Left/Right/Centre: what are your politics?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not looking for a political debate here, just a general sweep of the Hibs support. How would you generally define yourself: left wing, right wing or centrist? Of course it depends upon how we define each, but in general terms we all know roughly how we line up.

I'm confident the Hibs fanbase is generally left of centre. I cast the first vote that way.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not looking for a political debate here, just a general sweep of the Hibs support. How would generally define yourself: left wing, right wing or centrist? Of course it depends upon how we define each, but in general terms we all know roughly how we line up.

I'm confident the Hibs fanbase is generally left of centre. I cast the first vote that way.

Slightly left of centre is how I would describe myself. However in todays political spectrum I'm probably viewed like Fidel Castro.

[hibsbollah]

Centrist. Aren’t we all? :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I'd personally describe myself as centre right although on here I'm sure I'd be described as much further to the right.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Centrist. Aren’t we all? :greengrin

I always had you down as a good socialist. Just shows you. :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'd personally describe myself as centre right although on here I'm sure I'd be described as much further to the right.

I always call you Norman Tebbit, but in an affectionate way :greengrin

[Future17]

I've never thought about it much, but would have guessed centrist.

I took a test on www.politicalcompass.org and it turns out I'm a left leaning libertarian!

[CropleyWasGod]

I've never thought about it much, but would have guessed centrist.

I took a test on www.politicalcompass.org and it turns out I'm a left leaning libertarian!

Very left and very libertarian apparently 😉

[Hibernia&Alba]

I've never thought about it much, but would have guessed centrist.

I took a test on www.politicalcompass.org (http://www.politicalcompass.org) and it turns out I'm a left leaning libertarian!


Very left and very libertarian apparently 😉

Me too, though it was hardly a shock.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm slightly to the left of and more of a libertarian than Gandhi!

[Sir David Gray]

I always call you Norman Tebbit, but in an affectionate way :greengrin

Thanks. :greengrin

[Lancs Harp]

Somewhere off to the left

[Hibrandenburg]

Very left and very libertarian apparently 😉

Same here, even more so than Gandhi apparently. Think that's a crock of **** tbh.

[stu in nottingham]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.56

[Smartie]

Quite interesting, really.

Fairly left, very libertarian.

Which sounds about right.

I consider myself to be a centrist but that’s because my more extreme right and left views probably cancel each other out and land up a bit to the left.

I’m very left on things like education. But if I thought we had more by way of equality of opportunity then we could have freer markets and a more right wing approach.

As it happens we have a deeply unfair society with appalling inequalities of opportunity so all sorts of intervention is absolutely necessary.

Idealistically I’m probably more right wing, realistically more left.

And I think I could be anywhere on the spectrum depending on where I lived. I accept and respect that what works in one place for one people might not work in another and it’s up to those people to decide.

I also tend to feel like a fish out of water wherever I am. There are few people who seem to hold similar views to me and I’m always to the right or left of whoever I’m with. I’d quite like to have a neatly pigeon holed set of beliefs but it doesn’t work like that.

[Bangkok Hibby]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.56

Looks exactly like mine.

[1875godsgift]

I'm more lefty / anarchist than Ghandi apparently.

I was going to do it again pretending I'm Margaret Thatcher but just the thought of trying to think the way she did makes my brain ache.

So I won't!

[WeeRussell]

Another lefty ✋🏻

[CloudSquall]

Centro left economically, centre right(ish) on social aspects.

[Dalianwanda]

left libertarian

[Crunchie]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.56
I'm in the red zone bottom row square 7

[Pretty Boy]

Stuck way down in the bottom left corner of the green square.

Not surprising although some of the questions are pretty broad and leading.

[calumhibee1]

Left/Libertarian

2 along, 4 down.

Not a fan of some of the questions though.

[Crunchie]

Stuck way down in the bottom left corner of the green square.

Not surprising although some of the questions are pretty broad and leading.
Yes, I could have answered differently to many questions on another day. I used to consider myself to be slightly left of centre back in the day, now I'd say I was slightly right of centre.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210411/cb4ba57376c0081302aeb287f854a9e4.jpg
Always thought of myself as slightly right of centre economically and very much libertarian. I have been moving slightly left with all the corruption and tax evasion that now seems to be the norm in the UK now but didn’t expect to be that far over.


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[danhibees1875]

I'd have said centrist before the test, with a few issues I'm more left on. 4 to the left and 4 to libertarian probably reflects that, seems to be a bit more central than others have been anyway.

Not sure how easy it is/should be to so broadly define your political beliefs anyway - I would guess people vary across the spectrum depending on the topic.

[Northernhibee]

I've never thought about it much, but would have guessed centrist.

I took a test on www.politicalcompass.org and it turns out I'm a left leaning libertarian!

According to that I’m like a more liberal Gandhi, which I will absolutely be referring to myself as such in the future.

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210411/cb4ba57376c0081302aeb287f854a9e4.jpg
Always thought of myself as slightly right of centre economically and very much libertarian. I have been moving slightly left with all the corruption and tax evasion that now seems to be the norm in the UK now but didn’t expect to be that far over.


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While since I’ve done political compass. I’d love to dee the results aggregated on a regional basis. It would confirm whether England is as right wing as it votes (London excepted).

Centre left, myself. Which is why I couldn’t find anyone to vote for last election. Regretting not voting for PR when I had the chance!

[Hibbyradge]

https://i.postimg.cc/13QZPNjM/Screenshot-20210411-091625-Chrome.jpg

[greenlex]

Without doing the test I’m centre left. I’d jail all Tories but only because I think shooting them is just too much.

[The Harp Awakes]

I'm Ghandi.

[hibsbollah]

I’ve done the test a few times over the years. I always get very similar results!

It’s all about how the proposition is worded. For example ‘’One family should sit at the head of a nation state, embody all the national characteristics of that nation, and retain large amounts of wealth and military and economic power’. I would always answer that question Disagree. But everyones always going to do some mental gymnastics before answering that question based on your own belief system about your belief system :greengrin

If you’d just watched a one hour documentary about the Kims in North Korea and then been asked that question, you’re going to get different immediate reactions and therefore results than if you’d just watched an episode of the crown. And if you’ve grown up thinking of yourself as a U.K. Royalist or as a loyal subject of Kim Il Sung. Even being asked the question might seem controversial or like trolling because of your prejudices. Its still a good exercise though.

[Future17]

I’ve done the test a few times over the years. I always get very similar results!

It’s all about how the proposition is worded. For example ‘’One family should sit at the head of a nation state, embody all the national characteristics of that nation, and retain large amounts of wealth and military and economic power’. I would always answer that question Disagree. But everyones always going to do some mental gymnastics before answering that question based on your own belief system about your belief system :greengrin

If you’d just watched a one hour documentary about the Kims in North Korea and then been asked that question, you’re going to get different immediate reactions and therefore results than if you’d just watched an episode of the crown. And if you’ve grown up thinking of yourself as a U.K. Royalist or as a loyal subject of Kim Il Sung. Even being asked the question might seem controversial or like trolling because of your prejudices. Its still a good exercise though.

That would very much depend on the episode! :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

That would very much depend on the episode! :greengrin

Can't wait to see the one when they all get carted off in chains.

[Keith_M]

I'm a Marxist, Authoritarian, Free-Thinking Thatcherite with Socialist Tendencies.


That's why my shrink makes a fortune out of me.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm a Marxist, Authoritarian, Free-Thinking Thatcherite with Socialist Tendencies.


That's why my shrink makes a fortune out of me.

Yeah, but what about your wife?


:notebook at the ready smiley:

[Keith_M]

Yeah, but what about your wife?


:notebook at the ready smiley:



I believe she's next in line for Kim Jong-un's job.

[StevieC]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-6.75&soc=-6.56

You’ve sunk my battleship!

[Colr]

I'm Ghandi.

Not in your sleeping arrangements, I hope.

[weecounty hibby]

Wonder how many different dots George Galloway would have had over the years??!!

[Ozyhibby]

Wonder how many different dots George Galloway would have had over the years??!!

Years?[emoji23]


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[wookie70]

Very left
24556

[Hibs90]

Without doing the test I’m centre left. I’d jail all Tories but only because I think shooting them is just too much.


:not worth


Probably about right for me. I am also Ghandi.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-4.88&soc=-5.08

[sleeping giant]

Looks exactly like mine.

And mine.

[matty_f]

Very left and very libertarian apparently 😉

Same here. Not a huge surprise to me!

[matty_f]

Very left
24556

That’s what mine looked like :agree:

[wookie70]

That’s what mine looked like :agree:

Not many of us left these days.

[Skol]

Three squares to the left and bang on the horizontal black line. Guess that’s just about as central as you can get

[HiBremian]

Politically, I believe I’m described as a water melon.


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[Renfrew_Hibby]

Like most Scots of both yes/no persuasions... just left of centre.

Most English are, deep down, just right of centre. There in lies the problem.

[stu in nottingham]

Like most Scots of both yes/no persuasions... just left of centre.

Most English are, deep down, just right of centre. There in lies the problem.

Nottingham hasn't had anything other than a Labour City Council since 1997.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Nottingham hasn't had anything other than a Labour City Council since 1997.

I'm talking more about social attitudes rather than how one votes. We now have a Tory government more in tune now with you average English persons thoughts on the world, perhaps for the first time in 3 decades, there in lies Sir Keirs problem.

[Hibbyradge]

You’ve sunk my battleship!

:greengrin

Very good!

[stu in nottingham]

I'm talking more about social attitudes rather than how one votes. We now have a Tory government more in tune now with you average English persons thoughts on the world, perhaps for the first time in 3 decades, there in lies Sir Keirs problem.

You may be right, I'm not sure but I can why you'd say that as I've often considered it myself. The English people I associate with from all backgrounds are not particularly in tune with the Tories at all but there's probably probably a few good reasons for that.

I think a heavy vote purely for Brexit in the last election when Labour wouldn't confirm their stance one way or another may be conflating things but then I suppose you could relate that to the right. I think Starmer's main problem might well turn out to be himself and the deep divisions in his party which mean his party are not seen as a realistic challenge to the Tories, sadly.

[wookie70]

Nottingham hasn't had anything other than a Labour City Council since 1997.

So right of centre since 1997. What were they before that. To me the centre ground has shifted massively and the Blair government was slightly right of centre if you were to view it through the eyes of when I got interested in politics in the early 80s. I'm left and getting lefter with a hint of tree hugger thrown in for good measure as I get older.

[Kato]

I'm talking more about social attitudes rather than how one votes. We now have a Tory government more in tune now with you average English persons thoughts on the world, perhaps for the first time in 3 decades, there in lies Sir Keirs problem.

Doesn't pan out when policies are asked about without a party name being applied. Labour policies, last time I saw one which was under Corbyn, came out on top.

There was also a poll done which revealed some people as "hating" Corbyn but when asked particularly why they couldn't give a reason.

I think emotion, propaganda, the BBC slanting coverage and social media have swayed people to the Torys, not their "thoughts on the world" and let's face it there is a huge swathe of the electorate don't have any actual thoughts on the world beyond what they are actually instructed to think.

[Hibbyradge]

So right of centre since 1997. What were they before that. To me the centre ground has shifted massively and the Blair government was slightly right of centre if you were to view it through the eyes of when I got interested in politics in the early 80s. I'm left and getting lefter with a hint of tree hugger thrown in for good measure as I get older.

The Blair government was right of centre?

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

[greenlex]

The Blair government was right of centre?

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.
aye but apart from that what did they ever do for us?

[hibsbollah]

The Blair government was right of centre?

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

...just off the top of your head? :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

...just off the top of your head? :greengrin

It's a handy thing, bookmarking 😊

[stu in nottingham]

So right of centre since 1997. What were they before that. .

I highly doubt you'd think a majority of people were right of centre in the various inner-city communities involved! :faf:

To answer your question, pre-1997 in the previous 25 years since boundary changes Labour held Nottingham for 19 of them. That's Labour in power 43 out of the past 49 years. Pretty left-wing I'd suggest.

How would Edinburgh compare with that out of interest? In terms of a right-left Tory-Labour split.

[Keith_M]

Like most Scots of both yes/no persuasions... just left of centre.

Most English are, deep down, just right of centre. There in lies the problem.


That's quite a generalisation, surely.

[Pretty Boy]

I remember not long before the 2010 general election reading an opinion piece in the Guardian. The gist of it was that whilst the prospect of a Tory govt unsettled the author it was no more terrifying than 4 or 5 more years of Brown's Labour and the warmongers both in his cabinet and on the backbenches.

How has that worked out? New Labour wasn't really what I wanted from a govt but if it's a choice between that watered down centrist wooing Labour tribute act or actual Tories then it's a ****ing no brainer.

[Bishop Hibee]

I put left wing but I'm what would be regarded as a social conservative on sone issues.

[wookie70]

The Blair government was right of centre?

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

He continued on with many of the Themes of Thatcherism too. Trade Union Rights not restored, no renationalisation, NHS continued to be privatised bit by bit(PFI in NHS and Education a disaster and great way to make the rich richer), introduced University Tuition fees(albeit means tested), markets continued to be deregulated, right to buy not reversed and no real house building programme not to mention an Illegal War. That is all right wing policy as far as I am concerned.

Lots of the points you note I would of course be in favour of but they also need some context. The first one I looked at because it needed more context than most was Overseas aid. Looking here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/771136/Statistics-on-International-Development-Final-UK-Aid-Spend-2017-jan-revisions.pdf)at International Development Aid it appears that proportionately aid fell under Blair. Perhaps more money but not as a proportion of GNI

Another that caught my attention was winter fuel payments (https://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn105.pdf). A good thing no doubt but they could afford it as Labour were spending less per pensioner as a proportion of national income when they left than when they arrived.

Look at the amount of GDP spent on Public Spending. Barring the post recession period there isn't a great deal between what Thatcher and Blair spent as a proportion of GDP. New Labour were actually pretty frugal and were in surplus for a few years.

The rich were not taxed any more and of course VAT, one of the most regressive taxes, went up under New Labour, twice.

Health and Education were protected and attempts made to undo the damage Thatcher caused. The boom certainly helped but, given deregulation was at least part of the cause of the boom, it has to be counterweighted at least partially against the bust. Labour could have spent so much more on the social fabric, it could have rebuilt communities with new industries diversifying, the economy and helping flatten any future crashes. Hindsight was not required for that and they had a boom period where they really could have achieved a great deal.

We needed a heart transplant and got a few stookies to help mend the bones the Tories had most seriously broken. New Labour had both the time and the money, a rare opportunity for a Labour Government and while they were much better than the alternative I still think they failed measuring progress against opportunity.

I was a bit over zealous with right wing and Centre would probably be a better description of New Labour but Pragmatic would be the best description. I am a typical Loonie Leftie. I want it all and it is a matter of principle. I'd forsake power for those principles. Blair would sell his Granny for power imo. I don't think he really held many beliefs and managed by what ideas were popular. Fortunately for most of us the NHS and Education are deemed to be popular.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The Blair government was right of centre?

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

He continued the long process of divorce between the labour and workers by removing clause 4 from the party's constitution, i.e. abandoning the goal of common ownership of industry. If that's not a lurch to the right, i don't know what is.

As a natural consequence of the above, he oversaw a continuation of Thatcher's privatisation of industries, albeit under the guise of PPE.

He engaged in imperialist wars to promote neo-liberal economies oil interests, and was a lap dog to the worst President in living memory, including Trump, when you look at the carnage inflicted upon the middle east. This has, of course, been an arena of deadly interference by countries on the left and the right, but Blair's involvement was very much for the benefit of high-capitalism.

He maintained Thatcher's right to buy policy without mitigating the damage it does to the housing market by building sufficient social housing.

He maintained Thatcher's brutal employment reforms, against the wishes of the unions.

He continued the deregulation of the financial sector, though to be fair, this worked out fi...oh wait.

Above all, Thatcher claimed that Blair was her greatest achievement, because she "changed the opposition".

Blair promoted neo-liberal policies sugared with populist sops, a few desperately needed positive social reforms and a facade of keynsianism that barely disguised the fact that he was as much a product of Thatcher as he was any figure in the history of the labour party.

[Hibbyradge]

Blair promoted neo-liberal policies sugared with populist sops, a few desperately needed positive social reforms and a facade of keynsianism that barely disguised the fact that he was as much a product of Thatcher as he was any figure in the history of the labour party.

And 10 years of the best government this country has had dismissed in one paragraph. Needless to say, I disagree with you, but what has any other Labour leader done for the people since you've had the vote?

Your answer won't need a paragraph.

[Bangkok Hibby]

That's quite a generalisation, surely.

But true I feel. I've worked with English and Scots for 50 years. The English working class (of which I know many) have shifted right in their thoughts, arguments, bar chat, locker room outbursts. Opinion polls also tell us how England thinks.

[AgentDaleCooper]

And 10 years of the best government this country has had dismissed in one paragraph. Needless to say, I disagree with you, but what has any other Labour leader done for the people since you've had the vote?

Your answer won't need a paragraph.

Well Ed Miliband, at the very least, democratised the Labour party a bit, and Jeremy Corbyn has been a lightening rod for genuinely left-wing politics, despite not actually being very left-wing himself - all he wanted to do was return to post-war Keynsianism, and apply some sticking plasters to capitalism that would inevitably erode.

Your premise appears to be that because Blair won elections, he was a good labour leader. The trajectory of his policies have been a disaster for working people, and this is precisely why he won elections. He made deals with just about every devil he could to win power.

Whether you like him or not, Corbyn could have won the 2017 election if he didn't have a million Blairite knives sticking out of his back by that early point. Blair is a moral vacuum who hates the left.

You say i dismissed him with one paragraph - i think i substantiated this with the ones before it. Wookie70 probably did a better job than me of describing some of Blair's shortcomings...care to respond to them?

[AgentDaleCooper]

And 10 years of the best government this country has had dismissed in one paragraph. Needless to say, I disagree with you, but what has any other Labour leader done for the people since you've had the vote?

Your answer won't need a paragraph.
Also...ask a Syrian what they make of Blair's legacy. Wtf man.

[SHODAN]

Solid left.

[Hibbyradge]

Well Ed Miliband, at the very least, democratised the Labour party a bit, and Jeremy Corbyn has been a lightening rod for genuinely left-wing politics, despite not actually being very left-wing himself - all he wanted to do was return to post-war Keynsianism, and apply some sticking plasters to capitalism that would inevitably erode.

Your premise appears to be that because Blair won elections, he was a good labour leader. The trajectory of his policies have been a disaster for working people, and this is precisely why he won elections. He made deals with just about every devil he could to win power.

Whether you like him or not, Corbyn could have won the 2017 election if he didn't have a million Blairite knives sticking out of his back by that early point. Blair is a moral vacuum who hates the left.

You say i dismissed him with one paragraph - i think i substantiated this with the ones before it. Wookie70 probably did a better job than me of describing some of Blair's shortcomings...care to respond to them?

Every leader has shortcomings, and of course Iraq was a mistake, but Blair is literally the only leader who has done anything at all for the people of this country.

I voted Labour when Corbyn was leader, but he had no chance of winning a general election. It's convenient to blame his opponents within the Party, but the truth is that the country didn't trust him because of his own previous actions which the media exploited and exaggerated as we knew they would.

His words and actions on Brexit were an absolute disgrace and he must shoulder a great deal of blame for us leaving the EU.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Every leader has shortcomings, and of course Iraq was a mistake, but Blair is literally the only leader who has done anything at all for the people of this country.

I voted Labour when Corbyn was leader, but he had no chance of winning a general election. It's convenient to blame his opponents within the Party, but the truth is that the country didn't trust him because of his own previous actions which the media exploited and exaggerated as we knew they would.

His words and actions on Brexit were an absolute disgrace and he must shoulder a great deal of blame for us leaving the EU.

how you can accuse me as writing off Blair in a paragraph, then brush off the Iraq war as 'a mistake', is, to me, utterly mental. Creating a hellscape that sees two countries pretty much burned to the ground, and doing so on completely false pretences (do you really think it was just because Saddam was a nasty nasty man...?!) is an unmitigated humanitarian disaster, not a mistake. (a side note - interestingly, Biden's administration are already trying to rehabilitate Al Qaeda, with the leader of their Syrian front Mohammad al-Jolani appearing on Frontline over in the states...this is how utterly crooked the so called 'left' in the west really is)


R.e. Corbyn - do you honestly think that the majority of the PLP banging on, as you have done, about Corbyn having 'no chance of winning an election' had zero impact on the result of the election? Do you not think that it might have been something of a self fulfilling prophecy? The right wing of the Labour party stopped at nothing to attack his credibility, yet he succeeded in winning the second largest vote-share a labour leader has won in a general election since 1970. I honestly do not know how you can say that he had no chance of winning, and I struggle to believe that you really think that the PLP didn't seriously undermine his efforts to do so in their relentless bid to de-legitimise him.

The fact is, Corbyn demonstrated that there is a strong, popular desire for actual left-wing politics across the UK.

Regarding Brexit - he certainly hurt his chances of winning the liberal-England vote on this front, and it was probably a strategic mistake, but I honestly believe that a Corbyn-led Brexit would have been a very good thing. We had every possibility of a Norway-type agreement, or some variation. Given the outcome of the referendum (which was, I acknowledge, a s***-show), a very, very soft Brexit would have been the best possible outcome, and could well have been better than being in the thing in the first place.

The main criticism that can be aimed at Corbyn regarding Brexit was that he stuck to his principles and let those that believed in the EU get on with arguing the case for it. A lot of people didn't like that, and it cost him votes, but I'd personally prefer a humanitarian that sticks to his beliefs over...well...Blair.

[wookie70]

Every leader has shortcomings, and of course Iraq was a mistake, but Blair is literally the only leader who has done anything at all for the people of this country.

I voted Labour when Corbyn was leader, but he had no chance of winning a general election. It's convenient to blame his opponents within the Party, but the truth is that the country didn't trust him because of his own previous actions which the media exploited and exaggerated as we knew they would.

His words and actions on Brexit were an absolute disgrace and he must shoulder a great deal of blame for us leaving the EU.

I think there are other leaders who have achieved more than Blair but not since the 70s. I think that is the main issue when judging him. Just as it is easy for Sturgeon to look good when compared to Johnson so it is easy for Blair to look left of centre with some compassion when viewed against Thatcher, Cameron, Johnson and May. I voted for him first time out in the hope he was going to change Britain and that he needed to get in power to do that. Yes he was much better than what he followed and what followed him but he was well short of what I want from a Labour Leader.

When Labour does get in it needs to be radical and Blair just added a spoonful of sugar to capitalism. He might have shoved a few quid where most of us would wanted it to go but the fundamentals of Neoliberalism remained unchanged and even promoted. He gave some of the metaphorical milk back that Thatcher snatched but he should have been building State owned dairies with government money to deliver it. Instead he PPE or PFI'd the dairies making sure they were crippled and that those with capital benefitted massively while Public Services had a shadow of expensive debt over them for decades to come.

Blair is no Clement Attlee who put in place most of the social fabric that citizens in the UK often to forget is a relatively new thing. It is fairly telling that Blair will be remembered most for an illegal war costing lives and Billions of pounds and tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives. A war based on a lie but a lie he looked incredibly comfortable telling.

[Smartie]

I’m not going to defend Blair here as I have many of the same issues with him as others, but it’s stark raving bonkers to think that he wasn’t/ isn’t infinitely preferable to any number of alternatives.

This is the greatest problem that “the left” have - that too many of them would rather be the opposition and have principles than actually be in power improving people’s lives, albeit maybe with having to compromise here and there.

Blair needed the Murdoch media onside during his era, and that might not have happened had he been more radical. We might have ended up with some nugget like Ian Duncan-Smith instead - a few lefties might have been a bit happier about themselves but the lot of the British working class would have been significantly worse.

It’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out in future on the media front, with the print media carrying less clout. With social media being what it is and the young moving in a leftwards direction when it comes to voting intention, I could certainly imagine a charismatic, credible left wing Labour Party coming to power. Not sure who might lead it, not sure it could be anyone we know about at this point but I think it could happen.

Blair was just a man of his time, and for many people it was a decent time overall.

Not for those in Iraq though, and that war - you just can’t get away from it.

[Hibbyradge]

how you can accuse me as writing off Blair in a paragraph, then brush off the Iraq war as 'a mistake', is, to me, utterly mental. Creating a hellscape that sees two countries pretty much burned to the ground, and doing so on completely false pretences (do you really think it was just because Saddam was a nasty nasty man...?!) is an unmitigated humanitarian disaster, not a mistake. (a side note - interestingly, Biden's administration are already trying to rehabilitate Al Qaeda, with the leader of their Syrian front Mohammad al-Jolani appearing on Frontline over in the states...this is how utterly crooked the so called 'left' in the west really is)


R.e. Corbyn - do you honestly think that the majority of the PLP banging on, as you have done, about Corbyn having 'no chance of winning an election' had zero impact on the result of the election? Do you not think that it might have been something of a self fulfilling prophecy? The right wing of the Labour party stopped at nothing to attack his credibility, yet he succeeded in winning the second largest vote-share a labour leader has won in a general election since 1970. I honestly do not know how you can say that he had no chance of winning, and I struggle to believe that you really think that the PLP didn't seriously undermine his efforts to do so in their relentless bid to de-legitimise him.

The fact is, Corbyn demonstrated that there is a strong, popular desire for actual left-wing politics across the UK.

Regarding Brexit - he certainly hurt his chances of winning the liberal-England vote on this front, and it was probably a strategic mistake, but I honestly believe that a Corbyn-led Brexit would have been a very good thing. We had every possibility of a Norway-type agreement, or some variation. Given the outcome of the referendum (which was, I acknowledge, a s***-show), a very, very soft Brexit would have been the best possible outcome, and could well have been better than being in the thing in the first place.

The main criticism that can be aimed at Corbyn regarding Brexit was that he stuck to his principles and let those that believed in the EU get on with arguing the case for it. A lot of people didn't like that, and it cost him votes, but I'd personally prefer a humanitarian that sticks to his beliefs over...well...Blair.

You were anti-Blair well before Iraq, but we're just rehearsing the same old arguments and I can't be bothered because it's absolutely pointless.

I'm right, you're wrong. You're right, I'm wrong.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-5.38&soc=-7.59

It’s all very well in the abstract though. In my experience when people say “the rich should pay more tax” they often mean “the richer than me”.

I live a reasonably content and well off life but it’s frustrating that I’m well over halfway through it and though a lot of things get better there is still so much injustice and inequality around. I don’t believe there is any chance of Britain shaking off its post-imperial hangover and all the willy waving militarism and class ridden deferential pish that goes with it. Not in my lifetime anyway. It’s why I’m so impatient for us to get on with indy to prove to me we can do so much better before I’m deid in a box.

Edit to say this is not Scottish exceptionalism. But the baggage of the British state needs a metaphorical bomb under it. I think our Indy will ultimately lead to reform in England too.

[Smartie]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-5.38&soc=-7.59

It’s all very well in the abstract though. In my experience when people say “the rich should pay more tax” they often mean “the richer than me”.

I live a reasonably content and well off life but it’s frustrating that I’m well over halfway through it and though a lot of things get better there is still so much injustice and inequality around. I don’t believe there is any chance of Britain shaking off its post-imperial hangover and all the willy waving militarism and class ridden deferential pish that goes with it. Not in my lifetime anyway. It’s why I’m so impatient for us to get on with indy to prove to me we can do so much better before I’m deid in a box.

Edit to say this is not Scottish exceptionalism. But the baggage of the British state needs a metaphorical bomb under it. I think our Indy will ultimately lead to reform in England too.

I think our independence would be absolutely brilliant for England, on a number of levels.

[AgentDaleCooper]

You were anti-Blair well before Iraq, but we're just rehearsing the same old arguments and I can't be bothered because it's absolutely pointless.

I'm right, you're wrong. You're right, I'm wrong.

I was 9 when Blair got into power. You don't have an argument, you just keep repeating the absurd, verging on nihilistic refrain of "what has any other labour leader done for us?". As i understand it, this sort of "pragmatism" urges any leader to bend over to every toxic power broker that demands they do so, and we the voters should settle for an eternity of lesser-evilism, disregarding the effects this has on the long term hopes of working people, and the devastating effects it has on entire regions in the middle east.

I'm wouldn't go as far as to say that "i am right", but i can't see any reason to agree with you, based on anything you have said.

The main point of our debate here, though, is whether Blair was on the left. He wasn't. He had some policy successes, which any government will have, even Tories, but being on the left means empowering working people - that is the essence of it. Blair was not interested in this, actively undermined it when in power, and opposed Corbyn because he threatened to strengthen workers' power. Blair was not left wing - he was centre right. He believed in corporate power, financial deregulation, with some benefits trickling down to workers. That is pretty much the essence of the centre right.

[Hibbyradge]

I was 9 when Blair got into power. You don't have an argument, you just keep repeating the absurd, verging on nihilistic refrain of "what has any other labour leader done for us?". As i understand it, this sort of "pragmatism" urges any leader to bend over to every toxic power broker that demands they do so, and we the voters should settle for an eternity of lesser-evilism, disregarding the effects this has on the long term hopes of working people, and the devastating effects it has on entire regions in the middle east.

I'm wouldn't go as far as to say that "i am right", but i can't see any reason to agree with you, based on anything you have said.

The main point of our debate here, though, is whether Blair was on the left. He wasn't. He had some policy successes, which any government will have, even Tories, but being on the left means empowering working people - that is the essence of it. Blair was not interested in this, actively undermined it when in power, and opposed Corbyn because he threatened to strengthen workers' power. Blair was not left wing - he was centre right. He believed in corporate power, financial deregulation, with some benefits trickling down to workers. That is pretty much the essence of the centre right.

I meant the left in the Labour Party, not specifically you. Sorry.

Of course I have arguments, but I genuinely can't be arsed rehearsing them again. I'm not going to persuade you so why should I bother when it's all in the past? That applies equally to Corbyn as it does Blair and I usually end up regretting responding to posts about either subject because it always ends up exactly as this has.

So, please accept my apologies, but I'm going to move on.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I meant the left in the Labour Party, not specifically you. Sorry.

Of course I have arguments, but I genuinely can't be arsed rehearsing them again. I'm not going to persuade you so why should I bother when it's all in the past? That applies equally to Corbyn as it does Blair and I usually end up regretting responding to posts about either subject because it always ends up exactly as this has.

So, please accept my apologies, but I'm going to move on.

Yeah, tbh i am very familiar with that feeling, no worries :aok:

My vitriol is intended for ideas and tendencies, not the individuals holding them, so apologies if i've come across as arrogant/condescending

[Hibbyradge]

Yeah, tbh i am very familiar with that feeling, no worries :aok:

My vitriol is intended for ideas and tendencies, not the individuals holding them, so apologies if i've come across as arrogant/condescending

:aok:

[AltheHibby]

Very left and very libertarian apparently 😉

Me too. I think if there was a 'neutral'choice in the questions I would be centre or slightly right; or a communist in American terms!

[Tommy75]

Without doing the test I’m centre left. I’d jail all Tories but only because I think shooting them is just too much.


I assume your comment was tongue in cheek but if you advocate locking up those with opposing political views to yourself - you are not centre left.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I assume your comment was tongue in cheek but if you advocate locking up those with opposing political views to yourself - you are not centre left.

Of course he was being tongue in cheek. I'd be interested to see the same poll on a Hearts forum and would take a guess it would be more evenly split. The staunch would demand to be heard.

[EI255]

Communist Hibernian.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

I think there are other leaders who have achieved more than Blair but not since the 70s. I think that is the main issue when judging him. Just as it is easy for Sturgeon to look good when compared to Johnson so it is easy for Blair to look left of centre with some compassion when viewed against Thatcher, Cameron, Johnson and May. I voted for him first time out in the hope he was going to change Britain and that he needed to get in power to do that. Yes he was much better than what he followed and what followed him but he was well short of what I want from a Labour Leader.

When Labour does get in it needs to be radical and Blair just added a spoonful of sugar to capitalism. He might have shoved a few quid where most of us would wanted it to go but the fundamentals of Neoliberalism remained unchanged and even promoted. He gave some of the metaphorical milk back that Thatcher snatched but he should have been building State owned dairies with government money to deliver it. Instead he PPE or PFI'd the dairies making sure they were crippled and that those with capital benefitted massively while Public Services had a shadow of expensive debt over them for decades to come.

Blair is no Clement Attlee who put in place most of the social fabric that citizens in the UK often to forget is a relatively new thing. It is fairly telling that Blair will be remembered most for an illegal war costing lives and Billions of pounds and tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives. A war based on a lie but a lie he looked incredibly comfortable telling.

So you are comparing Blair to almost every PM before or since since 1979.

So would that not make him the best in memory.

I was born in 1980 and it would make him the best of my lifetime. Yes the bar is low, but Blair’s New Labour is always better than the Tories many Governments both before and since.

His copy book was blotted with Iraq. But I have no doubt, if there were a Tory Government in 2001, the outcome would have been the same.

J

[Hibbyradge]

So you are comparing Blair to almost every PM before or since since 1979.

So would that not make him the best in memory.

I was born in 1980 and it would make him the best of my lifetime. Yes the bar is low, but Blair’s New Labour is always better than the Tories many Governments both before and since.

His copy book was blotted with Iraq. But I have no doubt, if there were a Tory Government in 2001, the outcome would have been the same.

J

I'm not sure your last sentence is helping your argument. :wink:

The question is, which Labour leaders would have done differently? Almost certainly, Foot and Corbyn, but otherwise, I'd imagine they all would.

That's a moot point, of course, and it's impossible for us to know.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm not sure your last sentence is helping your argument. :wink:

The question is, which Labour leaders would have done differently? Almost certainly, Foot and Corbyn, but otherwise, I'd imagine they all would.

That's a moot point, of course, and it's impossible for us to know.

i agree absolutely with this.

the conclusion i draw from it is the absolute ideological poverty of the Labour movement in the UK. It's completely unfit for purpose. If all it can do is temporarily soften the blows of capitalism by getting into bed with every **** bag power broker required of it to do so, all the while entrenching neo-liberalism, then it's much more of a hindrance than a help. There isn't a quick or easy fix, but it's a conclusion that people need to start reaching IMO, even if that starts out one person at a time.

in a nutshell - lesser-evilism is still evilism.

[Hibbyradge]

i agree absolutely with this.

the conclusion i draw from it is the absolute ideological poverty of the Labour movement in the UK. It's completely unfit for purpose. If all it can do is temporarily soften the blows of capitalism by getting into bed with every **** bag power broker required of it to do so, all the while entrenching neo-liberalism, then it's much more of a hindrance than a help. There isn't a quick or easy fix, but it's a conclusion that people need to start reaching IMO, even if that starts out one person at a time.

in a nutshell - lesser-evilism is still evilism.

It's interesting however, that the 2 Labour leaders who would definitely have kept the UK out of Iraq, gave Labour it's worst ever election results.

Your view of what's evil is not shared by the vast majority of people.

I remember having an argument with someone in the TU movement about an issue that the membership had voted conclusively against the executive's recommendation. It ended with me being somewhat surprised when I was told that the person, a CP member possibly, or maybe Militant, I can't remember the individual, telling me that he knew better than the membership. I had always thought the TU leaders and officials were supposed to represent the membership, but seemingly not if they disagree.

Pointing out the electoral failings of Foot and Corbyn usually leads to similar assertions.

[wookie70]

So you are comparing Blair to almost every PM before or since since 1979.

So would that not make him the best in memory.

I was born in 1980 and it would make him the best of my lifetime. Yes the bar is low, but Blair’s New Labour is always better than the Tories many Governments both before and since.

His copy book was blotted with Iraq. But I have no doubt, if there were a Tory Government in 2001, the outcome would have been the same.

J

There have only been 5 Labour PMs since the end of WW2. Blair and Brown were essentially the same government and their tenure is around the same as the other 3 had in total between them. My point is that Blair had time and opportunity. Look at how other PMs have changed the Uk radically given that. Thatcher may have made the UK worse in many respects but she changed the landscape completely. Blair basically carried on what Thatcher was doing but softened the edges. He completely missed teh opportunity to make a long term positive difference. In that respect he could be judged to be one of the worst PMs as he had everything needed to have a positive agenda for change and instead did lots of short term good that the Tories undid in about 5 minutes.

If I only go back to 1979 then I can only really compare him to Tories. That is possibly an easier comparison to make than with other Labour PMs but doesn't show how he could have led the country if he had been more left in policy.