Palestine

[stokesmessiah]

Sorry if I have missed it, surprised I can’t see a thread on the current trouble over there.

I notice that the US seem to be side stepping doing anything about it or really answering any questions. As usual the language used when reporting it is always skewed in 1 direction - the BBC reporting today that Israel was under attack.

It’s a disgusting situation but for some reason seems to be picking up more global attention this time? Who knows how it will all end.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

It’s abhorrent. I don’t really feel qualified to comment as it deep rooted and complex.

I don’t understand occupation and deliberate building on Arab land. Or storming Holy places.

Too much bloodshed - I don’t ever see an end to this.

The Beeb is in some cases unfortunately less than impartial - you simply need to ask people with family in the likes of South America, China, Middle East to see that things can be views through a particular prism. “Reports” of rumoured Mad Cow disease in Brazil for example was as a result of Mexico/US/Canada acting as a block banning import of Brasilian beef as a direct response to Embraer developing a lighter efficient plane in direct competition to a Canadian product - but we didn’t get that side of the story... reports from China can be variable too according to a mate who’s married to a Chinese National.

[AugustaHibs]

Quite remarkable the little coverage this seems to get from the media.

[Hibrandenburg]

Quite remarkable the little coverage this seems to get from the media.

It's all over the media, it's the pro Israeli bias that is remarkable.

[AugustaHibs]

It's all over the media, it's the pro Israeli bias that is remarkable.

Sorry, that’s what I meant.

The way that it’s being painted makes it seem like it isn’t some mass genocide essentially

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry, that’s what I meant.

The way that it’s being painted makes it seem like it isn’t some mass genocide essentially

👍

[Hibernia&Alba]

One of my heroes, Professor Norman Finkelstein, Jewish son of two Holocaust survivors and one of the pre-eminent scholars on the Arab-Israeli conflict. His books are excellent, for those interested in learning more, but they probably aren't suitable for those looking for a basic introduction. He is a champion of the Palestinian cause and speaks out fearlessly, despite being the victim of right wing cancel culture of the pro-Israel lobby in America, including a campaign that got him stripped of his university tenure.

This a podcast with Katie Halper from a couple of days ago which examines the current, and latest, escalation of hostilities. If you do have time to spare an hour-and-a-half, Finkelstein is always worth hearing.


https://youtu.be/HLVJYmRvvKQ

[Pretty Boy]

There's a bit of chat about the current situation on the Biden thread. As I said there if the upcoming Palestinian elections don't go ahead then it's job done as far as the US and Israel are concerned. Palestinian unity terrifies them.

The media coverage just infuriates me. No doubt the BBC, who I still try to defend from time to time, will tell you they are providing a balanced picture. It's 'balance' without anything resembling context though.

[hibsbollah]

I’m actually sick of talking about it, what’s the point? The news media is stage managed, and the current political environment is such that criticising Israel isn’t possible for politicians in public life.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

BTS is an organisation of Israeli Defence Force veterans who campaign and raise awareness about the reality of what soldiers are being asked to do there on a daily basis. The testimonies are worth watching and reading.

[lord bunberry]

The reason for the lack of proper media coverage is that any criticism of Israel is twisted to being anti Semitic. It’s disgusting what Israel are doing and have been doing for decades.

[Keith_M]

One of my heroes, Professor Norman Finkelstein, Jewish son of two Holocaust survivors and one of the pre-eminent scholars on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

...




We have something in common

:aok:

[Keith_M]

It's all over the media, it's the pro Israeli bias that is remarkable.


I've been watching this on German TV the last couple of days and have to say I've found a stark difference in their reporting, which seems pretty even-handed when compared to that of the UK and (especially) the US.

The problem is that the media in certain counties is so afraid to upset the pro-Israel lobby that it's difficult to know what's really happening.

[Killiehibbie]

How has a 73 year old country managed to cause so much trouble?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Al Jazeera is where to watch.
Although slightly bias towards the plight of those in Gaza, it's coverage is (for want of a better word) superior.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The reason for the lack of proper media coverage is that any criticism of Israel is twisted to being anti Semitic. It’s disgusting what Israel are doing and have been doing for decades.

Of course Israel's leaders want to conflate criticism of Israel's policies in the occupied territories with anti-Semitism, in order to silence people. Their strategy is to portray those who oppose a 54 year illegal occupation as motivated by a hatred of Jews, thus delegitimising their criticism of Israeli policy. But there are also critical Jewish voices, including some from within Israel, who can't be glibly labelled in such a way. Finkelstein is one such voice, so the pro-Israel lobby instead tried to silence him by launching a massive campaign against him at his university, which, sadly, proved successful.

[Keith_M]

How has a 73 year old country managed to cause so much trouble?


Because the whole concept behind it, while mostly well intentioned, was totally flawed from the start.

[Hibernia&Alba]

How has a 73 year old country managed to cause so much trouble?


Because the whole concept behind it, while mostly well intentioned, was totally flawed from the start.

Yes. Norman Finkelstein explains the nub of the issue in the video I posted: when Israel was created in 1948, what was then Palestine was only six per cent Jewish. Therefore, the only way create a majority Jewish state on that land was to forcibly remove the extant population. 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and off their land and made refugees. They were denied any right of return. So, from day one you had the seeds of a conflict. His books cover this in far greater detail of course.

[Killiehibbie]

Yes. Norman Finkelstein explains the nub of the issue in the video I posted: when Israel was created in 1948, what was then Palestine was only six per cent Jewish. Therefore, the only way create a majority Jewish state on that land was to forcibly remove the extant population. 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and off their land and made refugees. They were denied any right of return. So, from day one you had the seeds of a conflict. His books cover this in far greater detail of course.

Just watching C4. Some birthday party.

[speedy_gonzales]

Shocking scenes as shown live by the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-57114168

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes. Norman Finkelstein explains the nub of the issue in the video I posted: when Israel was created in 1948, what was then Palestine was only six per cent Jewish. Therefore, the only way create a majority Jewish state on that land was to forcibly remove the extant population. 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and off their land and made refugees. They were denied any right of return. So, from day one you had the seeds of a conflict. His books cover this in far greater detail of course.

I’m not arguing with that and there’s no doubt the Palestinians have been shat on from a great height and not just by the Israelis, by neighbouring Arab states that abandoned them when expedient and even their own leadership who would rather posture with pointlessly futile rocket attacks than make peace.

But ... you can’t just wish away the Jews from Israel. Historically they were forced into exile and persecuted from pillar to post by Romans, all sorts of Europeans and ultimately the Nazi holocaust.

Us in Britain and the Americans bear a heavy responsibility for how things have panned out and we should be at the forefront of getting in there and doing whatever it takes to bring about a peaceful settlement.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m not arguing with that and there’s no doubt the Palestinians have been shat on from a great height and not just by the Israelis, by neighbouring Arab states that abandoned them when expedient and even their own leadership who would rather posture with pointlessly futile rocket attacks than make peace.

But ... you can’t just wish away the Jews from Israel. Historically they were forced into exile and persecuted from pillar to post by Romans, all sorts of Europeans and ultimately the Nazi holocaust.

Us in Britain and the Americans bear a heavy responsibility for how things have panned out and we should be at the forefront of getting in there and doing whatever it takes to bring about a peaceful settlement.

Nobody who is serious wants to wish Israel away. The Arab League states have unanimously supported a two state solution since, I think, 1978; several decades in any case. To this day Israel has never accepted the principle of an independent Palestinian state; it has never made an official declaration of acceptance. They have illegally occupied Gaza, the West Bank, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem for 54 years now. What's more, they have attempted to make that occupation permanent by illegally building there. So, whilst every Israeli government talks of a settlement, they simultaneously entrench and expand an occupation. A permanent peace via a two state solution (which almost everyone wants) requires good faith on both sides.

[lord bunberry]

Shocking scenes as shown live by the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-57114168
Wow how many people were living in those buildings? That was like the twin towers, but it doesn’t matter because it was in Palestine.

[Ozyhibby]

Wow how many people were living in those buildings? That was like the twin towers, but it doesn’t matter because it was in Palestine.

I think the isreali’s give them an hours notice of what building is being hit. Not sure if that makes it better or worse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

Al Jazeera is where to watch.
Although slightly bias towards the plight of those in Gaza, it's coverage is (for want of a better word) superior.


i watch Al jazeera for news in the UK

[Hibrandenburg]

Wow how many people were living in those buildings? That was like the twin towers, but it doesn’t matter because it was in Palestine.

That's a ****ing excellent point. There has to be a powerful meme in that.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://youtu.be/em9y96S9rK4

[hibsbollah]

https://youtu.be/em9y96S9rK4

But by expressing that particular opinion, that the state of Israel is an apartheid state and a racist state, he is in breach of the Board of deputies agreed definition of anti semitism. Just as well he’s Irish really, a country where apparently they get freedom of expression and thought.

[matty_f]

But by expressing that particular opinion, that the state of Israel is an apartheid state and a racist state, he is in breach of the Board of deputies agreed definition of anti semitism. Just as well he’s Irish really, a country where apparently they get freedom of expression and thought.

I really struggle to get my head around this whole issue of anti-semitism when it comes to Israel. How can you get to the stage where criticising some absolutely abhorrent actions from a country is considered anti-semitic?

[speedy_gonzales]

I really struggle to get my head around this whole issue of anti-semitism when it comes to Israel. How can you get to the stage where criticising some absolutely abhorrent actions from a country is considered anti-semitic?

Personally in my unqualified opinion, this isn't anti-Semitism but rather anti-zionism.
Since the concept of the State of Israel began, there have been Jewish people throughout Europe & America who were against the Zionist movement as it allowed some states to "encourage" the Jewish people to go back "home".
Basically, being anti Israel does not mean your anti Jew.

[CloudSquall]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUBQ6WNBRS4

Imagine waking up one day and finding some fat **** New Yorker in your garden trying to steal the land(4min 35sec in).

[Mr Grieves]

https://twitter.com/LinahAlsaafin/status/1393524934861856769?s=19

WTF :confused:

[Future17]

https://twitter.com/LinahAlsaafin/status/1393524934861856769?s=19

WTF :confused:

The IDF has been doing this since the latest violence started.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUBQ6WNBRS4

Imagine waking up one day and finding some fat **** New Yorker in your garden trying to steal the land(4min 35sec in).

Good wee video ta

[Future17]

Confirmed that the building housing Al-Jazeera and Associated Press offices was hit and has collapsed.

[Santa Cruz]

Good wee video ta

It really was. I was unaware of the history prior to the end of WW2.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Norman Finkelstein did a second podcast with Katie Halper last night. This time he discusses the realties of daily life in Gaza, particularly since the Israeli blockade began in 2006.


https://youtu.be/-PTtsugw9pE

[hibsbollah]

I suppose it’s a bit off the direct topic but

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-time-we-stopped-pandering-to-travellers-2slbdvbvp

I think it’s very interesting what public discourse is acceptable and what isn’t. The above link is offensive and in my opinion really dangerous; it is however published in England’s most celebrated ‘quality’ daily news items, written by a darling of the Radio 4 airwaves and a popular intellectual. This is genuine ‘political correctness’; you can say this stuff about the travelling community but imagine substituting another ethnic group, such as the Jewish community or the black community or Irish community?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Cardonald, the weeg

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/186515206_928111477975686_5616192547765793119_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vPDcaH1FalUAX-sK669&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=816aad3d70f2ecf19eb09cd45ff70a54&oe=60C683DC


probably some delinquent 40+ year old under safety of Darkness, or the safety of a group of delinquent chums, either way how brave of the coward/s wanting to fight a woman

[Hibernia&Alba]

Cardonald, the weeg

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/186515206_928111477975686_5616192547765793119_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vPDcaH1FalUAX-sK669&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=816aad3d70f2ecf19eb09cd45ff70a54&oe=60C683DC


probably some delinquent 40+ year old under safety of Darkness, or the safety of a group of delinquent chums, either way how brave of the coward/s wanting to fight a woman

Aye, wipe out a place where 70 per cent of the people are refugees and 60 per cent are children. Evil.

[EI255]

Was in town today and saw a few Palestinian demonstrators at the west end. Some erse in a taxi mouthed off at one of them and the demonstrator bolted after the taxi. Not sure if he caught up, but the lad in the taxi was gonna get it!

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[blaikie]

Cardonald, the weeg

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/186515206_928111477975686_5616192547765793119_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vPDcaH1FalUAX-sK669&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=816aad3d70f2ecf19eb09cd45ff70a54&oe=60C683DC


probably some delinquent 40+ year old under safety of Darkness, or the safety of a group of delinquent chums, either way how brave of the coward/s wanting to fight a woman

That’s sad, I was actually brought up in Cardonald and for an area which is in close proximity to Ibrox .. it’s a relatively tame part of the city which doesn’t lean either way. I understand it was on the wall for less than 12 hours before a group of locals painted over it!

[Killiehibbie]

Yes. Norman Finkelstein explains the nub of the issue in the video I posted: when Israel was created in 1948, what was then Palestine was only six per cent Jewish. Therefore, the only way create a majority Jewish state on that land was to forcibly remove the extant population. 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and off their land and made refugees. They were denied any right of return. So, from day one you had the seeds of a conflict. His books cover this in far greater detail of course.

India one year then Israel the next. You have to wonder if they actually thought it through or did but just didn't care?

[The_Exile]

Horrendous stuff all over twitter, reddit etc of what's going on just now in Gaza. Women raped, Palestinian children shot point blank in the head. They're doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them...... and the world just sits and watches. Humanity sickens me, yet we will never change in my lifetime.

[blaikie]

Horrendous stuff all over twitter, reddit etc of what's going on just now in Gaza. Women raped, Palestinian children shot point blank in the head. They're doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them...... and the world just sits and watches. Humanity sickens me, yet we will never change in my lifetime.

While the Arab world softens their stance to Israel, here in UAE we have 2/3 daily flights to Israel .. something that would have been completely alien only 12 months ago.

I really can’t see how this ends in my lifetime either.

[ballengeich]

Horrendous stuff all over twitter, reddit etc of what's going on just now in Gaza. Women raped, Palestinian children shot point blank in the head. They're doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them...... and the world just sits and watches. Humanity sickens me, yet we will never change in my lifetime.
So far as we know there are no Israeli ground forces in Gaza (yet) so it sounds like propaganda.

[Hibernia&Alba]

We need more politicians like this Irish TD:


https://youtu.be/zNUp3hGEPHk

[Crunchie]

Horrendous stuff all over twitter, reddit etc of what's going on just now in Gaza. Women raped, Palestinian children shot point blank in the head. They're doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them...... and the world just sits and watches. Humanity sickens me, yet we will never change in my lifetime.
Who's being shot in the head and raped? and who's allegedly doing it?

[The_Exile]

So far as we know there are no Israeli ground forces in Gaza (yet) so it sounds like propaganda.

Apologies, these are reports coming out of the West Bank, not Gaza. I mistakenly put Gaza in my post.

[JimBHibees]

We need more politicians like this Irish TD:


https://youtu.be/zNUp3hGEPHk

That is simply a fantastic rant.

[Killiehibbie]

We need more politicians like this Irish TD:


https://youtu.be/zNUp3hGEPHk

I reckon it would've been better if he'd let him respond.

[ballengeich]

Yes. Norman Finkelstein explains the nub of the issue in the video I posted: when Israel was created in 1948, what was then Palestine was only six per cent Jewish. Therefore, the only way create a majority Jewish state on that land was to forcibly remove the extant population. 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and off their land and made refugees. They were denied any right of return. So, from day one you had the seeds of a conflict. His books cover this in far greater detail of course.
Have you any sources to back up the six per cent figure for 1948? Anything I've seen puts the Jewish population at over one third.

Have you any sources to back up the 750.000 forced out of their homes? Given the total population of around two million in Palestine in 1948 the number looks excessive, particularly given the large non-Jewish element of Israel's population from its inception.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Have you any sources to back up the six per cent figure for 1948? Anything I've seen puts the Jewish population at over one third.

Have you any sources to back up the 750.000 forced out of their homes? Given the total population of around two million in Palestine in 1948 the number looks excessive, particularly given the large non-Jewish element of Israel's population from its inception.

Yes I have sources. Two important ones: Finkelstein's book 'Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict' (1995), and Ilan Pappe's 'Ten Myths About Israel' (2017) are two books, both impeccably researched and with full scholarly references, which discuss the historiography of the creation of Israel and its pre-history. Both books made were researched with Israeli state archives. Both scholars are Jewish and cannot be accused of any anti-Semitic agenda. The six per cent figure relates to Palestine pre-Israel. The one-third figure you use may refer to the area that is Israel today? Please confirm. Even if we accept the one-third figure within contemporary Israel, how did that then become a majority Jewish state after 1948? The 750,000 refugees is also well documented, including by the United Nations.

[hibsbollah]

Arsenals Mo Elneny having meetings with his club after Board of Deputies writes to Arsenal to complain about a tweet he made as the death toll on Palestine climbs to over 200. Sponsor Lavazza coffee also complains, emphasising in a statement that the company is committed to being against ‘racism and anti semitism’.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/arsenal-mohamed-elneny-palestine-sponsor-backlash

Elnenys tweet? “My heart and my soul and my support for you Palestine."

This is where we’re at.

[bigwheel]

Arsenals Mo Elneny having meetings with his club after Board of Deputies writes to Arsenal to complain about a tweet he made as the death toll on Palestine climbs to over 200. Sponsor Lavazza coffee also complains, emphasising in a statement that the company is committed to being against ‘racism and anti semitism’.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/arsenal-mohamed-elneny-palestine-sponsor-backlash

Elnenys tweet? “My heart and my soul and my support for you Palestine."

This is where we’re at.

It’s a shocker that...it seems that any support that isn’t actively pro Israel is somehow seen as anti-Semitic ...the right really run the Israeli agenda with some force.

Since the zionists in Israel killed Rabin and installed netanyahu this has been a consistent theme ..

[hibsbollah]

Have you any sources to back up the six per cent figure for 1948? Anything I've seen puts the Jewish population at over one third.

Have you any sources to back up the 750.000 forced out of their homes? Given the total population of around two million in Palestine in 1948 the number looks excessive, particularly given the large non-Jewish element of Israel's population from its inception.

In 1918 census has population as 56,000 Jews among a 750,000 population. That’s about 6%, albeit from thirty years previously. From Peter Mansfield’s book The Arabs, referencing a British Census of that year.

The 750,000 figure is what Wikipedia says, and references four academics.

Coincidentally, there’s a very good long read about the history of the Nakba in the Guardian today by a Jewish academic.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return

[JeMeSouviens]

In 1918 census has population as 56,000 Jews among a 750,000 population. That’s about 6%, albeit from thirty years previously. From Peter Mansfield’s book The Arabs, referencing a British Census of that year.

The 750,000 figure is what Wikipedia says, and references four academics.

Coincidentally, there’s a very good long read about the history of the Nakba in the Guardian today by a Jewish academic.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return

For balance, it might be worth noting that the reason there were so few Jews in Israel in 1918 was that they were effectively ethnically cleansed and/or genocidally slaughtered by various invaders over centuries culminating in the Crusades which all but wiped them out. Ironically, their best periods pre-20th century came under Islamic rule.

Anyway, the Zionist movement to resettle in Israel got going in late 19th century due to persecution, pogroms etc in Europe but really kicked off following Britain's "Balfour declaration" which was part of a charm offensive to encourage the US to get fully involved in the first world war. The BD encouraged Jews to come to Palestine where a homeland would be set up for them and hundreds of thousands arrived in the 20s and 30s.

Palestinians are collateral damage in the usual post-colonial great powers ****show.

[hibsbollah]

Ironically, their best periods pre-20th century came under Islamic rule.

Anyway, the Zionist movement to resettle in Israel got going in late 19th century due to persecution, pogroms etc in Europe but really kicked off following Britain's "Balfour declaration" which was part of a charm offensive to encourage the US to get fully involved in the first world war. The BD encouraged Jews to come to Palestine where a homeland would be set up for them and hundreds of thousands arrived in the 20s and 30s.

Palestinians are collateral damage in the usual post-colonial great powers ****show.

That’s very true, I was reading about the high levels of religious tolerance and harmony between Jews and Muslims in Islamic countries from medieval times, in contrast to crusades, inquisitions and pogroms that they suffered from Christian states. Ironic as you say.

[norhfc]

I spent a little time in Ashkelon which is near Gaza back in the late 80,s. The town is famous for rocket attacks as its the closest Israeli town to Gaza. I remember very well the bus loads of Palestinians being bussed into the surrounding area every morning and bussed back to Gaza in the evening. They where workers for the nearby farms, they had army jeeps as escorts and where not allowed into Israel unless in these work convoys. I heard quite a few years ago they stopped using Palestinians for the manual work so they dont even get that income any more. I remember the hundreds of buses and the sea of faces, they where very proud looking people with their head dresses on. I left Israel vowing never to go back after I witnessed their treatment of the Palestinians. Plus the fact that everybody carried uzzies, even while out drinking.

[ballengeich]

Yes I have sources. Two important ones: Finkelstein's book 'Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict' (1995), and Ilan Pappe's 'Ten Myths About Israel' (2017) are two books, both impeccably researched and with full scholarly references, which discuss the historiography of the creation of Israel and its pre-history. Both books made were researched with Israeli state archives. Both scholars are Jewish and cannot be accused of any anti-Semitic agenda. The six per cent figure relates to Palestine pre-Israel. The one-third figure you use may refer to the area that is Israel today? Please confirm. Even if we accept the one-third figure within contemporary Israel, how did that then become a majority Jewish state after 1948? The 750,000 refugees is also well documented, including by the United Nations.
I don't think 6% is the 1948 figure. The figure for refugees looks correct.

[He's here!]

Beats me why a militant/terrorist organisation like Hamas are regarded by some as some sort of good guy freedom fighters. They run Gaza like a bunch of gangsters and the humanitarian suffering they are responsible for there is deplorable. They knew fine well that Israel was never going to just sit back and suck up this latest attack and essentially invited the bombardment of Gaza upon themselves. Not only that but a number of their rockets regularly fall short of their targets and end up killing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead. For Hamas, Palestinian welfare comes a distant second to their endless obsession with developing rockets powerful enough to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Beats me why a militant/terrorist organisation like Hamas are regarded by some as some sort of good guy freedom fighters. They run Gaza like a bunch of gangsters and the humanitarian suffering they are responsible for there is deplorable. They knew fine well that Israel was never going to just sit back and suck up this latest attack and essentially invited the bombardment of Gaza upon themselves. Not only that but a number of their rockets regularly fall short of their targets and end up killing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead. For Hamas, Palestinian welfare comes a distant second to their endless obsession with developing rockets powerful enough to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Is this some kind of sick ******* joke? Talk about lack of nuance and context. How dare you type such rubbish!

[Betty Boop]

Beats me why a militant/terrorist organisation like Hamas are regarded by some as some sort of good guy freedom fighters. They run Gaza like a bunch of gangsters and the humanitarian suffering they are responsible for there is deplorable. They knew fine well that Israel was never going to just sit back and suck up this latest attack and essentially invited the bombardment of Gaza upon themselves. Not only that but a number of their rockets regularly fall short of their targets and end up killing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead. For Hamas, Palestinian welfare comes a distant second to their endless obsession with developing rockets powerful enough to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
Hasbara.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Beats me why a militant/terrorist organisation like Hamas are regarded by some as some sort of good guy freedom fighters. They run Gaza like a bunch of gangsters and the humanitarian suffering they are responsible for there is deplorable. They knew fine well that Israel was never going to just sit back and suck up this latest attack and essentially invited the bombardment of Gaza upon themselves. Not only that but a number of their rockets regularly fall short of their targets and end up killing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead. For Hamas, Palestinian welfare comes a distant second to their endless obsession with developing rockets powerful enough to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

true as your description may be, they are a product of their environment.

[Keith_M]

Beats me why a militant/terrorist organisation like Hamas are regarded by some as some sort of good guy freedom fighters. They run Gaza like a bunch of gangsters and the humanitarian suffering they are responsible for there is deplorable. They knew fine well that Israel was never going to just sit back and suck up this latest attack and essentially invited the bombardment of Gaza upon themselves. Not only that but a number of their rockets regularly fall short of their targets and end up killing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip instead. For Hamas, Palestinian welfare comes a distant second to their endless obsession with developing rockets powerful enough to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.


Did you used to post on here under a different username?

I've just read a couple of your posts and they seem eerily familiar.

[Bristolhibby]

Both sides need to recognise the right for the other side to exist.

And they they both have legitimate claims to the land.

Until they recognise that it will continue to go on, tit of tat.

J

[Just Alf]

Both sides need to recognise the right for the other side to exist.

And they they both have legitimate claims to the land.

Until they recognise that it will continue to go on, tit of tat.

J

I know the ship has sailed but I often wonder if Israel had treated Palestine as more of a partner state and helped build it up, if Palestine also had a booming economy then the there'd be less and less youngsters growing up radicalised and there would be a greater self policing aspect as folks would have more to loose...... never gonna happen now though,

[Betty Boop]

I know the ship has sailed but I often wonder if Israel had treated Palestine as more of a partner state and helped build it up, if Palestine also had a booming economy then the there'd be less and less youngsters growing up radicalised and there would be a greater self policing aspect as folks would have more to loose...... never gonna happen now though,
How could they have a booming economy when they've been under occupation for 53 years ?

[hibsbollah]

How could they have a booming economy when they've been under occupation for 53 years ?

:agree: Unfortunately it’s a bit like suggesting it would have been good for the Jews if the Warsaw ghetto had a booming economy. (Whoops-reference to comparisons between Israel and the Holocaust-In breach of that pesky anti semitism guidance again)

[Just Alf]

How could they have a booming economy when they've been under occupation for 53 years ?

That's exactly my point, if they'd been allowed to go on the same journey upwards as Israel has seen then the world would have been a different place, we're so far down the wrong path it'll never recover.

[Ozyhibby]

That's exactly my point, if they'd been allowed to go on the same journey upwards as Israel has seen then the world would have been a different place, we're so far down the wrong path it'll never recover.

Israel’s ‘upward journey’ is at the Palestinians expense. The have stolen all their land and imprisoned them in a tiny corner of it.


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[Just Alf]

Israel’s ‘upward journey’ is at the Palestinians expense. The have stolen all their land and imprisoned them in a tiny corner of it.


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not disagreeing.... Israel many, many years ago were in a position where they could have worked with Palestine, they didn't and here we are.

And to be fair if I was a farmer that's family had farmed a small holding for multiple generations and was then kicked off it because I didn't have a piece of paper 150 years old showing my ownership rights then I'd not be happy no matter what, so the whole thing is an exercise in futility really.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hamas-not-israel-is-to-blame-for-the-latest-bloodshed?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020210519%20%20Facebook%20%2 0SM+CID_d67e1fad97af035e78ccfe641a9d9b10

This is an interesting perspective.

[hibsbollah]

Ceasefire. No need to talk about all this anymore.

[Betty Boop]

Ceasefire. No need to talk about all this anymore.
Ha ha till the next time.

[G B Young]

Ceasefire. No need to talk about all this anymore.

Didn't last long...

[hibsbollah]

I found this story interesting, partly because the media haven’t been reporting on Israel’s incursions into the occupied territories. It needs a death of basically Al Jazeeras version of Clive Myrie to get anything on Israel into the western media these days.

A famous Al Jazeera journalist has been shot dead by an Israeli sniper, while reporting on Israeli incursion into a Palestinian refugee camp.

Shireen Abu Akleh was wearing a helmet and a flak vest clearly labeled ‘PRESS’ when she was shot behind the ear and killed by a member of the Israeli Army for simply doing her job and reporting on the Israeli attacks on the Jenin Refugee camp.

Killing journalists reporting on war is a war crime.

Shireen was not the only journalist targeted - Another Al-Jazeera journalist named Ali Asmoadi was also wounded by a gun shot and is in a stable condition.

Middle East Eye reporter Shatha Hanaysha said she and a group of six journalists, including Abu Akleh, were together when they came under fire by Israeli snipers and that **there was no fighting in the area**.

Israel claim that there was “an exchange of fire between its troops and Palestinian fighters” and that it is investigating whether "journalists were wounded, possibly by Palestinian gunfire." But all those present when Shirren was murdered have confirmed this is a lie and that there had been no fighting in the area where they arrived which is why they chose it.

Which British Politician will be brave enough to condemn this clear war crime, and call for sanctions on Israel and an international criminal court? If this were any other country (except the US), that would be what was happening.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-al-jazeera-journalist-shireen-abu-akleh-shot-dead-jenin

[Ozyhibby]

I found this story interesting, partly because the media haven’t been reporting on Israel’s incursions into the occupied territories. It needs a death of basically Al Jazeeras version of Clive Myrie to get anything on Israel into the western media these days.

A famous Al Jazeera journalist has been shot dead by an Israeli sniper, while reporting on Israeli incursion into a Palestinian refugee camp.

Shireen Abu Akleh was wearing a helmet and a flak vest clearly labeled ‘PRESS’ when she was shot behind the ear and killed by a member of the Israeli Army for simply doing her job and reporting on the Israeli attacks on the Jenin Refugee camp.

Killing journalists reporting on war is a war crime.

Shireen was not the only journalist targeted - Another Al-Jazeera journalist named Ali Asmoadi was also wounded by a gun shot and is in a stable condition.

Middle East Eye reporter Shatha Hanaysha said she and a group of six journalists, including Abu Akleh, were together when they came under fire by Israeli snipers and that **there was no fighting in the area**.

Israel claim that there was “an exchange of fire between its troops and Palestinian fighters” and that it is investigating whether "journalists were wounded, possibly by Palestinian gunfire." But all those present when Shirren was murdered have confirmed this is a lie and that there had been no fighting in the area where they arrived which is why they chose it.

Which British Politician will be brave enough to condemn this clear war crime, and call for sanctions on Israel and an international criminal court? If this were any other country (except the US), that would be what was happening.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-al-jazeera-journalist-shireen-abu-akleh-shot-dead-jenin

Your clearly an anti-Semite.[emoji6]


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[hibsbollah]

Your clearly an anti-Semite.[emoji6]


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It’s unbelievable listening to the interviews with her colleagues. Basically shot her in the face, while she had clear press decals on, with no fighting or crossfire around. Assassinated for being a reporter basically. Then you read the bbc report and it’s all about ‘killed in clashes between….’ and reporting Israeli govt. sources as saying the Palestinians might have done it.

Guardian the usual mealy mouthed headline.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/al-jazeera-journalist-killed-in-west-bank-unrest

[Betty Boop]

It’s unbelievable listening to the interviews with her colleagues. Basically shot her in the face, while she had clear press decals on, with no fighting or crossfire around. Assassinated for being a reporter basically. Then you read the bbc report and it’s all about ‘killed in clashes between….’ and reporting Israeli govt. sources as saying the Palestinians might have done it.

Guardian the usual mealy mouthed headline.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/al-jazeera-journalist-killed-in-west-bank-unrest


Israeli police attack mourners in Abu Akleh's funeral procession in East Jerusalem (aa.com.tr) (https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-police-attack-mourners-in-abu-aklehs-funeral-procession-in-east-jerusalem/2587150#)


Where's the outrage about this ?

[hibsbollah]

Israeli police attack mourners in Abu Akleh's funeral procession in East Jerusalem (aa.com.tr) (https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-police-attack-mourners-in-abu-aklehs-funeral-procession-in-east-jerusalem/2587150#)


Where's the outrage about this ?

Attacking mourners. It’s just unbelievable.
Sultana and Corbyn the only politicians I can see even mentioning it online. Biden’s press Secretary expresses ‘regret’, more than either leader of UKs major party has managed .

[hibsbollah]

Again, I’m labouring the point a bit but the use of language is so revealing ‘violence breaks out at funeral’ ‘her coffin was jostled’ as Israeli police and Palestinians clashed’, according to BBC world service.

[SChibs]

What makes matters worse is the UK sells millions of pounds worth of weapons to Israel every year.

[SChibs]

Again, I’m labouring the point a bit but the use of language is so revealing ‘violence breaks out at funeral’ ‘her coffin was jostled’ as Israeli police and Palestinians clashed’, according to BBC world service.

Theres videos going about of Israeli settlers taking over and essentially stealing Palestinian peoples homes when they are were away at the funeral.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61448311

The UN condemnation was finally agreed by the Security Council, despite the US trying to water down the declaration, quashed by Chinas objections. Human rights selectively applied, as usual.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1528031839964864515

Bellingcat prove Israeli defence force had a clear line of sight, for the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh

[cameronw-hfc]

Theres videos going about of Israeli settlers taking over and essentially stealing Palestinian peoples homes when they are were away at the funeral.

I remember a video a while back of a young Palestinian lady being interviewed about how her Grandad built the house they live in, been the family home since it was built.


There's now a wall up splitting her family home as the Israeli Gov have moved in a Zionist settler without any notice, doing their own work to the house to split it into 2.

The boy that moved in basically said it's his religious right to live there. Horrible horrible stuff

[Stairway 2 7]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/24/middleeast/shireen-abu-akleh-jenin-killing-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

Bellingcat and CNN with great work on Shireen Abu Akleh evidence

[hibsbollah]

Al Jazeera refer Israel to the International Criminal Court today for the murder of Shireen Abu Akleh. Israeli minister calling claims 'total lies'.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/12/18/world-cup-2022-palestine-in-the-spotlight_6008244_4.html

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/12/18/world-cup-2022-palestine-in-the-spotlight_6008244_4.html

But no rainbow flags allowed. FIFA and Qatar picking and choosing what political/social comment can be made in their stadia.

[hibsbollah]

When even the DBBJ speaks out against it, you know there’s something rotten going on in apartheid Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/05/simon-schama-uk-jews-condemn-israel-far-right-violence-palestinians

[superfurryhibby]

When even the DBBJ speaks out against it, you know there’s something rotten going on in apartheid Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/05/simon-schama-uk-jews-condemn-israel-far-right-violence-palestinians

Well done to those speaking out. The hypocrisy of the west is never more starkly outlined when it comes to Palestine and the oppression inflicted on people by the fascist Israeli state.

[Ozyhibby]

Well done to those speaking out. The hypocrisy of the west is never more starkly outlined when it comes to Palestine and the oppression inflicted on people by the fascist Israeli state.

I agree 100%.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Well done to those speaking out. The hypocrisy of the west is never more starkly outlined when it comes to Palestine and the oppression inflicted on people by the fascist Israeli state.


I agree 100%.


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Seconded.

[Stairway 2 7]

Although bellingcat is well known just now for proving Russian war crimes and genocide, it has been uncovering Isreali crimes for a decade. Here some amazing investigation work helping prove the murder of journalists Shireen Abu Akleh by Israeli forces


https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2022/05/14/unravelling-the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh/

[hibsbollah]

Also strongly recommend this site, a group of IDF veterans and their testimonies on what they were asked to do and the things they experienced.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[Stairway 2 7]

Israels right wing government has ramped up the bombings and brutality this month

https://mobile.twitter.com/theIMEU/status/1633141516486180865

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64929563

When you read the proposals Netanyahu is trying to force through it's easy to see why so many Israeli extremists are so keen to censor the 'F word'. It's indisputable that's what it is but no western politician is going to be brave enough to call it out.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64929563

When you read the proposals Netanyahu is trying to force through it's easy to see why so many Israeli extremists are so keen to censor the 'F word'. It's indisputable that's what it is but no western politician is going to be brave enough to call it out.

I sometimes wonder if survivors of other holocausts, whether Cambodian or Armenian or ten million native Americans, would be permitted as much ownership of the public debate about words and terminology about holocausts and words like fascism, as the Israeli state currently enjoys. Or if any criticism of the Cambodian states internal repression could ever be easily passed off as ‘anti Asian racism’ as happens now with Israel and anti semitism.

[Kato]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64929563

When you read the proposals Netanyahu is trying to force through it's easy to see why so many Israeli extremists are so keen to censor the 'F word'. It's indisputable that's what it is but no western politician is going to be brave enough to call it out.As soon as criticism of the Israeli government was deemed anti semitic the game was a bogey.

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[cameronw-hfc]

At this point if you're pro-israel you're either thick as mince or have seriously moral issues. Can't see anyway a decent human can defend this anymore.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

At this point if you're pro-israel you're either thick as mince or have seriously moral issues. Can't see anyway a decent human can defend this anymore.

It’s mental I know, the main defence of Israel in the past few years has been to just outright brand Palestinian resistance fighters as terrorists, whether Hamas or other groups. I’m not saying launching rockets into settlements is a good idea or that it’s okay, but it’s more complex than that. It’s very similar to the rhetoric around the French resistance in the 1940s, no doubt someone will be along to say that comparison is antisemitic though


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[Stairway 2 7]

At this point if you're pro-israel you're either thick as mince or have seriously moral issues. Can't see anyway a decent human can defend this anymore.

Seems to be kicking off in isreal between the Jewish public. Some thankfully disgusted at some of the policies. But as you say the ones backing this are for the watching

[cameronw-hfc]

It’s mental I know, the main defence of Israel in the past few years has been to just outright brand Palestinian resistance fighters as terrorists, whether Hamas or other groups. I’m not saying launching rockets into settlements is a good idea or that it’s okay, but it’s more complex than that. It’s very similar to the rhetoric around the French resistance in the 1940s, no doubt someone will be along to say that comparison is antisemitic though


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It winds me up people use Hamas as a scoring point. Pretty much any group of people subject to what Palestne has had to deal with would end up with a resistance group. I know if I was kept in an open air prison for being born a certain nationality id probably resort to violence, and I think most would, even if they want to pretend they wouldn't.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

It winds me up people use Hamas as a scoring point. Pretty much any group of people subject to what Palestne has had to deal with would end up with a resistance group. I know if I was kept in an open air prison for being born a certain nationality id probably resort to violence, and I think most would, even if they want to pretend they wouldn't.

To be fair Hamas genuinely are very antisemitic


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[hibsbollah]

Nothing to see here, this is all normal
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/21/uk-and-israel-to-sign-deal-strengthening-tech-trade-and-security-ties

[hibsbollah]

Some great photojournalism here. One death many of us knew about, the other just a boy going to school.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2023/mar/21/the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh-what-one-morning-in-the-west-bank-reveals-about-the-occupation

[WhileTheChief..]

At this point if you're pro-israel you're either thick as mince or have seriously moral issues. Can't see anyway a decent human can defend this anymore.

Yeah cause you get to decide right enough!!

Seems to be a few of you on here that want to judge anyone that doesn’t agree with your own point of view.

Im neither thick nor morally bankrupt despite what you or others may feel.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yeah cause you get to decide right enough!!

Seems to be a few of you on here that want to judge anyone that doesn’t agree with your own point of view.

Im neither thick nor morally bankrupt despite what you or others may feel.

I think there needs to be a separation between isreal people, isreal as a nation and this current regime. I think people are taking about the third, this current abhorrent regime.

[Edina Street]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Antiquity

The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed around 720 BCE, when it was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_Empire).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-Broshi_2001_174-24)

I do not want to appear over opinionated, and I deny that I am anti-Semitic, and my opinion on the subject could be skewed by a misunderstanding of history. However according to Wikipedia, The Kingdom of Israel seized as an entity around 2680 years ago. Any humans on planet earth claiming to be direct descendants of Israelites from 2680 years ago and seeking a return to this land due to Judean religious belief at the expense of the current residents is no more preposterous than if those that believe themselves to be directly descended from Saxons that turned up on the shores of Britain around 430AD wanted to return to Saxony at the expense of Germans or Danes. Perhaps if we send the Saxons back to Saxony, then we can bring the Britons from Britanny that were dislodged by the Saxons, back to Britain?

Apologies if my opinion has offended anyone. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But surely after 2680 years Israelites would have been expected to have assimilated in to new societies by now, just like every other peoples that have been defeated and displaced?

[WhileTheChief..]

I think there needs to be a separation between isreal people, isreal as a nation and this current regime. I think people are taking about the third, this current abhorrent regime.

I work beside a guy that has family living in Israel. Listening to his take on things is entirely different to the one sided views we read on here.

Israel bad / Palestine good doesn’t really cut it.

[WhileTheChief..]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Antiquity


I do not want to appear over opinionated, and I deny that I am anti-Semitic, and my opinion on the subject could be skewed by a misunderstanding of history. However according to Wikipedia, The Kingdom of Israel seized as an entity around 2680 years ago. Any humans on planet earth claiming to be direct descendants of Israelites from 2680 years ago and seeking a return to this land due to Judean religious belief at the expense of the current residents is no more preposterous than if those that believe themselves to be directly descended from Saxons that turned up on the shores of Britain around 430AD wanted to return to Saxony at the expense of Germans or Danes. Perhaps if we send the Saxons back to Saxony, then we can bring the Britons from Britanny that were dislodged by the Saxons, back to Britain?

Apologies if my opinion has offended anyone. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But surely after 2680 years Israelites would have been expected to have assimilated in to new societies by now, just like every other peoples that have been defeated and displaced?

I think they were doing fine living in Europe, mixing with others, for well over 2000 years.

Then Hitler came along and changed things.

[Edina Street]

I think they were doing fine living in Europe, mixing with others, for well over 2000 years.

Then Hitler came along and changed things.

I am not 100% certain that Adolf Hitler was the founder of Zionism. I don't think Hitler was even born when the campaign began, and it is my understanding that it was the British mandate that awarded the land to Israel, not the German mandate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Zionism (Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): צִיּוֹנוּתTsiyyonut[tsijoˈnut] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Hebrew) after Zion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion)) is a nationalist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism)[fn 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-3) movement that espouses the establishment of, and support for a homeland for the Jewish people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people) centered in the area roughly corresponding to what is known in Jewish tradition as the Land of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel), which corresponds in other terms to the region of Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)), Canaan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan), or the Holy Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land), on the basis of a long Jewish connection and attachment to that land.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-4)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMotyl2001604-5)[5]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-6)Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in Central (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) and Eastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) as a national revival movement, both in reaction to newer waves of antisemitism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism) and as a response to Haskalah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskalah), or Jewish Enlightenment.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-Shillony2012-7)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-LeVineMossberg2014-8)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-Gelvin2014-9) Soon after this, most leaders of the movement associated the main goal with creating the desired homeland in Palestine, then an area controlled by the Ottoman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-RCohen-10)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-JGelvin-11)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-12)
From 1897 to 1948, the primary goal of the Zionist Movement was to establish the basis for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and thereafter to consolidate it. In a unique variation of the principle of self-determination,[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-13) the Zionist Movement viewed this process as an 'ingathering of exiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gathering_of_Israel)' (kibbutz galuyot) whereby Jews everywhere would have the right to emigrate to historical Palestine, as a haven from persecution, an area which Moses in the Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible) stated was the land of their forefathers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-14) Zionist ideology also included negation of Jewish life in the Diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_of_the_Diaspora).[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-15)[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-16)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#cite_note-17) The Lovers of Zion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovers_of_Zion) united in 1884 and in 1897 the first Zionist congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Zionist_Congress) was organized.

[Stairway 2 7]

I work beside a guy that has family living in Israel. Listening to his take on things is entirely different to the one sided views we read on here.

Israel bad / Palestine good doesn’t really cut it.

He's no subjective or worth listening to if he doesn't admit that this administration isn't far right and guilty of some abhorrent murders.

Neutral sources like bellingcat, the UN and human rights watch do great work in uncovering war crimes and human rights violations

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/27/gaza-apparent-war-crimes-during-may-fighting

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/02/un-experts-say-israel-should-be-held-accountable-acts-domicide

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I work beside a guy that has family living in Israel. Listening to his take on things is entirely different to the one sided views we read on here.

Israel bad / Palestine good doesn’t really cut it.

Of course it doesn’t, an ethno-religious war between a group using Guerrilla tactics and a standing army funded by the dominant superpower at that given moment is never going to be black and white. Running over bairns that are throwing stones with tanks is hardly morally superior to the actions of Hamas or the PLO, is it?


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[WhileTheChief..]

I am not 100% certain that Adolf Hitler was the founder of Zionism. I don't think Hitler was even born when the campaign began, and it is my understanding that it was the British mandate that awarded the land to Israel, not the German mandate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I don’t really see the merit in discussing what Moses thought back then!

[WhileTheChief..]

Of course it doesn’t, an ethno-religious war between a group using Guerrilla tactics and a standing army funded by the dominant superpower at that given moment is never going to be black and white. Running over bairns that are throwing stones with tanks is hardly morally superior to the actions of Hamas or the PLO, is it?


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In fairness, I’d imagine some Israeli residents might have an appropriate come back to this. I don’t.

But it appears you’re only looking to one side of the issue?

[Edina Street]

I don’t really see the merit in discussing what Moses thought back then!

Nor do I. But the national religion of Israel would be Judaism, and Judaists believe every word written in the Old Testament. This begs the question, is religion a problem? I mean, the Zionist movement is built upon Moses and the Old Testament, and the belief that God awarded Israelites the land of Israel. Do you personally believe that God actually did? I personally might be open to the idea that an Egyptian Pharoah such as Ramesses II might have awarded some Canaanite land to them. But I personally do not subscribe to the notion that God did.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

In fairness, I’d imagine some Israeli residents might have an appropriate come back to this. I don’t.

But it appears you’re only looking to one side of the issue?

What other side is there to look to when I’ve effectively said neither side are anywhere near perfect and are responsible for atrocities?


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[WhileTheChief..]

Nor do I. But the national religion of Israel would be Judaism, and Judaists believe every word written in the Old Testament. This begs the question, is religion a problem? I mean, the Zionist movement is built upon Moses and the Old Testament, and the belief that God awarded Israelites the land of Israel. Do you personally believe that God actually did? I personally might be open to the idea that an Egyptian Pharoah such as Ramesses II might have awarded some Canaanite land to them. But I personally do not subscribe to the notion that God did.

Cracking post, love it.

I'll give it some thought but I've never believed in a god and have never been religious.

I'll definitely read up on some of this stuff though :aok:

[hibsbollah]

Netanyahu being wined and dined by Sunak today. Meanwhile…

https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/jewish-unity-is-a-sacred-responsibility-3O9PMDyWqI8jvRY4adOuBx

[cameronw-hfc]

I think there needs to be a separation between isreal people, isreal as a nation and this current regime. I think people are taking about the third, this current abhorrent regime.

Yeah I wasn't talking about Israeli people. I'm one of Rocky's biggest fans on here, nothing against them as people , but to deny or even not realise quite what their regime is doing to Palestine is absurd.

Frankly, I don't care for the 'hamas are bad' argument, aye, they're probably not nice people but they're a product of their environment. Treat people like animals and you get animals.

It's literally a genocide

[Ozyhibby]

Yeah I wasn't talking about Israeli people. I'm one of Rocky's biggest fans on here, nothing against them as people , but to deny or even not realise quite what their regime is doing to Palestine is absurd.

Frankly, I don't care for the 'hamas are bad' argument, aye, they're probably not nice people but they're a product of their environment. Treat people like animals and you get animals.

It's literally a genocide

Not much to disagree with there.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Protests are massive tonight against Netanyahu for firing the defence minister who wanted to halt reforms. Brilliant popular uprising in the making

https://mobile.twitter.com/IdeologyWars/status/1640099169070362624

https://mobile.twitter.com/Istanbultelaviv/status/1640093075828613120

[hibsbollah]

Protests are massive tonight against Netanyahu for firing the defence minister who wanted to halt reforms. Brilliant popular uprising in the making

https://mobile.twitter.com/IdeologyWars/status/1640099169070362624

https://mobile.twitter.com/Istanbultelaviv/status/1640093075828613120

Taking to the streets is the most effective way to enact political change, always.

[silverhibee]

Taking to the streets is the most effective way to enact political change, always.

We really should try it here in the UK to get political change against these criminals running our country.

[Betty Boop]

Israeli forces storm the Al-Aqsa Mosque two nights in a row during Ramadan. The US really needs to stop funding apartheid.

[WhileTheChief..]

British sister aged 20 and 15, shot and killed...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65222234

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

British sister aged 20 and 15, shot and killed...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65222234

Tragic and obviously not what you want to hear… however, for as long as Israel continue to invade Palestinian land to build new settlements, this is going to continue to happen.


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[tamig]

Tragic and obviously not what you want to hear… however, for as long as Israel continue to invade Palestinian land to build new settlements, this is going to continue to happen.


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Exactly. When I first heard about it my first thought was that they shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

[WhileTheChief..]

Exactly. When I first heard about it my first thought was that they shouldn’t have been there in the first place.

This is your first thought when a 15 yo girl has died?

Why shouldn't she have been there? She was with her mum and presumably has zero say in where they live or travel.

15 yo.

It's was a horrendous murder, that nothing can justify.

[tamig]

This is your first thought when a 15 yo girl has died?

Why shouldn't she have been there? She was with her mum and presumably has zero say in where they live or travel.

15 yo.

It's was a horrendous murder, that nothing can justify.

They are living in a place where they shouldn’t be. Simple as that. One of the sisters was 20. I disagree strongly with the occupation of the West Bank. You clearly don’t. So yes, it was my first thought. None of them should be there. Disgraceful.

[Stairway 2 7]

They are living in a place where they shouldn’t be. Simple as that. One of the sisters was 20. I disagree strongly with the occupation of the West Bank. You clearly don’t. So yes, it was my first thought. None of them should be there. Disgraceful.

The first thought should be sorrow for a bairn murdered regardless.

Israel is the aggressor though. The regime is going down a brutal path right now, its disgusting. They should be pressured by the west to stop the expansion and mistreatment of Palestinians. Both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live there now, we are too far gone for anything else.

Things can get better as Northern Ireland shows. The parliament is a mess and some in the older generation want to keep the nonsense going. Increasing the younger generation are fed up of the devision.

Palestinian is a long way from that and isreal is causing it to get worse right now unfortunately

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

This is your first thought when a 15 yo girl has died?

Why shouldn't she have been there? She was with her mum and presumably has zero say in where they live or travel.

15 yo.

It's was a horrendous murder, that nothing can justify.

I don’t know what you really want the Palestinians to do, bend over and allow their homes to be confiscated to build new Israeli settlements? Why?

I’m not saying murdering people is right, but one man’s terrorist and all that


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[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t know what you really want the Palestinians to do, bend over and allow their homes to be confiscated to build new Israeli settlements? Why?

I’m not saying murdering people is right, but one man’s terrorist and all that


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I don't have any answers, and I'm not offering any kind of opinion on the situation at all, other than the tragic loss of these 2 girls lives'.

As this thread was still active on the first page, I thought it was worth highlighting the story as it hadn't been mentioned anywhere else on here.

[WhileTheChief..]

They are living in a place where they shouldn’t be. Simple as that. One of the sisters was 20. I disagree strongly with the occupation of the West Bank. You clearly don’t. So yes, it was my first thought. None of them should be there. Disgraceful.


You're saying anyone living there "that shouldn't be" deserves to die?

Nice.

Hopefully you just typed that post out without too much thought and don't really mean it!

[tamig]

You're saying anyone living there "that shouldn't be" deserves to die?

Nice.

Hopefully you just typed that post out without too much thought and don't really mean it!
You’re making stuff up now. No need. I have sympathy for the girls’ deaths and hope the mother survives. However, if you pitch up on someone else’s land you’re putting yourself at risk. What the Israeli state are doing is disgusting. Until the likes of Netanyahu and his cohorts are gone, this is going on for a while yet.

[DaveF]

I don't have any answers, and I'm not offering any kind of opinion on the situation at all, other than the tragic loss of these 2 girls lives'.

As this thread was still active on the first page, I thought it was worth highlighting the story as it hadn't been mentioned anywhere else on here.

It is tragic. The whole place is.

I assume you have posted previously (I've not checked) offering an opinion on the tragic loss of Palestinians, young an old who have been murdered by Israel or who are about to be in the inevitable retaliation.

[WhileTheChief..]

It is tragic. The whole place is.

I assume you have posted previously (I've not checked) offering an opinion on the tragic loss of Palestinians, young an old who have been murdered by Israel or who are about to be in the inevitable retaliation.

Not sure it matters what my posting history is?

I’m only talking about this one incident. I didn’t think for a second that it would be controversial to highlight it, and I don’t see any merit in trying to apply tit for tat arguments to it.

”They did that, so we did this…” feels a bit lame.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Not sure it matters what my posting history is?

I’m only talking about this one incident. I didn’t think for a second that it would be controversial to highlight it, and I don’t see any merit in trying to apply tit for tat arguments to it.

”They did that, so we did this…” feels a bit lame.

Every war between two different ethnic groups or religions ends up being tit for tat actions. See Ireland for more local context.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Every war between two different ethnic groups or religions ends up being tit for tat actions. See Ireland for more local context.


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Yup, good example of how the violence doesn’t work and that peace can be achieved.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Yup, good example of how the violence doesn’t work and that peace can be achieved.

Peace can’t be achieved while one side continues to aggressively expand into the others territory, flying in the face of international law. Just as Lebensraum was wrong in the 1930s, Israeli expansion into Palestine is wrong now.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Peace can’t be achieved while one side continues to aggressively expand into the others territory, flying in the face of international law. Just as Lebensraum was wrong in the 1930s, Israeli expansion into Palestine is wrong now.


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Agreed. i've never said any differently, ever.

(I don't know anything about Lebensraum so can't comment on that).

[Kato]

(I don't know anything about Lebensraum so can't comment on that).

As someone so firmly on the right don't you think some self education might be a good thing?

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[WhileTheChief..]

As someone so firmly on the right don't you think some self education might be a good thing?

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Eh?

How would I go about learning about somelting that I wasn't even aware of?!

Why you having a go again?

Why not offer up some info and help instead?

I'm not firmly anywhere.

[WhileTheChief..]

As someone so firmly on the right don't you think some self education might be a good thing?

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Unlike yourself, i don't pretend to know about everything.

What a ridiculous response that was from you. I'm happy to stay when I don't know about something, it's helps with learning.

How am I meant to know everything about everything?

[Kato]

Yes. I'm the one being ridiculous. A simple question and you turn into Basil Fawlty.

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[WhileTheChief..]

Yes. I'm the one being ridiculous. A simple question and you turn into Basil Fawlty.

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Stop stalking me on here, you've been doing it for years.

Every time I post in the Holy Ground you're waiting to post some snidey comment. Enough is enough.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Eh?

How would I go about learning about somelting that I wasn't even aware of?!

Why you having a go again?

Why not offer up some info and help instead?

I'm not firmly anywhere.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum


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[Kato]

Stop stalking me on here, you've been doing it for years.

Every time I post in the Holy Ground you're waiting to post some snidey comment. Enough is enough.

Not actually true. I don't think I answer to you any more or any less than anyone else.

The question wasn't snidey.

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[tamig]

Eh?

How would I go about learning about somelting that I wasn't even aware of?!

Why you having a go again?

Why not offer up some info and help instead?

I'm not firmly anywhere.

What a daft response. I assume you have access to the internet as you’re on here? Its a great place to find out about stuff. I see someone has already saved you some typing time though 🙄

[Hibrandenburg]

As someone so firmly on the right don't you think some self education might be a good thing?

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The problem with the new right is they make the same wrong assumptions as the old right because they failed to bother to learn from history. That said, so have the middle and left otherwise they would realise we're on the verge of polarisation again.

[Kato]

The problem with the new right is they make the same wrong assumptions as the old right because they failed to bother to learn from history. That said, so have the middle and left otherwise they would realise we're on the verge of polarisation again.The verge was passed long. We were well down the highway.

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[He's here!]

British sister aged 20 and 15, shot and killed...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65222234

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65227638

Their mother has now also passed away. Horrendous incident.

[Pretty Boy]

Reading the 2 stories below it's increasingly hard to argue against the idea that there is a hard-line group of Israelis seeking to create a racially and/or religiously pure state and there appears to be tacit approval from the government (some might say active encouragement) and the police etc. The decline in the Arab Christian population is something I was unaware of but the figures are quite startling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65289547

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-65204037

[WhileTheChief..]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum


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Thanks. Not something I'd ever heard about before.