Trophies

[allmodcons]

I know nobody likes a 'bit of perspective' when we are all hurting, but the narrative that we do much worse than other clubs in cup competitions does not seem to stack up. Over the last 20 years, the stats since the millennium, excluding the Old Firm who have been dominant for decades, read:-

Scottish Cup Winners - Hibs, Hearts (2), Dundee Utd, ICT and St Johnstone. Most finals Hibs (4) and Hearts (4).

League Cup Winners - Hibs, Livingston, Aberdeen, St Mirren, Ross County, Kilmarnock. Most finals Hibs (3), Aberdeen (3) and Kilmarnock (3).

[Lancs Harp]

I know nobody likes a 'bit of perspective' when we are all hurting, but the narrative that we do much worse than other clubs in cup competitions does not seem to stack up. Over the last 20 years, the stats since the millennium, excluding the Old Firm who have been dominant for decades, read:-

Scottish Cup Winners - Hibs, Hearts (2), Dundee Utd, ICT and St Johnstone. Most finals Hibs (4) and Hearts (4).

League Cup Winners - Hibs, Livingston, Aberdeen, St Mirren, Ross County, Kilmarnock. Most finals Hibs (3), Aberdeen (3) and Kilmarnock (3).

I think the point is we've had plenty of opportunities to make that record better.

[Irish_Steve]

Stop using great stats to back up your argument ;)

[allmodcons]

I think the point is we've had plenty of opportunities to make that record better.

I'm not doubting it, but expect every other club has the same story to tell (e.g. - Aberdeen, 1 cup win in 20 years).

[pollution]

It is not so much the stats that concern me, more the way we go down to ' lower ' clubs. I don't expect us to beat the obvious Rangers Celtic all the time

but it is the feckless attitude that the players show when playing against eg St Johnstone that upsets me.


Most of the players have the ability to play better so what is the problem, I wonder ?

[Dr What If?]

In the last 50 years we have amassed 3 league cups and a Scottish Cup, given the fan base we could potentially draw upon that is not a great return. Its not a big pool we play in but given we have the disproportionate giants of the OF, every bit of silverware is to be cherished. Chances don't come around every day....to have chucked 2 real opportunities of reaching winnable finals within a few months of each other really, really stings.

[h1bs4life]

The Scottish Cup Semi Final was bad . yesterday was indefensible . 3-0 from ******g St Johnstone.
We were the last team to win a cup before Celtic's dominance and we had a great chance to be the 1st ones after.
I think this years Scottish Cup will be cancelled due to the amount of no league , lower league team still in it .

[mcohibs]

What perspective are these stats meant to show?

7 finals and 5 lost.

Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away

[Pretty Boy]

In the last 50 years we have amassed 3 league cups and a Scottish Cup, given the fan base we could potentially draw upon that is not a great return. Its not a big pool we play in but given we have the disproportionate giants of the OF, every bit of silverware is to be cherished. Chances don't come around every day....to have chucked 2 real opportunities of reaching winnable finals within a few months of each other really, really stings.

I think you could make an argument that Hibs, Hearts and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have all under achieved over the years. Fans of all clubs could point to the ones that got away.

I think that's why semi final defeats to Ayr, St Johnstone or Falkirk and final defeats to Ross County (albeit they were the Premiership team at the time) and Livingston are so damaging and hurtful. Celtic and Rangers can almost afford to write the odd one off because the next trophy is never too far away. Rangers maybe less so after the last decade. Games like last night are the ones we really should be expecting to win. Hearts fans have their Airdrie, ICT, Motherwell and St Mirren defeats amongst others to reflect upon and Aberdeen have lost to St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Motherwell in semi finals in recent years. Of course you could probably list 10 semi finals and final Celtic and Rangers have lost without thinking but when 3 years without a trophy is a disaster that is quickly forgotten. When you have trophy gaps of 73 to 91 to 07 to 16 it becomes a far bigger deal.

[allmodcons]

What perspective are these stats meant to show?

7 finals and 5 lost.

Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away

I'm not looking for an argument the stats show that in the last 20 years our cup record is as good as any other club outside the old firm.

We are not the perennial losers some would have us believe. I'm not doubting our record could be better but it's still the best of the rest since 2000.

Who accepts failure as par for the course?

[allmodcons]

I think you could make an argument that Hibs, Hearts and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have all under achieved over the years. Fans of all clubs could point to the ones that got away.

I think that's why semi final defeats to Ayr, St Johnstone or Falkirk and final defeats to Ross County (albeit they were the Premiership team at the time) and Livingston are so damaging and hurtful. Celtic and Rangers can almost afford to write the odd one off because the next trophy is never too far away. Rangers maybe less so after the last decade. Games like last night are the ones we really should be expecting to win. Hearts fans have their Airdrie, ICT, Motherwell and St Mirren defeats amongst others to reflect upon and Aberdeen have lost to St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Motherwell in semi finals in recent years. Of course you could probably list 10 semi finals and final Celtic and Rangers have lost without thinking but when 3 years without a trophy is a disaster that is quickly forgotten. When you have trophy gaps of 73 to 91 to 07 to 16 it becomes a far bigger deal.

As always, a considered common sense response.

I get the hurt but we are no different to any other club outside the old firm In fact, the stats since 2000 say we have a better record than Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd (i.e. - the 3 Scottish clubs closest to Hibs in terms of size).

[Hibee Mac]

What perspective are these stats meant to show?

7 finals and 5 lost.

Cup final losses to Ross County, Livi. Semi final defeats to St Johnstone (shot at Livi in the final), Falkirk (shot at ICT in the final), Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Ayr, a championship Hearts

It's a ***** record for a club of our size and resources and we should be aiming for better instead of accepting failure as par for the course

Likely be years before we get a better shot at winning a trophy than what we've just thrown away

It's really hard to disagree with this when you lay that out.

Each and every one of those results were huge chances at adding to the trophy list. Imagine we'd converted 50% of the results above into cup wins? We'd be well on our way to making up for a sever lack of success in the past, instead we have fans of other clubs terming phrases like "hibsed it", embarrassing.

[Diclonius]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

[allmodcons]

It's really hard to disagree with this when you lay that out.

Each and every one of those results were huge chances at adding to the trophy list. Imagine we'd converted 50% of the results above into cup wins? We'd be well on our way to making up for a sever lack of success in the past, instead we have fans of other clubs terming phrases like "hibsed it", embarrassing.

Fans of other clubs who, since 2000, have a worse cup record than we do.

Some of our support is a joke at times, buying in to the narrative that we are somehow perennial losers.

The fact you felt the need to mention that term says you've bought in to 'their' narrative this despite the fact that their cup record since 2000 is worse than ours.

[allmodcons]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals.

[mcohibs]

I'm not looking for an argument the stats show that in the last 20 years our cup record is as good as any other club outside the old firm.

We are not the perennial losers some would have us believe. I'm not doubting our record could be better but it's still the best of the rest since 2000.

Who accepts failure as par for the course?

Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading

[Chorley Hibee]

Seriously, I chose the past 20 years because I thought that was 'recent' history.

What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals in the last century but, frankly, losing the 1958 SC Final to Clyde is not of much relevance to me.

The stats above are for the 21st century.

[Lancs Harp]

Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading

I get where you're coming from but our league cup semi final record is decent, up until yesterday when our record went negative we had won 10/20 league cup semi finals and have 4-1 win record against Rangers.

Just facts because im not defending we underachieve because for me we clearly do.

[Pretty Boy]

Seriously, I chose the past 20 years because I thought that was 'recent' history.

What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals in the last century but, frankly, losing the 1958 SC Final to Clyde is not of much relevance to me.

I think those stats are only from 2000 to present.

[allmodcons]

Not looking for one either mate I just don't think stats show us in a good light at all, quite the opposite. We've lost the most finals out of any club in that period. I dare say semi finals would be similar.

I don't see reaching semis or finals as a positive thing to compare against other clubs. It's the outcome of the games that is important and when you see the quality of opposition that we have lost to over those years, it makes for grim reading

If, in the period quoted, we are making more finals than any team outside the old firm, then it follows that we are winning more semi finals too.

The whole point of my opening post was to show that Hibs are no different to any other Club outside the old firm.

What pisses me off most when we lose a semi final or a final is the narrative (by a section of our own support) that we are perennial losers. If we are to be labelled perennial losers then the stats say that every other club outside of the old firm should carry that label too.

[allmodcons]

I think those stats are only from 2000 to present.

Thanks, my mistake.

[allmodcons]

The stats above are for the 21st century.

Duly noted :greengrin

[allmodcons]

Time for bed. These stats are too much for me.

[mcohibs]

What pisses me off most when we lose a semi final or a final is the narrative (by a section of our own support) that we are perennial losers. If we are to be labelled perennial losers then the stats say that every other club outside of the old firm should carry that label too.

When we throw away the chance of silverware to teams like Livingston, Ross County, Ayr, Dunfermline and St Johnstone it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all to know that we historically reach more finals than they do.

The perennial losers tag applies to big games. We are perennial losers in big games. Of that there is no doubt. The stats quoted in this thread (both yours and other posters) prove that. Don't get me started on our derby record... our losers/bottlers tag is deserved. That's the cold hard truth unfortunately

[Dr What If?]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

Interesting set of stats....another way of saying this is our success rate in SF is 41% and for Finals is 29%. Not a positive record I know but we do make it deep into a lot of competitions and you do expect success rates to fall as you meet the better teams. Its the non OF section though that paints the picture of why we are all so frustrated, each of those represents a real opportunity of silverware.....and some of those defeats (like yesterday) were horrific. Like I said earlier, we don't have a lot of titles in our long history - 10 really, thats all.....every opportunity should be grabbed with both hands, sadly these stats suggest we don't do that.

[Saturday Boy]

When we throw away the chance of silverware to teams like Livingston, Ross County, Ayr, Dunfermline and St Johnstone it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all to know that we historically reach more finals than they do.

The perennial losers tag applies to big games. We are perennial losers in big games. Of that there is no doubt. The stats quoted in this thread (both yours and other posters) prove that. Don't get me started on our derby record... our losers/bottlers tag is deserved. That's the cold hard truth unfortunately

Obviously forgetting that some of those clubs went bust, leaving unpaid creditors after beating us.

Scottish football is littered with clubs achieving cup success and then going bust.

It’s not a level playing field.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Obviously forgetting that some of those clubs went bust, leaving unpaid creditors after beating us.

Scottish football is littered with clubs achieving cup success and then going bust.

It’s not a level playing field.

were St J financially doped when they twatted us 3-0 last night? What about a lower division hearts team at Halloween? The money that pours into them now is from their fans. The not a level playing field argument, while true to an extent in the past, is becoming awfully hollow now.

I don’t expect us to constantly beat the old firm in cup games or otherwise. But what mcohibs said is factually correct. In big games, with some very lovely exceptions, Hibs will generally let you down.

[Andy74]

were St J financially doped when they twatted us 3-0 last night? What about a lower division hearts team at Halloween? The money that pours into them now is from their fans. The not a level playing field argument, while true to an extent in the past, is becoming awfully hollow now.

I don’t expect us to constantly beat the old firm in cup games or otherwise. But what mcohibs said is factually correct. In big games, with some very lovely exceptions, Hibs will generally let you down.

Unfortunately we aren’t far enough away from any of these teams to win them all.

We’ve beaten St Johnstone and Hearts I think the last couple of times each that I can remember playing them in the cups.

[Steve20]

What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals.

That means nothing if we keep messing them up.

That stat about losing 8 semi finals to non OF clubs is a disgrace. Our club needs to grow a backbone and stop crumbling at Hampden.

[Sir David Gray]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

Those bottom two stats are the ones that are really bad.

[Jones28]

What your stats say is that we have made it through to a lot of semi finals and finals.

They also say we aren't exactly outliers when it comes to loosing them.

I don't think we've ever actually played well at Hampden with the exception of the finals we won. There would be an argument for the Falkirk comeback game but we were so horrific in the first half I don't really know if we can count that.

[Stuart93]

I’m amazed that people count getting papped out of semi finals and finals as success for just getting there. Especially you get as easy a run as we did this season.

In years to come we aren’t going sit down and say “remember that time we got all the way to the semi final of the league cup”

***** attitude imo. There are absolutely no positives to take from our defeat on Saturday. None.

[Pagan Hibernia]

The fact we weren’t able to traipse over there to watch that pish is the only one I can think of

[Andy74]

I’m amazed that people count getting papped out of semi finals and finals as success for just getting there. Especially you get as easy a run as we did this season.

In years to come we aren’t going sit down and say “remember that time we got all the way to the semi final of the league cup”

***** attitude imo. There are absolutely no positives to take from our defeat on Saturday. None.

I think you might be misunderstanding the point about it being ‘success’.

We are discussing whether a manager should be sacked or not. To do that you have to assess overall the direction that the team is going.

Getting to semi finals is better than not getting to semi finals. Regularly getting to them is one sign that overall you are building a team that can compete in the competitions.

I don’t think when assessing the manager that any Hibs board is going to be sacking managers for being 4th, 6 points off 2nd place and having reached another semi final, regardless of the result of it.

[GreenCastle]

I know nobody likes a 'bit of perspective' when we are all hurting, but the narrative that we do much worse than other clubs in cup competitions does not seem to stack up. Over the last 20 years, the stats since the millennium, excluding the Old Firm who have been dominant for decades, read:-

Scottish Cup Winners - Hibs, Hearts (2), Dundee Utd, ICT and St Johnstone. Most finals Hibs (4) and Hearts (4).

League Cup Winners - Hibs, Livingston, Aberdeen, St Mirren, Ross County, Kilmarnock. Most finals Hibs (3), Aberdeen (3) and Kilmarnock (3).

It's very easy to make a point using selective stats.

Last 20 years? Does that mean what went before doesn't matter to the culture of our club?

To keep it in perspective... look at the history of Hibs and the trophies we have won / not won plus the missed opportunities for further success.

The perspective should be why are clubs with lower budgets and minimal resources outperforming us especially when the pressure is on (finals / play off games - Hamilton relegation for example).

[GreenCastle]

I think you might be misunderstanding the point about it being ‘success’.

We are discussing whether a manager should be sacked or not. To do that you have to assess overall the direction that the team is going.

Getting to semi finals is better than not getting to semi finals. Regularly getting to them is one sign that overall you are building a team that can compete in the competitions.

I don’t think when assessing the manager that any Hibs board is going to be sacking managers for being 4th, 6 points off 2nd place and having reached another semi final, regardless of the result of it.

Not really when our run to the semi final was very easy...Alloa away (part time team) , Dundee at home , Forfar (87th min goal), Cove (1 nil down) and Brora (All part time teams).

1st test against a half decent side under pressure and we fail miserably - not even 1v0....3v0 going on 5.

It's easy to look at the stats like the team is 4th but there is more depth to it than that - the team selections - style of play - mindset - lack of leadership - subs.

We 100% won't finish 3rd - We have lost to 3rd placed Aberdeen twice already - once last season - and currently the team below us have more chance of success than us - success being a trophy. We could finish 4th and get into Europe but I would rather be in a final with a chance of winning the cup than lose a game against some Lithuanian fisherman.

[The Green Sea]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)


Very interesting stats. Good that we're getting to Hampden but a really poor record once there.

In my lifetime supporting Hibs (1980's onwards) I've seen them win 3 trophies (same for Hearts) and that is a dire record for both teams. What will make it look even poorer is that either one of St Johnstone or Livingston will have won 2 trophies in the time period come the completion of the League Cup.

[lucky]

This century, most finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (5)
3. Celtic, Dundee Utd, Motherwell (4)
6. Dunfermline, Hearts, Rangers (3)
9. Falkirk, Kilmarnock (2)

This century, most semi finals lost:
1. Aberdeen, Hibs (10)
3. Dundee Utd (9)
4. Celtic, Hearts (8)
6. St Johnstone (7)
7. Rangers (5)
8. Falkirk, Inverness (4)
10. Ayr, Livingston, Motherwell, St Mirren (3)

This century, most finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (3 - only team to lose more than one)
2. Nine teams (1)

This century, most semi finals lost to teams other than Celtic or Rangers:
1. Hibs (8)
2. Aberdeen, Celtic (6)
4. Inverness, St Johnstone (4)

What these stats prove is we are serial losers in both semi finals and finals

[Hibee Mac]

Fans of other clubs who, since 2000, have a worse cup record than we do.

Some of our support is a joke at times, buying in to the narrative that we are somehow perennial losers.

The fact you felt the need to mention that term says you've bought in to 'their' narrative this despite the fact that their cup record since 2000 is worse than ours.Not buying into any narrative mate, just looking at the facts laid out in this thread, most finals and semi finals lost this century? Hibs top it. Most finals and semi finals lost against lower teams? Hibs top it again.

Yes we get to more semi's and finals than others around us, but we have the same or fewer trophies to show for it. That shows we have a poor conversion rate.

[Jones28]

Not buying into any narrative mate, just looking at the facts laid out in this thread, most finals and semi finals lost this century? Hibs top it. Most finals and semi finals lost against lower teams? Hibs top it again.

Yes we get to more semi's and finals than others around us, but we have the same or fewer trophies to show for it. That shows we have a poor conversion rate.

So its better to go out in the first round than lose a semi final?

[allmodcons]

I’m amazed that people count getting papped out of semi finals and finals as success for just getting there. Especially you get as easy a run as we did this season.

In years to come we aren’t going sit down and say “remember that time we got all the way to the semi final of the league cup”

***** attitude imo. There are absolutely no positives to take from our defeat on Saturday. None.

You really can't help yourself. You're beginning to make Hermit Crab look positive!

The thread isn't about taking positives from the St Johnstone defeat it's about getting a bit of perspective on things.

Whilst it may not be a very good record, in the last 20 years our record of success in terms of winning trophies and reaching finals (i.e. - winning semi finals) is better than any other Club outside of the old firm. That's a fact.

[Hibee Mac]

So its better to go out in the first round than lose a semi final?That wasn't my point at all? I said we have a poor conversion rate, i.e. when we reach semi finals and finals we don't turn that into finals and wins at the same rate as others around us it would seem.

That is a completely different point to saying that it would be better to just not reach semi's and finals at all.

A better example would be is it better to reach fewer semi's and finals if it meant we won more trophies when we reached the final? Absolutely. No one remembers 2nd 3rd 4th

[Magpie]

What these stats prove is we are serial losers in both semi finals and finals

Bottle jobs basically

[Since452]

However way you want to look at it, Hibs are the most successful Edinburgh club in terms of trophies over the last half a century. More successful than Aberdeen over the last 30 years. Clubs who regularly have a bigger budget.

[Stuart93]

You really can't help yourself. You're beginning to make Hermit Crab look positive!

The thread isn't about taking positives from the St Johnstone defeat it's about getting a bit of perspective on things.

Whilst it may not be a very good record, in the last 20 years our record of success in terms of winning trophies and reaching finals (i.e. - winning semi finals) is better than any other Club outside of the old firm. That's a fact.

I don’t really give a **** what our records been over the past 20 years? We’ve had countless opportunities to improve that record and add a couple more trophies and have blown it. Like we did on Saturday night.

You can hang on tightly to your comfort blanket of how successful we’ve been compared to other teams but imo we’ve had great opportunities to be even more successful than we have been.

[Jones28]

That wasn't my point at all? I said we have a poor conversion rate, i.e. when we reach semi finals and finals we don't turn that into finals and wins at the same rate as others around us it would seem.

That is a completely different point to saying that it would be better to just not reach semi's and finals at all.

A better example would be is it better to reach fewer semi's and finals if it meant we won more trophies when we reached the final? Absolutely. No one remembers 2nd 3rd 4th

You're right, I was being facetious.

I would love to win more trophies, but the fact we are getting in to these positions should not be used against us. Semi finals are not bad. Losing them is *****, but overall if you said semi finals and a third placed finish that would be regarded as a good season.

[allmodcons]

I don’t really give a **** what our records been over the past 20 years? We’ve had countless opportunities to improve that record and add a couple more trophies and have blown it. Like we did on Saturday night.

You can hang on tightly to your comfort blanket of how successful we’ve been compared to other teams but imo we’ve had great opportunities to be even more successful than we have been.

You really are one angry wee keyboard warrior :rolleyes:

Do you think by shouting loudest you are hurting the most?

[hibbydog]

So its better to go out in the first round than lose a semi final?

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,

[GreenCastle]

You really are one angry wee keyboard warrior :rolleyes:

Do you think by shouting loudest you are hurting the most?

To be fair the poster has a point.

Fans accepting failure is one of the reasons we keep having same outcomes.

Whole club needs a reality check and raise expectation levels.

No coincidence we keep being let down when it matters.

[GreenCastle]

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,

Add how many games we were favourites to win...quite a few upsets and poor performances.

Not just losses but games when we have been destroyed.

[Jones28]

To be fair the poster has a point.

Fans accepting failure is one of the reasons we keep having same outcomes.

Whole club needs a reality check and raise expectation levels.

No coincidence we keep being let down when it matters.

Can you enlighten us as to what not accepting these results looks like?

Should we type out our messages in capitals?

[Stuart93]

You really are one angry wee keyboard warrior :rolleyes:

Do you think by shouting loudest you are hurting the most?

Angry? Who’s angry? Nor am I trying to shout the loudest?

What a strange post. A keyboard warrior is someone who’d be berating you and personally attacking you no?

All I’m doing is giving my opinion which obviously differs from yours but in no way am I a keyboard warrior who’s trying to shout the loudest.

Are you going to direct that towards everyone else who doesn’t agree with you?

[Diclonius]

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,

You missed the Ross County game and one of the Celtic semis too. I've highlighted games which were at the time against a team below us in the league:
2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Ross County L, Dundee Utd W, Rangers W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Celtic L
2020 Hearts L, St Johnstone L

Of the nine ties we've had against teams below us in the league, we've won two. That's atrocious.

[Jones28]

Add how many games we were favourites to win...quite a few upsets and poor performances.

Not just losses but games when we have been destroyed.

Hearts and Celtic finals and Hearts semi finals and Saturdays game are the only game we've lost where we've been "destroyed", and the St Johnston game was the only game in which we were favourites. The other losses were poor but in the main we didn't deserve to lose them.

[Peevemor]

Can you enlighten us as to what not accepting these results looks like?

Should we type out our messages in capitals?

:hilarious

[allmodcons]

To be fair the poster has a point.

Fans accepting failure is one of the reasons we keep having same outcomes.

Whole club needs a reality check and raise expectation levels.

No coincidence we keep being let down when it matters.

That's just nonsense. Who are you suggesting is accepting of failure?

There are too many on these boards who shout loud and moan a lot because they think it somehow shows they care more.

Reminds me of the footballer who spends most of the match moaning at his team mates but can't see (or is not willing to accept) that he is having a mare too.

[stantonhibby]

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,

They're the good times.....we rarely even made it to Hampden the 20yrs previous to that😁

[allmodcons]

Angry? Who’s angry? Nor am I trying to shout the loudest?

What a strange post. A keyboard warrior is someone who’d be berating you and personally attacking you no?

All I’m doing is giving my opinion which obviously differs from yours but in no way am I a keyboard warrior who’s trying to shout the loudest.

Are you going to direct that towards everyone else who doesn’t agree with you?

No not all. Just the angry ones.

[allmodcons]

Can you enlighten us as to what not accepting these results looks like?

Should we type out our messages in capitals?

:greengrin

[Stuart93]

No not all. Just the angry ones.

You’ve made yourself out to look quite silly here

Well in 👍🏼

[Hibee Mac]

You're right, I was being facetious.

I would love to win more trophies, but the fact we are getting in to these positions should not be used against us. Semi finals are not bad. Losing them is *****, but overall if you said semi finals and a third placed finish that would be regarded as a good season.


You're right, I was being facetious.

I would love to win more trophies, but the fact we are getting in to these positions should not be used against us. Semi finals are not bad. Losing them is *****, but overall if you said semi finals and a third placed finish that would be regarded as a good season.

That's being very selective. Run to the semi was a cake walk and the semi was one of the best chances we will have in our lifetimes to lift a trophy and we were pumped off St Johnstone. Plus we're hardly on track to make 3rd right now, at this rate we'll be lucky to hand onto 4th (with no Hearts in the league).

[Jones28]

That's being very selective. Run to the semi was a cake walk and the semi was one of the best chances we will have in our lifetimes to lift a trophy and we were pumped off St Johnstone. Plus we're hardly on track to make 3rd right now, at this rate we'll be lucky to hand onto 4th (with no Hearts in the league).

Selective how?

[The Green Sea]

They're the good times.....we rarely even made it to Hampden the 20yrs previous to that��

Scary but so true. In my early Hibs supporting days (1980s) Hampden was somewhere other teams went.

[Keith_M]

Some more stats for you....


In 2016, we amassed our 10th major trophy, 141 years after the club was formed.

We now stand equal 5th in the number of major trophies won.... alongside Queens Park, who last won the Scottish Cup in 1893.

Aberdeen are in 3rd place with 19 and Hearts in 4th, with 16.

Celtic are in 2nd place, with 111 trophies.



Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs have ALL underachieved... going by populations of the city in which they're located and the potential support....but Hibs are easily the biggest underachievers of the three.





Isn't it great to be a Hi-Bee

:wink:

[h1bs4life]

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,


Bar Hearts and St Johnstone where I would have been if crowds were allowed I have been at everyone of these and more before and it is soul destroying travelling back from Hampden after yet another defeat that you wish you had been knocked out in the 1st round.
Thought 2016 would have been a change for the club but the record since is woeful , how do you change who knows but the last 2 despite probably having better players the teams that wanted it more , more desire and up for the challenge unfortunately won .

[Hibee Mac]

Selective how?Saying this season a semi final and 3rd place would be considered a good season.

Yes if we had a normal run to a semi and a full strength league it would be, but you're being selective in what you look at. We have a depleted league with no Hearts and the easiest run to a Semi we could have hoped for. That's nothing to celebrate.

If we hadn't made the semi with that run in it would be shocking, and we're hardly on track for 3rd are we? Anything less than 4th this year given the league would be sacking material for our manager.

[Jones28]

Saying this season a semi final and 3rd place would be considered a good season.

Yes if we had a normal run to a semi and a full strength league it would be, but you're being selective in what you look at. We have a depleted league with no Hearts and the easiest run to a Semi we could have hoped for. That's nothing to celebrate.

If we hadn't made the semi with that run in it would be shocking, and we're hardly on track for 3rd are we? Anything less than 4th this year given the league would be sacking material for our manager.

Mines was a more general observation that finishing 3rd and getting to the semi finals of a cup would be a decent season, regardless of who you play.

It would be ****ing mental to sack JR after giving him the (IMO entirely justified) financial backing this summer and now in January. He'll have had 1 full season, in which we've had good and bad spells and 2 semi-finals in that time, all the while viewing football through the contorted lens of a global pandemic.

[Keith_M]

Mines was a more general observation that finishing 3rd and getting to the semi finals of a cup would be a decent season, regardless of who you play.

It would be ****ing mental to sack JR after giving him the (IMO entirely justified) financial backing this summer and now in January. He'll have had 1 full season, in which we've had good and bad spells and 2 semi-finals in that time, all the while viewing football through the contorted lens of a global pandemic.


I think that's a really good point. He has to be given a chance to manage Hibs in a half normal situation before he can really be judged by how good or bad a manager he is.

Some of the non-Hibs games, and results, this season have been quite frankly weird.

[Allez Hibs]

Mines was a more general observation that finishing 3rd and getting to the semi finals of a cup would be a decent season, regardless of who you play.

It would be ****ing mental to sack JR after giving him the (IMO entirely justified) financial backing this summer and now in January. He'll have had 1 full season, in which we've had good and bad spells and 2 semi-finals in that time, all the while viewing football through the contorted lens of a global pandemic.

Reaching the last two semi finals shouldn't be seen as some sort of achievement.

[Hibee Mac]

Mines was a more general observation that finishing 3rd and getting to the semi finals of a cup would be a decent season, regardless of who you play.

It would be ****ing mental to sack JR after giving him the (IMO entirely justified) financial backing this summer and now in January. He'll have had 1 full season, in which we've had good and bad spells and 2 semi-finals in that time, all the while viewing football through the contorted lens of a global pandemic.

For the record, I don't think we should sack him either. I think he will manage to keep us in 4th this season and he deserves to continue building a squad.

That being said, if we finish in 4th as expected and barring us doing something in the SC this year it will be about as bog standard a season as they come considering the relative strength of the league and the run we had to the semi. Nothing to hail as successful, but by the same token nothing worth sacking the manager for.

If he does manage to get us to 3rd then yes I'd say a pretty good season, but one which could and should have been much more given the hand we were dealt in the league cup draw. That being said, we're not on track for 3rd right now.

[Gordy M]

Reaching the last two semi finals shouldn't be seen as some sort of achievement.

Just as a matter of interest, what would see as a successful season for Hibs as far and league placings and cups go?

[Jones28]

I think that's a really good point. He has to be given a chance to manage Hibs in a half normal situation before he can really be judged by how good or bad a manager he is.

Some of the non-Hibs games, and results, this season have been quite frankly weird.

Exactly. Anyone remember the time Aston Villa scored 7 at VILLA PARK?

[Jones28]

Reaching the last two semi finals shouldn't be seen as some sort of achievement.

Tbh I'm not wanting to engage mate because going by some of your other posts dotted around the forum you're a lost cause.

[Lancs Harp]

Exactly. Anyone remember the time Aston Villa scored 7 at Anfield?

You might want to edit that fella. :wink:

[Jones28]

For the record, I don't think we should sack him either. I think he will manage to keep us in 4th this season and he deserves to continue building a squad.

That being said, if we finish in 4th as expected and barring us doing something in the SC this year it will be about as bog standard a season as they come considering the relative strength of the league and the run we had to the semi. Nothing to hail as successful, but by the same token nothing worth sacking the manager for.

If he does manage to get us to 3rd then yes I'd say a pretty good season, but one which could and should have been much more given the hand we were dealt in the league cup draw. That being said, we're not on track for 3rd right now.

Is a bog standard season in the grand scheme things such a bad thing though?

If you'd said to me this time last year that football (and almost every other activity that you enjoy partaking in) is going to turn ****ing weird over the next year; no supporters will be allowed to go to games; budgets will need to be curtailed and football will frequently teeter on the precipice of being shut down altogether, then I probably would have taken an above average league finish and 2 semi finals plus the possibility of another Scottish cup run.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but frankly I'm just happy that we are one of the clubs robust enough to survive this mess, I would take 8th and getting knocked out of the Scottish cup by Boness Utd if it means having a club here next season. FWIW I think we will finish minimum 4th and get a good run in the cup, the above example is extreme but you get the point.

[Jones28]

You might want to edit that fella. :wink:

As requested :aok:

[Lancs Harp]

As requested :aok:

It was at Villa Park mate.:greengrin

[Jones28]

It was at Villa Park mate.:greengrin

Was it? :faf:

[hibstag]

I think you could make an argument that Hibs, Hearts and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have all under achieved over the years. Fans of all clubs could point to the ones that got away.

I think that's why semi final defeats to Ayr, St Johnstone or Falkirk and final defeats to Ross County (albeit they were the Premiership team at the time) and Livingston are so damaging and hurtful. Celtic and Rangers can almost afford to write the odd one off because the next trophy is never too far away. Rangers maybe less so after the last decade. Games like last night are the ones we really should be expecting to win. Hearts fans have their Airdrie, ICT, Motherwell and St Mirren defeats amongst others to reflect upon and Aberdeen have lost to St Johnstone, Dundee Utd and Motherwell in semi finals in recent years. Of course you could probably list 10 semi finals and final Celtic and Rangers have lost without thinking but when 3 years without a trophy is a disaster that is quickly forgotten. When you have trophy gaps of 73 to 91 to 07 to 16 it becomes a far bigger deal.

A great post it is this in a nutshell, the argument over being the 'third best/biggest team in Scotland' is like baldies arguing over who owns the comb. we have all underachieved/blown it.

[hibstag]

You missed the Ross County game and one of the Celtic semis too. I've highlighted games which were at the time against a team below us in the league:
2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Ross County L, Dundee Utd W, Rangers W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Celtic L
2020 Hearts L, St Johnstone L

Of the nine ties we've had against teams below us in the league, we've won two. That's atrocious.

I think Livingston finished above us that year and may have been living out with their means and we had quite a young team.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Reaching the last two semi finals shouldn't be seen as some sort of achievement.

Reaching semi-finals is a great achievement. Obviously it's really disappointing to lose them when we had a chance to get through to the finals in both of them, but that shouldn't diminish the achievement.

I don't remember being in many semi finals during the later Turnbull, Ormond, Auld, Stanton, Blackley years - Hampden was a different country when I started going to Easter Road.

Keep the faith - I just hope that it won't be another 116 year wait.................

[Logie Green]

Reaching semi-finals is a great achievement. Obviously it's really disappointing to lose them when we had a chance to get through to the finals in both of them, but that shouldn't diminish the achievement.

I don't remember being in many semi finals during the later Turnbull, Ormond, Auld, Stanton, Blackley years - Hampden was a different country when I started going to Easter Road.

Keep the faith - I just hope that it won't be another 116 year wait.................

I wouldn’t describe it as a great achievement unless you’ve knocked ‘bigger’ teams out to get there. I take your point re those managers who failed though.

PS it was ‘only’ 114 years. 😜

[Sammy7nil]

In fairly recent years Hibs have lost 3 times at Hampden to Hearts all of them humiliating defeats for one reason or another.

I have attend Hampden defeats to D Utd, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Livingston, Ross County, Ayr Utd and now seen a loss to St Johnstone.

Yes I have seen wins against Rangers and Aberdeen but also losses to them and Celtic. Many of those defeats woeful lie down performances without ever threatening to even score a goal.

No one will convince me regardless of personal over several years Hibs have under performed big time and continue to do so.

[Alfred E Newman]

I must say, tongue in cheek, that's how I felt on Saturday. If Hibs were consistently *****e, I'd know where I stood. But the showing of much potential and getting to the latter stages against smaller clubs we should be steamrollering, then getting kicked in the nuts time and time again, is painful

Here's our 21st Century record at Hampden

2000 Aberdeen L
2001 Livingston W, Celtic L
2002 Ayr Utd L
2004 Rangers W Livingston L
2005 Dundee Utd L
2006 Hearts L
2007 Kilmarnock W, Dunfermline D, Dunfermline L
2012 Aberdeen W, Hearts L
2013 Falkirk W, Celtic L
2015 Falkirk L
2016 Dundee Utd W, Sevco W
2017 Aberdeen L
2018 Celtic L
2019 Hearts L
2020 St Johnstone L

So that's 5/22. Or a 77% chance we wont win.

Awful stuff. After many of the above I'd much rather have been pumped out in the first round,

Hibs have been in 9 Scottish Cup Finals in my lifetime( 3 in 1979) and I've been at 8 and seen then won once.
Goals for 7 against 23!

[NAE NOOKIE]

So basically because all the other clubs have records as bad, or nearly as bad, as us that's our warm fuzzy place.

Sorry, but I attended my first final in 1979 and in that time we have been to a total of 11 cup finals including that one and have won a miserly 3 of them. The whole point is surely not finding stats or reasons to make us all feel better about that, but hoping if not demanding the club do better going forward, there are no stats or comparisons that will make me feel better about our poor record in competitions.

Forget about winning division 2 or the championship that's making up for failure, not a measure of success for a club like Hibs. In our 145 year history we have won 10 major trophies, or 1 every 14.5 years. Since my first game in 1975 we have won 3 or 1 every 15 years. We are one of the top 5 clubs in a system where after the top 6 clubs the rest fall away dramatically in fan base and resources.

So I don't care about other club's records, I look at where Hibs are placed in the firmament of Scottish football vis a vis resources and support and fail to see any defence of a record of 4 trophies in the near 61 years I've been on the planet and 3 of them the country's 3rd most important one.

For perspective: If Livingston beat St Johnston next month Ferranti Thistle will have won only one less major trophy than Hibs since my first game 45 years ago. Hibs underachieve massively and if we aren't angry about that we bloody well should be, especially when that underachievement is punctuated all too often by utter dross like Saturday.

[Stuart93]

So basically because all the other clubs have records as bad, or nearly as bad, as us that's our warm fuzzy place.

Sorry, but I attended my first final in 1979 and in that time we have been to a total of 11 cup finals including that one and have won a miserly 3 of them. The whole point is surely not finding stats or reasons to make us all feel better about that, but hoping if not demanding the club do better going forward, there are no stats or comparisons that will make me feel better about our poor record in competitions.

Forget about winning division 2 or the championship that's making up for failure, not a measure of success for a club like Hibs. In our 145 year history we have won 10 major trophies, or 1 every 14.5 years. Since my first game in 1975 we have won 3 or 1 every 15 years. We are one of the top 5 clubs in a system where after the top 6 clubs the rest fall away dramatically in fan base and resources.

So I don't care about other club's records, I look at where Hibs are placed in the firmament of Scottish football vis a vis resources and support and fail to see any defence of a record of 4 trophies in the near 61 years I've been on the planet and 3 of them the country's 3rd most important one.

For perspective: If Livingston beat St Johnston next month Ferranti Thistle will have won only one less major trophy than Hibs since my first game 45 years ago. Hibs underachieve massively and if we aren't angry about that we bloody well should be, especially when that underachievement is punctuated all too often by utter dross like Saturday.

No we shouldn’t be angry because other teams are bad as well you know...