Plain clothed police could patrol bars !!!

[Crunchie]

The latest knee jerk reaction to the tragic murder of Sarah Everard , this should be interesting.

[Jones28]

The latest knee jerk reaction to the tragic murder of Sarah Everard , this should be interesting.

Really?

[Berwickhibby]

Another idea that will fall by the wayside .... there is not enough resources now to cover normal response duty, never mind plain clothes pub roving patrols....

[Ozyhibby]

Undercover cops, what could possibly go wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/28/secrets-and-lies-untangling-the-uk-spy-cops-scandal

Wasn’t the girl killed by a policeman in plain clothes?


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[ballengeich]

Another idea that will fall by the wayside .... there is not enough resources now to cover normal response duty, never mind plain clothes pub roving patrols....
I suspect that a lot of initiatives and new legislation is designed to make politicians and other leaders of public bodies look like they're doing something when what is really needed is proper enforcement of laws that are already in force. I see the Scottish government's Hate Crimes bill as a case in point. As you have posted, enforcement needs adequate resources which in turn needs a proper discussion on raising the funds to provide these resources.

[lapsedhibee]

Another idea that will fall by the wayside .... there is not enough resources now to cover normal response duty

Yes, but when Johnson's eleventy thousand new recruits arrive? :hmmm:

[Berwickhibby]

Undercover cops, what could possibly go wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/28/secrets-and-lies-untangling-the-uk-spy-cops-scandal

Wasn’t the girl killed by a policeman in plain clothes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Murdered by an off duty officer....

[Andy74]

I think we are too readily making the link here between your over confident mate who might try it on a step too far at the club to the rape and murder of women.

I don't think it is the same type of behaviours or same type of people at all who would be involved.

As for pubs and clubs, I think a lot of the coverage over the last few days has portrayed women as weak and getting taken advantage of or at least habitually harassed everywhere they go. This doesn't really reflect my 30 odd years of going out.

I certainly didn't have the baws to approach or talk to anyone and my experiences even in larger groups is that the girls held all the power there. They decided who they would interact with and at the end of the night who might be lucky or not. You'd obviously see your over confident types who would try it on more than others but generally one of two things happened there - he would swiftly be told to get lost by the girls or more amazingly it would work. That's just the experiences of me and my mates and I know my wife's group of friends loved their time as student nurses and from their stores they were certainly in charge too.

I don't think officers in clubs will do anything to tackle the characters that rape and murder.

[Moulin Yarns]

Another idea that will fall by the wayside .... there is not enough resources now to cover normal response duty, never mind plain clothes pub roving patrols....

You can always volunteer or rejoin 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Murdered by an off duty officer....

There's a theme emerging. 🤔🙄

[Berwickhibby]

You can always volunteer or rejoin ��

Volunteer as not get paid, No chance, thankfully to old to rejoin

[Smartie]

I think we are too readily making the link here between your over confident mate who might try it on a step too far at the club to the rape and murder of women.

I don't think it is the same type of behaviours or same type of people at all who would be involved.

As for pubs and clubs, I think a lot of the coverage over the last few days has portrayed women as weak and getting taken advantage of or at least habitually harassed everywhere they go. This doesn't really reflect my 30 odd years of going out.

I certainly didn't have the baws to approach or talk to anyone and my experiences even in larger groups is that the girls held all the power there. They decided who they would interact with and at the end of the night who might be lucky or not. You'd obviously see your over confident types who would try it on more than others but generally one of two things happened there - he would swiftly be told to get lost by the girls or more amazingly it would work. That's just the experiences of me and my mates and I know my wife's group of friends loved their time as student nurses and from their stores they were certainly in charge too.

I don't think officers in clubs will do anything to tackle the characters that rape and murder.

Just your experience though, and others will have different experiences.

My experience would suggest to me that things are better and people are safer than 25 years ago. That’s probably down to the fact that I’m a settled-down, sensible, middle aged man whose life is all about being a role model to a young daughter. 25 years ago I was trawling night clubs and being exposed to all sorts so it would make sense I’d think that way.

I do think you’ve been making some decent and uncomfortable points though, and I’d be very wary of wanting to remove the liberty and freedom of women to make their own decisions and take their own risks by overplaying dangers which exist and will probably always exist.

[wookie70]

Another ridiculous idea from Tory Party Central Office. Apart from the jerk of the knee coming from an event where an officer wearing plain clothes, albeit out of duty, it is just a stupid idea. If you can have a plain clothes officer then why not a uniformed one. That at least would make it feel safer but much of the talk I am hearing from women is not about murder and rape but men simply treating them as objects. Perhaps the clubs and bars who allow drink sales to lads and lasses that are already steaming need to do something to try and moderate behaviour. This is a huge subject with many levels from serious crime to disrespect and law and order and upbringing. Needless to say a PM with a record of disrespecting pretty much everyone and who has made quite a few laddish comments is just as usual going for a lazy and poorly thought through idea. Not that he will get much help from the woman in charge of law and order as she is possibly the worst Home Secretary the UK has ever seen and is of course a bully herself.

[CropleyWasGod]

To be fair to Parliament, the relevant committee came out against this in November.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chis-bill-undercover-police-murder-rape-torture-law-human-rights-b1719872.html?__twitter_impression=true

[Keith_M]

I can't see this as a long term plan, as they're already short of resources. I presume it's the Governments way of being seen to be doing something useful.

I'm also struggling to see what the plain clothes police will provide in the way of safety anyway.

[Hibbyradge]

Another ridiculous idea from Tory Party Central Office. Apart from the jerk of the knee coming from an event where an officer wearing plain clothes, albeit out of duty, it is just a stupid idea. If you can have a plain clothes officer then why not a uniformed one. That at least would make it feel safer but much of the talk I am hearing from women is not about murder and rape but men simply treating them as objects. Perhaps the clubs and bars who allow drink sales to lads and lasses that are already steaming need to do something to try and moderate behaviour. This is a huge subject with many levels from serious crime to disrespect and law and order and upbringing. Needless to say a PM with a record of disrespecting pretty much everyone and who has made quite a few laddish comments is just as usual going for a lazy and poorly thought through idea. Not that he will get much help from the woman in charge of law and order as she is possibly the worst Home Secretary the UK has ever seen and is of course a bully herself.

I don't think it's a knee jerk reaction, it's a suggestion and, at first glance, one I'd support.

Rapists who ply womens' drinks with Rolys etc won't do it if uniformed police were there. That's great!

Except there isn't enough police to have them in every club all night. If there wasn't a fluorescent jacket in sight, the cowardly beasts will be able to operate as they normally do.

The fact that there's the possibility of a plain clothes police officer being in the club, would mean that they might not take the risk.

It's not going to stop men brutalising, raping and murdering women in itself, but it would be a positive step.

Great gig for the polis officers, btw!

Edit: I agree with your sentiments generally though.

[G B Young]

The latest knee jerk reaction to the tragic murder of Sarah Everard , this should be interesting.

I'm unclear how this would have much impact on deterring those who attack women who are not in pubs but walking alone outside.

It's been mentioned on another thread but this case bears similarities to the Moira Jones case in Glasgow. Moira's mum makes some very good points about how the human tragedy of Sarah Everard's death and those most directly related to it (her loved ones) are being lost amid the general hysteria.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56414694

[wookie70]

I don't think it's a knee jerk reaction, it's a suggestion and, at first glance, one I'd support.

Rapists who ply womens' drinks with Rolys etc won't do it if uniformed police were there. That's great!

Except there isn't enough police to have them in every club all night. If there wasn't a fluorescent jacket in sight, the cowardly beasts will be able to operate as they normally do.

The fact that there's the possibility of a plain clothes police officer being in the club, would mean that they might not take the risk.

It's not going to stop men brutalising, raping and murdering women in itself, but it would be a positive step.

Great gig for the polis officers, btw!

Edit: I agree with your sentiments generally though.


I may be reading this wrong but I think the idea is to have undercover officers around bars etc not in them. If someone wants to ply drinks etc there would still be the same opportunity as there is now. I would actually be a bit more supportive if the idea was for officers to be inside premises or perhaps spot checking to make sure bar workers, bouncers etc were doing a good job. I worked in pubs for years so fully understand how difficult it would be for bar workers but they should all be trained and at the very least be expected to stop serving those who have had too much.

"Dubbed ‘Project Vigilant’, the programme can involve officers attending areas around clubs and bars undercover, along with increased police patrols as people leave at closing time."

[Jack]

I read somewhere a while ago that in Spain a third of the officers on duty at any one time are plain clothes, might even have been higher.

I go to Spain quite often, or used to, and have always been happily surprised at the number of officers in plain sight, its quite reassuring. To think there's considerably more milling around just reinforces that.

I wonder how much influence this policing policy has on the attitudes, particularly on groups of younger Spanish revellers who seem to have a helluva great time without the fallout that blights our city centers at the weekend.

[wookie70]

I read somewhere a while ago that in Spain a third of the officers on duty at any one time are plain clothes, might even have been higher.

I go to Spain quite often, or used to, and have always been happily surprised at the number of officers in plain sight, its quite reassuring. To think there's considerably more milling around just reinforces that.

I wonder how much influence this policing policy has on the attitudes, particularly on groups of younger Spanish revellers who seem to have a helluva great time without the fallout that blights our city centers at the weekend.

I was just reading about Spanish Policing on the back of your post. They seem to have three different forces, Local, National and a civil force who deal with speeding etc. That seems quite sensible to me.

[Future17]

Undercover cops, what could possibly go wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/28/secrets-and-lies-untangling-the-uk-spy-cops-scandal

Wasn’t the girl killed by a policeman in plain clothes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Murdered by an off duty officer....

Allegedly.

[Berwickhibby]

Allegedly.

No allegedly about it, he was off duty

[Future17]

No allegedly about it, he was off duty

If we're being pernickety, even that is only alleged at this stage. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

No allegedly about it, he was off duty

Are you saying that on duty police are saints but off duty it doesn't matter that they are police officers?

[Berwickhibby]

If we're being pernickety, even that is only alleged at this stage. :greengrin

Fair enough...

[Keith_M]

I'm unclear how this would have much impact on deterring those who attack women who are not in pubs but walking alone outside.

It's been mentioned on another thread but this case bears similarities to the Moira Jones case in Glasgow. Moira's mum makes some very good points about how the human tragedy of Sarah Everard's death and those most directly related to it (her loved ones) are being lost amid the general hysteria.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56414694


Some total ar5eholes have hijacked the tributes to Moira on the gates at Queens Park by adding offensive notes about the Police.

These people are sick barstewards.

:rolleyes:

[Berwickhibby]

Are you saying that on duty police are saints but off duty it doesn't matter that they are police officers?

Once again you spout your inane drivel.,. I did not say or suggest anything of the sort

[Bristolhibby]

Another idea that will fall by the wayside .... there is not enough resources now to cover normal response duty, never mind plain clothes pub roving patrols....

I know, my mate who works in Avon and Somerset was saying one weekend last year they didn’t have enough cops to investigate rape reports, (ie they had to wait longer than normal).

Forget headline making hairbrain schemes like this. Same with cops chapping at your door because there’s two families having a BBQ. Not going to happen.

J

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I think we are too readily making the link here between your over confident mate who might try it on a step too far at the club to the rape and murder of women.

I don't think it is the same type of behaviours or same type of people at all who would be involved.

As for pubs and clubs, I think a lot of the coverage over the last few days has portrayed women as weak and getting taken advantage of or at least habitually harassed everywhere they go. This doesn't really reflect my 30 odd years of going out.

I certainly didn't have the baws to approach or talk to anyone and my experiences even in larger groups is that the girls held all the power there. They decided who they would interact with and at the end of the night who might be lucky or not. You'd obviously see your over confident types who would try it on more than others but generally one of two things happened there - he would swiftly be told to get lost by the girls or more amazingly it would work. That's just the experiences of me and my mates and I know my wife's group of friends loved their time as student nurses and from their stores they were certainly in charge too.

I don't think officers in clubs will do anything to tackle the characters that rape and murder.

Pretty much sums up my general experiences too.

[heretoday]

Well Taggart used to spend a fair amount of time in the pub so why not?

[Moulin Yarns]

Well Taggart used to spend a fair amount of time in the pub so why not?

And Rebus 😉

[Keith_M]

Well Taggart used to spend a fair amount of time in the pub so why not?


And Rebus 😉


And Morse

[hibsbollah]

And Morse

:agree: Samuel Smiths was his pint of choice.

[Keith_M]

:agree: Samuel Smiths was his pint of choice.


You learn something new every day

:greengrin

[heretoday]

A copper can pick up some useful information by keeping his ears and eyes open in the local. (taps side of nose and winks knowingly)

[beensaidbefore]

I think we are too readily making the link here between your over confident mate who might try it on a step too far at the club to the rape and murder of women.

I don't think it is the same type of behaviours or same type of people at all who would be involved.

As for pubs and clubs, I think a lot of the coverage over the last few days has portrayed women as weak and getting taken advantage of or at least habitually harassed everywhere they go. This doesn't really reflect my 30 odd years of going out.

I certainly didn't have the baws to approach or talk to anyone and my experiences even in larger groups is that the girls held all the power there. They decided who they would interact with and at the end of the night who might be lucky or not. You'd obviously see your over confident types who would try it on more than others but generally one of two things happened there - he would swiftly be told to get lost by the girls or more amazingly it would work. That's just the experiences of me and my mates and I know my wife's group of friends loved their time as student nurses and from their stores they were certainly in charge too.

I don't think officers in clubs will do anything to tackle the characters that rape and murder.

That sounds similar to my experiences of being out at clubs and pubs. I would have thought in places I have been the bounces would have been the 'law' and people would be free to approach them about incidents of concern. Given bouncers are now checked more than ever before, perhaps there is scope to train these guys and pay them a proper wage into the bargain.

[147lothian]

The latest knee jerk reaction to the tragic murder of Sarah Everard , this should be interesting.

An interesting debate on this on you tube channel forum Triggernomentry, called Are Women safe on our streets, that's the very point that Emma Webb, who is a columnist in the spectator makes that undercover cops in bars is a knee jerk reaction to the tragic murder of Sarah Everard.