Celtc complain about Sectarian Abuse outside Ibrox

[Keith_M]

There's already been reports about the sectarian abuse dished out to the Celtc players and staff outside Ibrox before the game at the weekend and now Celtc have issued a statement (rightly) calling out that abuse as "completely unacceptable" (Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fc-demand-police-action-23260275))

It's a sad reflection on the situation at our two biggest clubs that this has had so little coverage, and that their has been such a reticence on the part of the press to identify the culprits as Rangers Supporters, which is what they quite clearly were... or that The Rangers FC have yet to condemn it.



If all Football Clubs, the Media, Politicians and the Football Authorities can wholeheartedly engage in the current campaign against Racism (which I fully applaud), then where is the outcry over the cancer of Sectarianism?

[Stuart93]

There's already been reports about the sectarian abuse dished out to the Celtc players and staff outside Ibrox before the game at the weekend and now Celtc have issued a statement (rightly) calling out that abuse as "completely unacceptable" (Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fc-demand-police-action-23260275))

It's a sad reflection on the situation at our two biggest clubs that this has had so little coverage, and that their has been such a reticence on the part of the press to identify the culprits as Rangers Supporters, which is what they quite clearly were... or that The Rangers FC have yet to condemn it.



If all Football Clubs, the Media, Politicians and the Football Authorities can wholeheartedly engage in the current campaign against Racism (which I fully applaud), then where is the outcry over the cancer of Sectarianism?

Sectarianism rules Scottish football.

The two top teams in the country thrive on it & are as strong as they are based purely on religion

It’ll never, ever, go away

[easty]

Who’s the target of the paedo shouts? Is there a specific target, or are the paedos just cos they play for Celtc?

“Gunge that paedo”...what sort of moron shouts that, it’s so ****.

[easty]

There's already been reports about the sectarian abuse dished out to the Celtc players and staff outside Ibrox before the game at the weekend and now Celtc have issued a statement (rightly) calling out that abuse as "completely unacceptable" (Daily Record (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fc-demand-police-action-23260275))

It's a sad reflection on the situation at our two biggest clubs that this has had so little coverage, and that their has been such a reticence on the part of the press to identify the culprits as Rangers Supporters, which is what they quite clearly were... or that The Rangers FC have yet to condemn it.



If all Football Clubs, the Media, Politicians and the Football Authorities can wholeheartedly engage in the current campaign against Racism (which I fully applaud), then where is the outcry over the cancer of Sectarianism?

I’m sure when Rangers do respond it’ll be along the lines of... “but what about when Celtic fans [insert other arse cheek behaviour]”.

Neither wants to really deal with it.

[Keith_M]

Who’s the target of the paedo shouts? Is there a specific target, or are the paedos just cos they play for Celtc?

“Gunge that paedo”...what sort of moron shouts that, it’s so ****.


It's a standard insult from Rangers Fans to anyone associated with Celtc.

I was walking through Glasgow City Centre, on the way home from a game, a few years ago and had stuff like that aimed at me from a group of Rangers Fans that thought I was a Celtc Supporter.

[JimBHibees]

It's a standard insult from Rangers Fans to anyone associated with Celtc.

I was walking through Glasgow City Centre, on the way home from a game, a few years ago and had stuff like that aimed at me from a group of Rangers Fans that thought I was a Celtc Supporter.

That club and the cancer they permeate is despicable only outdone by the lack of coverage of it and the lack of a backbone to confront it properly.

[Pretty Boy]

Those pesky fans of West of Scotland FC, Crowd of People FC and Football Supporters FC. What are they like?!

[JimBHibees]

Those pesky fans of West of Scotland FC, Crowd of People FC and Football Supporters FC. What are they like?!

Think they might have been Chelsea fans also?

[EI255]

TRFC

Just one horrible institution.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Alfred E Newman]

Who’s the target of the paedo shouts? Is there a specific target, or are the paedos just cos they play for Celtc?

“Gunge that paedo”...what sort of moron shouts that, it’s so ****.

What on earth does gunge mean?

[CropleyWasGod]

What on earth does gunge mean?

Did you never watch TISWAS? 😆

[Peevemor]

Did you never watch TISWAS? [emoji38]Mostly Sally James' chesties.

[Keith_M]

Did you never watch TISWAS? ��


Mostly Sally James' chesties.


I knew this would go off topic


:rolleyes:

[The 90+2]

They haven’t lost the league or anything have they?

[Lancs Harp]

"Celtic complain" ...... enough said.

[Keith_M]

"Celtic complain" ...... enough said.


I know, they're annoying, but it's really more the fact that this kind of thing is still happening today with hardly a mention from people that protest about similar issues.

Until it's taken seriously, it'll never go away.

[MWHIBBIES]

I know, they're annoying, but it's really more the fact that this kind of thing is still happening today with hardly a mention from people that protest about similar issues.

Until it's taken seriously, it'll never go away.

I agree but Celtic are as much to blame as Rangers. It will never go away unless both of them do something.

[SHODAN]

"But what about Celtic?"

[Eyrie]

I agree but Celtic are as much to blame as Rangers. It will never go away unless both of them do something.

Too profitable to both arse cheeks for either to seriously address the problem.

[Keith_M]

I agree but Celtic are as much to blame as Rangers. It will never go away unless both of them do something.


:agree:

[Sylar]

While 'someone shouts sectarian remark in Glasgow' is far from a headline, it's a pretty convenient thing for them to be complaining about on a day where their own fans are amongst those slamming them for their Dubai trip in addition to slating them for their current league position.

They also have short memories when you think back to the scenes of Rangers arriving at Celtc Park for the first Old Firm game of the season...they were quiet then.

Neither club has any interest in eradicating the tribalism and prejudices. It lines their pockets too well.

[weecounty hibby]

I agree but Celtic are as much to blame as Rangers. It will never go away unless both of them do something.

100%. They need to work together on this but never will. They will blame each other and each try to take the high ground. Also makes loads of money for them.

[S4uzee]

Why did the Police just let the fans do that during a pandemic?

[jacomo]

Sectarianism rules Scottish football.

The two top teams in the country thrive on it & are as strong as they are based purely on religion

It’ll never, ever, go away


I almost wonder if ignoring it might be the best course of action. By all means press criminal charges where possible but no wider media coverage. I’m sick of the performative outrage.

[The Count]

If that was Hibs fans outside Easter Road calling Rangers or Celtic players disgusting names it would be all over the press.The press is scared of Rangers/Celtic as they sell papers.Anyway speaking the truth would soon lose there job or be censured.Look what happened to Michael Stewart so we end up with TV and journalist that are scared to report the truth.Scotland shame and its now 2021 and its so sad.

[Itsnoteasy]

Did you never watch TISWAS? 😆

Today Is Saturday Watch And Smile.

You couldn't say that about Hibs just now.

[Stuart93]

I almost wonder if ignoring it might be the best course of action. By all means press criminal charges where possible but no wider media coverage. I’m sick of the performative outrage.

Nothing will ever change until we bring in a system where clubs are punished due to the actions of their supporters (can’t remember the name for it)

Then the spfl/sfa would have to come down hard on sectarianism in all instances.

It’ll never happen though.

[PolmontHibby]

There just doesnt seem to be the interest from the police to stop it.
If I shouted the same stuff to people going in to the Scottish Parliament for example I would be lifted pronto.

[Dr What If?]

If someone was to point out that sectarianism is a sub category of racism would our players still be taking the knee? It is a cancer on our society and quite frankly humiliating that our proud and enlightened nation has never managed to outgrow.

[Hibernia&Alba]

We all know that the sectarian problem won't be eradicated at Ibrox until the SPL/SFA hit them with sanctions that hurt them in the pocket, such as ground closures and points deductions. Sectarianism is central to the club's identity; they know exactly what they are doing when releasing orange kits, for example. It isn't a lunatic minority who sing about Fenians, the pope etc at Ibrox; it's a clear majority. They are raised on it.

[The Count]

[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;6408218]We all know that the sectarian problem won't be eradicated at Ibrox until the SPL/SFA hit them with sanctions that hurt them in the pocket, such as ground closures and points deductions. Sectarianism is central to the club's identity; they know exactly what they are doing when releasing orange kits, for example. It isn't a lunatic minority who sing about Fenians, the pope etc at Ibrox; it's a clear majority. They are

[kaimendhibs]

This is a national disgrace and it is racism with a different name. Those in power should hang thier heads in shame for allowing it to continue.
Scotland prides itself on being all inclusive, but turns a blind eye.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[The Count]

The hypocrisy of Scottish football of standing with"kick racism out of football" cards followed by taking the knee.Very worthly and i agree 100%.But Sectarianism is a the big problem in Scottish football and is a far bigger problem than racism.

[gbhibby]

It's a sad reflection on our society and education system that these dinosaurs still exist.

[basehibby]

If that was Hibs fans outside Easter Road calling Rangers or Celtic players disgusting names it would be all over the press.The press is scared of Rangers/Celtic as they sell papers.Anyway speaking the truth would soon lose there job or be censured.Look what happened to Michael Stewart so we end up with TV and journalist that are scared to report the truth.Scotland shame and its now 2021 and its so sad.

This is SO true - there is a conspiracy of silence in the Weedgie media as regards the sectarianism of the Ugly Sisters - doubled down on with their frantic efforts to point the finger elsewhere on the slightest context

[Jim44]

Nothing will ever change until we bring in a system where clubs are punished due to the actions of their supporters (can’t remember the name for it)

Then the spfl/sfa would have to come down hard on sectarianism in all instances.

It’ll never happen though.

I think the term you’re looking for is ‘strict liability’. Only three Scottish clubs were in favour of it.

[CMurdoch]

Who’s the target of the paedo shouts? Is there a specific target, or are the paedos just cos they play for Celtc?

“Gunge that paedo”...what sort of moron shouts that, it’s so ****.

I have noted over the years that many thick people are obsessed by paedophiles although almost none can spell it.
No idea why the Police allowed half wits to gather anywhere near where the players were disembarking from the bus.
Suspect it will be a very short Police enquiry to identify them.

[CMurdoch]

I think the term you’re looking for is ‘strict liability’. Only three Scottish clubs were in favour of it.

Our own club would have been in the deep stuff on 3 occasions in the last 5 years if strict liability had been adopted which is the reason clubs don't want to adopt it.
The incident where a bottle thrown from the East narrowly missed Scott Sinclair at Easter Road was an outrage. The pace that the bottle bounced off the ground suggested to me that it was thrown from a great height and would have caused a very serious injury to the player had it struck him on the head.
The person that threw the bottle should have been identified by those around him and it is appalling that this didn't happen.
Fortunately, the bottle missed Sinclair. As ever Dempster saw the big picture and installed an expensive CCTV system that allows for people who commit criminal acts within the stadium (not including mass sectarian singing i'm afraid) to be readily identified after the fact.

[vuefrom1875]

I have noted over the years that many thick people are obsessed by paedophiles although almost none can spell it.
No idea why the Police allowed half wits to gather anywhere near where the players were disembarking from the bus.
Suspect it will be a very short Police enquiry to identify them.
You'll never change these uneducated morons, sectarian bile is in their DNA.

[BH Hibs]

Why are the fannies there to begin with?

[CropleyWasGod]

Today Is Saturday Watch And Smile.

You couldn't say that about Hibs just now.

This is *****, watch another side.😁

[Hermit Crab]

Glasgows finest standing by...

https://twitter.com/outlawscotsman/status/1346084826856763393?s=20

[JimBHibees]

Our own club would have been in the deep stuff on 3 occasions in the last 5 years if strict liability had been adopted which is the reason clubs don't want to adopt it.
The incident where a bottle thrown from the East narrowly missed Scott Sinclair at Easter Road was an outrage. The pace that the bottle bounced off the ground suggested to me that it was thrown from a great height and would have caused a very serious injury to the player had it struck him on the head.
The person that threw the bottle should have been identified by those around him and it is appalling that this didn't happen.
Fortunately, the bottle missed Sinclair. As ever Dempster saw the big picture and installed an expensive CCTV system that allows for people who commit criminal acts within the stadium (not including mass sectarian singing i'm afraid) to be readily identified after the fact.

Yep pretty shameful whoever threw wasn't called out could very easily have been seriously injured.

[Bishop Hibee]

It's a sad reflection on our society and education system that these dinosaurs still exist.

Nothing to do with our education system. Other countries quite happily have non-denominational and faith schools with no bigotry. Celebrate diversity.

[Keith_M]

Why are the fannies there to begin with?


Because their Celtc counterparts, The Green Brigade, had been widely reported gathering outside Celtc Park and Hampden and setting off fireworks.

Both groups desperately crave the attention that their parents obviously didn't give them in their childhood.


Quite why the police decided to ignore both the illegal gathering and the sectarian and other insults... well, you'd have to ask the police themselves.

[Hibby70]

Today Is Saturday Watch And Smile.

You couldn't say that about Hibs just now.

Today Is Saturday Watch And Sigh.

[The Count]

Nothing to do with our education system. Other countries quite happily have non-denominational and faith schools with no bigotry. Celebrate diversity.

I agree time for non segregated schools just wish enlightened people over a hundred years ago allowed catholics at there schools.If they had allowed catholic kids to attend then there would probably only be a few private catholic schools now.It would of not cured all the problems but it would of helped.I attended catholic schools and never found any real bigotry but yrs its time for non faith schools and help rid Scotland of this cancer.

[Jones28]

Too profitable to both arse cheeks for either to seriously address the problem.

You just have to look at some Rangers third and away kits to see that.

[007]

Glasgows finest standing by...

https://twitter.com/outlawscotsman/status/1346084826856763393?s=20

Clips like this going viral is about the only way something might be done, by shaming the clubs/police/govt into taking action. Though it would need a lot more views to make them sit up and take notice.

[Keith_M]

You just have to look at some Rangers third and away kits to see that.


The Rangers are apparently attempting to address the situation by releasing this new Away Kit....


24188

[The Harp Awakes]

We all know that the sectarian problem won't be eradicated at Ibrox until the SPL/SFA hit them with sanctions that hurt them in the pocket, such as ground closures and points deductions. Sectarianism is central to the club's identity; they know exactly what they are doing when releasing orange kits, for example. It isn't a lunatic minority who sing about Fenians, the pope etc at Ibrox; it's a clear majority. They are raised on it.

Yip, take away the bigotry and sectarianism and there's no Sevco. They have no purpose. No there's a thought :hmmm:

[EI255]

Why are the fannies there to begin with?That's a fair point!

[Robbo6-2]

People in glass houses

[Hermit Crab]

The Rangers are apparently attempting to address the situation by releasing this new Away Kit....


24188


:greengrin

I mind when they had an orange away top in the late 90s? I think they only wore it at Parkhead and Easter Rd in an attempt to antagonise us. They said it was a tribute to their Dutch players. My erse, most popular strip amongst the fans thats for sure.

[GreensesArab]

The hypocrisy of Scottish football of standing with"kick racism out of football" cards followed by taking the knee.Very worthly and i agree 100%.But Sectarianism is a the big problem in Scottish football and is a far bigger problem than racism.


I totally agree with this. Players taking the knee in Scotland gives the impression we're serious about racism yet the Scottish footballing authorities have allowed religious racism to flourish and prosper for generations.

[Carheenlea]

Celtic complaining about sectarian abuse is a bit like Billy Bunter complaining about someone else eating too many cakes.

Without football, I doubt there would be any sectarian problems in Scotland. The tribal stances taken by each side is based predominantly on the football team they support. What actual religion they are is secondary.

A few fully grown adults shouting abuse at a football team bus is hard to take too seriously.

[Keith_M]

:greengrin

I mind when they had an orange away top in the late 90s? I think they only wore it at Parkhead and Easter Rd in an attempt to antagonise us. They said it was a tribute to their Dutch players. My erse, most popular strip amongst the fans thats for sure.


Yeah I don't think anybody fell for that.

I'm sure their fans all dressed in orange for a cup final around that time, allegedly as a tribute to Dick Advocaat.

[gbhibby]

Nothing to do with our education system. Other countries quite happily have non-denominational and faith schools with no bigotry. Celebrate diversity.
Other countries do not have the Irish situation in the background. There will always be bigots in this country as long as these two clubs exist. As a society we should celebrate diversity but need to put more emphasis on this in the way we teach our children. I do think that separate schools does not help the situation. I know bigots on both sides who claim that they are only 90 minute bigots.

[1 8 7 5]

"Celtic complain" ...... enough said.

brutal.

[1 8 7 5]

The rest of the Clubs allow this to go on too. Its far too simplistic an approach if you think sectarianism is restricted to the 2 bigger glasgow clubs.

We're all allowing it to continue. Hibs and hearts dont care for example. We both have enough fans to fill our grounds but we dont, so we, along with everyone else take the 4 full away ends each season. Nobody can afford or wants to afford :wink: banning the ****bags from our grounds. The beat just goes on...

[Alfred E Newman]

Did you never watch TISWAS? 😆

No, I'll ask my kids! 😂

[Iggy Pope]

Celtic complaining about sectarian abuse is a bit like Billy Bunter complaining about someone else eating too many cakes.

Without football, I doubt there would be any sectarian problems in Scotland. The tribal stances taken by each side is based predominantly on the football team they support. What actual religion they are is secondary.

A few fully grown adults shouting abuse at a football team bus is hard to take too seriously.

Seriously?
The abuse was delivered on the street yards away from their targets, hardly at the bus.

Despicable behaviour and hard to understand why Celtic would be expected to do anything other than complain about it. Even harder to see why Celtic are being blamed on here along the lines of “both erse cheeks”.

What would your take be Carheenlea, if someone went out of their way to scream “PEADO” at you from 5 yards away as you got off your bus to your work?

[Tommy75]

Celtic complaining about sectarian abuse is a bit like Billy Bunter complaining about someone else eating too many cakes.

Without football, I doubt there would be any sectarian problems in Scotland. The tribal stances taken by each side is based predominantly on the football team they support. What actual religion they are is secondary.

A few fully grown adults shouting abuse at a football team bus is hard to take too seriously.

Strange last sentence.

[Carheenlea]

Seriously?
The abuse was delivered on the street yards away from their targets, hardly at the bus.

Despicable behaviour and hard to understand why Celtic would be expected to do anything other than complain about it. Even harder to see why Celtic are being blamed on here along the lines of “both erse cheeks”.

What would your take be Carheenlea, if someone went out of their way to scream “PEADO” at you from 5 yards away as you got off your bus to your work?

Its never going to happen in a normal environment and I don’t expect to ever face abuse like that any time in the future. Certainly not outwith a footballing environment.
Not saying it’s acceptable what happened, but it was the act of childish men who should know better and probably should have been moved on long before the Celtic team bus arrived. It’s only a few weeks since Celtic fans were bombarding their own team bus, albeit without the sectarian insults or “paedo” patter. There’s a toxicity that runs through the veins of both clubs that isn’t so prevalent at most other clubs.

You’re right to say it’s despicable behaviour, but until the clubs themselves make more of a conscious effort to condemn, this kind of sectarian pantomime will rumble on for some time.

[Carheenlea]

Strange last sentence.

Not phrased very well, but more highlighting the cringing embarrassment for those old enough to know better who were abusing the bus. Imbeciles who can’t be taken seriously.

[Argylehibby]

Sectarianism in this country will never be sorted out because of the fear that everyone that could do something has for how the consequences of standing up to it will impact them.

The 2 clubs who are the biggest breeding grounds for the bigots are scared to do anything because they will lose fans and therefore money and subsequently lose their power within the game up here.

The media are scared to call it out because they are scared of losing readers / viewers. So for them it's better to tell everyone the clubs are doing their best behind the scenes instead of asking them to step out front stage and make public what they are doing and when that something is not enough (as it obviously isn't) call them out for it.

The administrators of football in this country are just scared of the old firm full stop. They are scared of them losing their spending power thus reducing the chances of them doing well in Europe resulting in Scotland being less "prominent" than we are currently in europe. The are scared that they might eventually leave Scotland and play elsewhere and therefore in their eyes turning what's left into a backwater of world football.

The politicians are scared of losing votes and probably in line with all of the above on a personal level scared of the potential abuse, verbal and physical, that making a stance could bring their way.

The black lives matter campaign was a great chance for all of the above to put their head above the parapet and call out that sectarianism is an issue here, possably a bigger issue in fact, so lets look to tackle it but they didn't. I fear they won't get another chance.

[Keith_M]

Sectarianism in this country will never be sorted out because of the fear that everyone that could do something has for how the consequences of standing up to it will impact them.

The 2 clubs who are the biggest breeding grounds for the bigots are scared to do anything because they will lose fans and therefore money and subsequently lose their power within the game up here.

The media are scared to call it out because they are scared of losing readers / viewers. So for them it's better to tell everyone the clubs are doing their best behind the scenes instead of asking them to step out front stage and make public what they are doing and when that something is not enough (as it obviously isn't) call them out for it.

The administrators of football in this country are just scared of the old firm full stop. They are scared of them losing their spending power thus reducing the chances of them doing well in Europe resulting in Scotland being less "prominent" than we are currently in europe. The are scared that they might eventually leave Scotland and play elsewhere and therefore in their eyes turning what's left into a backwater of world football.

The politicians are scared of losing votes and probably in line with all of the above on a personal level scared of the potential abuse, verbal and physical, that making a stance could bring their way.

The black lives matter campaign was a great chance for all of the above to put their head above the parapet and call out that sectarianism is an issue here, possably a bigger issue in fact, so lets look to tackle it but they didn't. I fear they won't get another chance.


Well said.


I also agree that the other clubs share a part of the blame, due to their failure to call out the bigots. When Neil Lennon was at Hibs and being abused at Ibrox, Hibs should have come out all guns blazing, but said nothing.

When 1,000 or so Hibs fans go to Ibrox and have to listen to 90 minutes of sectarianism, or when these 'peepul' visit Easter Road, our club should call them out and demand action, but prefer to remain silent.

We've recently seen teams leave the pitch when one of their team-mates was racially abused, and they are widely supported for their actions. Sadly, there is no such action taken against Sectarianism.

[superfurryhibby]

Well said.


I also agree that the other clubs share a part of the blame, due to their failure to call out the bigots. When Neil Lennon was at Hibs and being abused at Ibrox, Hibs should have come out all guns blazing, but said nothing.

When 1,000 or so Hibs fans go to Ibrox and have to listen to 90 minutes of sectarianism, or when these 'peepul' visit Easter Road, our club should call them out and demand action, but prefer to remain silent.

We've recently seen teams leave the pitch when one of their team-mates was racially abused, and they are widely supported for their actions. Sadly, there is no such action taken against Sectarianism.

It's a very good point you make too. The issue with the Romanian fourth official and the alleged use of the "black guy" as a descriptor really does get put into perspective when you compare it to 50,000 fans singing stuff about Neil Lennon and his religion (is Lennon even a churchgoer? ).

What would have happened if Hibs had condemned the singing? How would the SFA have responded...I wonder where that would have gone?

As an aside, I've always said (not in reference to you of course) that we need to stop the two sides of the same arse cheek nonsense and treat each issue on it's own merits. There is more sectarianism in our game than just Rangers and Celtic. Whataboutery adds nothing, in fact I suspect it somehow fits with a broader brush it under the carpet agenda. Look at each issue individually and stop indulging the apologists by maintaining this two cheeks naïve stance.

[Brizo]

Well said.


I also agree that the other clubs share a part of the blame, due to their failure to call out the bigots. When Neil Lennon was at Hibs and being abused at Ibrox, Hibs should have come out all guns blazing, but said nothing.

When 1,000 or so Hibs fans go to Ibrox and have to listen to 90 minutes of sectarianism, or when these 'peepul' visit Easter Road, our club should call them out and demand action, but prefer to remain silent.

We've recently seen teams leave the pitch when one of their team-mates was racially abused, and they are widely supported for their actions. Sadly, there is no such action taken against Sectarianism.

:top marks

IIRC when Frank Dougan was fans rep he did call out the sectarianism after one particularly toxic game at Ibrox and received a torrent of vile abuse. I don't recall the Club supporting him in any way, shape or form While I was no great fan of Frank I felt he was pretty much left to hang out to dry by LD and the rest of the Board.

Unfortunately, Hibs, like the rest of Scotland's clubs, are complicit in allowing this nonsense to continue by our deafening silence.

[Keith_M]

:top marks

IIRC when Frank Dougan was fans rep he did call out the sectarianism after one particularly toxic game at Ibrox and received a torrent of vile abuse. I don't recall the Club supporting him in any way, shape or form While I was no great fan of Frank I felt he was pretty much left to hang out to dry by LD and the rest of the Board.

Unfortunately, Hibs, like the rest of Scotland's clubs, are complicit in allowing this nonsense to continue by our deafening silence.


I didn't know that, and it's sad to hear that was the case.

[Carheenlea]

:top marks

IIRC when Frank Dougan was fans rep he did call out the sectarianism after one particularly toxic game at Ibrox and received a torrent of vile abuse. I don't recall the Club supporting him in any way, shape or form While I was no great fan of Frank I felt he was pretty much left to hang out to dry by LD and the rest of the Board.

Unfortunately, Hibs, like the rest of Scotland's clubs, are complicit in allowing this nonsense to continue by our deafening silence.


I didn't know that, and it's sad to hear that was the case.

I do remember Frank flagging up a lot of fans concerns at Ibrox, but where did the vile abuse come from? Can`t remember this to be honest and would be interested to know who was directing such abuse towards him in particular as it has long been a concern of travelling Hibs supporters to Ibrox.

[EI255]

Seriously?
The abuse was delivered on the street yards away from their targets, hardly at the bus.

Despicable behaviour and hard to understand why Celtic would be expected to do anything other than complain about it. Even harder to see why Celtic are being blamed on here along the lines of “both erse cheeks”.

What would your take be Carheenlea, if someone went out of their way to scream “PEADO” at you from 5 yards away as you got off your bus to your work?I can't quite understand either why people here can't understand that footballers have complained about sectarian abuse (and/or god knows what else) outside a football ground. Would Hibs players have to accept it? I think not.

I find it quite staggering that people here are having difficulties accepting that football players have been abused outside a fellow member's stadium.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[660]

I would fully support a team walking off the pitch due to sectarianism. It happens quite rightly for racism. It’s the one thing I could see actually affecting change.

[ben johnson]

Interesting to see if the police react to the Celtic officials the way they have reacted to similar comments from ordinary spectators who have been abused
“ Shut your mouth or you are lifted “
or the “ F off back to Edinburgh if you dont like it “
The latter won’t work of course.
Dear Green place. Only 40 miles away from us.

[The Harp Awakes]

I can't quite understand either why people here can't understand that footballers have complained about sectarian abuse (and/or god knows what else) outside a football ground. Would Hibs players have to accept it? I think not.

I find it quite staggering that people here are having difficulties accepting that football players have been abused outside a fellow member's stadium.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

You're right, it's very sad.

The answer is, when an accusation of bigotry/sectarianism is raised by one side, many folk take the view (as can be seen in a lot of the responses to this thread); ah well what are they moaning about, their supporters are just as bad, 2 cheeks of the same @rse etc.

Until we get away from that p1sh and call this stuff out every time, it will go on forever. We're all guilty of sweeping this sectarian cr@p under the rug; the clubs (including ours), supporters (including many of ours), the media, politicians etc, etc.

[hibbysam]

You're right, it's very sad.

The answer is, when an accusation of bigotry/sectarianism is raised by one side, many folk take the view (as can be seen in a lot of the responses to this thread); ah well what are they moaning about, their supporters are just as bad, 2 cheeks of the same @rse etc.

Until we get away from that p1sh and call this stuff out every time, it will go on forever. We're all guilty of sweeping this sectarian cr@p under the rug; the clubs (including ours), supporters (including many of ours), the media, politicians etc, etc.

You are correct. We also need to get away from the ‘oh well that’s not quite sectarian so that side aren’t as bad as the other side’ or ‘what that side have said doesn’t offend me or us so they’re not as bad’. Every instance from every side should be called out as the hate that it is and dealt with appropriately. I won’t hold my breath though. The police don’t have the resources, the governing bodies don’t have the balls and the clubs make too much money from it (whether that be the OF or the smaller clubs from the visit of the OF).

[CMurdoch]

You are correct. We also need to get away from the ‘oh well that’s not quite sectarian so that side aren’t as bad as the other side’ or ‘what that side have said doesn’t offend me or us so they’re not as bad’. Every instance from every side should be called out as the hate that it is and dealt with appropriately. I won’t hold my breath though. The police don’t have the resources, the governing bodies don’t have the balls and the clubs make too much money from it (whether that be the OF or the smaller clubs from the visit of the OF).

I think your last sentence has just about got all the relevant issues covered.
Always follow the money It's what has and does drive decisions in football.
Everything else is a red herring.

[BH Hibs]

:greengrin

I mind when they had an orange away top in the late 90s? I think they only wore it at Parkhead and Easter Rd in an attempt to antagonise us. They said it was a tribute to their Dutch players. My erse, most popular strip amongst the fans thats for sure.

They had one last year as well mate. Also that ******** McGregor still wears one but neither of the other goalkeepers do or did.

[TheCabbage]

Call me cynical but this report appears after the Dubai trips pics etc

Whilst it is vile and no player should be subjected to it I feel it’s a classic diversion from the way their Dubai trip is being portrayed

[flash]

Celtic complaining about sectarian abuse is a bit like Billy Bunter complaining about someone else eating too many cakes.

Without football, I doubt there would be any sectarian problems in Scotland. The tribal stances taken by each side is based predominantly on the football team they support. What actual religion they are is secondary.

A few fully grown adults shouting abuse at a football team bus is hard to take too seriously.
Seeing as Hibs and Celtic were both formed as a result of religious bigotry I think it's slightly disingenuous to suggest both Glasgow teams are equally guilty.
Celtic's greatest ever manager was a Protestant not that it should matter.
I have no religious affiliations at all and can't stand many things about Celtic and their fans but not sure religious bigotry is one of them.

[hibbysam]

Seeing as Hibs and Celtic were both formed as a result of religious bigotry I think it's slightly disingenuous to suggest both Glasgow teams are equally guilty.
Celtic's greatest ever manager was a Protestant not that it should matter.
I have no religious affiliations at all and can't stand many things about Celtic and their fans but not sure religious bigotry is one of them.

If you don’t think religious bigotry is a serious issue in the east end of Glasgow then fair play. I have plenty of mates from both sides and they sing their hatred of Protestants just as much as the other way around. If they weren’t from this country then their hatred of all things British would be almost Xenophobic. Celtic strive off their fans’ feelings on this, they’ll never change that. Rangers have a number of catholic players in their team, doesn’t make them any less bigoted as a club and fanbase.

[Kojock]

Sectarianism rules Scottish football.

The two top teams in the country thrive on it & are as strong as they are based purely on religion

It’ll never, ever, go away

Sad but true.
I remember as a 10 year old being abused by Rangers fans repeatedly calling me Fenian B*****d. I’m now 60 and nothing has changed.

[Jones28]

The Rangers are apparently attempting to address the situation by releasing this new Away Kit....


24188

Thats almost as bad as that hideous Union Jack effort they released

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTIyWDEwMjQ=/z/h9EAAOSwLYRbThF8/$_86.JPG


:sick:

[flash]

If you don’t think religious bigotry is a serious issue in the east end of Glasgow then fair play. I have plenty of mates from both sides and they sing their hatred of Protestants just as much as the other way around. If they weren’t from this country then their hatred of all things British would be almost Xenophobic. Celtic strive off their fans’ feelings on this, they’ll never change that. Rangers have a number of catholic players in their team, doesn’t make them any less bigoted as a club and fanbase.

They clearly do have songs and views which are anti British establishment but that's normal for an oppressed minority which is where these songs originated from.
No doubt there are unsavoury elements within both sets of supporters but I still maintain my view as stated previously.

[The Modfather]

They clearly do have songs and views which are anti British establishment but that's normal for an oppressed minority which is where these songs originated from.
No doubt there are unsavoury elements within both sets of supporters but I still maintain my view as stated previously.

Am I missing something, an “oppressed minority”? I thought Celtc were a football club that played in Scotland, no more no less. There’s a reason Hibs sang the same kind of songs in the 70s, yet you won’t hear any of that nonsense at Easter Road nowadays. Society has matured and moved on but it’s been cultivated and clung to in the west. As the old saying goes, it takes two to argue. It’s not a rivalry where one side is motivated by footballing merit and the other is a one sided sectarian rivalry IMO, they need each other.

[hibbysam]

They clearly do have songs and views which are anti British establishment but that's normal for an oppressed minority which is where these songs originated from.
No doubt there are unsavoury elements within both sets of supporters but I still maintain my view as stated previously.

Making excuses only strengthens their argument. There is no excuse. It’s a massive issue on both sides of the Glasgow divide and there’s a reason the clubs won’t tackle it.

[flash]

Am I missing something, an “oppressed minority”? I thought Celtc were a football club that played in Scotland, no more no less. There’s a reason Hibs sang the same kind of songs in the 70s, yet you won’t hear any of that nonsense at Easter Road nowadays. Society has matured and moved on but it’s been cultivated and clung to in the west. As the old saying goes, it takes two to argue. It’s not a rivalry where one side is motivated by footballing merit and the other is a one sided sectarian rivalry IMO, they need each other.

An oppressed minority as in back then not now.

[flash]

Making excuses only strengthens their argument. There is no excuse. It’s a massive issue on both sides of the Glasgow divide and there’s a reason the clubs won’t tackle it.

You don't think this was originally a story of the oppressors and the oppressed?

[Jones28]

An oppressed minority as in back then not now.

So if it's historic then why do the clubs cultivate it today?

[superfurryhibby]

It's a very good point you make too. The issue with the Romanian fourth official and the alleged use of the "black guy" as a descriptor really does get put into perspective when you compare it to 50,000 fans singing stuff about Neil Lennon and his religion (is Lennon even a churchgoer? ).

What would have happened if Hibs had condemned the singing? How would the SFA have responded...I wonder where that would have gone?

As an aside, I've always said (not in reference to you of course) that we need to stop the two sides of the same arse cheek nonsense and treat each issue on it's own merits. There is more sectarianism in our game than just Rangers and Celtic. Whataboutery adds nothing, in fact I suspect it somehow fits with a broader brush it under the carpet agenda. Look at each issue individually and stop indulging the apologists by maintaining this two cheeks naïve stance.


You're right, it's very sad.

The answer is, when an accusation of bigotry/sectarianism is raised by one side, many folk take the view (as can be seen in a lot of the responses to this thread); ah well what are they moaning about, their supporters are just as bad, 2 cheeks of the same @rse etc.

Until we get away from that p1sh and call this stuff out every time, it will go on forever. We're all guilty of sweeping this sectarian cr@p under the rug; the clubs (including ours), supporters (including many of ours), the media, politicians etc, etc.

Two valid points of view that thus far no one here is really interested in speaking about. Maybe it needs said in a more polemic manner?

If you carry on with the two cheeks of the same arse nonsense then you are part of the problem. It's lazy, plain wrong and it helps maintain with the status quo.

That doesn't mean one is less guilty than the other, although I would suggest that, from my admittedly less than expert knowledge, that the Rebel songbook is less focused on hating protestants and more on the over throwing of British rule in Ireland (it clearly needs updated).

The key point is stop accepting the pish and take each example on it's own merits (that would also involve challenging clubs like Hearts who have a very vocal sectarian minority). The two cheeks argument makes all of them untouchable.

[flash]

So if it's historic then why do the clubs cultivate it today?

Celtic as a club are actively distancing themselves from a lot of their heritage hence the fact that the Green Brigade despise the current regime.

[hibbysam]

You don't think this was originally a story of the oppressors and the oppressed?

I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

[The Count]

If this was anti Muslim or anti Jewish singing it would be all over the papers,media and parliament.Now you might not agree with the Catholic religion many on here dont and i understand that but its still a religion like Muslim,Hindu,Judism etc. so one should not be allowed to sing anti songs against it in the year 2021.Scotland is a wonderfull country but this is our cancer.

[flash]

I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

Think we are at cross purposes here so will leave it at that.

[bigwheel]

They clearly do have songs and views which are anti British establishment but that's normal for an oppressed minority which is where these songs originated from.
No doubt there are unsavoury elements within both sets of supporters but I still maintain my view as stated previously.

Flash, I’m with you on this thread..there is a difference between the origins of the old firm beliefs and songs..

The anti Catholicism stuff is still live across a chunk of the community. The other side are more focussed on Irish issues than anti- Protestant views ..not saying it won’t pop up, but it’s not a big thing.

That said, most involved have little understanding of the history of the oppressed nature of the Irish and catholic population in Scotland ....nowadays both sides use it more as a way of hating the other side , rather than the origins of the divide, when there was appalling bigotry rampant through the country ..

[Andy74]

I can say with absolute certainty that none of those who I spend time with and who sing the nonsense they sing and hold the views they do were an oppressed minority. And if it was historic that gives absolutely no right or relevance to singing such bile in the 21st century.

What do you make of Flower of Scotland?

[Keith_M]

I'd imagine there's a long discussion to be had on relation to which club is the worst, what genuine efforts either side have taken to eradicates sectarianism or which group of fans is the most bigoted. But those discussions invariably distract from the actual problem, and there's a real danger of whataboutery.

I think we can all agree, though, that it's disgusting that sectarianism still exists in this day and age and that so little is said or done about it.


As an aside, I actually found an article in the daily Record, of all places, where somebody dared to discuss sectarianism in Scottish Football and even mention Rangers and Celtc. While there may be some parts of it that people disagree with, I applaud the fact that he dared to even write the article.

Celtic and Rangers sectarian chants are reported weekly but ignored by league chiefs - Gordon Waddell
(https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-rangers-sectarian-chants-reported-14041759)

[Keith_M]

What do you make of Flower of Scotland?


OMG, here we go again, whittabootery.

:rolleyes:



A perfect example of what I mentioned in the post above.

[Andy74]

OMG, here we go again, whittabootery.

:rolleyes:



A perfect example of what I mentioned in the post above.

It’s context and if we want to tackle it then it is important to understand what we are talking about.

I think with sectarianism people throw in a number of things that are not actually sectarian.

Might have nothing to do with football of course and nothing to do with Scotland but most of the things that Celtic fans sing about has to do with historical freedom from oppression, much in the same way that Scotland’s same struggle with England is captured in the Flower of Scotland.

This has very little to do with actively hating a section of society now.

People tend to throw in anything to do with Ireland as being sectarian and that singing about 1916 for example has anything to do with the 1970s and onwards IRA.

Having lived and worked in Dublin and Belfast these things are not necessarily linked.

It is complex and it is why it is difficult to handle.

[nonshinyfinish]

What do you make of Flower of Scotland?

Parochial, backward looking and mildly embarrassing.

[hibbysam]

Flash, I’m with you on this thread..there is a difference between the origins of the old firm beliefs and songs..

The anti Catholicism stuff is still live across a chunk of the community. The other side are more focussed on Irish issues than anti- Protestant views ..not saying it won’t pop up, but it’s not a big thing.

That said, most involved have little understanding of the history of the oppressed nature of the Irish and catholic population in Scotland ....nowadays both sides use it more as a way of hating the other side , rather than the origins of the divide, when there was appalling bigotry rampant through the country ..

Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

[OstKurve Hibs]

Maybe the sfa and all the clubs are scared to speak up about the bigoted bile spouted from the old firm and taking some kind of stance, but once we are allowed to attend games again there is nothing stoppin supporters of other clubs exiting the stadium en Masse to make a stand against it. I'm pretty sure that would get attention around the world and possibly even shame the s.f.a/government into action.

[Brizo]

Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

I'd maintain that in an essentially secular 21st century Scotland these Catholic and Protestant labels are just that, tribal labels each side attaches to themselves. There may have been a time when a majority of Rangers fans went to the kirk and a majority of Celtic fans went to mass but those days are long gone. I doubt many Rangers fans could name the Moderator of the COS or many Celtic fans know that today's the feast of the epiphany.

Which makes the continuation of this nonsense all the more bizarre. Religious divisions once existed in Manchester and Liverpool, which have similar demographics to the west of Scotland, but they disappeared in the middle of the last century. There may have been a time when the OF reflected divisions in Scottish society but I think nowadays they perpetuate views that have pretty much died out everywhere apart from the football stands.

[superfurryhibby]

I'd maintain that in an essentially secular 21st century Scotland these Catholic and Protestant labels are just that, tribal labels each side attaches to themselves. There may have been a time when a majority of Rangers fans went to the kirk and a majority of Celtic fans went to mass but those days are long gone. I doubt many Rangers fans could name the Moderator of the COS or many Celtic fans know that today's the feast of the epiphany.

Which makes the continuation of this nonsense all the more bizarre. Religious divisions once existed in Manchester and Liverpool, which have similar demographics to the west of Scotland, but they disappeared in the middle of the last century. There may have been a time when the OF reflected divisions in Scottish society but I think nowadays they perpetuate views that have pretty much died out everywhere apart from the football stands.

I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

[hibbysam]

I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

And there aren’t any Irish republican marches are there? The previous poster is spot on though. Majority of them on both sides have no idea why they are marching or believing in and haven’t attended church in their puff.

Your point about how well represented they are, are you suggesting that employers still look at an application and hire/fire based on their religion? I’d suggest that’s total tosh unless there are facts and figures to back that up.

[bigwheel]

Irish issues, in Glasgow, Scotland... I’m sure we can see how little that has to do with Scottish football, and Scottish society. And I can assure you the comments they make and the songs they sing are clear in their anti Protestant nature.

It’s easy to say it’s no big deal when it doesn’t affect you, or you don’t hear it every day, but to many it is a big deal, just like the anti catholic stance is a big deal also. There is no place for any hatred in the world, especially when it comes to religion or nationality.

I hesitate to respond - as it’s not a topic which is ever going to see views converge ...The “no place for hate points” I agree with ..I made reference to this being more about hate than anything else in the post you responded to.

Flash’s points (uncomfortable as they may read) are important history and context imo- these are not just Irish issues - religious persecution existed in Scotland for centuries. Catholic’s have been a often picked on, isolated minority since the reformation , in the 16th century ..that’s why (if I understand him
Correctly) he referenced the oppressed and the oppressors..because it is true for many since football was organised in Scotland in the late 1800s.

there is still a sizeable(but reducing) anti catholic sentiment in some parts of our population. There may be some equivalent the other way around, But it’s never been institutionalised in society in the way anti-catholic behaviour was throughout Scotland for many many years. There has been many books and text exploring this topic ..

Either way, I guess from a macro-point you are right . It remains a blight of Scottish Society, and the football clubs of Glasgow are fuel to that fire..they have never really wanted to eradicate it, in fact they continue to exploit it .

Mind you , last time I pulled someone up about it was a young St Johnstone fan at Haymarket station after we beat them in the semi at tynecastle shouting “dirty fenian b’s” to a group of young Hibs fans on the other platform ..

[hibbysam]

I hesitate to respond - as it’s not a topic which is ever going to see views converge ...The “no place for hate points” I agree with ..I made reference to this being more about hate than anything else in the post you responded to.

Flash’s points (uncomfortable as they may read) are important history and context imo- these are not just Irish issues - religious persecution existed in Scotland for centuries. Catholic’s have been a often picked on, isolated minority since the reformation , in the 16th century ..that’s why (if I understand him
Correctly) he referenced the oppressed and the oppressors..because it is true for many since football was organised in Scotland in the late 1800s.

there is still a sizeable(but reducing) anti catholic sentiment in some parts of our population. There may be some equivalent the other way around, But it’s never been institutionalised in society in the way anti-catholic behaviour was throughout Scotland for many many years. There has been many books and text exploring this topic ..

Either way, I guess from a macro-point you are right . It remains a blight of Scottish Society, and the football clubs of Glasgow are fuel to that fire..they have never really wanted to eradicate it, in fact they continue to exploit it .

Mind you , last time I pulled someone up about it was a young St Johnstone fan at Haymarket station after we beat them in the semi at tynecastle shouting “dirty fenian b’s” to a group of young Hibs fans on the other platform ..

I actually agree with many of your points, but the original point of the thread was regarding football clubs reporting instances in and around football grounds, and the majority of sectarianism in Scotland these days are linked to football. I’ve no doubt a huge number of folk I know that attend orange walks wouldn’t do so if it wasn’t so engrained in the way of a Rangers fan. Likewise I’ve no doubt majority of those that attend Irish republican marches wouldn’t do so if it wasn’t so engrained in the way of a Celtic fan.

The main point being that their supports are so huge because of their religious divides and it’s the same on both sides.

There is hate in all countries and walks of life, our society is no different and it would exist without football, but IMO nowhere near the issue that it is today.

[Brizo]

I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

I can only compare my parent's experience, my experience, and my grown-up children's experience.

My parents were children in the 30s and experienced the full effect of anti-Catholicism from being verbally abused and spat at in the street by adults, they saw their Dads and Uncles guarding St Pats against potential attack by mobs, and post-war both my parents experienced "what school did you go to" job discrimination.

As a kid in the 60s and 70s, I got sectarian abuse from other kids due to my school blazer and school fitba strip. Way back in the day I've had comments about my very Irish surname but nothing like what my parents experienced. No job-related discrimination and the only sectarian abuse I've received in the last couple of decades has been as part of the collective Hibs support.

My grown-up kids didn't receive any verbal or physical abuse from other kids when walking to Catholic Primary or High School or when representing those schools at sport. No comments over their surnames and no job discrimination in their post-school work careers.

I personally think you're over-estimating the impact of sectarianism outside football in 21st century Scotland and having worked on government contracts for a large part of my working life I've encountered plenty of Catholics in positions of power and authority.

We'll just have to agree to disagree :aok:

[superfurryhibby]

And there aren’t any Irish republican marches are there? The previous poster is spot on though. Majority of them on both sides have no idea why they are marching or believing in and haven’t attended church in their puff.

Your point about how well represented they are, are you suggesting that employers still look at an application and hire/fire based on their religion? I’d suggest that’s total tosh unless there are facts and figures to back that up.

Yes, Irish republican marches probably exist, but I have to say that there hasn’t been one in Edinburgh for many years. Compared to the frequency of Orange Walks, they are an irrelevance.

I would also point Irish Republicanism is a political issue, not a religious one.

You obviously don’t understand my point, I mentioned that Catholics ( and no doubt other groups) are underrepresented in certain institutions. I specifically named the Police, Judiciary and Politics. I don’t have the statistics, it’s anecdotal, just like your observations. Injust happen to think mine are right and yours aren’t.

I would add, in response to Brizo’s previous point. Society has changed. There is more diversity everywhere. However, the are still barriers in the institutions I mentioned.

[Keith_M]

...

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

...



There have been some FoI requests in this regards previously about Police Scotland but, as they don't require the individual to state their religion when applying, the exact numbers are obviously hard to come by.

However, the figures supplied for the year of the initial formation (April - Dec, 2013) of the Unified Police Service in Scotland were as follows.





Police Officers
Staff


CofS
58
8


RC
44
9


Hindu
0
0


Muslim
0
1


Sikh
0
2


Jewish
0
0


Buddhist
0
0


Christian (other)
0
15


No Religion
129
15


Chose not to disclose
41
17




https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/186545/response/463352/attach/html/3/IM%20FOI%202013%201606%20Response.pdf.html

[gbhibby]

As long as these two clubs exist and the turnstiles keep clicking this behaviour will continue indefinitely. I have been going to football for nearly sixty years and nothing much has changed apart from Rangers signing catholics. Let them both fester in their own pits. I have heard sectarian comments made by supporters of our club and also other clubs Hearts being the worst. Nobody is born a bigot.

[superfurryhibby]

There have been some FoI requests in this regards previously about Police Scotland but, as they don't require the individual to state their religion when applying, the exact numbers are obviously hard to come by.

However, the figures supplied for the year of the initial formation (April - Dec, 2013) of the Unified Police Service in Scotland were as follows.





Police Officers
Staff


CofS
58
8


RC
44
9


Hindu
0
0


Muslim
0
1


Sikh
0
2


Jewish
0
0


Buddhist
0
0


Christian (other)
0
15


No Religion
129
15


Chose not to disclose
41
17




https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/186545/response/463352/attach/html/3/IM%20FOI%202013%201606%20Response.pdf.html

Interesting. This is for newly recruited Police Officers. From that Catholic Polis are well represented, Moslem's not so much.

I should have clarified, I was referring to higher echelons of these institutions. I would also add the military as another example where I would guess that Catholics are under represented amongst the officer class.

[Keith_M]

Interesting. This is for newly recruited Police Officers. From that Catholic Polis are well represented, Moslem's not so much.

I should have clarified, I was referring to higher echelons of these institutions. I would also add the military as another example where I would guess that Catholics are under represented amongst the officer class.


It's really hard to tell, mate, but I thought it encouraging that at least new recruits are being given a fair chance.


As you say, we really don't know what goes on in other areas and I'm sure we all agree that religious discrimination is unacceptable.

:aok:

[CMurdoch]

I can only compare my parent's experience, my experience, and my grown-up children's experience.

My parents were children in the 30s and experienced the full effect of anti-Catholicism from being verbally abused and spat at in the street by adults, they saw their Dads and Uncles guarding St Pats against potential attack by mobs, and post-war both my parents experienced "what school did you go to" job discrimination.

As a kid in the 60s and 70s, I got sectarian abuse from other kids due to my school blazer and school fitba strip. Way back in the day I've had comments about my very Irish surname but nothing like what my parents experienced. No job-related discrimination and the only sectarian abuse I've received in the last couple of decades has been as part of the collective Hibs support.

My grown-up kids didn't receive any verbal or physical abuse from other kids when walking to Catholic Primary or High School or when representing those schools at sport. No comments over their surnames and no job discrimination in their post-school work careers.

I personally think you're over-estimating the impact of sectarianism outside football in 21st century Scotland and having worked on government contracts for a large part of my working life I've encountered plenty of Catholics in positions of power and authority.

We'll just have to agree to disagree :aok:

Two great posts Brizo.
My experience is that nobody cares about your religion/school other than when you have your football scarf on.
Certainly never an issue at work.
I do find it impossible to be outraged by the guys shouting at the Celtic players in the clip although it would be helpful if they could be sterilised as it doesn't seem right that they should be someones dad. A crayon eating human with a cock does not a parent make.

As for those folk that are interested in marching about the streets playing out of tune whilst wearing ill fitting colourful uniforms and white socks. They are almost certainly supporters of one of Scotland's football clubs. In 21st Century Scotland, sectarianism, in all it's forms, like racism, is generally a hobby for dafties and inadequates and their desperate attempts to be relevant ......... to other halfwits. A strange mating ritual if you will. More to be pitied than scolded as Connolly would have said................Billy that is.
Normal folk barely know they exist and the only reason you and I do is the football. I've always found them to be easily outwitted and avoided except in their own back yard and for that reason will continue to avoid Ibrox & Parkhead where they are found in unfeasibly large numbers.
Sadly the money swallowing monsters that are SPFL football clubs, including our own, will keep taking their money and that means the rest of us have to keep sharing stadiums with them, their songs, their national flags, their culture and their roots for the foreseeable future.

[Scott Allan Key]

It's really hard to tell, mate, but I thought it encouraging that at least new recruits are being given a fair chance.


As you say, we really don't know what goes on in other areas and I'm sure we all agree that religious discrimination is unacceptable.

:aok:Your figures go to show how non-Christian religions are under represented. The real and existing problem today is that kind of discrimination.

Sectarian prejudice only really exists now between Celtic and Rangers as a football matter in Scotland. It's no longer the shooting duck season for Catholics in other areas of life.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

[superfurryhibby]

Two great posts Brizo.
My experience is that nobody cares about your religion/school other than when you have your football scarf on.
Certainly never an issue at work.
I do find it impossible to be outraged by the guys shouting at the Celtic players in the clip although it would be helpful if they could be sterilised as it doesn't seem right that they should be someones dad. A crayon eating human with a cock does not a parent make.

As for those folk that are interested in marching about the streets playing out of tune whilst wearing ill fitting colourful uniforms and white socks. They are almost certainly supporters of one of Scotland's football clubs. In 21st Century Scotland, sectarianism, in all it's forms, like racism, is generally a hobby for dafties and inadequates and their desperate attempts to be relevant ......... to other halfwits. A strange mating ritual if you will. More to be pitied than scolded as Connolly would have said................Billy that is.
Normal folk barely know they exist and the only reason you and I do is the football. I've always found them to be easily outwitted and avoided except in their own back yard and for that reason will continue to avoid Ibrox & Parkhead where they are found in unfeasibly large numbers.
Sadly the money swallowing monsters that are SPFL football clubs, including our own, will keep taking their money and that means the rest of us have to keep sharing stadiums with them, their songs, their national flags, their culture and their roots for the foreseeable future.

These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/examination-evidence-sectarianism-scotland-2015-update/pages/3/

[Peevemor]

These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

The 1st Mrs Peeve had an uncle & cousins in Broxburn who were mad for it. The flute band and marching season was a huge part of their lives.

[madhibby]

These “dafties” have jobs and people know they exist because the small towns of West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Fife and Ayrshire see them marching on their streets every July. West Lothian definitely had issues with members of the council and an MP they elected to Westminster being members of Orange Lodges and openly participating in marches. These guys weren’t without influence.

There have long been issues within the Labour Party in particular ( I don’t suppose the Tories have had much history of being elected in these areas over the past 40 years).

I’m not saying that Sectarianism is operating as openly as it did in the past, but it’s a bit more than just the football.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/examination-evidence-sectarianism-scotland-2015-update/pages/3/

It seems to be far too easy to attribute blame for sectarianism in Scotland to the Labour Party. I remember the Orange Order/Rangers supporters claiming Glasgow Council is full of Catholics cause all the Labour Councillors are Catholics. And then they look at the last however many Lord Provosts of Glasgow and suggest they are all Catholics and they get the position due to their religion/catholics sticking together etc!

[Pretty Boy]

I often wonder how many younger people join the Orange Order or Flute Bands (often mistakenly identified as being one and the same) because they really want to. How many of us support Hibs because of parental influence? How many of us were enrolled in organisations like Scouts, BBs and the like by our parents? It stands to reason that the same thing happens with institutions like the OO.

I'd broadly agree with the arguments that sectarianism is far less prevalent in society than it once was. In the most formal terms that could be exemplified by the Accession Declaration now being worded as pro Protestant rather than an avowed denunciation of transubstantiation, the Virgin Mary and the veneration of the Saints and thus an attack on the very essence of Catholicism. In more practical terms I don't think people are routinely denied work based on their faith anymore, that certainly wasn't the case only a few decades ago. In terms of worship since the Catholic Emancipation Act the likes of the Test Act and Act of Uniformity are largely irrelevant. Catholics can celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass freely and hierarchies in Scotland and England have long been restored.

We tend to view religious tension in Scotland through the prism of Catholics v Protestants. In reality large chunks of our history since the reformation are typified by Protestants fighting with and killing other Protestants. Calvin and Knox would have been affronted by the religious practices of the Episcopal British monarch who is so beloved of their Presbyterian ancestors in Scotland.

The avowed aim of the likes of the Orange Order or the Scottish Reformation Society is to defend the Protestant faith. Historically that was borne out of a fear of Catholic insurrection and a return to the the practices of the Catholic Church which they had rejected. I can't really see how that is relevant today, the established church in Scotland is a Presbyterian Church that adheres to the Westminster Confession. There is no threat to it from the Catholic, Episcopalian or other minority Christian congregations in Scotland (the biggest threat to all faiths in Scotland would appear to be secularism and atheism imo). Their freedom to worship is inherently protected. So that brings us back to the question of why people join these organisations? A celebration of Protestantism or a celebration of anti Catholicism and mourning the loss of the societal discrimination from which they once benefitted?

[Keith_M]

... rather than an avowed denunciation of transubstantiation, the Virgin Mary and the veneration of the Saints and thus an attack on the very essence of Catholicism....


Let's be honest, most of these 'Peepul' have no idea what any of those things are, let alone could explain them.

This is all about an inbuilt hatred of the opposing group based on how they see the situation in Northern Ireland... and how much they want to re-create that here.

The Roman Catholic church was a threat to Protestantism, when it viewed them as heretics and carried out large scale murders across Europe to eradicate that specific 'disease'. However, that was a long time ago and various religious hierarchies have since been forced to accept the existence of other religions.

It really is time that both sides stopped living in the past.

[hibbysam]

Let's be honest, most of these 'Peepul' have no idea what any of those things are, let alone could explain them.

This is all about an inbuilt hatred of the opposing group based on how they see the situation in Northern Ireland... and how much they want to re-create that here.

The Roman Catholic church was a threat to Protestantism, when it viewed them as heretics and carried out large scale murders across Europe to eradicate that specific 'disease'. However, that was a long time ago and various religious hierarchies have since been forced to accept the existence of other religions.

It really is time that both sides stopped living in the past.

Listened to this weeks open goal podcast that Barry Ferguson was on and he was talking about times walking down the street in Glasgow and getting religious abuse shouted across the street at him. It really is a blight on society that because someone is a footballer that you can hurtle all sorts of obscenities in the street towards them. Race, religion, nationality shouldn’t matter in any walk of life.

[superfurryhibby]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

[Sir David Gray]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

By living in a democratic country we have to accept that we will encounter things which we consider to be objectionable or indeed even offensive.

I think banning things like this will only cause the fringe elements of the Orange Order to become even more extreme. I believe people should have the right to freedom of expression, as long as that stays within the law and whilst I think it's sad that we still have this happening in Scotland in the 21st century, I do not think there are grounds to ban the actual marches themselves.

Some of the events at these marches however are problematic such as the deliberate provocation outside Roman Catholic churches and the misbehaviour relating to that should be dealt with appropriately.

[superfurryhibby]

By living in a democratic country we have to accept that we will encounter things which we consider to be objectionable or indeed even offensive.

I think banning things like this will only cause the fringe elements of the Orange Order to become even more extreme. I believe people should have the right to freedom of expression, as long as that stays within the law and whilst I think it's sad that we still have this happening in Scotland in the 21st century, I do not think there are grounds to ban the actual marches themselves.

Some of the events at these marches however are problematic such as the deliberate provocation outside Roman Catholic churches and the misbehaviour relating to that should be dealt with appropriately.

If the Orange Lodge was substituted for a group dedicated to the destruction of Islam or Judaism, would freedom of expression still apply?

[Sir David Gray]

If the Orange Lodge was substituted for a group dedicated to the destruction of Islam or Judaism, would freedom of expression still apply?

Any group dedicated to the destruction of others should not be allowed.

[superfurryhibby]

EIGHT MEN WERE ARRESTED on Saturday in Glasgow for sectarian offences after an Orange Order parade of a few hundred persons took place in the city.
https://randompublicjournal.com/2019/07/09/time-to-ban-the-orange-order/



On the same day somewhere in the region of ten thousand independence supporters marched through the town of Ayr without a single incident. Without fail, whenever and wherever they happen, Orange marches result in heightened tensions, binge drinking, and chauvinistic anti-Catholic hate speech, and violence. Any passing observer would be tempted to think there is something about this quasi-military showband organisation that creates this obnoxious mayhem, but every year spokesmen for the Order are wheeled out by the unionist media to deny its sectarianism and extol its virtues as a loyal institution for the celebration of Ulster Protestant culture.

Yet, we feel that we can’t ban these marches – that we can’t ban the organisation – because to do this would be illiberal, it wouldn’t be tolerant. Rubbish! If the Orange Order insisted on marching through the more affluent streets of Glasgow, insisting that they too were “the Queen’s highway,” they would have been banned decades ago. If their songs and their open hostility were directed against Jews or people of colour instead of Catholics, the government would have no option but to ban the organisation. So, why is this not the case when they are marching down working-class streets and abusing Catholics? Not only this, but why have local councils in Scotland been giving the Orange Order public funds? Just imagine if Tower Hamlets borough council in London gave £1,500 of taxpayers’ money to the BNP to support an anti-immigrant rally. There would be an outcry. But that’s not what happens in Scotland. It’s not what happens in the north of Ireland.

It is not intolerance to ban intolerant organisations and events. We do it all the time. This is why we don’t have an openly neo-Nazi fascist party. It is why hate preachers are silenced and refused entry into the country. It is why online paedophile rings are shut down and their members prosecuted. The intolerant and the intolerable are banned all the time without us becoming an intolerant society.

[ancient hibee]

The unionist media? Are you saying that those against independence are in favour of anti catholicism?

[Keith_M]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?


Yes, absolutely. I feel the same about the Irish Republican marches. My feelings toward these people is pretty much the same as how I feel about Far Right, Neo Nazi and White Power marches.

However, I can't imagine any government ever banning them.

What I think they could, and should, do is restrict the number of marches in Scotland, even if it's just on the grounds of the ridiculous cost.

[CMurdoch]

I think you are underestimating the continuing extent of sectarianism in wider society.

Places like West Lothian, Lanarkshire, Fife etc, etc. There are still plenty of active Orange Lodges, people go on marches and all the usual ****.

I worked in West Lothian for many years. There was a sitting MP , Tom Devine (I think he was called) who was deeply involved in the Orange Lodge. Local Councillors, like the bam from Whitburn ( I won't name him), giving me a Masonic handshake on meeting him. Later involved in contract scandal issues and favouring those with the same beliefs during tendering processes.

Institutions like the Police, the Judiciary and Politics. How well represented are Catholics in public life and in the establishment hierarchy?

Things have changed, but sectarianism remains as a issue out side of football.

I just think you give all this stuff too much space in your head.
I live in Edinburgh so banjo players in West Lothian and Lanarkshire etc don't mean anything to me.

I know about 10 retired Edinburgh cops who are season ticket holders at Easter Road. I have had brief conversations with them over the years about stuff like Orange Walks, The James Connolly March etc. They saw them both as attention seeking pains in the arse who shouldn't be allowed to march in Edinburgh. As for the masons they said there were a few Edinburgh cops in the masons and their colleagues ripped the piss out of them for it at every opportunity. Certainly said nothing about their careers being affected by their religion.

Humans are always scheming for power, influence, position and money and I always thought folk who joined the masons were schemers. I think they join in the hope of improving their career prospects by networking, getting help from other members etc. Either that or it's another way to avoid their wives. All seems pretty tedious to me. The organisation maybe has loftier ambitions but I suspect the members just want to use it for their own betterment.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

No.

It would smack of Thatcher's attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". That merely made a nonsense out of things, and arguably gave them even more publicity.

[Keith_M]

No.

It would smack of Thatcher's attempts to deny Sinn Fein "the oxygen of publicity". That merely made a nonsense out of things, and arguably gave them even more publicity.


What about restricting the location of their marches to empty fields in Lanarkshire?

[The Harp Awakes]

EIGHT MEN WERE ARRESTED on Saturday in Glasgow for sectarian offences after an Orange Order parade of a few hundred persons took place in the city.
https://randompublicjournal.com/2019/07/09/time-to-ban-the-orange-order/



On the same day somewhere in the region of ten thousand independence supporters marched through the town of Ayr without a single incident. Without fail, whenever and wherever they happen, Orange marches result in heightened tensions, binge drinking, and chauvinistic anti-Catholic hate speech, and violence. Any passing observer would be tempted to think there is something about this quasi-military showband organisation that creates this obnoxious mayhem, but every year spokesmen for the Order are wheeled out by the unionist media to deny its sectarianism and extol its virtues as a loyal institution for the celebration of Ulster Protestant culture.

Yet, we feel that we can’t ban these marches – that we can’t ban the organisation – because to do this would be illiberal, it wouldn’t be tolerant. Rubbish! If the Orange Order insisted on marching through the more affluent streets of Glasgow, insisting that they too were “the Queen’s highway,” they would have been banned decades ago. If their songs and their open hostility were directed against Jews or people of colour instead of Catholics, the government would have no option but to ban the organisation. So, why is this not the case when they are marching down working-class streets and abusing Catholics? Not only this, but why have local councils in Scotland been giving the Orange Order public funds? Just imagine if Tower Hamlets borough council in London gave £1,500 of taxpayers’ money to the BNP to support an anti-immigrant rally. There would be an outcry. But that’s not what happens in Scotland. It’s not what happens in the north of Ireland.

It is not intolerance to ban intolerant organisations and events. We do it all the time. This is why we don’t have an openly neo-Nazi fascist party. It is why hate preachers are silenced and refused entry into the country. It is why online paedophile rings are shut down and their members prosecuted. The intolerant and the intolerable are banned all the time without us becoming an intolerant society.

Good post and agree with all of your points.

The only thing I'd add is that the Westminster Government aren't exactly in a good place to act independently on sectarian related matters. They continue to uphold The Act of Settlement which openly discriminates against Catholics. Probably one of the most racist pieces of Government legislation which exists in the 'free' world.

[Sir David Gray]

No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

Agreed. :agree:

[gbhibby]

No. Freedom of expression must be protected, even if it's unpleasant. I would only ban marches which incite violence and would prefer to err on the side of protecting civil liberties. Clearly, the Orange marches are not merely an innocent form of worship, practiced by devout God-fearing Christians. For some involved, and certainly many of the spectators, they provide an opportunity to antagonise and intimidate: 'this is our country'. That said, I could not support a blanket ban, as I don't believe that Orange marches meet the threshold required in terms of fomenting violence. A possible consequence of banning them would be to martyr them and make them victims, which could be counterproductive.

I was going for a paper in the main street of Tranent one Saturday only to be met by the hoards of mobile orangmen who were marching. There were 5 bus loads of them including their entourage many of the entourage were women. Overheard them saying this was the first of four marches they were taking part in that day they were going to west lothian after Tranent. Police were in attendance. I thought do they pay for the policing of these events. Let them march but only through Larkhall don't want them anywhere near me.

[Lendo]

I was going for a paper in the main street of Tranent one Saturday only to be met by the hoards of mobile orangmen who were marching. There were 5 bus loads of them including their entourage many of the entourage were women. Overheard them saying this was the first of four marches they were taking part in that day they were going to west lothian after Tranent. Police were in attendance. I thought do they pay for the policing of these events. Let them march but only through Larkhall don't want them anywhere near me.

I’ve never fully understood the Orange Marches links/connects with Tranent and Prestonpans. Anyone know?

[Keith_M]

I’ve never fully understood the Orange Marches links/connects with Tranent and Prestonpans. Anyone know?


Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge

[gbhibby]

Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge
Apparently there is a Lodge in Tranent

[Keith_M]

Apparently there is a Lodge in Tranent


You learn something new every day

:greengrin

[Peevemor]

Don't know about Tranent but a lot of Miners moved through from the West of Scotland in the early part of the last century and moved to Prestonpans.

At one point, 'The Pans' was quite divided between Catholic and Protestant and is one of the few places I know of in East Lothian and Midlothian to still have an Orange Lodge

Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything. :greengrin

[Yorkshire HFC]

Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything. :greengrin

What a depressing thread.

[Since90+2]

To me it's always seemed as though Rangers have a genuine issue with religious sectarianism and a good proportion (but not all by any means) of their fans are anti Catholic whereas Celtic seems to be less about religion more anti Britishness/pro Irish republicanism.

Neither is welcome in Scottish football but I do think there is a clear distinction between the two.

[Peevemor]

What a depressing thread.

I'm no sociologist but it seems to be human nature. Some people are drawn to it more than others, and in some cases there are people pulling strings to their own ends, but we've been tribal and found reasons to fight since before records began.

[The Count]

What about restricting the location of their marches to empty fields in Lanarkshire?

Talking of empty fields i used to know i guy who lived opposite a field in Bathgate designated for a new Catholic school.He was woken up one morning by an Orange Lodge Band marching up a down a knee length grass field playing there tunes.

[Jones28]

Would anyone be in favour of banning Orange marches in Scotland?

I don't want them banned. My own observation is that the last time I saw an Orange walk it was when I lived in Airth, the band was the main body of the march and the people partaking were all older and 90% male.

I want them to keep going until the only people left are these guys when theyre in their 80's, shuffling through the streets of small-town Central Scotland with people shutting their doors and curtains.

[The Harp Awakes]

I don't want them banned. My own observation is that the last time I saw an Orange walk it was when I lived in Airth, the band was the main body of the march and the people partaking were all older and 90% male.

I want them to keep going until the only people left are these guys when theyre in their 80's, shuffling through the streets of small-town Central Scotland with people shutting their doors and curtains.

I can see the arguments for and against banning orange marches.

What worries me more is the local authorities approach to these marches and also the policing of them. The Pans march, along with many other marches, are deliberately routed to pass by Catholic churches. In the case of the Pans one they walk past the chapel in Newbigging, Musselburgh on the Saturday morning, do all stuff they do during the day, and then return to march past the chapel again 6-7 p.m. on the Saturday evening. The timing of their return coincides with evening mass in the chapel at which point the march has been witnessed to halt and up their volume.

How East Lothian council and the police agree to this clear intimidation is concerning.

[easty]

I can see the arguments for and against banning orange marches.

What worries me more is the local authorities approach to these marches and also the policing of them. The Pans march, along with many other marches, are deliberately routed to pass by Catholic churches. In the case of the Pans one they walk past the chapel in Newbigging, Musselburgh on the Saturday morning, do all stuff they do during the day, and then return to march past the chapel again 6-7 p.m. on the Saturday evening. The timing of their return coincides with evening mass in the chapel at which point the march has been witnessed to halt and up their volume.

How East Lothian council and the police agree to this clear intimidation is concerning.

To be fair, it’s probably what Jesus wanted, and that’s the whole point of the march...right?

[The Harp Awakes]

To be fair, it’s probably what Jesus wanted, and that’s the whole point of the march...right?

Sorry mate, totally lost me there.

[gbhibby]

Was there not always aggro between top Pans & bottom Pans as well (not to mention the Panners & the Tanners).

These bams will fight about anything. :greengrin
This thread is about sectarianism so what is your point caller.

[Peevemor]

This thread is about sectarianism so what is your point caller.Sorry. I'll check with you what I can post in future.

[gbhibby]

You learn something new every day

:greengrin
I was surprised as well found the history of it on Internet

.

[Baader]

To be fair, it’s probably what Jesus wanted, and that’s the whole point of the march...right?

Eh?? 🤣🤣🤣

[Keith_M]

Eh?? 🤣🤣🤣


I think the point is that they're claiming to be Christians, which is quite a stretch of the imagination.

[EI255]

Talking of empty fields i used to know i guy who lived opposite a field in Bathgate designated for a new Catholic school.He was woken up one morning by an Orange Lodge Band marching up a down a knee length grass field playing there tunes.The Orange marches are simply events for narrow minded people who still think they are 13 and refuse to grow up. Embarrassing themselves. Let them get on with it! [emoji1787]

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[gbhibby]

Talking of empty fields i used to know i guy who lived opposite a field in Bathgate designated for a new Catholic school.He was woken up one morning by an Orange Lodge Band marching up a down a knee length grass field playing there tunes.
At least they were knee deep in something different than the usual.