Racism in Scotland

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1421965309741785089?s=21

This is a shocking story that I would have struggled to believe possible these days.


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[Danderhall Hibs]

That’s incredible.

[weecounty hibby]

Sadly if you read some of the comments there are those who think what he has done is worse than anything the nursery have done. He did exactly what I would have done and ask one if my white pals to do the same to see how their application went

[Future17]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1421965309741785089?s=21

This is a shocking story that I would have struggled to believe possible these days.


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Jeezo. That's heart-breaking and rage-inducing at the same time.

[Pretty Boy]

I always laugh when people try to claim racism isn't an issue in Scotland. 'We're all jock Tamsons bairns' being the usual moronic line uttered.

Anyone who has their ears open in a pub, football stadium etc etc knows fine well that casual racism exists and as exemplified by Hamza Yusuf above not so casual racism rears it's head from time to time as well.

[JeMeSouviens]

Depressing stuff.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Absolutely, can't speak for institutional racism but amongst white, working class Scots, racism is rife in the locker room "banter"

[Skol]

That is a sad indictment of what goes on and whilst it surprises me, I guess it shouldnt.

I am assuming Yousaf should be able to raise this particular instance through appropriate official channels for investigation but there does need to be a wider examination of the way these work. I am aware for example that CVs for recruiting managers are being anonymised to ensure there is no unconscious bias at that first stage of the recruitment process.

[CMurdoch]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1421965309741785089?s=21

This is a shocking story that I would have struggled to believe possible these days.


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After reading all the twitter posts my mouth was wide open.
That is unbelievable and horrendous in equal measure.
If it is happening with private sector nursery applications i have to accept it's happening with private sector job applications.
The fact it happened with a nursery place is in a way more shocking. There is no explanation for it other than blatant racism.

[WeeRussell]

Sadly if you read some of the comments there are those who think what he has done is worse than anything the nursery have done. He did exactly what I would have done and ask one if my white pals to do the same to see how their application went

Exactly. A quick scan through some of the moronic “I’m not racist but (or I’m not racist you are)” type comments remind me why I’m better off without Twitter.

[speedy_gonzales]

On the face of it, it's clear discrimination if the only difference in the many applications was the name.
Many nurseries have waiting lists due to staff shortages just now, and at first I wondered if the requests were for the same times/days but it looks like the Daily Records applications were indeed exactly the same with the exception of the "white" sounding and "Muslim" sounding name (as reported).
There's no justification for this blatant discrimination, but after reading various tweets & posts on this particular story, there's an intimation the original application was refused as Nadia El-Nakla was known by the nursery owner, Usha Fowdar, through her work with MSP Shona Robison.
Ignoring any potential political or sectarian discrimination, if this is racial discrimination, then the nursery/owner should be dealt with firmly by the authorities, just as I hope any individual, group or organisation would be.

[Skol]

I assumed initially these were applications for local authority (pre school) nurseries, but assume from reading here its private nurseries which changes my thinking on any control Yousaf may have on raising this.

It is shocking though that anyone can apply this kind of policy

[Lendo]

The amount of abusive replies from (we are the) people with Union Flags and 55 in their profile pic is also sadly entirely predictable.

[Hibrandenburg]

I always laugh when people try to claim racism isn't an issue in Scotland. 'We're all jock Tamsons bairns' being the usual moronic line uttered.

Anyone who has their ears open in a pub, football stadium etc etc knows fine well that casual racism exists and as exemplified by Hamza Yusuf above not so casual racism rears it's head from time to time as well.

We are all Jock Tamson's bairns, there's nothing wrong with that sentiment but I don't think I've ever met anyone who believes there's no racism in Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

I read on sky news two owner's are Asian also could still be racist I suppose

[Ozyhibby]

I read on sky news two owner's are Asian also could still be racist I suppose

Or the owners are not in charge of admissions?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Or the owners are not in charge of admissions?


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Who knows, my step sister is a nursery manager and they would usually always have a say. Horrible if there is discrimination. Because even if their dad is utterly useless at his job ,discrimination is disgusting especially towards children

[Ozyhibby]

Who knows, my step sister is a nursery manager and they would usually always have a say. Horrible if there is discrimination. Because even if their dad is utterly useless at his job ,discrimination is disgusting especially towards children

Why would you even mention the dads job?


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[Colr]

Recommend Akela’s book ‘Natives’ on racism. It’s mostly about his experience in London but his mum’s Scottish so he discusses Scotland as well.

Good insight.

[neil7908]

The incident is horrible enough. Equally scary though is the number of people people on Twitter, news sites etc defending the nursery, slagging him, indulging in whataboutery etc.

They are of course the people who tell us racism isn't an issue and it's white people being persecuted 🙄

[Stairway 2 7]

Why would you even mention the dads job?


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Because in my last job every time I dealt with him he was a prick to myself and others. Same with salmond both rude and arrogant to staff, not political as swinney and all other snp staff were nice and sturgeon was really lovely.

If he was white I wouldn't mind him having difficulty getting a nursery. It's a shock to the system that this can happen in Scotland, it must happen so much perhaps African names ect too

[calumhibee1]

Would people say racism is as big an issue here as it is in England/USA/parts of Europe?

Ive always thought in my head that it’s not as bad in Scotland as most other places. That’s not to say it’s not bad, that’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but Ive always felt like it’s not as bad. I say that as a white person though so I’m fully happy to accept that my viewpoint may be completely incorrect due to the fact I’m not subjected to it.

[beensaidbefore]

Is it racism though? If both parties are form South Asian heritage I don't understand how that can be racist.

[JeMeSouviens]

Would people say racism is as big an issue here as it is in England/USA/parts of Europe?

Ive always thought in my head that it’s not as bad in Scotland as most other places. That’s not to say it’s not bad, that’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but Ive always felt like it’s not as bad. I say that as a white person though so I’m fully happy to accept that my viewpoint may be completely incorrect due to the fact I’m not subjected to it.

I think there are probably at least 3 levels of racism:

1. those who think that their ethnic group are intrinsically superior to others
2. those who think their ethnic group has prior claim and therefore more rights because they've been around a place longer
3. those who refuse to accept that anything needs to happen to address the disadvantages a group may face because of historically large amounts of 1 and 2

I think there are not that many of (1) in Scotland (and they are more likely to be anti-Catholic bigots than anti-people of colour racists). There are more of (2) and much more of (3).

I think there's less racism in Scotland because there's less people of non-white races, tbh. People are people, and tend to behave in much the same ways wherever they are. Circumstances obviously shape that.

[Peevemor]

Is it racism though? If both parties are form South Asian heritage I don't understand how that can be racist.

We don't know who made the decision to refuse the applications - whether it was the owner or an employee.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is it racism though? If both parties are form South Asian heritage I don't understand how that can be racist.

I think it's yet to be established how much, if any, of the input to the decisions on offering places came from the owner and how much of it was down to the management in the nursery.

[Mon Dieu4]

Is it racism though? If both parties are form South Asian heritage I don't understand how that can be racist.

As someone who grew up in and stays in Leith I have many Sikh pals and a few of Pakistani heritage and trust me when I say they can be racist as well

[Hibrandenburg]

Would people say racism is as big an issue here as it is in England/USA/parts of Europe?

Ive always thought in my head that it’s not as bad in Scotland as most other places. That’s not to say it’s not bad, that’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but Ive always felt like it’s not as bad. I say that as a white person though so I’m fully happy to accept that my viewpoint may be completely incorrect due to the fact I’m not subjected to it.

We've definitely got a racist problem, there's no country in the world that doesn't. However I don't think our society is in danger of becoming a racist one as any party standing on racist policies wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of being elected. Sectarianism, now that's a different story.

[beensaidbefore]

We don't know who made the decision to refuse the applications - whether it was the owner or an employee.


On radio2 now

[beensaidbefore]

We don't know who made the decision to refuse the applications - whether it was the owner or an employee.


On radio 2 now. Hopefully sheds some light

[beensaidbefore]

As someone who grew up in and stays in Leith I have many Sikh pals and a few of Pakistani heritage and trust me when I say they can be racist as well


I sure believe that, but is it racist to insult people of your own race/ethnicity? Thats the bit confusing me.

[JeMeSouviens]

I sure believe that, but is it racist to insult people of your own race/ethnicity? Thats the bit confusing me.

I doubt a Hindu Mauritian would consider themselves to be the same ethnicity as a Pakistani Muslim.

[beensaidbefore]

I think it's yet to be established how much, if any, of the input to the decisions on offering places came from the owner and how much of it was down to the management in the nursery.

yes. And I suppose what entry criteria they have to work to? Do they have to be seen to be accepting x from x community on order to meet some funding promise etc.

[beensaidbefore]

I doubt a Hindu Mauritian would consider themselves to be the same ethnicity as a Pakistani Muslim.


Is that where they are from?

[Peevemor]

I sure believe that, but is it racist to insult people of your own race/ethnicity? Thats the bit confusing me.

If somebody is refused access to something because of their race then that's racism, even if the person that refused them is of the same race.

[calumhibee1]

If somebody is refused access to something because of their race then that's racism, even if the person that refused them is of the same race.

Yup. :agree:

[beensaidbefore]

If somebody is refused access to something because of their race then that's racism, even if the person that refused them is of the same race.


I would agree with that. Im not sure that rule is always being applied to all situations, which is why I am confused.

If it's only certain sections of society that benefit/are effected then that stance itself is discriminatory.

[Stairway 2 7]

I asked my sister in law again just now. She said she's worked in 3 situations, where she books kids herself, an area manager deals with that and owners. I told her that wasn't much help. What she did say is someone's head will roll. If it was staff member they will publicly be under the bus soon and also facing proceedings with sssc.

She said curiously South Asians in her opinion were by far the easiest to have though. Generally just let you get on with it. British were 50/50 and white Europeans Dutch ect were known to be the worst, angry if you said their kid was bad and constantly challenging you.

[Pretty Boy]

I deal with a lot of Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis through my work and the racism (if that's the right term) between different nationalities and even regions on the subcontinent is something to behold.

The 'Indian' restaurant scene in Edinburgh is dominated by the latter 2 and they hate getting their fellow diaspora as customers. There is one restaurant owner in particular who is something else. I won't name his restaurant but some of his Tripadvisor replies are quite shocking. 'Typical Desi', 'demanding desis' are 2 of his favourites but he'll openly refer to people as 'bongs', 'dal khors' and most shockingly (to my ears) he uses the terms 'momos' and 'chinks' when referring to people from north east India (apparently this is because it is the closest part of India to China).

[Since90+2]

I deal with a lot of Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis through my work and the racism (if that's the right term) between different nationalities and even regions on the subcontinent is something to behold.

The 'Indian' restaurant scene in Edinburgh is dominated by the latter 2 and they hate getting their fellow diaspora as customers. There is one restaurant owner in particular who is something else. I won't name his restaurant but some of his Tripadvisor replies are quite shocking. 'Typical Desi', 'demanding desis' are 2 of his favourites but he'll openly refer to people as 'bongs', 'dal khors' and most shockingly (to my ears) he uses the terms 'momos' and 'chinks' when referring to people from north east India (apparently this is because it is the closest part of India to China).

What does the word Desi mean?

[Pretty Boy]

What does the word Desi mean?

I believe it's a generic term for Indian, Pakistani etc people who live abroad.

I don't think in itself it's an offensive term but it depends on context of course.

[Killiehibbie]

I hear loads of racist comments every day and even more of a sectarian nature.
People from the Indian sub-continent are very scathing towards their old neighbours of different religions.

[matty_f]

It’s hard to conclude that is anything other than racism when you see it laid out the way it has.

It’s really disturbing that this is still happening in Scotland, and I hope that a thorough investigation is undertaken and appropriate action taken where necessary.

[calumhibee1]

I hear loads of racist comments every day and even more of a sectarian nature.
People from the Indian sub-continent are very scathing towards their old neighbours of different religions.

Where do you hear these comments? Maybe that’s why I had to ask the question I asked earlier in the thread but I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say something racist. The fact people hear loads of racist comments every day shocks me.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you white? Or do you hear it every day because they’re aimed at you?

[wookie70]

I always laugh when people try to claim racism isn't an issue in Scotland. 'We're all jock Tamsons bairns' being the usual moronic line uttered.

Anyone who has their ears open in a pub, football stadium etc etc knows fine well that casual racism exists and as exemplified by Hamza Yusuf above not so casual racism rears it's head from time to time as well.

I think there are many who want us to be a nation where we are all Jock Tamson's bairns. It is certainly a phrase I use to describe what I want an Independent Scotland to be. It means to me that if you think you are Scottish you are and that is exactly the type of nation I want to live in. Thinking we are already there is moronic.

Racism is more hidden in Scotland than down south partly because of the demographic and how brilliantly many communities have integrated. Sectarianism is also another place where racist can go and be more hateful but with less scrutiny. As you say though it is fairly easy to hear some casual racism if you put yourself in settings where people feel comfortable to say what they think.

I hope those that denied the applications are properly punished and I also hope those who replied on Twitter with similar stories actually try and do something about it.

[matty_f]

Where do you hear these comments? Maybe that’s why I had to ask the question I asked earlier in the thread but I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say something racist. The fact people hear loads of racist comments every day shocks me.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you white? Or do you hear it every day because they’re aimed at you?
UKIP/Brexit emboldened and legitimised a lot of racists in Britain. Used to be that what are thinly disguised far-right political groups were massively marginalised and rarely given a credible voice, but ***** like Farage were given airtime that was hugely out of proportion to his political standing (initially) and since that point the country (uk) has taken several strides backwards in the fight against racism.

I have a colleague who told me an anecdote about a conversation with his mum, who was venting about immigrants. He told her she was being racist and she said “well, yes, but i am racist I suppose “, with no embarrassment or shame about it.

That’s definitely a shift in attitude, people wouldn’t want to be called racist a while back but they’re not arsed about it now.

We have an openly racist prime minister. He says he’s not, but then he speaks and you know he is.

Edit - probably less relevant to Scotland but there is an element of the above that rings true here as well.

[Killiehibbie]

Where do you hear these comments? Maybe that’s why I had to ask the question I asked earlier in the thread but I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say something racist. The fact people hear loads of racist comments every day shocks me.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you white? Or do you hear it every day because they’re aimed at you?

Out and about and in the workplace. Deepest, darkest Ayrshire really is the land that time forgot. Some think it's funny, some hate anybody not a white protestant and even the Celtic fans join in with the racist stuff.
I'm often called a dirty Fenian by the thick *****. I'm a white atheist.

[calumhibee1]

Out and about and in the workplace. Deepest, darkest Ayrshire really is the land that time forgot. Some think it's funny, some hate anybody not a white protestant and even the Celtic fans join in with the racist stuff.
I'm often called a dirty Fenian by the thick *****. I'm a white atheist.

Jesus, that’s grim.

[Geo_1875]

Because in my last job every time I dealt with him he was a prick to myself and others. Same with salmond both rude and arrogant to staff, not political as swinney and all other snp staff were nice and sturgeon was really lovely.

If he was white I wouldn't mind him having difficulty getting a nursery. It's a shock to the system that this can happen in Scotland, it must happen so much perhaps African names ect too

Worked under Salmond and didn't find him rude or arrogant. He was demanding and didn't suffer fools gladly. Maybe it was you.

[Smartie]

Out and about and in the workplace. Deepest, darkest Ayrshire really is the land that time forgot. Some think it's funny, some hate anybody not a white protestant and even the Celtic fans join in with the racist stuff.
I'm often called a dirty Fenian by the thick *****. I'm a white atheist.

Scotland has some horrendous little hotspots where nonsense like this thrives. I won't name them as I'll no doubt offend folk but you do always find that the idiots and the proper "salt of the Earth" folk live side by side, and about 90% of my family are from places like these.

You can probably measure the ignorance levels of an area by the number of buses that head off to Ibrox every weekend.

Scotland, in my experience is getting better every year on the racism front. My football spectating life started around the time folk were chucking bananas at Mark Walters and it would be wrong not to acknowledge how far we've come from there.

Asian friends of mine who live in Scotland would tell me that they find Scotland as good a place, as welcoming a place, and as low on overt racism as anywhere.

They would also say though that by no means is it free of racism and that it is actually pretty bad for incipient racism. I would agree with this, knowing the sorts of silent recruitment strategies that the white, male, very respectable establishment figures who hold similar positions to me have - and it is a bit different to their written equal opportunities policies.

The East of Scotland is pretty bad for that sort of thing imo. There are some pretty awful beliefs held by people who in my opinion should know an awful lot better in this day and age.

Folk I went to uni with would tell me that they're far more likely to get abuse down South. They'd also say though that they're more likely to get a job down South, which leaves me feeling very uneasy indeed.

[Stairway 2 7]

Worked under Salmond and didn't find him rude or arrogant. He was demanding and didn't suffer fools gladly. Maybe it was you.

No to me personally but I'm a foot taller than him so he was nice and I don't suffer fanny's or jambos lightly, heard loads say he was a creepy bully. Wasn't my side of work but the function staff said ,if it was his function they would cry as they were on well past the advertised stopping time, without thanks.
One bonus he'd only accept Veuve Clicquot champagne not prosseco by the case, thanks tax payer everyone I knew had many of the leftovers, terrible.

As I say sturgeon was the opposite kind and respectful

[Since90+2]

No to me personally but I'm a foot taller than him so he was nice and I don't suffer fanny's or jambos lightly, heard loads say he was a creepy bully. Wasn't my side of work but the function staff said ,if it was his function they would cry as they were on well past the advertised stopping time, without thanks.
One bonus he'd only accept Veuve Clicquot champagne not prosseco by the case, thanks tax payer everyone I knew had many of the leftovers, terrible.

As I say sturgeon was the opposite kind and respectful

The one time I met Sturgeon in the workplace she was the same, very personable and kind.

NS is a very capable policitian, perhaps the best in the UK but she has a massive issue as she is really the only talent that the SNP have. Due to the lack of talent in the party she needs to front up all the time and this leads to people thinking she loves the limelight and "is always telling us what to do". You only have to look at John Swinney's performance this week to see why she always leads from the front.

Kate Forbes is maybe one who can start to lead a bit more and take some of the pressure off NS.

[Pretty Boy]

The one time I met Sturgeon in the workplace she was the same, very personable and kind.

NS is a very capable policitian, perhaps the best in the UK but she has a massive issue as she is really the only talent that the SNP have. Due to the lack of talent in the party she needs to front up all the time and this leads to people thinking she loves the limelight and "is always telling us what to do". You only have to look at John Swinney's performance this week to see why she always leads from the front.

Kate Forbes is maybe one who can start to lead a bit more and take some of the pressure off NS.

I can't see how she can ever emerge as a leader of the SNP without openly declaring her position on all manner of social issues. In a party that wishes to paint itself as progressive and insists it wants to build Scotland in that image then those views are important.

She's a practicisng member of a church that believe in the literality of the Bible. A church with a comparable theology to that which some on here mock DUP politicians for belonging to. I have no issue with her Christian faith, I'm a Christian. However if her religious views impact her decision making on issues surrounding abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, assisted dying, Catholic education and so on then it becomes a tricky situation. It's entirely possible she doesn't adhere to every teaching of the church she belongs to, I very much fall into the 'cafeteria Catholic' bracket myself. However it's something that would need clarified. When you are promoted to a position in which decisions you make directly influence the lives and rights of others you lose your own right to keeping your views that influence such decision making private.

[hibsbollah]

I can't see how she can ever emerge as a leader of the SNP without openly declaring her position on all manner of social issues. In a party that wishes to paint itself as progressive and insists it wants to build Scotland in that image then those views are important.

She's a practicisng member of a church that believe in the literality of the Bible. A church with a comparable theology to that which some on here mock DUP politicians for belonging to. I have no issue with her Christian faith, I'm a Christian. However if her religious views impact her decision making on issues surrounding abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, assisted dying, Catholic education and so on then it becomes a tricky situation. It's entirely possible she doesn't adhere to every teaching of the church she belongs to, I very much fall into the 'cafeteria Catholic' bracket myself. However it's something that would need clarified. When you are promoted to a position in which decisions you make directly influence the lives and rights of others you lose your own right to keeping your views that influence such decision making private.

I heard an interview with her about it recorded a few years ago. She answered it quite well, she described her membership of the wee frees as being linked more to her local community, rather than a conformist belief in every aspect of the church’s teaching. If you grow up in that community with your dad as a Christian charity worker abroad, there’s a good chance you’re going to choose to be part of that church too. It’s just genealogical accident.

[JeMeSouviens]

I can't see how she can ever emerge as a leader of the SNP without openly declaring her position on all manner of social issues. In a party that wishes to paint itself as progressive and insists it wants to build Scotland in that image then those views are important.

She's a practicisng member of a church that believe in the literality of the Bible. A church with a comparable theology to that which some on here mock DUP politicians for belonging to. I have no issue with her Christian faith, I'm a Christian. However if her religious views impact her decision making on issues surrounding abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, assisted dying, Catholic education and so on then it becomes a tricky situation. It's entirely possible she doesn't adhere to every teaching of the church she belongs to, I very much fall into the 'cafeteria Catholic' bracket myself. However it's something that would need clarified. When you are promoted to a position in which decisions you make directly influence the lives and rights of others you lose your own right to keeping your views that influence such decision making private.

:agree:

You only have to look at the mess Tim Farron got himself in. If she takes the Wee Free position (essentially the CoS position with about a 30 year delay) on social issues she is going to find it completely incompatible with leading the SNP and/or Scotgov.

[speedy_gonzales]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-58147135

Brinkmanship, veiled threats or fair play?
Whilst, as I've said earlier, racism needs to be called out, I did think Humza would wait until the Care Inspectorate done their investigation.
This threat of legal action if his terms aren't met could interrupt the service and care provided to the current nursery roll,,,,