Midfield is the key?

[RIP]

Seeing Lewis take the field on Wednesday, reminded me of John Collins giving him a midfield slot against Killie in the 2007 LC Final. Lewis has always given his all on the pitch, showing 100% commitment in the tackle and thinking about every pass. That day he played alongside an experienced pair of Boozy and Broony and in front of a settled back line of Whitts, Hogg, Big Rob and Murphy. All seven were good in the tackle.

Then in the 2016 Scottish Cup Final and we had Fyvie, Dylan and Super J in midfield in front of another strong-tackling defensive line of Sir DG, Hanlon, Fontaine, McGregor and Lewis.

In the lean years between 2008 and 2014 we saw many journeymen midfielders passing through the club who failed to impress in a Hibs shirt. And with one or two exceptions, I maintain that the majority struggled to compete against the more robust-tackling teams in the SPL. I class many of them in the 'can't tackle or won't tackle' category. Some were reasonably ball players when Hibs were in posession - but very poor when the opposition had the ball. As a result, opposition teams would profit from running directly at our defence, safe in the knowledge that they wouldn't face a tough-tackling Hibs midfielder in their path.

On Saturday I'm sure we were all grateful for the heroics of a fully committed Alex Gogic. But of the remaining midfielders in the Hibs squad, who do we have that will show the same level of commitment to mark men, track runners or tackle for their life that our Motherwell, St Johnstone or Aberdeen opponents will demonstrate in our next three games?

[CapitalGreen]

But of the remaining midfielders in the Hibs squad, who do we have that will show the same level of commitment to mark men, track runners or tackle for their life that our Motherwell, St Johnstone or Aberdeen opponents will demonstrate in our next three games?

With the midfielders at these clubs possessing such high levels of commitment in comparison to ourselves it’s crazy that they all find themselves below us in the league.

[JimBHibees]

With the midfielders at these clubs possessing such high levels of commitment in comparison to ourselves it’s crazy that they all find themselves below us in the league.

:greengrin

[Hibernian Verse]

I'd just get rid of the whole squad except Gogic and buy St Johnstone and Aberdeen players to fill the gaps. We would be competing for the league not a lowly 3rd place.

[MWHIBBIES]

We have the 3rd best midfield in the league by a good way. Other huff and puff but quality has shown over the season.

[RIP]

With the midfielders at these clubs possessing such high levels of commitment in comparison to ourselves it’s crazy that they all find themselves below us in the league.

Missing the point - topic is midfield and one-off games, not league position
I'm not sure you thought through your reply. Has it not occurred to you that's because they didn't have Marciano in goals or Boyle, Nisbet or Doidge up front rather than them having an inferior midfield? We are miles ahead of these teams in terms of goals for but remain suspect in midfield battles.

St johnstone turned us over twice recently
Did any of us enjoy the sight of St Johnstone, a team with a greatly inferior strike force, using their extra midfield strength to beat us 3-0 in the cup and 1-0 in the league recently? We were soft as *** in midfield in both these games.

Motherwell also beat us easily
Also I'm sure nobody missed Motherwell running through our midfield when they cuffed us 2-0 recently. With nothing else to play for now other than cup glory, I don't anticipate them lacking any fight in the centre of the park tomorrow.

Cup game - who will be up for it in the engine room?
My question still stands. Who will be our midfield heroes in the cup this season? As we know from the StJ game, the cup can be a great leveller. We will need more than complacent remarks about league positions and our excellent front three to get us through to the semis.

[superfurryhibby]

The midfield is usually where the game is won and lost. Better players ours may be, but they need to give it everything and match the Mothers in effort and energy. I think we are well able to despatch Motherwell, with some aplomb.

[Greenbeard]

Much can be argued about the right blend in midfield covering a spoiler/hardman, a holder, a box-to-box, a spreader (to stop Hanlon thinking he is God's gift to the 60 yard diagonal), a visionist, a lock-picker, a set-piece man, a goal threat etc. In an ideal world you'd want to see each of our midfielders possessing all of these traits. I suppose it's more about the relative strength of each trait. If we had a midfield comprising players who were strong in all of these traits we'd be playing Champions League. And if you take Gogic as an example, massive strength in one aspect can still outweigh relative weakness in the others sufficiently to get your name first on the Hibs team sheet. The one trait I think all our midfield should have is "box-to-box". Folk keep saying we need one. But no way will you have a successful midfield if you only have one in your team. Each of them should have a good enough engine to get up and down the pitch.

[hibbysam]

Missing the point - topic is midfield and one-off games, not league position
I'm not sure you thought through your reply. Has it not occurred to you that's because they didn't have Marciano in goals or Boyle, Nisbet or Doidge up front rather than them having an inferior midfield? We are miles ahead of these teams in terms of goals for but remain suspect in midfield battles.

St johnstone turned us over twice recently
Did any of us enjoy the sight of St Johnstone, a team with a greatly inferior strike force, using their extra midfield strength to beat us 3-0 in the cup and 1-0 in the league recently? We were soft as *** in midfield in both these games.

Motherwell also beat us easily
Also I'm sure nobody missed Motherwell running through our midfield when they cuffed us 2-0 recently. With nothing else to play for now other than cup glory, I don't anticipate them lacking any fight in the centre of the park tomorrow.

Cup game - who will be up for it in the engine room?
My question still stands. Who will be our midfield heroes in the cup this season? As we know from the StJ game, the cup can be a great leveller. We will need more than complacent remarks about league positions and our excellent front three to get us through to the semis.

The St Johnstone cup tie, no sure if you watched it or not but it wasn’t to do with our midfield, unless you are wanting our midfield 3 to go up against their best players in the air. We pummelled them in midfield for half an hour but couldn’t score.

Our midfield aren’t perfect, they have off days, like our strikers have off days, Rocky makes some mistakes, but our midfield is far and away better than the other 9 teams in the league.

[Since452]

The St Johnstone cup tie, no sure if you watched it or not but it wasn’t to do with our midfield, unless you are wanting our midfield 3 to go up against their best players in the air. We pummelled them in midfield for half an hour but couldn’t score.

Our midfield aren’t perfect, they have off days, like our strikers have off days, Rocky makes some mistakes, but our midfield is far and away better than the other 9 teams in the league.

I agree. It was a simple case of not taking our chances then the heads dropping when we were hit with the sucker punch. Like you say we battered them and should have been out of sight after 30 mins. We were in a spell of being punished for not making our pressure count in games around then, Dundee United and Hearts semi spring to mind. We've come on massively since then and look far more mentally strong and patient. Got to give St Johnstone credit though as they aren't a bad side.

[Since90+2]

The St Johnstone cup tie, no sure if you watched it or not but it wasn’t to do with our midfield, unless you are wanting our midfield 3 to go up against their best players in the air. We pummelled them in midfield for half an hour but couldn’t score.

Our midfield aren’t perfect, they have off days, like our strikers have off days, Rocky makes some mistakes, but our midfield is far and away better than the other 9 teams in the league.

If you lose any match 3-0 your midfield hasn't performed.

You don't understand football if you think otherwise.

[Fergus52]

Seeing Lewis take the field on Wednesday, reminded me of John Collins giving him a midfield slot against Killie in the 2007 LC Final. Lewis has always given his all on the pitch, showing 100% commitment in the tackle and thinking about every pass. That day he played alongside an experienced pair of Boozy and Broony and in front of a settled back line of Whitts, Hogg, Big Rob and Murphy. All seven were good in the tackle.

Then in the 2016 Scottish Cup Final and we had Fyvie, Dylan and Super J in midfield in front of another strong-tackling defensive line of Sir DG, Hanlon, Fontaine, McGregor and Lewis.

In the lean years between 2008 and 2014 we saw many journeymen midfielders passing through the club who failed to impress in a Hibs shirt. And with one or two exceptions, I maintain that the majority struggled to compete against the more robust-tackling teams in the SPL. I class many of them in the 'can't tackle or won't tackle' category. Some were reasonably ball players when Hibs were in posession - but very poor when the opposition had the ball. As a result, opposition teams would profit from running directly at our defence, safe in the knowledge that they wouldn't face a tough-tackling Hibs midfielder in their path.

On Saturday I'm sure we were all grateful for the heroics of a fully committed Alex Gogic. But of the remaining midfielders in the Hibs squad, who do we have that will show the same level of commitment to mark men, track runners or tackle for their life that our Motherwell, St Johnstone or Aberdeen opponents will demonstrate in our next three games?

Newall and Irvine.

Newall makes the most tackles per game of any midfielder in our squad, by a quite a long way, making 1.8 per game compared to Gogic's 1.3. Over the course of a 38 game season thats quite a big difference.

Yet every week you see posts vaguely insinuating that Newall isn't good enough defensively or doesn't work hard enough, even though his defensive stats show thats nonsense. A player can be effective at winning the ball back without flying into 50/50s like Brown, shouldering folk like Bartley or having Gogic's size and presence.

[hibbysam]

If you lose any match 3-0 your midfield hasn't performed.

You don't understand football if you think otherwise.

We never lost 3-0 because of our midfield. We lost 3-0 because we never took our numerous huge chances (that our midfield created) and then couldn’t defend set pieces. Their midfield didn’t overrun us.

[Hibbyradge]

If you lose any match 3-0 your midfield hasn't performed.

You don't understand football if you think otherwise.

What if they go direct and bypass the middle?

[Fergus52]

On Saturday I'm sure we were all grateful for the heroics of a fully committed Alex Gogic. But of the remaining midfielders in the Hibs squad, who do we have that will show the same level of commitment to mark men, track runners or tackle for their life that our Motherwell, St Johnstone or Aberdeen opponents will demonstrate in our next three games?

I ranked the 3 players that have most commonly played centre mid in recent weeks for those sides you mentioned, based on tackles per game:




tackles per game


McCann
2.7


Campbell
1.9


Newall
1.8


Ferguson
1.8


Crawford
1.8


Campbell
1.4


Irvine
1.3


Gogic
1.3


Bryson
1.3


O'hara
1.2


Craig
1


Mcgeough
0.7



based on the above, I don't think we really need to worry about those three teams having much more battle in midfield.

Ali McCann makes a ridiculously high amount of tackles per game for St Johnstone, but is most often partnered with Craig who doesn't make many. Apart from him there isn't really much difference between the rest of the teams.

Newall makes as many tackles as Ferguson for Aberdeen, and only slightly less than Campbell for Motherwell. When you consider the decent contributions from Gogic and Irvine as well, I don't think we have anything to worry about with regards to winning the ball back in midfield compared to those teams.

Motherwell, St Johnstone and Aberdeen will often only start 2 of those players as well, whereas we have nearly always started those three in recent weeks.

[Since90+2]

What if they go direct and bypass the middle?

Professional football teams don't "bypass the middle".

[04Sauzee]

I ranked the 3 players that have most commonly played centre mid in recent weeks for those sides you mentioned, based on tackles per game:




tackles per game


McCann
2.7


Campbell
1.9


Newall
1.8


Ferguson
1.8


Crawford
1.8


Campbell
1.4


Irvine
1.3


Gogic
1.3


Bryson
1.3


O'hara
1.2


Craig
1


Mcgeough
0.7



based on the above, I don't think we really need to worry about those three teams having much more battle in midfield.

Ali McCann makes a ridiculously high amount of tackles per game for St Johnstone, but is most often partnered with Craig who doesn't make many. Apart from him there isn't really much difference between the rest of the teams.

Newall makes as many tackles as Ferguson for Aberdeen, and only slightly less than Campbell for Motherwell. When you consider the decent contributions from Gogic and Irvine as well, I don't think we have anything to worry about with regards to winning the ball back in midfield compared to those teams.

Motherwell, St Johnstone and Aberdeen will often only start 2 of those players as well, whereas we have nearly always started those three in recent weeks.


Love looking at stats like this, love to see something similar with Blocks and interceptions for these players. I'm sure Gogic disrupts play not just with tackles but getting his body in the way to make interceptions and blocks? I could be way off the mark

[hibbysam]

Professional football teams don't "bypass the middle".

Central midfielders also have very little bearing on your big centre halves losing aerial duals from set pieces. Or wingers/strikers missing sitters.

[Hibbyradge]

Professional football teams don't "bypass the middle".

Of course they do. Route one football.

Hanlon, for example, regularly plays the ball long as does Porteous.

[Eyrie]

Love looking at stats like this, love to see something similar with Blocks and interceptions for these players. I'm sure Gogic disrupts play not just with tackles but getting his body in the way to make interceptions and blocks? I could be way off the mark

Think it was Maldini who said there was something wrong if he had to make a tackle.

I'd consider interceptions and successful tackles together when evaluating a player's defensive contribution. Ideally I'd like a way to include positioning, but it can be difficult to decide if a pass was prevented by the defender's positioning compared to the ball carrier not seeing it or making a different choice.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Without being being hoity-toity, most games where we have come of second best have been down to our own frailties and propensity to shoot ourselves in the foot rather than being outplayed. If we play to the right tempo from the first whistle and don't spurn chances then we have more to be feared rather than fear.

[Fergus52]

Think it was Maldini who said there was something wrong if he had to make a tackle.

I'd consider interceptions and successful tackles together when evaluating a player's defensive contribution. Ideally I'd like a way to include positioning, but it can be difficult to decide if a pass was prevented by the defender's positioning compared to the ball carrier not seeing it or making a different choice.

I love that quote but he was specifically talking about playing in defence when he said it.

The OP was talking about our squads supposed lack of ability/determination to win the ball back in midfield which is why I posted the number of tackles made per game.

[Fergus52]

Love looking at stats like this, love to see something similar with Blocks and interceptions for these players. I'm sure Gogic disrupts play not just with tackles but getting his body in the way to make interceptions and blocks? I could be way off the mark

There's the same players interceptions per game




Interceptions per game


Crawford
2


Irvine
1.9


Gogic
1.5


McCann
1.5


Campbell
1.4


Ferguson
1.3


Bryson
1.3


Craig
1.2


Newall
1.1


O'hara
0.9


Campbell
0.8


Mcgeough
0.5





Newell's numbers fall a way a bit here, but Irvine's are excellent. Newall's interceptions per game were much higher when I looked before a couple of months ago, so I think in the new system he has been making less with Gogic and Irvine doing that side of things more.

For blocks, Newall makes 0.3 per game and Gogic 0.5. But I think the main difference there is how much deeper Gogic plays when we're without the ball - if you're spending a lot of time in your own box defending then you're gonna make more blocks.

[04Sauzee]

There's the same players interceptions per game




Interceptions per game


Crawford
2


Irvine
1.9


Gogic
1.5


McCann
1.5


Campbell
1.4


Ferguson
1.3


Bryson
1.3


Craig
1.2


Newall
1.1


O'hara
0.9


Campbell
0.8


Mcgeough
0.5





Newell's numbers fall a way a bit here, but Irvine's are excellent. Newall's interceptions per game were much higher when I looked before a couple of months ago, so I think in the new system he has been making less with Gogic and Irvine doing that side of things more.

For blocks, Newall makes 0.3 per game and Gogic 0.5. But I think the main difference there is how much deeper Gogic plays when we're without the ball - if you're spending a lot of time in your own box defending then you're gonna make more blocks.
Cheers Fergus much appreciated

[Greenbeard]

Love looking at stats like this, love to see something similar with Blocks and interceptions for these players. I'm sure Gogic disrupts play not just with tackles but getting his body in the way to make interceptions and blocks? I could be way off the mark
Agree Gogic does much more good defensive work on top of just tackles. He also frequently just gets in the way to slow the opposition down or make them turn and play it back.

[Fergus52]

Think it was Maldini who said there was something wrong if he had to make a tackle.

I'd consider interceptions and successful tackles together when evaluating a player's defensive contribution. Ideally I'd like a way to include positioning, but it can be difficult to decide if a pass was prevented by the defender's positioning compared to the ball carrier not seeing it or making a different choice.

There you go:




combined tackles and interceptions p90


McCann
4.2


Crawford
3.8


Campbell
3.3


Irvine
3.2


Ferguson
3.1


Newall
2.9


Gogic
2.8


Bryson
2.6


Campbell
2.2


Craig
2.2


O'hara
2.1


Mcgeough
1.2





Ali McCann and Robbie Crawford have really good numbers for winning the ball back.

But apart from those two, our three centre midfielders as good defensively as any other midfielders at Aberdeen, Motherwell or St Johnstone, and better than most of them.

[Eyrie]

There you go:




combined tackles and interceptions p90


McCann
4.2


Crawford
3.8


Campbell
3.3


Irvine
3.2


Ferguson
3.1


Newall
2.9


Gogic
2.8


Bryson
2.6


Campbell
2.2


Craig
2.2


O'hara
2.1


Mcgeough
1.2




Ali McCann and Robbie Crawford have really good numbers for winning the ball back.

But apart from those two, our three centre midfielders as good defensively as any other midfielders at Aberdeen, Motherwell or St Johnstone, and better than most of them.
Much obliged, and agreed on how good we are.

[hibbysam]

There you go:




combined tackles and interceptions p90


McCann
4.2


Crawford
3.8


Campbell
3.3


Irvine
3.2


Ferguson
3.1


Newall
2.9


Gogic
2.8


Bryson
2.6


Campbell
2.2


Craig
2.2


O'hara
2.1


Mcgeough
1.2





Ali McCann and Robbie Crawford have really good numbers for winning the ball back.

But apart from those two, our three centre midfielders as good defensively as any other midfielders at Aberdeen, Motherwell or St Johnstone, and better than most of them.

You would also expect them to have higher stats based on how much off the ball work their teams require. We dominate the ball in a lot of games so less likely to require our midfielders to have high defensive stats.

[RIP]

For the record I’m a big fan of Newall and Irvine. I’m just keen to see them impose themselves more in the middle of the park. Let’s see how both get on today GGTTH

[nonshinyfinish]

Love looking at stats like this, love to see something similar with Blocks and interceptions for these players. I'm sure Gogic disrupts play not just with tackles but getting his body in the way to make interceptions and blocks? I could be way off the mark

I think the key thing that Gogic does a lot of (in addition to tackles/interceptions) is just slowing players down and taking the sting out of a counter attack. There were quite a few examples of this against Livi, where their player was breaking quickly, Gogic got on top of them and while he didn't win the ball, he stopped their momentum or forced them to go wide or turn back, allowing other Hibs players to get in position. Not sure if this shows up in any specific stat, but he's good at it.

[RIP]

Missing the point - topic is midfield and one-off games, not league position
I'm not sure you thought through your reply. Has it not occurred to you that's because they didn't have Marciano in goals or Boyle, Nisbet or Doidge up front rather than them having an inferior midfield? We are miles ahead of these teams in terms of goals for but remain suspect in midfield battles.

St johnstone turned us over twice recently
Did any of us enjoy the sight of St Johnstone, a team with a greatly inferior strike force, using their extra midfield strength to beat us 3-0 in the cup and 1-0 in the league recently? We were soft as *** in midfield in both these games.

Motherwell also beat us easily
Also I'm sure nobody missed Motherwell running through our midfield when they cuffed us 2-0 recently. With nothing else to play for now other than cup glory, I don't anticipate them lacking any fight in the centre of the park tomorrow.

Cup game - who will be up for it in the engine room?
My question still stands. Who will be our midfield heroes in the cup this season? As we know from the StJ game, the cup can be a great leveller. We will need more than complacent remarks about league positions and our excellent front three to get us through to the semis.

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

[Brightside]

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

Sign Campbell.

[Forza Fred]

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

I agree.

We huff and puff in the middle but rarely take control.

leadership is required.

I would be going for Jason Kerr of Saints in the summer too.

[B.H.F.C]

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

I’m not so sure there is a lack of fight. It’s more a lack of quality, certainly in an attacking sense.

Yesterday didn’t surprise me. As soon as I saw the team I wondered who was going to create anything. With that midfield, if you’re front two don’t score, you’re toiling.

[hibee-boys]

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.snot

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

They’re not even that good with the ball, Wright needs to be shifted on in the summer, can’t recall a signing who’s had such little impact as he’s had. Other than a couple of decent games when he first arrived I just don’t see what Irvine offers either. Newell saves most of his best play for when we’re cruising, really don’t trust him to contribute much as else.

[Broken Gnome]

After watching the fight go out of us in the last ten minutes of the ninety against Well, and tolerate yet another St Johnstone match where we fail to lay a glove on them I’m still convinced we have a weakness in midfield.

On the ball, Wright, Irvine and Newall may look good on paper. But when the opposition have the ball, they simply don’t have the fighting spirit of the Brown’s, Thomson’s, McGinn’s or Bartley’s.

When the going gets tough, they are simply not strong enough.

Unless it's going wide to Boyle or Doig, there's nothing that goes through the middle to get us 30 yards up the pitch. On the rare times we do play it out well from the back it's inevitably going sideways or backwards within seconds.

It's a total lack of movement through the middle basically, and there's never a good option for second/third/fourth balls that creates a bit of space. Turgid, and we've seen it far too many times for it not to be a pretty major issue.

[Halmyre Hibee]

We’ve had a weak midfield since the break up of our cup winning team. This needs to be addressed for next season otherwise we will struggle to stay in the top 3.

[H18S NX]

They’re not even that good with the ball, Wright needs to be shifted on in the summer, can’t recall a signing who’s had such little impact as he’s had. Other than a couple of decent games when he first arrived I just don’t see what Irvine offers either. Newell saves most of his best play for when we’re cruising, really don’t trust him to contribute much as else......Tend to agree with you there.

[RIP]

After watching Irvine, Hallberg and Gogic get stuck in against the Dons I’d like to see that trio start against Saints. We control the middle of the park better with tough tacklers in the centre circle and height for when StJ start their usual Head Tennis.

What midfield combination would you play to overcome the team that has dominated us in the middle recently?