been a fortuitous bonus, the boy is quality, but the club are determined to cash in on him even though he is happy to stay at Easter Road. He is the type of player we should be holding on to with a view to building a new, younger defence for the foreseeable future.

Equally I feel we've needed 2 strikers for the last couple of seasons. We signed a very good one in Nisbet to compliment Doidge then Jack Ross insist on playing 1 up top and Nisbet is looking to leave within a year leaving us in the position of possibly needing to look for 3 new strikers to take us to where we need to be.

Ideally it's always best to add to the squad from a position of strength but our transfer dealings are always protracted because of our overwillingness to sell the family silver first. We seldom speculate to accumulate and often lose any initiative we may have had.

Mueller's signing looks like a positive step but by the time he arrives in January the squad will be, no doubt, decimated again after selling the majority of our better players.

It's no easy task building a decent squad but something our recruitment team need to address quicker because each transfer window is the same, laboured and drawn out with far too much speculation about the players we're likely to lose rather than the ones we're bringing in.

[easty]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.

[Smartie]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.

The facts would suggest they were good enough last season.

What about this season though?

We made a strong start defensively last season. This season it’s mid-august and we’ve already lost umpteen goals from crosses, particularly from our right side.

That’s worthy of a conversation, at least.

[EdinburghHibern]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.

Looking like one season too far for the ageing defence which is looking like poor planning by Mathie/Ross.

8 goals conceded from crosses so far this season in all comps.

[easty]

The facts would suggest they were good enough last season.

What about this season though?

The seasons barely underway. We’ve played 6, won 4, drew 1 and lost 1.

[Pretty Boy]

The biggest issue is a lack of depth.

At LB we are fine. At RB who do we turn to if McGinn get's injured? The often mentioned but rarely seen Cadden? That's not really a concrete plan at the moment. If McGinn got injured on Sunday we'd be scrambling about. I've said it already but if we want to be a group stage European team then we need to upgrade the starter never mind the back up.

Centrally Hanlon is still the pick of the bunch. Porteous can be brilliant but his inconsistency continues to be an issue. The former gets far more grief but he's still the best, most consistent CB at the club. I think last night shows why we need A N Other in in that position. We can't ever be in a situation in which we need to use Gogic as a CB for any extended period.

When everyone is fit and on form then the defence is fine. You need a bit of good fortune to go through a whole season like that though. We are only 6 games in and already have seen the issues caused by a lack of depth, it's arguably cost us our place in Europe.

[Smartie]

The seasons barely underway. We’ve played 6, won 4, drew 1 and lost 1.

Motherwell is probably our only notable victory there.

We’ve lost too many poor goals against poor and mediocre teams.

Unless that improves, we have no chance of matching our achievements of last season. Last year’s defensive stats were impressive. Early this season I think there is cause for concern.

[Weegreenman]

I watched Charlie Mulgrew Marshall the Dundee United defence against Rangers.
He was an absolute rock at the back for Utd.
A real leader for the players around him, constantly giving verbal instruction to his fellow defenders whilst battling like his life depended on not losing a goal.
That’s the type of player we are missing in our defence.

[MartinfaePorty]

I watched Charlie Mulgrew Marshall the Dundee United defence against Rangers.
He was an absolute rock at the back for Utd.
A real leader for the players around him, constantly giving verbal instruction to his fellow defenders whilst battling like his life depended on not losing a goal.
That’s the type of player we are missing in our defence.

I saw him in the previous game vs Aberdeen and he was terrible. Not getting at you, I'm just saying we may be too quick to judge our own players when they have a bad game and pick out the good ones from others.

[Since452]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.

:agree:

Honestly i shake my head reading some of the posts on here after a defeat. We've seen our defence deteriorate year on year since 2016? Nonsense. What was last season all about then?

[Hermit Crab]

Its goals conceded from crosses and headers that are concerning. 2 v Motherwell and 4 in total over the 2 legs Vs Rijeka. We need to stop crosses and win balls in the air in our box. Macey is massive and should be getting any high ball in his 6yd box.

We've gone from conceding zero headed goals from crosses last season to 6 in 3 games.

EDIT, one of Rijekas goals was a tap in from a cross but still poor defending.

[Andy74]

Looking like one season too far for the ageing defence which is looking like poor planning by Mathie/Ross.

8 goals conceded from crosses so far this season in all comps.

We’ve changed goalkeeper too of course, and the midfield and Doidge hasn’t played that often. All part of how a defence deals with balls in.

[Smartie]

:agree:

Honestly i shake my head reading some of the posts on here after a defeat. We've seen our defence deteriorate year on year since 2016? Nonsense. What was last season all about then?

Nobody can question that we defended well last season and I entirely disagree with any notion that our defence has been in decline since 2016. Some individuals maybe, but we've seen a natural progression and people moved on accordingly.

We can express concerns that we don't look like repeating the impressive defensive performance of last season this season though. That team was built on a mean defence. So far (certainly in the league games) it looks like we might have compromised on the stinginess at the back a bit in favour of a bit more freedom going forward. Many people will be happy with this.

FWIW I don't think we need radical personnel changes. I think one or two individuals need to start playing a bit better than they have been. I think we need to ask ourselves if our cover is good enough when we come up against the better sides we come up against.

I also think we need to question Jack Ross and the tactics a bit. Over the 2 legs we appeared to defend narrow, allowing them to get the ball out wide to a man in space. This is fine if it doesn't lead to crosses coming in, or if you focus on remaining solid in the middle, but we weren't and we lost goals as a result.

We've lost a winnable tie in frustrating circumstances and there is a bit of a post-mortem going on. Some of us aren't prepared to shut our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and point to last season when there is a new season well underway and we're showing signs of being more fragile than we were.

[Steven79]

We have witnessed the same defensive unit deteriorate year on year since 2016 without any real improvements being made to it.

Gray, McGregor, Hanlon and Stevenson have all been prominent players since 2016 but have aged and are in need of replacement. There has been little fresh blood brought in to challenge their positions for the best part of 5 years with only McGinn and Cadden added, as squad players, IMO neither are automatic starters.

Doig's emergence has been a fortuitous bonus, the boy is quality, but the club are determined to cash in on him even though he is happy to stay at Easter Road. He is the type of player we should be holding on to with a view to building a new, younger defence for the foreseeable future.

Equally I feel we've needed 2 strikers for the last couple of seasons. We signed a very good one in Nisbet to compliment Doidge then Jack Ross insist on playing 1 up top and Nisbet is looking to leave within a year leaving us in the position of possibly needing to look for 3 new strikers to take us to where we need to be.

Ideally it's always best to add to the squad from a position of strength but our transfer dealings are always protracted because of our overwillingness to sell the family silver first. We seldom speculate to accumulate and often lose any initiative we may have had.

Mueller's signing looks like a positive step but by the time he arrives in January the squad will be, no doubt, decimated again after selling the majority of our better players.

It's no easy task building a decent squad but something our recruitment team need to address quicker because each transfer window is the same, laboured and drawn out with far too much speculation about the players we're likely to lose rather than the ones we're bringing in.

McGinn has played pretty much every game since signing for us.

[Steven79]

I watched Charlie Mulgrew Marshall the Dundee United defence against Rangers.
He was an absolute rock at the back for Utd.
A real leader for the players around him, constantly giving verbal instruction to his fellow defenders whilst battling like his life depended on not losing a goal.
That’s the type of player we are missing in our defence.

And he's only slightly younger than Darren...

[Key West]

Macey has replaced Marciano and should be good enough for Hibs. McGinn is hit and miss within a game, Porteous is on a course of being self taught as he goes along, Hanlon has been dependable most of his career and to be honest hasn't had it easy playing in some poor defences, Doig preferred to Stevenson, another lad learning the game and possibly leaving, Stevenson see McGinn and Hanlon. Darren McGregor rarely plays, there's definitely room for improvement regardless of any stats.

[HFC 0-7]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.

You are correct but conceding few goals and chances doesn’t always point to your back 4 being great. Midfielders stop a lot of the chances, if you pivot the tactics in midfield more from defence to attack it exposes more weaknesses in the back 4. That’s what I feel is happening now., coupled with gogic not playing as well as last season.

[jacomo]

:agree:

Honestly i shake my head reading some of the posts on here after a defeat. We've seen our defence deteriorate year on year since 2016? Nonsense. What was last season all about then?


Our first choice back 4 last season was, generally, very good.

Daz stepped in admirably when Porto’s form fell away and arguably should have started in the cup final.

But we are very light on cover… I think Chris Cadden might well be the answer at right back but he hasn’t played there for us yet because we needed him in midfield. If Doig goes - surely still likely - we are much weaker.

[Bobo]

McGinn has played pretty much every game since signing for us.


He has due to our lack of depth and quality in defence.

The 2016 cup winning defenders, currently still in the squad are all over 30, all a yard slower each season and unfortunately more susceptible to injury and are likely to suffer from increasing recovery periods.

They've all served the club well but there should have been more competition / replacement players added to our defence long before now.

[MWHIBBIES]

First choice defence is fine, and contains only 1 player from 2016, who was excellent last season.

We need a right back, not because McGinn is rubbish. He's in a poor run of form and we need depth, and maybe better quality there anyway.

We also need a depth at centre back, a quality 3rd choice who can push Hanlon and Porteous.

[Onion]

Folk who will be most pleased about Hibs exit from Europe will be Doig's suitors. Unless Ron has a money tree somewhere, we need funds to bring in 2 or 3 quality defenders for the season ahead. We cannot run with that defence, and lucky to have found this out while the window is still open. Doig will be gone within the week.

[MWHIBBIES]

Folk who will be most pleased about Hibs exit from Europe will be Doig's suitors. Unless Ron has a money tree somewhere, we need funds to bring in 2 or 3 quality defenders for the season ahead. We cannot run with that defence, and lucky to have found this out while the window is still open. Doig will be gone within the week.

Nothing has changed with Doig.

We will already have money to bring players in. We've been bidding for them according to various reports.

[KWJ]

The biggest issue is a lack of depth.

At LB we are fine. At RB who do we turn to if McGinn get's injured? The often mentioned but rarely seen Cadden? That's not really a concrete plan at the moment. If McGinn got injured on Sunday we'd be scrambling about. I've said it already but if we want to be a group stage European team then we need to upgrade the starter never mind the back up.

Centrally Hanlon is still the pick of the bunch. Porteous can be brilliant but his inconsistency continues to be an issue. The former gets far more grief but he's still the best, most consistent CB at the club. I think last night shows why we need A N Other in in that position. We can't ever be in a situation in which we need to use Gogic as a CB for any extended period.

When everyone is fit and on form then the defence is fine. You need a bit of good fortune to go through a whole season like that though. We are only 6 games in and already have seen the issues caused by a lack of depth, it's arguably cost us our place in Europe.

:agree:

We were more ready than we have been for European football by not selling our best players. But we didn't have the depth. Gotta be ready for next year and in the meantime make sure we make it. Keep building Hibees.

[theonlywayisup]

Only Rangers and Celtc conceded fewer than us last season. We conceded only 35 goals in the league, 14 less than we conceded the season before, when we played only 30 games. The third best defence in the league in the season before last (only 30 games, was Aberdeen, who conceded 36…which is still more than we conceded last season).

Don’t let facts get in the way of a rant at the defence though.


:agree:

Honestly i shake my head reading some of the posts on here after a defeat. We've seen our defence deteriorate year on year since 2016? Nonsense. What was last season all about then?

Don't see anyone above having a rant or being overly critical of the defence. TBH, I think it's been pretty fair in that we need more options in defence and we've got an ageing defence that are starting to deteriorate. Yes, they perform well, especially against the poorer teams in the league.

However, we gift teams far too many easy goals. That has to be addressed if we want to be better. Also, we need more depth in team selection.

[theonlywayisup]

So how is everyone feeling about the defence now, post closure of the transfer window.

Whilst generally happy with the quality of our defence, I still would have liked to see one more in, just to protect us for injuries or loss of form. Fingers crossed that we've got good back-up in the youth set-up.

[theonlywayisup]

So three months on, it would appear we're going to start a game tomorrow with a defence of that is made up of any combination of:

Gogic
McGregor
Doig
Cadden
Stevenson

What a frightening thought!

Surely, defence now becomes top priority for whoever comes in to replace Ross. I know it looks bleak because we've two suspended and one probably out injured, but it was always going to happen. Surely, we must have some youngsters who can slot into the team.