The race for second place

[wookie70]

With Lennon having now completely undone the work of Rodgers we really need to start realistically thinking about second place. That means preparing for the winter window with a view to taking as many calculated risks as we can to have as good a chance of second as possible. This year might be a year for trying to survive for many clubs but we have a genuine chance of challenging for second as Celtc look like they may implode under Lennon. We need to be in a position to pounce as we may never get a better shot at it. I'm generally in the prudence camp when it comes to Hibs finances but there is a great chance of reaping the benefits of Lennon's horrific management of Celtc and we need to speculate to accumulate imo.

[ekhibee]

They've got megabucks, a lot more than The Rangers and obviously more than any other team in Scotland. They'll spend big during the winter break after they've got rid of Lennon.

[wookie70]

They've got megabucks, a lot more than The Rangers and obviously more than any other team in Scotland. They'll spend big during the winter break after they've got rid of Lennon.

They may well spend big but they will also have very little to play for and a team that has completely lost belief and momentum. It isn't easy sorting out the mess Lennon leaves as Heck found out. They may well take some time to get used to having a manager that does tactics and other basics.

[Sir David Gray]

I can't see us finishing within 15-20 points of Celtic by the end of the season to be honest but it would be good to challenge them for as long as possible.

Celtic's only 6 points worse off than they were this time last year, they have been poor no doubt about it but it's been magnified by the start Rangers have made.

3rd's the aim for me, if we can finish above Aberdeen I'd be delighted.

[Wakeyhibee]

Hoping for both their Board and The Spleen Brigade to issue statements that further entrench their positions against each other.

Then there might be room for an upset

[Unseen work]

I’d rather concentrate on beating Aberdeen to 3rd never mind Celtic for second.

Jack Ross mentioned a lot in the summer that the best time to add more quality is when you’re already strong and in a good place. I hope he reiterates this to Ron Gordon and we see more quality come in as it will be needed.

[Carheenlea]

We have spent more on the squad than many were expecting during last window. We are spending as much as we can afford to assemble the best squad we can rather than assembling a squad to finish in a particular league position.

Can’t see that model changing anytime soon. Celtic will more than likely be throwing some big money around in next window with a new manager in place. They’ll spend to try avoid finishing second, and spend to avoid finishing third.

[greenlex]

Has anyone hear from Chris Sutton? I’m worried about him.

[murray26]

3rds the race Lennon won’t last much longer unfortunately

[greenlex]

We have spent more on the squad than many were expecting during last window. We are spending as much as we can afford to assemble the best squad we can rather than assembling a squad to finish in a particular league position.

Can’t see that model changing anytime soon. Celtic will more than likely be throwing some big money around in next window with a new manager in place. They’ll spend to try avoid finishing second, and spend to avoid finishing third.
Celtic look devoid of creating anything without pace in the wide areas. If they’re chucking stupid money around in a few weeks how much would prise Boyle away from us?

[jellybean]

Has anyone hear from Chris Sutton? I’m worried about him.

😂😂😂I'm enjoying the quiet.....

[CMurdoch]

We have spent more on the squad than many were expecting during last window. We are spending as much as we can afford to assemble the best squad we can rather than assembling a squad to finish in a particular league position.

Can’t see that model changing anytime soon. Celtic will more than likely be throwing some big money around in next window with a new manager in place. They’ll spend to try avoid finishing second, and spend to avoid finishing third.

Hibs have already spent circa £300k on Nisbet & £200k on Magennis this season.
The rest of the squad (Doidge £300k & Mallan £200k) was purchased for a similar amount so not seeing us spending more cash in a forlorn hope of being 2nd, this season, of all seasons.
Cellik spent £4.5 million on an average goalie this season already and anyone other than Master N. Lennon could keep them ahead of Hibs.

[CMurdoch]

Celtic look devoid of creating anything without pace in the wide areas. If they’re chucking stupid money around in a few weeks how much would prise Boyle away from us?

A Martin Boyle won't sort that cluster****.
They have the players but they don't play as a team, don't work smart enough with the ball and don't work hard enough without it. In essence a lazy shambles.
They need to cut their losses with Lennon and put Kennedy in charge until the end of the season or at least until they can get the right person in.
This season is gone for them. They have imploded spectacularly as we did in his last season with us.
The clubs should bring a combined DVD out entitled "When Lennon Goes Wrong"

[Keith_M]

...
They have the players but they don't play as a team, don't work smart enough with the ball and don't work hard enough without it. In essence a lazy shambles.
...


Totally agree.

They showed how good they were when they beat us 3-0 but seem to have totally imploded since then.

[Gloucester Hibs]

Looks like they have Killie at home next Sunday, as much as I’d like to see Celtic slip up, the thought of them going into the SC final on the back of such a wretched run gives me the fear!

[Hillsidehibby]

A fit Scott Allan and it’s in the bag

[Hibby70]

Couldn't give two hoots if Hearts win the cup if it means Celtic completely collapse this season and we finish second.

[1van Sprou7e]

Couldn't give two hoots if Hearts win the cup if it means Celtic completely collapse this season and we finish second.

Hearts winning the cup would mean they got rid of lennon, we want celtic to win that game for 2 reasons

[Sir David Gray]

Couldn't give two hoots if Hearts win the cup if it means Celtic completely collapse this season and we finish second.

I don't want Hearts to win the pre-match coin toss, never mind the cup itself.

[ABZHFC]

Couldn't give two hoots if Hearts win the cup if it means Celtic completely collapse this season and we finish second.

I'm with you on this. Maybe it's the lack of fans in the ground, but I honestly won't care all that much if they win it. It would be a great achievement for them that I'm sure they'd go on about, and I'd be annoyed at us for allowing it with a poor semi-final performance, but I think they would feel pretty hollow if they won it (similarly, I would have felt the same way had we won it in these behind closed doors circumstances).

The old saying 'football is nothing without fans' has never been shown to be more true than in the past 8 months or so.

I'd rather focus on a charge towards second place, the benefits of which we would reap when fans are back in stadiums next season.

And yes, I know people will say I'm saying this with hindsight, but this truly has been my opinion even before the semi-final fixture. I have hurt far more losing run-of-the-mill league fixtures against them where a full crowd was present than I hurt losing a semi to them in front of an empty Hampden

[Keith_M]

We're not in a race for second place.

Celtc will probably spend big in January, get a new manager and be out of sight within weeks.

[Magpie]

I don't want Hearts to win the pre-match coin toss, never mind the cup itself.

😂

[hibbysam]

We're not in a race for second place.

Celtc will probably spend big in January, get a new manager and be out of sight within weeks.

January is weeks away though. We’re two behind Celtic as it stands. I’m not for a second saying we will finish above them, but we have every chance to pile pressure onto them, starting next week when we can go above them. If we win every game between now and Xmas then we will be sitting second in the league while eating our Turkey.

They can spend as big as they like, they spent millions on a keeper that is hopeless, there’s no guarantee any signings will suddenly have them firing.

[Lendo]

Who are their games in hand against?

[Sir David Gray]

Who are their games in hand against?

Aberdeen and St Mirren.

[Keith_M]

January is weeks away though. We’re two behind Celtic as it stands. I’m not for a second saying we will finish above them, but we have every chance to pile pressure onto them, starting next week when we can go above them. If we win every game between now and Xmas then we will be sitting second in the league while eating our Turkey.

They can spend as big as they like, they spent millions on a keeper that is hopeless, there’s no guarantee any signings will suddenly have them firing.


But I don't like turkey.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I would be delighted with third, which, realistically, is our ceiling.

[worcesterhibby]

historically (with a strong Ranges and Celtic in the league) you need about 84 points on average for 2nd place, which is about 2.18 points per game. Even more recently with No Rangers or a weakened Rangers it has usually taken about 73 points to get second which is 1.92 points per game..we are currently averaging 1.81 points per game, so would need to do better, particularly as matches get harder in the last 5 games of the season. If we finish in 3rd we will have done a terrific job.

[wookie70]

historically (with a strong Ranges and Celtic in the league) you need about 84 points on average for 2nd place, which is about 2.18 points per game. Even more recently with No Rangers or a weakened Rangers it has usually taken about 73 points to get second which is 1.92 points per game..we are currently averaging 1.81 points per game, so would need to do better, particularly as matches get harder in the last 5 games of the season. If we finish in 3rd we will have done a terrific job.

3rd will be a good result but I genuinely think we have an outside chance of 2nd. In my opinion that will take some investment. That investment would of course make it more likely we finish 3rd if we sign the right players and also allow players to get settled before next season where the league will likely be harder to finish 3rd in.

My view is all based on the very special set of circumstances this year. Celtc going for 10IAR with Lennon as manager and it all unravelling. Combine that turmoil with players who will take time to come together and who will not have the benefit of 60K home fans and more fans than some of the home teams at away grounds. We are approaching Christmas and are still completely in touch with Celtc so I see this as a time to roll the dice. LD leaving may well put a spanner in the works as Ron might not want to spend big without the new CEO in post. I'm not talking about Hearts or The Rangers type of spending here I am hoping we perhaps bring forward spending that is planned for later or redirect and infrastructure spending to the playing side. Tactical spending to try and take and opportunity rather than reckless spending with a huge reward if successful.

[worcesterhibby]

3rd will be a good result but I genuinely think we have an outside chance of 2nd. In my opinion that will take some investment. That investment would of course make it more likely we finish 3rd if we sign the right players and also allow players to get settled before next season where the league will likely be harder to finish 3rd in.

My view is all based on the very special set of circumstances this year. Celtc going for 10IAR with Lennon as manager and it all unravelling. Combine that turmoil with players who will take time to come together and who will not have the benefit of 60K home fans and more fans than some of the home teams at away grounds. We are approaching Christmas and are still completely in touch with Celtc so I see this as a time to roll the dice. LD leaving may well put a spanner in the works as Ron might not want to spend big without the new CEO in post. I'm not talking about Hearts or The Rangers type of spending here I am hoping we perhaps bring forward spending that is planned for later or redirect and infrastructure spending to the playing side. Tactical spending to try and take and opportunity rather than reckless spending with a huge reward if successful.

maybe, but even in their current slump season, Celtic are averaging 2.2 points per game..to our 1.8. Play that out and they will end up on 83 points and we will be on 68. Aberdeen are on nearly 1.9 points per game and are heading for 70 points by the end of the season...I would suggest they are our real rivals.

The really depressing thing is that Rangers are averaging 2.75 points per game and currently heading for 104 points !!

[hibbysam]

maybe, but even in their current slump season, Celtic are averaging 2.2 points per game..to our 1.8. Play that out and they will end up on 83 points and we will be on 68. Aberdeen are on nearly 1.9 points per game and are heading for 70 points by the end of the season...I would suggest they are our real rivals.

The really depressing thing is that Rangers are averaging 2.75 points per game and currently heading for 104 points !!

Average points really doesn’t matter though. We’re in touch with them and if their slump continues for any longer then they will be in real trouble and start panicking. It’s a huge period for us between now and Xmas. A real chance to get points on the board and put both Celtic and Aberdeen under real pressure, while putting a big gap between us and the rest of the league.

[MWHIBBIES]

Celtic look devoid of creating anything without pace in the wide areas. If they’re chucking stupid money around in a few weeks how much would prise Boyle away from us?

They wouldn't be interested in Boyle.

[Onion]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

[hibbysam]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

I’m reading that and trying to understand it, you reckon a team that is behind us in December, has a chance of catching the team above us, but we’ll be 20+ points behind and essentially saying we have an outside chance of 4th when miles clear of 5th already. Mental.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m reading that and trying to understand it, you reckon a team that is behind us in December, has a chance of catching the team above us, but we’ll be 20+ points behind and essentially saying we have an outside chance of 4th when miles clear of 5th already. Mental.

You are forgetting something vital: this is Hibs. Never underestimate our capacity to make a James Hunt of it :greengrin

[wookie70]

I’m reading that and trying to understand it, you reckon a team that is behind us in December, has a chance of catching the team above us, but we’ll be 20+ points behind and essentially saying we have an outside chance of 4th when miles clear of 5th already. Mental.

That seems to be what they said. That is a ridiculously pessimistic view if you ask me. We may have a puncher's chance of second but everything suggests Aberdeen and us are the likely 3rd and 4th teams and the order is as yet undetermined. I'm wanting a shoot for the stars approach from the board but given 3rd and 4th enter Europe at the same round and the prize money isn't hugely different in the league I suspect we will continue our quest for best of the rest. I totally agree with that as an overall objective but this year is very different and I want us to at least look to see what we could do to give the best chance of 2nd. Outside chance it may be but if we are a couple of points behind or even possibly ahead of Celtc at Christmas we need to at least consider a push for second, particularly if Lennon is still there.

[Since90+2]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

Hibs have punchers chance of 4th? That would mean we have an outside chance essentially.

Out of interest which team are you quite confidently placing above us in 4th place?

[davhibby]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

What from Aberdeen’s last 3 results in all comps gives you the idea that they’ll be sailing away ahead of us any time soon?

[hibbysam]

That seems to be what they said. That is a ridiculously pessimistic view if you ask me. We may have a puncher's chance of second but everything suggests Aberdeen and us are the likely 3rd and 4th teams and the order is as yet undetermined. I'm wanting a shoot for the stars approach from the board but given 3rd and 4th enter Europe at the same round and the prize money isn't hugely different in the league I suspect we will continue our quest for best of the rest. I totally agree with that as an overall objective but this year is very different and I want us to at least look to see what we could do to give the best chance of 2nd. Outside chance it may be but if we are a couple of points behind or even possibly ahead of Celtc at Christmas we need to at least consider a push for second, particularly if Lennon is still there.

I can’t see it happening, but the longer their run goes on, the more chance we have. We just need to keep winning and putting pressure on. I’m hoping the poster just doesn’t really know what ‘a punchers chance’ actually means.

[Smartie]

What from Aberdeen’s last 3 results in all comps gives you the idea that they’ll be sailing away ahead of us any time soon?

Every team is going to have a blip or a few ropey results in a row.

I thought Aberdeen looked comfortably better than us the twice we played them.

3rd would be an absolutely outstanding achievement for us.

Ross has been good at finding ways to beat the wee teams which has made us part of this conversation at least.

Without significant improvement to the centre of our midfield I don’t see us getting any points off them head to head this season.

[B.H.F.C]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

A punchers chance of fourth? Really, you only think we have a punchers chance of fourth?

We’re nearly half way through the season and have a nine point advantage over the team in fifth!

[worcesterhibby]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

I know you've already has a bit of a pounding for this..but since i've done the average points thing for the top four, lets look at it for those you perceive us to be trying to punch to get 4th.. Dundee utd average points 1.25 per match..at that rate they will end up with 47 points (21 points behind our projected if we keep up our points per game) Killi are on 1.13 so projected to end up on 42pts (26pts behind us) and St Johnstone are on 1.06 so projected to gain 40points (28 behind us).

I think we have better than a punchers chance of 4th.

[Juniper Greens]

I know you've already has a bit of a pounding for this..but since i've done the average points thing for the top four, lets look at it for those you perceive us to be trying to punch to get 4th.. Dundee utd average points 1.25 per match..at that rate they will end up with 47 points (21 points behind our projected if we keep up our points per game) Killi are on 1.13 so projected to end up on 42pts (26pts behind us) and St Johnstone are on 1.06 so projected to gain 40points (28 behind us).

I think we have better than a punchers chance of 4th.
Did you buy a new calculator or something today? Jeez give it a rest with the maths

[Sir David Gray]

We're in no race for 2nd. Celtic will be 20+ points ahead of Hibs t the end of the season, with only Aberdeen with a very outside chance of being close to them.

TheRFC, Celtic, Aberdeen top 3 with Hibs having a puncher's chance of bagging 4th.

If we finish any lower than 4th I'll be pretty annoyed about that considering where we are right now.

[Hibernia&Alba]

When did we last finish in the top two?

[worcesterhibby]

Did you buy a new calculator or something today? Jeez give it a rest with the maths

Old calculator and I thought it was quite interesting :na na:

[Eyrie]

When did we last finish in the top two?

1974/75.

[davhibby]

Every team is going to have a blip or a few ropey results in a row.

I thought Aberdeen looked comfortably better than us the twice we played them.

3rd would be an absolutely outstanding achievement for us.

Ross has been good at finding ways to beat the wee teams which has made us part of this conversation at least.

Without significant improvement to the centre of our midfield I don’t see us getting any points off them head to head this season.

I didn’t think there really was anything in either of the games and we’ve gifted them 3 goals and that’s been the difference. Must say though that if we don’t beat them at home when we next play them we’ll certainly be making it difficult for ourselves

[Hibernia&Alba]

1974/75.

Cheers, so it's 45 years. I'm not getting my hopes up.

[lucky]

I don’t see up finishing anywhere near the top 2. We are in a fight with Aberdeen for 3rd. It’s disappointing that they’ve taken 6 points of us already this season. I can’t see any other club getting near the top 4. The OF will battle out for the league, us and the Dons 3/4. United, Well, Killie and St J for the other top 6 spots. Relegation battle between the rest.

[Juniper Greens]

I think we aren't quite out of sight for 4th yet. A key injury or a poor run of form could easily see us slip down into the clutches of the teams around the middle of the table.
I agree that keeping pace with Celtic is unlikely as they will surely get through this lack of form at some point. I was also impressed with aberdeen both times we played them and noted the relative strength of their bench.
I think 4th is most likely and I'd probably take it in such a turbulent season, any better would be superb and in particular 3rd isn't inconceivable, especially if Cosgrove leaves.
Any lower than 4th would be bitterly disappointing, but is still possible, and in my view, 5th is more likely than 3rd for us.

[Smartie]

I didn’t think there really was anything in either of the games and we’ve gifted them 3 goals and that’s been the difference. Must say though that if we don’t beat them at home when we next play them we’ll certainly be making it difficult for ourselves

I think that’s mainly down to their “pragmatic” style. Once in front, they don’t exactly pile forward in pursuit of loads more goals to make it comfortable, giving the impression of a close game.

We’ve gifted goals. They’ve not even allowed us a sight of goal.

I’d be interested in where they’ve gone wrong in their past few games because imo they’ve been totally in control of their games with us after going in front.

I think they’re a “first goal is everything” team. They get it, more often than not they win.

We got the first goal against them at ER last season, coaxed them out and in the end we were good value for our impressive 3-0 win.

[Since452]

I didn’t think there really was anything in either of the games and we’ve gifted them 3 goals and that’s been the difference. Must say though that if we don’t beat them at home when we next play them we’ll certainly be making it difficult for ourselves

I thought we were by far the better team at Easter Road and missed a few great chances before Boyle had a complete brain fart. Could and should have been a couple of goals up by then. When they went one up they controlled it. They've made defending a lead an art over McInnes's time there.

[erin go bragh]

Celtic have won two games in their last 12 and still they are 2pts above us, with 2 games in hand .
3rd would be a very good season but 2nd is a pipe dream imo.

[hibbysam]

Celtic have won two games in their last 12 and still they are 2pts above us, with 2 games in hand .
3rd would be a very good season but 2nd is a pipe dream imo.

More than half of those games were cup or European games though. Whether it’s a ‘pipe dream’ or not, until it’s dead I’m hardly going to be conceding anything. As unlikely as it would be, we’re on their tails and they’re in turmoil.

[Sir David Gray]

More than half of those games were cup or European games though. Whether it’s a ‘pipe dream’ or not, until it’s dead I’m hardly going to be conceding anything. As unlikely as it would be, we’re on their tails and they’re in turmoil.

Surely the fact that a lot of these 12 matches were European games makes it even less likely that we'll get 2nd?

They've won just once in their last five league matches and still find themselves two points above us with two games in hand.

It's a nice thought to think that we might finish second but I don't see it sadly.

If we are still two points behind them going into the match at Parkhead next month and we beat them then I might change my mind.

[hibbysam]

Surely the fact that a lot of these 12 matches were European games makes it even less likely that we'll get 2nd?

They've won just once in their last five league matches and still find themselves two points above us with two games in hand.

It's a nice thought to think that we might finish second but I don't see it sadly.

If we are still two points behind them going into the match at Parkhead next month and we beat them then I might change my mind.

That shows how strong a start to the season they had. Sunday was a game in hand and they drew it. I don’t doubt it’s highly unlikely, however we are right up their hoop just now, with a very favourable fixture run coming up. We could quite conceivably be ahead of them at Christmas, half way through the season. We just need to continue our consistency. If they turn on the style then I’ve no doubt they’ll finish clear in second, they have to turn it in though and there’s very little easy games nowadays for them.

[Smartie]

In fairness to Hibs, we've done some quite outstanding business in the past few January transfer windows. We've managed to get some really good players in on loan in recent years to address the obvious weaknesses in our team and I'd hope we might be able to do the same again.

We all probably agree that the centre of midfield isn't right yet, it needs more energy amongst other things. The rest of the team is really pretty good, if a bit short of cover for when players are missing.

I've not been blown away by us so far this season, we've been decent at times, clinical at times, dull at times, awful at times - yet we're within a few points of Celtic.

If we could get players in to address our shortcomings anything like as effectively as Allan, McLaren, Kamberi, Omeonga, McNulty or Docherty have done in recent years then we might have reason to look up the way rather than down, especially if our current players managed to grind out results in our winnable fixtures this month.

[Lago]

When did we last finish in the top two?
1974 - 1975?

[Sir David Gray]

That shows how strong a start to the season they had. Sunday was a game in hand and they drew it. I don’t doubt it’s highly unlikely, however we are right up their hoop just now, with a very favourable fixture run coming up. We could quite conceivably be ahead of them at Christmas, half way through the season. We just need to continue our consistency. If they turn on the style then I’ve no doubt they’ll finish clear in second, they have to turn it in though and there’s very little easy games nowadays for them.

I'm being pedantic as I know what you mean but Sunday's game wasn't really a game in hand for them as such. They went into the weekend with two games in hand and finished it with two games in hand.

We have obviously cut the gap by two points though which is clearly a positive. I would love to finish ahead of them, it would be a massive achievement for the club to finish above Celtic but I just don't see it happening. Despite their obvious troubles, they have still not lost a league game to any team other than Rangers for well over a year.

That stat alone will need to change soon if we're going to have any chance of finishing above them.