Council Tax 2021/22 - increase %’s?

[H18 SFR]

Trying to find out the council tax increases for this year, I can’t find anything? Has there been any announcements from the local authorities re rises?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Trying to find out the council tax increases for this year, I can’t find anything? Has there been any announcements from the local authorities re rises?

Usually follows the Scottish government budget - due to be published at end of the month. (Delayed due to Westminster postponing the autumn budget).

Would be good to see reform of council tax with something more progressive and fair in Holyrood manifestos.

[Pretty Boy]

Usually follows the Scottish government budget - due to be published at end of the month. (Delayed due to Westminster postponing the autumn budget).

Would be good to see reform of council tax with something more progressive and fair in Holyrood manifestos.

We were promised council tax reform was a key priority in 2007, I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you.

We did get a populist freeze that disproportionately benefited the wealthy though.

[GlesgaeHibby]

We were promised council tax reform was a key priority in 2007, I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were you.

We did get a populist freeze that disproportionately benefited the wealthy though.

I'm not holding my breath - and I'm still disappointed about that. I think one of the issues is that it's easier to tax a property as it can't be hidden in the way income can. There's no reason a fairer property based tax can't be introduced other than purely political reasons, as there will be winners and losers. Maintaining a system based on drive by valuations of property from 1991 surely isn't sustainable for much longer.

[The_Exile]

I live in a wee one bedroom flat and I pay the same council tax as the big 3 bedroom houses literally round the corner, it's ****ing obscene.

[Skol]

Usually follows the Scottish government budget - due to be published at end of the month. (Delayed due to Westminster postponing the autumn budget).

Would be good to see reform of council tax with something more progressive and fair in Holyrood manifestos.

What would a more progressive and fair tax look like ?

[Skol]

I live in a wee one bedroom flat and I pay the same council tax as the big 3 bedroom houses literally round the corner, it's ****ing obscene.

Given that Council Tax is based on value of property I would be very surprised if this is correct

[GlesgaeHibby]

What would a more progressive and fair tax look like ?

One where everyone pays their fair share. For example, if somebody was in a Band A property worth £100k, and somebody in a £1m pound Band H house. The £1m pound house is worth 10x more, but they only pay around 3 or 4 times as much council tax.

You could look at charging 1% of the property value on an annual basis, for example.

[marinello59]

Usually follows the Scottish government budget - due to be published at end of the month. (Delayed due to Westminster postponing the autumn budget).

Would be good to see reform of council tax with something more progressive and fair in Holyrood manifestos.

Remember this?

24227

I reckon this was the inspiration for Boris’ Brexit bus lie, if you are going to tell one make it a big one.:greengrin
I wouldn’t be looking to the SNP to reform Council Tax. They had their chance as a majority Government in 2011 but kicked it in to the long grass of a review instead before quietly dropping the idea years later. They did go for a Tory style freeze though which seemed a much easier choice for them to make.

[Allant1981]

I live in a wee one bedroom flat and I pay the same council tax as the big 3 bedroom houses literally round the corner, it's ****ing obscene.

How does that work? It's based on the value of the house years ago, can't see how a 1 bed flat would be valued at the same as a 3 bed, I'd be asking questions

[GlesgaeHibby]

Remember this?

24227

I reckon this was the inspiration for Boris’ Brexit bus lie, if you are going to tell one make it a big one.:greengrin
I wouldn’t be looking to the SNP to reform Council Tax. They had their chance as a majority Government in 2011 but kicked it in to the long grass of a review instead before quietly dropping the idea years later. They did go for a Tory style freeze though which seemed a much easier choice for them to make.

Remember it well.

The optimist in me hopes that, post-pandemic, politicians may be brave and try and do some things differently to build a fairer society. I'm thinking about the positives of the NHS creation and house building boom post WWII as an example of big changes after a major once in a lifetime event such as a war or pandemic.

The realist in me is fully aware I'll probably be left holding my breath.

[speedy_gonzales]

One where everyone pays their fair share. For example, if somebody was in a Band A property worth £100k, and somebody in a £1m pound Band H house. The £1m pound house is worth 10x more, but they only pay around 3 or 4 times as much council tax.

You could look at charging 1% of the property value on an annual basis, for example.

This has been raised before, but who is everyone and what is their fair share? You could quite easily have the situation where an elderly couple could have a 2 bed tenement flat valued as the same as a 4 bed house, purely because of its location within the city. The 4 bed could easily have 4 wage earning adults, and they pay the same CT as the older couple.
Where I live, there's a 3 bed house with an older couple that have 3 grown up kids, gross wage is around £140K.
Next door, same house but just a couple with a gross wage of around £45K.
I don't have an answer to the issue, just highlighting the disparity.

[The_Exile]

How does that work? It's based on the value of the house years ago, can't see how a 1 bed flat would be valued at the same as a 3 bed, I'd be asking questions

I've had it out with the council and it's apparently correct, I'm a band C and the 3 bedroom houses round the corner are also band C. I know this because I used to live in one. The bandings are based on historical property values for the bigger houses and the 1 bedroom flat I'm in just now is a relatively new build so it's valued quite high. There are other 1 bedroom flats not far from where I am where a mate lives and they are a band B because they're older. The whole system is a complete joke and completely unfair.

[degenerated]

Remember this?

24227

I reckon this was the inspiration for Boris’ Brexit bus lie, if you are going to tell one make it a big one.:greengrin
I wouldn’t be looking to the SNP to reform Council Tax. They had their chance as a majority Government in 2011 but kicked it in to the long grass of a review instead before quietly dropping the idea years later. They did go for a Tory style freeze though which seemed a much easier choice for them to make.Was it in the 2011 manifesto?

[ronaldo7]

Was it in the 2011 manifesto?

No.

As a minority government in 2007, they lost the vote in parliament to bring forward changes, had to change policy, and offered a council tax freeze for 5 years in the 2011 manifesto.

[Keith_M]

I agree there must be a fairer system but no matter which one is chosen, it will still have it's flaws.

For instance if they introduce an income based tax, what's to stop people using the same offshore tax and other other avoidance methods as they do with HMRC?





Personally, I think they should re-introduce the Poll Tax.


:duck:

[danhibees1875]

I think property value makes most sense for council tax - they just need to refresh/update the way they calculate that value.

[ballengeich]

One where everyone pays their fair share. For example, if somebody was in a Band A property worth £100k, and somebody in a £1m pound Band H house. The £1m pound house is worth 10x more, but they only pay around 3 or 4 times as much council tax.

You could look at charging 1% of the property value on an annual basis, for example.


I think property value makes most sense for council tax - they just need to refresh/update the way they calculate that value.
I'm in agreement with these ideas. One of the problems with the current set-up is that the banding is based on values many years ago. The commitment to change to a different basis meant that a revaluation never occurred. There are anomalies where people with different incomes live next to each other, but at least with a property tax it's difficult to avoid.

Another question is what level of funding should local government get. My impression is that the SNP government froze council tax but didn't provide adequate alternative funding for local authorities to meet their obligations. I think that the block grant puts too much say in central hands.

The whole question of what should be done where and how should the money be raised needs rethinking. A few years ago I visited friends who've emigrated to the USA. They live in a prosperous liberal community on the east coast with excellent schooling and other municipal services, all funded by local taxation. They said that while they pay far less income tax than in the UK, local taxes are far higher so the overall tax rate was roughly the same.

[Skol]

There is no way that a 1 bed flat and a 3 bed house in the same area should be in the same band and there are definite grounds for appeal. IIRC Martin Lewis has a good guide on his site on how to go about this.

While the currrent approach isnt perfect, the value of houses as at a date in the past isnt really an issue as time is relative and property values will have moved. If we did a mass revaluation I would expect most people to be in the same band. Granted its hard for new builds to get the value right, but thats where the appeals system comes. I guess the question is how much each band should pay but when I checked last night there is about a £3k difference between the top and bottom. There is an arument that we all get the same services and its not as if those in Band H get two waste bins or preferential gritting serves etc.

I also think that any alternative approach are fraught with difficulties to implement. Arguably Thatcher tried something different but it was poorly thought out, designed and implemented.

I look around my neighbours and I see a mix of retired and semi retired people and an income factor would mean they pay less than me for broadly the same and I have 2 adults and a student with part time income in the house. What if that student stays at home and gets a well paid graduate job, so I start to pay even more which is getting us into a poll tax type scenario

[JeMeSouviens]

Remember it well.

The optimist in me hopes that, post-pandemic, politicians may be brave and try and do some things differently to build a fairer society. I'm thinking about the positives of the NHS creation and house building boom post WWII as an example of big changes after a major once in a lifetime event such as a war or pandemic.

The realist in me is fully aware I'll probably be left holding my breath.

This will only happen once the indy question is resolved one way or the other. The SNP's last half-hearted "local income tax" effort was really a national income tax divvied up locally. What there should really be is a proper local income tax where the local authority sets the rates and the bands. They won't do this because there will be an inevitable outcry wherever rates are set differently, rubbish about "postcode lotteries" etc. With a hostile media it's a hostage to fortune and the SNP's usual no-boat-rocking-before-iref will easily win out.

[degenerated]

No.

As a minority government in 2007, they lost the vote in parliament to bring forward changes, had to change policy, and offered a council tax freeze for 5 years in the 2011 manifesto.I thought that was the case.

[marinello59]

No.

As a minority government in 2007, they lost the vote in parliament to bring forward changes, had to change policy, and offered a council tax freeze for 5 years in the 2011 manifesto.

It still remained SNP party policy and if they were serious they could have pushed it thorough. Instead they buried it under talk of a review (I'm not so sure that actually happened) and went with the Council Tax freeze which came straight out of the Tory party playbook. When the Greens tried to get scrapping the Council Tax back on the agenda in 2018 the SNP voted with the Tories to block it. That really doesn't look like the actions of a party who have any real desire to introduce more progressive local taxation.

[ronaldo7]

It still remained SNP party policy and if they were serious they could have pushed it thorough. Instead they buried it under talk of a review (I'm not so sure that actually happened) and went with the Council Tax freeze which came straight out of the Tory party playbook. When the Greens tried to get scrapping the Council Tax back on the agenda in 2018 the SNP voted with the Tories to block it. That really doesn't look like the actions of a party who have any real desire to introduce more progressive local taxation.

We elect governments on the Manifesto they put before us. It wasn't in the manifesto, but a 5 year council tax freeze was. Something that all other parties came to support (not sure about the greens). It was buried in 2009 when they lost the vote in parliament and Westminster told us we'd lose £400million from our budget if we proceeded.

Check out the first commitment. :greengrin

http://vote.snp.org/campaigns/SNP_Manifesto_2011_lowRes.pdf

[marinello59]

We elect governments on the Manifesto they put before us. It wasn't in the manifesto, but a 5 year council tax freeze was. Something that all other parties came to support (not sure about the greens). It was buried in 2009 when they lost the vote in parliament and Westminster told us we'd lose £400million from our budget if we proceeded.

Check out the first commitment. :greengrin

http://vote.snp.org/campaigns/SNP_Manifesto_2011_lowRes.pdf

So we can agree that the SNP had no real interest in scrapping the council tax for a more progressive alternative then? :greengrin

As an aside I’d already had a look at the manifesto, some things delivered, some not but I reckon they did OK during that term.

[ronaldo7]

So we can agree that the SNP had no real interest in scrapping the council tax for a more progressive alternative then? :greengrin

As an aside I’d already had a look at the manifesto, some things delivered, some not but I reckon they did OK during that term.

I'm sure we could all agree that governments of all hues should be progressive, unless it's the Tories of course, but back to the OP and the thread purpose, why are we still waiting to formulate a budget in our own country in the middle of January.

Waiting for the Tories again, and to be told what we're getting handed over.

[marinello59]

I'm sure we could all agree that governments of all hues should be progressive, unless it's the Tories of course, but back to the OP and the thread purpose, why are we still waiting to formulate a budget in our own country in the middle of January.

Waiting for the Tories again, and to be told what we're getting handed over.

Not for many more budgets though. :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

This will only happen once the indy question is resolved one way or the other. The SNP's last half-hearted "local income tax" effort was really a national income tax divvied up locally. What there should really be is a proper local income tax where the local authority sets the rates and the bands. They won't do this because there will be an inevitable outcry wherever rates are set differently, rubbish about "postcode lotteries" etc. With a hostile media it's a hostage to fortune and the SNP's usual no-boat-rocking-before-iref will easily win out.

That's an interesting idea, but I think it would pose too many logistical challenges for it to gain enough support. I agree with you the SNP are unlikely to rock the boat until indyref 2.

In terms of tax - presumably it would be paid based on location of residence, rather than location of work? (Thinking of the many who commute into Glasgow and Edinburgh from the suburbs). Getting and processing this information could be quite a big challenge for local authorities (and potentially residents).

There are also massive disparities between average wages earned across local authorities. Edinburgh, due to higher average wages, may be able to set a lower tax rate than somewhere like Inverclyde for example. Given there are areas of Scotland (parts of Ayrshire, Dumfries etc.) seeing more people move out of the area than into it, this may exacerbate those problems.

[GlesgaeHibby]

This has been raised before, but who is everyone and what is their fair share? You could quite easily have the situation where an elderly couple could have a 2 bed tenement flat valued as the same as a 4 bed house, purely because of its location within the city. The 4 bed could easily have 4 wage earning adults, and they pay the same CT as the older couple.
Where I live, there's a 3 bed house with an older couple that have 3 grown up kids, gross wage is around £140K.
Next door, same house but just a couple with a gross wage of around £45K.
I don't have an answer to the issue, just highlighting the disparity.

Perhaps the disparities you highlight could be addressed by a property based wealth tax, and a services based local income tax.

For the wealth based tax it could be set at a % of property value each year (and also potentially with a tax free allowance, e.g. tax free allowance of £100k and 1% of property value above £100k to lift say 10-15% out of paying tax).

On one hand, this may have a positive impact and slow down house price inflation. But on the other hand, it may act as a disincentive to homeowners upgrading their homes and adding value to their property.

I don't think there are any easy answers to this, nor is there a perfect solution. But there are options out there that would be a lot fairer than the current system.

[RyeSloan]

Perhaps the disparities you highlight could be addressed by a property based wealth tax, and a services based local income tax.

For the wealth based tax it could be set at a % of property value each year (and also potentially with a tax free allowance, e.g. tax free allowance of £100k and 1% of property value above £100k to lift say 10-15% out of paying tax).

On one hand, this may have a positive impact and slow down house price inflation. But on the other hand, it may act as a disincentive to homeowners upgrading their homes and adding value to their property.

I don't think there are any easy answers to this, nor is there a perfect solution. But there are options out there that would be a lot fairer than the current system.

I suppose Council Tax could be seen as a type of wealth tax already. As it evidences, wealth taxes are hard to make ‘fair’ and often have massive distortions in them due to the illiquid nature of most peoples main contributor to their wealth (their property).

A local sales tax would have been an option before but in today’s digital age seems a bit out dated and rather difficult to implement.

A local income tax is another option but as you point out that has its own complexity and for a nation the size of Scotland I just don’t think it’s needed or delivers many benefits. You also very quickly get into the same space as current income tax where a few end up paying a large percentage of the total. While seen as ‘pregessive’ this has its own issues.

Personally I’m minded to go another route and to remove the burden of social care and education running and funding from local councils completely. It has always seemed odd to me the wide variety of things that councils need to try and manage.

I know it removes the ‘local’ element to some degree but I think these should be funded centrally (and this spread across the multiple taxations levied there) and delivered through local partnerships. Or for education you could be very radical and give a ‘credit’ to parents who then spend that at the provider of their choice.

Thus your councils need for funds is vastly reduced and with it the debate on their funding routes. You could then allow them to focus on what seems to matter to most people from their council...emptying bins on time, sorting the roads and effective planning. So running the city so to speak rather than swathes of critical health and education services.

To support that they could be allowed to keep more of their local business taxation and be allowed to introduce more ‘hotel tax’ type taxes where they directly benefit from increased economic activity within their area.

I’m sure the above has tons of holes in it (I’ve not exactly done a 100 page impact analysis!) but the main thought is that any review or revision of council tax needs to go hand in glove with an ambitious and sweeping reform of how their services are delivered and by who.

[wookie70]

I live in an upper Villa, my house is the same footprint as that below barring the internal stairwell which pushes the square footage up. At the time when the SNP Govt put prices up for the higher bands my downstairs neighbours were a lovely couple one of whom was a consultant at the Royal and the other a senior nurse. Both had other properties that they rented out for further income. Due to the stairwell my property was the band higher than theirs so they had no increase and we ended up paying around 30 quid more a month from memory. Excluding their other property income their combined incomes were around 4 times ours. Council Tax is one of the most regressive taxes that we face. The SNP acknowledge that and have said they will change to a more progressive system. They have completely failed to do so. They will now get my vote until we are independent but it is solely for independence they are receiving it. In terms of making Scotland a fairer place to live they could have done so much more and council tax isnae the big boy in Westminster's fault.

I would do away with any locally gathered tax and up the income tax to cover the deficit. I don't know the figures and if that is within the power of the Scottish Government but it is the easiest and fairest way to fix it. I would obviously combine this with a hugely more capable and simplified tax system that try to have as few loopholes as possible.

[ballengeich]

I would do away with any locally gathered tax and up the income tax to cover the deficit. I don't know the figures and if that is within the power of the Scottish Government but it is the easiest and fairest way to fix it. I would obviously combine this with a hugely more capable and simplified tax system that try to have as few loopholes as possible.
I disagree as I believe that local authorities should be responsible for setting local tax rates which cover the services which they provide. The block grant should return to its original purpose of providing resources to poorer areas to allow them to maintain the same level of provision that wealthier parts can get.

I also don't see a property tax as particularly regressive. It's a tax on wealth which seems ok to me. Like anything it could be better administered and in particular recalibrated against current property values.

[wookie70]

I disagree as I believe that local authorities should be responsible for setting local tax rates which cover the services which they provide. The block grant should return to its original purpose of providing resources to poorer areas to allow them to maintain the same level of provision that wealthier parts can get.

I also don't see a property tax as particularly regressive. It's a tax on wealth which seems ok to me. Like anything it could be better administered and in particular recalibrated against current property values.

The valuations need updating for it to be a true wealth tax and there should be big disadvantages to second homes or properties rented for profit. It could be more progressive but there doesn't appear to be any political will to do so. I'm not sure a tax on wealth in terms of where you stay is a good thing and certainly not based on aged property assessments. eg Flat in Northfield value £190 K band D against flat in Comley Bank around 400K and both in Band D. There are converted Properties in Circus Lane etc that are around 600K and the same band as a 1 bed in Muirhouse. Perhaps Council Tax could be a reasonable Local Tax, I still don't like it, but it needs a massive modernisation