Do teams really 'not turn up' for games?

[He's here!]

The phrase 'we didn't turn up' is one that puzzles me. It strikes me as a catch-all kind of excuse, similar to 'off day' or 'bad day at the office' and makes little sense. Why would any team fail to 'turn up' for a cup final? We came into the game on the back of a big win at Pittodrie to secure third place, a solid showing against Celtic which seemed to indicate we have a strong squad, and then had a full, injury-free week to prepare for the season finale. What possible reason would there be for a team not to give it their absolute all?

Jack Ross said he couldn't fault the players' effort yesterday and I do find it hard to believe that the players wouldn't try their utmost. If that's the case then it has to come down to tactics and the fact the players stick so rigidly to those tactics that when they don't work the whole side suffers a collective failure. We do, in my view, currently have a team with little in the way of individual flair and while a 'win as a team, lose as a team' collective mindset can pay off when the tactics are spot on, the lack of a Russell Latapy (we can but dream!) or an on-song Scott Allan really counts against us on days like yesterday.

[hibIBZ]

Yes I think so, playing sport at lot of my life, there are games where you just aren't on it. Not matter how big the game, sometimes for next to no reason, the team just doesn't perform.

We were flat and slow to start and it cost us again. I think the line up is pretty much how most of us would of played, I don't think St Johnstone played much better, I don't think it was a case they wanted it more. The game went pretty much how every game against them has gone and I'm not sure we have the players to change to much.

We need to improve the speed we play at, we need to work on our defensive concentration. I'm sure Ross will know this and has already made moves to bring in a winger

[loanheadhibby]

Yes I think so, playing sport at lot of my life, there are games where you just aren't on it. Not matter how big the game, sometimes for next to no reason, the team just doesn't perform.

We were flat and slow to start and it cost us again. I think the line up is pretty much how most of us would of played, I don't think St Johnstone played much better, I don't think it was a case they wanted it more. The game went pretty much how every game against them has gone and I'm not sure we have the players to change to much.

We need to improve the speed we play at, we need to work on our defensive concentration. I'm sure Ross will know this and has already made moves to bring in a winger
I may get shot down but watching today saddened me just how average our players are. We weren't good enough the last 20 mins to put any pressure on St Johnstone.
Hopefully we can get good money for Doig, Nisbet, Boyle and Porteous but nobody could convince me they could play at a higher level than Hibs.

[Dalianwanda]

I thought in our games against Aberdeen & Dundee United we looked great. Disciplined, determined &. had a plan which was executed perfectly.

Yesterday I can only put it down to mindset or tactics. What that mindset was Ive no idea (could have been too confident, scared because of previous results, thinking about future games/moves...who knows) but we certainly didnt look like the team of the previous two games. So not showing up for me means not being in the right mental state, thats going to effect the way they see their game, which will effect their behaviours which ultimately creates the result.

[heid the baw]

St Johnston have not lost a cup tie this season, we had lost 2. They played to their strengths, got the goal, worked hard as a team, missed a chance to put it to bed and immediately got back to the game plan.
We had no answer to that. We needed someone to take a risk. There are no leaders in that team, no mavericks, no swagger. To win cups you need a Burridge, a Rob Jones, an Anthony Stokes, a David Gray. Someone to rabble rouse the others and try something different when it's not working.
The problem was that Hibs turned up, not the other way around.

[MWHIBBIES]

We had zero plan to score a goal, like the previous 2 league matches against them. Thats the issue. Could've played all ****ing night.

[danhibees1875]

Generally there's usually a lack of appreciation to the fact we're up against another team of 11 trying to win, however I think there's a good argument yesterday that we also just "didn't show up".

SJ nullified our threat effectively, but we made it easy for them by not being particularly threatening.

There was a wee spell at the start of the second half where we looked like we might have something about us. It looked like they had been inspired at HT and were playing neater football, playing out from the back, and looked a bit of a threat but it seemed to disappear as readily as it appeared.

[superfurryhibby]

I thought in our games against Aberdeen & Dundee United we looked great. Disciplined, determined &. had a plan which was executed perfectly.

Yesterday I can only put it down to mindset or tactics. What that mindset was Ive no idea (could have been too confident, scared because of previous results, thinking about future games/moves...who knows) but we certainly didnt look like the team of the previous two games. So not showing up for me means not being in the right mental state, thats going to effect the way they see their game, which will effect their behaviours which ultimately creates the result.



Your first sentences sum it up . We won those games for the reasons you highlighted. We lost yesterday’s game because our manager isn’t able to alter tactical course against a side that we know are pretty average. The players aren’t stupid, they will have been questioning the approach before we even kicked a ball.

[Eyrie]

Yes I think so, playing sport at lot of my life, there are games where you just aren't on it. Not matter how big the game, sometimes for next to no reason, the team just doesn't perform.

We were flat and slow to start and it cost us again. I think the line up is pretty much how most of us would of played, I don't think St Johnstone played much better, I don't think it was a case they wanted it more. The game went pretty much how every game against them has gone and I'm not sure we have the players to change to much.

We need to improve the speed we play at, we need to work on our defensive concentration. I'm sure Ross will know this and has already made moves to bring in a winger

I'm beginning to think that we made a mistake extending Newell, because he is the one that slows our tempo.

Yesterday in the first half, we won the ball and it was played to him just short of the centre circle. Instead of taking the ball and turning upfield to see his options, Newell simply passed it all the way back to Macey to Porteous' obvious annoyance.

I'm not singling Newell out for yesterday's result (he was as good/bad as all the other players), but I don't see that he is what we need.

[ABZHFC]

We were simply tactically inept yesterday, played route one balls all afternoon despite knowing full well it wasn’t working. I thought it might have changed second half, first 5-10 minutes we got it down better, but **** me, truly abysmal

[ehf]

I thought in our games against Aberdeen & Dundee United we looked great. Disciplined, determined &. had a plan which was executed perfectly.

Yesterday I can only put it down to mindset or tactics. What that mindset was Ive no idea (could have been too confident, scared because of previous results, thinking about future games/moves...who knows) but we certainly didnt look like the team of the previous two games. So not showing up for me means not being in the right mental state, thats going to effect the way they see their game, which will effect their behaviours which ultimately creates the result.

:agree: Talent, fitness and tactics are important but mindset is the key differential in elite sport, especially games like this. Ours was a mess but St Johnstone knew that had the measure of us, had already won a trophy this season, an inner confidence that they would get the job done and a willingness to give everything they had to achieve that.

[Wheat Hound]

I'm beginning to think that we made a mistake extending Newell, because he is the one that slows our tempo.

Yesterday in the first half, we won the ball and it was played to him just short of the centre circle. Instead of taking the ball and turning upfield to see his options, Newell simply passed it all the way back to Macey to Porteous' obvious annoyance.

I'm not singling Newell out for yesterday's result (he was as good/bad as all the other players), but I don't see that he is what we need.

Remember that moment well where Newells 1st instinct was to lazily pass the ball back. No willingness to be positive, to take responsibility and no drive....symbolic of our team as a whole yesterday.

[Onion]

The phrase 'we didn't turn up' is one that puzzles me. It strikes me as a catch-all kind of excuse, similar to 'off day' or 'bad day at the office' and makes little sense. Why would any team fail to 'turn up' for a cup final? We came into the game on the back of a big win at Pittodrie to secure third place, a solid showing against Celtic which seemed to indicate we have a strong squad, and then had a full, injury-free week to prepare for the season finale. What possible reason would there be for a team not to give it their absolute all?

Jack Ross said he couldn't fault the players' effort yesterday and I do find it hard to believe that the players wouldn't try their utmost. If that's the case then it has to come down to tactics and the fact the players stick so rigidly to those tactics that when they don't work the whole side suffers a collective failure. We do, in my view, currently have a team with little in the way of individual flair and while a 'win as a team, lose as a team' collective mindset can pay off when the tactics are spot on, the lack of a Russell Latapy (we can but dream!) or an on-song Scott Allan really counts against us on days like yesterday.

St Johnstone don't score if Boyle or McGinn beat Callum Booth in those two tackles. Instead, you have is a St J player determined to win the ball and throwing himself into tackles, and Hibs players shirking or being less bothered about winning the ball. Perfect examples of one player "turning up" for a Final and two others making up the numbers.

[B.H.F.C]

St Johnstone don't score if Boyle or McGinn beat Callum Booth in those two tackles. Instead, you have is a St J player determined to win the ball and throwing himself into tackles, and Hibs players shirking or being less bothered about winning the ball. Perfect examples of one player "turning up" for a Final and two others making up the numbers.

Their goalie showed the desire they had to keep the ball out the net when he came and wiped out his own player to punch the ball clear in the second half.

It was about the only challenge on a St Johnstone player all day and it took one of their own players to do it. Boyle’s ‘contribution’ at their goal was absolutely disgusting.

[He's here!]

Yes I think so, playing sport at lot of my life, there are games where you just aren't on it. Not matter how big the game, sometimes for next to no reason, the team just doesn't perform.

We were flat and slow to start and it cost us again. I think the line up is pretty much how most of us would of played, I don't think St Johnstone played much better, I don't think it was a case they wanted it more. The game went pretty much how every game against them has gone and I'm not sure we have the players to change to much.

We need to improve the speed we play at, we need to work on our defensive concentration. I'm sure Ross will know this and has already made moves to bring in a winger

I get that for individual sports like, say, tennis or golf, where the players are often playing an event that lasts for several days and they simply can't maintain the intensity or momentum required, but for a team sport why would the WHOLE TEAM not be on it? As I said, I can only guess it comes down to an almost slavish collective attempt to stick rigidly to incorrect tactics.

[Smartie]

It was the sort of performance that gets explained years later when it emerges that there was a row about bonuses going on in the lead up.

[H18S NX]

Or is it our manager and team were dug****e yesterday.

[blackpoolhibs]

Remember that moment well where Newells 1st instinct was to lazily pass the ball back. No willingness to be positive, to take responsibility and no drive....symbolic of our team as a whole yesterday.

Newell did turn the right way once, drove forward and had a shot at goal, but you are right, his first instinct is to turn around in a circle, then pass the ball backwards or sideways.

I watched him do that so many times yesterday, is it any wonder we did not break them down when he gives them the time to all get back into their shape. :grr:

[Jim44]

Plenty’s been said about our formation and game plan ( or lack of it ), but something that really disappointed me was that, not once, did any of our players try to produce that wee bit of individual spark of creativity that can often lead to a goal. We were so easy to read, particularly by a team that’s already read us chapter and verse, all season.

[B.H.F.C]

Plenty’s been said about our formation and game plan ( or lack of it ), but something that really disappointed me was that, not once, did any of our players try to produce that wee bit of individual spark of creativity that can often lead to a goal. We were so easy to read, particularly by a team that’s already read us chapter and verse, all season.

Said it for the whole of the second half, they were all waiting on someone else doing something. They all hid, nobody tried to do anything. Didn’t need to be anything special, going and winning the ball back high up the pitch (McGregor in 2016) or attempting to run forward (Fyvie in 2016). Just something, anything, to spark them a bit. Goalie saving the penalty should have done it but none of them cared enough to give it a go.

[jeffers]

Plenty’s been said about our formation and game plan ( or lack of it ), but something that really disappointed me was that, not once, did any of our players try to produce that wee bit of individual spark of creativity that can often lead to a goal. We were so easy to read, particularly by a team that’s already read us chapter and verse, all season.

The trouble is Jim, we are so heavily reliant on Martin Boyle for that and St Johnstone knew that only too well, then add in 2 out of your 3 midfielders don’t create and the other one who might was out on the left and totally off his game.

[Steve20]

It’s an excuse used for players who aren’t as good as they think they are and actually have the backbone of a jellyfish.

[matty_f]

Not one player won their personal battle with their opponent. St Johnstone went man for man and they all won theirs.

That’s one of the biggest disappointments, we needed players on the park who were determined to win, to go at their opposite number again and again and we were left wanting.

You can talk about tactics, formations, systems etc all day long, but if players don’t have the heart for the fight on the day, you’re always going to struggle.

I have no complaints about the team selection. It was a toss up between Porteous and McGregor, but other than that I think Ross was right to think he could trust the eleven that started.

Easy to manage the game with hindsight, but i genuinely don’t know what formation or tactics you could set up that counters your own players ****ting the bed on the day.

[B.H.F.C]

Not one player won their personal battle with their opponent. St Johnstone went man for man and they all won theirs.

That’s one of the biggest disappointments, we needed players on the park who were determined to win, to go at their opposite number again and again and we were left wanting.

You can talk about tactics, formations, systems etc all day long, but if players don’t have the heart for the fight on the day, you’re always going to struggle.

I have no complaints about the team selection. It was a toss up between Porteous and McGregor, but other than that I think Ross was right to think he could trust the eleven that started.

Easy to manage the game with hindsight, but i genuinely don’t know what formation or tactics you could set up that counters your own players ****ting the bed on the day.

I pretty much agree with all of that. Where I think Ross deserves criticism is that he did absolutely nothing, tactically, to try and change things a bit.

The more it’s sunk in I honestly can’t figure out what was up with the players. I know we’re capable of being ***** at times. But there was just a total lack of interest in doing the basic things you need to do in a game.

[matty_f]

I pretty much agree with all of that. Where I think Ross deserves criticism is that he did absolutely nothing, tactically, to try and change things a bit.

The more it’s sunk in I honestly can’t figure out what was up with the players. I know we’re capable of being ***** at times. But there was just a total lack of interest in doing the basic things you need to do in a game.

He did. There were changes throughout the game but St Johnstone adapted very well to them. Ultimately it came down, imho, to their players wanting it more/being more up for the fight than ours.

You look at their goal - who is determined to win the ball? It’s not Boyle, it’s not Doig - it’s St Johnstone players. That was repeated all through the match.

I know you shouldn’t read too much into things, but even in the build up - Kerr comes out in the paper and commits to St Johnstone amidst all the transfer speculation.

We’ve got Boyle’s agent (presumably) touting his release clause and Boyle talking about needing to see what happens.

Night and day approaches. St Johnstone had a team committed to winning, we had boys with an eye on their next moves, and it showed.

[blackpoolhibs]

I pretty much agree with all of that. Where I think Ross deserves criticism is that he did absolutely nothing, tactically, to try and change things a bit.

The more it’s sunk in I honestly can’t figure out what was up with the players. I know we’re capable of being ***** at times. But there was just a total lack of interest in doing the basic things you need to do in a game.
He took Gogic off, he took Newell off and replaced them with a wide man Murphy, and a player with more energy and forward thinking Hallberg.

[B.H.F.C]

He did. There were changes throughout the game but St Johnstone adapted very well to them. Ultimately it came down, imho, to their players wanting it more/being more up for the fight than ours.

You look at their goal - who is determined to win the ball? It’s not Boyle, it’s not Doig - it’s St Johnstone players. That was repeated all through the match.

I know you shouldn’t read too much into things, but even in the build up - Kerr comes out in the paper and commits to St Johnstone amidst all the transfer speculation.

We’ve got Boyle’s agent (presumably) touting his release clause and Boyle talking about needing to see what happens.

Night and day approaches. St Johnstone had a team committed to winning, we had boys with an eye on their next moves, and it showed.

We didn’t change anything tactically. We put different players in to the same shape, that was it.

It wasn’t working, he had to try and do something differently. What the answer was, I don’t know, but to just keep doing the same thing when it isn’t working is mad IMO.

[BoomtownHibees]

He took Gogic off, he took Newell off and replaced them with a wide man Murphy, and a player with more energy and forward thinking Hallberg.

He changed personnel. Nothing changed about our shape throughout the whole game

[blackpoolhibs]

He changed personnel. Nothing changed about our shape throughout the whole game

Of course we did, we put a winger on to replace Irvine who is not a winger, who then played central getting forward much more than Gogic will, and we replaced Newell who is very defensive, with a more forward looking players.

[Pretty Boy]

There have been a fair few games this season in which the performance levels have dropped way below what we know this group is capable off. Unfortunately at least 2 of those games happened to be at Hampden.

Off days happen. My main participant sport these days is running. I have days where I feel good and run a good race. Other days I train the same, prepare the same, eat the same but feel rubbish and drop off my pace early doors. It's frustrating and inexplicable but it happens.

Yesterday was more than that though because it was almost everyone, the entire team struggled. From indecisiveness in the defence to the unwillingness of the midfield to impose themselves on the game and take a risk through to the no show of our attacking threat. From 1st to last it was insipid, lacklustre and absolutely ****ing infuriating.

Ross has to take a share of the blame. St Johnstone played like they always do, there was no secrets or nuances to them and once again we failed to counteract it. The argument might be that 'they should worry about us' but I don't think that works here, they know how to beat us, we had to react and find a way to beat them. None of that excuses the players though. Too often the manager becomes the lightning rod for criticism and eventually they pay the price with their job. However we were set up yesterday the players had the ability to win their battles, give their all and leave nothing out there. If a few of that group looked themselves in the mirror and were totally honest with themselves could they say they did so?

Whether it's an attitude issue or a mentality one I don't know but for the 3rd time this season they have let not only us but themselves down at Hampden.

[ancient hibee]

Isn't it obvious that SJ would be concentrating on nullifying Boyle and that we should have worked on something on the other side of the park. To me that could have been done by playing Doig further forward in place of Irvine with Stevenson behind him.Even thouigh he will do well Doig has been over praised but he has pace and shows spirit. Yesterday he had one run when he forced a corner out of nothing. This compared with Murphy who later got in the same position and meekly allowed himself to be shepherded over for a bye kick. I really don't think that changing to that set up could have been any worse than the performance of Irvine yesterday.Newell has some good qualities but as Souness said in an article recently "when he sees passing stats he wants to know what parr of the park the passes were made in". All my years supporting Hibs a common fault in all but the best sides has been a readiness to allow opponents to set the tempo of the game. Quite clearly against a well drilled side like SJ you have to try to take them out of their comfort zone by doing something differently. We failed miserably.

[CL0762]

Not one player won their personal battle with their opponent. St Johnstone went man for man and they all won theirs.

That’s one of the biggest disappointments, we needed players on the park who were determined to win, to go at their opposite number again and again and we were left wanting.

You can talk about tactics, formations, systems etc all day long, but if players don’t have the heart for the fight on the day, you’re always going to struggle.

I have no complaints about the team selection. It was a toss up between Porteous and McGregor, but other than that I think Ross was right to think he could trust the eleven that started.

Easy to manage the game with hindsight, but i genuinely don’t know what formation or tactics you could set up that counters your own players ****ting the bed on the day.

Probably the post I resonate with the most tbh.

You can argue about the managers tactics being sub standard and all of that, but ultimately the players on the park have to have the desire to go out there and win their battles, like you said.

Callum Booth, someone deemed not good enough for Hibs, showed the type of fight required to win a game not once but twice in the space of a few seconds. He was determined that he was getting that ball and that for me was the main difference between the 2 sides.

Jason Kerr said it in his interview after the game, St Johnstone wanted it more and that for me is unforgivable.

You can show up and get beaten on the day, that happens all over football.

But we went down with an absolute whimper, absolutely no one in that side had the balls required to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. The manager can’t instill fight or desire, that has to come from within.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Hibs played rubbish yesterday - so what, it's called life.

I don't understand the people on this website - Hibs have given the fans a great distraction from real life in the last few weeks - everyone had been looking forward to the Cup Final and hoping for the best - that's what being a fan is about. It would have been great if Hibs had won, but sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But people just want to slag off the players, want them sold, want the manager sacked.

It's sport - there's no entitlement to winning a game. And it is only a hobby for everyone on here.

[BoomtownHibees]

Hibs played rubbish yesterday - so what, it's called life.

I don't understand the people on this website - Hibs have given the fans a great distraction from real life in the last few weeks - everyone had been looking forward to the Cup Final and hoping for the best - that's what being a fan is about. It would have been great if Hibs had won, but sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But people just want to slag off the players, want them sold, want the manager sacked.

It's sport - there's no entitlement to winning a game. And it is only a hobby for everyone on here.

Yep, so what 🙄

[MWHIBBIES]

Hibs played rubbish yesterday - so what, it's called life.

I don't understand the people on this website - Hibs have given the fans a great distraction from real life in the last few weeks - everyone had been looking forward to the Cup Final and hoping for the best - that's what being a fan is about. It would have been great if Hibs had won, but sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But people just want to slag off the players, want them sold, want the manager sacked.

It's sport - there's no entitlement to winning a game. And it is only a hobby for everyone on here.

I wish it was a case of sometimes we win, sometimes we don't.

Thats 8 finals for me now, 2 wins. More often we lose. I don't want to slag off anyone, I really don't. I defended Ross and the players all season. Yesterday they ****ed our best shot at Silverware in years.

St Johnstone have been in 3 finals, won 3.

[Hibee Mac]

I agree with the general consensus here, I still think JR offered no tactical alternatives to counter St Johnstone but the vast majority of the blame lies with the players here.

JR could have been bold and tried something tactically different to the last 3 carbon copy games v them, but I still think the way he set us up we should have been capable of doing so much more. The players should be ashamed after that performance, utterly woeful.

I wouldn't be saying that if we showed some fight about us but that was clearly not the case. I'll find it difficult to trust this group of players when the chips are down.