Saving the High Street

[Pretty Boy]

This was briefly touched on when I posted a thread about the proposals for the redevelopment of George Street a few weeks back.

I read yesterday that John Lewis are to close 8 stores including their shop in Aberdeen. Unlike the Frasers site in Edinburgh I don't think there will be a multinational ready to build a visitor centre on that substantial site.

So how do we regenerate city and town centres to the benefit of businesses, citizens and the areas as a whole? I'm wary of the suggestion that placing additional taxation on online businesses is the answer. Of course targeting Amazon and the like isn't an unattractive prospect but it would also impact small online retailers. Would taxing email to prop up the Royal Mail be a sensible suggestion?

For me it comes down to lowering business rates to make a bricks and mortar site more attractive. A quick Google suggests rates of £70K+ a year aren't uncommon in central Edinburgh. That's a non starter for a lot of small businesses when you consider they have substantial rents, often 6 figures, on top of that. That still doesn't solve the problem that for many out of town retail parks are a more inviting option and for a certain demographic online retailing is the past, present and future. I've argued before that turning town centres into cultural hubs for the people by the people would be one way to draw people in. Add to that creating a cafe culture and giving people a reason to visit a town centre. I would also argue businesses could adapt by adopting a hybrid business model. It's not uncommon in rural areas for a retail shop to also offer hot drinks and snacks. Could that be scaled up in towns and cities for shops to also offer something like events spaces and showcase local produce for example?

I think it's a particularly pressing question for a growing city like Edinburgh where locals are increasingly living further and further from the centre of the city.

[hibsbollah]

Commercial property is facing a cataclysm, the changes towards remote working are permanent. I’m just hoping what follows is an increase in supply of property and price reductions for tenants in both commercial and residential. Just imagine being able to see bands in Edinburgh again, or going to independently owned clubs or bars or community enterprises that aren’t tied to ridiculous unaffordable leases.

[Northernhibee]

Shops have to become more niche and offer more in the way of expertise. It I want convenience or the lowest price, a physical store can’t compete with the internet.

Most of my shopping is now specialist stores - record shops where I can have a discussion with any member of staff about music and get recommendations, even advice on where best to get a record player fixed etc.

Also love an old fashioned tea or coffee shop where they will happily let you take all the time in choosing what tea you want and speak with passion.

The internet can’t compete with the human touch and genuine on tap knowledge and expertise and that’s the route the high street has to go down.

[Keith_M]

I don't think there's one single change we can make to save the High Street, and my personal feeling is that the High Street will be very different (though not necessarily non-existent) in the next few years.


However, to address your points....


Business Rates: Yes, there is an unfair burden on shops, compared to their online competitors. However, local councils rely on the taxes brought in from businesses so removing it, or even drastically reducing it, will have serious consequences on the services we currently take for granted... unless a replacement is found elsewhere, which brings me to the next point....


Tax Avoidance: Companies like Amazon already have a massive advantage over High Street shops in regards to rent, rates, building maintenance, etc, so I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss the notion that they should be forced to pay taxes.

The amount that Amazon, and others, pay in corporation tax, through various scams, is a total disgrace and needs to be clamped down on. Perhaps if they were paying their fair share, the business rates wouldn't have to be so high.


The High Street: It has already been under attack for decades, from out of town shopping centres. Online retailing is just the next round in this battle.

There's an argument that we don't necessarily need as many shops in a central location, and especially when it's multitudes of almost identical Department Stores. So, maybe a 'slimming down' is required, with more of a mix between residential and shopping.

Also, the type of shops we currently have are far too bland, with every shop selling the same products. Maybe smaller, locally owned and 'niche' shops are the answer.

Finally, retailers have to do more to make the experience of visiting their shops a bit more pleasant. Quite a lot of shops I've visited since coming back to Scotland just over three years ago are an absolute disgrace, and are hardly likely to entice people away from shopping at Amazon.

[Northernhibee]

Should also say my previous post also requires companies to not view retail staff as minimum wage turn up and churn it out automatons and will need to pay a small amount more for staff and experience.

I work farmers markets as one part of my job and when you see each stall holder being passionate, knowledgable and comfortable talking about their product, know how and where it’s made, can recommend for people how to use it, people are willing to pay for that.

I used to manage a Blockbuster store and they were minimum wage for retail staff (as a store manager I was on a pittance with no bonuses or overtime). Nobody wanted to be there, nobody cared and no wonder they were grim places to visit in the end. I guarantee you though that if you paid a tiny bit more, incentivised staff to give good service and knowledge then the company would have had a place in the market, if not to the same scale it was.

[Ozyhibby]

Do away with property based taxes and increase VAT to make up the difference. If fact do away with corporation tax as well. VAT is a very difficult tax to avoid.


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[weecounty hibby]

Sadly the rise of Asda/Tesco etc have meant that the local butcher, Baker, clothes shops etc all struggle. We have 24 hour tesco and you can buy anything from brake fluid for the car to clothes to tech and of course all the usual groceries. It is a one stop shop for folk.
We use a local butcher for all our meat and it is far superior to the supermarket offering albeit a wee bit more expensive. Alloa town centre used to be a busy wee place with shops and pubs but the pubs are all but gone and we now have a host of charity shops, bookies and takeaways and barbers. Its a sorry looking place nowadays sadly and will only get worse.
The best day is when there is a farmers market, its great to see the High Street busy with stalls and people genuinely interacting with each other. Things like that need to be encouraged. We have spent a lot of time in France and the street markets are superb, they also seem to have managed to keep their local shops open as well. The wee town we used to visit probably has a population of about 2/3000 but had multiple bakeries, greengrocers and butchers.

[Hibrandenburg]

Austerity has been the final nail in the coffin of the High Street after it became terminally ill when large stores and supermarkets moved out of town centres. Online retail sped up the process and small retail businesses have become financially unviable and our trickle down society has become a drip down one and thus further starving normal consumers of excess cash that small businesses depend upon. It's become a downward spiral that can only be reversed by paying higher wages and creating a trickle up society, but that would mean taking on the big multi national businesses and nobody would appear to have the balls or will to do so.

[Hibby Bairn]

Do away with property based taxes and increase VAT to make up the difference. If fact do away with corporation tax as well. VAT is a very difficult tax to avoid.


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I'm not sure wholesale move to VAT would work as it is a tax on consumers (would retail prices reduce to compensate from shift in taxation from businesses to consumers?). But I do believe some kind of sales tax should be placed on international based retailers who quite clearly do not pay into the tax pot. Amazon, for example, sold an estimated £27bn in the UK last year but paid around £290m in tax. Because of the way they are structured it is difficult to work out profits in the UK. So we should think about something akin to fuel duty for international retailers like this. Say 10p for every £1 of sales.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not sure wholesale move to VAT would work as it is a tax on consumers (would retail prices reduce to compensate from shift in taxation from businesses to consumers?). But I do believe some kind of sales tax should be placed on international based retailers who quite clearly do not pay into the tax pot. Amazon, for example, sold an estimated £27bn in the UK last year but paid around £290m in tax. Because of the way they are structured it is difficult to work out profits in the UK. So we should think about something akin to fuel duty for international retailers like this. Say 10p for every £1 of sales.

But Amazon's customers presumably aready paid 20% VAT on those £27Bn sales?

[Smartie]

I own a city centre business.

The location we have would possibly have been one of the best in Scotland when I bought the business a decade ago and I paid an arm and a leg to secure it, pretty much sacrificing my thirties to make it happen.

It's been really interesting to see how what would be considered to be "a good location" has changed over that time. Funnily enough, many people have a far more positive opinion of our location that I as the owner have - I see the direction of travel and I understand the problems the future will bring.

All of the suggestions made so far are valid but I think the onus still remains upon the businesses themselves to change, adapt, remain relevant and give people what they want. Covid brought many problems but with it came opportunities for many and the businesses who are able to adapt to people's changing behaviours will survive and thrive.

I'm trying to remain positive and I think we'll be fine as one way or another there will still be lots of people who will want what we offer in the area. Those people might be different people though, so a good marketing head will be required.

The people I feel most for are the likes of the small, independent sandwich shop who rely on big footfall for multiple low margin transactions without the financial clout and recognisable brand of a Greggs or Pret. You can see the panic in their eyes as they just try to keep the doors open and continue to attract business. One of the main reasons why I've not set foot in a Greggs or Pret since lockdown began, and I'm sure there will be many more like me.

I don't have a good relationship with the council and have next to zero faith in their ability to do anything to help. Rates are extortionate and they continually come up with plans which kill business rather than help it, so I'd consider anything useful they did to be an unlikely bonus. They're more likely to come up with a lunatic decision that will kill us all off than to do anything that would actually be positive and help.

Bottom line is though - people will always want to be in or around Edinburgh City Centre, no matter how hard or unattractive the council try to make it, and as long as that is the case, business of some sort will thrive.

[wookie70]

I think the decline is terminal. Edge of town shopping centres like the Gyle and Kinnaird Park reduced business and most drivers will choose those locations. The Trams didn't help in Edinburgh and then online shopping is the final nail in the coffin. Lots of trade that would have come from office workers has been gone for a year and much of that will never return. I can't see how the City Centre of Edinburgh ever recovers in terms of retail and also office work. I suspect there may be more houses built where shops and offices once stood. That is a good thing in my view but they will likely be soulless poorly designed flats catering for those with lots of cash. It would be great if social/low cost housing could be built and designed so it was great to look at and live in. Look at the Alexandra Estate in London that design wise still looks good. I just hope the council form a long term strategy. Glasgow has done an amazing job making the city centre more vibrant and better looking and I think Edinburgh has went backwards in the last 20 or 30 years. Perhaps the decline of shops and offices could spark a revival of the City Centre as a place to live.

[Jones28]

I would cautiously suggest that medium to large businesses will suffer, but the smaller businesses who will (hopefully) reap the rewards of cheaper city centre rents, will be in a position where they might be able to pick up city centre properties for much less. It might even see a real renaissance of high street retail but with small, independent businesses.

All this is most likely very wishful thinking.

[lord bunberry]

I never go into town due to the fact that taking the car is practically impossible. I understand the reasons for cutting access for vehicles, but for me it means I just go elsewhere. The fort is nearby for me and they now have places where I can go for something to eat and I can park the car. The more pedestrianisation that’s done will mean less people like me heading there. If I lived in Leith that wouldn’t be an issue, but my location means I can’t be bothered getting a bus or train.

[Hibby Bairn]

But Amazon's customers presumably aready paid 20% VAT on those £27Bn sales?

Yes. Just like we all pay 20% VAT on petrol. And 57p fuel duty.

[HappyAsHellas]

Why do the stores that close down here remain open in other countries such as Germany? I'm not one for toddling round the shops as I hate the bloody things but in Germany there seemed to be a lot of very individual small outlets beside the big guys and everywhere seemed busy. What do they do that we don't? As I say this is not a subject I'm really clued up on, just observations when abroad. Looked the same in Athens as well now I think about it.

[Hibs4185]

My wife and I travelled to Dundee for a night away when lockdown ended last year. We went for a bit of shopping, a few drinks and dinner.

The high street was the same shops as back home. Every high street is the same with the same names and offerings. We ended up not spending a penny and instead found a few independent bars and having a few drinks.

Ill happily spend £3 on a loaf of bread from an independent bakery but I’d never spend more than £2 for a loaf of bread from a supermarket. This is where I think the answer lies. People will do their main big ticket weekly shopping online where it is cheaper and hopefully the high street will be left to small independent businesses to fill the gap.

I get the feeling that people are tending to snub multi national retailers in favour of small local traders. Like going back in time 40 years ago where you know the owner of the bakery or butcher down the road. I often visit Melrose and the veg shop there is heaving as is the butchers and bakeries.

Melrose is an anomaly however but I do feel there is a trend for going back in time so to speak.

In order for small businesses to make a living and succeed then no doubt the conditions in terms of rates and help available have to be overhauled and the taxation system for the multi national companies needs to be looked at to offset the benefits for the small traders.

Developers are also being encouraged to provide car free housing developments in Edinburgh so people will be shopping locally rather than travelling to a massive Asda or Tesco.

[Northernhibee]

Dundee shops are brilliant - but only on the side streets. Perth road has some great places as well as Commercial St (two record shops!) and more.

Same with a lot of places now though, you’re quite right.

[Just Alf]

I never go into town due to the fact that taking the car is practically impossible. I understand the reasons for cutting access for vehicles, but for me it means I just go elsewhere. The fort is nearby for me and they now have places where I can go for something to eat and I can park the car. The more pedestrianisation that’s done will mean less people like me heading there. If I lived in Leith that wouldn’t be an issue, but my location means I can’t be bothered getting a bus or train.I'm pretty much the same, the saviour of the city centre (as opposed to 'The high street') would be to make it beneficial for these large empty properties to be made in homes or hotels, anything to stop them being empty for years.

This would create a population on the 'door step'.

Rates etc could also be reviewed, maybe massively discounted for cafe's and bars on ground floor properties along Princes St, do similar on George st and side streets for smaller retailers
Over time this would slowly create a cafe culture with a castle view :greengrin and hopefully create a high street shopping community in nearby streets

People would still head out to the out of town places but many will order their bog standard groceries etc online.
Bottom line, the majority of their quality time shopping and socialising could be done locally and in walking distance.

How to pay for it all is a big question and of course this is just Edinburgh!



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[The Modfather]

I enjoy clothes and shoes. I’ve found myself having fewer and fewer shops in the city centre that are worth looking in over the years. For a capital city I think we are criminally short on the bigger brands having their own shops.

The brands I like are still sold in lots of places but it’s the mainstream, bog standard range, which invariably ranges from dull to chavvy. Whenever I’m in a different city I keep an eye out for any stores of the brands I like as their range is usually a lot better and more unique than the mass market stuff. A better variety of shops that sell the mass market ranges and the shops that sell the more unique items in that brands range would get me into town more. Hopefully the new St James centre will have more of those kind of shops.

[stu in nottingham]

I agree with the poster who said the decline is terminal. It seems that retail parks are going to be more popular that city centres for retail in the future. Large department stores are in decline and so are shopping malls, the latter only just beginning to become visible in the UK but commonplace to see disused and derelict malls in North America for instance. City centre, as others have said will surely hold mostly niche businesses in the future.

Here, the city centre is under a massive shift. Always one of the more popular retail centres years ago, Nottingham is now converting and building huge complexes of student accommodation centrally in the city. These developments typically have several hundred student apartments in them. The two universities are now major employers in the city where once, bicycles (Raleigh), pharmaceuticals (Boots) and cigarettes (Players) were king, along with coal mining and industries such as print and brewing.

Nottingham will be an interesting pilot as one of the two large shopping malls is now half demolished and stalled in that terrible state due to the company who were to rebuild it going bust. Interestingly, what is now being proposed is not retail of any kind but rather a large eco-style parkland smack in the city centre on what is a very large tract of land. There will be some homes too. Local residents are very much in support of it too. A once in a generation opportunity for massive change.

[SteveHFC]

I enjoy clothes and shoes. I’ve found myself having fewer and fewer shops in the city centre that are worth looking in over the years. For a capital city I think we are criminally short on the bigger brands having their own shops.

The brands I like are still sold in lots of places but it’s the mainstream, bog standard range, which invariably ranges from dull to chavvy. Whenever I’m in a different city I keep an eye out for any stores of the brands I like as their range is usually a lot better and more unique than the mass market stuff. A better variety of shops that sell the mass market ranges and the shops that sell the more unique items in that brands range would get me into town more. Hopefully the new St James centre will have more of those kind of shops.

I would rather go through to Livingston or Glasgow for a day out clothes shopping than stay in Edinburgh. But most of the time i get my clothes online.

[lord bunberry]

Is it true that ocean terminal is turning into one of those designer outlet villages like they have in Livingstone?

[Pretty Boy]

Is it true that ocean terminal is turning into one of those designer outlet villages like they have in Livingstone?

Yep. Portia or something it is going to be called.

[Pretty Boy]

I agree with the poster who said the decline is terminal. It seems that retail parks are going to be more popular that city centres for retail in the future. Large department stores are in decline and so are shopping malls, the latter only just beginning to become visible in the UK but commonplace to see disused and derelict malls in North America for instance. City centre, as others have said will surely hold mostly niche businesses in the future.

Here, the city centre is under a massive shift. Always one of the more popular retail centres years ago, Nottingham is now converting and building huge complexes of student accommodation centrally in the city. These developments typically have several hundred student apartments in them. The two universities are now major employers in the city where once, bicycles (Raleigh), pharmaceuticals (Boots) and cigarettes (Players) were king, along with coal mining and industries such as print and brewing.

Nottingham will be an interesting pilot as one of the two large shopping malls is now half demolished and stalled in that terrible state due to the company who were to rebuild it going bust. Interestingly, what is now being proposed is not retail of any kind but rather a large eco-style parkland smack in the city centre on what is a very large tract of land. There will be some homes too. Local residents are very much in support of it too. A once in a generation opportunity for massive change.

I do find it interesting that retail parks seem to be doing OK but shopping centres are in decline.

I live 5 minutes from Fort Kinnaird and in normal times it's always busy. If anything too busy, the road infrastructure can't cope and the new build estates popping up all around Shawfair, Newcraighall and The Wisp add to that. A lot of the shops have been tarted up in recent times and the likes of Tessuti have moved in adding a higher price point offering to TK Maxx, Primark etc. Any vacant lots that come up don't stay empty for long.

Compare that to some of Edinburgh's shopping centres. Cameron Toll, Gyle, Ocean Terminal are all in decline and have been for years. In the case of the latter 2 they were in decline almost as soon as they opened.

All the centres offer ample parking, they all have food offerings and other entertainment beyond shopping to tempt people and none are city centre yet they are struggling. On the face of it they don't offer any less potential than an outdoor retail park yet one is doing well and the others are toiling.

[Jack]

As others have already mentioned unless the tax regimes around retail and to an extent hospitality are overhauled the High Street and city centres are dead ducks. Many are already a wilderness when offices are closed for the day.

Something that's not been mentioned so far is alternative use for the buildings that are empty now and those that will become empty. I'm thinking hotels, office blocks and shopping malls.

Hotels could become transition hostels for the homeless.

Office blocks tend to be built so they can easily be remodelled. These could become the 'homes' that become central in a National Care Service.

Shopping malls could be remodelled to become gated communities, I'm mostly thinking for able bodied oldies. Only because they'd likely be high volume folk who would be out and about as opposed to high end penthouse types.

[overdrive]

Yep. Portia or something it is going to be called.

I think that plan has been scrapped unless something has changed.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/business/plans-rename-ocean-terminal-porta-dropped-amid-ps10m-investment-2884946

[Pretty Boy]

As others have already mentioned unless the tax regimes around retail and to an extent hospitality are overhauled the High Street and city centres are dead ducks. Many are already a wilderness when offices are closed for the day.

Something that's not been mentioned so far is alternative use for the buildings that are empty now and those that will become empty. I'm thinking hotels, office blocks and shopping malls.

Hotels could become transition hostels for the homeless.

Office blocks tend to be built so they can easily be remodelled. These could become the 'homes' that become central in a National Care Service.

Shopping malls could be remodelled to become gated communities, I'm mostly thinking for able bodied oldies. Only because they'd likely be high volume folk who would be out and about as opposed to high end penthouse types.

I can't stand the guy but Tim Martin ran a promotion last year that showed what price pubs could sell alcohol at if they were given the same favourable tax conditions as supermarkets.

Of course he was at it and it was self promotion but it did raise an interesting issue as to how sit in hospitality competes with supermarkets on price when one is VAT exempt on food and uses it to subsidise other savings and the other is not.

[stu in nottingham]

All the centres offer ample parking, they all have food offerings and other entertainment beyond shopping to tempt people and none are city centre yet they are struggling. On the face of it they don't offer any less potential than an outdoor retail park yet one is doing well and the others are toiling.

I tend to think that parking has a massive influence. The parking to visit our city centre malls is pretty steep for a few hours' shopping. You're like to queue and negotiate a ridiculous one-way system. Shoppers can go to an out-of-town retail park, park up free and walk straight into the shops. The Council here has done a great job in driving custom away from the city centre by making on-street and public car park parking expensive and hard to find, maintaining that people can take buses or trams into the city. I understand the ecological argument but what it has done is push people towards out-of-town retail and dining. I know many who won't eat in the city because they prefer to drive straight into a pub-restaurant car park and park free. I know of many people who even jump on the M1 and do an 80-mile round trip to Sheffield Meadowhall mall to shop. Strange to me but there you go.

Seems to me that much of the city economy runs on people in-situ in the city, such as office workers and students. It is quite amazing to see what was a hugely thriving city dying on its ass very rapidly.

It's notable here that some arguaby better quality businesses such as large Marks & Spencer have now opened on retail parks where only one store remains in the city centre.


As others have already mentioned unless the tax regimes around retail and to an extent hospitality are overhauled the High Street and city centres are dead ducks. Many are already a wilderness when offices are closed for the day.

Something that's not been mentioned so far is alternative use for the buildings that are empty now and those that will become empty. I'm thinking hotels, office blocks and shopping malls.

Hotels could become transition hostels for the homeless.

Office blocks tend to be built so they can easily be remodelled. These could become the 'homes' that become central in a National Care Service.

Practically everything that can be here is converted into student accommodation. Buildings ranging in size from ex-pubs and shops up to huge office complexes with accommodating hundreds of students.

Interestingly, I noticed a large hotel has been commandeered as a Nightingale Court of Law. Apparently, this is to ease a backlog of 9,000 cases which have been unable to be dealt with during the pandemic.


Shopping malls could be remodelled to become gated communities, I'm mostly thinking for able bodied oldies. Only because they'd likely be high volume folk who would be out and about as opposed to high end penthouse types.

Interesting idea. Our second mall built 46 years ago is being demolished to basically build green city centre space arguably more suited to post-Covid use and the decrease in retail. The slump in UK malls is possibly a little behind many countries. I'm not sure but I don't get the feeling that many ex-malls have been converted to good use.

https://sephlawless.com/inside-creepiest-abandoned-malls/

https://www.lovemoney.com/gallerylist/86732/abandoned-shopping-malls-across-the-world