Debt to Society

[wookie70]

I was reading the thread on Livingstone on the main forum and particularly about their manager David Martindale. It is a very interesting debate and one perhaps more suited to the Holy Ground. My opinion is that he has paid his debt for the crimes he committed and is now doing a job which is actually starting to contribute to the community. He has a long relationship with football and has worked his way up from managers positions in junior teams etc. He also started his Livingstone journey as a volunteer and made steps up the ladder there based on his work not his past. To me it is a good news story and I find it difficult to believe he has to face a fit and proper examination given some of the owners that have been involved at some of the clubs.

I would be happy for Hibs to engage with ex-offenders and be very proud if we managed to help an ex-offender go from a volunteer to a hugely successful manager.

[danhibees1875]

I think I'd broadly agree. There's maybe an argument over whether sentences are always appropriate to start with but that aside I think you need to have, and believe in, an effective rehabilitation programme for a fully functioning society. For that to work you need to allow ex-offenders to lead normal lives once they've completed their sentence.

It's not that easy in practice though.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was reading the thread on Livingstone on the main forum and particularly about their manager David Martindale. It is a very interesting debate and one perhaps more suited to the Holy Ground. My opinion is that he has paid his debt for the crimes he committed and is now doing a job which is actually starting to contribute to the community. He has a long relationship with football and has worked his way up from managers positions in junior teams etc. He also started his Livingstone journey as a volunteer and made steps up the ladder there based on his work not his past. To me it is a good news story and I find it difficult to believe he has to face a fit and proper examination given some of the owners that have been involved at some of the clubs.

I would be happy for Hibs to engage with ex-offenders and be very proud if we managed to help an ex-offender go from a volunteer to a hugely successful manager.

:agree: Anyone who can atone for their crimes and move on from that afterwards is a success story, regardless if they are working a shift in a factory or managing a Premiership football team.

[wookie70]

I think I'd broadly agree. There's maybe an argument over whether sentences are always appropriate to start with but that aside I think you need to have, and believe in, an effective rehabilitation programme for a fully functioning society. For that to work you need to allow ex-offenders to lead normal lives once they've completed their sentence.

It's not that easy in practice though.

I agree about the sentencing and particularly some of the large sentences for crimes against property compared to very short sentences for crimes against citizens. I would also want to see the reduction of sentence being far more based on prisoners working on what they will do when released. Gaining skills, building relationships in the community and educating themselves either scholastically or with practical tasks are the types of building blocks I would want and time off attributed to each block they complete.

Saying all that I have never been the victim of any serious crime so it may be very different for those that may have had life changing events caused by those who go on to be jailed.

The only thing I am certain of is that prison should be more about changing someone's journey rather than making sure they have no journey to make.

[Pretty Boy]

The purpose of any prison sentence should always be about balancing punishment with rehabilitation. Lock them up and feed them bread and water might work to satisfy a lust for revenge but that alone is unlikely to help someone move on from crime after their release.

Martindale has served the punishment part of his sentence and it would appear has emerged rehabilitated and able to contribute to society. I accept that may not atone entirely for things he has done which have directly and indirectly hurt people but would denying him meaningful employment do that?

His is a positive story and should be proof to those stuck in a cycle of crime that it is possible to rebuild your life and people will give you a chance.

[Billy Whizz]

He put his hands up and said he was guilty
Every interview I’ve heard from him, says he got what he deserved, and has never backed down from his guilt
He’s served his sentence, and really should be allowed to manage Livingston
This after all happened in 2004

[Jones28]

Lets just say Ross were to leave and Hibs went to try and bring him in, would you be happy with it?

I will caveat that I don't know how I'd feel. I sometimes think that certain crimes might preclude you from certain jobs.

[wookie70]

Lets just say Ross were to leave and Hibs went to try and bring him in, would you be happy with it?

I will caveat that I don't know how I'd feel. I sometimes think that certain crimes might preclude you from certain jobs.

I would only be bothered with his relatively short tenure as manager. I wouldn't be overly fussed with his past and may even view the journey he has made as a sign of his drive and determination.

[Sylar]

Not a major response to the OP but it’s Livingston(-e). It amazes me how many butchered ways i see the place or club nicknames spelled.

He’s served his time. I know his crime was the trafficking of class A narcotics and he now works with minors in their development but given the time that’s elapsed, he’s more than been punished. Our family still have a fair bit of involvement with the club and the man has broken his back to get back to working in an area he’s put so much time into. I was skeptical when i first heard of his past, but that came from a former press communications person and eventual sports journalist who had an axe to grind...it was very skewed towards pointing out his failings.

Plenty of players are allowed to play the game with questionable pasts, who are deemed to be rehabilitated. Same should apply to coaches and managers.

[Keith_M]

If somebody has served their time and shown remorse for what they've done, then it's up to the potential employer as to whether or not they're right for the job.

The guy seems genuinely remorseful and admitted (on many occasions) that what he did was wrong, so my opinion is to give the guy a chance.

[speedy_gonzales]

I find his honesty to his past refreshing, and is a redeeming character trait.
When interviewed on Radio recently, the interviewer (maybe Tom English) raised the issue about his past and how he fell in to a bad crowd. Martindale stopped him and said no, he was the bad crowd!
Taking responsibility for ones own actions is a sure fire way in getting respect from those around you and Martindale certainly does not play the victim card to circumstances he created.

[McD]

I think a lot depends on the crime and how it’s perceived by the public in general and by fans


football is already quite tolerant of things such as drink driving, albeit that tolerance has limits as the English goalkeeper who caused a fatal accident has experienced. Joey Barton, while disliked by many, has been employed by several clubs after his cigar in a person’s eye incident.

conversely, ched evans is universally disliked and many fans of many clubs appear to have little tolerance for him (this also despite him being legally cleared of the crime). Adam Johnston was similar iirc.


I’m not saying I agree or disagree with differences in how these situations are perceived, just that there is a broad variance depending on the crime committed.

[Pretty Boy]

Lets just say Ross were to leave and Hibs went to try and bring him in, would you be happy with it?

I will caveat that I don't know how I'd feel. I sometimes think that certain crimes might preclude you from certain jobs.

I think there are now pretty good safeguards in place that cover what jobs people with certain convictions can't do.

Someone with a sexual offence on their record will almost never be allowed to work with vulnerable adults or children. Likewise someone convicted for fraud is highly unlikely to be employed by a bank even if their conviction is long spent.

I'm not sure if Martindale will have been required to enrol on the PVG scheme, if he has worked with youth players in the past then I would assume he would. If he has then they have obviously felt his past doesn't prevent him working with certain groups.

[Pretty Boy]

I think a lot depends on the crime and how it’s perceived by the public in general and by fans


football is already quite tolerant of things such as drink driving, albeit that tolerance has limits as the English goalkeeper who caused a fatal accident has experienced. Joey Barton, while disliked by many, has been employed by several clubs after his cigar in a person’s eye incident.

conversely, ched evans is universally disliked and many fans of many clubs appear to have little tolerance for him (this also despite him being legally cleared of the crime). Adam Johnston was similar iirc.


I’m not saying I agree or disagree with differences in how these situations are perceived, just that there is a broad variance depending on the crime committed.

I don't think football is massively dissimilar to the rest of society in that sense.

I'd probably be quite willing to continue to work with someone who had been done for drink driving (within limits), shoplifting and various other crimes.

I'd be far more uncomfortable working or engaging with someone who had groomed and engaged in sexual activity with a minor or been convicted of rape (I know Evans was cleared at retrial but you get the point).

I'd accept there is arguably a level of hypocrisy in my viewpoint. I certainly wouldn't deny people convicted of such crimes their chance at rehabilitation and the right to work but I wouldn't necessarily want to be a part of it.

[Smartie]

I think it depends a great deal on the attitude shown.

Martindale appears to have shown remorse and taken full responsibility for his actions. That is rehabilitation, and I would offer far more opportunity to someone like that than someone who makes excuses, victim blames or makes those crass non-apologies that now appear to be a thing.

There are exceptions, obviously, but I don't see why someone who committed the crimes that Martindale did should be prevented from rehabilitating through the line of work he has, as it appears that there is little potential for anyone to be harmed by it.

[lapsedhibee]

That is rehabilitation, and I would offer far more opportunity to someone like that than someone who makes excuses, victim blames or makes those crass non-apologies that now appear to be a thing.

"I'm sorry if anyone feels that I supplied them cocaine."

[Billy Whizz]

I think it depends a great deal on the attitude shown.

Martindale appears to have shown remorse and taken full responsibility for his actions. That is rehabilitation, and I would offer far more opportunity to someone like that than someone who makes excuses, victim blames or makes those crass non-apologies that now appear to be a thing.

There are exceptions, obviously, but I don't see why someone who committed the crimes that Martindale did should be prevented from rehabilitating through the line of work he has, as it appears that there is little potential for anyone to be harmed by it.

Sums it up greatly for me Smartie

[hibsbollah]

I think it depends a great deal on the attitude shown.

Martindale appears to have shown remorse and taken full responsibility for his actions. That is rehabilitation, and I would offer far more opportunity to someone like that than someone who makes excuses, victim blames or makes those crass non-apologies that now appear to be a thing.

There are exceptions, obviously, but I don't see why someone who committed the crimes that Martindale did should be prevented from rehabilitating through the line of work he has, as it appears that there is little potential for anyone to be harmed by it.

Indeed, good post. I’d go even further and say without the prospect of this kind of complete rehabilitation, the justice system falls flat on its arse. Even debating whether he ‘deserves another chance’, misses the point. He inarguably does, by law and also by morality. He’s served his time and the story is now written. Get on with the rest of your life.

[Sir David Gray]

I think it depends very much on the type of crime which has been committed and whether the person has taken responsibility and shown remorse for their crimes.

I think crimes such as domestic abuse, murder, rape and paedophilia are beyond the pale and no amount of remorse would make me want to have any association with such a person. Good luck to them if they find employment but I wouldn't want them employed at Hibs for example nor would I consider that person to be a friend.

With regards to Martindale, drug dealing is clearly a very serious offence and deserves to be punished as it can have a major impact on many people. However I'd say it's one of those offences where I would probably be happy to give a second chance to the offender as long as they had taken responsibility for their actions and shown genuine remorse - I believe he has done that.

He's grabbed his opportunity and seems highly unlikely to reoffend so good luck to him.