Old Firm B teams in Division 2

[SJNB Hibby]

Surprised not to see a thread on this report on the BBC website

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56412970

[stuart-farquhar]

Surprised not to see a thread on this report on the BBC website

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56412970

All about them as always. The bloated bros. Over sized, over pandered and over here. They need trimming not growing. They and their followers remind me of those sad geese fattened by gavage to produce pate de fois gras. Way to big for the natural size.

[whereswallace?]

There are many teams in the Lowland, Highland and East/West of Scotland leagues who have spent fortunes improving their grounds for SFA licensing who are being bypassed by this. I think if they want colt teams then they should enter at tier 7 like everyone else and work their way up.

[Onion]

Surprised not to see a thread on this report on the BBC website

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56412970

Tell them to slink off. These two clubs are a stain on Scottish society. Very last thing we need is even more excuses for the media to spend more time discussing the Old Firm, showing more OF games and policing more Sevco and Celtic games. Also, the perfect pre-cursor for them to ditch Scotland but still be able to dominate our game. None of this sounds like good idea for a club like Hibs and we should reject it out of hand.

[Diclonius]

Can they **** off with this ****?

[offshorehibby]

Did the leagues not vote against B teams last season or am i thinking of something else.

[Oscar T Grouch]

I wonder how Hibs are going to vote on this? Totally against colt teams being near the league system myself, I am not too sure about Hibs though, they may see it as an opportunity to get our colts in the lower leagues too.

[jgl07]

If that proposal is allowed to go ahead I think it might finish me pff in Scottish Football.

I said the same when they were attempting to bring Rangers into the Championship rather than kick they out of the League. The supporters stood gainst this and effectively blackmailed their clubs into voting it down.

This is a similar situation. Why the hell should the OF get privileged rights over every other teams?

It is not just the fact that they are jumping the queue but that 'cap doffing' mentality that it will indicate.

If it does through I am out!

[Coach Jon]

I wonder how Hibs are going to vote on this? Totally against colt teams being near the league system myself, I am not too sure about Hibs though, they may see it as an opportunity to get our colts in the lower leagues too.

Weve been through this before when hibs decided to enter their U20 team in the East of Scotland league. it only highlighted the fact that the majority of our academy players are jersey fillers to make up the numbers so that the 2 or 3 players who have a chance of making it can have a team to play in.
What should be happening is a reserve league to give the aforementioned 2 or 3 elite players a regular game playing with seasoned pros.
Even Celtic or Rangers U21s would struggle in League 2.

[Logie Green]

I wonder how Hibs are going to vote on this? Totally against colt teams being near the league system myself, I am not too sure about Hibs though, they may see it as an opportunity to get our colts in the lower leagues too.

I hope Hibs vote against it too.

However, for what it’s worth, there was a fans forum at Easter Road hosted by Rod Petrie a few years ago and he was actively promoting the concept.

At the time the proposal allowed up to eight (I think) Colts teams into the league but they could only be promoted as far as the Championship.

The proposals had more holes in it than a colander but there was a fair few at the forum who thought it was a good idea. At the time we were near the bottom of the Premier League. He was asked how Hibs would market season ticket sales if we were relegated to a division containing eight Colts teams. One of several questions he was unable to give a satisfactory answer to.

To me it’s just two rancid clubs making sure they have a foot in both camps if their first teams get to play in a league outside Scotland.

[Paul1642]

“ The only change to the financial model would be teams in first and second place in the Premiership, who would forego £290,000 for the first five seasons”

I am against the plan on every level and the above needs reworded to Celtic and rangers. In the unlikely event that a non old firm team finish in the top two within the next 5 years why on earth should they receive a reduced amount to pay for old firm colts?

An irrelevant technicality most likely but none the less annoying.

[Since452]

Why does this continually come up? The only ones who want Celtic and Rangers B teams in the league are Celtic and Rangers.

[fiolex1]

Why should Rangers and Celtic have a competitive advantage in the Scottish Football business?

[Danderhall Hibs]

JC (and Levein - I know) spoke very well on the topic on sportsound last night if you want to hear the other side of the argument.

[jgl07]

Why should Rangers and Celtic have a competitive advantage in the Scottish Football business?

It would give them a definate advantage of being able to shift players in either direction at every window. It could be used to get players back to match fitness as well as bringing young players through. Other teams would have to use the the loan system with no guarantees that loneese would get the match time needed.

I know we had this before in the 1940s with the Scottish League Division C but that wasn't restricted to Rangers and Celtic.

I see no problem with B teams coming into the Lowland League, Highland League or below. Hibs did have a team in the East of Scotland League(?) at one stage.

I suspect that the supporters on the lower league teams within the SPFL will be seething.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Why should Rangers and Celtic have a competitive advantage in the Scottish Football business?

According to the radio last night it’s open to whoever wants it but certainly us, Aberdeen and Hearts.

If it gives us a competitive advantage it’s worth it?

[1875Sean]

According to the radio last night it’s open to whoever wants it but certainly us, Aberdeen and Hearts.

If it gives us a competitive advantage it’s worth it?

Sportspund made out its open to everyone but the proposal is to vote for the two old firm colt teams, if Hibs, Aberdeen or Hearts want to enter one later one down the mine another vote would be required and again making a larger league which I don’t see happening again

[jacomo]

Why should Rangers and Celtic have a competitive advantage in the Scottish Football business?


They’ve already got that through the loan system.

I would ban loans between clubs in the same division. I think that would make a bigger difference.

This is all about the bigger clubs getting to hoover up all the talent. Bringing in a draft system would be radical but worth exploring.

[bod]

JC (and Levein - I know) spoke very well on the topic on sportsound last night if you want to hear the other side of the argument.

I thought John Collins made some good points & it was a good discussion with Jim Mcinally who was kinda against it

[Iggy Pope]

Weve been through this before when hibs decided to enter their U20 team in the East of Scotland league. it only highlighted the fact that the majority of our academy players are jersey fillers to make up the numbers so that the 2 or 3 players who have a chance of making it can have a team to play in.
What should be happening is a reserve league to give the aforementioned 2 or 3 elite players a regular game playing with seasoned pros.
Even Celtic or Rangers U21s would struggle in League 2.

I could be wrong but I think Hibs seen that EoS season as a success? The drawback to it was a disastrous relegation and big cuts right across the board at the end of the season meant we couldn’t have put a side in if we wanted to.
Having a third team after a reserve side was something Hibs had a long time well before 2013/14.

[Billy Whizz]

I could be wrong but I think Hibs seen that EoS season as a success? The drawback to it was a disastrous relegation and big cuts right across the board at the end of the season meant we couldn’t have put a side in if we wanted to.
Having a third team after a reserve side was something Hibs had a long time well before 2013/14.

I’m sure it was Iggy

Big downside with letting Rangers and Celtic play B teams, it will give them a lead ahead of other teams, by offering this opportunity
Also means they will be have so many kids on their books, who will have no chance of making it with them

Must admit I can’t say I’m overly excited at our tie up with Stenhousemuir either. They are a great club for their community, but I’d be happier with Hibs looking closer to home than them

[BroxburnHibee]

I hope Hibs vote against it too.

However, for what it’s worth, there was a fans forum at Easter Road hosted by Rod Petrie a few years ago and he was actively promoting the concept.

At the time the proposal allowed up to eight (I think) Colts teams into the league but they could only be promoted as far as the Championship.

The proposals had more holes in it than a colander but there was a fair few at the forum who thought it was a good idea. At the time we were near the bottom of the Premier League. He was asked how Hibs would market season ticket sales if we were relegated to a division containing eight Colts teams. One of several questions he was unable to give a satisfactory answer to.

To me it’s just two rancid clubs making sure they have a foot in both camps if their first teams get to play in a league outside Scotland.

I was at that meeting and remember he was definitely for it because of the collapse of the reserve league if my memory is right.

[dalkeith stu]

They’ve already got that through the loan system.

I would ban loans between clubs in the same division. I think that would make a bigger difference.

This is all about the bigger clubs getting to hoover up all the talent. Bringing in a draft system would be radical but worth exploring.

Where would these players be drafted from??
Would the SFA/SPFL take on the expense of recruiting and developing these youngsters??

[matty_f]

Heard Brian McLaughlan on the news discussing it earlier, I’m not saying he was not balanced with his report but when asked “what reservations do the lower league teams have about it?” He replied to say they’d get bigger crowds and it was a win/win.

[neil7908]

We all know this is going to happen. It's an absolute joke of an idea that only benefits the Ugly Sisters in the long term, and further increases the divisions amongst them and the rest of Scottish football.

[Dmas]

surely the rangers could point us in the direction of all the young player leagues 2 & 1 helped them develop on there way up the leagues? maybe we could look at the Scotland squad announcement today and see what those 9 years of development can do....

absolutely nothing to do with the benefit of Scottish football and all to do with benefiting them as per usual

[Eyrie]

Hmmm, so the Ugly Sisters can use their financial muscle to sign up the best young players in Scotland and develop them in the lower leagues before either keeping them if they're good enough or head south in search of similar wages.

Meanwhile every other club in Scotland misses out on good young players.

What could possibly go wrong?

[fiolex1]

According to the radio last night it’s open to whoever wants it but certainly us, Aberdeen and Hearts.

If it gives us a competitive advantage it’s worth it?

I believe the figure is about £1.5 million, where are Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen going to find that kind of money?

[Onion]

Only thing you need ask is .... does Celtic and Sevco think it's a good idea ?

If so, it should be given the short shrift it deserves. Celtic and Sevco do not pretend to hide their disdain or contempt for Scotland or Scottish football. They see themselves as hostages and would ditch us all in a heart beat if they could suckle on the teat of the EPL or any other league that promised them a bit more dirty cash.

And SPL club voting for this has either been bought off, or beyond stupid.

[SerenityGreen]

I hope Hibs vote against it too.

However, for what it’s worth, there was a fans forum at Easter Road hosted by Rod Petrie a few years ago and he was actively promoting the concept.

At the time the proposal allowed up to eight (I think) Colts teams into the league but they could only be promoted as far as the Championship.

The proposals had more holes in it than a colander but there was a fair few at the forum who thought it was a good idea. At the time we were near the bottom of the Premier League. He was asked how Hibs would market season ticket sales if we were relegated to a division containing eight Colts teams. One of several questions he was unable to give a satisfactory answer to.

To me it’s just two rancid clubs making sure they have a foot in both camps if their first teams get to play in a league outside Scotland.

Last sentence, absolutely nail on head, Logie.

[Malthibby]

Only thing you need ask is .... does Celtic and Sevco think it's a good idea ?

If so, it should be given the short shrift it deserves. Celtic and Sevco do not pretend to hide their disdain or contempt for Scotland or Scottish football. They see themselves as hostages and would ditch us all in a heart beat if they could suckle on the teat of the EPL or any other league that promised them a bit more dirty cash.

And SPL club voting for this has either been bought off, or beyond stupid.


This is where I am with this, anyone who thinks these two clubs want to do this for the benefit of anyone but themselves is delusional.
They poison Scottish football from the top & now they want to do it from the bottom up as well; I really, really hope it doesn't get the votes.

[MyJo]

Not totally against the idea of B-teams playing in the lower leagues but it would need to come with a complete restructure of the league system, opportunity for all clubs to enter a B-team and heavy restrictions on who is allowed to play for these teams and when.

16 team premiership and 16 team championship as the top of the league system and then regionalised league pyramid below this with B-teams only able to go as high as the third tier.

B-teams would need to have thier own set up independent of the main club (although obviously sharing resources like training facilities etc) and operating to a strict wage budget that is comparable to other clubs operating at the same level they are playing at. Players would need to be contracted to the B-team rather than the main club (although some could be loaned in the same way the current rules allow between clubs) and could only move between the two during transfer windows.

I would also put the emphasis on youth development so the squads would have to be primarily scottish & under-23 with only 5 or 6 places for over-age/foreign players.

[Onion]

Not totally against the idea of B-teams playing in the lower leagues but it would need to come with a complete restructure of the league system, opportunity for all clubs to enter a B-team and heavy restrictions on who is allowed to play for these teams and when.

16 team premiership and 16 team championship as the top of the league system and then regionalised league pyramid below this with B-teams only able to go as high as the third tier.

B-teams would need to have thier own set up independent of the main club (although obviously sharing resources like training facilities etc) and operating to a strict wage budget that is comparable to other clubs operating at the same level they are playing at. Players would need to be contracted to the B-team rather than the main club (although some could be loaned in the same way the current rules allow between clubs) and could only move between the two during transfer windows.

I would also put the emphasis on youth development so the squads would have to be primarily scottish & under-23 with only 5 or 6 places for over-age/foreign players.

Sevco and Celtic run football and the media in Scotland. As soon as you open that door, they will kick it in, to meet their own ends. If this was an initiative led by 10-12 clubs, with clearly stated benefits for all, then it may be worth pursuing, but the OF (and their media supporters) cannot and should not be trusted. They are predators.

[majorhibs]

Absolute no to any more pandering & trying to make the 2 most destructive self serving bad influences on the Scottish league more powerful & able to continue to force every other opposition club they face on a downward spiral because they steal their best players they don’t even need to their other sides & destabilise any possible contenders.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Ian McCall made some good points on sportsound last night about it. There’s far too much stuff involved in the debate. And for me as soon as Rangers and Celtic are involved the debate becomes toxic and polarised.

[easty]

Why would any Prem teams outwith Rangers or Celtc vote for this?

[.Sean.]

Why won’t they re-introduce the reserve league?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Why won’t they re-introduce the reserve league?

I think not enough clubs can afford to run the squad size required and it’s not competitive enough.

[chippy]

Not totally against the idea of B-teams playing in the lower leagues but it would need to come with a complete restructure of the league system, opportunity for all clubs to enter a B-team and heavy restrictions on who is allowed to play for these teams and when.

16 team premiership and 16 team championship as the top of the league system and then regionalised league pyramid below this with B-teams only able to go as high as the third tier.

B-teams would need to have thier own set up independent of the main club (although obviously sharing resources like training facilities etc) and operating to a strict wage budget that is comparable to other clubs operating at the same level they are playing at. Players would need to be contracted to the B-team rather than the main club (although some could be loaned in the same way the current rules allow between clubs) and could only move between the two during transfer windows.

I would also put the emphasis on youth development so the squads would have to be primarily scottish & under-23 with only 5 or 6 places for over-age/foreign players.

I largely agree with this, you make a lot of good points. If the current proposals go ahead, then I think Hibs have to seriously consider entering a B team. It would encourage more talented youngsters to sign on and we’d be able to assess their 1st team potential rather more quickly as to what level they end up at. I think it could be self financing as this will be a new market place for young players. Old firm will make loads selling on their youngsters who aren’t going to get into their A/B squads. The 16 year olds we are already about to likely sell would have an immediate platform. Sure you will have to sell one or two gems early on, helping fund the team, but getting youngsters almost 1st team ready would save us plenty in the transfer market. I’d rather this than give Stenhousemuir 5 players say. We’re paying the players anyway if they are on professional terms, so there isn’t a huge infrastructure required. Of course we have to look at the payment required to the spfl and that seems to be a cut of the league placings money. We do have to be realistic though. For Rangers and Celtic this is effectively their C team. As they have an A and B mix for Europe/ Domestic fixtures already with their huge squads . For us it would be a B until we get back to regular European football. I agree about League expansion and keeping B teams no higher than 3rd tier. But I’d still have 3rd tier National , potentially 14/14/20 or 16/16/16. Tier 3 could have more depending on number of B teams but I’d expect no more than 4 or 5.

[happiehibbie]

its all about the lower league teams receiving 3 million over 3 years. The SFA have no interest in the pyramid system. The teams in the lower league do not want to be relegated to the Lowland league look at East Stirlingshire and Berwick Rangers. The only reason a Pyramid system was brought it was down to Uefa or again the SFA would lose out on money. The Ugly sisters are only interested in themselves. They want to develop players at other teams expense.

[jacomo]

This is where I am with this, anyone who thinks these two clubs want to do this for the benefit of anyone but themselves is delusional.
They poison Scottish football from the top & now they want to do it from the bottom up as well; I really, really hope it doesn't get the votes.


Also another good example of how Rantic operate as a very effective partnership. They wind their fans up to hate the other side, while working hand in hand with each other.

[PatHead]

One thing that you can guarantee is that they are not doing it for the benefit of Scottish football. It's all about them.

[Juniper Greens]

I think they should have to apply to the WOS leagues and work their way up. Should also be a defined squad at the end of each transfer window, to stop the parachuting in a couple of first team players in a crunch promotion match

[G15 Hibs]

Heard Brian McLaughlan on the news discussing it earlier, I’m not saying he was not balanced with his report but when asked “what reservations do the lower league teams have about it?” He replied to say they’d get bigger crowds and it was a win/win.

Who, who isn't already going to football games, is going to go to see Stenhousemuir v Rangers/Celtic youngsters, other than their mums and dads? One of the reasons folk go to lower league football is to get away from these two teams and that this would attract anyone along to games, other than for an initial novelty value, is unlikely. You just need to look at the crowds for colt team games in the Challenge Cup in recent years to see they're not much of a draw.

[Since452]

Who, who isn't already going to football games, is going to go to see Stenhousemuir v Rangers/Celtic youngsters, other than their mums and dads? One of the reasons folk go to lower league football is to get away from these two teams and that this would attract anyone along to games, other than for an initial novelty value, is unlikely. You just need to look at the crowds for colt team games in the Challenge Cup in recent years to see they're not much of a draw.

Exactly. I know a few fans of lower league teams that prefer being away from the sectarian bile those two bring.

[Since452]

The cynic in me thinks that this is just a way for them to push for a move to England even harder. "Aye but we're going to leave our B teams in Scotland so it's just the same". They are desperate to do anything that gives them more leverage towards that. They couldn't give a **** about Scottish football, especially the "minnows".

[Phil MaGlass]

The cynic in me thinks that this is just a way for them to push for a move to England even harder. "Aye but we're going to leave our B teams in Scotland so it's just the same". They are desperate to do anything that gives them more leverage towards that. They couldn't give a **** about Scottish football, especially the "minnows".

If this was to happen then any colt teams they have should also be jettisoned.

[Lancs Harp]

The cynic in me thinks that this is just a way for them to push for a move to England even harder. "Aye but we're going to leave our B teams in Scotland so it's just the same". They are desperate to do anything that gives them more leverage towards that. They couldn't give a **** about Scottish football, especially the "minnows".

Celtic and Rangers moving to England has been talked about for decades. Hasn't happened and never will. England doesnt want or need Celtic and Rangers. On top of that I would imagine UEFA would take a pretty dim view of clubs from one football association picking and choosing which football league they want to play in. If Celtic and Rangers move to England I reckon we should apply to play in Portugal, nice climate, friendly people, good food. Hearts could apply to play in San Marino where they might win something :greengrin

[Eyrie]

A reserve league would be a far better idea for a club like Hibs. It would give game time to fringe players and those coming back from injury as well as help develop the youngsters who would have support from the experienced pros. There are enough clubs in Scottish football who could put out a team like that every week to have a reasonable sized league eg 16 teams playing home and away. It would be as competitive as the Premiership ie the Ugly Sisters would outspend everyone else and then whine about a lack of competition, but we'd have decent match ups against most of the clubs.

A colts team would be a non-starter for us. Looking at how few youths we've brought through, it's clear that in any colts squad Hibs might have 2-3 prospects and 12-15 jersey fillers who will never make it as full time professionals, yet would still need to be employed full time.

The link with Stenhousemuir is a good option for us since there is no reserve league. We can advise them a year or so in advance which players we'd like to lend them, and they can then build their own squad with that in mind. It gives our youths experience of playing competitive football and it helps Stenhousemuir who could have 3-4 players in their squad that cost them nothing because they're still on Hibs books.

[007]

This is only for the benefit of 2 clubs. If they try to dress it up any other way then it is just total BS.

[jgl07]

If this goes through it will be a sign what the SPFL has gone beyond redemption. And with it so has Scottish Football.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

If this goes through it will be a sign what the SPFL has gone beyond redemption. And with it so has Scottish Football.

I agree.

It’s Interesting timing - Like many things that will happen as a result of the “opportunity” COVID presents i imagine the money on offer could be the clincher?

Or is this a softening up move by the uglies or SFA for something else?

[Dmas]

A reserve league would be a far better idea for a club like Hibs. It would give game time to fringe players and those coming back from injury as well as help develop the youngsters who would have support from the experienced pros. There are enough clubs in Scottish football who could put out a team like that every week to have a reasonable sized league eg 16 teams playing home and away. It would be as competitive as the Premiership ie the Ugly Sisters would outspend everyone else and then whine about a lack of competition, but we'd have decent match ups against most of the clubs.

A colts team would be a non-starter for us. Looking at how few youths we've brought through, it's clear that in any colts squad Hibs might have 2-3 prospects and 12-15 jersey fillers who will never make it as full time professionals, yet would still need to be employed full time.

The link with Stenhousemuir is a good option for us since there is no reserve league. We can advise them a year or so in advance which players we'd like to lend them, and they can then build their own squad with that in mind. It gives our youths experience of playing competitive football and it helps Stenhousemuir who could have 3-4 players in their squad that cost them nothing because they're still on Hibs books.

Not sure a reserve league works either, how many teams outwith the uglies are carrying squads big enough as to have another team of ‘old pros’ that young guys could mix in with?

Hibs for example a usual bench of, masey, gray, mcgregor Stevenson allan hallberg and magennis outwith those guys there’s nothing other than the development squad players, the reserve team would in theory be a development side with maybe an extra over age player than normal, I’d expect teams with smaller budgets than ours would have even less.

This colt team buisness will hurt the rest of Scottish football more than expected I think, Celtic and Rangers will hold on to players longer than is usual for them as to create a bigger squad for competitive league games so the days of teams in the league maybe benefiting from a misjudgment or a young player moving for opportunities will be gone, brown, weatherspoon hickey at that, lot dropped out there system probably many more I’m unaware of, be better placed people than me on the youth game, but they’ll have extra time to monitor the development now and will be after fee’s for more and more players

[Alfred E Newman]

If this goes through it will be a sign what the SPFL has gone beyond redemption. And with it so has Scottish Football.

If anything shows exactly what is wrong with Scottish football this is it.

[GreenCastle]

It would be a farce.

Having the situation where they can’t get promoted would make a mockery of the leagues.

You could have Old firm colts 1st and 2nd so the 3rd place team would end up being promoted ? A regular bottle neck every season.

The pyramid needs to be open for aspiring teams to move up the leagues - it’s created more interest lower down the leagues and given many of these teams in lower leagues a kick up the back side for being so stale for so long.

As others have said this would upset more people than it would help and Scottish football needs to bring others along not create a bigger divide.

[Danderhall Hibs]

It would be a farce.

Having the situation where they can’t get promoted would make a mockery of the leagues.

You could have Old firm colts 1st and 2nd so the 3rd place team would end up being promoted ? A regular bottle neck every season.

The pyramid needs to be open for aspiring teams to move up the leagues - it’s created more interest lower down the leagues and given many of these teams in lower leagues a kick up the back side for being so stale for so long.

As others have said this would upset more people than it would help and Scottish football needs to bring others along not create a bigger divide.

I didn’t realise they can’t get promoted - it would make more sense to let them until they get to the championship?

[where'stheslope]

You just have to look at the amount of players they are loaning to lower league clubs, if they keep the players for their own lower league teams, it will surely weaken the clubs in their divisions???

[GreenCastle]

I didn’t realise they can’t get promoted - it would make more sense to let them until they get to the championship?

Still doesn’t solve the issue.

A regular bottle neck and more money for the Old Firm long term. Teams may be tempted by the quick ££ but it’s completely ridiculous teams can bribe their way into the leagues. They would be better off linking and helping others rather than being more competition for fans and players.

[heretoday]

It's a bad idea. It's like the rest of us admitting that we can't compete with the Glasgow giants after all.

[Peevemor]

That they couldn't get promoted wouldn't be problematic. I'm involved in something with a similar set up where there are effectively 5 leagues, but there has to be at least 2 league's difference between the main team and the colts, eg. 1st & 3rd tiers.

Even if the colts are running away with their league, the others remain competetive and are promoted instead.

However, I'm 100% against only the OF having the opportunity of introducing B/colt teams.

[easty]

You just have to look at the amount of players they are loaning to lower league clubs, if they keep the players for their own lower league teams, it will surely weaken the clubs in their divisions???

Do they have a lot of players out on loan to other Scottish clubs?

[GreenCastle]

That they couldn't get promoted wouldn't be problematic. I'm involved in something with a similar set up where there are effectively 5 leagues, but there has to be at least 2 league's difference between the main team and the colts, eg. 1st & 3rd tiers.

Even if the colts are running away with their league, the others remain competetive and are promoted instead.

However, I'm 100% against only the OF having the opportunity of introducing B/colt teams.

I’ve seen leagues where teams can’t get promoted and they decided to do everything they could to try restructure leagues as it was making a mockery of the leagues and pyramid.

[Peevemor]

I’ve seen leagues where teams can’t get promoted and they decided to do everything they could to try restructure leagues as it was making a mockery of the leagues and pyramid.

In what way?

[blackpoolhibs]

In what way?

I'd hazard a guess that the bigots would occupy the top 2 positions in whatever league they are in. Those promoted would be 3rd and not have the medals and honour of winning that league.

Add in the fact it's only 2 clubs being afforded this opportunity, and i'd say it is making a mockery of the league pyramid system.

Only 2 teams can win the SPL or whatever its called these days, bring this in and i believe those clubs would be winning between them half of the championships available to every club, until they bring out C teams.

[Peevemor]

I'd hazard a guess that the bigots would occupy the top 2 positions in whatever league they are in. Those promoted would be 3rd and not have the medals and honour of winning that league.


Offset by the extra interest and money that they would bring into the league - Cove Rangers would be delighted to have 4 OF visits per season, even from their B teams.


Add in the fact it's only 2 clubs being afforded this opportunity, and i'd say it is making a mockery of the league pyramid system.

Agree.

[blackpoolhibs]

Offset by the extra interest and money that they would bring into the league - Cove Rangers would be delighted to have 4 OF visits per season, even from their B teams.



Agree.
The extra money in my opinion is irrelevant, where does it stop, C D E teams? The biggest games should be in the top league, and thats what clubs should aspire to.

We cant have clubs happy to just get 4 visits a season from the bigots B teams to survive.

[Peevemor]

The extra money in my opinion is irrelevant, where does it stop, C D E teams? The biggest games should be in the top league, and thats what clubs should aspire to.

We cant have clubs happy to just get 4 visits a season from the bigots B teams to survive.

I agree, the only point I was making is that blocking colt teams from being promoted above a certain level doesn't necessarily screw up the leagues. Opening it up to OF colts only is 100% wrong. Opening it up to everyone is a different story and would obviously be mega complicated.

[Jones28]

Why was the reserve league done away with? Was it too much for teams with smaller squads or was it simply deemed unfit for purpose?

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

I'd hazard a guess that the bigots would occupy the top 2 positions in whatever league they are in. Those promoted would be 3rd and not have the medals and honour of winning that league.

Add in the fact it's only 2 clubs being afforded this opportunity, and i'd say it is making a mockery of the league pyramid system.

Only 2 teams can win the SPL or whatever its called these days, bring this in and i believe those clubs would be winning between them half of the championships available to every club, until they bring out C teams.


The league they were in would be easier to get out of for the other teams as well. Assuming the same number of teams in each league - 10? - the team 'winning' the league the B Bigots were in would only have to be better than 7 other teams, whereas the winners (actual winners!) of other leagues would have nine other teams to get the better of.

And the last thing we need is more 'professional/senior' teams playing even more meaningless games. From the point of view of competitiveness, all of the games involving the B Bigots would be the very definition of meaningless.

[GreenCastle]

I'd hazard a guess that the bigots would occupy the top 2 positions in whatever league they are in. Those promoted would be 3rd and not have the medals and honour of winning that league.

Add in the fact it's only 2 clubs being afforded this opportunity, and i'd say it is making a mockery of the league pyramid system.

Only 2 teams can win the SPL or whatever its called these days, bring this in and i believe those clubs would be winning between them half of the championships available to every club, until they bring out C teams.

Yup exactly this.

Regarding offset by the money ? Short term gain for long term mess. It’s like top league clubs in Scotland relying on Old Firm away ticket sales - that’s not a sustainable solution for developing the Scottish game.

The Old firm have a big enough monopoly on Scottish football and giving them even more power / presence will lose fans from other teams and annoy more people lower down the leagues who all work hard to operate with less resources.

Scottish football needs restructured but this not the way forward. I know other countries do it but the Old Firm dominance here is an issue.

[04Sauzee]

Elgin tweeted this

COLT TEAMS

It’s very disappointing that the first we hear of the proposed changes is through the press.

We have yet to receive an official proposal from the SPFL.

When we do we will liaise with all of you our loyal supporters before making any decision 🖤🖤⚽️ https://t.co/Kc0yBBqHzi

[wookie70]

I thought John Collins made some good points & it was a good discussion with Jim Mcinally who was kinda against it

It was a good discussion but I think they are missing the point that far more, imo, Scottish football fans put club above country. The big point for me was players playing at the appropriate level for their development and getting enough game time. That is an issue particularly for the Old Firm as they hoover up too much talent.

I don't buy the argument made by JC that the players needed to play in certain systems etc and against men. They also need to play alongside men and that won't be the case as they will all be under 21.

The other point is that our best players like Andy Robertson and SJM don't need the Old Firm to develop and have shown you can get to the top by working your way through the leagues and teams improving every year. We have more players playing in the English Top League than we have had for a while so why change things. They are starting to work so let that continue with a tweak here or there.

I have no issue if they want to start a new club and come from the bottom of the pyramid but would far rather teams had strategic partnerships as that would benefit the clubs lower down the pyramid.

IMO the proposal is only to do with the betterment of the Uglies and has nothing at all to do with Scottish Football. You know it is wrong as the bribes are already being offered and the timing is really sickening when smaller clubs are strapped and may be seduced by short term finances at the expense of facilitating even more Uglies domination.

[where'stheslope]

Do they have a lot of players out on loan to other Scottish clubs?
Rangers have 3 young players at Arbroath to start with.

[Andy74]

If this goes through it will be a sign what the SPFL has gone beyond redemption. And with it so has Scottish Football.

This model is already used in some successful football nations such as Spain. I don’t pay close attention to how it works but haven’t seen it mentioned on this thread yet.

We surely have to look at examples of where it is already in place and get a sense of what works or doesn’t work.

[Oscar T Grouch]

This model is already used in some successful football nations such as Spain. I don’t pay close attention to how it works but haven’t seen it mentioned on this thread yet.

We surely have to look at examples of where it is already in place and get a sense of what works or doesn’t work.

It has been mentioned on this thread that the countries that do have colt teams in their lower leagues are from the 'larger' nations, I think Croatia was mentioned as the only small nation that has 3 colt teams in it. The B teams in Spain are also restricted and I think need to be 2 leagues apart? To shoehorn the two largest teams colts into the lower league when we operate a pyramid system is a slap in the face to small clubs trying their best to climb the ladder of the pyramid system.

[Billy Whizz]

Would the B teams be allowed in the League/Scottish Cup?

[PatHead]

Would the B teams be allowed in the League/Scottish Cup?

I was just wondering that. What if Sevco drew The Sevco In the cup?

[Peevemor]

I was just wondering that. What if Sevco drew The Sevco In the cup?

It shouldn't be a problem as any colt team would be a team in it's own right, with it's players subject to normal transfer/loan rules - even within the same club.

Obviously a team drawing it's B team in the cup is effectively getting a bye, but that's the luck of the draw.

If Hibs tie-in with Alloa(?) Kicks in they could have loads of our players on loan - probably just as bad.

[matty_f]

One of the issues I have with it is that Celtic and Rangers have such a huge fanbase that this could, over time at least, give them the equivalent of an extra home game every week (assuming that the colt team plays at home when the senior side is away from home.

I don't think they'd use Ibrox and Parkhead for it (don't think they'd want a game every week on the pitch) but to play lower league I am sure there are requirements for stadiums/facilities to host games.

Rangers and Celtic would have no problem selling out wee grounds on weekends when the senior team are away from home, IMHO - so while the lower league clubs would definitely benefit from a couple of games a season with inflated crowds, Rangers and Celtic's financial advantage just widens.

Of course, maybe Hibs can get on board with that and with clever marketing and a bit of a push get some colt season tickets out to folk and lift our revenue as well, but I don't think we'd see anything like the crowds that Rangers and Celtic would draw.

[ancient hibee]

Elgin tweeted this

COLT TEAMS

It’s very disappointing that the first we hear of the proposed changes is through the press.

We have yet to receive an official proposal from the SPFL.

When we do we will liaise with all of you our loyal supporters before making any decision 🖤🖤⚽️ https://t.co/Kc0yBBqHzi

And there it is in a nutshell who is most important and most likely to benefit. Clue-it’s not any of the clubs in these divisions at the moment.

[nonshinyfinish]

This model is already used in some successful football nations such as Spain. I don’t pay close attention to how it works but haven’t seen it mentioned on this thread yet.

We surely have to look at examples of where it is already in place and get a sense of what works or doesn’t work.

There are two separate angles:

- B teams in lower or regional divisions generally, as you have in Spain, Germany etc. I don't know anything about what fans of 'real' clubs in the lower divisions think about playing B teams, but as you say these are successful leagues so superficially it seems to work

- Only the OF having B teams in the league

I assume most objection is to the second option, although obviously some will be opposed to the entire concept even if not limited to the OF.

[jgl07]

I seriously doubt that any B teams will attract much support.

In Spain, Madrid’s B team struggle to get more than a thousand while Barca do little better.

The whole setup in Scotland is already a charade for two teams to dominate. This proposal will put the final nail in the coffin of the Scottish game.

It can be stopped by concerted action from lower league supporters as well as by the same groups that torpedoed the plan to put Sevco into the Championship rather than at the bottom of the then Pyramid.

[SJNB Hibby]

Offset by the extra interest and money that they would bring into the league - Cove Rangers would be delighted to have 4 OF visits per season, even from their B teams.


Agree.

had a quick look back at just one season, 2017-18:
Dumbarton v Rangers Colts drew 389(Dumbartons average League gate=832)
Annan vs Celtic Colts drew 278(Annans average League Gate=347)

[SJNB Hibby]

One of the issues I have with it is that Celtic and Rangers have such a huge fanbase that this could, over time at least, give them the equivalent of an extra home game every week (assuming that the colt team plays at home when the senior side is away from home.

I don't think they'd use Ibrox and Parkhead for it (don't think they'd want a game every week on the pitch) but to play lower league I am sure there are requirements for stadiums/facilities to host games.

Rangers and Celtic would have no problem selling out wee grounds on weekends when the senior team are away from home, IMHO - so while the lower league clubs would definitely benefit from a couple of games a season with inflated crowds, Rangers and Celtic's financial advantage just widens.

Of course, maybe Hibs can get on board with that and with clever marketing and a bit of a push get some colt season tickets out to folk and lift our revenue as well, but I don't think we'd see anything like the crowds that Rangers and Celtic would draw.

Make the Colts teams play all their games away:dunno:

[Baader]

Will benefit Celtic and Rangers. No one else.

[GreenCastle]

It wasn’t even that long ago they had to play the Scottish youth cup final between the old firm behind closed doors at hampden.

Bigot colts playing each other would also be more hassle for local police and already stretched resources.

[jgl07]

After the Second World War the Scottish League failed to revert to the pre-war setup of two divisions of 20 and 18 clubs. It appeared that the big clubs wanted to retain their wartime structure of two divisions of 16 and 14 teams. There was a threat to wihdraw and form a rival league so they got their way and the divisions were now renamed as Division A and Division B.

To accommodate the excluded clubs, the third tier was created and three reserve sides (Dundee, Dundee United, and St Johnstone) were brought in to make the new Division C up to 10 clubs.

Division C was eventially merged with the Scottish Reserve League in 1949 and split into North-East and South-West Divisions. This continued to 1955, when the Scottish Reserve League was recreated and the big teams withdrew their B-teams. The Division B was expanded then to 19 to accommodate the five remaining Division C teams.

So the idea of B-teams playing at the lower levels was tried before and was abandoned. At least it was open to all teams.

[A Hi-Bee]

No thanks only 2 teams gonna benifit and they already own the never ending cartel
**** them we dont want or need any b teams
:greengrin

[uwxm07]

Why not a special division of ten clubs .Five from Dark head and five from Greyskull and then they can play each other every week . No promotion and no relegation just a giant bigot fest with derbies every week . Sky could set up a special “Bigot Chanel” package showing all games across five channels each week . Interviews with former players and supporters, hosted by celebrity supporters .
The rest of us can do the interesting stuff!

[Iggy Pope]

These are the sides that had to play a Youth Cup final behind closed doors, if I recall right, before closed door games became fashionable.
Edit.Shut up Iggy, Green Castle guy has got there.

[SJNB Hibby]

Would the B teams be allowed in the League/Scottish Cup?

No, only allowed in the challenge cup, but they're in that already

[Hibs4185]

It’s a brilliant idea and will help produce better players......for the old firm.

It should be open to any team who want to. Why should old firm players get the opportunity but not hibs players?

[GreenCastle]

It’s a brilliant idea and will help produce better players......for the old firm.

It should be open to any team who want to. Why should old firm players get the opportunity but not hibs players?

I wouldn’t even want Hibs to enter a B team in lower leagues. Would rather community based clubs etc move up the leagues.

I know it may help Hibs but I would prefer seeing other Scottish clubs improve and the game improve.

They should just set up a reserve league and allow over age players to play in it. Just copy Premiership fixtures.

Trying to remember the old reserve league - not development league - did they not do something similar ? I’m sure I went to ER to watch some games when the 1st team was away from home when younger.

[Eyrie]

It’s a brilliant idea and will help produce better players......for the old firm.

It should be open to any team who want to. Why should old firm players get the opportunity but not hibs players?

Other than the Ugly Sisters who could actually afford to run two full squads?

[houstonhibbee]

No, only allowed in the challenge cup, but they're in that already
can they get promoted?

[chippy]

Other than the Ugly Sisters who could actually afford to run two full squads?

Old firm already effectively run two full squads for Donestic/ European games. This would be their development squad . We also have a development squad so I don’t see the problem for Hibs doing the same and entering leagues 1/2. Will mean am increase in some costs but also opportunities for enhanced player development and a new market to buy/sell players
Deemed good/ not good enough.

[Eyrie]

Old firm already effectively run two full squads for Donestic/ European games. This would be their development squad . We also have a development squad so I don’t see the problem for Hibs doing the same and entering leagues 1/2. Will mean am increase in some costs but also opportunities for enhanced player development and a new market to buy/sell players
Deemed good/ not good enough.

Sounds tempting, until you look at our development squad for the last few years and see just how few players have made it at any level, let alone being good enough to play for Hibs, so most of the wages will be effectively wasted.

Our development players with reasonable potential are better off getting regular game time on loan to a Division One/Two team where they've got support from experienced players rather than all being kids just learning. Those will be competitive games, because the club they are on loan to will be battling for promotion or to avoid relegation, whereas a Colts team will be stuck in limbo since it can't be promoted.

As regards the Ugly Sisters, running two squads just now means they don't need a third development squad because their best youngsters can still get game time due to the numerous games that they face. Letting them have a development squad in the lower leagues will only enable them to monopolise the best young prospects by offering more money than even we can, and given the high failure rate in youth football I couldn't blame a 16 year old for signing for either Ugly Sister when they'd get 2-3 times the money.

My preference would be a reserve league. For Hibs, that would mean a first team squad of 20-22 players, supplemented by 8-10 youth prospects. The reserves would play a 22 game season (each Premiership side home and away) with a mixture of youths (Dabrowski, Gullan), players returning from injury (Allan, Magennis) and fringe players (Gray, Wright). Most of the games would be scheduled for early in the season, which provides flexibility for postponements if a club has a number of players unvailable. In the absence of a reserve league, the current set up with those 8-10 prospects being on loan works fine and is both more affordable than running a second squad of 18-20 youths and offers more chance of a return on the investment in youth.

[Green Reaper]

Other than the Ugly Sisters who could actually afford to run two full squads?

With the payments a club has to pay to have a colt team in the leagues only the bigots could afford it.
They have set this up as ‘any premier team can join in’ but have restricted it to the bigots by snide pricing..snakes😡

[Keith_M]

Gordon Smith is backing the proposal.


So that's a definite NO from me.

[The dalmeny]

Hearing today that the cheeks are pretty committed to this The Rangers have over 35 kids in their U18 squad and will have to release a pile of players if the b team stuff doesn’t go ahead

[1875Sean]

If the proposal gets rejected, which I think it will can’t they just put the teams in the lowland league and work there way up from there?

[A Hi-Bee]

A mind as a youngster going to a lot of reserve team games and watching future and present players making their way back from injury, some good crowds at the games as well, cost nothing to get in from memory as well.
Bring back the reserve teams and **** the bb suggestion, that would only benifit the bigot brothers, so once more I have to say **** them

:cb

[SJNB Hibby]

can they get promoted?

Yes to division 1
Would be a wierd division if the 2 of them took spots in the top 4
Playoffs would include the team in 6th place...3 places above the team involved in relegation playoffs