Separating the art from the artist

[He's here!]

While it might be a stretch to describe Leigh Griffiths as an artist, in the wake of the recent allegations made against him how do we now feel about his time at Hibs? Are moments like this somehow less possible to enjoy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-_MPKiCiA

How about the litany of well-kent and often much-loved names who have seen their careers/reputations impacted or destroyed by (in extreme cases) criminal behaviour, repellent behaviour or sometimes just unproven allegations? Off the top of my head I'm thinking Michael Jackson, Kevin Spacey, Gary Glitter, Woody Allen, Morrissey, Louis CK, Bill Cosby, Johnny Depp...there are countless others. Can we reconcile the pleasure their work gives us with moral disgust?

[Chorley Hibee]

It's an interesting discussion.

As a classical music fan, I've always been in awe of the works of Wagner.

Let's just say his background is chequered.

No comment on who his biggest fan was either.

[CropleyWasGod]

"Love the art, don't have to love the artist" is a mantra I've lived by for a long time.

The artistic environment has long lent itself to bad behaviour, from Caravaggio to Kevin Spacey. And, no doubt, we've had our fair share of pricks playing for us while we worshipped them.

The most recent time I felt the dilemma was when The Joker did his wee dance to Rock and Roll by Gary Glitter. As it turns out, the makers didn't know GG's story, and probably wouldn't have done it that way had they known. However, from an artistic POV, I thought "**** it, it works....".

"Never meet your heroes" isn't a bad aspiration either. :agree:

[pollution]

It is very difficult to separate recent artists from their art see Eric Gill. Quite disgusting really.

Historic figures such as Caravaggio and Bellini are now historic geniuses despite their crimes.

[speedy_gonzales]

"Love the art, don't have to love the artist" is a mantra I've lived by for a long time.

The artistic environment has long lent itself to bad behaviour, from Caravaggio to Kevin Spacey. And, no doubt, we've had our fair share of pricks playing for us while we worshipped them.

The most recent time I felt the dilemma was when The Joker did his wee dance to Rock and Roll by Gary Glitter. As it turns out, the makers didn't know GG's story, and probably wouldn't have done it that way had they known. However, from an artistic POV, I thought "**** it, it works....".

"Never meet your heroes" isn't a bad aspiration either. :agree:

Is that genuine? I'm not sure how because "GG's" Rock'n'Roll PT.2 was dropped/banned by a lot of the NFL teams/games including the Superbowl(where it was a big hit) after the historical abuse came to light.

[CropleyWasGod]

Is that genuine? I'm not sure how because "GG's" Rock'n'Roll PT.2 was dropped/banned by a lot of the NFL teams/games including the Superbowl(where it was a big hit) after the historical abuse came to light.

Nope 😂😂

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nme.com/news/film/joker-steps-scene-gary-glitter-song-choice-explained-2605433%3famp

[He's here!]

Is that genuine? I'm not sure how because "GG's" Rock'n'Roll PT.2 was dropped/banned by a lot of the NFL teams/games including the Superbowl(where it was a big hit) after the historical abuse came to light.

From the Guardian a few years back. The Gary Glitter fans who still follow the leader.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/01/gary-glitter-fans-paul-gadd-facebook

[Prof. Shaggy]

It's an interesting discussion.

As a classical music fan, I've always been in awe of the works of Wagner.

Let's just say his background is chequered.

No comment on who his biggest fan was either.

Percy Grainger.
(Not as Wagner's greatest fan!)

[Tyler Durden]

I think you do need to separate the art from the artist. I'm not going to stop enjoying The Smiths or Stone Roses just because Morrissey and Ian Brown have become w*nkers.

I think Nick Cave wrote an interesting piece on this https://www.theredhandfiles.com/views-on-morrissey/

[Onceinawhile]

I think you do need to separate the art from the artist. I'm not going to stop enjoying The Smiths or Stone Roses just because Morrissey and Ian Brown have become w*nkers.

I think Nick Cave wrote an interesting piece on this https://www.theredhandfiles.com/views-on-morrissey/

Funnily enough, I have started to enjoy the stone roses and the smiths less due to them becoming massive idiots. Struggle to listen to their music if I'm being honest. I don't know, but I just don't want to support them anymore.

Yet there's others who I would let away with it - jay-z for example or Dr dre.

[SaulGoodman]

Being a wrestling fan it’s something I have to do often, unfortunately

[JeMeSouviens]

I personally draw a bit of a distinction between a bit of a d**k (Morrissey, Ian Brown etc) and beyond the pale (Rolf, Gary Glitter etc).

[Kato]

I personally draw a bit of a distinction between a bit of a d**k (Morrissey, Ian Brown etc) and beyond the pale (Rolf, Gary Glitter etc).Did you chuck out your Rolf collection, JMS?

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[JeMeSouviens]

Did you chuck out your Rolf collection, JMS?

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Two little boys - no more. :boo hoo:

[Kato]

On topic I think JMS is right. Morrissey, imho, has always been a dick. I first saw the Smith's supporting The Gang of Four at the Lyceum in London. I thought he was a dick then but nothing he's done, that we know of, compares to Glitter so he can carry being a dick and people can either buy his product or not.

FWIW I can still listen to Phil Spector maybe as he's removed a step or so from the finished product.

I feel for Mike Leander who wrote and produced all of Glitter's work.

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[I'm_cabbaged]

It's an interesting discussion.

As a classical music fan, I've always been in awe of the works of Wagner.

Let's just say his background is chequered.

No comment on who his biggest fan was either.

Not his biggest fan myself. But did you know you can get messages sung to you from him for a score? 🤷*♂️

[Peevemor]

I can't help but have my opinions tainted by an artists faults/transgressions.

Bagad Cap caval (a Breton pipe band) use Michael Jackson's 'They Don't Care About Us" as a parade tune. They're a very good group and their adaptation/appropriation is excellent, but when I hear them do it I find myself wishing they hadn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6praxuiCJ0

[Peevemor]

Not his biggest fan myself. But did you know you can get messages sung to you from him for a score? 🤷*♂️

I forgot all about him once Hart to Hart finished, but then he was pretty good in Ausin Powers.

[superfurryhibby]

It's an interesting discussion. Take Mohammad Ali as an example. His views on race and the role of women would have him pilloried in this era. Back in the day, they were mostly ignored by the media.

[Mon Dieu4]

It's an interesting discussion. Take Mohammad Ali as an example. His views on race and the role of women would have him pilloried in this era. Back in the day, they were mostly ignored by the media.

Think Tyson is probably a better one, jailed for sexual assault and now all over the place and well liked by most

[superfurryhibby]

Think Tyson is probably a better one, jailed for sexual assault and now all over the place and well liked by most

He's a good example of someone being able to turn people's perceptions around.

Ali was never really challenged for his extreme views. He was possibly the most famous man in the world in the 1970's.

[Kato]

Bob Marley and all that Old Testament rubbish?

Liked some of the music but never a fan of what was really a tiny, misogynist, apocalyptic cult.

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[Sylar]

I used to be a massive Lostprophets fan.

I just can’t anymore. I tried, but his voice is too prominent that it ruins the effect.

[Smartie]

You could argue that the likes of Morrissey and Ian Brown haven’t changed - but that the same sorts of attitudes they express are admired in a young man but should really grown out of at some point.

With a few grey hairs, they seem more like gobby windbags than naive but principled idealists.

I have no problem listening to the music of either, but I really wish they would stfu and let their back catalogues do the talking.

It’s funny when you get caught listening to music where the brand may have gone toxic. The KLF have released all the old stuff they’re released under various guises in recent months and my partner walked into the room when “Doctorin the tardis” was on, and had to answer the “Gary Glitter, aye?” question when she walked into the room (the song heavily samples the song).

[Renton1875]

I used to be a massive Lostprophets fan.

I just can’t anymore. I tried, but his voice is too prominent that it ruins the effect.

Same here. I've tried and just can't listen to them without thinking what a sicko Watkins is.

[Hibbyradge]

Do you wanna be in my gang?