Protest at Old Trafford

[AliboyFC]

Big protest happening at Old Trafford. Somehow managed to get on the pitch.

[hibby6270]

Kick off at 4-30 delayed. Both teams still at their hotels. Possible postponement.

[AliboyFC]

Kick off at 4-30 delayed. Both teams still at their hotels. Possible postponement.

I think it will go ahead. The police are clearing away the fans at the moment.

[Key West]

Protesting at the wages their players are on?

[AliboyFC]

Protesting at the wages their players are on?

Nah its a Glazers protest.

[Ringothedog]

Nah its a Glazers protest.

Are Hearts fans protesting about their glass curtain?

[Bostonhibby]

Are Hearts fans protesting about their glass curtain?[emoji23]

Yes, they're really upset that the rest of the world calls them windows.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Phil MaGlass]

Just got a picture from a mate that shows a guy with man u corner flag

[Yorkshire HFC]

Nah its a Glazers protest.

The problem is - who do they want to replace the Glazers?

There aren't many people with a spare £3 billion - and very few of those who do will not be ruthless businessmen who went to the same school as the Glazers.

Noone's going to buy the club then let the fans run it. They'll buy the club and expect a financial return - just like the Glazers do.

All football clubs should be wary of owners who buy the club as an investment - there's no way back.

And I hope Hibs haven't already gone too far down this road.

[AliboyFC]

:confused:
Just got a picture from a mate that shows a guy with man u corner flag

😂

[Hibernia&Alba]

Any violence or vandalism is deplorable, but, as a United fan, I full support the protests, even breaking into the stadium, as a form of direct action. The United fans have tried protests at games etc, some even formed a new club, but the Glazers still hold them in such contempt that they thought they could get away with the breakaway Super League. What do you do when faced with that?

Let's remember Mercer and his proposed merger. All non-violent protest is morally justifiable, in my opinion. You don't just lie down and die. These parasitic owners are actively trying to kill the game, not just their own clubs, for their own enrichment.

[CMurdoch]

Nah its a Glazers protest.

Makes no sense.
The baw was burst as soon as loads of money came into the game in England.
That caused business men and investors to prick up their ears and they bought all the big clubs like the team formerly known as Manchester United.

All that can happen now is the Glazers sell to other blood suckers of a similar ilk so the protest is 20 years too late.
The fans were asleep at the wheel when all this started and now both they and the club they supported are just a massive big cash cow for their players, owners and investors to exploit to the max. Manchester United died a long time ago.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Makes no sense.
The baw was burst as soon as loads of money came into the game in England.
That caused business men and investors to prick up their ears and they bought all the big clubs like the team formerly known as Manchester United.

All that can happen now is the Glazers sell to other blood suckers of a similar ilk so the protest is 20 years too late.
The fans were asleep at the wheel when all this started and now both they and the club they supported are just a massive big cash cow for their players, owners and investors to exploit to the max. Manchester United died a long time ago.

It does make sense. United fans have been stridently anti-Glazer for fifteen years, but what do the American billionaires care, provided they are making money? Some fans even set up FC United, others have campaigned tirelessly to get the Glazers out. Give us the solution then....

It's easy for you to pronounce the death of another club, but what would you do, if it was Hibs? What would you have been prepared to do to stop Wallace Mercer?

Supposing our new American owner was just like the Glazers, what would you do? He isn't a Hibs fan. Are Hibs now dead?

[HH81]

Match off.

[AliboyFC]

Game has been postponed

[lord bunberry]

Surely Liverpool will be awarded the points.

[AliboyFC]

Surely Liverpool will be awarded the points.

I think they are planning a date to play another time.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Surely Liverpool will be awarded the points.


A price worth paying. I hope they get every home game abandoned until the Glazers are forced out.

[nonshinyfinish]

Makes no sense.
The baw was burst as soon as loads of money came into the game in England.
That caused business men and investors to prick up their ears and they bought all the big clubs like the team formerly known as Manchester United.

All that can happen now is the Glazers sell to other blood suckers of a similar ilk so the protest is 20 years too late.
The fans were asleep at the wheel when all this started and now both they and the club they supported are just a massive big cash cow for their players, owners and investors to exploit to the max. Manchester United died a long time ago.

Not sure I follow this logic. Firstly, there were widespread fan protests when the Glazers took over, the whole 'green and gold' thing.

Secondly, even for fans who didn't protest back then, so what? Are you saying you get one chance and that's it? You can't change your mind about whether protest is necessary, or have your mind changed by events? It's pretty obviously that the issues with the Glazers have been crystallised by the super league stuff. That's often how these things go - there's a long-running, low-level dissatisfaction, but it needs something more major to create critical mass for a protest.

[lord bunberry]

I think they are planning a date to play another time.
If that had been a smaller clubs fans that stopped a game going ahead they’d award the away team a 3-0 victory.

[The Modfather]

I reckon it’s probably a dangerous precedent that’s been set today in getting the game called off. While I agree with what they’re protesting, I wonder if it will happen again when you look at situations like Hearts fans and Budge, or us under Petrie etc.

[AliboyFC]

Surely Liverpool will be awarded the points.


If that had been a smaller clubs fans that stopped a game going ahead they’d award the away team a 3-0 victory.

You're probably right.

[Max_Shah]

I’m sure tomorrow’s back pages will lead with the headline:

“...Relatively peaceful protests at Old Trafford...”

Oh wait...

[AliboyFC]

I’m sure tomorrow’s back pages will lead with the headline:

“...Relatively peaceful protests at Old Trafford...”

Oh wait...

Apparently they have been flipping over cars and all sorts 😂

[K-Zazu]

Just play the game ffs

[Moulin Yarns]

I reckon it’s probably a dangerous precedent that’s been set today in getting the game called off. While I agree with what they’re protesting, I wonder if it will happen again when you look at situations like Hearts fans and Budge, or us under Petrie etc.

I think the difference between the others, and hibs is petrie didn't own hibs. 😉

[cabbageandribs1875]

Man u should be docked a nice round 21 points :agree:

[Lancs Harp]

If that had been a smaller clubs fans that stopped a game going ahead they’d award the away team a 3-0 victory.

Blackpool fans protesting against their owners at the time invaded the pitch at half time and refused to move back in 2015, game was abandoned and never replayed (was last game of the season). Points weren't awarded to Huddersfield and no real action taken against Blackpool.

The United Liverppol game will be played on a new date.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

Sky, and Dave Jones are furious that these ex players aren't lambasting the "yobs" - the only one getting close to criticising the fans is Souness

Gary Neville is every football fan over this Super League nonsense

[Dmas]

Blackpool fans protesting against their owners at the time invaded the pitch at half time and refused to move back in 2015, game was abandoned and never replayed (was last game of the season). Points weren't awarded to Huddersfield and no real action taken against Blackpool.

The United Liverppol game will be played on a new date.


the fans where in the tunnel areas and all sorts its supposed to be a bubble, I get the smaller teams vs big teams thing but its a different world just now that whole place will need cleaned and thats before the team coaches make there way to the ground

[Killiehibbie]

The problem is - who do they want to replace the Glazers?

There aren't many people with a spare £3 billion - and very few of those who do will not be ruthless businessmen who went to the same school as the Glazers.

Noone's going to buy the club then let the fans run it. They'll buy the club and expect a financial return - just like the Glazers do.

All football clubs should be wary of owners who buy the club as an investment - there's no way back.

And I hope Hibs haven't already gone too far down this road.

The Glazers should never have been allowed to fund the takeover in the way they did. It might've been legal but it was wrong. I'm surprised one of the local mob didn't shoot them.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

That segment from Carra was outstanding

David Jones is desperate to portray the fans as yobs, as the government and media have done for years and years

The establishment have done, and continue to do significantly worse than working class men and women protesting

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Glazers should never have been allowed to fund the takeover in the way they did. It might've been legal but it was wrong. I'm surprised one of the local mob didn't shoot them.

Absolutely, and how is it even legal? We need the financial guys like CWG to answer that; it certainly isn't my area of expertise. Why couldn't I have bought Man United by getting a £700 million loan, transferring it onto the club then re-paying it via the income of the club? When the income repays the debt the club is mine. This is capitalism at its most avaricious and destructive.

[Paul1642]

Good on them. Football clubs, especially the big ones have been getting further away from caring about their fans by the year.

Something needs done about it. Not sure what can be done but causing frequent genuine annoyance to the owners, sky etc is as good a way as I can think of. (Keep it peaceful, don’t damage people’s property or fight with police or you will quickly loose goodwill of fellow fans).

[Lancs Harp]

That segment from Carra was outstanding

David Jones is desperate to portray the fans as yobs, as the government and media have done for years and years

The establishment have done, and continue to do significantly worse than working class men and women protesting

Pardon my ignorance but who is David Jones?

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

Pardon my ignorance but who is David Jones?

Sky sports presenter

[HH81]

Absolutely, and how is it even legal? We need the financial guys like CWG to answer that; it certainly isn't my area of expertise. Why couldn't I have bought Man United by getting a £700 million loan, transferring it onto the club then re-paying it via the income of the club? When the income repays the debt the club is mine. This is capitalism at its most avaricious and destructive.

They would have had to put something down as collateral against the loan?

[lord bunberry]

Blackpool fans protesting against their owners at the time invaded the pitch at half time and refused to move back in 2015, game was abandoned and never replayed (was last game of the season). Points weren't awarded to Huddersfield and no real action taken against Blackpool.

The United Liverppol game will be played on a new date.
The next time a club has a lot of players out injured the fans should just invade the stadium and get the game called off. If there’s no punishment what’s to stop them.

[Killiehibbie]

They would have had to put something down as collateral against the loan?

The club?

[lucky]

Surely Liverpool will be awarded the points.

Why?

[HH81]

The club?

If they can't repay the loan the club folds? Would the bank accept this?

[HH81]

Why?

I'd play it Tuesday. Not Liverpool's fault.

[lord bunberry]

Why?
Their fans have stopped the game going ahead. If there’s no punishment it will happen every week until they get what they want.

[Weegreenman]

Makes no sense.
The baw was burst as soon as loads of money came into the game in England.
That caused business men and investors to prick up their ears and they bought all the big clubs like the team formerly known as Manchester United.

All that can happen now is the Glazers sell to other blood suckers of a similar ilk so the protest is 20 years too late.
The fans were asleep at the wheel when all this started and now both they and the club they supported are just a massive big cash cow for their players, owners and investors to exploit to the max. Manchester United died a long time ago.


Let’s be honest the fans weren’t asleep, the fans were probably thinking ye we’ll buy bigger and better players than everyone else.
Unfortunately for them, there are other clubs who have owners who are willing to outspend them.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If they can't repay the loan the club folds? Would the bank accept this?

If they had collateral, wouldn't that have been needed as a down payment at least? A club the size of Man United has such huge income, that the loan can always be re-paid. There was no risk for the Glazers.

[Killiehibbie]

Absolutely, and how is it even legal? We need the financial guys like CWG to answer that; it certainly isn't my area of expertise. Why couldn't I have bought Man United by getting a £700 million loan, transferring it onto the club then re-paying it via the income of the club? When the income repays the debt the club is mine. This is capitalism at its most avaricious and destructive.

Us little guys don't understand how big business works. Debt is how it's all done and even better if somebody else pays it.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Absolutely, and how is it even legal? We need the financial guys like CWG to answer that; it certainly isn't my area of expertise. Why couldn't I have bought Man United by getting a £700 million loan, transferring it onto the club then re-paying it via the income of the club? When the income repays the debt the club is mine. This is capitalism at its most avaricious and destructive.

It happens every day and is normal business practice - when you read about a company being bought over then this is often how it's financed. Such is life.

[Max_Shah]

That segment from Carra was outstanding

David Jones is desperate to portray the fans as yobs, as the government and media have done for years and years

The establishment have done, and continue to do significantly worse than working class men and women protesting

Well said. A cracking post.

Never forget they are utterly petrified of us ticket/subscription buying proles.

Buy your subscription, don't ask questions, just consume soccer product and get excited for next soccer product.

[hibsbollah]

I think it’s great. More of it please.

[neil7908]

I think it’s great. More of it please.

This. It's all gone very quiet since the end of the Super League. If fans down south really do want their football back then action is needed.

The FA, UEFA etc were only unhappy about the Super League as they were getting cut out. They've allowed the current situation to develop whilst they line their own pockets n

[HH81]

See the scenes turned nasty towards the end.

Anyone see the guy walking backwards after giving the police abuse and falling over a fence. Looks like it hurt.

[CMurdoch]

It does make sense. United fans have been stridently anti-Glazer for fifteen years, but what do the American billionaires care, provided they are making money? Some fans even set up FC United, other have campaigned tirelessly to get the Glazers out. Give us the solution then.

It's easy for you to pronounce the death of another club, but what would you do, if it was Hibs? What would you have been prepared to do to stop Wallace Mercer?

Supposing our new American owner was just like the Glazers, what would you do? He isn't a Hibs fan. Are Hibs now dead?

The Glazers bought the club for £800 million and are apparently willing to sell it for £4 billion.

Let's say the Glazers decide sell up. The price will be massive and the only people willing and able to buy the club will be other rich businessmen/investors with the same goal of maximising the return on their investment. If they are clever they may put a Man Utd legend like Sir Alex at the front of their bid to fool gullible fans and get their buy in. In this scenario nothing will have changed from the present, merely new faces but with the same goals so just kicking the can down the road till the next money grab.

The only real solution is for football supporters to smash the cash cow.

Re Hibs
Farmer and Petrie did all the hard miles from 1991 with a ground consisting of glorified wooden huts to the modern stadium of today, from the players training in public parks to the complex at East Mains and from financial meltdown to almost debt free financial stability and all done for little or no return in Farmers case.
You wouldn't have seen Ron Gordon for dust at the beginning of that painful 28 year journey.
He came into a relative paradise. He made a clever choice and given the financial backing of the club over the last year by the supporters for very little in return he will now know his investment is bombproof. It must be said that the strategy followed by Mr Gordon & Miss Dempster for the 14 months of the pandemic appears to have been exemplary.

I have concerns about Mr Gordon. That's no slight on him but a businessman with no connection to Hibs is here to maximise the return on his investment. He will seek to further build the infrastructure of the club, raise turnover and profitability and ultimately sell it for a big profit to another party who will try to do the same, which is where the problems could begin.
The big saving grace is that Scottish Football is not the cash cow that the EPL is so there are no investors that Ron Gordon needs to maximise profit for.
My hope is that he sticks around and becomes strongly attached to the club and at an old age realises he has been the custodian of the club and sells sufficient shares to HSL to ensure the next and succeeding owners can't sell out to those with no interest in the club or the community.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Us little guys don't understand how big business works. Debt is how it's all done and even better if somebody else pays it.


It happens every day and is normal business practice - when you read about a company being bought over then this is often how it's financed. Such is life.

The whole game is rigged. Banks create money from nothing, for the benefit of those who rig the game, including themselves. The masses then live by this artificially created system, in order the perpetuate their own servitude. The financial laws are made to game the system for those who have the wealth, then there is a self-perpetuating feedback loop which constantly proclaims the righteousness of said system. Reminds me of something an old Marxist professor of mine used to say :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Glazers bought the club for £800 million and are apparently willing to sell it for £4 billion.

Let's say the Glazers decide to sell up. The price will be massive and the only people willing and able to buy the club will be other rich businessmen/investors with the same goal of maximising the return on their investment. If they are clever they may put a Man Utd legend like Sir Alex at the front of their bid to fool gullible fans and get their buy in. In this scenario nothing will have changed from the present, merely new faces but with the same goals so just kicking the can down the road.

The only real solution is for football supporters to smash the cash cow.

You didn't answer my question. Do you thinks Hibs are dead because a very rich American has bought us? Aren't we just Man United on a smaller scale?

[Billy Whizz]

You didn't answer my question. Do you thinks Hibs are dead because a very rich American has bought us? Aren't we just Man United on a smaller scale?

We are, and I really wish we weren’t!

I’d like us to be owned by someone who’s in the business day in, day out!

[Greencore]

You didn't answer my question. Do you thinks Hibs are dead because a very rich American has bought us? Aren't we just Man United on a smaller scale?

Comparing Hibs and United financially is stupid.

[ScottB]

It’s fun how, when Chelsea were protesting, Sky’s message was to cheer it on, power to the people. Now that the threat to their investment has passed...

Obviously the violence and the like isn’t something you want to see, but certainly felt like their host was very keen to frame it as negatively possible. ‘The billions we’ve pumped in make us good guys, the billions more they wanted was what was bad, let’s get back to normal’ isn’t likely to be a sustainable position for Sky to take for long if this keeps up.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Comparing Hibs and United financially is stupid.

Not financially comparable, but the principle of rich American capitalists buying both clubs stands. He said United died a long time ago as a result, so are we also dead because we are no longer a club of dirt poor Irish immigrants? What's the cut off point whereby a club can be pronounced dead?

[ScottB]

Not financially comparable, but the principle of rich American capitalists buying both clubs stands. He said United died a long time ago as a result, so are we also dead because we are no longer a club of dirt poor Irish immigrants? What's the cut off point whereby a club can be pronounced dead?

We’ve probably heard more directly from our new rich American capitalist than we ever heard out of our previous, local boy done good, historically connected owner...

[Hibernia&Alba]

We’ve probably heard more directly from our new rich American capitalist than we ever heard out of our previous, local boy done good, historically connected owner...

Okay, but he's a very rich American capitalist with no previous links to Hibs. Does that mean we are dead? What say did we Hibs fans have in his buying the club? ZERO, just like the Man united fans with the Glazers. There's no moral high ground here; this is global capitalism.

[ScottB]

Okay, but he's a very rich American capitalist with no previous links to Hibs. Does that mean we are dead? What say did we Hibs fans have in his buying the club? ZERO, just like the Man united fans with the Glazers. There's no moral high ground here; this is global capitalism.

Oh totally. I imagine if United got bought by, say, Jeff Bezos tomorrow and he signed Mbappe and Messi in the summer, there wouldn’t be any United fans protesting at still being owned by an American capitalist.

[MKHIBEE]

You didn't answer my question. Do you thinks Hibs are dead because a very rich American has bought us? Aren't we just Man United on a smaller scale?
Im not aware of Ron Gordon borrowing the money to buy Hibs then loading the debt onto the club which is what the Glazer family done. There is no comparison between us and Man Utd really

[blackpoolhibs]

Big Ron bought us when we were already dead. 😂

[Iain G]

Okay, but he's a very rich American capitalist with no previous links to Hibs. Does that mean we are dead? What say did we Hibs fans have in his buying the club? ZERO, just like the Man united fans with the Glazers. There's no moral high ground here; this is global capitalism.

It's not that black and white is it? Depends on the individual concerned and what they want to get from it. We are not a cash cow like Man Utd and Ron seems to have, so far, ideas that will progress and improve Hibs while honouring what we stand for and what went before? At least we hear from him which is more than Man Utd fans hear from the Glazers

[Iain G]

Oh totally. I imagine if United got bought by, say, Jeff Bezos tomorrow and he signed Mbappe and Messi in the summer, there wouldn’t be any United fans protesting at still being owned by an American capitalist.

A better option than the dodgy Tesla bloke though... 🤣

[Pretty Boy]

Outstanding stuff. We need more of this from fans, not less imo.

The games been stolen from the communities that founded and nurtured it, they are dismissed as 'legacy fans' and treated like they don't matter, because they don't really if we are being honest. It doesn't matter how long it's taken some fans in England to wake up to that or what provoked it.

The board at Liverpool won't be too worried about getting the 3 points, what is awaiting them next time they are at Annfield will be more of a concern.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Im not aware of Ron Gordon borrowing the money to buy Hibs then loading the debt onto the club which is what the Glazer family done. There is no comparison between us and Man Utd really

So a club is dead when a foreign owner borrows money to buy it? If an American capitalist, with no affinity for his purchase, buys a club without debt, everything is okay, yes? We are still alive and kicking. What if Ron Gordon had borrowed money to buy Hibs, would we not be Hibs now? I think it's entirely insulting to pronounce the death of another club, particularly when that club has been sustained by real fans similar to our own: working class people (many also Irish immigrants on Salford docks) whose memory people like the Glazers desecrate for their own enrichment.

You're missing the point entirely. It's the same game, only on a smaller scale. If Gordon had concluded buying Hibs via debt would enrich him, he would have done it.

The guy in my avatar, what would he say about Hibs and about football in 2021?

[Hibs Class]

Oh totally. I imagine if United got bought by, say, Jeff Bezos tomorrow and he signed Mbappe and Messi in the summer, there wouldn’t be any United fans protesting at still being owned by an American capitalist.

Exactly. Man U fans aren't interested in a level playing field, they've been quite happy to see the competitive gap widen beyond recognition over the last several years, so I'll take their recent discovery of the moral high ground with a big pinch of salt.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Exactly. Man U fans aren't interested in a level playing field, they've been quite happy to see the competitive gap widen beyond recognition over the last several years, so I'll take their recent discovery of the moral high ground with a big pinch of salt.

Protests since 2005? What have Chelsea fans done, Man City fans, Arsenal fans etc?

[BoyledEgg]

We need to storm the pitch the next game at Easter Road.
A mass protest needed.

Not sure what for, but atleast it will stop us losing at home AGAIN.

[Lancs Harp]

There's never a dull moment in football is there.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There's never a dull moment in football is there.

Have you watched Aberdeen?

[Onion]

Exactly. Man U fans aren't interested in a level playing field, they've been quite happy to see the competitive gap widen beyond recognition over the last several years, so I'll take their recent discovery of the moral high ground with a big pinch of salt.

A somewhat heartless comment, preying on the misfortune of the beleaguered.

#prayforunited

[gbhibby]

Will pictures of the protesters appear in newspapers?

[Lancs Harp]

Have you watched Aberdeen?

:greengrin sadly yes.

[Lancs Harp]

Have Rangers issued a statement yet?

Was Lee Wallace battered?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Oh totally. I imagine if United got bought by, say, Jeff Bezos tomorrow and he signed Mbappe and Messi in the summer, there wouldn’t be any United fans protesting at still being owned by an American capitalist.

And what if Bezos bought Hibs from Ron Gordon - how many of our fans would complain?

You can only pish with the walloper you have. Would we protest about Wallace Mercer? Yes. Would we protest about Jeff Bazos? Doubtful. We didn't protest about Gordon, a very rich American with no previous ties to the club, buying it.

There is no moral high ground high ground here. Most fans will protest when new owners are bad for the club; most will cheer when the same type of owner ploughs money in e.g. Man City and Chelsea. All fans are hypocrites.

[jacomo]

And what if Bezos bought Hibs from Ron Gordon - how many of our fans would complain?

You can only pish with the walloper you have. Would we protest about Wallace Mercer? Yes. Would we protest about Jeff Bazos? Doubtful.

There is no moral high ground high ground here. Most fans will protest when new owners are bad for the club; most will cheer when the same type of owner ploughs money in e.g. Man City and Chelsea. All fans are hypocrites.


Don’t speak for all fans please.

I would definitely rethink my relationship to Hibs if certain people took over.

[CMurdoch]

Pardon my ignorance but who is David Jones?

He was in The Monkees
Wee English guy

[Hibernia&Alba]

Don’t speak for all fans please.

I would definitely rethink my relationship to Hibs if certain people took over.

Come on. Bezos, with his unethical treatment of Amazon workers. If he bought Hibs and made us champions splashing millions, what would you do? What would any of us do? Would we stop going just at the point we became a top side? These are real dilemmas.

Look at Man City, bought by the UAE government, with all its appalling human rights violations. What would we do, if we were them now?

[Iggy Pope]

He was in The Monkees
Wee English guy

Had a flat in Drummond Street. Painted his face and dressed like a wummin.

[hibsbollah]

Had a flat in Drummond Street. Painted his face and dressed like a wummin.

Next to the barbers?

[Northernhibee]

Come on. Bezos, with his unethical treatment of Amazon workers. If he bought Hibs and made us champions splashing millions, what would you do? What would any of us do? Would we stop going just at the point we became a top side? These are real dilemmas.

Look at Man City, bought by the UAE government, with all its appalling human rights violations. What would we do, if we were them now?

It's the money in English football that has made it unwatchable for myself. Bought titles, cups, European competitions and knowing where the money comes from makes it worse. The English Premiership title, the Champions League and the like genuinely are utterly meaningless for me. Who can throw as much money down the drain as possible.

If Scottish football turned out that way, I'd be off to watch Dundee Violet, Lochee United, Broughty Athletic or someone like that.

[Northernhibee]

Next to the barbers?

No, usually in his bedroom.

[CMurdoch]

Let’s be honest the fans weren’t asleep, the fans were probably thinking ye we’ll buy bigger and better players than everyone else.
Unfortunately for them, there are other clubs who have owners who are willing to outspend them.

Okay the fans were not asleep, the fans were thick.
I didn't want to say that but it's true.
Hearts fans were similarly thick over Romanov.
Suck the money cock of the rich at your peril :shocked:.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Absolutely delighted to see these protests today. Glad to see there’s still fans down there with some balls.

liverpools ‘spirit of shankly’ group are also to be admired. Everything they say I agree with.

[CMurdoch]

Had a flat in Drummond Street. Painted his face and dressed like a wummin.

and floated in a most peculiar way until it was time to leave the capsule

[Lancs Harp]

Had a flat in Drummond Street. Painted his face and dressed like a wummin.

Nowt wrong with dressing like a wummin.

***** wrong site.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's the money in English football that has made it unwatchable for myself. Bought titles, cups, European competitions and knowing where the money comes from makes it worse. The English Premiership title, the Champions League and the like genuinely are utterly meaningless for me. Who can throw as much money down the drain as possible.

If Scottish football turned out that way, I'd be off to watch Dundee Violet, Lochee United, Broughty Athletic or someone like that.

Wasn't Scottish football a pioneer of money buying success via the Souness revolution at Rangers in 1986? They were buying up the best in the English game at that time. Did you find Scottish football unwatchable then, and did you give up on Hibs as a result? There is so much sanctimony. If Hibs were taken over by a Bezos or Mansoor or some sort, I guarantee few would complain. It's self interest. Huge spending is unedifying when it's somebody else.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Okay the fans were not asleep, the fans were thick.
I didn't want to say that but it's true.
Hearts fans were similarly thick over Romanov.
Suck the money cock of the rich at your peril :shocked:.

False. Many Man United fans protested against the Glazers from the moment they arrived on the scene.

[CMurdoch]

You didn't answer my question. Do you thinks Hibs are dead because a very rich American has bought us? Aren't we just Man United on a smaller scale?

Ron Gordon is one guy. There are no raft of investors, hedge funds and other leeches like the English teams have as owners where they always need to maximise profit for the investors.
As I said I do have concerns about Ron Gordon the biggest of which is who he sells the club to next. That is the big one.
As I also said there are no vast riches to be made in Scottish football so that keeps the big investor sharks away.

P.S. Although not answering your question directly I did say rather a lot about Ron and Hibs etc in my last mega post

[MWHIBBIES]

Didn't Fergie force the previous owners out over a horses stud rights. Quite funny how it's turned out.

[MKHIBEE]

So a club is dead when a foreign owner borrows money to buy it? If an American capitalist, with no affinity for his purchase, buys a club without debt, everything is okay, yes? We are still alive and kicking. What if Ron Gordon had borrowed money to buy Hibs, would we not be Hibs now? I think it's entirely insulting to pronounce the death of another club, particularly when that club has been sustained by real fans similar to our own: working class people (many also Irish immigrants on Salford docks) whose memory people like the Glazers desecrate for their own enrichment.

You're missing the point entirely. It's the same game, only on a smaller scale. If Gordon had concluded buying Hibs via debt would enrich him, he would have done it.

The guy in my avatar, what would he say about Hibs and about football in 2021?

The only point I was making that we were not like Manchester United in the way we were bought and how the buyout was financed. I cannot see where I have insulted another club or mentioned the death of a club
As for your Ron Gordon quote he didn’t and you can’t possibly know what he would have done. Perhaps you replied to the wrong post?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ron Gordon is one guy. There are no raft of investors, hedge funds and other leeches like the English teams have as owners where they need to always need to maximise profit for the investors.
As I said I do have concerns about Ron Gordon the biggest of which is who he sells the club to next.

So are we dead as a result of a super rich American capitalist with no connection to the club buying it? Funding of the takeover seems like semantics, or is an American who buys a football club without loans different?

[Northernhibee]

Wasn't Scottish football a pioneer of money buying success via the Souness revolution at Rangers in 1986? They were buying up the best in the English game at that time. Did you find Scottish football unwatchable then, and did you give up on Hibs as a result? There is so much sanctimony. If Hibs were taken over by a Bezos or Mansoor or some sort, I guarantee few would complain. It's self interest. Huge spending is unedifying when it's somebody else.

I wasn't old enough to remember Scottish football back then.

I also would complain if our club fell into the hands of an unsavoury character. It's maybe a generational thing to want our club run by a character with ethical intentions.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Didn't Fergie force the previous owners out over a horses stud rights. Quite funny how it's turned out.

magnier and mcmanus. They were significant shareholders who sold to Glazer a year or two after falling out with Ferguson

[Killiehibbie]

Didn't Fergie force the previous owners out over a horses stud rights. Quite funny how it's turned out.
They 'gifted' him a horse but only for its racing career.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The only point I was making that we were not like Manchester United in the way we were bought and how the buyout was financed. I cannot see where I have insulted another club or mentioned the death of a club
As for your Ron Gordon quote he didn’t and you can’t possibly know what he would have done. Perhaps you replied to the wrong post?

No, I was responding to your post. What difference does it make how these super rich foreign owners finance a takeover? They are of the same ilk but on different scales. Are we different because an American didn't buy Hibs in the same way as the Americans at Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal? I don't see how we are so different. We are all controlled by big big money and global finance and the fans had zero say in any of those takeovers. We are just customers to all of them, devoid of any influence.

[Keith_M]

So are we dead as a result of a super rich American capitalist with no connection to the club buying it? Funding of the takeover seems like semantics, or is an American who buys a football club without loans different?


That's nonsense.

I don't think Man U are 'dead', but there's simply no comparison between the two, other than Gordon's nationality.

The difference in the manner of each purchase is much more than just semantics.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I wasn't old enough to remember Scottish football back then.

I also would complain if our club fell into the hands of an unsavoury character. It's maybe a generational thing to want our club run by a character with ethical intentions.

But how would you define an 'unsavoury character'? Unless we have fan ownership there is no guarantee that any owner is in it for altruistic reasons. How many Hibs fans would have protested about the human rights record in the UAE (where being gay is punishable by death) had Mansoor bought Hibs instead of Man City, for example?

[MKHIBEE]

No, I was responding to your post. What difference does it make how these super rich foreign owners finance a takeover? They are of the same ilk but on different scales. Are we different because an American didn't buy Hibs in the same way as the Americans at Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal? I don't see how we are so different. We are all controlled by big big money and global finance and the fans had zero say in any of those takeovers. We are just customers to all of them, devoid of any influence.

Ron Gordon cleared our debt when he bought the club, the Glazers put ManUtd in debt for the first in many years simply by the way they financed the buyout, millions and millions of £s of supporters money being used to finance the debt rather than buying the players they needed to stay competitive at the top level. There is a difference, even in the world of big big money. Ron Gordon’s relationship with the club and its fans is something Man Utd fans can only dream about . Big money, different attitudes.

[Irish_Steve]

That's nonsense.

I don't think Man U are 'dead', but there's simply no comparison between the two, other than Gordon's nationality.

The difference in the manner of each purchase is much more than just semantics.

Except Ron isn`t a Yank

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's nonsense.

I don't think Man U are 'dead', but there's simply no comparison between the two, other than Gordon's nationality.

The difference in the manner of each purchase is much more than just semantics.

No it isn't nonsense. How do we define which clubs are dead and which live on? Does Ron Gordon have any more affinity to Hibs than the Glazers have to Man United or the Kroenkes have to Arsenal?

What is the nub of the issue here? They have American owners? So do we. They have owners with no connection to football? So do we. Their owners regard football as investment? So do ours. only the scale is different. This is capitalism in all its ruthless glory.

That's the modern game. Our club is no better nor worse than most others that are remotely comparable. If Ron Gordon was interested solely by the Corinthian spirit, he could have bought Albion Rovers. This is business; he will not chuck millions at it, in order to see Hibs win the league. He wants a return on his investment, that's fine, but let's not try to claim some moral high ground. He is no better than the other mega rich owners who bought clubs. It isn't altruism, there is something he wants in return. It mightn't be as naked, but he didn't buy Hibs out of love. Let's get real here.

[The Modfather]

Some of the videos from the protest are clearly nothing to do with the super league or protesting against the owners. It’s a sizeable number of neds taking advantage of an opportunity to act like cretins.

[tamig]

I think the difference between the others, and hibs is petrie didn't own hibs. 😉

We still managed to get a big trailer into the car park though with Kano on the decks. Thats the way to protest. 😀

[heretoday]

I don't buy this stuff. Man Utd have won a lot of trophies under the Glazers when Fergie was in charge especially. Now their fans are unhappy because they're not winning cups and City and Liverpool are.

Football is about big teams at the top and other teams aspiring to be one of the top teams. It was ever thus. Rich men acquire big teams. Get over it.

[Northernhibee]

But how would you define an 'unsavoury character'? Unless we have fan ownership there is no guarantee that any owner is in it for altruistic reasons. How many Hibs fans would have protested about the human rights record in the UAE (where being gay is punishable by death) had Mansoor bought Hibs instead of Man City, for example?

If it's someone with horrendous human rights records that had bought over Hibs, then you wouldn't see me back in Easter Road until all . Given the traditions and heritage of our club, I know that I would not be alone. I'd rather stand by my LGBTQ+ friends than go to the football and support something at odds with my personal values.

There's nothing wrong with making a profit - it's how any economy operates to engineer something, create something or offer a service that adds value to the raw parts it came from - but if it comes at the expense of human rights, employee rights or doesn't offer someone a living wage then that's completely destructive to society.

As for 'unsavoury character', that is again personal values. Have now given up all Amazon accounts and subscriptions (the Audible was a tough one to give up), avoid tax dodging companies as much as possible, avoid large Tory donors as much as possible and go from there. It's a really simple choice - if you don't want these characters succeeding, don't fund them.

The generation that has followed mine have a lot of this at the forefront of their minds and they get called silly little schoolyard names like "woke", "PC", "lefty" and the like and it's pathetic. They're a generation that will do much more than my generation or any that have come before mine since WW2 IMO and I have faith that they also wouldn't stand for an excellent club that does wonders for the community falling out of that ethos.

[HH81]

https://youtu.be/0pFuCV-CJlI

Fans singing about people dying
Smashing doors for access to the stadium

Manchester United fans.

[Rumble de Thump]

Ron is Peruvian.

[tamig]

Okay, but he's a very rich American capitalist with no previous links to Hibs. Does that mean we are dead? What say did we Hibs fans have in his buying the club? ZERO, just like the Man united fans with the Glazers. There's no moral high ground here; this is global capitalism.

And we all know why the Hibs fans had zero input into the sale of the club to whoever STF decided was the chosen one. Could have been different.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ron Gordon cleared our debt when he bought the club, the Glazers put ManUtd in debt for the first in many years simply by the way they financed the buyout, millions and millions of £s of supporters money being used to finance the debt rather than buying the players they needed to stay competitive at the top level. There is a difference, even in the world of big big money. Ron Gordon’s relationship with the club and its fans is something Man Utd fans can only dream about . Big money, different attitudes.

The scale etc isn't the point. These people don't buy football clubs for the love it. This is business to these people. Yes, it's on a different scale, but it's business. We are not talking altruism here; there are bigger motives in play. Gordon is no better than the rest, and he didn't become so rich by being a philanthropist in sport. Let's just stop with the stone throwing; all these people are part of the same club of global capital. Man United aren't so far from our own situation today, it's just the scale. Where do we draw the line between them and us? When should we also be considered dead? What say do we have in who controls Hibs? None, absolutely none, so, what if the next owners are exactly like the Glazers etc. We will have no say. Do we then roll over and do nothing? it's only when fans feel the club is being harmed that they become animated.

[007]

Not financially comparable, but the principle of rich American capitalists buying both clubs stands. He said United died a long time ago as a result, so are we also dead because we are no longer a club of dirt poor Irish immigrants? What's the cut off point whereby a club can be pronounced dead?

https://i.ibb.co/dBLJ5h0/heraldrangersrip.jpg

[gorgie_harp]

https://i.ibb.co/dBLJ5h0/heraldrangersrip.jpg

:flag::thumbsup::not worth

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://i.ibb.co/dBLJ5h0/heraldrangersrip.jpg




:hilarious

Aye

[Iain G]

Ron is Peruvian.

You mean he isn't even from this planet? 😁

[Key West]

Man United fans with green and yellow scarfs breaking into the ground and changing rooms lighting flares, attacking the police and security staff over owners who pay their players mega bucks to win trophies, oh the irony.

[Andy74]

No, I was responding to your post. What difference does it make how these super rich foreign owners finance a takeover? They are of the same ilk but on different scales. Are we different because an American didn't buy Hibs in the same way as the Americans at Man United, Liverpool and Arsenal? I don't see how we are so different. We are all controlled by big big money and global finance and the fans had zero say in any of those takeovers. We are just customers to all of them, devoid of any influence.

Tom Farmer gave us all plenty time to buy shares.

The reality is that if we didn’t have rich people, regardless of where they come from, then Hibs probably wouldn’t be here.

Of course you don’t have a say in a takeover of something that isn’t yours.

[hibsbollah]

The reality is that if we didn’t have rich people, regardless of where they come from, then Hibs probably wouldn’t be here.



This is an absolute belter :faf: you are solid gold.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Man United fans with green and yellow scarfs breaking into the ground and changing rooms lighting flares, attacking the police and security staff over owners who pay their players mega bucks to win trophies, oh the irony.

Seriously, what irony? Do fans decide player salaries? The fans have been consistently anti-Glazer since 2005 and the Super League disgrace brought it all up again. What should they do? Any violence which hurts people is disgusting, but direct action is the last option. There comes a point whereby feelings reach a tipping point. Hurt nobody but smash the system :agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tom Farmer gave us all plenty time to buy shares.

The reality is that if we didn’t have rich people, regardless of where they come from, then Hibs probably wouldn’t be here.

Of course you don’t have a say in a takeover of something that isn’t yours.

Oh Jesus Christ. Why bother?

[Renton1875]

I don't buy this stuff. Man Utd have won a lot of trophies under the Glazers when Fergie was in charge especially. Now their fans are unhappy because they're not winning cups and City and Liverpool are.

Football is about big teams at the top and other teams aspiring to be one of the top teams. It was ever thus. Rich men acquire big teams. Get over it.

It has nothing to do with City and Liverpool winning trophies and everything to do with the way the Glazers bought the club and loaded it with debt. Yes, of course United supporters dont want to see their biggest rivals winning things and theyve have been happy to win trophies under the Glazer's ownership and yes, they've been happy to see United spending but there's always been a large core of the United support that is vehemently against the Glazers. The recent fiasco with the Super League has brought that back into focus.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It has nothing to do with City and Liverpool winning trophies and everything to do with the way the Glazers bought the club and loaded it with debt. Yes, of course United supporters dont want to see their biggest rivals winning things and theyve have been happy to win trophies under the Glazer's ownership and yes, they've been happy to see United spending but there's always been a large core of the United support that is vehemently against the Glazers. The recent fiasco with the Super League has brought that back into focus.

You get it, mate. This isn't even about any one club, it's about where the game is heading. How dare these interlopers attempt to set up a breakaway league for their own enrichment? This is where these takeovers by vulture capitalists has brought us. Football/sport is about more than the bottom line of greedy owners.

[WhileTheChief..]

Absolutely, and how is it even legal? We need the financial guys like CWG to answer that; it certainly isn't my area of expertise. Why couldn't I have bought Man United by getting a £700 million loan, transferring it onto the club then re-paying it via the income of the club? When the income repays the debt the club is mine. This is capitalism at its most avaricious and destructive.

Whereas with socialism or communism the government could simply take control of our club whenever it wanted and lock up anyone who complained!

[Key West]

Seriously, what irony? Do fans decide player salaries? The fans have been consistently anti-Glazer since 2005 and the Super League disgrace brought it all up again. What should they do? Any violence which hurts people is disgusting, but direct action is the last option. There comes a point whereby feelings reach a tipping point. Hurt nobody but smash the system :agree:

Man United and a lot of other clubs have been international selects for a long time now, I don't care about Any
of them.
They don't give a damn about the their respective domestic clubs.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Whereas with socialism or communism the government could simply take control of our club whenever it wanted and lock up anyone who complained!

Expropriate the expropriators! :agree:

[jacomo]

Wasn't Scottish football a pioneer of money buying success via the Souness revolution at Rangers in 1986? They were buying up the best in the English game at that time. Did you find Scottish football unwatchable then, and did you give up on Hibs as a result? There is so much sanctimony. If Hibs were taken over by a Bezos or Mansoor or some sort, I guarantee few would complain. It's self interest. Huge spending is unedifying when it's somebody else.


This is why football needs stronger governance. Something closer to the German model. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than what we have.

[hibsbollah]

Whereas with socialism or communism the government could simply take control of our club whenever it wanted and lock up anyone who complained!

The 50+1 rule. Works in German football. Germany, that socialist/communist paradise.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is why football needs stronger governance. Something closer to the German model. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than what we have.

I fully agree, it's a massive improvement.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The 50+1 rule. Works in German football. Germany, that socialist/communist paradise.

A social democratic demi-paradise which is infinitely preferable to the neoliberal madness we have endured for forty years.

[CMurdoch]

So are we dead as a result of a super rich American capitalist with no connection to the club buying it? Funding of the takeover seems like semantics, or is an American who buys a football club without loans different?

We are not dead because Ron Gordon bought us but it could turn out to be a slippery slope.
Hibs supporters missed a massive window of opportunity to retain control of their football club for the long term when they chose not to buy shares from Tom Farmer when he offered them through HSL. That short sighted view could come back to bite us very badly in the future.

For example if Ron Gordon makes a big profit by selling our club to another investor then that investor needs to find a way to make more money to recoup his stake money and make a profit on his investment and at that point there is a danger that the club can start to get away from us but as I said previously the big thing in our favour is there is limited money to be made in Scottish football. A salary cap for owners if you will.

As for England, they sold their soul in 1992 when they formed the EPL and dumped the rest of the football pyramid to fend for itself.
They then went in search of money and sold everything to the highest bidder. Low and behold it's turned to **** and the Rhinestone Cowboys are riding them for all they are worth.

For those who have not watched John Barnes video on talk radio after the demise of the super league it hits the bulls eye on loads of targets both football and political. It's a great watch and tells a lot of home truths that dense folk can't see or never considered. The presenters attempt to dumb down John but he keep firing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFO3vzH3yug&ab_channel=talkSPORT

[CMurdoch]

And we all know why the Hibs fans had zero input into the sale of the club to whoever STF decided was the chosen one. Could have been different.

Tom Farmer gave us ample opportunity to buy shares in Hibs through HSL but our supporters in many cases didn't have the intelligence or foresight to grab the opportunity. Since Ron Gordon bought the club HSL members still contribute the same £20k a month to the club but no longer get shares to that value in return. Talk about missing a trick

[Hibernia&Alba]

We are not dead because Ron Gordon bought us but it could turn out to be a slippery slope.
Hibs supporters missed a massive window of opportunity to retain control of their football club for the long term when they chose not to buy shares from Tom Farmer when he offered them through HSL. That short sighted view could come back to bite us very badly in the future.

For example if Ron Gordon makes a big profit by selling our club to another investor then that investor needs to find a way to make more money to recoup his stake money and make a profit on his investment and at that point there is a danger that the club can start to get away from us but as I said previously the big thing in our favour is there is limited money to be made in Scottish football. A salary cap for owners if you will.

As for England, they sold their soul in 1992 when they formed the EPL and dumped the rest of the football pyramid to fend for itself.
They then went in search of money and sold everything to the highest bidder. Low and behold it's turned to **** and the Rhinestone Cowboys are riding them for all they are worth.

For those who have not watched John Barnes video on talk radio after the demise of the super league it hits the bulls eye on loads of targets both football and political. It's a great watch and tells a lot of home truths that dense folk can't see or never considered. The presenters attempt to dumb down John but he keep firing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFO3vzH3yug&ab_channel=talkSPORT

I have already posted the John Barnes video on the non-Hibs football thread and agree with every word. My point is we should all be on the same side, big clubs and small, in order to discuss ownership and money in the game. Football clubs are community assets and not just normal businesses. You can't put a market value upon football clubs; there is an emotional bond.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Tom Farmer gave us ample opportunity to buy shares in Hibs through HSL but our supporters in many cases didn't have the intelligence or foresight to grab the opportunity. Since Ron Gordon bought the club HSL members still contribute the same £20k a month to the club but no longer get shares to that value in return. Talk about missing a trick

And what if they simply didn't have the money? They didn't have the intelligence FFS.

[tamig]

Tom Farmer gave us ample opportunity to buy shares in Hibs through HSL but our supporters in many cases didn't have the intelligence or foresight to grab the opportunity. Since Ron Gordon bought the club HSL members still contribute the same £20k a month to the club but no longer get shares to that value in return. Talk about missing a trick
My point exactly.

[tamig]

And what if they simply didn't have the money? They didn't have the intelligence FFS.

Are you an HSL member?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Are you an HSL member?

Aye, but don't denigrate those who aren't. Many would love to be, but already struggle to make ends meet. Insulting their intelligence is terrible, for me.

[ABZHFC]

Whereas with socialism or communism the government could simply take control of our club whenever it wanted and lock up anyone who complained!

Given I find myself shaking my head at your takes on pretty much everything else, I am not surprised you're coming out with this kind of nonsense

[660]

You get it, mate. This isn't even about any one club, it's about where the game is heading. How dare these interlopers attempt to set up a breakaway league for their own enrichment? This is where these takeovers by vulture capitalists has brought us. Football/sport is about more than the bottom line of greedy owners.

Football was taken over by capitalism 30 years ago and Man Utd are one of the main beneficiaries. Watching these enormous clubs whine about something like the super league is frankly laughable.

[tamig]

Aye, but don't denigrate those who aren't. Many would love to be, but already struggle to make ends meet. Insulting their intelligence is terrible, for me.

HSL has been on the go since 2015. There have been plenty of comments on here alone from folk, when comparing HSL to FOH, have trotted out the old “aye, but they had to do that to save their club” line.

Look back on various HSL threads over the years and you’ll see a multitude of reasons/excuses why people just didn’t fancy getting on board. A lot of these people maybe were a bit ignorant/daft when you now look at the consequences - real or potential - of their inaction. It wasn’t all down to money. I’m sure there are a load of HSL non-donators out there who wouldn’t have missed a fiver a month. If more had chipped in before RG arrived, we could have had that 25% holding with a seat on the board.

An opportunity squandered. We’d have had a say in who took over if more had paid their fiver than trying to come up with excuses not to.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Football was taken over by capitalism 30 years ago and Man Utd are one of the main beneficiaries. Watching these enormous clubs whine about something like the super league is frankly laughable.

It isn't the clubs whining, as the owners were all for it. It's the fans who are kicking up a stink. The Super league is merely the straw that broke the camel's back after so much disdain from owners.

[Hibernia&Alba]

HSL has been on the go since 2015. There have been plenty of comments on here alone from folk, when comparing HSL to FOH, have trotted out the old “aye, but they had to do that to save their club” line.

Look back on various HSL threads over the years and you’ll see a multitude of reasons/excuses why people just didn’t fancy getting on board. A lot of these people maybe were a bit ignorant/daft when you now look at the consequences - real or potential - of their inaction. It wasn’t all down to money. I’m sure there are a load of HSL non-donators out there who wouldn’t have missed a fiver a month. If more had chipped in before RG arrived, we could have had that 25% holding with a seat on the board.

An opportunity squandered. We’d have had a say in who took over if more had paid their fiver than trying to come up with excuses not to.

But lack of intelligence? Let's not go there. Many people have a hard enough time keeping body and soul together, and football is a distant priority. A fiver or more per month is more than many have to spare. That's the real world when there are mouths to feed.

[CMurdoch]

And what if they simply didn't have the money? They didn't have the intelligence FFS.

That why I said "in many cases" to acknowledge Hibs supporters who didn't have the money to contribute but there were also a lot of folk who did have the spare cash but "didn't have the intelligence" to see the opportunity to protect their club long term for what it was and preferred to listen to other no very bright folk who were decrying HSL, calling it a ponzi scheme and accusing Tom Farmer of profiteering etc. These folk forgot about the history and the graphic lessons Duff and Mercer provided, one a fool owner and one an opportunist business man, which almost resulted in our demise. We even had the obvious lessons of the English clubs and how their owners had desecrated them for profit.
Supporters can't have it both ways. You either get organised and buy sufficient shares in your club to keep a level of control over it before the price escalates or you allow investors to buy it and do what they want with it all whilst preying they don't sell it to the devil.

Manchester United supporters to be fair didn't have access to such history or examples 30 years ago or before the succession of big time finance and owners came on the scene.
In 1989 the supporters could have bought the club for £20 million. Now in 2021 the insane price of Hedge Fund United is £4 billion. I'm afraid the Manchester United of the Busby Babes and Law, Best, Charlton, Crerand is long gone and never coming back to their local supporters. Now just another globalised corporate turd with a football team face, sucking endless money out of it's customers.

[MWHIBBIES]

The 50+1 rule. Works in German football. Germany, that socialist/communist paradise.

Not really a rule, more a gentleman's agreement that would get broken within hours here. RB have already done it there.

[hibsbollah]

Not really a rule, more a gentleman's agreement that would get broken within hours here. RB have already done it there.

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp

Whatever you want to call it, has it resulted in the German fans experience being superior in every way to the corresponding English one?

[Onion]

Putting the reasons for the protest to one side, compare and contrast the media coverage of the Man U fans breaking into Old Trafford, setting off flares and attacking the police with the media reaction to Hibs fans running onto the Hampden pitch in celebration 5 years ago.

Yes, the violence at Old Trafford has been condemned, but 90% of the coverage is understanding, empathetic, verging on support. BBC are trotting out fan group leaders, ex-players and politicians who all "understand" the strong feelings and given the airtime to explain the break-in and lawlessness.

[Since90+2]

But lack of intelligence? Let's not go there. Many people have a hard enough time keeping body and soul together, and football is a distant priority. A fiver or more per month is more than many have to spare. That's the real world when there are mouths to feed.

£5 a month is probably affordable to 99% of Hibs supporters. It's not an affordability issue for the vast majority.

[WhileTheChief..]

HSL has been on the go since 2015. There have been plenty of comments on here alone from folk, when comparing HSL to FOH, have trotted out the old “aye, but they had to do that to save their club” line.

Look back on various HSL threads over the years and you’ll see a multitude of reasons/excuses why people just didn’t fancy getting on board. A lot of these people maybe were a bit ignorant/daft when you now look at the consequences - real or potential - of their inaction. It wasn’t all down to money. I’m sure there are a load of HSL non-donators out there who wouldn’t have missed a fiver a month. If more had chipped in before RG arrived, we could have had that 25% holding with a seat on the board.

An opportunity squandered. We’d have had a say in who took over if more had paid their fiver than trying to come up with excuses not to.

If Hibs fans had their say, RG might never have bought us.

No excuses from me, I was never going to buy into HSL. Fan ownership is the last thing I wanted.

Just look over the road to the mess Hearts are in. That will only get worse over time as the fans argue with who should be in charge etc.

I’m entirely comfortable with an experienced business man owning us despite some of you here worrying that he’s an evil capitalist.

[WhileTheChief..]

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp

Whatever you want to call it, has it resulted in the German fans experience being superior in every way to the corresponding English one?

Bayern have just won 8 league titles on the bounce.

You think fans of the smaller clubs think their league is fine?

[Yorkshire HFC]

If Hibs fans had their say, RG might never have bought us.

No excuses from me, I was never going to buy into HSL. Fan ownership is the last thing I wanted.

Just look over the road to the mess Hearts are in. That will only get worse over time as the fans argue with who should be in charge etc.

I’m entirely comfortable with an experienced business man owning us despite some of you here worrying that he’s an evil capitalist.

I don't want any fan having a say in the running of the club - part of being a fan is having completely unrealistic expectations, as we can see from this website. Fans would sack the manager and players after every defeat.

I think the best we can hope for is a "benevolent dictator".

[easty]

Tom Farmer gave us ample opportunity to buy shares in Hibs through HSL but our supporters in many cases didn't have the intelligence or foresight to grab the opportunity. Since Ron Gordon bought the club HSL members still contribute the same £20k a month to the club but no longer get shares to that value in return. Talk about missing a trick

That halo must be heavy on you Einstein.

Me no stupid, me just no want supporter be control of football team duh.

[hibsbollah]

Bayern have just won 8 league titles on the bounce.

You think fans of the smaller clubs think their league is fine?

Yes, I do.

[lucky]

A lot of the comments on this thread are more to do with a lot of football fans hating Manchester United. The reality is the Glazer family bought the club by mortgaging the clubs assets and have taken £1 billion in dividends and loan repayments out the club. Burnley have just been bought in a similar way. Football clubs belong to the supporters the owners are generally just passing through. When Ron Gordon took over Hibs lots of fans were suspicious of his motives. He even earned a nickname of Ron the Con by some of our support and Hearts fans. I hope United get rid of the Glazers and football fans at our clubs sit up and take notice

[lord bunberry]

I can’t say I have any sympathy for fans of the clubs in England. Most of them are arrogant tossers who refer to our league as a pub league. They’ve allowed a situation to develop were the people attending the games are no longer the most important people when the club consider its next move. These protests are years too late to make any meaningful difference, the only way things will change now is if the whole system comes crashing down.

[James Stephen]

A lot of the comments on this thread are more to do with a lot of football fans hating Manchester United. The reality is the Glazer family bought the club by mortgaging the clubs assets and have taken £1 billion in dividends and loan repayments out the club. Burnley have just been bought in a similar way. Football clubs belong to the supporters the owners are generally just passing through. When Ron Gordon took over Hibs lots of fans were suspicious of his motives. He even earned a nickname of Ron the Con by some of our support and Hearts fans. I hope United get rid of the Glazers and footballs at our clubs sit up and take notice

Agree with this - this is all fans vs the status quo, and should be above individual rivalries.

I hope that the last year, and specifically the last few weeks have been both a siren call to fans, and also a realisation to fans as to just how much power they - we - have.

Well done utd fans, hopefully more action from more clubs, eg Newcastle Utd, is not far away.

(Im just using Newcastle as an example of fans who are angry but cant seem to organise protest effectively.

[tamig]

If Hibs fans had their say, RG might never have bought us.

No excuses from me, I was never going to buy into HSL. Fan ownership is the last thing I wanted.

Just look over the road to the mess Hearts are in. That will only get worse over time as the fans argue with who should be in charge etc.

I’m entirely comfortable with an experienced business man owning us despite some of you here worrying that he’s an evil capitalist.

No complaints from me about RG owning us. The point I was making was in relation to folk mentioning the fact that Hibs fans had zero say in how the ownership changed. I don’t agree with full fan ownership but a seat at the table to be able to say your piece would have been good. I just cannot see how the FOH model is going to work. Car crash in the making.

[gbhibby]

Putting the reasons for the protest to one side, compare and contrast the media coverage of the Man U fans breaking into Old Trafford, setting off flares and attacking the police with the media reaction to Hibs fans running onto the Hampden pitch in celebration 5 years ago.

Yes, the violence at Old Trafford has been condemned, but 90% of the coverage is understanding, empathetic, verging on support. BBC are trotting out fan group leaders, ex-players and politicians who all "understand" the strong feelings and given the airtime to explain the break-in and lawlessness.
That's because it's Man Utd always seem to get a more sympathetic press coverage. Sourness said that a full beer can and flare were thrown at the TV platform. No mention of that in subsequent press reports on other channels other than Sky.

[Keith_M]

Bayern have just won 8 league titles on the bounce.

You think fans of the smaller clubs think their league is fine?


Yes, I do.


You've just confirmed that you know very few Germans.

Everybody else hates Bayern and their domination of the league.

[hibsbollah]

You've just confirmed that you know very few Germans.

Everybody else hates Bayern and their domination of the league.

I know most German fans hate Bayern.
I also know that German fans love the 50+1 rule and would not accept the English model. The vast majority of French fans are the same. The match day experience in both leagues is way better, I think that’s obvious.

[Keith_M]

I know most German fans hate Bayern.
I also know that German fans love the 50+1 rule and would not accept the English model. The vast majority of French fans are the same. The match day experience in both leagues is way better, I think that’s obvious.


I agree about the 50+1 rule (even though it can and has been circumvented on occasion). The problem is that it's not actually some nirvana, that will magically make the league much more competitive (Bayern have now won over 50% of league titles, as well as the last eight in a row).

I realise it's probably sacrilege to state this but the artificially created RB Leipzig have actually introduced some much needed competition at the top of the Bundesliga... though, TBF, their Austrian counterparts have killed off any competition in their league.

[Scouse Hibee]

Their fans have stopped the game going ahead. If there’s no punishment it will happen every week until they get what they want.

Nah not for me, if the United players had refused to play then awarding the points to Liverpool would be justified in my opinion but getting the points for their fans protest wouldn’t sit well with me.

[ekhibee]

We are not dead because Ron Gordon bought us but it could turn out to be a slippery slope.
Hibs supporters missed a massive window of opportunity to retain control of their football club for the long term when they chose not to buy shares from Tom Farmer when he offered them through HSL. That short sighted view could come back to bite us very badly in the future.

For example if Ron Gordon makes a big profit by selling our club to another investor then that investor needs to find a way to make more money to recoup his stake money and make a profit on his investment and at that point there is a danger that the club can start to get away from us but as I said previously the big thing in our favour is there is limited money to be made in Scottish football. A salary cap for owners if you will.

As for England, they sold their soul in 1992 when they formed the EPL and dumped the rest of the football pyramid to fend for itself.
They then went in search of money and sold everything to the highest bidder. Low and behold it's turned to **** and the Rhinestone Cowboys are riding them for all they are worth.

For those who have not watched John Barnes video on talk radio after the demise of the super league it hits the bulls eye on loads of targets both football and political. It's a great watch and tells a lot of home truths that dense folk can't see or never considered. The presenters attempt to dumb down John but he keep firing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFO3vzH3yug&ab_channel=talkSPORT

Excellent listening to Barnes speaking about this, a lot of what he said I had suspected for quite a while and it doesn't take a genius to work out, but it's good that he's come out publicly and said it. Football is a corrupt sport, but at the same time an addictive one, hence why we are having this discussion. A lot of the time people turn a blind eye to the goings on behind the scenes, to most of us we just want to watch our team. but a team like Man Utd makes an awful lot of money through things like corporate sponsorship etc, much more than what is paid for through season tickets IMO. They are a global brand which attracts the eyes of the money men, in this case the Glazers. But it's not a unique situation, and English football has become so entrenched in debt that nobody is in a position to tell Sky to stick it, because at the end of the day, Sky have more power than any of them.

[Keith_M]

On the subject of corruption and massive debt in football....


I see Andy Walker has now been banned from Ibrox because he dared to raise the issue of (The) Rangers finances and their massive debts.

Maybe time for more people to start talking about this kind of stuff, as it's a fairly common theme at many of the larger clubs.

[Billy Whizz]

On the subject of corruption and massive debt in football....


I see Andy Walker has now been banned from Ibrox because he dared to raise the issue of (The) Rangers finances and their massive debts.

Maybe time for more people to start talking about this kind of stuff, as it's a fairly common theme at many of the larger clubs.

Not sure sky will be happy with this
As an aside, how big are their debts

[Keith_M]

Not sure sky will be happy with this
As an aside, how big are their debts


The article I read (in the Herald) didn't mention that part. Presumably they're too scared to in case they get banned as well.

[CMurdoch]

That halo must be heavy on you Einstein.

Me no stupid, me just no want supporter be control of football team duh.

I agree that supporters owning the club ala Hearts isn't a great idea and is doomed to endless friction.
The idea for Hibs wasn't for the supporters to own or control the football club but to have sufficient shares in our hands to give us a degree of control of our destiny such as a scenario where Ron wanted to sell the club to someone like Mike Ashley or the near death experience we had when Mercer made his power grab attempt or to reign in an owner like Duff etc.

I realise that you aren't old enough to have any real memory of the Duff and Mercer bankruptcy takeover nightmare but those of us that were there remember it vividly and for that reason wanted measures in place to ensure nothing similar could happen again.
Just think you could have been a Hearts supporter without Hands of Hibs and Tom Farmer. Duh.

[MWHIBBIES]

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp

Whatever you want to call it, has it resulted in the German fans experience being superior in every way to the corresponding English one?
I agree the fan experience is better. The league is as one sided as any.

[Keith_M]

In regards to the Hibs support having the option to buy up a controlling percentage of the shares:


We, as a support, were given an opportunity to do just that but didn't show enough interest in it. If the desire wasn't there, then I have no problem with the previous owners ending the agreement and selling up the remainder of the club to Gordon.


As for Gordon himself; he bought the club with his own money and used his own money to pay off the remainder of our debt. He has said he has a long term vision for the club and, while it's still early days, I have yet to see anything from him that would make me worried for the club under his stewardship.

For one thing, there's very little money in the Scottish game to suggest he'll ever make a profit, so he's unlikely to ever sell us on to some Arab Sheikh or Russian Oligarch.


Any comparison with the Glaziers and their debt laden takeover of Man Utd is laughable.

[Pagan Hibernia]

In regards to the Hibs support having the option to buy up a controlling percentage of the shares:


We, as a support, were given an opportunity to do just that but didn't show enough interest in it. If the desire wasn't there, then I have no problem with the previous owners ending the agreement and selling up the remainder of the club to Gordon.


As for Gordon himself; he bought the club with his own money and used his own money to pay off the remainder of our debt. He has said he has a long term vision for the club and, while it's still early days, I have yet to see anything from him that would make me worried for the club under his stewardship.

For one thing, there's very little money in the Scottish game to suggest he'll ever make a profit, so he's unlikely to ever sell us on to some Arab Sheikh or Russian Oligarch.


Any comparison with the Glaziers and their debt laden takeover of Man Utd is laughable.

at that time of Ron Gordon’s investment, HSL was getting there. It was slower than most of us would have liked but we were closing in on 20%, from there getting to the magic 25% would not have taken long. So I was anything but happy when that particular rug was swept out from under us.

none of which is Ron Gordon’s fault however. I totally agree that he has been, and is, an excellent chairman.

[Glory Lurker]

Let's face it, the bigger a club is the more remote the chances of fan action achieving anything become. Those Man U fans were wasting their time (and the ones who acted illegally were shaming any cause the others might have).

[hibsbollah]

I agree the fan experience is better. The league is as one sided as any.

The point of 50+1 and similar initiatives (ultra groups sitting on boards of directors as happens in France for example) has nothing to do with making leagues more competitive or level the playing field, i don’t know where that comparison has come from. It’s daft to think it would have that immediate effect. The point of it is to stop the power being concentrated with one man, and to stop the franchising model.

[The Baldmans Comb]

This is another reason why I admire English people so much.✅.

It might be English football fans or it might be public school toffs in parliament or it might be some made up imagined far away threat but they are a very clever race of people who will react accordingly any time they feel that their beliefs or any of their interests are under threat.

They always play the long game with divide and rule their normal strategy but push them to far and there is always this undercurrent of violence in the background.

A country I have always felt to be admired and I wish all their football fans the best of luck in trying to reclaim their game✅

[hibsbollah]

Let's face it, the bigger a club is the more remote the chances of fan action achieving anything become. Those Man U fans were wasting their time (and the ones who acted illegally were shaming any cause the others might have).

The aim of the Man U fans there, as they confirmed when being interviewed, was to force the cancellation of the biggest game in English football, and they achieved that in front of a global audience, so it was a spectacular success. Couldn’t be further away from being a waste of time.

[Kato]

This is another reason why I admire English people so much.✅.

It might be English football fans or it might be public school toffs in parliament or it might be some made up imagined far away threat but they are a very clever race of people who will react accordingly any time they feel that their beliefs or any of their interests are under threat.

They always play the long game with divide and rule their normal strategy but push them to far and there is always this undercurrent of violence in the background.

A country I have always felt to be admired and I wish all their football fans the best of luck in trying to reclaim their game✅

A sentiment I sort of agree with but it has taken them a long, long time to collectively remember that their clubs belong to them. To my mind the actions they are taking now is a horse/stable door/bolted scenario.

[Kato]

at that time of Ron Gordon’s investment, HSL was getting there. It was slower than most of us would have liked but we were closing in on 20%, from there getting to the magic 25% would not have taken long. So I was anything but happy when that particular rug was swept out from under us.

none of which is Ron Gordon’s fault however. I totally agree that he has been, and is, an excellent chairman.

Did fans not already own enough shares so that when HLS total was added to the existing minority shareholding, fans in fact already own more than 25%?

[Glory Lurker]

The aim of the Man U fans there, as they confirmed when being interviewed, was to force the cancellation of the biggest game in English football, and they achieved that in front of a global audience, so it was a spectacular success. Couldn’t be further away from being a waste of time.

Stopping their team playing doesn't strike me as being very productive. The Glazers are hardly going to hand over their interests as a result. The money required to secure change at the "top end" of football is way beyond the means of supporters groups. The chance to change it sailed decades ago.

[hibsbollah]

Stopping their team playing doesn't strike me as being very productive. The Glazers are hardly going to hand over their interests as a result. The money required to secure change at the "top end" of football is way beyond the means of supporters groups. The chance to change it sailed decades ago.

Supporters groups don’t need to have money themselves to secure change, of course they don’t have those resources. They just need to threaten what generates that massive global TV revenue in the first place, the actual games themselves. Liverpool Man Utd is a massive massive global event that did not get staged and was therefore not watched in TVs in Hong Kong or Rio or wherever, and the protests might well continue and copycat by other teams fans who feel the same way. The implications of that is huge. I think you’re underestimating the worry that this is causing in boardrooms.

[Keith_M]

Supporters groups don’t need to have money themselves to secure change, of course they don’t have those resources. They just need to threaten what generates that massive global TV revenue in the first place, the actual games themselves. Liverpool Man Utd is a massive massive global event that did not get staged and was therefore not watched in TVs in Hong Kong or Rio or wherever, and the protests might well continue and copycat by other teams fans who feel the same way. The implications of that is huge. I think you’re underestimating the worry that this is causing in boardrooms.


So what would you say would be a likely outcome of this current campaign by these fans groups?

Are the Glazers going to sell Manchester United on for a loss to genuine fans?

:dunno:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Stopping their team playing doesn't strike me as being very productive. The Glazers are hardly going to hand over their interests as a result. The money required to secure change at the "top end" of football is way beyond the means of supporters groups. The chance to change it sailed decades ago.

You could well be right, mate, but they can only try. The alternative is do nothing. This Super League debacle re-energised fans of clubs who want their owners out. They saw a chance to push home the advantage. The Glazers are most loathed owners of the lot, so it was likely that's where things would get most serious.

The only way I can see it working is by sustaining the protests at every home game. Direct action, even try to get every home game abandoned, in addition to other parallel protests. As a one off, it won't achieve anything. The Glazers need to experience their revenue drying up.

Anyway, good thread this. I've enjoyed it - some big issues raised.

[Hibernia&Alba]

So what would you say would be a likely outcome of this current campaign by these fans groups?

Are the Glazers going to sell Manchester United on for a loss to genuine fans?

:dunno:

With the size of their support, they should set up a vehicle for majority fan ownership, like Germany. Other wealthy individuals could get on board and would get a return on their investment. I think it's realistic.

[Keith_M]

With the size of their support, they should set up a vehicle for majority fan ownership, like Germany. Other wealthy individuals could get on board and would get a return on their investment. I think it's realistic.


Sounds fair enough, if people get on board with it.

However, the Glazers basically hold all the cards at the moment and they'll still be trying to sell it on for as much profit as possible (unless potential buyers no longer see it as an attractive proposition, due to potential further protests).

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sounds fair enough, if people get on board with it.

However, the Glazers basically hold all the cards at the moment and they'll still be trying to sell it on for as much profit as possible (unless potential buyers no longer see it as an attractive proposition, due to potential further protests).

Oh they are certainly ruthless and stubborn. They have brazened it out for fifteen years; they can't even go to matches when in England because they are so hated, but they still hold on. They even had the gall to join the Super League, knowing how unpopular they are already. They couldn't care less what the fans think.

[WhileTheChief..]

With the size of their support, they should set up a vehicle for majority fan ownership, like Germany. Other wealthy individuals could get on board and would get a return on their investment. I think it's realistic.

If you want to force these owners out, you will need the government to intervene. Is that really the route you want to go down?

[Lancs Harp]

the 50+1 rule is not without its problems and can get very political. Ask Schalke fans in fighting there this season has cost them their Bundesliga place, an example of how not to run a club.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If you want to force these owners out, you will need the government to intervene. Is that really the route you want to go down?

Well, doesn't Germany have a legal mandate that clubs must be 51% fan controlled? Their game seems a much better way of doing things.

[Hibernia&Alba]

the 50+1 rule is not without its problems and can get very political. Ask Schalke fans in fighting there this season has cost them their Bundesliga place, an example of how not to run a club.

Yes, there is no perfect model, you have to pick your poison. Democracy i.e. fan control could get messy.

[hibsbollah]

So what would you say would be a likely outcome of this current campaign by these fans groups?

Are the Glazers going to sell Manchester United on for a loss to genuine fans?

:dunno:

I have no idea what will happen in the end.

I think it’s highly likely the other big clubs’ fans will have similar protests, obviously Man U fans have specific problems with the Glazers, butChelseaLiverpool Arsenal fans also came out in force when the Super League proposals came out and I’d be surprised if similar protests aren’t already being planned right now.

Spirit of Shankly polled it’s members and 90% wanted fan représentions at board level. Fenway Sports Group have agreed to start talks with SOS just yesterday after their humiliating apology after the super league collapse, so the process is already underway.

Personally I think It’s highly unlikely there will be a 50+1 rule in England, There’d be legal challenges. You’d be basically sequestrating assets for the public good, not exactly what the current Government is famous for. I think it’s more likely the big clubs will feel pressure to allow fans reps on boards, maybe start taking on board concerns about ticket prices, safe standing, the match day experience, kickoff times even. There will be politicians wanting to hop on the bandwagon if it gets rolling.

[CMurdoch]

False. Many Man United fans protested against the Glazers from the moment they arrived on the scene.

But they failed because other Man Utd supporters kept filling the ground for every game, buying the merchandise, took out sky subscriptions.

As I said yesterday you need to smash the cash cow to effect real change now.
That means no fans buying match tickets
No fans buying merchandise
No fans buying hospitality

Then the biggy is stopping the games taking place by preventing the players from gaining access to the stadiums as we saw yesterday. That means the TV subscription firms and their subscribers don't get the games

All the above causes club sponsors to withdraw, tv subscribers to withdraw and that in turn causes the broadcasters to demand massive refunds.

The cash cow grinds to a halt, becomes a cash turd and the owners **** themselves.
Owners meet with their lawyers and try to fight but it's ultimately futile if the supporters stay resolute.
*Individual fans will have to be smart to avoid the rich guys lawyers coming after them for vast damages.

Negotiations on sale to the supporters of 50% shares plus 1 share begins thereafter.

* Caveat - the owners are likely to try to play the games in another country in the short term but I suspect that would be futile.

[WhileTheChief..]

Well, doesn't Germany have a legal mandate that clubs must be 51% fan controlled? Their game seems a much better way of doing things.

So if that happens here, what about all the clubs that are perfectly happy with their owners?

Roy McGregor at Ross Co has to give 51% of the club away? Ron Gordon at Hibs?

We might never see new money coming into the game if that was to happen. There’s a limit to how much fans can be expected to do or pay.

I don’t know enough about how Germany got there, but you can’t just go around forcing owners of businesses to give them away!

[WhileTheChief..]

You’d be basically sequestrating assets for the public good

Just a fancy way of saying what I said earlier :greengrin

[CMurdoch]

I have no idea what will happen in the end.

I think it’s highly likely the other big clubs’ fans will have similar protests, obviously Man U fans have specific problems with the Glazers, butChelseaLiverpool Arsenal fans also came out in force when the Super League proposals came out and I’d be surprised if similar protests aren’t already being planned right now.

Spirit of Shankly polled it’s members and 90% wanted fan représentions at board level. Fenway Sports Group have agreed to start talks with SOS just yesterday after their humiliating apology after the super league collapse, so the process is already underway.

Personally I think It’s highly unlikely there will be a 50+1 rule in England, There’d be legal challenges. You’d be basically sequestrating assets for the public good, not exactly what the current Government is famous for. I think it’s more likely the big clubs will feel pressure to allow fans reps on boards, maybe start taking on board concerns about ticket prices, safe standing, the match day experience, kickoff times even. There will be politicians wanting to hop on the bandwagon if it gets rolling.

Sadly this will happen which will keep the rich in charge of the big English clubs and continuing to hoover off vast profits forever whilst paying lip service to a few fans reps whilst tinkering around the edges of the match day experience and blowing warm air up the butts of legacy fans to make them think they are important to them and have won.

[Hibernia&Alba]

But they failed because other Man Utd supporters kept filling the ground for every game, buying the merchandise, took out sky subscriptions.

As I said yesterday you need to smash the cash cow to effect change now.
That means no fans buying match tickets
No fans buying merchandise
No fans buying hospitality

Then the biggy is stopping the games taking place by preventing the players from gaining access to the stadiums as we saw yesterday. That means the TV subscription firms and their subscribers don't get the games

All the above causes club sponsors to withdraw, tv subscribers to withdraw and that in turn causes the broadcasters to demand massive refunds.

The cash cow grinds to a halt, becomes a cash turd and the owners **** themselves.
Owners meet with their lawyers and try to fight but it's ultimately futile if the supporters stay resolute.
*Individual fans will have to be smart to avoid the rich guys lawyers coming after them for vast damages.

Negotiations on a fire sale to the supporters for 50% plus 1 share begins thereafter.

* Caveat - the owners are likely to try to play the games in another country in the short term but I suspect that would be futile.

Agreed, hitting such owners in the pocket is the only way to hurt them. It's difficult for fans who want the owners out but want to support their team; I get that. Personally, if I was them, I would say it's a sacrifice worth paying, but it's difficult to get all fans to walk away. It would require unity of purpose, but these big clubs will always have people who will buy the tickets. I don't know how realistic an option it is. A dual strategy of full boycott alongside peaceful direct action over a sustained period is the only thing I can imagine forcing owners like the Glazers to consider their future.

[Hibernia&Alba]

So if that happens here, what about all the clubs that are perfectly happy with their owners?

Roy McGregor at Ross Co has to give 51% of the club away? Ron Gordon at Hibs?

We might never see new money coming into the game if that was to happen. There’s a limit to how much fans can be expected to do or pay.

I don’t know enough about how Germany got there, but you can’t just go around forcing owners of businesses to give them away!

I get that; there are no easy solutions. The thing is some clubs will be happy with their owners today, but what if somebody buys the club who runs it into the ground? The fans have no say who controls their club, and ultimately clubs do belong to the fans. The German model ensures that clubs are run in the best interests of the supporters at all times.

How was done over there? Were owners forced to sell up, or has it always been fan controlled?

[hibsbollah]

Sadly this will happen which will keep the rich in charge of the big English clubs and continuing to hoover off vast profits forever whilst paying lip service to a few fans reps whilst tinkering around the edges of the match day experience and blowing warm air up the butts of legacy fans to make them think they are important to them and have won.

If you got fan reps with voting rights you’d basically have a veto on super league shenanigans, and if you had a more German or French pricing structure, more German and French transport connectivity, German or French match day experience food etc, I think you’d consider it worthwhile if you were a regular season ticket holder at those clubs.

[hibsbollah]

I get that; there are no easy solutions. The thing is some clubs will be happy with their owners today, but if somebody buys the club who runs it into the ground? The fans have no say who controls their club, and ultimately clubs do belong to the fans. The German model ensures that clubs are run in the best interests of the supporters at all times.

How was done over there? Were owners forced to sell up, or has it always been fan controlled?

Good summary here.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/22/football-ownership-model-germany-english-fans-european-super-league-clubs

Basically it’s incomparable because when the rule came in in 1998 the German clubs were emerging from being community organisations run by volunteers and there was no need to force businesses to sell, because they weren’t businesses in the normal sense.

[hibsbollah]

I get that; there are no easy solutions. The thing is some clubs will be happy with their owners today, but what if somebody buys the club who runs it into the ground

....or changes the name of the team, or the ground they play at, or the city or country they play in? That’s the reality of a super league with franchises.

[Keith_M]

I have no idea what will happen in the end.

I think it’s highly likely the other big clubs’ fans will have similar protests, obviously Man U fans have specific problems with the Glazers, butChelseaLiverpool Arsenal fans also came out in force when the Super League proposals came out and I’d be surprised if similar protests aren’t already being planned right now.

Spirit of Shankly polled it’s members and 90% wanted fan représentions at board level. Fenway Sports Group have agreed to start talks with SOS just yesterday after their humiliating apology after the super league collapse, so the process is already underway.

Personally I think It’s highly unlikely there will be a 50+1 rule in England, There’d be legal challenges. You’d be basically sequestrating assets for the public good, not exactly what the current Government is famous for. I think it’s more likely the big clubs will feel pressure to allow fans reps on boards, maybe start taking on board concerns about ticket prices, safe standing, the match day experience, kickoff times even. There will be politicians wanting to hop on the bandwagon if it gets rolling.


I just wanted to clarify that I would welcome it if football clubs were in the hands of genuine fans, or even less cynical and profit oriented business people.

Maybe I'm being overly negative and there will at least be some progress, like the changes you mentioned.

TBH, if I lived in Manchester, I'd probably support the club started by the disgruntled former United fans instead of either of the big two.

[WhileTheChief..]

I get that; there are no easy solutions. The thing is some clubs will be happy with their owners today, but what if somebody buys the club who runs it into the ground? The fans have no say who controls their club, and ultimately clubs do belong to the fans. The German model ensures that clubs are run in the best interests of the supporters at all times.

How was done over there? Were owners forced to sell up, or has it always been fan controlled?

I don’t know. I don’t really care too much about the mega big clubs and find it hard to sympathise with their supporters.

On our level though, I’d rather stick with the way things are. Some will go down the fan owned route like Hearts or Motherwell, others will be happy with Ron Gordon or Desmott Desmond in charge.

I don’t think there’s a ‘right’ way. I do however think we’ve been lucky with STF and now RG.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Good summary here.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/22/football-ownership-model-germany-english-fans-european-super-league-clubs

Basically it’s incomparable because when the rule came in in 1998 the German clubs were emerging from being community organisations run by volunteers and there was no need to force businesses to sell, because they weren’t businesses in the normal sense.

Thanks. The Germans usually get it right, don't they? It would be very difficult to force owners to sell. It would be a legal quagmire.

Clubs will probably need to pursue fan control on a case by case basis, as Motherwell did.

[Hibernia&Alba]

....or changes the name of the team, or the ground they play at, or the city or country they play in? That’s the reality of a super league with franchises.

Absolutely, that's what they wanted: the full American model.

[hibsbollah]

I just wanted to clarify that I would welcome it if football clubs were in the hands of genuine fans, or even less cynical and profit oriented business people.

Maybe I'm being overly negative and there will at least be some progress, like the changes you mentioned.

TBH, if I lived in Manchester, I'd probably support the club started by the disgruntled former United fans instead of either of the big two.

That’s interesting, If you live in Manchester you’ve got a choice of just about every model; your collapsed mismanaged club now a Phoenix club in the lower leagues (Bury) collapsed mismanaged club now on their way back to the upper tiers again (Bolton) community hipster favourite anti globalisation United FC, ex pro millionaire plaything club (Salford) gulf billionaire super club (City) and yank global billionaire super club (Utd).

[Hibernia&Alba]

That’s interesting, If you live in Manchester you’ve got a choice of just about every model; your collapsed mismanaged club now a Phoenix club in the lower leagues (Bury) collapsed mismanaged club now on their way back to the upper tiers again (Bolton) community hipster favourite anti globalisation United FC, ex pro millionaire plaything club (Salford) gulf billionaire super club (City) and yank global billionaire super club (Utd).

It's hard to walk away. How many of us would be prepared to give up on Hibs and start a phoenix club because of dreadful owners?

[Keith_M]

Thanks. The Germans usually get it right, don't they? ...


There's an interesting and cautionary story in what happened at 1860 Munich in regard to circumventing the 50%+1 rule.

After a few years of serious errors (such as sharing the ownership of the Allianz Arena with Bayern) they were bought over by a Jordanian 'Investor', Hasan Ismaik, and he didn't fancy sharing the club with the fans, so managed to come to an agreement that he would be allowed to own more than 50% of the shares, but with a caveat regarding voting rights on important matters in the boardroom.

He quite quickly decided that he wasn't happy with this arrangement and put the supporters through hell by first removing finance from the team and then scuppering the plans for a new stadium in the east of the city to try to get his own way.

They were relegated a few years back to the regional leagues, but only because the owners refused to pay the 'registration' fee to the league for the following season. They didn't give up without a fight but were seriously on the brink of disappearing completely for a while.

[hibsbollah]

It's hard to walk away. How many of us would be prepared to give up on Hibs and start a phoenix club because of dreadful owners?

Not me, I just think it’s interesting that one city gives us such a wide range of clubs in various stages of development and collapse. Maybe we just want a bit of stability :dunno:

[Iggy Pope]

We still managed to get a big trailer into the car park though with Kano on the decks. Thats the way to protest. 😀

True. And it’s not even our car park :wink:

[Pagan Hibernia]

Did fans not already own enough shares so that when HLS total was added to the existing minority shareholding, fans in fact already own more than 25%?

the nominee holdings which hold a total of around about 10% cannot be depended on to side with the supporters in the event of any funny business.

they may be supporters themselves, or they may not. No one knows except them, and no one knows who they are.

[Billy Whizz]

Sky sports reporting, Chelsea are permitting “ 3 supporter advisors” to attend board meetings from July
Big clubs starting to wake up

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sky sports reporting, Chelsea are permitting “ 3 supporter advisors” to attend board meetings from July
Big clubs starting to wake up

Call me cynical, but those huge and rich clubs will pay lip service to fan participation to buy them off. It might work for Chelsea, where fans support the owner, but it would never appease the fans at Man United, Arsenal, and possibly Liverpool.

[Kato]

the nominee holdings which hold a total of around about 10% cannot be depended on to side with the supporters in the event of any funny business.

they may be supporters themselves, or they may not. No one knows except them, and no one knows who they are.

Thanks for clarifying. :aok:

[Andy74]

Thanks for clarifying. :aok:

The possibility of them being anything other than Hibs fans who have decided to use nominee accounts is pretty remote.

[CMurdoch]

Sky sports reporting, Chelsea are permitting “ 3 supporter advisors” to attend board meetings from July
Big clubs starting to wake up

Declan Patrick Alooysius McManus said it best when he said

"But everybody is going through the motions
Everybody is going through the motions
Are you really only going through the motions?
Lip service is all you'll ever get from me"

[Pagan Hibernia]

The possibility of them being anything other than Hibs fans who have decided to use nominee accounts is pretty remote.

there is absolutely no evidence of that, one way or another unfortunately.

either way, our club’s history and flirtation with disaster a few decades ago means we should all be instinctively vigilant

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I believe that all things in life can be explained through quotes from The Big Lebowski - cult classic film by the Coen brothers.

In this instance we have 3 (at least):

“This aggression will not stand man” - Fans have risen up against the Super League
“Thats what happens Larry” - the consequences of it all

And “The Chinaman is not the issue here dude”

The final quote means it’s all a red herring.

The real issue here is not club owners but the continued failure of football authorities to save football clubs from themselves. Football authorities have continually been asleep at the wheel
Focusing on “development of the game” whilst clubs are going to the wall despite the riches of money bestowed upon them by TV companies.

Sustainability should always be number one. Yet clearly no meaningful tests exists to show that clubs can last a season. Why is this?

[Pagan Hibernia]

I believe that all things in life can be explained through quotes from The Big Lebowski - cult classic film by the Coen brothers.

In this instance we have 3 (at least):

“This aggression will not stand man” - Fans have risen up against the Super League
“Thats what happens Larry” - the consequences of it all

And “The Chinaman is not the issue here dude”

The final quote means it’s all a red herring.

The real issue here is not club owners but the continued failure of football authorities to save football clubs from themselves. Football authorities have continually been asleep at the wheel
Focusing on “development of the game” whilst clubs are going to the wall despite the riches of money bestowed upon them by TV companies.

Sustainability should always be number one. Yet clearly no meaningful tests exists to show that clubs can last a season. Why is this?

because the football authorities also have their noses in the trough?

[hibsbollah]

because the football authorities also have their noses in the trough?

Who peed on the rug though

[Pagan Hibernia]

Who peed on the rug though

the chinaman (not the preferred nomenclature, Asian American please)

[The Modfather]

Who peed on the rug though

This is not Nam. This is Scottish football. There are rules.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Look at this James Hunt, skullet and all. "Are the Manchester United fans just customers to you"? Great question.


https://youtu.be/1zY4goGmpw4

[HH81]

When are they playing the Liverpool game or are they just going to award them 0-3 away win?

[Hibernia&Alba]

When are they playing the Liverpool game or are they just going to award them 0-3 away win?

Don't know yet, nor of any punishment for the six break away clubs.

[Andy74]

When are they playing the Liverpool game or are they just going to award them 0-3 away win?

May 13.

[Hibernia&Alba]

May 13.

Cheers. No sanctions then?

[Yorkshire HFC]

Cheers. No sanctions then?

Why would you be expecting sanctions against them - what rules did they break?

And if so, what would any sanctions be? Would you not just be punishing the players and fans - neither of whom did anything wrong?

Or you could fine them - but how much money would you need to fine Man Utd or Man City to make it worthwhile? A billion pounds? Two billion pounds?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why would you be expecting sanctions against them - what rules did they break?

And if so, what would any sanctions be? Would you not just be punishing the players and fans - neither of whom did anything wrong?

Or you could fine them - but how much money would you need to fine Man Utd or Man City to make it worthwhile? A billion pounds? Two billion pounds?

You mean in relation to the Super League? The twelve clubs did break the rules by signing a contract to establish a break away European competition without UEFA approval. That is against UEFA membership. As for fans being hurt, that happens for any sanctions e.g. points deductions for financial irregularities, which are also no fault of fans. I will be very surprised if something so serious - a secret conspiracy to destroy current competitions for their own enrichment - goes unpunished.

[CMurdoch]

Look at this James Hunt, skullet and all. "Are the Manchester United fans just customers to you"? Great question.


https://youtu.be/1zY4goGmpw4

All that way for that.
Probably spent days trying to find him.
Then that.
Pointless.

[surreyhibbie]

Why would you be expecting sanctions against them - what rules did they break?

And if so, what would any sanctions be? Would you not just be punishing the players and fans - neither of whom did anything wrong?

Or you could fine them - but how much money would you need to fine Man Utd or Man City to make it worthwhile? A billion pounds? Two billion pounds?

They failed to provide protection to the players and officials. - assuming you mean for the protest at Old Trafford?

I can see a points deduction maybe?