Manchester United and the Fergie years

[theonlywayisup]

Alex Ferguson was Manchester United manager from November 1986 until May 2013. We all know how successful he was at MU during those 26 years. During his time, MU won 13 Premier Leagues (or predecessor), 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 4 European trophies including 2 European Cups/Champions League. However, what I hadn't realised was how few trophies they won out with the Ferguson years.

Prior to Fergie, in 84 years they had won 7 predecessors to the Premier League, 6 FA Cups, no League Cups and 1 European Cups.

After Fergie, in 8 years they have won 0 Premier Leagues, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup and 1 Europa League.

Takeaway the Fergie years and it looks like MU are comparable to sides like Everton, Aston Villa and Sunderland, who won similar League titles and FA Cups.

So what's every ones views on MU future? Do you see them getting back to the Fergie glory years or is it inevitable that City, Chelsea and Liverpool will dominate them in future years, as they seem better placed to build on their more recent success - they've a better manager for a start.

Or will MU become the 'Aberdeen' of English football. Always referring back to the glory years under Fergie, but nowhere near the force that they were.

[Hibbyradge]

Those are amazing stats.

I had no idea.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Before Ferguson they were still considered the biggest club in English football, despite being utterly dominated by Liverpool for the previous couple of decades. And that status goes back to 1958. That tragic event forever transformed them from a regional, semi successful northern English football club into a global phenomenon.

they’ll be back.

[BILLYHIBS]

Decent Documentary on Fergie doing the rounds just now

Well worth a watch

[gbhibby]

Remember when Denis Law back heel relegated them. I think Liverpool were the same until Shanks then Paisley.

[SHODAN]

Remember when Denis Law back heel relegated them. I think Liverpool were the same until Shanks then Paisley.

Liverpool were the second team to Everton until Shankly came along were they not? Very different story and a far more dramatic transformation.

[blackpoolhibs]

Remember when Denis Law back heel relegated them. I think Liverpool were the same until Shanks then Paisley.

Is that not a myth as the goal did not matter, they were down irrespective of it? :confused:

[h1bs4life]

Decent Documentary on Fergie doing the rounds just now

Well worth a watch

Watched it on amazon yesterday.Never Give In
was very good , worth a watch

[Scouse Hibee]

Before Ferguson they were still considered the biggest club in English football, despite being utterly dominated by Liverpool for the previous couple of decades. And that status goes back to 1958. That tragic event forever transformed them from a regional, semi successful northern English football club into a global phenomenon.

they’ll be back.

No they weren’t.

[MWHIBBIES]

Too big a club now. Just a good manager away from being there or there abouts. Mental they persist with Ole.

[Sir David Gray]

Is that not a myth as the goal did not matter, they were down irrespective of it? :confused:

I think they could have survived if they had beaten Manchester City and other results had gone their way but in the end they lost to Manchester City and the other two results went against them anyway so in that sense yes they would have been down even if they had managed to beat Manchester City.

[calumhibee1]

Alex Ferguson was Manchester United manager from November 1986 until May 2013. We all know how successful he was at MU during those 26 years. During his time, MU won 13 Premier Leagues (or predecessor), 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 4 European trophies including 2 European Cups/Champions League. However, what I hadn't realised was how few trophies they won out with the Ferguson years.

Prior to Fergie, in 84 years they had won 7 predecessors to the Premier League, 6 FA Cups, no League Cups and 1 European Cups.

After Fergie, in 8 years they have won 0 Premier Leagues, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup and 1 Europa League.

Takeaway the Fergie years and it looks like MU are comparable to sides like Everton, Aston Villa and Sunderland, who won similar League titles and FA Cups.

So what's every ones views on MU future? Do you see them getting back to the Fergie glory years or is it inevitable that City, Chelsea and Liverpool will dominate them in future years, as they seem better placed to build on their more recent success - they've a better manager for a start.

Or will MU become the 'Aberdeen' of English football. Always referring back to the glory years under Fergie, but nowhere near the force that they were.

I’d said elsewhere on the forum that Man Utd aren’t in that top level of English clubs on the pitch anymore. They don’t offer a realistic threat to the title and are left battling out to be best of the rest, maybe get a cup win etc.

Out of your two options I’d say they’re headed towards being the Aberdeen of English football. Or another arsenal. They’ll continue to be a huge global brand though.

[BILLYHIBS]

I’d said elsewhere on the forum that Man Utd aren’t in that top level of English clubs on the pitch anymore. They don’t offer a realistic threat to the title and are left battling out to be best of the rest, maybe get a cup win etc.

Out of your two options I’d say they’re headed towards being the Aberdeen of English football. Or another arsenal. They’ll continue to be a huge global brand though.
They finished second in the best League in Europe qualifying for the Champions League and reached the Europa League Final in the season just ended to repeat my response from another thread :greengrin

[superfurryhibby]

Liverpool were the second team to Everton until Shankly came along were they not? Very different story and a far more dramatic transformation.

I thought that too, but they won six league titles prior to Shankly. NO FA cups though.

Ps: any chance of seeing the prediction league final table. I would like to offer the winner my cup final program as a prize:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Too big a club now. Just a good manager away from being there or there abouts. Mental they persist with Ole.

I'd have thought second place and 5 points ahead of last season's champions qualified as "thereabouts"?

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd have thought second place and 5 points ahead of last season's champions qualified as "thereabouts"?
12 points behind, 2 wins more for Utd and 2 less wins for City and there is nothing in it.:agree:

Comparisons with hibs are laughable.:faf:

[SHODAN]

I thought that too, but they won six league titles prior to Shankly. NO FA cups though.

Ps: any chance of seeing the prediction league final table. I would like to offer the winner my cup final program as a prize:wink:

I'm working on it!

[Smartie]

I was only a kid pre-Fergie but I still remember them being quite a weird phenomenon - loads of kids had them as their favourite English club, even though they hadn't won anything for donkeys and were really quite pish. It was funny how they turned into being the club for the gloryhunters not long after that.

Like Liverpool and their recent league title, it was quite a big deal when Fergie won them their first one in a while because it had become "a thing", especially considering the rate at which Liverpool had been hoovering them up over the previous couple of decades.

I have to say I find that level of football really dull and uninteresting these days - bland, corporate crap. I didn't watch the game between Russian oil and Saudi oil last night but via WhatsApp realised it was on. As an outsider looking in, Man Utd are just a huge, global brand that people choose to attach themselves to from all corners of the globe and I just find them utterly vanilla - the same as all these other bland, soulless entities that billions of people attach themselves to.

It's a shame because late 80s and into the 90s all of these clubs were interesting and dripping with character. And when you watch some of the documentaries (the recent Fergie one and I watched a Liverpool one fairly recently) you realise that deep down there is a beating heart and a football club still in there somewhere beneath the thousands of daytripper fans, the image rights, the breakaway leagues to make very rich people even richer etc...

But essential they're all just vehicles via which to sell rubbish to people, for despicable people who have got rich through being nasty, ruthless c**** and who have money but no popularity to attempt to buy some. It's not really about sport, competition or winning, or about community spirit, collectivism or shared experience and much as they try to tell us all that it is.

I really need to get round to cancelling my Sky...

[Pagan Hibernia]

No they weren’t.

well it’s no surprise a Liverpool fan wouldn’t agree. You lot were after all the dominant force. But yes, united absolutely were considered ‘bigger’ (and I know that’s a debatable term) than anyone else.

highest average attendances in the country in all but two seasons of the previous 3 decades prior to the 90s. 50k crowds in the second division etc. For all their success Liverpool couldn’t get near their crowds most of the time. United were huge. Ferguson took them to another level.

[MWHIBBIES]

I'd have thought second place and 5 points ahead of last season's champions qualified as "thereabouts"?

What would a good manager have done, though? Imagine they had Tuchel, or Conte? They'd have strolled the league.

Ole has done okay, but no better than Mourinho really and he gets slaughtered for his time at United.

[superfurryhibby]

I'm working on it!

:top marks

I'll let you off :not worth

[gbhibby]

I thought that too, but they won six league titles prior to Shankly. NO FA cups though.

Ps: any chance of seeing the prediction league final table. I would like to offer the winner my cup final program as a prize:wink:
I think Shanks took over when they were in the 2nd division. Looks like you need a Scottish Manger to become a great team down south. 😁

[Steven79]

I think Shanks took over when they were in the 2nd division. Looks like you need a Scottish Manger to become a great team down south. [emoji16]Everton and United had Moyes...
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[Renfrew_Hibby]

Everton and City were always regarded as the established, the main sides of their respective cities. Everton even more so as City and Utd were always fairly even but City just shaded it.

It took Busby and Shanks to change all that. Up until the mid 60s Everton were substantially the bigger club in anyway you would wish to measure, hard to make a comparison nowadays. Perhaps Chelsea versus Fulham/Brentford/QPR would be a fair one.

[Iggy Pope]

I think they could have survived if they had beaten Manchester City and other results had gone their way but in the end they lost to Manchester City and the other two results went against them anyway so in that sense yes they would have been down even if they had managed to beat Manchester City.

I was 11 years old and remember it being earth shattering that United went down, it was unthinkable that a club like that, fairly recent champions of Europe with a huge following of head cases could plummet like they did.

Wish it would happen again.

[blackpoolhibs]

Utd were a big club in those days before Fergie, but i dont think they were as world wide as they are now, as there was not the huge gap there is now in terms of income then.

[Peevemor]

No they weren’t.You'll no doubt have statistics to support what you're saying, but Man Utd pre-Ferguson makes me thing of Mr Bling Ron Atkinson, record transfer fees, etc.

[Wakeyhibee]

Utd were the biggest club growing up in the 70s in terms of support with Liverpool not far behind. In terms of success Liverpool were streets ahead and Man U mainly a cup side. Both were starting to get the worldwide attention they are famous for now.

As for the future both have such a standing it's hard to see either not being there or thereabouts for the foreseeable.

Strange days that they were battling against WBA, Ipswich, Leeds, Derby & Notts Forest for the League and not Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham as much.

[calumhibee1]

12 points behind, 2 wins more for Utd and 2 less wins for City and there is nothing in it.:agree:

Comparisons with hibs are laughable.:faf:

Again, something that hasn’t been mentioned once on this thread yet you again feel the need to have a dig at me.

Again, I’d say I’m surprised the admins allow it, but it seems some are exempt from following the rules of the forum. A thread even had to be locked the other day due to it yet it’s allowed to continue.

[calumhibee1]

They finished second in the best League in Europe qualifying for the Champions League and reached the Europa League Final in the season just ended to repeat my response from another thread :greengrin

Of course. They never really threatened to be realistic contenders for the title though. They never do anymore. Hence why I’d say they’re a spent force living off a past reputation.

If you’re consistently not realistic contenders for winning the title then you’re not one of the best teams in that country anymore imo.

[blackpoolhibs]

Again, something that hasn’t been mentioned once on this thread yet you again feel the need to have a dig at me.

Again, I’d say I’m surprised the admins allow it, but it seems some are exempt from following the rules of the forum.
Are you the only one who's said it?

[calumhibee1]

What would a good manager have done, though? Imagine they had Tuchel, or Conte? They'd have strolled the league.

Ole has done okay, but no better than Mourinho really and he gets slaughtered for his time at United.

No chance would they have strolled the league imo.

They don’t have the players to win the league. Not even close imo.

[Scouse Hibee]

well it’s no surprise a Liverpool fan wouldn’t agree. You lot were after all the dominant force. But yes, united absolutely were considered ‘bigger’ (and I know that’s a debatable term) than anyone else.

highest average attendances in the country in all but two seasons of the previous 3 decades prior to the 90s. 50k crowds in the second division etc. For all their success Liverpool couldn’t get near their crowds most of the time. United were huge. Ferguson took them to another level.

Just my opinion but crowd sizes don’t make a club huge.

[MWHIBBIES]

No chance would they have strolled the league imo.

They don’t have the players to win the league. Not even close imo.

Maybe not. A lot of injuries haven't helped them either. Man City had a really poor start in the league and Liverpool obviously had an awful middle portion. This season was a good one to go and win it.

I never thought Chelsea had the players to win the Champions league but Tuchel took them there.

[calumhibee1]

Maybe not. A lot of injuries haven't helped them either. Man City had a really poor start in the league and Liverpool obviously had an awful middle portion. This season was a good one to go and win it.

I never thought Chelsea had the players to win the Champions league but Tuchel took them there.

It definitely was the season for someone else to make a charge for it.

Leicester looked like they could do the unthinkable for a while but fell away.

[Hibbyradge]

What would a good manager have done, though? Imagine they had Tuchel, or Conte? They'd have strolled the league.

Ole has done okay, but no better than Mourinho really and he gets slaughtered for his time at United.

OGS has brought back attractive football. Mourinho squashed it.

[MWHIBBIES]

OGS has brought back attractive football. Mourinho squashed it.

Certainly nothing attractive about thier Europa league final performance. 2017 when they easily beat a good Ajax side was probably better.

[Hibbyradge]

Certainly nothing attractive about thier Europa league final performance. 2017 when they easily beat a good Ajax side was probably better.

Ok.

[Lancs Harp]

OGS is a very nice fella and its hard to dislike him but when it comes to managing a top team look at the other top clubs. City have Pep giant of the game. Liverpool have Klopp again giant of the game. Chelsea have Tuchel again giant of the game. United are competing with these clubs or trying to but havent got the management kudos. Look at the other managers in the Premier League like Bielsa, Rodgers and many others wh have earned their managerial stripes and have great reputations. Ollie is a great fella but he isnt the answer at United. BTW Im no United fan other than enjoying their football on occasion.

[gbhibby]

Everton and United had Moyes...
.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Moyes is doing a good job at West Ham. Did well at Everton on a limited budget. So have got more time at Man Utd. Always on a loser following Fergie. At least he wasn't as bad as Wilf McGuiness.
Watched on YouTube a piece on Old Trafford stadium. Problems with mice and poor maintenance of the Stadium. Also that seats are small and parts of the stadium it's uncomfortable. Glazers promised to spend on the stadium has not been forthcoming. Fergie must be unhappy with the way the club is being run.

[JimBHibees]

Decent Documentary on Fergie doing the rounds just now

Well worth a watch

Thought that was brilliant

[HoboHarry]

OGS is a very nice fella and its hard to dislike him but when it comes to managing a top team look at the other top clubs. City have Pep giant of the game. Liverpool have Klopp again giant of the game. Chelsea have Tuchel again giant of the game. United are competing with these clubs or trying to but havent got the management kudos. Look at the other managers in the Premier League like Bielsa, Rodgers and many others wh have earned their managerial stripes and have great reputations. Ollie is a great fella but he isnt the answer at United. BTW Im no United fan other than enjoying their football on occasion.
Ole still managed to finish higher in the league than all of these "giants of the game" other than Pep. You surely can't be saying that United haven't improved under OGS?

[MWHIBBIES]

Ok.

Good talk.

I understand that his football is probably a bit more pleasing on the eye (sometimes, sometimes his side a dreadful to watch) but its kinda irrelevant. United under Ferguson were rubbish to watch plenty of times, but got results.

[MWHIBBIES]

Ole still managed to finish higher in the league than all of these "giants of the game" other than Pep. You surely can't be saying that United haven't improved under OGS?

They havent improved from Mourinhos 2nd season.

[Hibbyradge]

Good talk.



WTF?

I'm not interested in having an argument which can't be proven one way or another so I accepted that's your view.

[Lancs Harp]

Ole still managed to finish higher in the league than all of these "giants of the game" other than Pep. You surely can't be saying that United haven't improved under OGS?

Maybe they have but are you saying they wouldnt improve more under a top renouned manager? Would United not be better under Pep/Klopp/tuchel etc? Mourinho was a risk in its self, obviously been at top name but his reputation is in decline.

Not sure if you're United fan or not but Im not sure the mjority of United fans are happy with things at present, well certainly not the ones I know.

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe they have but are you saying they wouldnt improve more under a top renouned manager? Would United not be better under Pep/Klopp/tuchel etc? Mourinho was a risk in its self, obviously been at top name but his reputation is in decline.

Not sure if you're United fan or not but Im not sure the mjority of United fans are happy with things at present, well certainly not the ones I know.

Liverpool have Klopp. They were third.

A name manager guarantees nothing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

No they weren’t.

Of course they were. Liverpool were winning everything but United always had the biggest crowds. In 1974/75, in the second division, United had the highest average attendance in English football at around 50,000.

As for Fergie, a trophy machine, like Jock Stein and Bob Paisley. Such managers are few and far between.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Is that not a myth as the goal did not matter, they were down irrespective of it? :confused:

Correct. I think it was Norwich City who won that day, meaning United would have been relegated regardless.

[Lancs Harp]

Liverpool have Klopp. They were third.

A name manager guarantees nothing.

You're right it doesnt but Bielsa finshieshed whatever Leeds finished, Rodgers finished fifth I think both would be an approvement on Ollie who I repeat I think is decent an vey nice fella just think United are limiting themselves and living nearish to manchester most United fans I know think the same. Improvement would be more rapid with a bteer manager. Lets face it other than playing for United what was on Ollies CV to give him one of the biggest jobs in world football?

[Iggy Pope]

You'll no doubt have statistics to support what you're saying, but Man Utd pre-Ferguson makes me thing of Mr Bling Ron Atkinson, record transfer fees, etc.

Earlier still Wilf McGuiness Dave Sexton and superstars like the Greenhoff brothers and Stuart Pearson. Gary Bailey. Gerry Daley.. ... that achieved an FA Cup win maybe two depending on the timeframe. Two decades passed that giant club by. My favourite memory of them is getting battered at home by a WBA side with black Englishmen that their Neanderthal Stretfordenders couldn’t ever get their heads around. Bet they understand now.

[Lancs Harp]

Earlier still Wilf McGuiness Dave Sexton and superstars like the Greenhoff brothers and Stuart Pearson. Gary Bailey. Gerry Daley.. ... that achieved an FA Cup win maybe two depending on the timeframe. Two decades passed that giant club by. My favourite memory of them is getting battered at home by a WBA side with black Englishmen that their Neanderthal Stretfordenders couldn’t ever get their heads around. Bet they understand now.

United 3 WBA 5 an amazing game. Albion were fantastic that day.

[Iggy Pope]

United 3 WBA 5 an amazing game. Albion were fantastic that day.

Cyrillie Regis destroying, obliterating in fact, all before him on lMatch of the Day or whatever they called it. I watched that night and realised that there were black players that really weren’t Pele or Eusebio! Next for me came the ANL, Rock Against Racism and pure enlightenment. And here we are. “Oh Manchester, so much to answer for....”

[Lancs Harp]

Cyrillie Regis destroying, obliterating in fact, all before him on lMatch of the Day or whatever they called it. I watched that night and realised that there were black players that really weren’t Pele or Eusebio! Next for me came the ANL, Rock Against Racism and pure enlightenment. And here we are. “Oh Manchester, so much to answer for....”

Think Lawrie Cunningham played in that game. He was fantastic even more naturally talented than King Cyrille. Signd for real Madrid and died in acar accident if I remember correctly. He was simply brilliant.

[Iggy Pope]

Think Lawrie Cunningham played in that game. He was fantastic even more naturally talented than King Cyrille. Signd for real Madrid and died in acar accident if I remember correctly. He was simply brilliant.

He did. He was. And he was. And he did.
What a collection of players they were. Magnificent and came from nowhere other than working class inner city Britain, like Man U once did, Gone off topic but as a 15 year old observing, they were light years ahead of Man U and their staid stuffy ways with journeyman cloggers. Funny, laughable really, how time, and much more importantly television and money, has changed our perception of what football clubs really are. And mean to the people that can’t live without them

[Scouse Hibee]

Of course they were. Liverpool were winning everything but United always had the biggest crowds. In 1974/75, in the second division, United had the highest average attendance in English football at around 50,000.

As for Fergie, a trophy machine, like Jock Stein and Bob Paisley. Such managers are few and far between.

Bigger crowds means **** all mate.

[JimBHibees]

Think Lawrie Cunningham played in that game. He was fantastic even more naturally talented than King Cyrille. Signd for real Madrid and died in acar accident if I remember correctly. He was simply brilliant.

Think Laurie went to United also with Ron not sure it worked out. Think he was with another Spanish club when he tragically died.

[Wakeyhibee]

Bigger crowds means **** all mate.

Back then it would have been the main measure of how big a club was as regards earnings as well as popularity. Otherwise you could say Ipswich were just as big a Utd, they both won 1 FA Cup and had similar league success (or lack of) over the decade.