Northern Ireland.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Rioting breaking out in Loyalist communities in Belfast. Nothing overly out of the ordinary, granted, but this does feel a bit more substantial than the union flag riots for example with the backdrop of brexit and the trade border issue. Could this signal a new significant uptick in sectarian and political violence in the North? Hopefully not.

[ronaldo7]

Rioting breaking out in Loyalist communities in Belfast. Nothing overly out of the ordinary, granted, but this does feel a bit more substantial than the union flag riots for example with the backdrop of brexit and the trade border issue. Could this signal a new significant uptick in sectarian and political violence in the North? Hopefully not.

Most of the young folk on the streets over the last 6 nights will have been born under the GFA. They've known nothing else, and yet sectarianism rears it's ugly head again. They learn at the knee of their elders, and unfortunately it's forced into them from an early age.

Let's hope some cool heads apply some sense, and get this thing sorted...for now.

[Pretty Boy]

Young folk getting stirred up by their 'leaders'. Half of them are bairns and many will end up with criminal records whilst those responsible for sending them out there in the 1st place shed crocodile tears and condemn the 'shocking scenes'.

[Billy Whizz]

https://twitter.com/patrickielty/status/1379898869987807236?s=21

Didn’t know that Keilty’s dad was murdered in NI in 1988

He’s been laying into Boris last few years
https://twitter.com/patrickielty/status/1045782711816708096?s=21

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Young folk getting stirred up by their 'leaders'. Half of them are bairns and many will end up with criminal records whilst those responsible for sending them out there in the 1st place shed crocodile tears and condemn the 'shocking scenes'.

Yep. If this situation isn't calmed down it could get very, very messy as we go into orange marching season and the anti internment protests/riots. As ronaldo7 said above, hopefully some calm heads can get a lid on this for the time being at least.

[Keith_M]

Northern Ireland is a hideous monstrosity created by a distant, uncaring Westminster around 100 years ago.

The current administration is showing the same level of understanding and foresight as their predecessors.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Northern Ireland is a hideous monstrosity created by a distant, uncaring Westminster around 100 years ago.

The current administration is showing the same level of understanding and foresight as their predecessors.

Well, aye. Wanted to be a bit more nuanced than calling the it a monstrosity though🤣 brexit was a reckless policy and anyone with any knowledge of the situation in the North of Ireland should've foreseen this coming to be honest.

[Pretty Boy]

Northern Ireland is a hideous monstrosity created by a distant, uncaring Westminster around 100 years ago.

The current administration is showing the same level of understanding and foresight as their predecessors.

I think we lowland Scots might have to take a wee bit responsibility as well. Good old James VI was quite keen to see a less Gaelic, less Catholic neighbour for his recently unified kingdom.

[Jones28]

It’s good to see Arlene Foster showing leadership by eh...blaming Sinn Fien who had a funeral for someone 8 months ago.

[Killiehibbie]

Well, aye. Wanted to be a bit more nuanced than calling the it a monstrosity though🤣 brexit was a reckless policy and anyone with any knowledge of the situation in the North of Ireland should've foreseen this coming to be honest.

I'm sure the tories did but don't really give a ****.

[Keith_M]

Well, aye. Wanted to be a bit more nuanced than calling the it a monstrosity though🤣 brexit was a reckless policy and anyone with any knowledge of the situation in the North of Ireland should've foreseen this coming to be honest.


OK, maybe a bit extreme in the term I used.

:greengrin

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

It’s good to see Arlene Foster showing leadership by eh...blaming Sinn Fien who had a funeral for someone 8 months ago.

Can't say it's surprising though can you? Not a sinn fein supporter by any means, but the DUP do seem to be paranoid about sinn fein/IRA. Which is ironic of course considering its their supporters kicking off and inciting violence 🙄 scary that they were propping up Central government not too long ago

[Kato]

Northern Ireland is a hideous monstrosity created by a distant, uncaring Westminster around 100 years ago.

They cared about the industry which was in the north of Ireland at the time. The cared enough to slice the island up and gerrymander their slice to shreds. Easy when you have a ready made "divide and rule" tool pre-built to dress the political reasons in religious clothing.

Then Thatcher destroyed the reason and they were left with the divide, which they don't care about.

I bet the Pope cares more about the Loyalists in Ireland than the current Tory lot.

[Kato]

I think we lowland Scots might have to take a wee bit responsibility as well. Good old James VI was quite keen to see a less Gaelic, less Catholic neighbour for his recently unified kingdom.

Scottish Kings always one eye on ruling Ireland, giving some dark ages celtic connection. The first thing Bruce did after Bannockburn was to send his brother to hook up with some sympathisers to his claim.

[Keith_M]

I think we lowland Scots might have to take a wee bit responsibility as well. Good old James VI was quite keen to see a less Gaelic, less Catholic neighbour for his recently unified kingdom.


What's the time limit for how far back we have to feel guilty for the actions of our ancestors (or their rulers, for that matter)?

Can we draw a line at 500 years, or should we feel guilt about battering the Vikings at Largs as well?


:dunno:



TBH, I'm only just getting over my guilt for my part in Slavery and the Empire, and my Missus keeps apologising for invading Poland*



* She claims it was just a school trip form Dresden, but I have my suspicions.

[gbhibby]

Saw somebody being interviewed with with about 10 blue panels with 55 on them and a a plethora of union jacks and RFC badges


So many British governments knew what was going on prior to the troubles starting but did nothing
Don't think diplomatic skills is on Boris Johnson CV. As a old work colleague used to say a bairn with a biscuit arse could see this situation coming.

[Keith_M]

Why is the Tories thread closed?

:confused:

[Newry Hibs]

As ever in northern ireland it's all about whataboutery. Sinn fein have a funeral and unionists are all indignant and faux outrage. Loyalaists en masse march through the streets and sinn fein are all indignant and faux outrage.

Anyone who thinks a load of stone throwing children are outraged about the nuances of a trade deal are kidding themselves.

Gangs, turf war, shows of strength, bored easily led people and their puppet masters are behind this.

[Pretty Boy]

What's the time limit for how far back we have to feel guilty for the actions of our ancestors (or their rulers, for that matter)?

Can we draw a line at 500 years, or should we feel guilt about battering the Vikings at Largs as well?


:dunno:



TBH, I'm only just getting over my guilt for my part in Slavery and the Empire, and my Missus keeps apologising for invading Poland*



* She claims it was just a school trip form Dresden, but I have my suspicions.

I wasn't being entirely serious.

Although I'd argue the plantation of Ulster, and Ireland as a whole, are a key part of the root cause of much of the issues that persisted throughout the centuries that followed.

Our of interest what time limit do you set on 'guilt' or at least responsibility for the actions of those who have gone before? More than a century but less than 450 years when it comes to NI I assume?

[Andy74]

Northern Ireland is a hideous monstrosity created by a distant, uncaring Westminster around 100 years ago.

The current administration is showing the same level of understanding and foresight as their predecessors.

Yeah, a proper mess.

Ive been back now for a bit but my work for the last few years was Dublin with an office in Belfast.

I was pretty unaware that so many years on there are actually more of the physical walls up now between communities than there was at the height on the Troubles. There is still basically no go areas and curfews in place. Not so much out and out violence but the hostility is still there. A bit bizarre now with tourist buses patrolling the same areas. Think that is the case across the towns in the North.

What I’m not sure everyone realises is that in the Republic pretty much no one cares. We tend to see things through the West of Scotland and assume the Republic is full of folk really engaged in this still. I found that people rightly saw that their own independence was important. They are generally surprised when I talked about folk likes James Connolly and events like 1916 being seen here alongside the IRA of the Troubles. I struggled to find anyone who were too bothered about Ulster being returned to them. Got the sense they felt very much they had moved on within Europe and that taking on Ulster would be costly to them, in a number of ways.

Difficult to see where it goes from here. Demographics I think are still moving away from Unionist majority and perhaps naturally a political change will occur over time but you still get left with a challenging minority.

Brexit has really laid bare the problem that was left.

[Hiber-nation]

Why is the Tories thread closed?

:confused:

Was wondering that too. Can't see anything offensive and don't want to speculate....

[Future17]

Why is the Tories thread closed?

:confused:

Laura Kuessenberg has just paid her £10 Private Member subs and been made an Admin.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/brexit-tensions-cause-return-violence-in-northern-ireland-7872670


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[Keith_M]

I wasn't being entirely serious.



Me neither, PB.

My strange sense of humour doesn't always come across well. :-)






Although I'd argue the plantation of Ulster, and Ireland as a whole, are a key part of the root cause of much of the issues that persisted throughout the centuries that followed.

Our of interest what time limit do you set on 'guilt' or at least responsibility for the actions of those who have gone before? More than a century but less than 450 years when it comes to NI I assume?


:hmmm:

For anything in which I played no part in whatsoever, I'd have to say ZERO years.

Pretty much the same as with slavery and the exploitation of the colonies and stuff like that.

[Pagan Hibernia]

As ever in northern ireland it's all about whataboutery. Sinn fein have a funeral and unionists are all indignant and faux outrage. Loyalaists en masse march through the streets and sinn fein are all indignant and faux outrage.

Anyone who thinks a load of stone throwing children are outraged about the nuances of a trade deal are kidding themselves.

Gangs, turf war, shows of strength, bored easily led people and their puppet masters are behind this.

:agree:

this is not 1974, when mass loyalist strikes brought the place to a stop and obliterated the sunningdale agreement. And it’s not 1985 when Paisley was able to get half of Belfast on the streets to protest the Anglo Irish agreement. It is, as you say, gangs and thugs manipulating kids.

meanwhile, the vast vast majority of people in NI just quietly get on with their work and daily lives. Then they finish up in the evening, check the news or social media, and despair at how they are being ‘represented’ to the outside world.

[Smartie]

The great thing about Northern Ireland is that 99.99% of people have zero desire to go back to where they were, so in spite of the hyperbole I think they’ll be fine.

I’ve got quite a lot of mates who stay over there, from both sides of the divide. Much of the peace is still uneasy and instead of happily living side by side you’ve still got communities who keep themselves to themselves.

The problem for me is the strength of feeling that exists amongst some unionists and the direction of travel by way of the relative size of their community not being in their favour. I do have a bit of pity for them, being so committed to a union that couldn’t care less about them in return.

There may be trouble ahead but hopefully time will continue to heal, and whilst many prejudices and problems will be passed on, many more will not and the overall picture will become more positive.

[lord bunberry]

Yeah, a proper mess.

Ive been back now for a bit but my work for the last few years was Dublin with an office in Belfast.

I was pretty unaware that so many years on there are actually more of the physical walls up now between communities than there was at the height on the Troubles. There is still basically no go areas and curfews in place. Not so much out and out violence but the hostility is still there. A bit bizarre now with tourist buses patrolling the same areas. Think that is the case across the towns in the North.

What I’m not sure everyone realises is that in the Republic pretty much no one cares. We tend to see things through the West of Scotland and assume the Republic is full of folk really engaged in this still. I found that people rightly saw that their own independence was important. They are generally surprised when I talked about folk likes James Connolly and events like 1916 being seen here alongside the IRA of the Troubles. I struggled to find anyone who were too bothered about Ulster being returned to them. Got the sense they felt very much they had moved on within Europe and that taking on Ulster would be costly to them, in a number of ways.

Difficult to see where it goes from here. Demographics I think are still moving away from Unionist majority and perhaps naturally a political change will occur over time but you still get left with a challenging minority.

Brexit has really laid bare the problem that was left.
I’ve met a few Irish people when on holiday and they’ve almost all said the same. The general consensus seems to be “they’re welcome to it” or “we’re not interested in having it back” Can you imagine the grief it would cause the Irish if the island was reunified? Obviously there will be lots who do want to see reunification, but the ones I’ve talked to couldn’t care less.

[lapsedhibee]

I’ve met a few Irish people when on holiday and they’ve almost all said the same. The general consensus seems to be “they’re welcome to it” or “we’re not interested in having it back” Can you imagine the grief it would cause the Irish if the island was reunified? Obviously there will be lots who do want to see reunification, but the ones I’ve talked to couldn’t care less.

Who would it cause grief to, outside of the DUP/strident Loyalist community, and Kate Hoey? :dunno:

[lord bunberry]

Who would it cause grief to, outside of the DUP/strident Loyalist community, and Kate Hoey? :dunno:
I’d imagine there would be a large increase in loyalist terrorism, equivalent to what we saw with the IRA.

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve met a few Irish people when on holiday and they’ve almost all said the same. The general consensus seems to be “they’re welcome to it” or “we’re not interested in having it back” Can you imagine the grief it would cause the Irish if the island was reunified? Obviously there will be lots who do want to see reunification, but the ones I’ve talked to couldn’t care less.

Even though Ireland is a lot richer than most of the UK and definitely a lot richer than NI, it still would not shy away from re-uniting the Island even with all the social trouble that came with it.


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[Ozyhibby]

I’d imagine there would be a large increase in loyalist terrorism, equivalent to what we saw with the IRA.

That may be tempered by the fact the union is turning its back on them in a way that Ireland never turned its back on the nationalists.


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[lapsedhibee]

I’d imagine there would be a large increase in loyalist terrorism, equivalent to what we saw with the IRA.
Border poll's surely a-comin, sooner or later, and when it does it'll go for unification.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I’ve met a few Irish people when on holiday and they’ve almost all said the same. The general consensus seems to be “they’re welcome to it” or “we’re not interested in having it back” Can you imagine the grief it would cause the Irish if the island was reunified? Obviously there will be lots who do want to see reunification, but the ones I’ve talked to couldn’t care less.

polls in the south regularly show majority support for unification.

A lot of that is probably romantic nationalism, and many in the republic probably aren’t aware of just how problematic it could be, economically and socially. For example I live with a Dubliner who would have been very nationalist oriented before she moved here but now that she’s had a couple of years witnessing what it’s like she’s of the opinion that it shouldn’t happen in our lifetimes.

[Newry Hibs]

Border poll's surely a-comin, sooner or later, and when it does it'll go for unification.

I wouldnt be so sure about the result. There are many presumed NI nationlists who have no desire to be hooked up to ireland and actually see it as a bit backward.

[lapsedhibee]

I wouldnt be so sure about the result. There are many presumed NI nationlists who have no desire to be hooked up to ireland and actually see it as a bit backward.

Do you think that might change a bit after another 4 years of Johnson's government?

[Newry Hibs]

Do you think that might change a bit after another 4 years of Johnson's government?

Not really. I dont think anyone cares too much about his policies as we have our own bunch of charlatans here to get annoyed with.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wouldnt be so sure about the result. There are many presumed NI nationlists who have no desire to be hooked up to ireland and actually see it as a bit backward.

I think support in Ireland has fallen quite a bit over the last couple of decades too. NI is seen as an expensive and troublesome addition. Most are nominally in favour of unity but I'm not sure how well that would stand up in a referendum campaign if there was ongoing trouble up north.

[ballengeich]

I wouldnt be so sure about the result. There are many presumed NI nationlists who have no desire to be hooked up to ireland and actually see it as a bit backward.
A workmate from the nationalist community said to me about unification "the heart says yes, the head says no".

I also suspect that, although they could never publicly admit it, the politicians in the Republic dread the problems that would arise in trying to integrate the north. A large disgruntled minority would exacerbate the economic and social challenge.

[Ozyhibby]

A workmate from the nationalist community said to me about unification "the heart says yes, the head says no".

I also suspect that, although they could never publicly admit it, the politicians in the Republic dread the problems that would arise in trying to integrate the north. A large disgruntled minority would exacerbate the economic and social challenge.

It would still happen if the people of the north vote for it. The two main parties in Ireland are under huge pressure from Sinn Feinn right now. They would not survive turning down an attempt to reunite the Island.


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[Renfrew_Hibby]

I'm sure that incomes, GDP ect ect in the south have significantly overtaken the North over say the last 20 years.

It used to be a running joke in the North regards the state of the road network in the Republic but the investment in infrastructure in the South has left the North looking like the poor relations now.

I have a sister who lives just outside Dublin and the kids have a wonderful life and the education system is well ahead of any standard comprehensive eduction in the UK.
I know many in that area who would be very reluctant for reunification as not only would you have the social problem of a million former 'enemies' and how to integrate them but just the economic drain and strain would set the the Republic back years.

[Smartie]

A workmate from the nationalist community said to me about unification "the heart says yes, the head says no".

I also suspect that, although they could never publicly admit it, the politicians in the Republic dread the problems that would arise in trying to integrate the north. A large disgruntled minority would exacerbate the economic and social challenge.

Someone on here linked a podcast several months ago - mainly Scottish independence but brushed on the situation in Ireland as well.

They cited the example of Switzerland as a success story. There are several different cultures within the nation and no particularly strong national identity but they do a good job of respecting differences, staying apart yet coming together when it’s in everyone’s interests

Sure there would be difficulties but it shouldn’t be impossible for Ireland to manage something similarish.

[The Baldmans Comb]

The Unionist community of the North of Ireland are already despised by their nationalist neighbours who see reunification of Ireland as a natural historical process.

Irish people look down on them as backward bigots completely out of step with a very rich multi racial progressive European country.

The English don't want anything to do with them and can't wait to get rid of them as they are no longer of any political significance or economic value but can't find anyone to take them off their hands.

Thats some achievement to be laughed at, despised and ignored by everyone around you and their riots are more of a cry for help than anything to do with border control.

[lapsedhibee]

I wouldnt be so sure about the result. There are many presumed NI nationlists who have no desire to be hooked up to ireland and actually see it as a bit backward.

Nornirish see Ireland as backward compared to Norniron? Not doubting you but that's staggeringly unselfaware.

[Newry Hibs]

Nornirish see Ireland as backward compared to Norniron? Not doubting you but that's staggeringly unselfaware.

Of course that is a generalisation. Probably a bit historical in some peoples views.

One issue is health. There are people i know who come from south to north for doctors and none the other way. And not just because of the cost.

The South still has a church that dominates and influences attitudes and government (small g) which of course is a complete non starter for unionists. Though there similarities on both sides for things like gay marriage and abortion.

Not sure the south is the well off multi ethnic eutopia mentioned above compared to the north. There are big issues in dundalk, just near the border, with african gangs. Both in their behaviour and attitudes to them.

Dublin may well be recovering economically, but they do this very cyclical.

I get the other point re norn irish thinking the south is backward. Ni loyalists are the worst for unmoving opinions.

[Dalianwanda]

when I moved to Dublin in 2006 i was certainly surprised how little folk knew or cared about the situation in the north. There was hardly anything about it in the media compared to what i’d been used to back home with the Scottish papers.

In terms of being richer here i dunno. When i moved here i was staggered to find out i was basically doubling the wage i had at Standard Life. Saying that living in Dublin was a fair bit more expensive than Edinburgh/Musselburgh. Infrastructure has improved immeasurably since i moved here although NW where i live has been kind of ignored (signs that’s changing)..My folks regularly comment on the size of the houses here when they visit but we are rural so there’s a bit more space to expand and so many families have sites they can build on.

When i moved to Sligo/Strandhill certainly there’s a bit more awareness of the north (were only 35k from the border). Generally the ones that come here are looking for a bit of peace away from marching season or just here for hols. There’s a definite bit of head scratching about DUP & loyalists. In terms of united Ireland from my circle a great deal want it but not at any cost to what they have at the moment.

My brother in law is from Belfast. Look forward to getting back to seeing him and taking in a Cliftonville game.

[Smartie]

We had a girl work with us for a spell who was from the Republic of Ireland and relatively under privileged background.

One point she made will always stick with me - and that was the “you don’t know you’re f*****g born here with this NHS of yours”.

Growing up, their family would sometimes have to make decisions regarding medical care or making appointments based on whether or not they could afford it.

I have a funny relationship with the NHS - basically I think it’s wonderful, but it should be even more wonderful if treated with appropriate respect by politicians, the public and those who work within it, and we should be a bit more open minded about the pros and cons of alternative approaches.

The island of Ireland and potential unification throws up a lot of interesting questions regarding healthcare and it’s funding. Putting aside all the flag stuff (which is all very emotionally powerful) there are practical reasons why the poorer of Northern Ireland might not wish to give up the NHS, and I’d expect that to transcend communities.

FWIW “funding healthcare” is one of my main issues with the idea of an independent Scotland.

[Dalianwanda]

We had a girl work with us for a spell who was from the Republic of Ireland and relatively under privileged background.

One point she made will always stick with me - and that was the “you don’t know you’re f*****g born here with this NHS of yours”.

Growing up, their family would sometimes have to make decisions regarding medical care or making appointments based on whether or not they could afford it.

I have a funny relationship with the NHS - basically I think it’s wonderful, but it should be even more wonderful if treated with appropriate respect by politicians, the public and those who work within it, and we should be a bit more open minded about the pros and cons of alternative approaches.

The island of Ireland and potential unification throws up a lot of interesting questions regarding healthcare and it’s funding. Putting aside all the flag stuff (which is all very emotionally powerful) there are practical reasons why the poorer of Northern Ireland might not wish to give up the NHS, and I’d expect that to transcend communities.

FWIW “funding healthcare” is one of my main issues with the idea of an independent Scotland.

NHS is amazing. I’ve to pay €50 for a gp appointment, €30 for bloods, i pay €70 a month for prescriptions..Was just in hospital for a couple of weeks and delighted to find out only €80 a day. Did see a couple of guys leave before they should because they couldn’t afford it. Dentist similar. like any country with a neoliberal government the gap between haves and have nots is growing.

[Keith_M]

Some colleagues of my wife decide to visit Nothern Ireland a few years ago. The holiday consisted of a few boozy nights out and various bus trips to infamous areas of Belfast associated with The Troubles.

Some folk are just weird

:rolleyes:.

[Smartie]

Some colleagues of my wife decide to visit Nothern Ireland a few years ago. The holiday consisted of a few boozy nights out and various bus trips to infamous areas of Belfast associated with The Troubles.

Some folk are just weird

:rolleyes:.

I’ve done that very trip a couple of times.

The bus tours are fascinating and the pubs are excellent so it makes for a brilliant night out.

I couldn’t recommend it highly enough tbh.

[Pretty Boy]

I’ve done that very trip a couple of times.

The bus tours are fascinating and the pubs are excellent so it makes for a brilliant night out.

I couldn’t recommend it highly enough tbh.

I'm the same. We went on a trip in a converted black cab taxi rather than the bus tour. The guy taking us was a really interesting man and had been quite active in loyalist 'activities' in his past life and now a peace campaigner. At one of the stops his mate joined us who was a former Republican paramilitary turned peace campaigner. We also went a walking tour round Free Derry.

I didn't really view it any differently from going poking about sites related to the world wars or places in the old Yuogoslavia, both of which I have done. Maybe the relative fragility of the peace, the recent nature of the conflict and the proximity to home changes peoples views on it. Much as I enjoyed stuff about the Titanic and the industrial history of NI and so on I would have felt I had missed a huge chunk of the place out if I had just ignored the troubles.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’ve done that very trip a couple of times.

The bus tours are fascinating and the pubs are excellent so it makes for a brilliant night out.

I couldn’t recommend it highly enough tbh.

The murals are pretty special, too. No matter your political views, there's something compelling about art that comes from deeply-held passion.

[Dalianwanda]

I remember when Hibs were over and we got the train up from Dublin. Heavily armed police, armoured vehicles a cage over the walkway into the ground. Contrast that with policing at the game in Dublin with a few guards in shorts on bicycles 🙂

Like any city Dublin has its mental bits but the contrast in policing the games was striking

[ronaldo7]

I remember when Hibs were over and we got the train up from Dublin. Heavily armed police, armoured vehicles a cage over the walkway into the ground. Contrast that with policing at the game in Dublin with a few guards in shorts on bicycles 🙂

Like any city Dublin has its mental bits but the contrast in policing the games was striking

We were in some Republican pub before the match and ordered about 6 taxis to take us to the match, on the way down, armed police stopped our cavalcade at the entrance to the walkway with the covered cage. It came out at the turnstile for the away end. Back to the foresters for a bevvy after the match, then the train to Dublin for the shamrock game. Great trip

[147lothian]

A work colleague of mine is a hard core loyalist and supporter of the the, I'll explain his take on the NI riots to get inside the mind of a bellend, he thinks that NI is being taken against its will into a united Ireland by Brexit being implemented on the mainland of the UK but not NI, for him NI is part of the UK so it should be part of Brexit just like the rest of the UK.

I get the feeling if the Republic of Ireland said black he would say white as he views them as a source of evil, he doesn't want NI to be part of the EU because to him that is being too aligned with the south and eventually leading to a united Ireland, his worst nightmare.

[Ozyhibby]

A work colleague of mine is a hard core loyalist and supporter of the the, I'll explain his take on the NI riots to get inside the mind of a bellend, he thinks that NI is being taken against its will into a united Ireland by Brexit being implemented on the mainland of the UK but not NI, for him NI is part of the UK so it should be part of Brexit just like the rest of the UK.

I get the feeling if the Republic of Ireland said black he would say white as he views them as a source of evil, he doesn't want NI to be part of the EU because to him that is being too aligned with the south and eventually leading to a united Ireland, his worst nightmare.

At least he can’t say he didn’t see it coming. [emoji23]


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[147lothian]

At least he can’t say he didn’t see it coming. [emoji23]


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Like a dinosaur who see's a meteorite coming :pray:

[Lendo]

A work colleague of mine is a hard core loyalist and supporter of the the, I'll explain his take on the NI riots to get inside the mind of a bellend, he thinks that NI is being taken against its will into a united Ireland by Brexit being implemented on the mainland of the UK but not NI, for him NI is part of the UK so it should be part of Brexit just like the rest of the UK.

I get the feeling if the Republic of Ireland said black he would say white as he views them as a source of evil, he doesn't want NI to be part of the EU because to him that is being too aligned with the south and eventually leading to a united Ireland, his worst nightmare.

I have two Rangers supporting colleagues that are both members of the Orange Order. Both travel back to Belfast for marching season for their annual holiday.

Rangers consume every aspect of their lives. It goes beyond just football. Rangers influence every decision they make or vote they cast, every friend they have. It’s utterly bizarre. Hibs are a big part of our lives but I doubt for the majority of us it isn’t our ENTIRE life.

I’ve noticed a more hostile change in my closer group of friends that are Rangers supports recently too. Never expressed an interest in politics or religion before but in the last 12 months everything is more polarised. Every decision made in politics is an attack (somehow) on Rangers.

Like I said, utterly utterly bizarre.

[Andy74]

I have two Rangers supporting colleagues that are both members of the Orange Order. Both travel back to Belfast for marching season for their annual holiday.

Rangers consume every aspect of their lives. It goes beyond just football. Rangers influence every decision they make or vote they cast, every friend they have. It’s utterly bizarre. Hibs are a big part of our lives but I doubt for the majority of us it isn’t our ENTIRE life.

I’ve noticed a more hostile change in my closer group of friends that are Rangers supports recently too. Never expressed an interest in politics or religion before but in the last 12 months everything is more polarised. Every decision made in politics is an attack (somehow) on Rangers.

Like I said, utterly utterly bizarre.

True.

When you find out someone is a Rangers fan, and you can often tell this just by looking at them, you generally have a very good idea on their thoughts on just about everything in life.

I don’t mind folk having their life consumed by things but I’d prefer it to be vaguely positive. There’s really not that much redeeming about their thoughts on life and how other people should be treated. They are largely quite active in their hate of various groups, not limited to Catholics.

Would love to be able to say it is a minority but unfortunately it is not.

[Pagan Hibernia]

A work colleague of mine is a hard core loyalist and supporter of the the, I'll explain his take on the NI riots to get inside the mind of a bellend, he thinks that NI is being taken against its will into a united Ireland by Brexit being implemented on the mainland of the UK but not NI, for him NI is part of the UK so it should be part of Brexit just like the rest of the UK.

I get the feeling if the Republic of Ireland said black he would say white as he views them as a source of evil, he doesn't want NI to be part of the EU because to him that is being too aligned with the south and eventually leading to a united Ireland, his worst nightmare.

A brexit hardcore loyalists and their parties like the DUP and TUV campaigned and voted for.

the border was always going to be an issue that needed to be sorted in any brexit agreement with the EU, but this lot ploughed on blindly, believing brexit to be strengthening the union by putting them at odds with the EU oriented Republic of Ireland. By some freakish quirk of an election result in 2017 they then found themselves holding the balance of power over Theresa May’s government and calling the shots over her attempts to deal with the border problem. When this power was lost after the 2019 election they, not unsurprisingly, got shafted by Boris and the tories (who have always used the NI unionists only as long as they are useful to them).

there are (some) legitimate reasons for saying no to a united ireland. But if and when it happens then that lot will have only themselves to blame.

[Newry Hibs]

True.

When you find out someone is a Rangers fan, and you can often tell this just by looking at them, you generally have a very good idea on their thoughts on just about everything in life.

I don’t mind folk having their life consumed by things but I’d prefer it to be vaguely positive. There’s really not that much redeeming about their thoughts on life and how other people should be treated. They are largely quite active in their hate of various groups, not limited to Catholics.

Would love to be able to say it is a minority but unfortunately it is not.

I have a couple of mates over here. One thru my wife and one thru my sons football. Both rangers fans (not rabid) and both married to Catholics. Most dont care about the nonsense but clearly a lot do.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

I have a couple of mates over here. One thru my wife and one thru my sons football. Both rangers fans (not rabid) and both married to Catholics. Most dont care about the nonsense but clearly a lot do.

Its probably much worse in certain Scottish communities than you would find anywhere in Ulster.

[Keith_M]

I’ve done that very trip a couple of times.

The bus tours are fascinating and the pubs are excellent so it makes for a brilliant night out.

I couldn’t recommend it highly enough tbh.


I'm the same. We went on a trip in a converted black cab taxi rather than the bus tour. The guy taking us was a really interesting man and had been quite active in loyalist 'activities' in his past life and now a peace campaigner. At one of the stops his mate joined us who was a former Republican paramilitary turned peace campaigner. We also went a walking tour round Free Derry.

I didn't really view it any differently from going poking about sites related to the world wars or places in the old Yuogoslavia, both of which I have done. Maybe the relative fragility of the peace, the recent nature of the conflict and the proximity to home changes peoples views on it. Much as I enjoyed stuff about the Titanic and the industrial history of NI and so on I would have felt I had missed a huge chunk of the place out if I had just ignored the troubles.


The murals are pretty special, too. No matter your political views, there's something compelling about art that comes from deeply-held passion.



I suppose it's all a matter of opinion but going to visit places that, for the first thirty years of my life, were the centre of shocking terrorist murders, seems a bit sick to me.

It's like people going to visit Harold Shipman's house... or the hordes of grizzly tourists that visited Amstetten in Austria to see where Josef Fritzl raped and murdered some of his own offspring then kept some in a cellar.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose it's all a matter of opinion but going to visit places that, for the first thirty years of my life, were the centre of shocking terrorist murders, seems a bit sick to me.

It's like people going to visit Harold Shipman's house... or the hordes of grizzly tourists that visited Amstetten in Austria to see where Josef Fritzl raped and murdered some of his own offspring then kept some in a cellar.

Auschwitz?


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[Keith_M]

Auschwitz?


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I've never been... and not exactly sure what point you're trying to make.

:dunno:

[LancashireHibby]

I have two Rangers supporting colleagues that are both members of the Orange Order. Both travel back to Belfast for marching season for their annual holiday.

Rangers consume every aspect of their lives. It goes beyond just football. Rangers influence every decision they make or vote they cast, every friend they have. It’s utterly bizarre. Hibs are a big part of our lives but I doubt for the majority of us it isn’t our ENTIRE life.

I’ve noticed a more hostile change in my closer group of friends that are Rangers supports recently too. Never expressed an interest in politics or religion before but in the last 12 months everything is more polarised. Every decision made in politics is an attack (somehow) on Rangers.

Like I said, utterly utterly bizarre.


True.

When you find out someone is a Rangers fan, and you can often tell this just by looking at them, you generally have a very good idea on their thoughts on just about everything in life.

I don’t mind folk having their life consumed by things but I’d prefer it to be vaguely positive. There’s really not that much redeeming about their thoughts on life and how other people should be treated. They are largely quite active in their hate of various groups, not limited to Catholics.

Would love to be able to say it is a minority but unfortunately it is not.

I think that general attitude has been bubbling under the surface ever since Rangers Mk I went out of existence and the new club was allowed in to the Third Division. Siege mentality and all that. It really has become more prevalent in the last couple of years, but I suppose that is probably in keeping with society in general becoming so polarised about pretty much everything.

I would like to think that I am fairly well-read and open minded when it comes to NI, but I am finding more and more that so many Rangers fans down here - probably even more so than elsewhere - are so staunchly devoted to toeing whatever the Rangers party line is without actually having any prior knowledge or conducting any sort of research. This probably ranges from the faux grief from the passing of Prince Philip to abusing Megan Markle online, via pure Poppywatch behaviour, all alongside the entirely unsurprising Neil Lennon videos and associated comments.

Bizarre and, quite honestly, a bit scary.

[Dalianwanda]

I suppose it's all a matter of opinion but going to visit places that, for the first thirty years of my life, were the centre of shocking terrorist murders, seems a bit sick to me.

It's like people going to visit Harold Shipman's house... or the hordes of grizzly tourists that visited Amstetten in Austria to see where Josef Fritzl raped and murdered some of his own offspring then kept some in a cellar.

It’s nothing like that at all.

[Keith_M]

It’s nothing like that at all.


Admittedly, I used quite extreme examples, but it's basically how I see it (and I understand completely that people will view it differently).

If people go to somewhere like Normandy as an act of remembrance, then I totally get that.

But some people seem to view bus trips to former war/terror zones, where people were hideously tortured and murdered, as if it was like some trip to Disney Land.

[bigwheel]

Admittedly, I used quite extreme examples, but it's basically how I see it (and I understand completely that people will view it differently).

If people go to somewhere like Normandy as an act of remembrance, then I totally get that.

But some people seem to view bus trips to former war/terror zones, where people were hideously tortured and murdered, as if it was like some trip to Disney Land.

Isn’t it about the mindset and intent of those who go ..if it’s about understanding and education then it’s an important visit..

[Keith_M]

Sorry for taking this off track


:aok:

[Bristolhibby]

The Unionist community of the North of Ireland are already despised by their nationalist neighbours who see reunification of Ireland as a natural historical process.

Irish people look down on them as backward bigots completely out of step with a very rich multi racial progressive European country.

The English don't want anything to do with them and can't wait to get rid of them as they are no longer of any political significance or economic value but can't find anyone to take them off their hands.

Thats some achievement to be laughed at, despised and ignored by everyone around you and their riots are more of a cry for help than anything to do with border control.

Could you imagine Gardai patrolling Unionist areas of Belfast, Lisburn and Antrim in a United Ireland?

J

[Lendo]

How quickly would the animosity start to dissipate if the poorer areas of Northern Ireland started having an economic boom (increased employment, higher wages) after joining the much wealthier Republic.

(Hypothetical question of course)

[Stairway 2 7]

How quickly would the animosity start to dissipate if the poorer areas of Northern Ireland started having an economic boom (increased employment, higher wages) after joining the much wealthier Republic.

(Hypothetical question of course)

Generations at least

[Newry Hibs]

Nice programme on bbc1 (maybe on iplayer if it wasnt on main bbc) about derry city.

[overdrive]

Generations at least

Would it, though? I had a boss from NI a few years ago and he always insisted the situation over there was a socio-economic/class issue rather than a religious one. His view was that it was really only an issue, in the main, for poorer socio-economic groups and that the middle-classes (Protestant and Catholic) really didn’t care. He was also of the view that when social mobility took place, people stopped caring as much about it as they moved up the social scale.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210420/9d8c81c4d3a8b22b8fe8097a1bd0db7f.jpg


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[degenerated]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210420/9d8c81c4d3a8b22b8fe8097a1bd0db7f.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkJohnson just completely ignoring the good Friday agreement and wading right in.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210421/9e9911a1677ed4e0e053babcbca800d5.jpg

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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Nice programme on bbc1 (maybe on iplayer if it wasnt on main bbc) about derry city.

Watched last night, brilliant programme 😁

[Ozyhibby]

Arlene Foster gone. DUP probably going to become a lot more radical.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Arlene Foster gone. DUP probably going to become a lot more radical.


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Not until 1st June.

[weecounty hibby]

Apparently the VONC was due to abstaining on a vote about gay conversation therapy and the fact that NIs laws on abortion were changed for the better as well as allowing the Irish language act to pass. Speaks volumes for the kind of people the DUP are

[Ozyhibby]

Apparently the VONC was due to abstaining on a vote about gay conversation therapy and the fact that NIs laws on abortion were changed for the better as well as allowing the Irish language act to pass. Speaks volumes for the kind of people the DUP are

She also massively misjudged Johnson on Brexit and didn’t see his betrayal coming.


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[Bristolhibby]

She also massively misjudged Johnson on Brexit and didn’t see his betrayal coming.


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I also heard that she was unaware that night follows day.

J

[Bostonhibby]

I also heard that she was unaware that night follows day.

JDo bears **** in the woods in N.Ireland?

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[weecounty hibby]

Do bears **** in the woods in N.Ireland?

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Dunno but I bet she knows for sure that the pope is a Catholic!

[xyz23jc]

She also massively misjudged Johnson on Brexit and didn’t see his betrayal coming.


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Reason for resignation right there! :greengrin

[xyz23jc]

I also heard that she was unaware that night follows day.

J
:agree::greengrin:thumbsup::top marks

[xyz23jc]

Dunno but I bet she knows for sure that the pope is a Catholic!

Again,... weecounty hibby... Bang on the money........!:thumbsup::greengrin

[xyz23jc]

Do bears **** in the woods in N.Ireland?

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The Bears in the wood, there ... Do indeed **** in the woods....! FACT. END OF. :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

Dunno but I bet she knows for sure that the pope is a Catholic!I'll set them up and you knock them in the back of the net[emoji6]

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[weecounty hibby]

I'll set them up and you knock them in the back of the net[emoji6]

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It's like Laurel and Hardy! Probably in more ways than we'd like to admit!!

[Bostonhibby]

It's like Laurel and Hardy! Probably in more ways than we'd like to admit!![emoji16][emoji106]

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[CloudSquall]

Time for Adam Tomkins to complete his Staunch training and follow on to Belfast.

[degenerated]

It's like Laurel and Hardy! Probably in more ways than we'd like to admit!!I've got a piano needing shifted up a flight of stairs if you are both free :greengrin

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[Bostonhibby]

I've got a piano needing shifted up a flight of stairs if you are both free :greengrin

Sent from my CPH2009 using TapatalkWe're on a job in the Gorgie area at the moment but as soon as it's finally complete we'll be in touch.

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Arlene Foster gone. DUP probably going to become a lot more radical.


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Bumped for being too Liberal...

[Hibby70]

I've got a piano needing shifted up a flight of stairs if you are both free :greengrin

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If Laurel and Hardy aren't available then you could always get Bernard Cribbins along for a sing song.

[degenerated]

If Laurel and Hardy aren't available then you could always get Bernard Cribbins along for a sing song.There I was, digging this hole........

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Bumped for being too Liberal...

What a political party, when big bigoted Arlene is considered too liberal to be leader :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

There I was, digging this hole........

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Hopefully you won't come across any fossils in that hole. Will send the DUP into a spin!!

[JeMeSouviens]

Do bears **** in the woods in N.Ireland?

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The staunch teddy bears of NI **** only on tarrier, fenian *******s!

[Bostonhibby]

The staunch teddy bears of NI **** only on tarrier, fenian *******s!So us atheists miss out again.

It's a form of sectarianism in itself.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/180530080_10159091470039761_684150834968651618_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=bUqj2X-WVpQAX_GBA3r&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=1ff35eace2263fdf30cef71a920abf54&oe=60B38D8D

[tamig]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/180530080_10159091470039761_684150834968651618_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=bUqj2X-WVpQAX_GBA3r&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=1ff35eace2263fdf30cef71a920abf54&oe=60B38D8D

Is the Hibs twitter guy moonlighting? 😂

[Bostonhibby]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/180530080_10159091470039761_684150834968651618_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=bUqj2X-WVpQAX_GBA3r&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=1ff35eace2263fdf30cef71a920abf54&oe=60B38D8DHandy for playing the flute though.

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[Callum_62]

Dup leader of under a month has resigned

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[JimBHibees]

Dup leader of under a month has resigned

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Why?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why?

He agreed to the sinn fein appointment for deputy leader then proposed someone for first minister without getting the DUP approval.

He was facing a vote of no confidence so jumped before being pushed

[JeMeSouviens]

Why?

Part of the deal to resume power sharing was to have an Irish Language Act. The DUP have been dragging their heels over it for years, so to break the impasse, the UK gov has said if Stormont doesn't do something by this autumn, then they'll pass an act at Westminster instead. Poots wanted to go ahead and nominate a First Minister, his party have rebelled.

[JeMeSouviens]

btw, it's quite likely now that this is heading for an early NI assembly election and the DUP are all over the place. They could get well get their nightmare scenario - a Sinn Fein FM.

Actually they'll probably just refuse to participate rather than let that happen and it'll go back (yet again) to direct rule from London.

[Newry Hibs]

btw, it's quite likely now that this is heading for an early NI assembly election and the DUP are all over the place. They could get well get their nightmare scenario - a Sinn Fein FM.

Actually they'll probably just refuse to participate rather than let that happen and it'll go back (yet again) to direct rule from London.

The official office title is 'Office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister' - and there is no difference in importance. Yeah right. DUP won't be happy.
Can see another election soon and maybe a return to no government for three years or so.

[Pagan Hibernia]

This is great stuff. A less classy or dignified mob than this you will not find anywhere. Now their poison has been turned on themselves and it is frankly wonderful viewing. And I’m no fan of Sinn Fein either.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Poots got what was coming to him. He basically undertook a coup against Foster, though it's surprising he managed to beat Donaldson in the [very small] leadership election. He was a crazy choice to begin with: a rabid religious fundamentalist and ultra conservative on social issues, of the Big Ian ilk, but times have moved on. He then agreed to the Sinn Fein Irish language legislation, as the price of getting his protege in as First Minister, so disappointing the very hardliners who supported him. He was left without any base.

The DUP is currently in shambles and might well find itself deposed as largest party in Northern Ireland at the next assembly elections, all of which I find very pleasing.

[Keith_M]

Poots got what was coming to him. He basically undertook a coup against Foster, though it's surprising he managed to beat Donaldson in the [very small] leadership election. He was a crazy choice to begin with: a rabid religious fundamentalist and ultra conservative on social issues, of the Big Ian ilk, but times have moved on. He then agreed to the Sinn Fein Irish language legislation, as the price of getting his protege in as First Minister, so disappointing the very hardliners who supported him. He was left without any base.

The DUP is currently in shambles and might well find itself deposed as largest party in Northern Ireland at the next assembly elections, all of which I find very pleasing.


Wouldn't it be great if the majority of people in Northern Ireland got fed up with the extreme ends of their party politics and voted for somebody like the SDLP or Alliance

Then they could concentrate on actual meaningful policies that might genuinely benefit the people of Northern Ireland.

[JeMeSouviens]

NI election coming up in May and with some of the DUP vote defecting to the even more hardline TUV, it looks like Sinn Fein could have a historical first First Minister.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sinn-fein-lord-hayward-elections_uk_623890d8e4b0f1e82c4c8e0b

Chances of the Unionists allowing the executive to resume business if this comes to pass? :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

NI election coming up in May and with some of the DUP vote defecting to the even more hardline TUV, it looks like Sinn Fein could have a historical first First Minister.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sinn-fein-lord-hayward-elections_uk_623890d8e4b0f1e82c4c8e0b

Chances of the Unionists allowing the executive to resume business if this comes to pass? :rolleyes:

Fair chance Sinn Fein win next election in Ireland as well. Once you have that then the move to a united Ireland will start happening anyway through incremental baby steps.


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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Fair chance Sinn Fein win next election in Ireland as well. Once you have that then the move to a united Ireland will start happening anyway through incremental baby steps.


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Even then, I'm not convinced. I spend a fair amount of time in Norn Iron/North of Ireland/the occupied six counties whatever you want to call it as the other halves folks are from over there. The places I tend to spend any reasonable amount of time in are very nationalist, but a few people have said to me over a beer or two they're not a guaranteed vote for a united Ireland. You need to remember that these people have lived a life time with the NHS etc. which the Eire doesn't have, are they willing to give that up for the sake of being able to call themselves Irish (which they legally can, and can register as Irish citizens also and have an Irish passport)? It's a tough one for many people and I'm not sure it's going to be as cut and dry as when there's a Catholic majority there will be a united Ireland.

[lapsedhibee]

You need to remember that these people have lived a life time with the NHS etc. which the Eire doesn't have, are they willing to give that up for the sake of being able to call themselves Irish (which they legally can, and can register as Irish citizens also and have an Irish passport)? It's a tough one for many people and I'm not sure it's going to be as cut and dry as when there's a Catholic majority there will be a united Ireland.

A Warning From History

If/when a border poll happens, anti-separatists will no doubt claim that the only way to guarantee continued access to the NHS is to vote No.
In the same way that anti-separatists once claimed that the only way to guarantee continued access to the EU was to vote No.

[Ozyhibby]

Patience is the key for those who wish a united Ireland. With NI now in the SM and CU, businesses there will start to look to Dublin when it comes to issues or changes that get made there. At the EU commission it will be Dublin which has to represent the people of NI. That will bring an interesting dynamic as they don’t have a vote for the govt in Dublin even as what happens in Dublin starts to have a much bigger effect on their daily lives.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Arlene Foster doesn't like just too much green Arlene Foster hits out at the ‘Irishness’ of St Patrick’s Day - The Fermanagh Herald (https://fermanaghherald.com/2022/03/arlene-foster-hits-out-at-the-irishness-of-st-patricks-day/?fbclid=IwAR1VTpLuo7GWhd8jIk6CwIcXwrojwXAHcEm07-bvi4jFagvir88QwK5bC1M)

FORMER First Minister Arlene Foster has hit out at the ‘green’ focus of St Patrick’s Day celebrations, and has branded US President Joe Biden as “insulting” to unionists.

Ms Foster went on to hit out at Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who she said was “a very aggressive Irish nationalist”, and noted Speaker Pelosi’s inclusion of a cringe-worthy poem by Bono which likened Ireland to Ukraine.“During the couple of days when the Irish descend on Washington and other assorted cities the green beer is in full flow and in Chicago the very river is turned green,” she wrote.
“It is a green fest and if you come from the unionist tradition believe me it’s a very uncomfortable situation.

[Tommy75]

A Warning From History

If/when a border poll happens, anti-separatists will no doubt claim that the only way to guarantee continued access to the NHS is to vote No.
In the same way that anti-separatists once claimed that the only way to guarantee continued access to the EU was to vote No.

Not sure your reference to Brexit is relevant. If it comes to pass the people vote for a united Ireland, I assume the North would have to adopt the current model used in the Republic- in which case a lot will end up having to pay for health care.

[lucky]

A Warning From History

If/when a border poll happens, anti-separatists will no doubt claim that the only way to guarantee continued access to the NHS is to vote No.
In the same way that anti-separatists once claimed that the only way to guarantee continued access to the EU was to vote No.

What a stupid post. If Ireland becomes united then the NHS goes as health care is not free in Ireland. Trying to link a referendum in Ireland to a U.K. referendum on EU membership is ridiculous

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

A Warning From History

If/when a border poll happens, anti-separatists will no doubt claim that the only way to guarantee continued access to the NHS is to vote No.
In the same way that anti-separatists once claimed that the only way to guarantee continued access to the EU was to vote No.
There will be propaganda on either side of the debate. Also absolutely nothing like the Brexit referendum or indyref, this would be a referendum on NI becoming part of the Republic, not becoming a new state.

[Ozyhibby]

What a stupid post. If Ireland becomes united then the NHS goes as health care is not free in Ireland. Trying to link a referendum in Ireland to a U.K. referendum on EU membership is ridiculous

Nobody in Ireland would swap healthcare systems with NI if it meant they had to drop their standard of living down to NI’s.


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[lapsedhibee]

What a stupid post. If Ireland becomes united then the NHS goes as health care is not free in Ireland. Trying to link a referendum in Ireland to a U.K. referendum on EU membership is ridiculous

The point is that if the Tories are in power for much longer there may well not be an NHS worth speaking about anywhere in the UK, including Norniron. Unless you think Sunak and the Britannia Unchained crew have it as one of their top priorities. :faf:

[Stairway 2 7]

Actually stunned Ireland doesn't have free health care wtf. I thought everywhere in Europe just about had this. Just read that it's €100 to go to A&E and only 35% of the population get it free.

As much as I love Ireland that is backwards and needs changed. They are a prosperous great country that must have free healthcare to all. They need to watch Michael Moores sicko.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

The rise of Sinn Fein in the Republic hasn't really got anything to do with reunification but more to do with embracing social progressive change which has been remarkable over the last 20 years.
The duopoly that has controlled Ireland since independence is very much a Conservative establishment very much linked to the church.
30 years ago Ireland was still a socially backwards country but after scandal after scandal within the church and the rising prosperity of the people a modern socially Liberal culture has risen rapidly.
Sinn Fein have embraced that and offered the alternative to the ruling parties.
The Republic is now streets ahead of the North in almost every measurable aspect, I'm not sure many would want to be burdened with trying to accommodate and support a much poorer group of people, it could set them back a generation.
Especially when there's 1M unionists who would be hostile to the new country.

[PeeJay]

Actually stunned Ireland doesn't have free health care wtf. I thought everywhere in Europe just about had this. Just read that it's €100 to go to A&E and only 35% of the population get it free.

As much as I love Ireland that is backwards and needs changed. They are a prosperous great country that must have free healthcare to all. They need to watch Michael Moores sicko.

You thought Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France et al have free heath care?

[Ozyhibby]

Actually stunned Ireland doesn't have free health care wtf. I thought everywhere in Europe just about had this. Just read that it's €100 to go to A&E and only 35% of the population get it free.

As much as I love Ireland that is backwards and needs changed. They are a prosperous great country that must have free healthcare to all. They need to watch Michael Moores sicko.

Ireland has no interest in changing their system. Much as we all love our NHS, most European countries see it as inefficient and delivers poorer health outcomes.
I read somewhere that people in Northern Ireland take 9 times as many prescription drugs as Ireland. Is there a benefit to this? Are they living longer?


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[Ozyhibby]

You thought Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France et al have free heath care?

It’s not even free here. We all pay for it one way or another.


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[hibsbollah]

The point is that if the Tories are in power for much longer there may well not be an NHS worth speaking about anywhere in the UK, including Norniron. Unless you think Sunak and the Britannia Unchained crew have it as one of their top priorities. :faf:

Speaking to people with experience of the NHS, I dont think people in Scotland have a concept of how bad the NHS service has got in England, where in a lot of areas the middle class are being driven to Bupa or AXA because they cant get specialist services. It surprises me when the SNP govt get a hard time for the state of the NHS up here on their watch; experential evidence suggests we're less exposed to the Tory axe up here.

[Hibrandenburg]

Actually stunned Ireland doesn't have free health care wtf. I thought everywhere in Europe just about had this. Just read that it's €100 to go to A&E and only 35% of the population get it free.

As much as I love Ireland that is backwards and needs changed. They are a prosperous great country that must have free healthcare to all. They need to watch Michael Moores sicko.Germany's health care is anything but free, the government approved health insurance costs about 14.6% of income. However that not only covers a first class health system but also continued wage payments of 90% take home pay for long-term absence from work due to sickness. Employers are required to pay 100% pay for the first 6 weeks of absence and the health insurance then pays 90% after 6 weeks.

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[Ozyhibby]

Germany's health care is anything but free, the government approved health insurance costs about 14.6% of income. However that not only covers a first class health system but also continued wage payments of 90% take home pay for long-term absence from work due to sickness. Employers are required to pay 100% pay for the first 6 weeks of absence and the health insurance then pays 90% after 6 weeks.

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And if you get cancer in Germany your chance of surviving is much higher than in the UK.


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[Tommy75]

It’s not even free here. We all pay for it one way or another.


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True. But at least here it is free at the point of use.

[Ozyhibby]

True. But at least here it is free at the point of use.

In most of Europe, then is an insurance model so that it’s free at point of use there as well.


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[Hibrandenburg]

And if you get cancer in Germany your chance of surviving is much higher than in the UK.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot sure about any statistics but I guess quick referral to specialist treatment will boost survival chances.

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[Stairway 2 7]

You thought Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France et al have free heath care?

Yep. Never really had a reason to know otherwise. The amount of abuse America gets for not being free at the point of use, I assumed they were the outlier. You can always bring up statistics and outcomes, but no one should ever pay a penny for health care.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep. Never really had a reason to know otherwise. The amount of abuse America gets for not being free at the point of use, I assumed they were the outlier. You can always bring up statistics and outcomes, but no one should ever pay a penny for health care.

Everybody does though. Unless there is somewhere out there where docs and nurses work for free.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Everybody does though. Unless there is somewhere out there where docs and nurses work for free.


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Free for everybody after tax is paid, not an add on extra through choice. I read 35% get it free in Ireland and 45% have insurance, that's a big percentage left. Most parties in Ireland apparently wanting to move to free to all, which is good

[Newry Hibs]

Nobody in Ireland would swap healthcare systems with NI if it meant they had to drop their standard of living down to NI’s.


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I know people who live in the south, near the border, who have contact addresses in the north so they can use the norths healthcare. I dont think its a 'thing' to do the reverse.

[Ozyhibby]

I know people who live in the south, near the border, who have contact addresses in the north so they can use the norths healthcare. I dont think its a 'thing' to do the reverse.

Well if you can have free GP appointments but still have all the other benefits of living in much richer Ireland then why wouldn’t you?


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[lucky]

It’s not even free here. We all pay for it one way or another.


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But it’s free at the point of need. We all pay for everything through taxes but it only right that everyone gets the medical care they need from cradle to grave.

[Ozyhibby]

But it’s free at the point of need. We all pay for everything through taxes but it only right that everyone gets the medical care they need from cradle to grave.

Do we really get the care we need if we have to wait 18 months after a diagnoses for treatment?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Do we really get the care we need if we have to wait 18 months after a diagnoses for treatment?


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You think treatment would improve for all if nhs was privatised or just for the few.

[Ozyhibby]

You think treatment would improve for all if nhs was privatised or just for the few.

I’m not saying that. In Germany they have far better outcomes for all, so I would argue that maybe they have a better system?


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not saying that. In Germany they have far better outcomes for all, so I would argue that maybe they have a better system?


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That's one nation against another to prove a point. Germany has a better health care than Ireland and America, so the point doesn't work. In my opinion health care like university education should be free for all and through taxes. Anything else is elitist and pretty abhorrent, no matter how good the service is

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220328/4c2a11b42184d237b3dbeeb88b2f6e75.jpg


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[Stairway 2 7]

Should privatise the nhs then. No one should have to pay or have to pay insurance for Health, its barbaric. We should pay more tax towards it to improve it, but that's not a vote winner

[Paul1642]

Maybe a system where certain self inflicted ailments are paid for in a means tested manner. Would never be popular and will never happen (where would you draw the line?) but the current level of service from the NHS is pretty poor and I’m not sure throwing more money at it is a solution. That money comes can only come from tax at a time when folk are already stretched.

[Stairway 2 7]

Maybe a system where certain self inflicted ailments are paid for in a means tested manner. Would never be popular and will never happen (where would you draw the line?) but the current level of service from the NHS is pretty poor and I’m not sure throwing more money at it is a solution. That money comes can only come from tax at a time when folk are already stretched.

Increase tax on the higher wage bands

[JeMeSouviens]

Increase tax on the higher wage bands

Tax wealth.

[Kato]

Tax wealth.Biden announced he'd be increasing the US billionaires. A bit too novel for our govt.

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[Pagan Hibernia]

Looks very much like Sinn Fein are going to be the largest party.

some very interesting times ahead.

[Moulin Yarns]

Looks very much like Sinn Fein are going to be the largest party.

some very interesting times ahead.

Reunification referendum coming up.

[Bostonhibby]

Looks very much like Sinn Fein are going to be the largest party.

some very interesting times ahead.Democracy in action.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Looks very much like Sinn Fein are going to be the largest party.

some very interesting times ahead.

I read that their vote isn't as big as last time, but massive splits and arguments in the unionist side

[Pretty Boy]

Reunification referendum coming up.

Not a chance anytime soon.

Sinn Fein have been absolutely clear to all their activists and candidates that chat about reunification was off the table. They have run very much on a ticket of social and economic issues and have been putting their leftist credentials front and centre.

A United Ireland is the long, long term goal. There is no guarantee at all that the Nationalists would win holding a border poll anytime soon. If, or rather when, Sinn Fein take power in Dublin things will get more interesting.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I read that their vote isn't as big as last time, but massive splits and arguments in the unionist side

So far SF’s vote has increased by 1.1% since 2017 while the moderately nationalist SDLP’s has deceased.

you’re right about the unionists though

[Stairway 2 7]

So far SF’s vote has increased by 1.1% since 2017 while the moderately nationalist SDLP’s has deceased.

you’re right about the unionists though

Ah sorry it was a journalists talking about the polls but he's updated

Hugo Gye
@HugoGye
·
May 4
Great excitement re NI Assembly election - Sinn Fein v likely to be largest party - yes, a historic moment *but* nb not a single poll shows SF matching its vote share from 2017 this time around! Story is fragmentation of unionism not advance of nationalism.

Hugo Gye
@HugoGye
·
3h
Should note that Sinn Fein *did* beat its 2017 performance by ~1pt - the polls all underestimated the party - though the overall point does stand, SF has not made some great leap forward in the size of its support

AE22 First preference votes
(All 18 constituencies reporting)

🟢 SF 250,388 (29.0%)
🟠 DUP 184,002 (21.3%)
🟡 AP 116,681 (13.5%)
🔵 UUP 96,390 (11.2%)
🟩 SDLP 78,237 (9.1%)
🟦 TUV 65,788 (7.6%)
♻️ Green 16,433 (1.9%)
🟢 Aontú 12,777 (1.5%)
🟪 PBP 9,798 (1.1%)

[Pretty Boy]

Ah sorry it was a journalists talking about the polls but he's updated

Hugo Gye
@HugoGye
·
May 4
Great excitement re NI Assembly election - Sinn Fein v likely to be largest party - yes, a historic moment *but* nb not a single poll shows SF matching its vote share from 2017 this time around! Story is fragmentation of unionism not advance of nationalism.

Hugo Gye
@HugoGye
·
3h
Should note that Sinn Fein *did* beat its 2017 performance by ~1pt - the polls all underestimated the party - though the overall point does stand, SF has not made some great leap forward in the size of its support

AE22 First preference votes
(All 18 constituencies reporting)

🟢 SF 250,388 (29.0%)
🟠 DUP 184,002 (21.3%)
🟡 AP 116,681 (13.5%)
🔵 UUP 96,390 (11.2%)
🟩 SDLP 78,237 (9.1%)
🟦 TUV 65,788 (7.6%)
♻️ Green 16,433 (1.9%)
🟢 Aontú 12,777 (1.5%)
🟪 PBP 9,798 (1.1%)

Looking at that you have the overall nationalist vote (Sinn Fein, SDLP, Aontu and People Before Profit) sitting at 40.7%, the unionists (UUP, DUP, TUV) at 40.1% and the Greens and Alliance making up the bulk of the rest.

It's really all but as you were in terms of the side of the fence the vote falls, albeit there may be a slight shift in which 'side' holds the majority of the seats (currently 40 to 39 for the unionists).

[Ozyhibby]

Looking at that you have the overall nationalist vote (Sinn Fein, SDLP, Aontu and People Before Profit) sitting at 40.7%, the unionists (UUP, DUP, TUV) at 40.1% and the Greens and Alliance making up the bulk of the rest.

It's really all but as you were in terms of the side of the fence the vote falls, albeit there may be a slight shift in which 'side' holds the majority of the seats (currently 40 to 39 for the unionists).

But it’s really important to see if a nationalist Catholic FM is acceptable? It not, then what?


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Sinn Fein topping the poll is hugely significant symbolically, but the consequences for NI government mightn't be so seismic. The day to day governance of NI will still require the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive and will still require cooperation between the DUP and SF. In real terms it doesn't bring a united Ireland any closer; that will require a referendum, and it's too soon to win one. Changing demographics are the best chance for unity; not merely a growing Nationalist/Catholic population but an increasingly out of touch DUP on social issues. Someone (I can't remember who) recently described the DUP as the political wing of the Old Testament, which I thought was great. Attitudes amongst younger voters are much progressive than the DUP; if the party doesn't change it will continue losing support. Sinn Fein's much more progressive agenda on social and economic issues is a vote winner, though that mustn't be exaggerated in a deeply divided and sectarian society. Perhaps a more progressive party will emerge from within Unionism to take on the DUP.

Long term it seems re-unification will happen, just as it seems very likely Scottish independence will happen. Right now Unionism seems to be trying to hold back the tide, but that could change and nothing is inevitable.

[Ozyhibby]

Sinn Fein topping the poll is hugely significant symbolically, but the consequences for NI government mightn't be so seismic. The day to day governance of NI will still require the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive and will still require cooperation between the DUP and SF. It real terms it doesn't bring a united Ireland any closer; that will require a referendum, and it's too soon to win one. Changing demographics are the best chance for unity; not merely a growing Nationalist/Catholic population but an increasingly out of touch DUP on social issues. Someone (I can't remember who) recently described the DUP as the political wing of the Old Testament, which I thought was great. Attitudes amongst younger voters are much progressive than the DUP; if the party doesn't change it will continue losing support. Sinn Fein's much more progressive agenda on social and economic issues is a vote winner, though that mustn't be exaggerated in a deeply divided and sectarian society. Perhaps a more progressive party will emerge from within Unionism to take on the DUP.

Long term it seems re-unification will happen, just as it seems very likely Scottish independence will happen. Right now Unionism seems to be trying to hold back the tide, but that could change and nothing is inevitable.

I’m not sure it brings re-unification any closer but if the DUP refuse to form an administration with a nationalist FM then what message does it send to that community?


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[hibsbollah]

I’m not sure it brings re-unification any closer but if the DUP refuse to form an administration with a nationalist FM then what message does it send to that community?


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Don’t do business with the papes.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m not sure it brings re-unification any closer but if the DUP refuse to form an administration with a nationalist FM then what message does it send to that community?


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They are already saying that the NI Protocol must go before the DUP goes into the Assembly. It's their age old tactic to put pre-conditions (usually impossible ones) as a stumbling block to progress. It might require the British government to step in basically blackmail the DUP into playing their part.

[Pretty Boy]

They are already saying that the NI Protocol must go before the DUP goes into the Assembly. It's their age old tactic to put pre-conditions (usually impossible ones) as a stumbling block to progress. It might require the British government to step in basically blackmail the DUP into playing their part.

'We will never, never, never sit at a table with Sinn Fein until the IRA decommissions all of the NI protocol'

[Pagan Hibernia]

I’m not sure it brings re-unification any closer but if the DUP refuse to form an administration with a nationalist FM then what message does it send to that community?


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we’ll only respect the vote and take our seats if we win 🤣

[Pagan Hibernia]

Sinn Fein topping the poll is hugely significant symbolically, but the consequences for NI government mightn't be so seismic. The day to day governance of NI will still require the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive and will still require cooperation between the DUP and SF. In real terms it doesn't bring a united Ireland any closer; that will require a referendum, and it's too soon to win one. Changing demographics are the best chance for unity; not merely a growing Nationalist/Catholic population but an increasingly out of touch DUP on social issues. Someone (I can't remember who) recently described the DUP as the political wing of the Old Testament, which I thought was great. Attitudes amongst younger voters are much progressive than the DUP; if the party doesn't change it will continue losing support. Sinn Fein's much more progressive agenda on social and economic issues is a vote winner, though that mustn't be exaggerated in a deeply divided and sectarian society. Perhaps a more progressive party will emerge from within Unionism to take on the DUP.

Long term it seems re-unification will happen, just as it seems very likely Scottish independence will happen. Right now Unionism seems to be trying to hold back the tide, but that could change and nothing is inevitable.

there have been attempts before to form a more progressive unionist party. Even in this election the age old Establishment party the UUP have tried to rebrand themselves as the liberal wing of unionism. There’s just no appetite for it.

The DUP are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. They can’t afford to lose more of their traditional support by going soft on, well anything really, and yet they somehow need to find a way to make the union attractive to the progressive young generation in Northern Ireland who never lived through the troubles and therefore are less repulsed by Sinn Féin’s murky past. It’s the age old contradiction in unionism, and it will eventually, be their undoing. the world is changing around them and deep down they know it.

reunification will not happen soon. It may not even happen for decades. But the demographics will eventually change everything.

I personally think that by the year 2050 when I’ll be just shy of my 70th birthday, the UK as we know it will no longer exist

[Ozyhibby]

there have been attempts before to form a more progressive unionist party. Even in this election the age old Establishment party the UUP have tried to rebrand themselves as the liberal wing of unionism. There’s just no appetite for it.

The DUP are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. They can’t afford to lose more of their traditional support by going soft on, well anything really, and yet they somehow need to find a way to make the union attractive to the progressive young generation in Northern Ireland who never lived through the troubles and therefore are less repulsed by Sinn Féin’s murky past. It’s the age old contradiction in unionism, and it will eventually, be their undoing. the world is changing around them and deep down they know it.

reunification will not happen soon. It may not even happen for decades. But the demographics will eventually change everything.

I personally think that by the year 2050 when I’ll be just shy of my 70th birthday, the UK as we know it will no longer exist

Re-unification is already happening. NI has stayed inside the single market and customs union. Business there now has to look to Dublin now if they have trade issues. As British companies turn their back on NI, Irish companies are only too happy to fill the void.

https://www.export.org.uk/news/576960/North-to-south-trade-in-Ireland-jumps-in-value-as-NI-Protocol-impacts-flow-of-goods-over-Irish-Sea.htm


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[Pagan Hibernia]

Re-unification is already happening. NI has stayed inside the single market and customs union. Business there now has to look to Dublin now if they have trade issues. As British companies turn their back on NI, Irish companies are only too happy to fill the void.

https://www.export.org.uk/news/576960/North-to-south-trade-in-Ireland-jumps-in-value-as-NI-Protocol-impacts-flow-of-goods-over-Irish-Sea.htm


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constitutional reunification will take a bit longer

[Pretty Boy]

Re-unification is already happening. NI has stayed inside the single market and customs union. Business there now has to look to Dublin now if they have trade issues. As British companies turn their back on NI, Irish companies are only too happy to fill the void.

https://www.export.org.uk/news/576960/North-to-south-trade-in-Ireland-jumps-in-value-as-NI-Protocol-impacts-flow-of-goods-over-Irish-Sea.htm


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I think that may be part of the problem for the nationalists when trying to convince people full reunification is what they want in the short term though.

The nationalist community in NI have many of the benefits of continued EU membership, many identify as culturally Irish and that's far less problematic for them than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago, they can have a ROI passport if they desire etc etc. However they also get access to the NHS which is, in theory at least, a favourable system to that provided by the HSE and the powers that be in Dublin. Further it's an often ignored truth that the cultural links between the UK and Ireland are greater than that between Ireland and, as an example, Spain or France. The UK is still the number 1 destination for Irish immigrants, the BBC is readily available and UK sitcoms and the like are hugely popular. That's not to say that won't continue post unification but I truly believe the desire for it at the current time, on both sides of the border, is being greatly exaggerated. If there was a border poll tomorrow, the unionists would win.

[Bostonhibby]

we’ll only respect the vote and take our seats if we win [emoji1787]You have to do it in a big shouty purple faced voice for it to work.

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[Renfrew_Hibby]

Is there any scope for a completely independent N.Ireland?

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Is there any scope for a completely independent N.Ireland?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Independence_Movement


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Is there any scope for a completely independent N.Ireland?

I think it was the UDP, the political wing of one of the Loyalist paramilitary groups back in the day, that once advocated Northern Irish independence for a while. I think they quickly abandoned the idea because there was no support for it.

[DaveF]

In the least surprising news ever, the DUP refuse to form the NI govt due to their Brexit bleating.

[Pagan Hibernia]

In the least surprising news ever, the DUP refuse to form the NI govt due to their Brexit bleating.

they’re an anachronism. And history will judge them as such.

such is the dysfunctional nature of the stormont arrangements that the rest of the parties can’t just carry on without them

[Just Alf]

they’re an anachronism. And history will judge them as such.

such is the dysfunctional nature of the stormont arrangements that the rest of the parties can’t just carry on without themIt's crazy, I'm guessing there are good reasons for it originally but surely we are past the point that one (losing) party can effectively veto a parliament from serving its people.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's crazy, I'm guessing there are good reasons for it originally but surely we are past the point that one (losing) party can effectively veto a parliament from serving its people.

It's a weird arrangement but it guarantees that both nationalists and unionists are always represented in the government. Pressing ahead without by far the Unionist side's largest party would be tearing up the settlement. There's no way Sinn Fein would go for it anyway. it would be a recipe for a future Tory/DUP rewrite of the rules to attempt to go back to the bad old days.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's a weird arrangement but it guarantees that both nationalists and unionists are always represented in the government. Pressing ahead without by far the Unionist side's largest party would be tearing up the settlement. There's no way Sinn Fein would go for it anyway. it would be a recipe for a future Tory/DUP rewrite of the rules to attempt to go back to the bad old days.

'A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people' is how Stormont was conceived after partition. Gerrymandering further helped to that end.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Northern Ireland's one hundredth birthday celebrations this weekend. Staunch. :greengrin

They have the queen's platinum jubilee next week. They must be in permanent party mode just now.


https://youtu.be/2ZNrsG7ohHo

[JeMeSouviens]

NI voters support the protocol by 55%-38% (59% in favour ex-DK).

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/majority-of-ni-voters-are-in-favour-of-the-protocol-poll-41800239.html

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62111760

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62111760

30 year old man involved in building bonfire. [emoji102][emoji23]Darwin at work here I think.


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[tamig]

30 year old man involved in building bonfire. [emoji102][emoji23]Darwin at work here I think.


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Wtf was he doing trying to find windaes to clean on a pile of pallets? Erse.

[Hibernia&Alba]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62111760

What a beautiful structure to now be demolished. It's a terrible waste; they could have dressed the guy as the pope and given him a proper staunch cremation on the bonfire. It's what he would have wanted.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Glorious Twelfth :greengrin:greengrin

The staunch Jambo crackpot next door but one has his flags up again.

[Bostonhibby]

The Glorious Twelfth :greengrin:greengrin

The staunch Jambo crackpot next door but one has his flags up again.Has anyone told him he can't shoot a grouse for another month?

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

These bonfires are no different to the Klan and their burning crosses.

[Hibernia&Alba]

These bonfires are no different to the Klan and their burning crosses.

How dare you Sir. The annual July celebrations are all-inclusive and fun for all the family. There is nothing sinister in teaching the children to set fire to the Irish flag and effigies of Lundy, the pope and Gerry Adams (plus any British prime minister attempting to sell us out). Just like the KKK (fine people) there is nothing hate-filled and supremacist about reminding the Fenians of their second class status. Our friends in the white robes also have a proud history of virulent anti-Catholicism, but the far-right influence in Loyalism in no way indicates any valid comparison. In short, we are nothing like them, though we have similarities.

[Pretty Boy]

Good to see the Orange Order commemorate a victory for Pope Innocent XI over Louis XIV. Something of an insignificant battle, some would argue a proxy, in the bigger European picture of the day but important enough for a Mass of deliverance to be offered, a celebratory Te Deum to be sung and the bells of many of the Churches of Rome to be rung.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220712/55df4c6874e16d54240e8cc1c0d1842b.jpg


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[Hibernia&Alba]

GB News today, a 12th July parades live celebration special, with Arlene Foster :confused:


https://youtu.be/-PS9SLIo9r0

[Hibernia&Alba]

Benidorm Brits giving it laldy. If you didn't see it yourself, you wouldn't believe it.



https://youtu.be/npvhqp8Trog

[Pagan Hibernia]

“It’s a centenary thing that we celebrate every 12th July” :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

“It’s a centenary thing that we celebrate every 12th July” :greengrin

:agree:

Tis a glorious annual centenary about something or other.

[Carheenlea]

Wee Abdul enjoying the celebrations across the Irish Sea

https://twitter.com/joebrolly1993/status/1547207939563442177?s=21&t=xGFviRdepRid9xeVNySPKw

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Wee Abdul enjoying the celebrations across the Irish Sea

https://twitter.com/joebrolly1993/status/1547207939563442177?s=21&t=xGFviRdepRid9xeVNySPKw

He’s the embodiment of a man that’s never been slapped in the chops for acting a fud


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[Pretty Boy]

He’s the embodiment of a man that’s never been slapped in the chops for acting a fud


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I just feel sorry for him.

He obviously has a whole host of issues and people seem determined to use and encourage him.

He's going to end up seriously hurt one day.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I just feel sorry for him.

He obviously has a whole host of issues and people seem determined to use and encourage him.

He's going to end up seriously hurt one day.

Indeed, there is something deeply wrong with that wee guy and he needs help. Demeaning his own ethnicity in public for the entertainment of other bigots....

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I just feel sorry for him.

He obviously has a whole host of issues and people seem determined to use and encourage him.

He's going to end up seriously hurt one day.

I get that, but I struggle to feel sorry for someone that doesn’t learn their lesson, regardless. He needs help but he’s not going to seek it himself and judging on the way he refused to stay away from ibrox while on a banning order… can’t see him accepting it anyway. He is going to end up seriously hurt if he keeps stoking the flames of sectarian and racial hatred and cutting about with right wing nutjobs, though.


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[1875godsgift]

WTF is that all about???

https://twitter.com/BigDirtyFry/status/1547149466217635841?s=20&t=cNK9F9bk8Ew5CAC9PyqO1Q (https://twitter.com/BigDirtyFry/status/1547149466217635841?s=20&t=cNK9F9bk8Ew5CAC9PyqO1Q)

To me, it looks like some members of the Orange Order taking it up the Gary Glitter from some men from Mars, but there's perhaps some artistic nuances that I'm just unaware of?

[ronaldo7]

WTF is that all about???

https://twitter.com/BigDirtyFry/status/1547149466217635841?s=20&t=cNK9F9bk8Ew5CAC9PyqO1Q (https://twitter.com/BigDirtyFry/status/1547149466217635841?s=20&t=cNK9F9bk8Ew5CAC9PyqO1Q)

To me, it looks like some members of the Orange Order taking it up the Gary Glitter from some men from Mars, but there's perhaps some artistic nuances that I'm just unaware of?

It is Martian season.😱

[JeMeSouviens]

Alliance leader Naomi Long, who made it onto a bonfire. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1547182210884722688?s=20&t=PH8wL-ghwyA3K1Jgxt-1-A

All part of the kulchur dontcha know?

[speedy_gonzales]

It is Martian season.😱

Brilliant!

[Pagan Hibernia]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62980394

shocker of a month for northern Irish loyalists.

pumped at Celtic park, the death of Her Maj, and now what has long been inevitable has been confirmed.

historic changes coming in the next couple of decades.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62980394

shocker of a month for northern Irish loyalists.

pumped at Celtic park, the death of Her Maj, and now what has long been inevitable has been confirmed.

historic changes coming in the next couple of decades.

It's good headline making stuff but the biggest takeaway for me is that the Protestants seems to be becoming atheist faster than the Catholics. The really staunch brigade have arguably been a minority for years anyway, the hardliner Presbyterians don't regard the Episcopalian Church of Ireland as 'proper prods'.

The most interesting thing for me is the growth in people describing themselves as 'Northern Irish' only. I've argued for some time that even as demographics shift a border poll would be no slam dunk for the nationalists. I think there are people on both sides increasingly comfortable with their Northern Irish identity. On the nationalist side there are people who like the option of having the Irish passport and are proud of their Irish heritage and identity but who also enjoy the benefits of modern NI (the NHS is often cited here).

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch. The growth of Alliance as a political force as new generations who don't truly remember the Troubles find their political voice will be a story in itself. Since 1998 and the GFA they have more than doubled their number of votes, more than doubled their share of the vote (1st preference) and almost trebled the number of seats they have at Stormont. In another couple of decades the PIRA, UVF etc will be stories people hear about from their grandparents. It wouldn't be wholly unsurprising if issues other than the Union become far more central to dictating peoples voting preferences.

[Ozyhibby]

It's good headline making stuff but the biggest takeaway for me is that the Protestants seems to be becoming atheist faster than the Catholics. The really staunch brigade have arguably been a minority for years anyway, the hardliner Presbyterians don't regard the Episcopalian Church of Ireland as 'proper prods'.

The most interesting thing for me is the growth in people describing themselves as 'Northern Irish' only. I've argued for some time that even as demographics shift a border poll would be no slam dunk for the nationalists. I think there are people on both sides increasingly comfortable with their Northern Irish identity. On the nationalist side there are people who like the option of having the Irish passport and are proud of their Irish heritage and identity but who also enjoy the benefits of modern NI (the NHS is often cited here).

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch. The growth of Alliance as a political force as new generations who don't truly remember the Troubles find their political voice will be a story in itself. Since 1998 and the GFA they have more than doubled their number of votes, more than doubled their share of the vote (1st preference) and almost trebled the number of seats they have at Stormont. In another couple of decades the PIRA, UVF etc will be stories people hear about from their grandparents. It wouldn't be wholly unsurprising if issues other than the Union become far more central to dictating peoples voting preferences.

I agree mostly. I think though that what is most important for the long term though is the growth in people who are open to a united Ireland. That turns NI’s place in the union into a very transactional agreement. The union is going to have to start delivering a higher standard of living than Ireland does or people will start to ask why not?
Also the change in the figures over the last 10 years is quite startling for unionists.
The growth in NI only people is interesting but only if it’s on a future ballot paper? At 19% it doesn’t stand a chance of winning but could change the result either way?
If the next 10 years are like the last 10 years then I don’t see how NI stays in the union? Unionists need to find a way to start appealing to Catholic voters soon or they are in trouble.


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[Pagan Hibernia]

It's good headline making stuff but the biggest takeaway for me is that the Protestants seems to be becoming atheist faster than the Catholics. The really staunch brigade have arguably been a minority for years anyway, the hardliner Presbyterians don't regard the Episcopalian Church of Ireland as 'proper prods'.

The most interesting thing for me is the growth in people describing themselves as 'Northern Irish' only. I've argued for some time that even as demographics shift a border poll would be no slam dunk for the nationalists. I think there are people on both sides increasingly comfortable with their Northern Irish identity. On the nationalist side there are people who like the option of having the Irish passport and are proud of their Irish heritage and identity but who also enjoy the benefits of modern NI (the NHS is often cited here).

It's certainly going to be interesting to watch. The growth of Alliance as a political force as new generations who don't truly remember the Troubles find their political voice will be a story in itself. Since 1998 and the GFA they have more than doubled their number of votes, more than doubled their share of the vote (1st preference) and almost trebled the number of seats they have at Stormont. In another couple of decades the PIRA, UVF etc will be stories people hear about from their grandparents. It wouldn't be wholly unsurprising if issues other than the Union become far more central to dictating peoples voting preferences.

oh I agree, there’s certainly no guarantees of anything. The NHS and other things will continue to play a role in the debate. And the younger generation are a lot less interested in the wars of the past.

the problem the unionists have is that the gap is only going to widen from now on. The Protestant population (and I despise talking about sectarian headcounts like this but in NI it sadly is what it is) is much older than their Catholic counterparts. The fact that the last decade has seen a moderate increase in the Catholic population but a huge decrease in the Protestant one is telling.

the dysfunctional stormont set-up could also play a part. How long will people put up with an assembly that’s down more often than it’s running when there is an alternative?

it’s going to be fascinating (and probably very toxic).

[Newry Hibs]

Whilst there is the very obvious link between Catholics and nationalism and Prods and unionism - I think a better question would have been 'are you for the UK or ireland?' - Bit like a border poll :)

Point was made above, that a fair chunk of people are 'happy enough' being in the UK and see any move to a united ireland as a risk. But I also agree that that could easily change if life becomes harder here and better down south.

To me, there is more 'peer pressure' to be / remain Catholic than there is on the Prod side - but I think any lapsed Prod or atheist from that background would also be very firmly against a united ireland.

[Pretty Boy]

Whilst there is the very obvious link between Catholics and nationalism and Prods and unionism - I think a better question would have been 'are you for the UK or ireland?' - Bit like a border poll :)

Point was made above, that a fair chunk of people are 'happy enough' being in the UK and see any move to a united ireland as a risk. But I also agree that that could easily change if life becomes harder here and better down south.

To me, there is more 'peer pressure' to be / remain Catholic than there is on the Prod side - but I think any lapsed Prod or atheist from that background would also be very firmly against a united ireland.

Interesting point.

I was baptised Catholic at a young age and among my peers, particularly at primary school, I would say it was a 50/50 split between those who attended Mass and those who didn't. My mum took me weekly but as soon as I could make my own choice I was out of there. Admittedly I have 'found my way back' in recent years and both my own children are now baptised, I was married in the Church etc. Among the Catholics I knew and know it was almost universal (no pun intended) that if your parents or a parent were Catholic then you would be baptised and probably go on to make your first Holy Communion and be confirmed. On the 'other side' (and I really hate using that phrase) there was more of a 3 way split. A tiny minority who were christened in the local Kirk and actually attended services and Sunday school. A sizeable number who were christened but never went to Kirk outside the harvest festival when the non dom schools of the day made them and finally a comparably sizeable number who despite having CoS parents were never taken to be dunked in the font themselves.

I know of school friends who haven't been near a church outside a wedding or funeral in years who have still had their kids baptised because it's 'family tradition'. The religious aspect is a pretty minor consideration. You wonder how many of the will still tick Roman Catholic on a census form because it's nominally true even if it isn't reflective of their actual beliefs.

I would actually contend that part of it is indirectly theologically driven. Catholic Churches are just nicer. They make good wedding photos and there is a pomp and ceremony about a baptism. On the flip side Presbyterian churches are, to my papist eyes at any rate, just a bit austere. To quote Sister Michael in Derry Girls 'I do like a good statue'. The Calvinist theology around not praying for the dead has always left me feeling the CoS funerals I have attened have been cold and distant even when the Minister has tried their best to make it not so. There's something a bit comforting about prayers actually for the deceased, incense getting thrown about and the like in the Catholic equivalent. Obviously 'theologically driven' is a stretch but the layout of the environment is driven by the theologies. The more colourful nature of a Catholic Mass arguably makes it more of an appealing option for those big occasions that a whitewashed room with a wooden cross is never going to match. It's arguably a reason why Catholics are more inclined to keep one (left:greengrin) foot in the door so to speak

[gbhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/catholics-outnumber-protestants-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time-since-its-creation-12703074
Who would have thought it. Maybe some of those who follow a certain team may move to help redress the balance.
Seriously there are more to the figures than the headlines. Don't think Westminster will ever allow a referendum in NI.



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[Pagan Hibernia]

As council election results pour in, several things are becoming clear:

-Sinn Féin’s momentum shows absolutely no sign of slowing… it’s another fantastic result for them.
-Most Unionists support the DUP and TUV’s Protocal/Framework stance against returning to Stormont.
-the unionist vote overall continues to shrink.

as has been said a million times, the third point doesn’t necessarily mean a border poll will automatically go the way of nationalists, but it’s starting to look increasingly inevitable in the future. Imo as the gap widens over the next couple of decades then we will see a tipping point where the nationalists will not need all of ‘their’ community to vote for unity, they’ll only need some of it.

for the unionists, it’s very hard to see what their strategy can be now that they’ve boxed themselves into a corner. To have any chance of preserving the union they surely need to give it the hard sell, persuade the moderate middle ground that Northern Ireland is a place that works, that’s worth keeping. Yet in an unbelievable act of self sabotage they’ve gone the other direction and collapsed the power sharing institutions indefinitely.. proving to everyone that the place is unworkable.

[Pretty Boy]

As council election results pour in, several things are becoming clear:

-Sinn Féin’s momentum shows absolutely no sign of slowing… it’s another fantastic result for them.
-Most Unionists support the DUP and TUV’s Protocal/Framework stance against returning to Stormont.
-the unionist vote overall continues to shrink.

as has been said a million times, the third point doesn’t necessarily mean a border poll will automatically go the way of nationalists, but it’s starting to look increasingly inevitable in the future. Imo as the gap widens over the next couple of decades then we will see a tipping point where the nationalists will not need all of ‘their’ community to vote for unity, they’ll only need some of it.

for the unionists, it’s very hard to see what their strategy can be now that they’ve boxed themselves into a corner. To have any chance of preserving the union they surely need to give it the hard sell, persuade the moderate middle ground that Northern Ireland is a place that works, that’s worth keeping. Yet in an unbelievable act of self sabotage they’ve gone the other direction and collapsed the power sharing institutions indefinitely.. proving to everyone that the place is unworkable.

I'm just waiting to read Jamie Bryson's take on it all. He was already verging on unhinged, this will see him fall into full on insanity.