1% pay rise NHS Staff

[gbhibby]

After all that the NHS staff have gone through during the Pandemic they are offered a derisory 1% pay rise says it all about the Tories.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Absolute disgrace.

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish govt will try to do better but it will be difficult due to our finances being decided by London. If they only give 1% then ultimately that’s all the money that they will give us as well. If we want to do better then we will have to cut spending elsewhere.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

i was reading there's a planned cut of £30billion in day-to-day spending at the department of health and social care from april,falling from £199.7B to £169B, NHS England will see funding fall from £147.7B to £139B from next year

source: english daily mail



thank goodness we're saving £350m/week

source: side of a big red bus


saw on fb that vile crooked corrupt little runt hancock was in glasgow yesterday :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

It was always going to be this way, as soon as I saw Boris Johnson clapping like a Duracel monkey on the steps of 10 Downing Street, it was obvious that it would come down to this.

[Allant1981]

Scottish govt will try to do better but it will be difficult due to our finances being decided by London. If they only give 1% then ultimately that’s all the money that they will give us as well. If we want to do better then we will have to cut spending elsewhere.


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Pretty sure our pay deals have always been slightly different to England, although the last one was a wee while ago so may be wrong, think their pay scale might be slightly different as well, I'm sure the top of my pay band is £2k a year more than a band 7 in england

[Santa Cruz]

After all that the NHS staff have gone through during the Pandemic they are offered a derisory 1% pay rise says it all about the Tories.

It is very poor. The SG announced the same before UK Gov although that could change after negotiations because their current pay award was due to end at the end of the financial year. The £500 NHS staff bonus was announced days before Unison was about to begin a ballot in favour of industrial action.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/nhs-nurses-say-1-interim-pay-rise-is-slap-in-the-face?top

[JimBHibees]

It is very poor. The SG announced the same before UK Gov although that could change after negotiations because their current pay award was due to end at the end of the financial year. The £500 NHS staff bonus was announced days before Unison was about to begin a ballot in favour of industrial action.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/nhs-nurses-say-1-interim-pay-rise-is-slap-in-the-face?top

Personally think the Scottish position is reasonable given the bonus paid plus backdating to December prior to negotiations. Let's see what comes out of that.

[Hiber-nation]

Nadine Dorries on TV just now falling down a deep hole by basically saying that it's ok because nurses are doing it for the love of the job.

[Jack]

Nadine Dorries on TV just now falling down a deep hole by basically saying that it's ok because nurses are doing it for the love of the job.

I think that's part of the problem nurses have.

I can recall a few years ago debating pay with a nurse. When I suggested governments would always take the piss unless nurses were prepared to use even just the threat of strike action she almost broke down in tears saying they could never do that because they love their job.

[JimBHibees]

I think that's part of the problem nurses have.

I can recall a few years ago debating pay with a nurse. When I suggested governments would always take the piss unless nurses were prepared to use even just the threat of strike action she almost broke down in tears saying they could never do that because they love their job.

They know the impact it would have on patients that is why.

[ronaldo7]

£37 billion for their friends at serco for test and trace. It's got to be paid for from somewhere. The nurses will have to suck it up.

Let's hope the Scottish government can magic up some money to keep paying our nurses more than those in the rest of the UK. They deserve it.

[Ryan91]

Meanwhile England's test and trace will cost £37B, at least

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/test-and-trace-spending-ps37bn-budget-small-print_uk_60412920c5b601179ec35d4a/?pti=&__twitter_impression=true

[JimBHibees]

£37 billion for their friends at serco for test and trace. It's got to be paid for from somewhere. The nurses will have to suck it up.

Let's hope the Scottish government can magic up some money to keep paying our nurses more than those in the rest of the UK. They deserve it.

Nothing to see here. You honestly couldn't make it up

[easty]

Is this all NHS staff?

There has to be a way to split up who gets a pay rise, and what amount.

My girlfriend works covering quite a few wards in a hospital, she’s a dietitian and has been run off her feet the last few months. She absolutely deserved the £500 bonus they all recently received and deserves a pay rise.

One of my best friends works in an admin role, he’s working from home. He’s cruising. He’s still allowed to “work an extra hour a day” to get time off in flexi hours. They’re all doing it apparently. He didn’t deserve a £500 bonus, but they all get it. A 1% pay rise is prob all he deserves!

[BroxburnHibee]

The thing that gets me is why would anyone be surprised?

Its what Tories do.

[Pretty Boy]

Devil's advocate big time here but a 1% pay rise and relative job security is a damn site more than a lot of people are going to have in the next few years.

I got no pay rise last year, we have already been told there will not be one this year (usually takes effect in April) and there was no Christmas bonus last year. I'm real terms a pay freeze is a pay decrease and I'm going to be significantly worse off for the foreseeable future.

Of course 1% is paltry and an insult but various other workers in different sectors who worked throughout the pandemic will be treated even worse with little to no public outcry.

[lapsedhibee]

Devil's advocate big time here but a 1% pay rise and relative job security is a damn site more than a lot of people are going to have in the next few years.

If 50,000 are tempted to retrain, that's Johnson's promised recruitment sorted. (Or a bit more than 50,000, as the nurses that died will also have to be replaced.)

[Jones28]

Devil's advocate big time here but a 1% pay rise and relative job security is a damn site more than a lot of people are going to have in the next few years.

I got no pay rise last year, we have already been told there will not be one this year (usually takes effect in April) and there was no Christmas bonus last year. I'm real terms a pay freeze is a pay decrease and I'm going to be significantly worse off for the foreseeable future.

Of course 1% is paltry and an insult but various other workers in different sectors who worked throughout the pandemic will be treated even worse with little to no public outcry.

I got no bonus, no pay rise, no extra Christmas income. Ordinarily I'd be disappointed, but this isn't ordinary.

The difference is these people were putting themselves in harms way dealing with COVID on a daily basis, potentially taking it home to their families. A 1% increase after promising they would not be part of the public sector freeze is just despicable.

[Pretty Boy]

I got no bonus, no pay rise, no extra Christmas income. Ordinarily I'd be disappointed, but this isn't ordinary.

The difference is these people were putting themselves in harms way dealing with COVID on a daily basis, potentially taking it home to their families. A 1% increase after promising they would not be part of the public sector freeze is just despicable.

Oh I agree. I did say there was a huge dollop of devil's advocate at play.

I just hope people will be as quick to champion the cause of cleaners, care workers, teachers, supermarket workers, delivery drivers and the like when there isn't a bandwagon to jump on.

This has all the hallmarks of short term anger that quickly dissipates into long term apathy.

[Kato]

Shame the miners can't go on strike on their behalf.

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[Bostonhibby]

A very Nasty party approach to this, didn't take long for the likes of Nadine Dorries to come out and patronise everyone involved by explaining how they'll just have to put up with it.

They've got all those contracts unilaterally awarded under Emergecy Powers to their cronies to fund.

Might be easier to understand if the likes of her would campaign to get on with getting all the contracts compliantly published so we can see why it's difficult to properly reward the exceptional risks taken by whole groups of public servants during the crisis.

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[Smartie]

One of the problems is that "NHS staff" incorporates all sorts of different roles and positions - clinicians, management, special advisors, auxiliary staff etc etc.

I know a good few people who receive the £500 gift this month and are deeply uncomfortable about it (the first 2 people I can think of off the top of my head are a hospital consultant and a guy who owns a few dental practices).

There will be people who are fully deserving of the 1% rise and should have had much more than that from a long time ago. There will be wasters who are totally undeserving. The way it normally goes is that the ones who deserve it will not be demanding it and will be bamboozled by the very fact that it is being suggested, and the ones who do not will be the ones taking to social media and shouting from the rooftops about how unappreciated they are.

The NHS is a political football, it attracts sweeping statements that provide no room for nuance and as a much loved institution that must not be criticised, it attracts headlines.

It's easier to demand the pay rise on social media or to bang some pots together at 7pm every Thursday than it is to accept that that rise is funded by an increased deduction from your own pay packet at the end of the month though.

And so if we're all agreed that the pay rise should be higher - who pays for it?

[Crunchie]

Is this all NHS staff?

There has to be a way to split up who gets a pay rise, and what amount.

My girlfriend works covering quite a few wards in a hospital, she’s a dietitian and has been run off her feet the last few months. She absolutely deserved the £500 bonus they all recently received and deserves a pay rise.

One of my best friends works in an admin role, he’s working from home. He’s cruising. He’s still allowed to “work an extra hour a day” to get time off in flexi hours. They’re all doing it apparently. He didn’t deserve a £500 bonus, but they all get it. A 1% pay rise is prob all he deserves!
Unfortunately it's the world we live in now, undoubtedly front line staff who have literally put their lives on the line this past year absolutely deserve more than the work at home etc.

[Crunchie]

One of the problems is that "NHS staff" incorporates all sorts of different roles and positions - clinicians, management, special advisors, auxiliary staff etc etc.

I know a good few people who receive the £500 gift this month and are deeply uncomfortable about it (the first 2 people I can think of off the top of my head are a hospital consultant and a guy who owns a few dental practices).

There will be people who are fully deserving of the 1% rise and should have had much more than that from a long time ago. There will be wasters who are totally undeserving. The way it normally goes is that the ones who deserve it will not be demanding it and will be bamboozled by the very fact that it is being suggested, and the ones who do not will be the ones taking to social media and shouting from the rooftops about how unappreciated they are.

The NHS is a political football, it attracts sweeping statements that provide no room for nuance and as a much loved institution that must not be criticised, it attracts headlines.

It's easier to demand the pay rise on social media or to bang some pots together at 7pm every Thursday than it is to accept that that rise is funded by an increased deduction from your own pay packet at the end of the month though.

And so if we're all agreed that the pay rise should be higher - who pays for it?

Absolutely spot on imo. :top marks

[Pretty Boy]

To expand on my earlier posts so I don't come across as campaigning against a pay rise for NHS staff let me be clear.

Firstly the 1% is paltry, it's insulting and it's far less than deserved. However in many ways it will suit the Tories for people to be focused on that because it takes focus away from the wider assault on the lowest paid workers announced in the budget, many of whom have also contributed greatly throughout the pandemic.

The increase in minimum wage is equally paltry and it's balanced by a freeze on the personal allowance at £12500. In real terms that's a tax increase that will disproportionately impact those who can least afford it a sit brings more of someone's income into the basic rate bracket.

Many social care workers, as an example, earn little more than minimum wage, they are often unpaid for time spent between clients and often have to fund their own costs when travelling between clients. I know that won't apply to every company but it's certainly true of at least 2 I have experience with. These people who have provided intimate care throughout a pandemic are in real terms earning less than minimum wage, are potentially eligible to pay more of their income in tax and are unlikely to see any significant increase in their pay in the near future.

I would argue the government would be far more concerned if people were questioning why social care and indeed various NHS contracts are run for profit and if people were questioning why there has been a stealth tax rise on the poorest workers in society. Secretly I think they will be pretty pleased if all the focus is on a 1% pay rise for NHS workers.

It's part of a bigger picture and a bigger assault on the poor. The Tories have lined up the likes of teachers as scapegoats and people have bought into it, they will use that when teachers unions inevitably seek a pay rise in the not too distant future. It's Tory 101, turn workers against each other and divide and conquer. People getting angry about a paltry pay rise for one sector start squabbling about who does and doesn't deserve better. They pitch nurses against teachers against delivery drivers against bin men. Nobody wins.

[B.H.F.C]

One of the problems is that "NHS staff" incorporates all sorts of different roles and positions - clinicians, management, special advisors, auxiliary staff etc etc.

I know a good few people who receive the £500 gift this month and are deeply uncomfortable about it (the first 2 people I can think of off the top of my head are a hospital consultant and a guy who owns a few dental practices).

There will be people who are fully deserving of the 1% rise and should have had much more than that from a long time ago. There will be wasters who are totally undeserving. The way it normally goes is that the ones who deserve it will not be demanding it and will be bamboozled by the very fact that it is being suggested, and the ones who do not will be the ones taking to social media and shouting from the rooftops about how unappreciated they are.

The NHS is a political football, it attracts sweeping statements that provide no room for nuance and as a much loved institution that must not be criticised, it attracts headlines.

It's easier to demand the pay rise on social media or to bang some pots together at 7pm every Thursday than it is to accept that that rise is funded by an increased deduction from your own pay packet at the end of the month though.

And so if we're all agreed that the pay rise should be higher - who pays for it?

Good post.

My Mrs works in Community Pharmacy and hasn’t missed a day of work since the pandemic began. They had to fight to be included in the £500 gift that is being given. But then you have thousands of people working for the NHS who haven’t had to leave the house for a year who automatically qualify.

I’m all for people being rewarded (NHS or otherwise) but it needs to be the right people.

[Jones28]

Oh I agree. I did say there was a huge dollop of devil's advocate at play.

I just hope people will be as quick to champion the cause of cleaners, care workers, teachers, supermarket workers, delivery drivers and the like when there isn't a bandwagon to jump on.

This has all the hallmarks of short term anger that quickly dissipates into long term apathy.

I know what you're saying, but there wont be the same level of anger at all mainly because they aren't seen in the same way. I think that's justified, and that goes for all hospital staff. Social care staff should be included as well. Many of the others you cite will be privately contracted so I wouldn't put them in the same bracket as hospital staff.

[wookie70]

Can we stop calling Pay Awards or offers Pay Rises. The 1% is under predicted inflation so is a pay cut. The Pay Remit from SG for Scottish Civil Servants is 1% for over 25k and 3% for under. That is definitely for Civil Servants not sure how or if it applies to other public servants including NHS workers

[RyeSloan]

Can we stop calling Pay Awards or offers Pay Rises. The 1% is under predicted inflation so is a pay cut. The Pay Remit from SG for Scottish Civil Servants is 1% for over 25k and 3% for under. That is definitely for Civil Servants not sure how or if it applies to other public servants including NHS workers

You can’t award pay on predicted inflation though.

CPI is 0.7% so 1% is ahead of inflation to technically would be a rise.

And is more than the 0% for all the staff in my work right enough but I’m not a frontline worker!

I reckon the U.K. Gvt are just being daft. Of course pay constraint is needed in the fiscal climate...almost everyone I know in the private section are getting nowt this year.

But frontline NHS staff have clearly went above and beyond in the last year so offering 1% was always going to provoke a fierce backlash. Not sure the 12.5% ask from the unions is any more sensible, esp. considering the amounts from the last 3 year deal but the obvious answer is something along the lines of what Scotland have done.

Offer an inflation + 1% with a one off bonus to recognise last years extreme circumstances and you could potentially have the starting point for semi sensible debate...now it’s just turned into a right mess immediately.

[neil7908]

One of the problems is that "NHS staff" incorporates all sorts of different roles and positions - clinicians, management, special advisors, auxiliary staff etc etc.

I know a good few people who receive the £500 gift this month and are deeply uncomfortable about it (the first 2 people I can think of off the top of my head are a hospital consultant and a guy who owns a few dental practices).

There will be people who are fully deserving of the 1% rise and should have had much more than that from a long time ago. There will be wasters who are totally undeserving. The way it normally goes is that the ones who deserve it will not be demanding it and will be bamboozled by the very fact that it is being suggested, and the ones who do not will be the ones taking to social media and shouting from the rooftops about how unappreciated they are.

The NHS is a political football, it attracts sweeping statements that provide no room for nuance and as a much loved institution that must not be criticised, it attracts headlines.

It's easier to demand the pay rise on social media or to bang some pots together at 7pm every Thursday than it is to accept that that rise is funded by an increased deduction from your own pay packet at the end of the month though.

And so if we're all agreed that the pay rise should be higher - who pays for it?

I'll happily accept a tax rise if my money is going to the NHS staff. And I'm a 20% bracket tax payer.

The pandemic has hit a load of people very hard. But there are plenty folk like me who are financially untouched. I'm no worse off now than I was a year ago. It's the opposite actually, I've saved plenty from no trips abroad, eating out etc. Loads of people like me who, collectively, can afford to pay a bit mire tax.

[The Modfather]

I'll happily accept a tax rise if my money is going to the NHS staff. And I'm a 20% bracket tax payer.

The pandemic has hit a load of people very hard. But there are plenty folk like me who are financially untouched. I'm no worse off now than I was a year ago. It's the opposite actually, I've saved plenty from no trips abroad, eating out etc. Loads of people like me who, collectively, can afford to pay a bit mire tax.

There’s lots of nuances to this debate. The contractor market has been left to fend for itself. Without wanting to turn it into specifics or woe is me, as a real example. My sector took a nosedive as a result of Covid (year end also being a factor in a traditionally slow project recruitment time of the year) and I had 5 months out of contract where I wasn’t eligible for furlough or the SEISS scheme and left to survive on my savings. Now Corporation Tax is increasing despite a whole lot of the contractor market falling through the cracks and left to fend for themselves. All on the back of the IR35 cash grab in March last year.

I do agree with your point more generally though re the NHS, but there are other sectors that have been impacted arguably as much as the NHS that go under the radar in these debates.

Apologies for the thread tangent and for something a bit more personal to myself than the debate on this thread.

[Sylar]

Nadine Dorries on TV just now falling down a deep hole by basically saying that it's ok because nurses are doing it for the love of the job.

I'd love to see that woman hit with an RPG from 10ft away. We can clap her back to health.

[Santa Cruz]

I'll happily accept a tax rise if my money is going to the NHS staff. And I'm a 20% bracket tax payer.

The pandemic has hit a load of people very hard. But there are plenty folk like me who are financially untouched. I'm no worse off now than I was a year ago. It's the opposite actually, I've saved plenty from no trips abroad, eating out etc. Loads of people like me who, collectively, can afford to pay a bit mire tax.

Surely the tax rise would apply to everyone in the 20% bracket including a lot of NHS staff which then kind of cancels out the benefits of a pay rise? Personally, I'd be more inclined to accept a tax rise if it was going towards funding and improving the NHS & Social Care sector that would also benefit all it's employees who will either be patients or have family that are service users.

[neil7908]

There’s lots of nuances to this debate. The contractor market has been left to fend for itself. Without wanting to turn it into specifics or woe is me, as a real example. My sector took a nosedive as a result of Covid (year end also being a factor in a traditionally slow project recruitment time of the year) and I had 5 months out of contract where I wasn’t eligible for furlough or the SEISS scheme and left to survive on my savings. Now Corporation Tax is increasing despite a whole lot of the contractor market falling through the cracks and left to fend for themselves. All on the back of the IR35 cash grab in March last year.

I do agree with your point more generally though re the NHS, but there are other sectors that have been impacted arguably as much as the NHS that go under the radar in these debates.

Apologies for the thread tangent and for something a bit more personal to myself than the debate on this thread.

Absolutely, to be clear there are many, many people who have been absolutely hammered by COVID economic impact, l lost jobs etc. Not suggesting they should be asked to pay more. But plenty of high earners, or medium earners like me, are doing fine.

I am generally supportive of higher taxes as per my political beliefs. I just think that this "we're all in it together" stuff is a nonsense. There is still loads of wealth in this country and however its done, we can afford to get front line workers the pay they deserve.

I do agree with points earlier though about whether increases should apply to the whole NHS. Personally it's front line workers who deserve it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Surely the tax rise would apply to everyone in the 20% bracket including a lot of NHS staff which then kind of cancels out the benefits of a pay rise? Personally, I'd be more inclined to accept a tax rise if it was going towards funding and improving the NHS & Social Care sector that would also benefit all it's employees who will either be patients or have family that are service users.

A pay rise for nurses, even with a higher tax rate, would still leave them with more in their pocket.

[Santa Cruz]

A pay rise for nurses, even with a higher tax rate, would still leave them with more in their pocket.

It's not a pay rise just for nurses that is currently being negotiated in the SNHS though. It's all NHS employee's.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's not a pay rise just for nurses that is currently being negotiated in the SNHS though. It's all NHS employee's.

I was responding to your point that a tax rise would cancel out any increase in pay. It wouldn't.

(replace "nurses" in my post with "NHS staff" :wink:)

[Santa Cruz]

I was responding to your point that a tax rise would cancel out any increase in pay. It wouldn't.

(replace "nurses" in my post with "NHS staff" :wink:)

Nae probs, maybe cancel out was the wrong way to put it, to an extent it would defeat the purpose, as in giving in one hand but taking away in another.:aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

Nae probs, maybe cancel out was the wrong way to put it, to an extent it would defeat the purpose, as in giving in one hand but taking away in another.:aok:

The giving would be 70%, the taking 30% :cb

[Santa Cruz]

The giving would be 70%, the taking 30% :cb

Not sure I follow. So, for example an employee earns 20k and they get a 3% increase taking them to £20,600. Then income tax increases say 1-2%, how much is their take home pay increasing after tax and N.I. deductions? I could sit and work this out, but it would take a while :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure I follow. So, for example an employee earns 20k and they get a 3% increase taking them to £20,600. Then income tax increases say 1-2%, how much is their take home pay increasing after tax and N.I. deductions? I could sit and work this out, but it would take a while :greengrin

It's quite a straightforward calculation. Broadly, you look at the marginal rate of tax, say it's now 21%, and the NI rate of 12%.

So 33% of the increase comes back to the Government, and 67% is take home pay.

Slightly complicated by the fact that some of the pre-increase pay will also be taxed at 21%. But, as most of that will be covered by the Personal Allowance and the Lower Rate, the effect won't be significant.

Call it 60:40 😆

[Allant1981]

A pay rise for nurses, even with a higher tax rate, would still leave them with more in their pocket.

Of course it does but not a lot, the 1% for me equates to £38 per month before tax, still better than a lot of staff in other sectors which I appreciate but no one is really going to notice a 1% pay rise

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course it does but not a lot, the 1% for me equates to £38 per month before tax, still better than a lot of staff in other sectors which I appreciate but no one is really going to notice a 1% pay rise

I'm not disagreeing. My issue was with the notion that a general increase in tax rates, to fund an increase in NHS salaries, wouldn't benefit the staff.

[Pretty Boy]

Absolutely, to be clear there are many, many people who have been absolutely hammered by COVID economic impact, l lost jobs etc. Not suggesting they should be asked to pay more. But plenty of high earners, or medium earners like me, are doing fine.

I am generally supportive of higher taxes as per my political beliefs. I just think that this "we're all in it together" stuff is a nonsense. There is still loads of wealth in this country and however its done, we can afford to get front line workers the pay they deserve.

I do agree with points earlier though about whether increases should apply to the whole NHS. Personally it's front line workers who deserve it.

I think it becomes a very dangerous game when we start grading the worth of people who work in the NHS (or any job really).

How effective is the work of a doctor or nurse without extensive admin support? The whole system works on the basis that everyone plays their part. A surgeon can't operate if his theatre isn't clinically sterile and that requires an extensive housekeeping team; they only work because somebody runs payroll to pay them. My sister is a nurse in A&E. She triages patients (among other things obviously) then passes them on to a doctor, nurse practicioner or other relevant person. If the said person refers them to a specialist at a later date who arranges the appointment, ensures notes are passed on etc? Admin and clerical support. As evidenced in tragic clarity last year doctors and nurses can't work unless they have the correct equipment and that requires extensive procurement teams. The entire vaccine programme is only working because of the efforts of admin and clerical support.

Again I think it suits the Tories perfectly if people aren't only squabbling about which industries deserve better payment but then try to break it down into who deserves what even within an organisation like the NHS. We have been trained to think of anyone without a stethoscope around their neck as a 'pen pusher'. My experience is that front line workers don't subscribe to that line of thought.

Of course the uncomfortable truth is that the NHS is a black hole that swallows money. No matter what you throw at it it will never be enough. It's a conversation that is strictly off limits across the political spectrum for various reasons though so it's role as a political football is ensured.

[Allant1981]

I think it becomes a very dangerous game when we start grading the worth of people who work in the NHS (or any job really).

How effective is the work of a doctor or nurse without extensive admin support? The whole system works on the basis that everyone plays their part. A surgeon can't operate if his theatre isn't clinically sterile and that requires an extensive housekeeping team; they only work because somebody runs payroll to pay them. My sister is a nurse in A&E. She triages patients (among other things obviously) then passes them on to a doctor, nurse practicioner or other relevant person. If the said person refers them to a specialist at a later date who arranges the appointment, ensures notes are passed on etc? Admin and clerical support. As evidenced in tragic clarity last year doctors and nurses can't work unless they have the correct equipment and that requires extensive procurement teams. The entire vaccine programme is only working because of the efforts of admin and clerical support.

Again I think it suits the Tories perfectly if people aren't only squabbling about which industries deserve better payment but then try to break it down into who deserves what even within an organisation like the NHS. We have been trained to think of anyone without a stethoscope around their neck as a 'pen pusher'. My experience is that front line workers don't subscribe to that line of thought.

Of course the uncomfortable truth is that the NHS is a black hole that swallows money. No matter what you throw at it it will never be enough. It's a conversation that is strictly off limits across the political spectrum for various reasons though so it's role as a political football is ensured.

Totally agree, I'm on secondment to the mass vacc sites just now but in my "normal" role I have staff that are band 2 porters and domestics and they often feel like they are the bottom of the pile but if they weren't in their roles then the clinical teams would find it harder doing their day to day job, will never change though

[wookie70]

You can’t award pay on predicted inflation though.

CPI is 0.7% so 1% is ahead of inflation to technically would be a rise.

And is more than the 0% for all the staff in my work right enough but I’m not a frontline worker!

I reckon the U.K. Gvt are just being daft. Of course pay constraint is needed in the fiscal climate...almost everyone I know in the private section are getting nowt this year.

But frontline NHS staff have clearly went above and beyond in the last year so offering 1% was always going to provoke a fierce backlash. Not sure the 12.5% ask from the unions is any more sensible, esp. considering the amounts from the last 3 year deal but the obvious answer is something along the lines of what Scotland have done.

Offer an inflation + 1% with a one off bonus to recognise last years extreme circumstances and you could potentially have the starting point for semi sensible debate...now it’s just turned into a right mess immediately.

RPI is a far better measure imo and that is over 1%. I would normally agree that predicted inflation isn't a good measure but with Brexit the basics will go up and that will make a big difference to those on nurses pay and other modest earners

[gbhibby]

There’s lots of nuances to this debate. The contractor market has been left to fend for itself. Without wanting to turn it into specifics or woe is me, as a real example. My sector took a nosedive as a result of Covid (year end also being a factor in a traditionally slow project recruitment time of the year) and I had 5 months out of contract where I wasn’t eligible for furlough or the SEISS scheme and left to survive on my savings. Now Corporation Tax is increasing despite a whole lot of the contractor market falling through the cracks and left to fend for themselves. All on the back of the IR35 cash grab in March last year.

I do agree with your point more generally though re the NHS, but there are other sectors that have been impacted arguably as much as the NHS that go under the radar in these debates.

Apologies for the thread tangent and for something a bit more personal to myself than the debate on this thread.
I like you have received nothing from the self employed scheme. There are three million excluded which is a disgrace. They have means tested the self employed and have changed the criteria again for the next tranche of help. They have shown no signs of sympathy for the excluded and deny that the issue exists.

[hibsbollah]

A big red bus told me that Brexit was saving the country £350 million a week, which could go to the NHS instead.

I don’t really know what the fuss is about, just use a bit of that to pay the nurses. Job done.

[Bristolhibby]

They know the impact it would have on patients that is why.

It’s also the total power they have if they would be prepared to use it.

Tories take the utter piss out of healthcare professionals because of the fact they care.

J

[Andy74]

It’s also the total power they have if they would be prepared to use it.

Tories take the utter piss out of healthcare professionals because of the fact they care.

J

A lot of people care about the jobs they do. Unfortunately this is just an economic reality and if they are getting any sort of raise then good luck to them, very few people in any line of work will be getting that.

[One Day Soon]

This is the perfect thread for posting that Homer-Simpson-disappearing-backwards-into-a-hedge gif.

[Bridge hibs]

It’s also the total power they have if they would be prepared to use it.

Tories take the utter piss out of healthcare professionals because of the fact they care.

JMy Brothers partner is a Physio in Borders NHS, she suggests within all platforms a strike would be staged. Each area within Therapies, Nursing etc will allow Union members to ‘picket’ on rotation, ie if there were 6 Physios in her team then they would rotate, thus effectively offering a weekend service as opposed to an all out strike. This would be akin to a weekend working service where they would still rehab priority patients. Nursing would be similar if they have capacity

[Danderhall Hibs]

I agree that it shouldn’t be across the board and could be ranked on performance and where they’ve been working.

Maybe they should pay the staff in A&E (and similar) more than those that work in clinics etc? It would make nurses aspire to work in those areas rather than the easier life of the 9-5 clinic.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.fda.org.uk/home/Newsandmedia/News/13-pay-deal-for-HMRC-members.aspx

I wonder what the tory government will say to justify this 🤔

[Future17]

A lot of people care about the jobs they do. Unfortunately this is just an economic reality and if they are getting any sort of raise then good luck to them, very few people in any line of work will be getting that.

What do you mean by this being an economic reality? That's a phrase that's used quite often - usually by those trying to justify not spending money they'd rather keep. What do you mean by it specifically in this context?

[Keith_M]

24412

[Andy74]

What do you mean by this being an economic reality? That's a phrase that's used quite often - usually by those trying to justify not spending money they'd rather keep. What do you mean by it specifically in this context?

In this context it is a pay rise that virtually no one in any other sector is getting because the money isn’t there.

In terms of being money that someone else would rather keep - it isn’t there to keep, it will be paid for by other people again in their taxes.

Some might but I don’t think there’s anything special about NHS staff that means that they get singled out for a pay rise when others don’t - and others also need to fund it.

My wife has worked for the NHS all her days and agrees. The sentiment that some people attach to to the NHS is lovely but basically they are largely just people doing their jobs like everyone else. In fact, away from the front line it is a badly run, bureaucratic money pit.

[Keith_M]

In this context it is a pay rise that virtually no one in any other sector is getting because the money isn’t there.
....


Do you mean except for the friends of the Government getting billions in contracts with no apparent experience?

Or the high up members of the DWP that just got a 13% pay rise?

[gbhibby]

24412
👏👏👏👏👏👏

[calumhibee1]

Do you mean except for the friends of the Government getting billions in contracts with no apparent experience?

Or the high up members of the DWP that just got a 13% pay rise?

Having worked for the UKCS for about 13 years I’ve no idea how that pay rise has been approved. My department has had 1% or less every year as far as I can remember and that goes for every person.

[Keith_M]

Having worked for the UKCS for about 13 years I’ve no idea how that pay rise has been approved. My department has had 1% or less every year as far as I can remember and that goes for every person.


As far as I understand it, this is only for the higher ranks, not 'menial staff' like yourself, Calum.

Here's a few interesting statistics on the backgrounds of the higher echelons on the Civil Service that might explain the difference.

"Educational charity the Sutton Trust said 59% of the current perm secs in government departments went to private school, an increase of 4% since 2014. Meanwhile, 56% went to either the University of Oxford or Cambridge, the report published today said.

Privately-educated people – classed as those who spent most of their secondary-school years at a fee-paying school – made up a higher proportion of perm secs than any other profession looked at in the report except for senior judges, where the figure was 65%."

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/professions/article/more-perm-secs-privately-educated-than-five-years-ago-report-finds


Or have a look at THIS (https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Elitist-Britain-2019.pdf) report published by The Sutton Trust.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's me convinced

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56260038

[wookie70]

We were discussing the Scottish Government Pay Remit at work today. Scottish Civil Servants will get 800 minimum underpin up to £25K, 2% for over £25K to £40K and 1% for over £40K to a maximum of £80K. The remit usually applies to teachers and nurses from what I understand and The Green Party have done a great job of improving the initial offer which was 1% for over £25K and £750 underpin for under £25K. That is the second or third time those Green seats have been very valuable to Scottish Public Servants. Looks to me like Scottish Nurses will get a decent bit more than their English counterparts. They richly deserve more imo but at least 2% and an offer angled towards the lower paid means those earning under £40K will not be worse off at least in terms of the current RPI figure of 1.4%

[Northernhibee]

That's me convinced

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56260038

Tories really are vile, aren't they? I can't imagine what makes anyone look at that and think "Aye, that's who I want to align myself with or vote for".

Utter pricks.