Incident in PSG v Istanbul game

[calumhibee1]

Apologies for derailing the non Hibs game thread on the main board. As Northernhibee said, it's probably a thread for the Holy Ground.

A member of the Istanbul staff had done something to merit one of the assistants making the referee aware of their conduct - I'm actually not sure what the original incident was. In pointing out what member of staff had committed the offence, the assistant has said, in Romanian, that it was the black guy. He was the only black member of staff on the bench where everyone was wearing next to the same thing, so it's probably fair to say that if you don't know the guys name then it's probably the stand out differentiating feature. Black in Romanian is 'negru'.

The players walked off the pitch and the game was abandoned with players on the TV shouting at the assistant calling him racist. Demba Ba was shown on TV declaring that you wouldn't call a white person the white guy, so I think it's safe to assume that the issue wasn't that the word negru has been mistaken for negro but the issue is that he was described as the black guy. The assistant is now being held up around the world as being a racist and there's probably a good chance his career is over.

What's everyones thoughts on this? Racist or not?

[CapitalGreen]

Apologies for derailing the non Hibs game thread on the main board. As Northernhibee said, it's probably a thread for the Holy Ground.

A member of the Istanbul staff had done something to merit one of the assistants making the referee aware of their conduct - I'm actually not sure what the original incident was. In pointing out what member of staff had committed the offence, the assistant has said, in Romanian, that it was the black guy. Black in Romanian is 'negru'.

The players walked off the pitch and the game was abandoned with players on the TV shouting at the assistant calling him racist. He's also being held up around the world as being a racist.

What's everyones thoughts on this? Racist or not?

Just to correct the dialog, a prominent Romanian sports journalist has confirmed it as being the following:
“The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it's not poasible to act like that.”

Source: https://twitter.com/emishor/status/1336414353906659328?s=21

I always try to think about these situations in the context of my own workplace. If someone approached me from another team and asked where a colleague sat, would it be appropriate for me to point them out by saying “the black one over there”.

Is it appropriate? Definitely not.
Is it racist? I’d say from my vantage point not intentionally so.

[Sir David Gray]

If there's nothing more to it than what's already been reported then not.

In my opinion putting so much focus on such an apparent non-story detracts from the serious message that the football authorities are trying to put out there in tackling genuine racism within the game.

Having said that, I reserve the right to change my stance if more information comes to light but based on what I've heard so far it's way over the top. I feel sorry for the official whose career at the top level is in tatters and who will likely be made an example of by UEFA.

[calumhibee1]

Just to correct the dialog, a prominent Romanian sports journalist has confirmed it as being the following:
“The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it's not poasible to act like that.”

Source: https://twitter.com/emishor/status/1336414353906659328?s=21

I always try to think about these situations in the context of my own workplace. If someone approached me from another team and asked where a colleague sat, would it be appropriate for me to point them out by saying “the black one over there”.

Is it appropriate? Definitely not.
Is it racist? I’d say from my vantage point not intentionally so.

Apologies, I should have said that I was paraphrasing, thanks for providing the full comment.

In a situation where everybody is dressed the same, everybody is the same gender and there's not a lot to go on when it comes to pointing someone out I don't think it's in any way, shape or form racist. There was absolutely nothing derogatory about the way he said it. It was simply a factual description of a persons appearance.

[CropleyWasGod]

Apologies, I should have said that I was paraphrasing, thanks for providing the full comment.

In a situation where everybody is dressed the same, everybody is the same gender and there's not a lot to go on when it comes to pointing someone out I don't think it's in any way, shape or form racist. There was absolutely nothing derogatory about the way he said it. It was simply a factual description of a persons appearance.

In the environment that we're in, a simple "the third one along" would have been a smarter thing to say.

[CapitalGreen]

In the environment that we're in, a simple "the third one along" would have been a smarter thing to say.

I remember when pointing with your finger used to be sufficient for pointing somebody out.

[calumhibee1]

If there's nothing more to it than what's already been reported then not.

In my opinion putting so much focus on such an apparent non-story detracts from the serious message that the football authorities are trying to put out there in tackling genuine racism within the game.

Having said that, I reserve the right to change my stance if more information comes to light but based on what I've heard so far it's way over the top. I feel sorry for the official whose career at the top level is in tatters and who will likely be made an example of by UEFA.

:agree: As do I.

Lets keep in mind this is big news. It's happened at the highest level of the most popular sport in the world. It's being reported all over the world with players filmed shouting at the official calling him racist, news outlets reporting that he's made a racist comment etc. When UEFA make an example of him because they wouldn't dream of 'letting him away with it', this guy will now be known as a racist. He will also most likely lose his job.

The over reaction could see not just the guys career in tatters, but also his life. Losing a job in such unjust circumstances and also being widely branded with one of the most undesirable labels you could be given could really destroy the guy. Something I think that needs to be remembered by folk who reckon everybody has the right to be offended by whatever they want. When it comes to people in such high profile situations, you could literally be ruining someones life by being 'offended' at something which is factual, totally innocent and was said with absolutely no negative connotations attached to it.

[calumhibee1]

In the environment that we're in, a simple "the third one along" would have been a smarter thing to say.

In hindsight it absolutely would have been and all this could of course have been avoided.

[CropleyWasGod]

I remember when pointing with your finger used to be sufficient for pointing somebody out.

That would be rude.:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Apologies for derailing the non Hibs game thread on the main board. As Northernhibee said, it's probably a thread for the Holy Ground.

A member of the Istanbul staff had done something to merit one of the assistants making the referee aware of their conduct - I'm actually not sure what the original incident was. In pointing out what member of staff had committed the offence, the assistant has said, in Romanian, that it was the black guy. He was the only black member of staff on the bench where everyone was wearing next to the same thing, so it's probably fair to say that if you don't know the guys name then it's probably the stand out differentiating feature. Black in Romanian is 'negru'.

The players walked off the pitch and the game was abandoned with players on the TV shouting at the assistant calling him racist. Demba Ba was shown on TV declaring that you wouldn't call a white person the white guy, so I think it's safe to assume that the issue wasn't that the word negru has been mistaken for negro but the issue is that he was described as the black guy. The assistant is now being held up around the world as being a racist and there's probably a good chance his career is over.

What's everyones thoughts on this? Racist or not?


Can't see the official walking away from this one. Why couldn't he say the guy second from right or with the beard or with the short hair or just point him out directly or any other way of picking him out?

[calumhibee1]

Can't see the official walking away from this one. Why couldn't he say the guy second from right or with the beard or with the short hair or just point him out directly or any other way of picking him out?

Agree, no way he'll be refereeing at this level again.

The easiest way was to point him out as exactly what he is - the black guy. Whilst I'm in no way suggesting the other ways are in any way difficult, we will generally always look for the easiest way to point someone out and that's by appearance and usually by the most obvious feature of their appearance. Not how many seats along on the bench they are

I've said it on the other thread, but what if it had been a female member of staff on a bench full of men? Would people be up in arms if the official had pointed out it was the woman that needed to be carded?

I know if I had a line up of people and every one of them was a brown haired man except for one blonde woman and someone wanted to point out the woman I'd be taken by surprise if they told me it was the blonde person, the shortest one or 5th from the left etc.

Same thing goes for if I had a line up of all one race except for one. I'd be taken by surprise if they chose to point out the 'exception' based on how many along etc when there's such an obvious differentiating feature.

[Andy74]

Can't see the official walking away from this one. Why couldn't he say the guy second from right or with the beard or with the short hair or just point him out directly or any other way of picking him out?

Because why would he? Describing a black person as black isn’t wrong or offensive.

[calumhibee1]

Because why would he? Describing a black person as black isn’t wrong or offensive.

That's the crux of it for me. Black is the accepted term to describe a black person. With that in mind, I can't see how someone being described as the black guy can be offensive. I'd understand the outrage if he'd been called the coloured guy or the dark guy.

[One Day Soon]

Because why would he? Describing a black person as black isn’t wrong or offensive.

Never mind anything else, if only because as CWG has pointed out above in the climate we live in differentiating someone by their skin colour is playing russian roulette with a bullet in pretty much all the chambers.

[CloudSquall]

The mock outrage mob won't miss an opportunity to be all over this.

[bigwheel]

Never mind anything else, if only because as CWG has pointed out above in the climate we live in differentiating someone by their skin colour is playing russian roulette with a bullet in pretty much all the chambers.

It is...but, and I’m someone who is often on here challenging people who’s views are not actively supporting anti-racism or causes against racism, I don’t see the term “black” as a discriminatory term. If that was used, then I don’t see how it is offensive. No more than white, ginger, short, tall, fat...it is simply a descriptive term..


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[G B Young]

That's the crux of it for me. Black is the accepted term to describe a black person. With that in mind, I can't see how someone being described as the black guy can be offensive. I'd understand the outrage if he'd been called the coloured guy or the dark guy.

I was under that impression too. This kind of furore is more common when it relates to somebody referring to 'a coloured person'.

Thought this wee piece was quite well written:

https://humanparts.medium.com/kindly-call-me-black-ab527d7fe432

[calumhibee1]

It is...but, and I’m someone who is often on here challenging people who’s views are not actively supporting anti-racism or causes against racism, I don’t see the term “black” as a discriminatory term. If that was used, then I don’t see how it is offensive. No more than white, ginger, short, tall, fat...it is simply a descriptive term..


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Some of the terms you have used as comparisons are more of an opinion rather than fact - someone being short, tall or fat is more of a subjective thing How short do you need to be to be short? How tall to be tall? What weight/waist size etc to be fat? I don't think anyone would say that it's a matter of opinion whether Webo is black or not which is one of the key things for me here. It was a factual description of him that made it instantly obvious who was the subject of the incident.

[One Day Soon]

It is...but, and I’m someone who is often on here challenging people who’s views are not actively supporting anti-racism or causes against racism, I don’t see the term “black” as a discriminatory term. If that was used, then I don’t see how it is offensive. No more than white, ginger, short, tall, fat...it is simply a descriptive term..


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The context will finish him. An apex televised football match, a bench that has just one black player, the year of BLM and the willingness of bodies like FIFA and UEFA to distace themselves from any commercial threat. We'll see.

[Dinkydoo]

The problem is, people HAVE been singled out by the colour of their skin for a long time and in an entirely derogatory manner. Therefore, it's understandable that folk might start losing it and a highly charged situation develops - especially with a potential language barrier complicating matters.

It's not a reason to continue crucifying the guy though and in the cold light of day, once everyone involved is aware of the transcript, I'd suggest that they probably owe him an apology and his job back. Maybe he should also be a bit wiser in the words he chooses to point somebody out at work in future, too.

[CropleyWasGod]

The context will finish him. An apex televised football match, a bench that has just one black player, the year of BLM and the willingness of bodies like FIFA and UEFA to distace themselves from any commercial threat. We'll see.
For me, a commitment to some retraining for the guy would be sufficient.

I can't help thinking about his nationality. Central and Eastern Europe seem to have more of an issue with racism, and IMO that's partly down to the lack of diversity in their societies. Recognising that, and acting accordingly in terms of education, would be a way forward for UEFA.

[bigwheel]

The context will finish him. An apex televised football match, a bench that has just one black player, the year of BLM and the willingness of bodies like FIFA and UEFA to distace themselves from any commercial threat. We'll see.

I don’t know the language and full details tbh...was he speaking in English ? If so, how good was his grammar...Has he used a term for “black” that is more open to discrimination....

If he he simply describing the player as Black...I still don’t see it as an offensive term..and as stated before I am among the first to jump on people deriding any anti racist actions discussed on here.


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[calumhibee1]

I don’t know the language and full details tbh...was he speaking in English ? If so, how good was his grammar...Has he used a term for “black” that is more open to discrimination....

If he he simply describing the player as Black...I still don’t see it as an offensive term..and as stated before I am among the first to jump on people deriding any anti racist actions discussed on here.


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From reports it seems like he was speaking in Romanian to the referee through his microphone. When confronted, he seemed to be speaking in English. The argument he was having with Demba Ba was in English and seemed to centre around the fact he'd called him the black person, not the use of the word 'negru' specifically. So I presume the issue wasn't a misunderstanding of the word 'negru' it would seem to be the fact that he was described as the black person.

[matty_f]

Because why would he? Describing a black person as black isn’t wrong or offensive.

Was the player offended?

IMHO, he clearly was.

[bigwheel]

From reports it seems like he was speaking in Romanian to the referee through his microphone. When confronted, he seemed to be speaking in English. The argument he was having with Demba Ba was in English and seemed to centre around the fact he'd called him the black person, not the use of the word 'negru' specifically. So I presume the issue wasn't a misunderstanding of the word 'negru' it would seem to be the fact that he was described as the black person.

Thanks...it sounds like the actual specific words, language and grammar will be key to really determine the meaning ...clearly it offended the guy. Wonder if there was discriminatory intent..


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[calumhibee1]

Was the player offended?

IMHO, he clearly was.

Where does this idea that everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended about stop? Or does it not stop?

I'd bet that Webo and Demba Ba would both say that Webo is a black man. Ba and the others involved last night being offended by a factually accurate and non-discriminatory, non-derogatory and non-aggressive statement will most likely have lost this guy his job. The official will now be branded (in fact the players already seen to it that he already has been when they were all shouting that he was a racist) as a racist having had his face plastered all over television all over the world. That's the guy lost his job and been given the label as a racist all over the world - one of the worst labels you can be given.

Should people have the right to be 'offended' over whatever they want when it's massively detrimental to somebody else's life? What if this has a major impact on the official? What if the official was to suffer from mental health issues on the back of this? What if he took his own life? Should we still just accept that because Demba Ba wants to kick up a fuss by someone being described as something that they have probably described themselves as hundreds of times that he has the right to do just that when it has the potential to have such dire consequences on the official? I've described plenty people as a black guy - be it an actor or a footballer I don't know the name of. I'd be sick to my stomach if on the back of that I had my face plastered all over the tv all over the world, lost my job and would never get another in the industry I've probably spent a long time in and branded a racist.

Someone on the thread on the main board suggested that if the referee gets sacked it will be UEFA and not the players that have got him sacked but it's absolutely the doing of the players who have declared him a racist. UEFA have been left in a position where they quite simply cannot back the guy anymore. He's got a label that their reactions have given him and it'll be stuck now, whether that's in regards to his refereeing career or even just his life outside of football. He's now the racist guy.

[matty_f]

Where does this idea that everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended about stop? Or does it not stop?

I'd bet that Webo and Demba Ba would both say that Webo is a black man. Ba and the others involved last night being offended by a factually accurate and non-discriminatory, non-derogatory and non-aggressive statement will most likely have lost this guy his job. The official will now be branded (in fact the players already seen to it that he already has been when they were all shouting that he was a racist) as a racist having had his face plastered all over television all over the world. That's the guy lost his job and been given the label as a racist all over the world - one of the worst labels you can be given.

Should people have the right to be 'offended' over whatever they want when it's massively detrimental to somebody else's life? What if this has a major impact on the official? What if the official was to suffer from mental health issues on the back of this? What if he took his own life? Should we still just accept that because Demba Ba wants to kick up a fuss by someone being described as something that they have probably described themselves as hundreds of times that he has the right to do just that when it has the potential to have such dire consequences on the official? I've described plenty people as a black guy - be it an actor or a footballer I don't know the name of. I'd be sick to my stomach if on the back of that I had my face plastered all over the tv all over the world, lost my job and branded a racist.

Someone on the thread on the main board suggested that if the referee gets sacked it will be UEFA and not the players that have got him sacked but it's absolutely the doing of the players who have declared him a racist. UEFA have been left in a position where they quite simply cannot back the guy anymore. He's got a label that their reactions have given him and it'll be stuck now, whether that's in regards to his refereeing career or even just his life outside of football. He's now the racist guy.

Who’s the decision maker on what’s offensive and what’s not?

Just to be sure i understand the point here, it’s the white guys telling the black guys again, isn’t it?

[calumhibee1]

Who’s the decision maker on what’s offensive and what’s not?

Just to be sure i understand the point here, it’s the white guys telling the black guys again, isn’t it?

Care to answer any of my points? Or you just going with the cop out generic ‘look at how righteous I am’ reply?

This man is about to lose his job because he described someone as something he will have described himself as hundreds of times - something which is the absolute stand out most obvious way to point Webo out on that bench last night. Something that is factually accurate. He’s also going to be branded as one of the worst things you can be branded as on TV and the internet all over the world. He’ll spend the rest of his life branded as a racist because Ba and Webo have taken offence’ at Webo being described exactly as he’d describe himself.

It’s a disgrace and a total injustice

[AugustaHibs]

Absolutely terrified to imagine what the world will be like in 10 years.

Fourth official should receive an official apology and Istanbul should be fined a fortune for bringing the game into disrepute

[calumhibee1]

Absolutely terrified to imagine what the world will be like in 10 years.

Fourth official should receive an official apology and Istanbul should be fined a fortune for bringing the game into disrepute

Still though, who’s the arbitrator of what’s offensive and all that. Got to let people be offended by anything and accept that you might lose your job over an absolutely nothing comment at some point in your life. :rolleyes:

I’m sure nobody on here will have any complaints when they get binned from their job for saying “I’ve got a woman on the line” to a colleague or something along those lines.

[RyeSloan]

Who’s the decision maker on what’s offensive and what’s not?

Just to be sure i understand the point here, it’s the white guys telling the black guys again, isn’t it?

Well John Barnes who is black (if I’m allowed to say that!) and has often been at the front of anti racism actions seems to think that calling a black person black is totally acceptable...

[matty_f]

Care to answer any of my points? Or you just going with the cop out generic ‘look at how righteous I am’ reply?

This man is about to lose his job because he described someone as something he will have described himself as hundreds of times. He’s also going to be branded as one of the worst things you can be branded as on TV and the internet all over the world. He’ll spend the rest of his life branded as a racist because Ba and Webo have taken offence’ at Webo being described exactly as he’d describe himself.

It’s a disgrace and a total injustice

He was annoyed because the 4th official identified him as the black guy, and his point was that the 4th official wouldn’t have described a white player as the white guy. He felt he was treated differently and the differentiation was the colour of his skin.

Whether the 4th official meant it to be racist, i very much doubt it, but it was clumsy and unnecessary and the player was well within his rights to call it out.

[matty_f]

Well John Barnes who is black (if I’m allowed to say that!) and has often been at the front of anti racism actions seems to think that calling a black person black is totally acceptable...

Context is everything.

[RyeSloan]

Context is everything.

And in this context has defended the official.

[calumhibee1]

He was annoyed because the 4th official identified him as the black guy, and his point was that the 4th official wouldn’t have described a white player as the white guy. He felt he was treated differently and the differentiation was the colour of his skin.

Whether the 4th official meant it to be racist, i very much doing it, but it was clumsy and unnecessary and the player was well within his rights to call it out.

So his point regarding whether he’d describe a white guy in the same situation as the white guy is utter speculation and the speculation is going to cost the official his job and any prospect of getting another one in the industry he works in and leave him branded a racist the rest of his life. Seems reasonable. I see no flaws in this idea that people can be offended by whatever they want to be offended by :rolleyes:

[AugustaHibs]

Racism is absolutely abhorrent but there’s an issue where it seems like people are so on edge regarding it that things that clearly aren’t intended as racist are being branded so

[matty_f]

So his point regarding whether he’d describe a white guy in the same situation as the white guy is utter speculation and the speculation is going to cost the official his job and any prospect of getting another one in the industry he works in and leave him branded a racist the rest of his life. Seems reasonable. I see no flaws in this idea that people can be offended by whatever they want to be offended by :rolleyes:

Are you speculating that the official will lose his job? The maximum punishment is a 10 game ban. That’s once it’s been investigated and if he’s deemed to have done anything wrong.

[bawheid]

He was annoyed because the 4th official identified him as the black guy, and his point was that the 4th official wouldn’t have described a white player as the white guy. He felt he was treated differently and the differentiation was the colour of his skin.

Whether the 4th official meant it to be racist, i very much doubt it, but it was clumsy and unnecessary and the player was well within his rights to call it out.

If a white guy was sitting on a bench with five black guys I might describe him as the white guy. Stuff like this does my head in as it detracts from the real fight against racism.

[calumhibee1]

Are you speculating that the official will lose his job? The maximum punishment is a 10 game ban. That’s once it’s been investigated and if he’s deemed to have done anything wrong.

I fully expect that the official involved will never be involved in a game at that level again and I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t referee again.

Hopefully common sense prevails and no punishment is handed out though.

[calumhibee1]

If a white guy was sitting on a bench with five black guys I might describe him as the white guy. Stuff like this does my head in as it detracts from the real fight against racism.

Yup. The argument that he wouldn’t have described a white guy in that situation as the white guy is frankly ridiculous.

[matty_f]

And in this context has defended the official.

I can understand why he would defend the official.

There is also a lot of support for the player involved.

Like i said, i don’t think the 4th official was intending to be racist or upset anyone, he clearly has though and people who have lived their life without having to think of anyone referring to them by the colour of their skin it probably does seem like a really trivial thing to get worked up about.

[matty_f]

If a white guy was sitting on a bench with five black guys I might describe him as the white guy. Stuff like this does my head in as it detracts from the real fight against racism.

I think a lot of folk would and i think a lot of whites guys wouldn’t get offended by it because they would probably be able to count the number of times in their life that they’ve been called “that white guy” on one hand.

I think that’s where the situations are incomparable.

[Sir David Gray]

Are you speculating that the official will lose his job? The maximum punishment is a 10 game ban. That’s once it’s been investigated and if he’s deemed to have done anything wrong.

The minimum punishment is a 10 match ban.

The maximum punishment is whatever UEFA want it to be.

Article 14 of UEFA's latest edition of discipline measures and procedures states that "any person under the scope of Article 3 who insults the human dignity of a person or group of persons on whatever grounds, including skin colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, gender or sexual orientation, incurs a suspension lasting at least 10 matches or a specified period of time, or any other appropriate sanction."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11820/12156149/sebastian-coltescu-fourth-official-in-paris-saint-germain-vs-istanbul-basaksehir-faces-10-match-ban

[Sir David Gray]

Where does this idea that everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended about stop? Or does it not stop?

I'd bet that Webo and Demba Ba would both say that Webo is a black man. Ba and the others involved last night being offended by a factually accurate and non-discriminatory, non-derogatory and non-aggressive statement will most likely have lost this guy his job. The official will now be branded (in fact the players already seen to it that he already has been when they were all shouting that he was a racist) as a racist having had his face plastered all over television all over the world. That's the guy lost his job and been given the label as a racist all over the world - one of the worst labels you can be given.

Should people have the right to be 'offended' over whatever they want when it's massively detrimental to somebody else's life? What if this has a major impact on the official? What if the official was to suffer from mental health issues on the back of this? What if he took his own life? Should we still just accept that because Demba Ba wants to kick up a fuss by someone being described as something that they have probably described themselves as hundreds of times that he has the right to do just that when it has the potential to have such dire consequences on the official? I've described plenty people as a black guy - be it an actor or a footballer I don't know the name of. I'd be sick to my stomach if on the back of that I had my face plastered all over the tv all over the world, lost my job and would never get another in the industry I've probably spent a long time in and branded a racist.

Someone on the thread on the main board suggested that if the referee gets sacked it will be UEFA and not the players that have got him sacked but it's absolutely the doing of the players who have declared him a racist. UEFA have been left in a position where they quite simply cannot back the guy anymore. He's got a label that their reactions have given him and it'll be stuck now, whether that's in regards to his refereeing career or even just his life outside of football. He's now the racist guy.

Good post. :agree:

[matty_f]

I fully expect that the official involved will never be involved in a game at that level again and I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t referee again.

Hopefully common sense prevails and no punishment is handed out though.
Speculation, though.

FWIW, i think UEFA will feel a pressure to be seen to do something but I also think that once it’s investigated it will be clear that the intention was not to offend or be racist, that no derogatory term was used (as far as i know) and if there is a punishment it will be in line with the magnitude of the “offence”.

[matty_f]

The minimum punishment is a 10 match ban.

The maximum punishment is whatever UEFA want it to be.

Article 14 of UEFA's latest edition of discipline measures and procedures states that "any person under the scope of Article 3 who insults the human dignity of a person or group of persons on whatever grounds, including skin colour, race, religion, ethnic origin, gender or sexual orientation, incurs a suspension lasting at least 10 matches or a specified period of time, or any other appropriate sanction."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11820/12156149/sebastian-coltescu-fourth-official-in-paris-saint-germain-vs-istanbul-basaksehir-faces-10-match-ban

Apologies, i misread that.

[neil7908]

The mock outrage mob won't miss an opportunity to be all over this.

Yeah that pesky Liberal woke outrage mob run by Demba Ba and the assistant manager of a Turkish team barely anyone has heard of 🙄

[neil7908]

If a white guy was sitting on a bench with five black guys I might describe him as the white guy. Stuff like this does my head in as it detracts from the real fight against racism.

What a strange comment. Have you seen who was originally upset at this? It didn't start on Twitter. Webo, Ba, Kimbepe etc have all seen this as an issue. But the guys on Hibs.net don't think there is a problem 🙄.

[Peevemor]

What a strange comment. Have you seen who was originally upset at this? It didn't start on Twitter. Webo, Ba, Kimbepe etc have all seen this as an issue. But the guys on Hibs.net don't think there is a problem [emoji849].I think that in the heat of the moment the situation took on proportions that, observing from a distance after the event, appear disproportionate.

It also seems that those involved aren't willing to back down and many others aren't willing to give the 4th official the benefit of the doubt.

[lord bunberry]

Let’s be honest here, the problem has arisen because the Romanian word for black is negru. Calling him the black guy was ill advised, but it wouldn’t have caused such a stir if it had been said in English or another language.

[Speedy]

Sounds to me to be a bit racially insensitive rather than being overtly racist.

There are definitely occasions when 'the white guy/one' would be a distinguishing feature so I don't agree with the argument is that it wouldn't be said. Although I do agree something along the lines of 'the tall black guy on the right' would be more appropriate.

An apology, some training and getting out of the limelight for a bit seems the appropriate answer.

[The Modfather]

I think that in the heat of the moment the situation took on proportions that, observing from a distance after the event, appear disproportionate.

It also seems that those involved aren't willing to back down and many others aren't willing to give the 4th official the benefit of the doubt.

Good post. Think the official was clumsy in what he said and should have more self awareness in this day and age. However Demba Ba has overreacted in the heat of the moment (based on the details known just now). It seems more and more like it’s the wider issue that’s actually being debated, which is a valid debate in itself , rather than the specifics of this incident. With folk becoming entrenched on their side of the wider debate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Let’s be honest here, the problem has arisen because the Romanian word for black is negru. Calling him the black guy was ill advised, but it wouldn’t have caused such a stir if it had been said in English or another language.

Do any of us know enough about Romanian to know that “negru” is a drop in replacement for English “black” *in this context*?

I mean (extreme example) the N word means black. We have to be sure how Romanians use the word to know how it was intended or is usually taken.

[G B Young]

Where does this idea that everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended about stop? Or does it not stop?

I'd bet that Webo and Demba Ba would both say that Webo is a black man. Ba and the others involved last night being offended by a factually accurate and non-discriminatory, non-derogatory and non-aggressive statement will most likely have lost this guy his job. The official will now be branded (in fact the players already seen to it that he already has been when they were all shouting that he was a racist) as a racist having had his face plastered all over television all over the world. That's the guy lost his job and been given the label as a racist all over the world - one of the worst labels you can be given.

Should people have the right to be 'offended' over whatever they want when it's massively detrimental to somebody else's life? What if this has a major impact on the official? What if the official was to suffer from mental health issues on the back of this? What if he took his own life? Should we still just accept that because Demba Ba wants to kick up a fuss by someone being described as something that they have probably described themselves as hundreds of times that he has the right to do just that when it has the potential to have such dire consequences on the official? I've described plenty people as a black guy - be it an actor or a footballer I don't know the name of. I'd be sick to my stomach if on the back of that I had my face plastered all over the tv all over the world, lost my job and would never get another in the industry I've probably spent a long time in and branded a racist.

Someone on the thread on the main board suggested that if the referee gets sacked it will be UEFA and not the players that have got him sacked but it's absolutely the doing of the players who have declared him a racist. UEFA have been left in a position where they quite simply cannot back the guy anymore. He's got a label that their reactions have given him and it'll be stuck now, whether that's in regards to his refereeing career or even just his life outside of football. He's now the racist guy.

IIRC from a debate I watched on Newsnight last summer it's known as 'over-correction' whereby at times of heightened tensions (in this case racial tensions but also prevalent during the MeToo movement etc), anyone who gets wrongly branded racist/sexist is an acceptable 'casualty' in the fight for equality.

[calumhibee1]

Do any of us know enough about Romanian to know that “negru” is a drop in replacement for English “black” *in this context*?

I mean (extreme example) the N word means black. We have to be sure how Romanians use the word to know how it was intended or is usually taken.

It’s definitely a literal translation. ‘Negru’ translates to ‘black’

The official then whilst speaking English doesn’t hide the fact that he said this and confirms in English that he was pointing out the black man. So I would presume it is simply a case of the official pointing out the black man in Romanian and nothing more sinister.

Of course he could be downplaying it but I’d suspect someone would have picked up on that by now if he was.

[The Modfather]

Do any of us know enough about Romanian to know that “negru” is a drop in replacement for English “black” *in this context*?

I mean (extreme example) the N word means black. We have to be sure how Romanians use the word to know how it was intended or is usually taken.

I’m not sure it’s all that relevant to this incident, while still an interesting point. Demba Ba appears to have reacted because Webo was identified as a/the black man. Regardless of whether negru is a like for like translation of black or a derogatory translation.

As an aside has it been confirmed that he used the word negru? I’ve only seen the video of Ba reacting, not the initial exchange.

[Sir David Gray]

Let’s be honest here, the problem has arisen because the Romanian word for black is negru. Calling him the black guy was ill advised, but it wouldn’t have caused such a stir if it had been said in English or another language.

I think the use of the term "negru" has initially caused the issue but Demba Ba can clearly be heard remonstrating with the official and saying "you never say this white guy, you say this guy so why when you mention a black guy do you say this black guy?" so it sounds like it would have caused an issue in English as well.

[calumhibee1]

I think the use of the term "negru" has initially caused the issue but Demba Ba can clearly be heard remonstrating with the official and saying "you never say this white guy, you say this guy so why when you mention a black guy do you say this black guy?" so it sounds like it would have caused an issue in English as well.

Yup, that’s my take on it. Doesn’t seem like an issue with the actual word negru or even that the word has been potentially misheard, it seems that the issue is Webo being described as black regardless of what language it was in.

[One Day Soon]

Do any of us know enough about Romanian to know that “negru” is a drop in replacement for English “black” *in this context*?

I mean (extreme example) the N word means black. We have to be sure how Romanians use the word to know how it was intended or is usually taken.

I simply cannot understand why no-one in a position of authority in football has yet sought guidance on this from Milwall.

[calumhibee1]

Is it racist for the police to identify a suspect by their skin colour?

What if they have a suspect that’s 5ft10, black, average build, wearing black jeans and a black jacket... leaving the skin colour out of the equation would increase the number of potential suspects by tens if not hundreds of times. We’d now just be looking for what is about the most common appearance in U.K. society.

It’s factually accurate, it’s not pointing out he’s black in a negative manner, it’s purely being used to help identify the suspect. Should that part be left out?

[One Day Soon]

Yup, that’s my take on it. Doesn’t seem like an issue with the actual word negru or even that the word has been potentially misheard, it seems that the issue is Webo being described as black regardless of what language it was in.

That’s exactly what it all turns on. Lots of referees and officials going to be broadening their vocabularies with other descriptive terms beyond colour following this.

[calumhibee1]

That’s exactly what it all turns on. Lots of referees and officials going to be broadening their vocabularies with other descriptive terms beyond colour following this.

I’d suspect it’s a route they wont go down at all :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

I absolutely abhor racism and xenophobia in all it's forms, but I'm struggling to see a case here. If, there is a case to be made against the official then surely there's a case to be made about discrimination against the Romanian (latin)language. Racism will only truly be solved when it's not offensive to describe someone as they appear, the day it becomes ok to describe someone as they appear is the day that racism has died and physical appearance is irrelevant. I think this is a great example of how anti racism can border on xenophobia itself.

[scottish_sleepy]

Is it racist for the police to identify a suspect by their skin colour?

What if they have a suspect that’s 5ft10, black, average build, wearing black jeans and a black jacket... leaving the skin colour out of the equation would increase the number of potential suspects by tens if not hundreds of times. We’d now just be looking for what is about the most common appearance in U.K. society.

It’s factually accurate, it’s not pointing out he’s black in a negative manner, it’s purely being used to help identify the suspect. Should that part be left out?


Exactly mate.
It's getting ridiculous now where people are treading on eggshells whenever talking about anything that's coloured black. My 9 year old shouts racist if we say something like grab the black ball out the garage. He's constantly being told at school not to describe anything as black. Absolutely ludicrous.

[calumhibee1]

Exactly mate.
It's getting ridiculous now where people are treading on eggshells whenever talking about anything that's coloured black. My 9 year old shouts racist if we say something like grab the black ball out the garage. He's constantly being told at school not to describe anything as black. Absolutely ludicrous.

Funnily enough I actually walked past a bunch of school kids with my dog recently and they had a similar exchange when clapping him. One of them pointed out a few black patches on his fur and his mates all gave it the ‘oh you can’t say that’ sort of patter.

Of course they were just winding him up but for them to have done it there’s definitely an element of truth in it.

[scottish_sleepy]

I'm dreading the next time I go to buy a car and they ask what colour I want. I'll have the errr ah **** it I'll have the red one.

[Keith_M]

I'm dreading the next time I go to buy a car and they ask what colour I want. I'll have the errr ah **** it I'll have the red one.


My car's 'African American'.


:wink:

[RyeSloan]

My car's 'African American'.


:wink:

I have the same issue but in reverse.

Mine is a white one but because it’s white I’m reliably told I wouldn’t call it white if pointing it out next to a row of black ones....or something like that.

OK cars are not people but try telling that to the folk that name their cars [emoji2957]

[hibsbollah]

Funnily enough I actually walked past a bunch of school kids with my dog recently and they had a similar exchange when clapping him. One of them pointed out a few black patches on his fur and his mates all gave it the ‘oh you can’t say that’ sort of patter.

Of course they were just winding him up but for them to have done it there’s definitely an element of truth in it.

There really isnt. They were kids mucking about. It’s about as relevant as example as identifying cars by their colour. This thread is reading like Tortuous and Embarrassing Analogy Olympics.

[Sylar]

I'm with matty_f on this one.

Perhaps the fourth official was ignorant rather than intentionally racist, but his conduct was improper and it was right to be called out.

The car analogy above, while flippant, is actually a decent one - if you go into a showroom to look at a new car, you don't say to the salesman "I'll take that black one" - you'd typically name the model you're after unless you were seeing it for the first time and didn't know what it was called or were ignorant to cars in general.

I don't doubt Webo describes himself as a black man, and it's perfectly fine to say a person is black. What wasn't OK was the fourth official calling him out BY the colour of his skin. "That black one there" - that's a horrible way to describe a person and bringing his race into it is completely unnecessary. The fourth official could/should have pointed and said "him" - there was no need to bring Webo's colour into the incident.

I personally don't see it as explicitly racist (this is why unconscious bias training is given in almost every workplace), but I'd rather the black man on the receiving end of racism (probably more times in his life than just this incident) tells me what HE perceives as racist behaviour and why rather than have an army of white football fans on social media attempting to whitesplain racism and tell everyone why Webo and Demba Ba are at fault here.

[Berwickhibby]

I have the same issue but in reverse.

Mine is a white one but because it’s white I’m reliably told I wouldn’t call it white if pointing it out next to a row of black ones....or something like that.

OK cars are not people but try telling that to the folk that name their cars [emoji2957]

So your car was built with privilege... I think your car needs some training :wink::greengrin

[Keith_M]

There really isnt. They were kids mucking about. It’s about as relevant as example as identifying cars by their colour. This thread is reading like Tortuous and Embarrassing Analogy Olympics.


Serious question then.

What do you personally think should be done about this incident?

[calumhibee1]

There really isnt. They were kids mucking about. It’s about as relevant as example as identifying cars by their colour. This thread is reading like Tortuous and Embarrassing Analogy Olympics.

Yup they were. But why is it the topic of a joke in the first place? Because there’s an element of truth to it. They obviously feel like they’re walking on egg shells when referring to things like that, hence why it became the topic of a joke.

[hibsbollah]

Serious question then.

What do you personally think should be done about this incident?

Very good question.

Id assume officials have to go through the same training and education that you have to do to get your coaching badges. So I’d imagine if you gave the official in question the FIFA online diversity training modules so he understands that, whether or not offense is meant, you should avoid identifying someone by their race. And then move on.

[Sir David Gray]

Exactly mate.
It's getting ridiculous now where people are treading on eggshells whenever talking about anything that's coloured black. My 9 year old shouts racist if we say something like grab the black ball out the garage. He's constantly being told at school not to describe anything as black. Absolutely ludicrous.

If that's true, which I have absolutely no reason to doubt, I actually find things like that offensive to be honest.

Will anything be done about that?

As I've said already, genuine cases of racism are extremely wrong, they should be highlighted, taken seriously and the perpetrator should be punished but if we're getting down to this sort of level where innocent kids are being told off for describing things as black, it runs the serious risk of trivialising the whole issue and I don't think that's something that anyone wants to see.

[One Day Soon]

Very good question.

Id assume officials have to go through the same training and education that you have to do to get your coaching badges. So I’d imagine if you gave the official in question the FIFA online diversity training modules so he understands that, whether or not offense is meant, you should avoid identifying someone by their race. And then move on.

This.

[overdrive]

I think the official was incredibly naive. I think Demba Ba’s point that he wouldn’t point someone else out as a “white man” is correct. I don’t necessarily think it’s racist. He is a “black man”, assuming that is the correct term these days. Which brings me onto my next point.

I think we are living in a time where you have to be incredibly careful what you say, even when using what is considered to be OK or normal language. There’s been a few complaints of racist language being used in my girlfriend’s work (including by my girlfriend). This includes using the term “BME” (which is apparently racist because it has been superseded by “those who experience racism”) and describing a Ugandan born Ugandan citizen as “Ugandan” (a British born British citizen was also described as British in the same piece). Apparently that is racist as you can identify as any nationality you want. Both of these examples strike me as OTT.

[Keith_M]

Very good question.

Id assume officials have to go through the same training and education that you have to do to get your coaching badges. So I’d imagine if you gave the official in question the FIFA online diversity training modules so he understands that, whether or not offense is meant, you should avoid identifying someone by their race. And then move on.


Sounds very reasonable, in light of what seems to have been said... and that there's no evidence so far that the guy intended to be racially offensive.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens now.

[superfurryhibby]

One of the problems with this kind of conversation is that it fuels the anger of those who swallow the whole Britain First, Brexit, PC gone mad brigade. I have a fair number of family, with a very strong military tradition, who lap this nonsense up. Getting into debates about the status of saying phrases like blackballing, it's not a black or white issue (meaning it's not clear), a black day for Scottish football etc, etc. It seems to just detract from the real issues (and I would include poor outcomes from people of all skin colours and ethnicity, around health and education).

This stuff really troubles me. Deep down I think the establishment like it because it divides people, creating a sense of marginalisation, particularly amongst the poorly educated and disenfranchised (I'm thinking of people in post industrial northern English towns, satellite towns around big cities with few prospects ). Meanwhile the Eton chaps that lord it over us get on with job of divvying up the lucrative contracts amongst their families and pals, introduce ever more draconian rules in the name of protecting us from a pandemic and generally carry on raking it in whilst taking the piss out of the plebs.

To me calling someone a Chinky, Paki or Darkie is racist. Referring to an Asian, Black man or White man isn't.

Out of interest my sister was always pulling me up about my use of ****, fanny and fud. I would say to her I also use the terms dick, prick, cock, talking bollocks etc.

So where do we draw the line?

[matty_f]

If that's true, which I have absolutely no reason to doubt, I actually find things like that offensive to be honest.

Will anything be done about that?

As I've said already, genuine cases of racism are extremely wrong, they should be highlighted, taken seriously and the perpetrator should be punished but if we're getting down to this sort of level where innocent kids are being told off for describing things as black, it runs the serious risk of trivialising the whole issue and I don't think that's something that anyone wants to see.

I've heard (at best second hand) that children in schools are not allowed to describe things that are black as black and for some reason have no reason to doubt that's true and now I'm offended AND I WANT SOMETHING DONE ABOUT THAT.

:faf:

I can only speak from my experience of a parent with 3 school-age children, who have all confirmed that they have never been told that they can't describe objects/things as black, if they are indeed, black.

This thread is like the Daily Mail letters page.

[matty_f]

I think the official was incredibly naive. I think Demba Ba’s point that he wouldn’t point someone else out as a “white man” is correct. I don’t necessarily think it’s racist. He is a “black man”, assuming that is the correct term these days. Which brings me onto my next point.

I think we are living in a time where you have to be incredibly careful what you say, even when using what is considered to be OK or normal language. There’s been a few complaints of racist language being used in my girlfriend’s work (including by my girlfriend). This includes using the term “BME” (which is apparently racist because it has been superseded by “those who experience racism”) and describing a Ugandan born Ugandan citizen as “Ugandan” (a British born British citizen was also described as British in the same piece). Apparently that is racist as you can identify as any nationality you want. Both of these examples strike me as OTT.

:agree:

I said already that I don't think that the 4th official intended in any way to be racist, and depending on the context actually saying a black person is black is not racist either.

When it's used as their discerning characteristic and you wouldn't use the same characteristic to describe a white guy, which is what the player's complaint was here, then it does muddy the waters somewhat, and again the point is that it's harder for those of us who have NEVER been identified just on the colour of our skin to see what the fuss is about, and this is where an understanding of what is meant by the phrase "white privileges" and the nuances around that principle come into play.

I wouldn't want to see the 4th official punished for it - some awareness training is appropriate but that doesn't mean to say that i don't think the player has a point - he clearly does.

[Keith_M]

:agree:

I said already that I don't think that the 4th official intended in any way to be racist, and depending on the context actually saying a black person is black is not racist either.

When it's used as their discerning characteristic and you wouldn't use the same characteristic to describe a white guy, which is what the player's complaint was here, then it does muddy the waters somewhat, and again the point is that it's harder for those of us who have NEVER been identified just on the colour of our skin to see what the fuss is about, and this is where an understanding of what is meant by the phrase "white privileges" and the nuances around that principle come into play.

I wouldn't want to see the 4th official punished for it - some awareness training is appropriate but that doesn't mean to say that i don't think the player has a point - he clearly does.



I agree with that, Matty, but it does also leave a potentially uncomfortable discussion about the reaction of some of the players and the coach.

Would they be willing to engage in a discussion with the fourth official, and listen to his point of view of the incident, and also his feelings on it given time to reflect on the matter? I think that would be a helpful way to progress from this.

[JeMeSouviens]

In a new twist - a Romanian journo claims Pierre Webo was calling the Romanian officials "gypsies" from the start of the match.

https://acefootball.com/football-news/romanian-journalist-says-istanbuls-pierre-webo-also-made-racist-claims/

[matty_f]

In a new twist - a Romanian journo claims Pierre Webo was calling the Romanian officials "gypsies" from the start of the match.

https://acefootball.com/football-news/romanian-journalist-says-istanbuls-pierre-webo-also-made-racist-claims/

I’m sure in other times there would have been a joke about pots and kettles, but I’m not going there with this one! :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

I've heard (at best second hand) that children in schools are not allowed to describe things that are black as black and for some reason have no reason to doubt that's true and now I'm offended AND I WANT SOMETHING DONE ABOUT THAT.

:faf:

I can only speak from my experience of a parent with 3 school-age children, who have all confirmed that they have never been told that they can't describe objects/things as black, if they are indeed, black.

This thread is like the Daily Mail letters page.

Is there any need for the condescending emoji? I thought you were better than that to be honest.

You could have just started with the "I can only speak from my own experience..." and then left it at that.

A poster posted their own first hand experiences and I was responding to that and I have no reason to disbelieve them, just like I have no reason to disbelieve your first hand experience either.

What makes your first hand experiences correct and the other poster's incorrect? Can they not both be correct?

[matty_f]

Is there any need for the condescending emoji? I thought you were better than that to be honest.

You could have just started with the "I can only speak from my own experience..." and then left it at that.

A poster posted their own first hand experiences and I was responding to that and I have no reason to disbelieve them, just like I have no reason to disbelieve your first hand experience either.

What makes your first hand experiences correct and the other poster's incorrect? Can they not both be correct?

I didn't say mine were correct, that's specifically the reason why I qualified it as only being my experience.

I'm sorry that my laughing emoji offended you. To be honest, I found the point that you were making and the idea that you think something should be done about you being offended at what would amount to being children being taught to be sensitive around their language and the issues of race, to be ridiculous, and unfortunately I did ridicule it, so sorry for that as well.

[Keith_M]

I’m sure in other times there would have been a joke about pots and kettles, but I’m not going there with this one! :greengrin


Anyone familiar with Inspector Fowler from The Thin Blue Line will know what the acceptable version of that phrase is now.

:wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

It’s a bit like a disused minefield, people will still be getting caught out years after we think there has been change. Would I look at a row of people and if the one I was wanting to point out was the black guy, refer to him as such? Probably automatically I would even though training in various roles has taught me not to, I have had similar incidents where I have corrected myself just before I said it by using the colour of clothing etc but it’s certainly been an easy mistake for me to make. In other incidents I have not corrected myself but instantly as soon as I said it I knew it was wrong.

[Keith_M]

It’s a bit like a disused minefield, people will still be getting caught out years after we think there has been change. Would I look at a row of people and if the one I was wanting to point out was the black guy, refer to him as such? Probably automatically I would even though training in various roles has taught me not to, I have had similar incidents where I have corrected myself just before I said it by using the colour of clothing etc but it’s certainly been an easy mistake for me to make. In other incidents I have not corrected myself but instantly as soon as I said it I knew it was wrong.


Yeah, I constantly have to stop myself referring to some of my friends as 'those English gits in the corner'.

It's a real minefield.

[Scouse Hibee]

Yeah, I constantly have to stop myself referring to some of my friends as 'those English gits in the corner'.

It's a real minefield.

I feel your pain, I too have English gits as friends.

[Sir David Gray]

I didn't say mine were correct, that's specifically the reason why I qualified it as only being my experience.

I'm sorry that my laughing emoji offended you. To be honest, I found the point that you were making and the idea that you think something should be done about you being offended at what would amount to being children being taught to be sensitive around their language and the issues of race, to be ridiculous, and unfortunately I did ridicule it, so sorry for that as well.

Thanks for the apology, happy to move on.

[Keith_M]

I feel your pain, I too have English gits as friends.


:greengrin

[neil7908]

I'm with matty_f on this one.

Perhaps the fourth official was ignorant rather than intentionally racist, but his conduct was improper and it was right to be called out.

The car analogy above, while flippant, is actually a decent one - if you go into a showroom to look at a new car, you don't say to the salesman "I'll take that black one" - you'd typically name the model you're after unless you were seeing it for the first time and didn't know what it was called or were ignorant to cars in general.

I don't doubt Webo describes himself as a black man, and it's perfectly fine to say a person is black. What wasn't OK was the fourth official calling him out BY the colour of his skin. "That black one there" - that's a horrible way to describe a person and bringing his race into it is completely unnecessary. The fourth official could/should have pointed and said "him" - there was no need to bring Webo's colour into the incident.

I personally don't see it as explicitly racist (this is why unconscious bias training is given in almost every workplace), but I'd rather the black man on the receiving end of racism (probably more times in his life than just this incident) tells me what HE perceives as racist behaviour and why rather than have an army of white football fans on social media attempting to whitesplain racism and tell everyone why Webo and Demba Ba are at fault here.

Spot on. Another example would be something like weight. If we have a visitor at work who's looking for John would I say - the fat one? I suspect John and my boss might have an issue with that.

[Since90+2]

Spot on. Another example would be something like weight. If we have a visitor at work who's looking for John would I say - the fat one? I suspect John and my boss might have an issue with that.

Except that term is used in a derogatory way most of the time whereas just saying someone is black isn't.

[Newry Hibs]

I'm with matty_f on this one.

Perhaps the fourth official was ignorant rather than intentionally racist, but his conduct was improper and it was right to be called out.

The car analogy above, while flippant, is actually a decent one - if you go into a showroom to look at a new car, you don't say to the salesman "I'll take that black one" - you'd typically name the model you're after unless you were seeing it for the first time and didn't know what it was called or were ignorant to cars in general.

I don't doubt Webo describes himself as a black man, and it's perfectly fine to say a person is black. What wasn't OK was the fourth official calling him out BY the colour of his skin. "That black one there" - that's a horrible way to describe a person and bringing his race into it is completely unnecessary. The fourth official could/should have pointed and said "him" - there was no need to bring Webo's colour into the incident.

I personally don't see it as explicitly racist (this is why unconscious bias training is given in almost every workplace), but I'd rather the black man on the receiving end of racism (probably more times in his life than just this incident) tells me what HE perceives as racist behaviour and why rather than have an army of white football fans on social media attempting to whitesplain racism and tell everyone why Webo and Demba Ba are at fault here.

I wonder if the unconscious bias training should also include that sometimes it's not racist to call someone a black man - especially with different nationalities and cultures.

[Sylar]

I wonder if the unconscious bias training should also include that sometimes it's not racist to call someone a black man - especially with different nationalities and cultures.

Of course it isn't. As I said in my post.

[neil7908]

Except that term is used in a derogatory way most of the time whereas just saying someone is black isn't.

I think you'll find that calling someone black is often used in a derogatory way - that's exactly why this is an issue. The argument on here from many posters is that we shouldn't get upset as that's the most obvious description of the assist coach. My example is exactly the same.

[Rocky]

I think it's entirely possible that the official was clumsy rather than racist. The reaction of the usual suspects on here tells you more about racism than the incident itself does though.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's entirely possible that the official was clumsy rather than racist. The reaction of the usual suspects on here tells you more about racism than the incident itself does though.

Clumsy in our eyes, racist in the eyes of the offended and probably culturally acceptable in Romania. It's an absolute minefield.

[Rocky]

Clumsy in our eyes, racist in the eyes of the offended and probably culturally acceptable in Romania. It's an absolute minefield.

Agreed. But having seen the upset of Webo and Demba Ba each of us have the opportunity to reflect. Some of us do so by reflecting on our own behaviour to minimise future upset, others do it by weirdy car and dog analogies to justify cracking on.

[The Modfather]

Agreed. But having seen the upset of Webo and Demba Ba each of us have the opportunity to reflect. Some of us do so by reflecting on our own behaviour to minimise future upset, others do it by weirdy car and dog analogies to justify cracking on.

Surely there’s also the opportunity to reflect and potentially feel we overacted. Which is what I feel Demba Ba did on this specific occasion.

[calumhibee1]

I think you'll find that calling someone black is often used in a derogatory way - that's exactly why this is an issue. The argument on here from many posters is that we shouldn't get upset as that's the most obvious description of the assist coach. My example is exactly the same.

Whilst black is used in a derogatory way I think you’d find it nigh on impossible to suggest that’s what was done here - saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory.

As it wasn’t used in a derogatory way and it’s factually correct and most likely how Webo would describe himself i’m struggling to see how it is an issue here.

With your fat analogy - would the fat person identify as being fat? What’s the definition of fat? Is it weight? Waist size? BMI? Do you have all those facts on hand to know that the guy is fat? Or have you just made a judgement that the guy is fat?

It’s not really the same situation.

[Keith_M]

Any news on whether the (alleged) gypsy comment was actually said or just made up?

[neil7908]

Whilst black is used in a derogatory way I think you’d find it nigh on impossible to suggest that’s what was done here - saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory.

As it wasn’t used in a derogatory way and it’s factually correct and most likely how Webo would describe himself i’m struggling to see how it is an issue here.

With your fat analogy - would the fat person identify as being fat? What’s the definition of fat? Is it weight? Waist size? BMI? Do you have all those facts on hand to know that the guy is fat? Or have you just made a judgement that the guy is fat?

It’s not really the same situation.


Right back at you. What makes someone black? How dark does there skin have to be? Who decides that? What if they are mixed race and surrounded by white people - Are you going to say the brown person over there?

Actually weigh is easier - there are clinical definitions of this. But none of us would say that, even if the person is 30 stone. Instead we use a bit of discretion and realise there are other ways to identify people. It's really not that hard. I've successfully navigated my working life without needing to refer to the skin colour of my colleagues and work associates. It's very, very easy.

Like many others who think this is an issue, I don't think the guy was doing anything horrendous, he probably shouldn't be sacked based on what I've read, but it's not how you operate at work. I'd get in trouble for it, so would most workers. There is just no need.

[neil7908]

Whilst black is used in a derogatory way I think you’d find it nigh on impossible to suggest that’s what was done here - saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory.

As it wasn’t used in a derogatory way and it’s factually correct and most likely how Webo would describe himself i’m struggling to see how it is an issue here.

With your fat analogy - would the fat person identify as being fat? What’s the definition of fat? Is it weight? Waist size? BMI? Do you have all those facts on hand to know that the guy is fat? Or have you just made a judgement that the guy is fat?

It’s not really the same situation.

"saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory."

I'm genuinely interested to know why you think not just Webo but Ba, Kimbepe, Mbappe etc are upset about this then.

[CropleyWasGod]

"saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory."

I'm genuinely interested to know why you think not just Webo but Ba, Kimbepe, Mbappe etc are upset about this then.

:agree:

I don't think us Caucasian folks are in any position to decide what is and isn't derogatory to other races. Ask them, for sure, because that's how barriers are broken down.....but don't tell them what to feel. I think the kids call that "whitesplaining". :cb

[matty_f]

Neil7908 and CropleywasGod : excellent posts. :agree:

[calumhibee1]

"saying someone is a black man in a factual non discriminatory way isn’t derogatory."

I'm genuinely interested to know why you think not just Webo but Ba, Kimbepe, Mbappe etc are upset about this then.

You want me to tell why they’re upset about it?

I’ve no idea, because there’s nothing to be upset about.

[calumhibee1]

:agree:

I don't think us Caucasian folks are in any position to decide what is and isn't derogatory to other races. Ask them, for sure, because that's how barriers are broken down.....but don't tell them what to feel. I think the kids call that "whitesplaining". :cb

Ah the good old ‘everyone can be offended by whatever they want to be’.

Even when it means someone losing their job and being branded a racist all over the world.

I await the day when the vast majority of men on this website are retrospectively punished at their work for calling a woman a woman. I’m sure everyone will agree that it’s not for them to decide whether that was right or not.

[neil7908]

You want me to tell why they’re upset about it?

I’ve no idea, because there’s nothing to be upset about.

No, I know why they are upset as they have explained why. I'm trying to tease out why you have ignored their views and what has led you to do this.

You are now suggesting a bunch of footballers and coaches are fabricating offence and making very serious accusations for a reason you can't explain.

[calumhibee1]

Right back at you. What makes someone black? How dark does there skin have to be? Who decides that? What if they are mixed race and surrounded by white people - Are you going to say the brown person over there?

Actually weigh is easier - there are clinical definitions of this. But none of us would say that, even if the person is 30 stone. Instead we use a bit of discretion and realise there are other ways to identify people. It's really not that hard. I've successfully navigated my working life without needing to refer to the skin colour of my colleagues and work associates. It's very, very easy.

Like many others who think this is an issue, I don't think the guy was doing anything horrendous, he probably shouldn't be sacked based on what I've read, but it's not how you operate at work. I'd get in trouble for it, so would most workers. There is just no need.

Have you also successfully navigated your working life without referring to a woman as a woman/lady etc?

Or does this only apply to black people and everyone else just has to accept being called what they are and what they would refer to themselves as to help identify them?

[hibsbollah]

Have you also successfully navigated your working life without referring to a woman as a woman/lady etc?

Or does this only apply to black people and everyone else just has to accept being called what they are and what they would refer to themselves as to help identify them?

Id imagine in Neils workplace women would prefer to be called by their first name, not ‘that woman’, or ‘that black guy’ in Demba Bas case. I think you’ve just accidentally made Neils argument for him. That’s why we don’t say ‘hen’ or ‘love’ in the workplace anymore. It’s a matter of respect and it’s universal, just the opposite of the double standards you seem to be claiming.

[calumhibee1]

Id imagine in Neils workplace women would prefer to be called by their first name, not ‘that woman’, or ‘that black guy’ in Demba Bas case. I think you’ve just accidentally made Neils argument for him. That’s why we don’t say ‘hen’ or ‘love’ in the workplace anymore. It’s a matter of respect and it’s universal, just the opposite of the double standards you seem to be claiming.

Of course that’s totally ignoring the fact that the official most likely didn’t know Webo’s name - hence having to describe him rather than name him. So I’ll ask the question again - but for the avoidance of doubt for yourself and so we can’t skirt round the question - I presume those saying they would never refer to someone as a black person has never referred to a woman whom they didn’t know the name of as either of the following:

A woman
The woman
That woman
A lady
The lady
That lady

[hibsbollah]

Of course that’s totally ignoring the fact that the official most likely didn’t know Webo’s name - hence having to describe him rather than name him. So I’ll ask the question again - but for the avoidance of doubt for yourself and so we can’t skirt round the question - I presume those saying they would never refer to someone as a black person has never referred to a woman whom they didn’t know the name of as either of the following:

A woman
The woman
That woman
A lady
The lady
That lady

Of course I would refer to someone as that from time to time :dunno: But I’d be better advised in my place of work to learn her name instead.
But that’s not evidence of double standards or being inconsistent.

[calumhibee1]

Of course I would refer to someone as that from time to time :dunno: But I’d be better advised in my place of work to learn her name instead.
But that’s not evidence of double standards or being inconsistent.

So why is that acceptable? How’s it not double standards?

Women have had a lot of similar issues to black people in the past. Things like not being able to vote, inequality, unequal pay, unequal opportunities or just generally being discriminated against for being a woman. These are the sort of reasons we’re being told that we can’t call a black person a black person if they say that they don’t like it.

[hibsbollah]

So why is that acceptable? How’s it not double standards?

Women have had a lot of similar issues to black people in the past. Things like not being able to vote, inequality, unequal pay, unequal opportunities or just generally being discriminated against for being a woman. These are the sort of reasons we’re being told that we can’t call a black person a black person if they say that they don’t like it.


I can’t help thinking you’ve stopped trying to listen/understand the points that are being made to you, I’ve just explained what I think is fair and reasonable behaviour, and what I expect in my place of work and why people should be addressed in a manner they feel comfortable with. I’m happy to debate on most subjects when there’s something to learn; this is just becoming entrenched culture war pish that is infecting all politics and making real progress impossible. And it’s just ****ing boring.

[Since90+2]

Of course that’s totally ignoring the fact that the official most likely didn’t know Webo’s name - hence having to describe him rather than name him. So I’ll ask the question again - but for the avoidance of doubt for yourself and so we can’t skirt round the question - I presume those saying they would never refer to someone as a black person has never referred to a woman whom they didn’t know the name of as either of the following:

A woman
The woman
That woman
A lady
The lady
That lady

That's a fair enough point.

[calumhibee1]

I can’t help thinking you’ve stopped trying to listen/understand the points that are being made to you, I’ve just explained what I think is fair and reasonable behaviour, and what I expect in my place of work and why people should be addressed in a manner they feel comfortable with. I’m happy to debate on most subjects when there’s something to learn; this is just becoming entrenched culture war pish that is infecting all politics and making real progress impossible. And it’s just ****ing boring.

Aye ok 😂

‘I don’t have an answer to your point so I’ll just tell you you’re not listening’

You can explain that to me all you like, you’ve not explained to me why it’s acceptable to do exactly as the official done to a different group of people who have and still have also had struggles with inequality simply due to the fact they’ve been born who they are.

That is the absolute definition of double standards.

[matty_f]

Ah the good old ‘everyone can be offended by whatever they want to be’.

Even when it means someone losing their job and being branded a racist all over the world.

I await the day when the vast majority of men on this website are retrospectively punished at their work for calling a woman a woman. I’m sure everyone will agree that it’s not for them to decide whether that was right or not.

Has anyone branded the 4th official a racist on this thread?

[calumhibee1]

Has anyone branded the 4th official a racist on this thread?

Did I say they have?

There’s headlines on tv and in papers all over the world regarding the racist remark etc. I never mentioned this thread.

[matty_f]

Did I say they have?

There’s headlines on tv and in papers all over the world regarding the racist remark etc. I never mentioned this thread.

You said he’s been branded a racist all over the world, i thought there would probably be some supporting evidence of this on a thread discussing the very topic.

I’ve had a look at a few news sources about it and not one of them has called the 4th official a racist either.

I’m sure there are probably examples, but i don’t think he’ll be known as a racist all around the world. Far from it.

All over the world but just not this thread.

[calumhibee1]

You said he’s been branded a racist all over the world, i thought there would probably be some supporting evidence of this on a thread discussing the very topic.

I’ve had a look at a few news sources about it and not one of them has called the 4th official a racist either.

I’m sure there are probably examples, but i don’t think he’ll be known as a racist all around the world. Far from it.

All over the world but just not this thread.

You thought people on a Hibs forum were going to be posting links to news articles from all over the world? Did ye, aye?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/au.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/champions-league-psg-game-marred-alleged-racist-comment-official-224927094.html

Australia - shocking racism incident sparks extraordinary Champions League walk off

There’s one for starters. There’s hundreds more, quite easily accessible.

[matty_f]

You thought people on a Hibs forum were going to be posting links to news articles from all over the world? Did ye, aye?

That’s not what I said.

I was making the point that the assertion that the 4th official was being branded a racist all over the world probably isn’t correct, using the fact that even on a thread discussing the issue, with conflicting views on the matter, nobody has branded him a racist.

I don’t expect you to post any links to anything.

[matty_f]

You thought people on a Hibs forum were going to be posting links to news articles from all over the world? Did ye, aye?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/au.sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/champions-league-psg-game-marred-alleged-racist-comment-official-224927094.html

Australia - shocking racism incident sparks extraordinary Champions League walk off

There’s one for starters. There’s hundreds more, quite easily accessible.

What part of those articles calls the 4th official a racist?

[One Day Soon]

Aye ok 😂

‘I don’t have an answer to your point so I’ll just tell you you’re not listening’

You can explain that to me all you like, you’ve not explained to me why it’s acceptable to do exactly as the official done to a different group of people who have and still have also had struggles with inequality simply due to the fact they’ve been born who they are.

That is the absolute definition of double standards.

Is there not a distinction between the two groups you have chosen - women and people with black skin. Women have been discriminated against because of their gender and black people because of their skin. Woman has not however generally been used as a pejorative term on a widespread basis whereas the term ‘black’ and various derivations and associated terms have.

In any event avoiding describing the player as black when other descriptive terms not loaded with history are available seems to me not an unreasonable expectation. I don’t think the official should be hammered for this as it doesn’t appear that the intent was racist but it clearly still did cause offence. There’s a world of difference between a black person using the term black in a way that is culturally acceptable to black people and someone who is not black using the same term in a way that is not acceptable to black people due to who is using the term, how they are using it and the context they use it in.

I’d say the official got it wrong, the players reacted understandably though perhaps strongly to it, it was a relatively minor episode as these things go and provided he puts his hand up to say ‘yes I should have done that differently’ everyone can and should move on. I’m not sure it’s straightforward to understand the impact of casual or deliberate racism unless you’ve been subjected to it, still less to be able to really know or say what is and is not perceived to be racist by those who have lived it.

[matty_f]

Is there not a distinction between the two groups you have chosen - women and people with black skin. Women have been discriminated against because of their gender and black people because of their skin. Woman has not however generally been used as a pejorative term on a widespread basis whereas the term ‘black’ and various derivations and associated terms have.

In any event avoiding describing the player as black when other descriptive terms not loaded with history are available seems to me not an unreasonable expectation. I don’t think the official should be hammered for this as it doesn’t appear that the intent was racist but it clearly still did cause offence. There’s a world of difference between a black person using the term black in a way that is culturally acceptable to black people and someone who is not black using the same term in a way that is not acceptable to black people due to who is using the term, how they are using it and the context they use it in.

I’d say the official got it wrong, the players reacted understandably though perhaps strongly to it, it was a relatively minor episode as these things go and provided he puts his hand up to say ‘yes I should have done that differently’ everyone can and should move on. I’m not sure it’s straightforward to understand the impact of casual or deliberate racism unless you’ve been subjected to it, still less to be able to really know or say what is and is nit perceived to be racist by those who have lived it.
Excellent post. :agree:

[calumhibee1]

What part of those articles calls the 4th official a racist?

It was declared a racism incident. If you are the instigator of a racist incident then you’re a racist.

[calumhibee1]

Is there not a distinction between the two groups you have chosen - women and people with black skin. Women have been discriminated against because of their gender and black people because of their skin. Woman has not however generally been used as a pejorative term on a widespread basis whereas the term ‘black’ and various derivations and associated terms have.

In any event avoiding describing the player as black when other descriptive terms not loaded with history are available seems to me not an unreasonable expectation. I don’t think the official should be hammered for this as it doesn’t appear that the intent was racist but it clearly still did cause offence. There’s a world of difference between a black person using the term black in a way that is culturally acceptable to black people and someone who is not black using the same term in a way that is not acceptable to black people due to who is using the term, how they are using it and the context they use it in.

I’d say the official got it wrong, the players reacted understandably though perhaps strongly to it, it was a relatively minor episode as these things go and provided he puts his hand up to say ‘yes I should have done that differently’ everyone can and should move on. I’m not sure it’s straightforward to understand the impact of casual or deliberate racism unless you’ve been subjected to it, still less to be able to really know or say what is and is not perceived to be racist by those who have lived it.

Woman or some variation of the word has been used in a derogatory manner.

Stop crying like a wee girl
Worse than a woman

So we’re justifying it because black or a variation is used in a derogatory manner on a more frequent/more intense basis?

[matty_f]

It was declared a racism incident. If you are the instigator of a racist incident then you’re a racist.

So why is nobody on this thread, even those that recognise that it could be considered racist, saying the 4th official is a racist?

[matty_f]

Woman or some variation of the word has been used in a derogatory manner.

Stop crying like a wee girl
Worse than a woman

So we’re justifying it because black or a variation is used in a derogatory manner on a more frequent/more intense basis?

Without speaking for One Day Soon, I took from their post that the situations aren’t comparable because of the differences in the type of language and discrimination the two groups experience.

That argument is correct, it’s a very nuanced position and there are flaws in the comparison. It’s not about justifying anything.

[mjhibby]

Would it not be best to sum it up that the 4th official did not intend to cause offence but obviously some players/ coaches were most certainly offended. The argument about whether he is a racist or not isn’t the issue here. In a world where everybody is perfect then I can see why you could call him racist but it would seem there is no agreement on the whether he is or not. As usual on such an emotive subject a few going ott. There a nuances to most things in life. Your unlikely to find any when society has never been more polarised and nobody wants to meet halfway on anything. Very very sad in my eyes and it could just be both sides are correct but how it is viewed depends on how you view the world. I’m sure the 4th official will be hounded wherever he goes and there will be no resolution to this incident which is a very poor outcome all round.

[matty_f]

Would it not be best to sum it up that the 4th official did not intend to cause offence but obviously some players/ coaches were most certainly offended. The argument about whether he is a racist or not isn’t the issue here. In a world where everybody is perfect then I can see why you could call him racist but it would seem there is no agreement on the whether he is or not. As usual on such an emotive subject a few going ott. There a nuances to most things in life. Your unlikely to find any when society has never been more polarised and nobody wants to meet halfway on anything. Very very sad in my eyes and it could just be both sides are correct but how it is viewed depends on how you view the world. I’m sure the 4th official will be hounded wherever he goes and there will be no resolution to this incident which is a very poor outcome all round.

I think that’s reflected in a lot of the posts, most have been sympathetic to the 4th official in regards to his intentions not being racist.

I think where it’s got heated is that both sides of the debate (in this instance “it’s not offensive/racist” v “it did cause offence and can be considered racist”) can’t both be right unless people take the position that it’s up to others what victims of racism are allowed to be offended about.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ah the good old ‘everyone can be offended by whatever they want to be’.

Even when it means someone losing their job and being branded a racist all over the world.

I await the day when the vast majority of men on this website are retrospectively punished at their work for calling a woman a woman. I’m sure everyone will agree that it’s not for them to decide whether that was right or not.

You really didn't read my post properly.

[Newry Hibs]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

[mjhibby]

I think that’s reflected in a lot of the posts, most have been sympathetic to the 4th official in regards to his intentions not being racist.

I think where it’s got heated is that both sides of the debate (in this instance “it’s not offensive/racist” v “it did cause offence and can be considered racist”) can’t both be right unless people take the position that it’s up to others what victims of racism are allowed to be offended about.

And the void there is whether there was intention to offend. He has apologised for causing any offence and said he didn’t intend any. John Barnes has said the thing has been overblown and that we aren’t focusing on the underlying problems with racism so who am I to contradict a guy who suffered horrendous racism throughout his career. We will never make headway with tackling racism when folk views are so polarised and moral outrage is the go to reaction to any incident.

[matty_f]

And the void there is whether there was intention to offend. He has apologised for causing any offence and said he didn’t intend any. John Barnes has said the thing has been overblown and that we aren’t focusing on the underlying problems with racism so who am I to contradict a guy who suffered horrendous racism throughout his career. We will never make headway with tackling racism when folk views are so polarised and moral outrage is the go to reaction to any incident.

I’m not seeing moral outrage on this thread though, and I am seeing lots of acknowledgement that the guy never meant to cause offence. The vid doesn’t come from people who are acknowledging the 4th official could be in the wrong. I think virtually all the posters who hold the view that the players/coach have a point have acknowledged that they don’t think there was any intent to offend.

Is John Barnes’ view more relevant than that of the players or coach involved? I respect John Barnes a lot and i respect what he’s done to fight racism, and i respect his opinion on this instance, i don’t think it’s the definitive one though.

[Sir David Gray]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

Good post.

[mjhibby]

I’m not seeing moral outrage on this thread though, and I am seeing lots of acknowledgement that the guy never meant to cause offence. The vid doesn’t come from people who are acknowledging the 4th official could be in the wrong. I think virtually all the posters who hold the view that the players/coach have a point have acknowledged that they don’t think there was any intent to offend.

Is John Barnes’ view more relevant than that of the players or coach involved? I respect John Barnes a lot and i respect what he’s done to fight racism, and i respect his opinion on this instance, i don’t think it’s the definitive one though.

I don’t think there is a definitive opinion. It’s his opinion though and as someone who had to put up with horrendous levels of racism should be listened to. This thread to its credit has shown . net to be a place where we can have a discussion and listen to others views. In the wider social media world there is very little or no nuance and it’s one side or the other. I hear the moral outrage on loads of topics and it’s becoming a way of life for many people who should know better and to do some basic checks before hit the moral outrage button. I don’t know why but to my mind we have become a much more intolerant society in the last few years.

[matty_f]

I don’t think there is a definitive opinion. It’s his opinion though and as someone who had to put up with horrendous levels of racism should be listened to. This thread to its credit has shown . net to be a place where we can have a discussion and listen to others views. In the wider social media world there is very little or no nuance and it’s one side or the other. I hear the moral outrage on loads of topics and it’s becoming a way of life for many people who should know better and to do some basic checks before hit the moral outrage button. I don’t know why but to my mind we have become a much more intolerant society in the last few years.

Agreed. :agree:

[neil7908]

Are you Romanian? Do you live and work in Romania?

If not, why are you pretending to know what is and is not acceptable for them to say?

Totally irrelevant. Even if something is acceptable in Romania doesn't mean we automatically can't question it. The guy is working internationally for a European organisation. What is said and done in Romania is neither here nor there.

[murray26]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

It’s pretty much what I think to.

[The Modfather]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

Great post IMO and sums up this specific incident well. The rest of this thread is a valid debate but of little connection to this specific incident.

[Keith_M]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.



Total over-reactions and displays of righteous indignation are the way of the modern world.

We might as well get the pitchforks and torches out for the guy now.

[Since90+2]

Total over-reactions and displays of righteous indignation are the way of the modern world.

We might as well get the pitchforks and torches out for the guy now.

Agreed. Sadly this is the modern world we live in.

[calumhibee1]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

Absolutely.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Total over-reactions and displays of righteous indignation are the way of the modern world.

We might as well get the pitchforks and torches out for the guy now.

Indeed.

[660]

The players are being lauded for walking off by anti racist groups and other players. Webo has given an interview talking about 8th december being a significant day. The whole narrative is that this was racist.

No mention of maybe it was an overreaction. That view wont dare be aired in the msm.

I cant help think that people have wanted this course of action to be taken - a high profile walk off - and they've chosen the wrong one.

Hmm your last sentence is intriguing. I’d genuinely love to know who the “people” are they you think are orchestrating walk offs like this and choosing when to do it.

[Newry Hibs]

Hmm your last sentence is intriguing. I’d genuinely love to know who the “people” are they you think are orchestrating walk offs like this and choosing when to do it.

'People' being the anti racist groups who were very vocal congratulating the players actions.
Whilst being outraged that such 'racism' occurred they must be be 'pleased' to have a high profile event to talk about.
From memory i can only think of maybe lower league italian matches were a walk off has happened.

I dont think it was orchestrated as such in Paris where people were on their guard to leap into action. I do think it was an overreaction.

[660]

'People' being the anti racist groups who were very vocal congratulating the players actions.
Whilst being outraged that such 'racism' occurred they must be be 'pleased' to have a high profile event to talk about.
From memory i can only think of maybe lower league italian matches were a walk off has happened.

I dont think it was orchestrated as such in Paris where people were on their guard to leap into action. I do think it was an overreaction.

Sorry I’m struggling to understand your logic.

So you are saying anti racism groups shouldn’t react in the media to high profile incidents of racism?

When the media covering the event ask them for a reaction they should say “no comment” or are you suggesting a collaboration between the MSM and anti racism groups to exaggerate racist events for some reason.

I’m trying to understand this seemingly conspiratorial view of events given a player walk off for any reason at this level would be news. The media would then ask relevant people for comment.

[Newry Hibs]

As i originally said, anti racism groups have used this event to laud the players actions. But they nor the msm have even considered that it wasnt actually a racist incident.
John barnes being a notable exception.

Msm dont want to be seen as going against them so dont raise any issue of overreaction. And the anti racist groups have their high profile walk off.

I dont think its a direct conspiracy and never mentioned that. But i think the msm are setting the narrative here. Sky and bt sport have loads of blm adverts and items. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[G B Young]

Well John Barnes who is black (if I’m allowed to say that!) and has often been at the front of anti racism actions seems to think that calling a black person black is totally acceptable...

There is surely more to this incident than the fact somebody described a black person as black? If that was wrong then why is the movement called Black Lives Matter?

Has there been any more clarity on what actually happened?

[660]

As i originally said, anti racism groups have used this event to laud the players actions. But they nor the msm have even considered that it wasnt actually a racist incident.
John barnes being a notable exception.

Msm dont want to be seen as going against them so dont raise any issue of overreaction. And the anti racist groups have their high profile walk off.

I dont think its a direct conspiracy and never mentioned that. But i think the msm are setting the narrative here. Sky and bt sport have loads of blm adverts and items. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

It’s a racist incident because the person involved perceived his behaviour to be racist and the players walked off.

I find people desperately hunting to excuse the officials behaviour more offensive to be honest. Maybe it was his tone, or the context as opposed to the word “black”. I’ll trust the players judgement on that.

There’s no direct or indirect conspiracy. It’s a good thing that BAME issues are discussed. The MSM are covering BLM etc because it’s topical and there was a grassroots reaction to George Floyd. It wasn’t media generated.

I’ve learnt a lot about BAME issues recently and it’s been interesting and enlightening. It’s a shame that people feel the need to take it as some sort of personal attack instead of an opportunity to consider their own behaviour and the status of BAME people within society.

[calumhibee1]

There is surely more to this incident than the fact somebody described a black person as black? If that was wrong then why is the movement called Black Lives Matter?

Has there been any more clarity on what actually happened?

On the presumption that if there was any more to it it would have come out by now then no, that’s all that happened. With a potential accusation of Webo calling the official a gypsy thrown in although I don’t think that really chances the ‘“black man” situation.

[calumhibee1]

It’s a racist incident because the person involved perceived his behaviour to be racist and the players walked off..

That’s not how life works.

Just declaring that something is racist doesn’t mean that it actually is racist.

[660]

That’s not how life works.

Just declaring that something is racist doesn’t mean that it actually is racist.

I think the person involved is able to make that judgment better then you.

[calumhibee1]

I think the person involved is able to make that judgment better then you.

Ah ok.

Well in that case I perceive your post as racist.

Ridiculous? Of course. But at the end of the day I’m involved so I’m better placed than anybody else to make that judgement.

I now crown you a racist.

[Newry Hibs]

It’s a racist incident because the person involved perceived his behaviour to be racist and the players walked off.

I find people desperately hunting to excuse the officials behaviour more offensive to be honest. Maybe it was his tone, or the context as opposed to the word “black”. I’ll trust the players judgement on that.

There’s no direct or indirect conspiracy. It’s a good thing that BAME issues are discussed. The MSM are covering BLM etc because it’s topical and there was a grassroots reaction to George Floyd. It wasn’t media generated.

I’ve learnt a lot about BAME issues recently and it’s been interesting and enlightening. It’s a shame that people feel the need to take it as some sort of personal attack instead of an opportunity to consider their own behaviour and the status of BAME people within society.

Then there's not much more to say if we're going down the route of perception now being fact.

Desperately seeking to excuse or having different opinion?

[660]

Ah ok.

Well in that case I perceive your post as racist.

Ridiculous? Of course. But at the end of the day I’m involved so I’m better placed than anybody else to make that judgement.

I now crown you a racist.

Do you have a list of things black people can consider racist so I can circulate it round them?

[calumhibee1]

Do you have a list of things black people can consider racist so I can circulate it round them?

You’ve already told me that anyone can perceive anything as racist should they so wish so no list required. However, a look at the definition of racist should give you a good place to start.

Racist:

prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The officials actions do not in any way fall into that category.

[660]

You’ve already told me that anyone can perceive anything as racist should they so wish so no list required. However, a look at the definition of racist should give you a good place to start.

Racist:

prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The officials actions do not in any way fall into that category.

Strawman:

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

A black person is allowed to make the judgment on whether they are being subject to racism or not. They might know a bit more about it than you.

[calumhibee1]

Strawman:

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

A black person is allowed to make the judgment on whether they are being subject to racism or not. They might know a bit more about it than you.

Ah ok. Is the dictionary definition also a straw man argument?

Again, life doesn’t work like the way you seem to think it does. You can’t just decide something is racist because you fancy itand then it suddenly becomes racist.

What a dangerous world we’d live in if the accuser was automatically right regardless.

[660]

Ah ok. Is the dictionary definition also a straw man argument?

Again, life doesn’t work like the way you seem to think it does. You can’t just decide something is racist because you fancy itand then it suddenly becomes racist.

Get a nice big crayon and write this down: Webo is allowed to make that judgment

[calumhibee1]

Get a nice big crayon and write this down: Webo is allowed to make that judgment

Get a nice big crayon and write this down:

Racism/racist etc actually have a definition, as much as you seem to think it doesn’t. Webo isn’t allowed to decide that something that doesn’t fit those definitions amounts to racism. In the exact same way that I’m not allowed to like in my post above or I’m also not allowed to claim that someone walking down my street has assaulted me because I’ve suddenly decided that I fancy redefining the word.

[660]

Sigh. Webo made the judgement that what happened was, by definition, racist. He is allowed to make that judgement.

[calumhibee1]

Sigh. Webo made the judgement that what happened was, by definition, racist. He is allowed to make that judgement.

Sigh.

You’ve obviously not read the definition. He’s not allowed to make a judgement that something that isn’t by definition racist, is in fact racist.

Much like I’m not allowed to claim I’ve been murdered by someone who I’ve never met before because of course by definition I haven’t infact been murdered.

The world would be utterly ridiculous if we could just ignore the definition of things and claim that as they fit your own definition, whatever that may be, then we just have to accept it.

[660]

Sigh.

You’ve obviously not read the definition. He’s not allowed to make a judgement that something that isn’t by definition racist, is in fact racist.

Much like I’m not allowed to claim I’ve been murdered by someone who I’ve never met before because of course by definition I haven’t infact been murdered.

The world would be utterly ridiculous if we could just ignore the definition of things and claim that as they fit your own definition, whatever that may be, then we just have to accept it.

You’ve decided that what happened wasn’t racist for some reason and refuse to accept that Webo might have a different opinion. He is allowed a different opinion.

[Newry Hibs]

A few years ago referee mark clattenburg was accuaed of calling Chelsea's mikel a monkey by mikels teammate ramires.

Clattenburg was suspended and thought his career may have finished. Eventually any accusation was dismissed.

So, because ramires thought it was racist, does that mean it was racist? Or perhaps he was mistaken as english wasnt his first language?

[calumhibee1]

You’ve decided that what happened wasn’t racist for some reason and refuse to accept that Webo might have a different opinion. He is allowed a different opinion.

Racist has a definition.

Something being racist isn’t just a matter of opinion. It needs to fall into the definition. Factually describing someone that identifies as a black man as a “black man” doesn’t fit the definition.

[660]

Racist has a definition.

Something being racist isn’t just a matter of opinion. It needs to fall into the definition. Factually describing someone that identifies as a black man as a “black man” doesn’t fit the definition.

“Racist:

prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The officials actions do not in any way fall into that category”

Your last sentence is an opinion.

[660]

Racist has a definition.

Something being racist isn’t just a matter of opinion. It needs to fall into the definition. Factually describing someone that identifies as a black man as a “black man” doesn’t fit the definition.

Depends on context and tone.

[calumhibee1]

“Racist:

prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The officials actions do not in any way fall into that category”

Your last sentence is an opinion.

I could claim that your comment about crayons was antagonistic towards me because I’m white. That would be ridiculous though regardless of opinions.

Much like claiming you’re insulted by being described as exactly what you’d describe yourself as is also absolutely ridiculous.

[660]

I could claim that your comment about crayons was antagonistic towards me because I’m white. That would be ridiculous though regardless of opinions.

Much like claiming you’re insulted by being described as exactly what you’d describe yourself as is also absolutely ridiculous.

My insult about crayons was purely based on your understanding of racism being that of an infant, nothing to do with your ethnicity. Hope this helps.

[calumhibee1]

My insult about crayons was purely based on your understanding of racism being that of an infant, nothing to do with your ethnicity. Hope this helps.

By your logic, you’re not allowed to decide if it was to do with my ethnicity, yet here you are doing just that.

You quite clearly find the idea that I can suggest it’s racist ridiculous, hence why you’re deciding for me that it wasn’t, yet this is exactly what you’re advocating should be allowed.

Watching you contradict yourself and resort to childish insults - no surprises on that front having seen your posts in the past - has been fun though.

[G B Young]

It’s a racist incident because the person involved perceived his behaviour to be racist and the players walked off.

I find people desperately hunting to excuse the officials behaviour more offensive to be honest. Maybe it was his tone, or the context as opposed to the word “black”. I’ll trust the players judgement on that.

There’s no direct or indirect conspiracy. It’s a good thing that BAME issues are discussed. The MSM are covering BLM etc because it’s topical and there was a grassroots reaction to George Floyd. It wasn’t media generated.

I’ve learnt a lot about BAME issues recently and it’s been interesting and enlightening. It’s a shame that people feel the need to take it as some sort of personal attack instead of an opportunity to consider their own behaviour and the status of BAME people within society.

Are people really trying to do that? I don't see anyone on here excusing racist behaviour, just questioning what the alleged racist behaviour actually was in this incident. The lack of detail makes it unclear.

I'm not sure somebody perceiving behaviour to be racist is a reliable barometer by which to brand somebody a racist. There's surely scope for misunderstanding on that basis.

[matty_f]

Racist has a definition.

Something being racist isn’t just a matter of opinion. It needs to fall into the definition. Factually describing someone that identifies as a black man as a “black man” doesn’t fit the definition.

Racism is far more complex than a simple definition to describe it.

It’s little wonder you’re struggling with this situation if you can’t get your head around that idea.

I’m out of this one now, have said all I’m going to say on it.

[calumhibee1]

Racism is far more complex than a simple definition to describe it.

It’s little wonder you’re struggling with this situation if you can’t get your head around that idea.

I’m out of this one now, have said all I’m going to say on it.

It’s really not - at least not to the extent that the definition can be stretched/completely ignored and the label applied to absolutely any situation somebody fancies just because they say so.

Do you think cases go to court and they go ‘’will we just add racially aggravated onto this assault? We could just say we think it is even though it doesn’t fit the definition” of course they don’t. Because racism has a definition and for something to be racist it has to be, by definition, racist.

No struggling with the situation on this side. You do realise if somebody doesn’t agree with your attempts to make racism an undefined free for all it doesn’t make you correct, don’t you?

Thankfully there’s a dictionary and legal definition of racism. The police work to it, the justice system works to it. That’ll do for me and I’ll side with them rather than any individual, be that Webo, Ba or a poster on Hibs.net who reckons it should just be left down to the accuser to decide whether something is racist or not.

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s really not - at least not to the extent that the definition can be stretched/completely ignored and the label applied to absolutely any situation somebody fancies just because they say so.

Do you think cases go to court and they go ‘’will we just add racially aggravated onto this assault? We could just say we think it is even though it doesn’t fit the definition” of course they don’t. Because racism has a definition and for something to be racist it has to be, by definition, racist.

No struggling with the situation on this side. You do realise if somebody doesn’t agree with your attempts to make racism an undefined free for all it doesn’t make you correct, don’t you?

Thankfully there’s a dictionary and legal definition of racism. The police work to it, the justice system works to it. That’ll do for me and I’ll side with them rather than any individual, be that Webo, Ba or a poster on Hibs.net who reckons it should just be left down to the accuser to decide whether something is racist or not.

The CPS definition of racism includes, as one of its criteria, the words "perceived by the victim"

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

[calumhibee1]

The CPS definition of racism includes, as one of its criteria, the words "perceived by the victim"

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

For the case to be flagged. Charges would then be brought if it was deemed to be racist - something that would be deemed based on the definition of racist, not an insistence by the accuser that they’ve decided something was racist.

[CropleyWasGod]

For the case to be flagged. Charges would then be brought if it was deemed to be racist - something that would be deemed based on the definition of racist, not an insistence by the accuser that they’ve decided something was racist.

The point being that perception is important.

[calumhibee1]

The point being that perception is important.

Only important in that they’ll take any accusation of racism seriously. And it’ll then be deemed to either be racist or not based on the definition and not based on the fact somebody told them it was which is really the important part.

[CropleyWasGod]

Only important in that they’ll take any accusation of racism seriously. And it’ll then be deemed to either be racist or not based on the definition and not based on the fact somebody told them it was which is really the important part.

You haven't read the definition part properly.

[calumhibee1]

You haven't read the definition part properly.

But you can’t tell me why? Fancy that.

Are you disagreeing that that’s how the process works?

When the process is completed, the decision as to whether something is racist is based on a definition of racism. Not the fact that the accuser is adamant it’s racist regardless of the definition.

Suggesting racism is much more than a definition as Matty did isn’t really the case at all. Unless of course you’re desperately trying to turn a non-racist comment into a racist one then it would be handy to declare that.

[Speedy]

I don't really want to get involved in the bickering but it's very clear to me that people's idea of racism differs, and these views evolve over time.

People are taught how to interpret these things and the evolving nature of it makes it impossible for people to reach a consensus, particularly in a global environment.

[hibsbollah]

I don't really want to get involved in the bickering .

Its actually embarrassing now.

[CropleyWasGod]

But you can’t tell me why? Fancy that.

Are you disagreeing that that’s how the process works?

When the process is completed, the decision as to whether something is racist is based on a definition of racism. Not the fact that the accuser is adamant it’s racist regardless of the definition.

Suggesting racism is much more than a definition as Matty did isn’t really the case at all. Unless of course you’re desperately trying to turn a non-racist comment into a racist one then it would be handy to declare that.

Read the part that starts with "the CPS uses definitions of racism "

The part that follows the definition is all of the process that would happen in any case....evidence gathering etc.

But the definitions are clear IMO.

[Berwickhibby]

The point being that perception is important.

Perception is a gravity factor but alone does not make an offence, I can only comment on what I have read and imho the evidence would not amount to a Hate Crime in criminal law ... I think perhaps clumsy or language acceptable in Romania ...I still don't see any intent to commit any crime.

[CropleyWasGod]

Perception is a gravity factor but alone does not make an offence, I can only comment on what I have read and imho the evidence would not amount to a Hate Crime in criminal law ... I think perhaps clumsy or language acceptable in Romania ...I still don't see any intent to commit any crime.

I get that. Yes, evidence is important, and the CPS guidance emphasises that.

But the point I'm making is that perception is one of the things that is used to define racism. If there is perceived racism, the definition is satisfied, and the police can then go ahead with evidence-gathering.

[Berwickhibby]

I get that. Yes, evidence is important, and the CPS guidance emphasises that.

But the point I'm making is that perception is one of the things that is used to define racism. If there is perceived racism, the definition is satisfied, and the police can then go ahead with evidence-gathering.

Definitely one of the things used, but I doubt the police would investigate or crime this incident as what I can see there is not the intent or evidence to amount to a hate crime.

[CropleyWasGod]

Definitely one of the things used, but I doubt the police would investigate or crime this incident as what I can see there is not the intent or evidence to amount to a hate crime.

The CPS guidelines suggest that they would have to.

They may then, of course, find no evidence to support the claim, in which case it goes no further. But, again, having established that it fits their own definition, they are locked in to an enquiry.

Translating that to the PSG incident, Demba Ba et al perceive that there was racism...... therefore, in the UK at least, it would have to be investigated.

[Berwickhibby]

The CPS guidelines suggest that they would have to.

They may then, of course, find no evidence to support the claim, in which case it goes no further. But, again, having established that it fits their own definition, they are locked in to an enquiry.

Translating that to the PSG incident, Demba Ba et al perceive that there was racism...... therefore, in the UK at least, it would have to be investigated.

I doubt it would get passed the call handler...never mind an officer being allocated to deal....there are genuine hate crimes with violence and damage that the police struggle to get through the CPS to get in front of court.

[calumhibee1]

Translating that to the PSG incident, Demba Ba et al perceive that there was racism...... therefore, in the UK at least, it would have to be investigated.

And at this point it would be decided not to bring any charges as it isn’t by definition racist. Regardless of what Demba Ba and Webo think.

Which is the point I’m trying to make. At the end of the day, the definition of racist holds much more weight than the concept of everybody having the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended by - the complete opposite of a lot of this thread.

[CropleyWasGod]

And at this point it would be decided not to bring any charges as it isn’t by definition racist. Regardless of what Demba Ba and Webo think.

Which is the point I’m trying to make. At the end of the day, the definition of racist holds much more weight than the concept of everybody having the right to be offended by whatever they want to be offended by - the complete opposite of a lot of this thread.

You haven't read the CPS definition.

I think I'm out. 😙

[Berwickhibby]

You haven't read the CPS definition.

I think I'm out. 😙

Not only have I read them but I have also applied them, in the majority of criminal law the prosecution have to prove intent or recklessness which as far as I have seen does not appear in this case. Investigations normally include arrests which I would suggest would be unlawful on what I have read. I am not trying to down play racist incidents in which there are many happening every day and those committing are rightly being challenged and criminally charged. I just don't see it on this occasion.

[calumhibee1]

Not only have I read them but I have also applied them, in the majority of criminal law the prosecution have to prove intent or recklessness which as far as I have seen does not appear in this case. Investigations normally include arrests which I would suggest would be unlawful on what I have read. I am not trying to down play racist incidents in which there are many happening every day and those committing are rightly being challenged and criminally charged. I just don't see it on this occasion.

:agree:

[Andy74]

Found the article I'd referred to previously:

Someone recently came into my office and asked, “Where can I find Tolani?”

The receptionist replied, “Oh, Tolani is the lady in the white top.” Two other women in the office were wearing white tops.

She tried again, “The woman with brown hair.”

Three other women in the office had brown hair. She was running out of ways to describe me, so I helped her out: waving my hands I cheerfully replied, “It’s me, the black woman over here.”

I was the only black woman – the only black person – in this office. There was an immediate reaction to me saying the word “black”. The office instantly felt awkward, uncomfortable even. As if I had said a racist slur. And I get it: racial terminology can be daunting for white people.

But just so we’re clear, I am a black woman and I would like to be referred to as one.

The awkwardness felt in my office seems to be shared by many white people. It explains why black people are commonly referred to as “people of colour”. And although the term feels inclusive and politically correct, and is better than the previously used term “coloured”, I am still not here for it.

[G B Young]

Found the article I'd referred to previously:

Someone recently came into my office and asked, “Where can I find Tolani?”

The receptionist replied, “Oh, Tolani is the lady in the white top.” Two other women in the office were wearing white tops.

She tried again, “The woman with brown hair.”

Three other women in the office had brown hair. She was running out of ways to describe me, so I helped her out: waving my hands I cheerfully replied, “It’s me, the black woman over here.”

I was the only black woman – the only black person – in this office. There was an immediate reaction to me saying the word “black”. The office instantly felt awkward, uncomfortable even. As if I had said a racist slur. And I get it: racial terminology can be daunting for white people.

But just so we’re clear, I am a black woman and I would like to be referred to as one.

The awkwardness felt in my office seems to be shared by many white people. It explains why black people are commonly referred to as “people of colour”. And although the term feels inclusive and politically correct, and is better than the previously used term “coloured”, I am still not here for it.

I posted something similar earlier in the thread. The fact that pereception alone can be enough to spark an enquiry was news to me, but the question that nobody seems able to answer (largely to a lack of information about this particular incident I think) is why the term 'black' would be perceived to be racist here. I can only assume there must be more to it.