Would Daz have made a difference?

[Cookiehibs]

A lot of people saying would Daz have made any difference today. In certain aspects of the game maybe not. However, we have a born leader there. Someone who knows what it means, a guy who would kick a few back sides and remind them what’s at stake. For me Daz is still streaks ahead of porteous who still has lots to learn. I might be biast as I’m a friend of darrens but it was so clear he was the type of leader we needed on the pitch today

[et_hibby]

For me, yes, we had been outfought and outplayed in the previous 3 SJ games and DM inclusion may at least have meant we weren’t outfought. Kane was able to bully the defence too many times today, DM may have prevented

[RoscoHibby]

Was saying from HT bring him on with 20 to go if we were getting beat...stick him up front, all we were ultimately doing, despite Hanlon n Porto’s many touches was ****ing shelling it up the park anyway...would’ve least won a header and is at least a semblance of a plan b, albeit a desperate, last minute one, it’s still something different from that abject pish...we had all game..

[davym7062]

of course he would. hes a leader but we were stuck wih ryan who was st js best player

[B.H.F.C]

I’d have played him but not convinced it would have made much difference.

[Sammy7nil]

No

[Newry Hibs]

Porteous is the scapegoat for this. Defence wasnt the problem. It was getting the ball forward.

[Sir David Gray]

Possibly not but I'd have definitely had him up for the game.

[BS44]

No difference at all.

He wouldn't be in a position to stop their goal, and McGregor playing wouldn't have made any difference to our over hyped three forwards doing nowt toady

Certain posters on here need to stop trying to kid themselves and others that big Daz was the answer to our problems and all round ***** display today

[1875Sean]

No for me, don’t get me wrong he should have played but daz wouldn’t have done anything to stop that goal

[pedroorange1875]

Does anyone think our 6 foot 7 Keeper....thats 2m and nearly 9 feet without jumping with hands up....could have maybe influenced that more?....just interested caused ive watched the cross a few times now

[hibby6270]

Defence wasn’t the problem today. From a motivation / lifting the team point of view Darren playing might have helped.
However, other than the foul that led to their penalty, the defence coped pretty well without Darren.
Again, other than the double save from the penalty, I’m struggling to recall Macey having to make any significant saves. Mind you, their keeper was equally unbusy other than Irvine’s shot first half.

End of the day St J did well what they normally do. We didn’t. Simple as that.

[easty]

He’d have made a difference if he played in a 3 at the back.

If we’d matched them up then, potentially, we’d have had a centre half fighting with Rooney for that goal, instead of the mis-match of Doig,

Other than that though, Daz wouldn’t have done anything that helped the forward players get the finger out.

[easty]

Does anyone think our 6 foot 7 Keeper....thats 2m and nearly 9 feet without jumping with hands up....could have maybe influenced that more?....just interested caused ive watched the cross a few times now

I don’t think the keeper could’ve got it.

[Unseen work]

We hardly created a chance.

I can’t see Daz changing that.

[Baader]

Does anyone think our 6 foot 7 Keeper....thats 2m and nearly 9 feet without jumping with hands up....could have maybe influenced that more?....just interested caused ive watched the cross a few times now

Keeper was the only one who did what was asked today, sadly.

[LaMotta]

Ross had to try something different today and he didn't. Daz starting would have been a change from the previous failures v Saints. I fully believe Daz would have made a difference today - Kane had a ****in field day, Porteous was all over the place, including in the run up to the goal.

McGregor was the best player on the pitch in our last 2 games keeping clean sheets v Abdn and Celtc. Absolutely crazy not to start him.

[Tambo]

Was we going to play McGregor as a play maker or a striker?

Definitely wouldn’t of made much difference if he started.

[Northernhibee]

No.

[The Modfather]

No. Even if he’s played we’d have still had the same issues, a lopsided 442 with Newell, that had been as ineffectual yesterday as it had in all the other games against St Johnstone.

[Gloucester Hibs]

If we’d gone 5-3-2 then possibly, but not as a direct replacement for Porto.

[HFCdeb]

If we’d gone 5-3-2 then possibly, but not as a direct replacement for Porto.

This. I can't believe JR set us up in the same way that's seen us beaten by St Johnstone repeatedly this season. I really thought we'd see a formation and personnel change for yesterday so that we'd have a chance of actually winning the match.

[The Wireless]

He’d have made a difference if he played in a 3 at the back.

If we’d matched them up then, potentially, we’d have had a centre half fighting with Rooney for that goal, instead of the mis-match of Doig,

Other than that though, Daz wouldn’t have done anything that helped the forward players get the finger out.
We may have had Porto closer to the player who delivered the cross for Rooney’s header.

[rossevenil]

Daz would have at least put a rocket up some of that teams *****! Probably wouldn`t have stopped the goal,but would the chance have arrived if 2 of our players challenged Callum Booth as whole heartedly as he challenged them?
Would have started with Lewis and Daz with Josh and Ryan to come on later in the game to freshen things up,some experience was needed in that team yesterday,no urgency from the get go when without the ball and no composure with it!

Subs were astonishing....Irvine done the square root of hee haw other than miss another glaring opening,yet off comes Gogic to be replaced by Murphy and then Newell goes off for Hallberg! Gogic and Newell weren`t having the greatest of games but both merited staying on the pitch
ahead of Irvine without a doubt.

[LeithMike]

If we’d gone 5-3-2 then possibly, but not as a direct replacement for Porto.Agree. We changed personnel and nothing much improved. We just dont have the central midfield types or players who are good enough for a flat 4-4-2.

As well as giving us a better foothold in midfield, 3-5-2 might have allowed us to defend the goal better. Doig would have had less defensive duties and it probably would have been Paul Hanlon covering Rooney. That would have made more sense knowing the threat that Rooney had posed in previous games.

Other factors in favour of 3-5-2

- allows Paul McGinn to focus more on the defensive side.
- Boyle plays the RWB role well.
- it creates a specific role for one of our two sitting midfielders who dont support the strikers - Newell and Gogic
-would have allowed for a more industrious player to run off the ball and try and create space - Hallberg
- would have allowed Irvine to focus on linking the attack

All that said, I'm still not convinced that team would have got a result. However, right from the kick off it was evident that Gogic and Newell resulted in us being completely compartmentalised as a team and our strikers isolated. I know Jack likes to "trust" the players but the evidence base was there that the selected team didn't work. Would have liked to have seen Nisbet take greater iniative and drop deeper to help us get on the ball more.

Ross might still make us a decent team but if he's going to persist with a 4-4-2 there isnt any room for Gogic or Newell and we need two really good central midfielders who can both defend and attack. Those dont come cheap.


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[Hiber-nation]

To play a young player who is struggling badly with his form and drop our most experienced player who has been man of the match in his last few games is as bad a decision as I have ever seen by a Hibs manager. Of course it would have made a difference, an inspiration v a young player floundering all over the place.

[Key West]

Ross had to try something different today and he didn't. Daz starting would have been a change from the previous failures v Saints. I fully believe Daz would have made a difference today - Kane had a ****in field day, Porteous was all over the place, including in the run up to the goal.

McGregor was the best player on the pitch in our last 2 games keeping clean sheets v Abdn and Celtc. Absolutely crazy not to start him.

I'm a fan of McGregor and as you say he played well against Aberdeen and Celtic but the clean sheets were as much down to poor finishing from the opposition.

[h1bs4life]

McGregor at least would have showed a bit of leadership and determination
he should have started with either Porteuos or Hanlon , Newell should have been nowhere near the starting 11.
Everyone new how St Johnstone would set up incredibly we set up the same as we have done all season against them and never laid a glove on them.
At least with McGregor and even Hallberg for Newell it would like we at least tried to change things wether it would have made a difference who knows .
Playing Newell who wants to go either side ways or back gave St Johnstone the time to get back into there rigid shape.

[Killiehibbie]

He’d have made a difference if he played in a 3 at the back.

If we’d matched them up then, potentially, we’d have had a centre half fighting with Rooney for that goal, instead of the mis-match of Doig,

Other than that though, Daz wouldn’t have done anything that helped the forward players get the finger out.

Why was Doig v Rooney such a mismatch? There's a one inch height difference.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not sure.

We were edgy and nervy at the back all day. They had a chance, I think it was Kane, that came about because Porteous started to commit, hesitated then dived in and completely sold himself. They also got another chance on the break when he went wandering with the ball and with a 10 yards pass on he tried a world cup ball that was easily intercepted with him 50 yards out of position. I think it was Gogic who made a last gasp tackle to bail him out. I'm not sure Daz makes those mistakes but then I'm not sure that edginess at the back was responsible for our defeat. Did it spread through the team? Does it matter?

For me the game was lost in midfield. We weren't only outfought, we were outplayed as well. Everything St Johnstone done quickly was in complete contrast to our half turn, look up, take a step forward, stop then make 5 passes to move the ball 3 yards backwards. I have no issue with retaining possession or knocking the ball about but it has to have a purpose.

I think we lost the game yesterday because of that lack of purpose in midfield. Our moving the ball was totally ineffective at dragging a disciplined side out of position and creating space. They allowed us to play in front of them because they knew we were ponderous and allowed them to regroup.

I don't think McGregor changes that.

[JohnM1875]

Daz would have made a difference. Of course he would have. He's a better defender than Porteous and should have started.

[Sammy7nil]

Daz would have made a difference. Of course he would have. He's a better defender than Porteous and should have started.

What did Porteous do wrong ?

[B.H.F.C]

I'm not sure.

We were edgy and nervy at the back all day. They had a chance, I think it was Kane, that came about because Porteous started to commit, hesitated then dived in and completely sold himself. They also got another chance on the break when he went wandering with the ball and with a 10 yards pass on he tried a world cup ball that was easily intercepted with him 50 yards out of position. I think it was Gogic who made a last gasp tackle to bail him out. I'm not sure Daz makes those mistakes but then I'm not sure that edginess at the back was responsible for our defeat. Did it spread through the team? Does it matter?

For me the game was lost in midfield. We weren't only outfought, we were outplayed as well. Everything St Johnstone done quickly was in complete contrast to our half turn, look up, take a step forward, stop then make 5 passes to move the ball 3 yards backwards. I have no issue with retaining possession or knocking the ball about but it has to have a purpose.

I think we lost the game yesterday because of that lack of purpose in midfield. Our moving the ball was totally ineffective at dragging a disciplined side out of position and creating space. They allowed us to play in front of them because they knew we were ponderous and allowed them to regroup.

I don't think McGregor changes that.

On that lack of purpose in midfield, there was one in the first half when the ball got played in to Newell in the middle of the park. Had loads of room just to turn and carry the ball forward but opted for a first time pass back to the goalie. Newell passing the ball back the way isn’t any real surprise but St Johnstone must have loved seeing that kind of thing.

[MWHIBBIES]

Does anyone think our 6 foot 7 Keeper....thats 2m and nearly 9 feet without jumping with hands up....could have maybe influenced that more?....just interested caused ive watched the cross a few times now

No. Doig is 6 ft 2, just **** defending from him and the 3 who let the cross in

[MWHIBBIES]

What did Porteous do wrong ?

Quite a few things. He was generally rubbish. Didn't win a challenge, got bullied by Kane and at fault for penalty

[JohnM1875]

What did Porteous do wrong ?

Was well out of position, as he often is, when Kane had a glorious chance first 15 minute then smashed the ball off Gogic back with yet another wayward pass, as he often does.

The boy is clearly talented. I'm not saying he's not. And he'll definitely learn and get better. But as it stands Daz is a better defender just now and should have started.

[easty]

Why was Doig v Rooney such a mismatch? There's a one inch height difference.

Cos he’s got a standing start, and Rooney has a run onto it and about 3 stone on him.

What could he have done?

[Hiber-nation]

What did Porteous do wrong ?

Seriously? He set the tone by making 4 mistakes on the trot in the first 20 minutes. Like the semi, I felt sorry for him, he should never have been put in that position considering how out of form he is.

[Killiehibbie]

Cos he’s got a standing start, and Rooney has a run onto it and about 3 stone on him.

What could he have done?

Jumping for start. Some sort of challenge. How often do defenders do enough to put strikers off and make them miss

[danhibees1875]

Jumping for start. Some sort of challenge. How often do defenders do enough to put strikers off and make them miss

He does jump, Rooney just gets the better of him coming from behind and it's a good ball in - I'm not sure there's much more Doig can do there.

Gogic was the problem IMO - no idea what he's thinking and allows wotherspoon all the time in the world to put the perfect cross in for Rooney.

[Hiber-nation]

He does jump, Rooney just gets the better of him coming from behind and it's a good ball in - I'm not sure there's much more Doig can do there.

Gogic was the problem IMO - no idea what he's thinking and allows wotherspoon all the time in the world to put the perfect cross in for Rooney.

Yep, said this yesterday, Gogic's part in the goal was schoolboy stuff. At a push you could say McGinn was a bit unlucky, Boyle's job isn't to tackle and Doig was up against a real threat in the air. But what Gogic did would have been a joke at Sunday league level.

[danhibees1875]

Yep, said this yesterday, Gogic's part in the goal was schoolboy stuff. At a push you could say McGinn was a bit unlucky, Boyle's job isn't to tackle and Doig was up against a real threat in the air. But what Gogic did would have been a joke at Sunday league level.

It's a cliché and it's the sort of thing I'd roll my eyes at but I genuinely couldn't imagine another team doing that against Hibs. Leaping out of the way like that was comical seeing it back.

Booth's desire to win those 50/50s was spot on. I actually think McGinn done all he could there but was just bettered by Booth/the break of the ball after.

[easty]

Jumping for start. Some sort of challenge. How often do defenders do enough to put strikers off and make them miss

He did jump.

We’d never have asked Doig to mark Rooney at a corner of free kick, cos it’s a mismatch. An obvious one.

I’d have loved to have seen Doig win that header, but I just can’t blame him, at all, for it.

[BoomtownHibees]

He did jump.

We’d never have asked Doig to mark Rooney at a corner of free kick, cos it’s a mismatch. An obvious one.

I’d have loved to have seen Doig win that header, but I just can’t blame him, at all, for it.

Not sure it’s an “obvious mismatch” with only 5cm of a height difference however I agree that there wasn’t much else he could have done at the goal

[easty]

Not sure it’s an “obvious mismatch” with only 5cm of a height difference however I agree that there wasn’t much else he could have done at the goal

Its not just about height. 2 players at the same height aren’t necessarily equally as good in the air.

Rooney is an aerial threat, it’s probably his best attribute. Doig is a young athletic full back, who’s fairly lightweight. It’s a complete mismatch for a header.

[my left peg]

Does anyone think our 6 foot 7 Keeper....thats 2m and nearly 9 feet without jumping with hands up....could have maybe influenced that more?....just interested caused ive watched the cross a few times now

No I don’t think so.
The quality of the cross from Wotherspoon took the goalie out of the equation.
Boyle ,McGinn,Gogic ,Doig and the two centre half’s that we’re ball watching were all culpable.


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[SMAXXA]

No he wouldn’t

[calumhibee1]

Its not just about height. 2 players at the same height aren’t necessarily equally as good in the air.

Rooney is an aerial threat, it’s probably his best attribute. Doig is a young athletic full back, who’s fairly lightweight. It’s a complete mismatch for a header.

:agree:

[easty]

No I don’t think so.
The quality of the cross from Wotherspoon took the goalie out of the equation.
Boyle ,McGinn,Gogic ,Doig and the two centre half’s that we’re ball watching were all culpable.


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Was a good cross, but it’s a cross you’d expect him to be able to make 99 times out of a hundred with the amount of time we have him.

He always cuts back onto his right. Gogic looked like an idiot.

[JimBHibees]

What did Porteous do wrong ?

Gifted the ball for the penalty for one. Huge mistake in the context of a tight game.

[147lothian]

No

[CMurdoch]

McGregor would only have made a difference by being played in the centre of a 3 with Porteous and Hanlon either side of him.
It's what I had hoped for but it didn't happen.
It was daft repeating our shape from the previous unsuccessful games against St Johnstone.
The match up 3-5-2 might not have looked good but I don't think they would have scored against it.

[jamesjamieson]

McGregor with either Hanlon or Porteous would have made a difference. Like when Sauzee stepped on the park in a Hibs shirt, you just felt more confident. McGregor is not Sauzee, of course, but he is an experienced player - and a winner - in form and would have been our only natural leader on the park (as many others have said).

[Stuarty1875]

Don’t think so. We lost the game in midfield as we were unable to create anything.

[easty]

McGregor with either Hanlon or Porteous would have made a difference. Like when Sauzee stepped on the park in a Hibs shirt, you just felt more confident. McGregor is not Sauzee, of course, but he is an experienced player - and a winner - in form and would have been our only natural leader on the park (as many others have said).

I love Darren McGregor. I love the kind of defender he is, and at his peak he was great for us.

This “natural leader” stuff that gets bandied around every time we have a bad result does my head in though. I’ve seen us lose plenty games with “natural leaders” McGregor and Gray on the pitch. Plenty.

I love the determination they bring, but it’s never consistently meant the team were always up for it. We lost as many games with them as we do without.

The league cup final we lost to Ross County. We had McGregor and Gray and McGinn and Bartley. We lost that game. To a team worse than the St Johnstone one that beat us yesterday.

[Since90+2]

There are certain games that you need a natural leader on the park and yesterday was one of them. We just seemed so flat despite it being a Scottish cup final.

Would Darren have made a difference? It's a question we'll never know the answer to but you know what he is going to offer.

[Dr What If?]

For me yes, we really needed his experience. Ryan is a cracking player, is probably the better footballer and definitely has more potential but this was a cup final. For me Doig's nerves showed (he's still just a kid), he needed a Daz on the pitch.
That said it was in midfield we lost that match, strikers never got a sniff and Boyle (our go to guy) was actually really poor....I just cant understand what I saw from him yesterday. He will be off, so will Nisbet and Irvine though.....I hope Ryan stays and gets that experience with us.

[snedzuk]

I love Darren McGregor. I love the kind of defender he is, and at his peak he was great for us.

This “natural leader” stuff that gets bandied around every time we have a bad result does my head in though. I’ve seen us lose plenty games with “natural leaders” McGregor and Gray on the pitch. Plenty.

I love the determination they bring, but it’s never consistently meant the team were always up for it. We lost as many games with them as we do without.

The league cup final we lost to Ross County. We had McGregor and Gray and McGinn and Bartley. We lost that game. To a team worse than the St Johnstone one that beat us yesterday.

But we were relegated on merit and lost the Ross County final to a team in the division above us - not one 15 or so points below us.

[147lothian]

Don’t think so. We lost the game in midfield as we were unable to create anything.


:top marksPorteous can be blamed for many things, but its not really his fault that the game was lost in midfield.

[easty]

But we were relegated on merit and lost the Ross County final to a team in the division above us - not one 15 or so points below us.

The Hibs team that day was better than the Hibs team yesterday. The St Johnstone team yesterday was better than the Ross Co team then.

[Lancs Harp]

The Hibs team that day was better than the Hibs team yesterday. The St Johnstone team yesterday was better than the Ross Co team then.

Thought we were bl00dy unlucky to lose that game to Ross County the best team always wins obviously , thats what its all about, but I thought we dominated that game.

The 2015/16 team was a championship team and failed to get promotion but I would say that team is better than our current one, certainly played far more entertaining football.

[truehibernian]

Thought we were bl00dy unlucky to lose that game to Ross County the best team always wins obviously , thats what its all about, but I thought we dominated that game.

The 2015/16 team was a championship team and failed to get promotion but I would say that team is better than our current one, certainly played far more entertaining football.

The common denominator being a very balanced, skilful midfield. Arguably one of the best in the country at the time.

As an ex-midfielder you simply have to get that area of the pitch right, and to rely on counter-attack football and be prepared to give up possession is a dangerous game to play. Our midfield slows the game down far too much and I am seriously hoping Jack has noted that and is prepared to be more adventurous and sign two players that can collect the ball and drive forward. Lost count yesterday the amount of times we had opportunities to drive through space in the middle but chose the safe option of playing square and allowing Saints to simply re-group and keep their lines solid.

[The Harp Awakes]

McGregor would only have made a difference by being played in the centre of a 3 with Porteous and Hanlon either side of him.
It's what I had hoped for but it didn't happen.
It was daft repeating our shape from the previous unsuccessful games against St Johnstone.
The match up 3-5-2 might not have looked good but I don't think they would have scored against it.

Wanted the same formation with Daz in the team. St Johnstone are a big physical team and having 3 centre backs in a 3-5-2 would have gone some way to nullifying their offensive threat.

I think Daz's presence would also have made Hanlon an Porteous more comfortable.

As many others have said, Ross had to change something yesterday, either personnel, tactics, formation and arguably all 3. He changed nothing and it's no surprise to anyone that the game went the same way as previous games against St Johnstone.

What was a surprise is how 10 outfield players can be so listless and passive in such a big game. They had no belief which is the most worrying thing for me. Something not right in the preparation?