Sectarianism - Just a "football thing"?

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.

[Kato]

No football matches taking place when the OO are "marching" around.

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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

No football matches taking place when the OO are "marching" around.

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Well, yeah. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to, same as I am not saying people shouldn't be allowed to sing certain songs at football matches, but OO marches definitely shouldn't be allowed to go past Catholic churches and areas of "significance" (didn't know how else to say that, I hope you understand what I mean). Free speech should be protected at all costs and throwing people into jail for dressing up like Andy ****ing Pandy or singing something potentially offensive doesn't sit right with me. Education definitely the way forward. I know someone's going to ask if I'd say the same thing about racism and the answer is no, racist chanting should result in a huge fine and some time behind bars, 99% of the sectarianism we hear at football is more of a political statement than anything else I'd say, especially from the soapdodgers. Worrying that people still grow up and decide to join these nutjobs like the OO or the Apprentice Boys, never understand it🤯

[Kato]

Well, yeah. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to, same as I am not saying people shouldn't be allowed to sing certain songs at football matches, but OO marches definitely shouldn't be allowed to go past Catholic churches and areas of "significance" (didn't know how else to say that, I hope you understand what I mean). Free speech should be protected at all costs and throwing people into jail for dressing up like Andy ****ing Pandy or singing something potentially offensive doesn't sit right with me. Education definitely the way forward. I know someone's going to ask if I'd say the same thing about racism and the answer is no, racist chanting should result in a huge fine and some time behind bars, 99% of the sectarianism we hear at football is more of a political statement than anything else I'd say, especially from the soapdodgers. Worrying that people still grow up and decide to join these nutjobs like the OO or the Apprentice Boys, never understand it[emoji2962]I read some wiki stuff on the OO and this stuck out a mile...

"He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil"

...unrecognizable from their actual behaviour and deportment.

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[Keith_M]

From a Rangers Fan I used to work with...


"I'm not a bigot... but I'll never give up my bigotry"


Make sense of that, if you can.

[Antifa Hibs]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.

Politicians want you to think that so they don't have to deal with it.

It's a society thing. Just so happens to manifest mostly with football supporters of one team.

[gbhibby]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.
No such thing as a ninety minute bigot. You do not switch on and off that behaviour. The bigotry is what keeps the old firm in business.
I can tell you that I have what is deemed an Irish Catholic name and my wife has been asked on numerous occasions if she is Catholic at her work.
Sectarianism is not just a football thing it is a poison which pervades Scottish Society.
As a nation we need to get rid of separate schools as a start.
If the bigots on the Rangers/orange side read the history books they might learn something

[Killiehibbie]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.


It is not. Full time seven day a week bigotry is still happening.

[Ozyhibby]

Politicians want you to think that so they don't have to deal with it.

It's a society thing. Just so happens to manifest mostly with football supporters of one team.

It would have died out years ago just like most other prejudices are dying out in Scotland but for football keeping this one alive. Where it thrives is in the west of Scotland where two teams help keep it alive. The rest of Scotland has carried on into the 21st century.


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[Kato]

It would have died out years ago just like most other prejudices are dying out in Scotland but for football keeping this one alive. Where it thrives is in the west of Scotland where two teams help keep it alive. The rest of Scotland has carried on into the 21st century.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOr if football didn't exist as a "vent" it might be more prevelant elsewhere. Rangers/Sevco might be the most visible and audible aspect of bigotry but dont underestimate the resilience of OO.

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[w pilton hibby]

It would have died out years ago just like most other prejudices are dying out in Scotland but for football keeping this one alive. Where it thrives is in the west of Scotland where two teams help keep it alive. The rest of Scotland has carried on into the 21st century.


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Sectarianism is increasing in Scotland but maybe not in the 'traditional' areas.

https://theconversation.com/islamophobia-report-reveals-scotland-not-quite-as-tolerant-as-it-would-like-to-think-164828

[Kato]

Sectarianism is increasing in Scotland but maybe not in the 'traditional' areas.

https://theconversation.com/islamophobia-report-reveals-scotland-not-quite-as-tolerant-as-it-would-like-to-think-164828"The report highlights that Muslim women are most likely to suffer from discrimination."

Cowards.

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[gbhibby]

Historically religion has been given a prominent role is society, heads of state having to speak to church before making decisions etc. It encourages tribal behaviour as people by nature like to be part of a herd. Unfortunately people use it as an excuse for unacceptable behaviour, and some of people who supposedly represent religious organisations need to take a long hard look at what they preach and how they behave themselves.

[Geo_1875]

"The report highlights that Muslim women are most likely to suffer from discrimination."

Cowards.

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Orangism is pro-Protestantism which historically meant anti-Catholic. They have had to come to terms with other non-Protestants living among us and those people of colour are an obvious target. They're not so vocally anti-Judaism but those people look like "us".

[Kato]

Orangism is pro-Protestantism which historically meant anti-Catholic. They have had to come to terms with other non-Protestants living among us and those people of colour are an obvious target. They're not so vocally anti-Judaism but those people look like "us".The OO has a strange relationship with Judaism in that they use so much Old Testament symbolism they sometimes conflate King Bill with OT figures, Old Melchizedek iirc.

The OT collection is about a covenant between a people, a god and a patch of land. A handy set of books for an invading people to allow them the sense of divine, manifest destiny, i.e. Ireland or America.

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[JeMeSouviens]

The OO has a strange relationship with Judaism in that they use so much Old Testament symbolism they sometimes conflate King Bill with OT figures, Old Melchizedek iirc.

The OT collection is about a covenant between a people, a god and a patch of land. A handy set of books for an invading people to allow them the sense of divine, manifest destiny, i.e. Ireland or America.

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Afrikaner Boers have the same thing going on as well. A trek to the Promised Land for God's Chosen People.

[Moulin Yarns]

Afrikaner Boers have the same thing going on as well. A trek to the Promised Land for God's Chosen People.

South Africans aren't all boers, I know a couple of interesting ones 😉

[Antifa Hibs]

It would have died out years ago just like most other prejudices are dying out in Scotland but for football keeping this one alive. Where it thrives is in the west of Scotland where two teams help keep it alive. The rest of Scotland has carried on into the 21st century.


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A gay guy got jumped by 3 men in Edinburgh a fortnight ago did he not? For.... being gay?

A Wallyford player got racially abused and monkey noises made at him a few weeks back.

"An Edinburgh PhD student is alleged to have racially abused a Muslim woman on Facebook after refusing to sell her a basket on the grounds of her race and religion"

We need to stop pretending Scotland doesn't have a racism/discrimination/prejudice issue. And that its just Rangers and Celtic causing all the grief. It's ridiculous

[MKHIBEE]

From a Rangers Fan I used to work with...


"I'm not a bigot... but I'll never give up my bigotry"


Make sense of that, if you can.
I worked with a Rangers fan who would proudly proclaim that “at least I’m bigoted the right way”.

[Moulin Yarns]

Listen, you get as many parades as you want in July, now **** off back to Belfast and Londonderry


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-58203584

[Lendo]

A gay guy got jumped by 3 men in Edinburgh a fortnight ago did he not? For.... being gay?

A Wallyford player got racially abused and monkey noises made at him a few weeks back.

"An Edinburgh PhD student is alleged to have racially abused a Muslim woman on Facebook after refusing to sell her a basket on the grounds of her race and religion"

We need to stop pretending Scotland doesn't have a racism/discrimination/prejudice issue. And that its just Rangers and Celtic causing all the grief. It's ridiculous

My girlfriend was walking back along London Road this morning at 1am and saw six guys come out of nowhere and jump two male students who were walking along holding hands minding their own business.

There does seem to be an increase in homophobic attacks of late.

[Pretty Boy]

I've never accepted the idea of a '90 minute bigot'. If you shout something racist/homophobic/sectarian at the football then it's in you to do it elsewhere too.

I've also rarely encountered a bigot who has a singular target either. In my experience someone who is racist also has a myriad of other prejudices as well.

[Colr]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.

Don’t think so.

I worked in Weegiestan for nearly a decade and found professionally qualified Rangers bigots didn’t restrict themselves to 90minutes at all.

Didn’t seem to be as much of an issue with the Celtic followers.

[Smartie]

Orangism is pro-Protestantism which historically meant anti-Catholic. They have had to come to terms with other non-Protestants living among us and those people of colour are an obvious target. They're not so vocally anti-Judaism but those people look like "us".

See this pro-protestantism being anti-catholic - is that actually the case?

My other half is from quite a religious family. They're typical, Church of Scotland small town Scots. The Kirk is a big part of the village and her Dad is a church elder.

I've never heard any of them utter anything remotely anti-catholic and they despair as much about knuckle dragging nonsense you get from Sevconians as any sensible person would.

They don't really ever call themselves "protestants" but I would regularly hear them call themselves "Christians".

As I am someone who was largely kept away from religion - what is it all about?

[Pretty Boy]

See this pro-protestantism being anti-catholic - is that actually the case?

My other half is from quite a religious family. They're typical, Church of Scotland small town Scots. The Kirk is a big part of the village and her Dad is a church elder.

I've never heard any of them utter anything remotely anti-catholic and they despair as much about knuckle dragging nonsense you get from Sevconians as any sensible person would.

They don't really ever call themselves "protestants" but I would regularly hear them call themselves "Christians".

As I am someone who was largely kept away from religion - what is it all about?

I think both the established Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church have taken huge strides to work together in the last few decades. It takes many forms but I would suggest most local Churches of various denominations now work together socially, charitably and indeed hold regular joint services, particularly during Holy Week. There is certainly plenty of evidence of that in Edinburgh for those who want to find it.

I'd argue the issue of Orangesim is a different matter. The vast majority of Protestants in Scotland aren't members of the Orange Order and I'd suspect most of them aren't that keen on them as an organisation either. Further it should be considered the OO don't just disapprove of Catholics, they aren't mad about the the 'wrong' type of Protestant either.

I think it's fair to say that many people who are pro Protestant aren't anti Catholic. As I said above the CoS has massively softened it's tone in recent decades and large parts of the Westminster Confession of Faith that are explicitly anti Catholic have been quietly pushed into the background. The Episcopalian Church in Scotland is about as close to Catholic as you can get without being Catholic. There is arguably more of an emphasis on the 'evils of Popery' among wee frees and the like but even then I'm not sure it's outright hostility. Certainly my experience of a Free Church Minister was only positive as he opened his Church for me to look around and made no negative comment whatsoever when I nervously told him I was a Catholic.

I'd suggest that when these discussions arise you really have to separate Orangeism from Protestantism because the former is wholly unreflective of the latter.

[Crunchie]

I've never accepted the idea of a '90 minute bigot'. If you shout something racist/homophobic/sectarian at the football then it's in you to do it elsewhere too.

I've also rarely encountered a bigot who has a singular target either. In my experience someone who is racist also has a myriad of other prejudices as well.
I've got to disagree there PB, back in the day late 70s right through to the mid 80s there were a group of us sung some appalling IRA songs just to wind up the hun and and jambo fans (you know who you are) and we never gave that another thought once the match was over.
I don't think there's a fan out there over the age of 50 who won't have joined in singing about someones sexual orientation at one time or another, that in no way makes them homophobic either.
I can't ever recall racist chants as part of our songbook though.

[Killiehibbie]

I've got to disagree there PB, back in the day late 70s right through to the mid 80s there were a group of us sung some appalling IRA songs just to wind up the hun and and jambo fans (you know who you are) and we never gave that another thought once the match was over.
I don't think there's a fan out there over the age of 50 who won't have joined in singing about someones sexual orientation at one time or another, that in no way makes them homophobic either.
I can't ever recall racist chants as part of our songbook though.

The Edinburgh Song was the only racist one that I remember and it was only ever sung by a few people at a time.

[Crunchie]

The Edinburgh Song was the only racist one that I remember and it was only ever sung by a few people at a time.
Forgot about that one :aok: and not many joined in as you say. I don't think anyone sang that with any conviction and petered out within seconds.

[Ozyhibby]

Forgot about that one :aok: and not many joined in as you say. I don't think anyone sang that with any conviction and petered out within seconds.

Can’t ever remember it being sung at a game? Only on less classy buses or in pubs. Last time I heard it was in Ukraine in the hotel and it was shouted down by the more sensible Hibbies.


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[Smartie]

Some of the Paul Hartley songs have gone from being belted out by a full stadium to being unacceptable in just a few short years.

[Crunchie]

Can’t ever remember it being sung at a game? Only on less classy buses or in pubs. Last time I heard it was in Ukraine in the hotel and it was shouted down by the more sensible Hibbies.


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I think I'm getting the Sunny Leith song mixed up with this Edinburgh song which I'm not sure I know. Is this a relatively new song?

[Killiehibbie]

I think I'm getting the Sunny Leith song mixed up with this Edinburgh song which I'm not sure I know. Is this a relatively new song?

80's into the 90's certain sections of society detract from a wonderful city

[Pretty Boy]

I was a bit surpised that after the racism of a group of Rangers fans at the weekend 2 former Rangers players were given a platform to discuss the situation and deflect. Charlie Adam tried to equate racism to a song about his sister (said song is distasteful at best and in no way am I condoning it).

The 2nd player was Kirk Broadfoot. I thought that was an odd choice because I had it in my head he had been in bother for racism or similar in the past. As it turns out I was correct, he was banned for 10 games for a sectarian verbal assault against James McLean. He still protests his innocence of course but is he really the best person to have discussing this kind of behaviour with something like that against his character? More interesting though is the article below that details how the incident was reported in Scotland and England. These newspapers are in the same ownership yet took very different editorial decisions when it came to reporting sectarianism in football. The Daily Record article plays down the sectarian element to Broadfoots behaviour, indeed people may even have felt he was hard done being banned for a bit of verbals. Makes you think.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/jul/24/daily-record-sanitises-story-of-player-banned-for-sectarian-tirade

[Peevemor]

Asking as had a conversation with someone recently about this and really wasn't sure what I think about it... Is sectarianism in 21st century Scotland merely something that happens at football matches involving a tiny minority of our professional clubs, or is it a much wider problem that needs addressing? Are "90 minute bigots" a real phenomenon, or an excuse to spew hatred and then return to normal life as if nothing happened? I'm torn, but can't help feel that dismissing it as simply a "football thing" is an inherently classist position for the traditionally egg chasing, prosecco guzzling sections of society.The first Mrs Peeve was from the wild west (Lothian).

My ex father-in-law was a mega hun and successful businessman. Whenever he was going through job applications, he automatically dismissed those who had "suspect" names or schooling, ie. anything too micky and you were out.

He was however very good to me and I had a great relationship with him despite my very Irish surname and half RC background.

My ex mother-in-law's parents were from Magherafelt and they were very much a FTP family. She however was a lovely woman who didn't bother with that stuff and I got on great with her even after divorcing her daughter. In saying that, one of her brothers and his sons were really into the flute band thing and I'd say that they suffered me at best.

That's now almost 25 years since I've had much to do with them, but sectarianism definitely existed then.

[Kato]

I was a bit surpised that after the racism of a group of Rangers fans at the weekend 2 former Rangers players were given a platform to discuss the situation and deflect. Adam tried to equate racism to a song about his sister (said song is distasteful at best and in no way am I condoning it).

The 2nd player was Kirk Broadfoot. I thought that was an odd choice because I had it in my head he had been in bother for racism or similar in the past. As it turns out I was correct, he was banned for 10 games for a sectarian verbal assault against James McLean. He still protests his innocence of course but is he really the best person to have discussing this kind of behaviour with something like that against his character? More interesting though is the article below that details how the incident was reported in Scotland and England. These newspapers are in the same ownership yet took very different editorial decisions when it came to reporting sectarianism in football. Someone reading the Daily Record article plays down the sectarian element to Broadfoots behaviour, indeed people may even have felt he was hard done being banned for a bit of verbals. Makes you think.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/jul/24/daily-record-sanitises-story-of-player-banned-for-sectarian-tirade


Great article. Some people don't look beyond their nose when reading and some claim "bias" doesn't exist but there is an example of it right there. The same piece of news from the same publishers producing tailor-made copy depending on editorial stance.

The Daily Record's being "don't upset the bears".

[Killiehibbie]

I was a bit surpised that after the racism of a group of Rangers fans at the weekend 2 former Rangers players were given a platform to discuss the situation and deflect. Charlie Adam tried to equate racism to a song about his sister (said song is distasteful at best and in no way am I condoning it).

The 2nd player was Kirk Broadfoot. I thought that was an odd choice because I had it in my head he had been in bother for racism or similar in the past. As it turns out I was correct, he was banned for 10 games for a sectarian verbal assault against James McLean. He still protests his innocence of course but is he really the best person to have discussing this kind of behaviour with something like that against his character? More interesting though is the article below that details how the incident was reported in Scotland and England. These newspapers are in the same ownership yet took very different editorial decisions when it came to reporting sectarianism in football. The Daily Record article plays down the sectarian element to Broadfoots behaviour, indeed people may even have felt he was hard done being banned for a bit of verbals. Makes you think.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/jul/24/daily-record-sanitises-story-of-player-banned-for-sectarian-tirade

Broadfoot will be going on MasterChef next.