My thoughts on yesterday's game: a balanced view

[Diclonius]

I refrained from posting yesterday as I was utterly dejected as opposed to the usual anger at an extremely disappointing result, and also wanted a bit of time to collect my thoughts together. As one of the "post count mafia" I'm sure I'll be derided for starting an entire thread of my own :wink: however, I don't think what I have to say really fits in one place in particular.



That is the worst cup final performance I can remember from us; I have however blocked out 2012 from memory entirely. One shot on target against St Johnstone is criminal. It's the best chance we'll EVER have to win that cup, and we blew it.




This "players aren't up for it/weren't bothered" attitude is pish. Of COURSE they were up for it, and wanted to win the game; they just weren't confident, and weren't sure of themselves. It starts with a few bad or misplaced passes and the defeatist attitude spreads. We've all been there; that feeling in any situation where you just feel it isn't happening for you today, and you don't know how to fix it. There WAS a lack of leadership and drive, someone willing to change things, however; the person who could give us that was on the bench. I'll get to that later.




Jack Ross has assembled a good squad with decent money, who are more than capable of winning the majority of games. We also stand to make a lot of money this summer, which will be reinvested (not something we could have said in years gone by). He is measured, calm and composed, and is clearly adept at getting consistent performances over the course of a season; hence our third place finish. However - and I hate to come back to this - he simply cannot motivate our players for big games irregardless of the opposition. We have one particular mentality that suits some games and doesn't suit others, and he is either unwilling or incapable of changing that. St Johnstone have figured us out and nothing changed. Six hours without a goal against them; you knew the minute the opener went in that was it.




Irrespective of our finish this season, we were in a very weak league with an Aberdeen side that is long past their glory days, and even then our head-to-heads were even with two wins apiece. Ross has NO wins against the Old Firm in ten games, three in six against Aberdeen, one in three against Hearts (including one of the worst derby performances in recent history at home to a team spiraling towards relegation), and three Hampden defeats out of four, all against teams below us in the league. Hearts will be promoted this year, and we are in real danger of some further embarrassing derby scorelines unless Ross changes his approach, if he is capable.




St Johnstone played impeccably and their achievement this season matches anything in the history of Scottish football. I don't think anyone can realistically argue with that.




Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but McGregor should not have been dropped for the final. He was our form defender and we missed his leadership and drive.




The squad: we are realistically going to lose at least half of Boyle, Doig, Nisbet and Porteous in the summer, but for good money that will be reinvested as our owner has clearly shown. We have a very technically gifted set of players, but we need to bring in leaders on the park. Macey has proven that he is capable of being our number one this season, we have a decent balance in midfield and Doidge is a great starting point to re-build our attack. We NEED to bring in players with the right mentality though.




Ryan Porteous is not going to develop further at Hibs. He has had two seasons to cut out the silly mistakes and rash challenges and has cost us more goals than can be tolerated (and very nearly one yesterday if not for our goalkeeper). His potential isn't in question, but he needs to move to a club that will train his current approach out of him, because we haven't. If anyone bids £1.5M+, I'd take it and break the bank for Jason Kerr.




I don't think Ross should be sacked. After the first Hampden defeat to St Johnstone I was of the mind that if we failed to get into Europe, his position should be under threat, and I stand by that. If he works on our approach to big games, he will be here a long time. It NEEDS to change, however, and he has lost a lot of the goodwill that he has clawed back over the course of the season.




There is plenty to look forward to next season. We're in Europe with a decent chance at the Europa Conference League group stage, there's money available to spend, and we'll all be back watching football for real soon. There have been far, far worse times to be a Hibs fan. This will hurt, and big questions will need to be asked, but it will pass. Personally speaking, given I wasn't there it doesn't really feel real, and the pain isn't as deep. Plus, we'll always have 2016.




Congratulations to our 2021 Prediction League wi- Ah sorry, wrong thread.

[green day]

My thoughts are that this is exactly how I would look at it rationally.

Only quibble is with the cavalier use of the word irregardless.............it should never be seen outside of an episode of The Sopranos.

[Daydreamer]

Well thought out post. Still think we need a midfield general (70's term but needed). Some of the players maybe are'nt as good as they think they are. Plenty to look forward to but don't think we will never have a better chance to win the cup again in my lifetime.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We without doubt need a captain who will lead by example and be the sort of guy his team mates are afraid to let down .... IE a right gobby dirty bassa who can play a bit. Scottish fitba ( or at least Scotland ) used to produce them by the bucket load.

[James70]

Losing to St Johnstone wasn't a disgrace but the performance was. We were out thought, out fought and we had the same game plan that we have had all season. Callum Davidson had done his homework whereas Jack Ross thought that tactics which had previously failed would miraculously work at last. We played the game at far too slow a rate with crossfield passing and an aimless hoof up the field which usually found a man in a blue shirt. St Johnstone didn't threaten too often but they stopped us playing. The few attacks they did have were much more dangerous than our powder puff efforts.

The size of our squad is ridiculously small after sending players out on loan and we seem unable to change things around when necessary. Too many players are certain of their place and being overused when their form dips. Other signings are not coming up to scratch and are weakening rather than strengthening the team.

We have no leaders on the park with the limited use of Darren McGregor and SDG.

Maybe a clear out this summer and new signings of the right calibre can not only change the shape of the team but strengthen it.

[kaimendhibs]

I agree with almost all you have written but I disagree the players were up for it. No passion or fight disolayed at all. I have watched every Hibs final since 1979 (was at all 3) and that was totally gutless.
Even 2012 we had a go and at 2 1 I felt we were still in it, then up stepped Thomson again.
Dropping Daz for Porto was massive too

[Pretty Boy]

Good post and agree with large parts of it.

Of all the finals we have lost in my lifetime, I think yesterday was number 7, that was the worst. It was just a nothing performance.

The argument goes that winning a trophy at Hibs isn't easy so you can't judge a manager on it. Of course it isn't easy to do, which if why you have to grab opportunities like those that we had this year with both hands and that's why I'm so angry about yesterday.

[wookie70]

I agree with most of that but hindsight was not required to see Daz would be the better choice for the final. Hanlon plays better alongside and Daz is course and distance winner. He may have made a difference to the way we went into the game because we were completely flat, lack confidence and energy from the first kick of the ball. 30 or 40 thousand Hibees may have helped with that but I was very glad to switch the telly off right on the full time whistle after being disgusted with our teams efforts.

[Since452]

I agree. Was shaking my head in disbelief/frustration when I saw the team sheet and Porteous in ahead of Daz. He's been there and done it in the big games and is on form. You need that in finals. You need any phycological edge and he'd have given the players that. I was happy with the rest of the team he picked just that one.

[gbhibby]

Jack Ross got the team selection wrong.
No need for DM against a team that play a system like St Johnstone. We needed mobility in midfield not Gogic and Irvine. Daz should have played instead of Ryan

Jack Ross needs to have a plan b and c.
Lots to look forward to I think it will be a very busy summer for the recruitment team.

[HibbyAndy]

I agree Jason Kerr is miles ahead of Porteous in development , Get him in , And make him captain , Our defenders are rudderless and not single one i'd keep on


And yes that includes blue eyed boy Hanlon

[Irish_Steve]

I would agree with a lot of that too.

I tried to refrain from posting yesterday too as anything just gets shot down by the "Jack Ross" out brigade.

I would disagree with the comment about JR not being able to motivate the players for big games, the players should be able to do that for themselves

[Ronniekirk]

I agree Jason Kerr is miles ahead of Porteous in development , Get him in , And make him captain , Our defenders are rudderless and not single one i'd keep on


And yes that includes blue eyed boy Hanlon

I would suspect Kerr is enjoying his football under a good coach and if they strengthen will feel he can achieve more and play in Europe
We would need to hope he feels winning two cups with saints is the pinnacle of his saints career and he wants a new challenge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MWHIBBIES]

My thoughts now are just kinda sadness. After 2016 and 2007, I knew how good yesterday would've felt and how big it would've been for the club. Sadly its just another chance missed. One we didn't take and one that, if Celtic get there act together, may not come around for a while. Celtic rattled off 4 trebles easily. Rangers are an excellent side again. We blew a huge chance at a cup double this season, and potentially European groupstage football. Thats not something to be scoffed at, or laughed off, or ''oh well, we'll gettem next time''. Its something this squad has to live with, and hopefully fix. They didn't show up at all yesterday. They didn't make the opposition work for it at all. Thats hard to take as a fan. They deserve the stick they'll get it for. For some of them, that will be their legacy here.

I don't really think sacking Ross solves anything right now, but ****ing hell Jack, thats a big black mark on your record here. 3rd in the league was great, cant complain on that front at all. To lose 1 really winnable trophy would've sucked, but to lose 2 without a whole lot of fight is, as I said, extremely hard to take. Its just **** to think about and a bit depressing. Ross needs to make good decisions this summer and get us starting next season well. No rubbish excuses or farting about with transfers or signing injured players. We need to hit the ground running in Europe and the league to get Saturdays loss out of our system. I guess the signs are positive with Mackay joining

Players wise, I'm extremely disappointed in our so called big names yesterday. Boyle completely no showed it again. Far too often in big games for him IMO. Other than a few good ones against Aberdeen, and his double at Hearts, he has generally been rubbish when we've needed him most. Far too easy to mark out the game, one dimentional, crossing is poor, corners awful. Nisbet was so poor as well. First touch was dreadful, every pass overhit, effort just not there. I'd have no hesitation letting him go. Been poor too many times when it has mattered. When he doesn't score, he is rarely involved. Doidge worked hard and competed but was generally handled too easily by their back 3.

Newall/Irvine/Gogic just sideways passes and no dynamic play at all. McGinn poor, gave it away too often, him and Boyle should've done better at the goal. Doig hit the first man with every cross, and was weak for the goal. Ryan poor, sloppy, shocking for the pen. Hanlon no confidence in his passing to find an attacking player other than once early doors. Macey a brilliant double save, cant fault him.

I'm not sure our midfield is as god awful as we think, but it does need work. If Irvine is farting about over a deal, bin him. We binned a better player in Fyvie, who had done far more for us, for it so why not Irvine. Newall and Gogic are fine, but I think only 1 of them should play. Get Allan back and get him fit, get him feeding the forwards. If he is fit and Ross doesn't see him as a part of his plans, then he needs to answer why because Allan changes games like yesterday. Remember him going 1 vs 11 to get us back into the Falkirk 2015 semi, hitting the bar etc. Sadly wasn't enough that day, but thats what we needed yesterday. We need a real dynamic midfielder in there next season, one who can win it and score goals, pass it and move. Should be priority number 1.

It looks likely we'll need a new left back as well. Doig is very likely to move on and Lewis cant come back in again IMO. A new centre back, probably two is also required. And another bloody striker.

Overall, more than anything I'd like us to be much more unpredictable next season. Its scary how easy we are to defend against sometimes. We need to make the opposition work, move them around, shoot from distance, take better advantage of set plays etc. I'd love to see us really taking our chances, really giving the opposition defence a hard time.

Long summer to watch the Euros and try to forget about yesterday...

[Zazu62]

Absolutely pathetic no striker on the bench not playing McGregor must have been great being a st Johnstone fan watching that knowing it was game over when they scored

[Irish_Steve]

Absolutely pathetic no striker on the bench not playing McGregor must have been great being a st Johnstone fan watching that knowing it was game over when they scored

What other strikers were available - it`s very easy to say "no striker on the bench" but if we don`t have one then you can`t play them!

[truehibernian]

What other strikers were available - it`s very easy to say "no striker on the bench" but if we don`t have one then you can`t play them!

Our club should have four strikers, especially given we play three sometimes four competitions. Been saying it for seasons now. All four should have different strengths.

[SlickShoes]

At least for once we cant blame the fans for getting on the players backs, so thats one positive to take from these big losses it completely dispells the myth that its caused by anxious fans.

[ekhibee]

Losing to St Johnstone wasn't a disgrace but the performance was. We were out thought, out fought and we had the same game plan that we have had all season. Callum Davidson had done his homework whereas Jack Ross thought that tactics which had previously failed would miraculously work at last. We played the game at far too slow a rate with crossfield passing and an aimless hoof up the field which usually found a man in a blue shirt. St Johnstone didn't threaten too often but they stopped us playing. The few attacks they did have were much more dangerous than our powder puff efforts.

The size of our squad is ridiculously small after sending players out on loan and we seem unable to change things around when necessary. Too many players are certain of their place and being overused when their form dips. Other signings are not coming up to scratch and are weakening rather than strengthening the team.

We have no leaders on the park with the limited use of Darren McGregor and SDG.

Maybe a clear out this summer and new signings of the right calibre can not only change the shape of the team but strengthen it.

Totally agree with every word of this.

[hibsbollah]

Good post. Agree with most of it.

[leith lynx]

Losing to St Johnstone wasn't a disgrace but the performance was. We were out thought, out fought and we had the same game plan that we have had all season. Callum Davidson had done his homework whereas Jack Ross thought that tactics which had previously failed would miraculously work at last. We played the game at far too slow a rate with crossfield passing and an aimless hoof up the field which usually found a man in a blue shirt. St Johnstone didn't threaten too often but they stopped us playing. The few attacks they did have were much more dangerous than our powder puff efforts.

The size of our squad is ridiculously small after sending players out on loan and we seem unable to change things around when necessary. Too many players are certain of their place and being overused when their form dips. Other signings are not coming up to scratch and are weakening rather than strengthening the team.

We have no leaders on the park with the limited use of Darren McGregor and SDG.

Maybe a clear out this summer and new signings of the right calibre can not only change the shape of the team but strengthen it.

Excellent synopsis

[One Day Soon]

Really good post and analysis.

I think we will look back and see that this season was a unique opportunity for us for a number of reasons and that our chance to finish third again is much slimmer as will be our chance of reaching cup finals. I look at an imploding Celtic, a restructuring Aberdeen, an absent Hearts and an emboldened St Johnstone and conclude that next season will be a much, much tougher proposition.

I think Celtic will improve, Aberdeen will probably improve, Hearts will be in our league which likely makes four of our games a street fight in a way that wasn't present this season and St Johnstone will live rent-free in our heads until we somehow beat them. On top of that we will likely also be restructuring.

If Jack Ross is an excellent manager in the middle of transforming Hibs we will find out next season. If he isn't, he is likely going to be found out next season.

[Franck Stanton]

My god, what a breath of fresh air this thread is. After all the rubbish posted on last 24 hrs, ( yes I do appreciate a lot of it was in anger & severe disappointment),. Some really, well balanced & thought out comments made. Well done to all.
Still gutted we put in such a heartless performance however.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A very good opening post: well thought out and measured. I agree with almost everything you say.

[Peevemor]

I don't agree with all of it 100% but given the number of points raised that's to be expected, but that's a cracking, well thought out & written opening post.

Thanks for taking the time.

[ScottB]

A small nitpick, but aren’t we now looking at having to go through three rounds just to get to the EC Group Stage? It’s St Johnstone who get the best Euro slot.

[Gloucester Hibs]

You failed to mention the influence a full end of Hibs fans would have made. IMO quite a big one especially after the penalty save. Conversely if we’d had fans in all season I’m not convinced we’d have finished 3rd.

[Diclonius]

My thoughts are that this is exactly how I would look at it rationally.

Only quibble is with the cavalier use of the word irregardless.............it should never be seen outside of an episode of The Sopranos.

Aye sorry, I've been called out on that one before. Bad habit. :wink:

[Sammy7nil]

Well thought out post however I do disagree with a few points. Jack Ross has yet prove he is an “excellent manager” finishing third in this league whilst good certainly does not confirm that. Our results at home this year included some shockers.

The results and more importantly the performances against Hearts and games at Hampden are simply not good enough.

Strange to say after a third place finish semis and a cup final but JR is under pressure. He has a rebuild on his hands and a very large minority of fans waiting to pounce on poor performance/ results.

We had a real opportunity to win a cup against a team who are no better than Hibs yet have our number and Jack failed miserably to change the set up to combat that.

Now we have a hangover with lots of pissed off fans saying same old Hibs. Instead of what should have been a massive feel good factor moving to next season.

[Phil MaGlass]

A manager that cant or doesnt know how to change tactics AND cant get a team up for ANY big games needs tae go. Our record against St.J, hertz,sellik, huns Dons is criminal, if we had even won against the OF it may have been a sign of improving, weve scraped third all season due to a very very poor league.Im chuffed were in Europe but under Ross we will last 2 games and thats it. Two embarrasing semis and a shocking final is the last straw.
Sammy 7 0, theres a rebuild coming but Ross should not be the one doing it. His flaws have been there for all to see all season. Not good enough for Hibs.

[MWHIBBIES]

A manager that cant or doesnt know how to change tactics AND cant get a team up for ANY big games needs tae go. Our record against St.J, hertz,sellik, huns Dons is criminal, if we had even won against the OF it may have been a sign of improving, weve scraped third all season due to a very very poor league.Im chuffed were in Europe but under Ross we will last 2 games and thats it. Two embarrasing semis and a shocking final is the last straw.

7 points is not scraping 3rd. We were comfortably 3rd. Last 2 games against Aberdeen 2 wins?

Seriously, there has been very little wrong with the league season, dunno why people cant seperate the cups from the league. I'd take 7 points clear in 3rd every time.

[StockholmHibs]

Great opening post. Agree with everything apart from the European paragraph.
I couldn't give a monkeys about Europe. We will fall at the first hurdle anyway. Would much rather pump hearts or the old firm.
Finishing 3rd was nice but what difference does it really make if we came 4th? Not much!
The cup was ther for the taking, twice! And we blew it. So disappointed 😞.
Might do more damage than good if we bin Ross at the moment.
I have no answers, the only thing I know is that these defeats wont be forgotten easily.

[Danderhall Hibs]

7 points is not scraping 3rd. We were comfortably 3rd. Last 2 games against Aberdeen 2 wins?

Seriously, there has been very little wrong with the league season, dunno why people cant seperate the cups from the league. I'd take 7 points clear in 3rd every time.

I can’t quite get my head round it - we skooshed 3rd - wasn’t the points achieved consistent with what normally achieves 3rd?

Even his record against Hearts getting thrown about - consistent dismissal of the win at tiny (he’s only had 3 games vs them). Consistently dismissing our 100% record v Aberdeen in 2021 (we can all move the stats about).

St Johnstone scraped into the top 6 in this “poor league” and then only manage to tie with Livi for last place in the top 6.

[makaveli1875]

The players chucked it , 1-0 down to st Johnstone and they could muster **** all in the last 15 minutes , nothing.
If we'd been 1-0 going into the last 15 up St J would have thrown the kitchen sink at us , if that didn't work they'd have come back with the bathtub for injury time .
The whole lot of them can bolt . They put more effort into the end of season bevvy session than the cup final .

[Danderhall Hibs]

The players chucked it , 1-0 down to st Johnstone and they could muster **** all in the last 15 minutes , nothing.
If we'd been 1-0 going into the last 15 up St J would have thrown the kitchen sink at us , if that didn't work they'd have come back with the bathtub for injury time .
The whole lot of them can bolt . They put more effort into the end of season bevvy session than the cup final .

:agree: said this to my mates/wife/anyone would listen yesterday. Went down with a whimper - no chances, didn’t even chuck it “into the mixer”.

If it had been the other way round they’d have battered our goal with crosses and long balls - we didn’t even try.

[Dr What If?]

The players chucked it , 1-0 down to st Johnstone and they could muster **** all in the last 15 minutes , nothing.
If we'd been 1-0 going into the last 15 up St J would have thrown the kitchen sink at us , if that didn't work they'd have come back with the bathtub for injury time .
The whole lot of them can bolt . They put more effort into the end of season bevvy session than the cup final .
This is what I'm still not getting my head around, my worry when we went behind is that we would be battering them but wouldn't get through....we didn't try though....so meek, every 50:50 lost....worse than that if it was a 60:40 it was them who battled to win the ball. So many back passes, no running at them, every free ball picked up by a blue shirt. From the first minute, nothing!

[HibbyAndy]

The players chucked it , 1-0 down to st Johnstone and they could muster **** all in the last 15 minutes , nothing.
If we'd been 1-0 going into the last 15 up St J would have thrown the kitchen sink at us , if that didn't work they'd have come back with the bathtub for injury time .
The whole lot of them can bolt . They put more effort into the end of season bevvy session than the cup final .

That game will live with me till my dying days , The last 15 minutes we should have chucked absolutely everything at them but we went out without a whimper


Really saddens me that performance , It was quite simply a pathetic performance

[MrRobot]

Jack Ross got the team selection wrong.
No need for DM against a team that play a system like St Johnstone. We needed mobility in midfield not Gogic and Irvine. Daz should have played instead of Ryan

Jack Ross needs to have a plan b and c.
Lots to look forward to I think it will be a very busy summer for the recruitment team.

Agreed.

McGregor should have started over Porto and Hallberg over Gogic IMO.

[Since452]

A manager that cant or doesnt know how to change tactics AND cant get a team up for ANY big games needs tae go. Our record against St.J, hertz,sellik, huns Dons is criminal, if we had even won against the OF it may have been a sign of improving, weve scraped third all season due to a very very poor league.Im chuffed were in Europe but under Ross we will last 2 games and thats it. Two embarrasing semis and a shocking final is the last straw.
Sammy 7 0, theres a rebuild coming but Ross should not be the one doing it. His flaws have been there for all to see all season. Not good enough for Hibs.

Professional pride has to come into it. If you need a manager to get you up for a cup final then there's something seriously wrong. Ultimately the manage carries the can but sometimes the players need to take a bit of responsibility. My guess (and I hope I'm right) is that Ross and Potter will have seen that some players don't have that big game mentality and are replaced with ones that do.