Millwall Fans Booing The Players

[Keith_M]

...for taking the knee before the game.



https://twitter.com/i/status/1335244473069088774


:rolleyes:

[Vault Boy]

Entirely unsurprising for them, unfortunately. Glad that they then watched their team lose the game.

[hibsbollah]

That’s not one or two fans either, loud and clear.

[Lendo]

Only 2,000 or so fans there today, if Millwall really wanted to it wouldn’t be impossible to identify them (but as Hibsbollah said it certainly wasn’t small numbers of fans)

[Northernhibee]

Lowlife ****.

[bringbackbenny]

Entirely unsurprising for them, unfortunately. Glad that they then watched their team lose the game.

Well said, they have a unsavoury element in their core support. Is it a minority?

[Hibernia&Alba]

They wouldn't be alone. Every club with a hardcore of far right nutters would be just the same, sadly: Chelsea, Rangers, Hearts, Airdrie, Portsmouth, Leeds, and probably several more who denounce BLM as some Marxist conspiracy.

[heretoday]

They seem to attract pond life. What was the reaction at Ibrox when the knee was taken?

[CropleyWasGod]

They seem to attract pond life. What was the reaction at Ibrox when the knee was taken?

Ref waved play on.

Should've been red. It was late and high

[SteveHFC]

They seem to attract pond life. What was the reaction at Ibrox when the knee was taken?

Penalty to Rangers.

[Lendo]

I just noticed there was no knee taken in out game today. Was it a minutes silence?

[Peevemor]

I just noticed there was no knee taken in out game today. Was it a minutes silence?Yes, for Maradona.

[hibsbollah]

I just noticed there was no knee taken in out game today. Was it a minutes silence?

There was a minutes silence for Maradona so maybe that was deemed enough.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Penalty to Rangers.

:not worth

:top marks

[Lendo]

Anyone else notice the “Every Life Matters” ad on the Motherwell stand hoarding today. Not sure what this is in relation to, perhaps nothing to do with racism or equality. Just thought it was interesting.

[Radium]

Anyone else notice the “Every Life Matters” ad on the Motherwell stand hoarding today. Not sure what this is in relation to, perhaps nothing to do with racism or equality. Just thought it was interesting.

This is a suicide awareness campaign. Something that is consistently promoted by Motherwell

[James Stephen]

Anyone else notice the “Every Life Matters” ad on the Motherwell stand hoarding today. Not sure what this is in relation to, perhaps nothing to do with racism or equality. Just thought it was interesting.

Is that maybe in relation to their mental health campaign?

[Lendo]

This is a suicide awareness campaign. Something that is consistently promoted by Motherwell

Question answered. Cheers for that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is a suicide awareness campaign. Something that is consistently promoted by Motherwell

Yes, and good on them. They have been involved with that for many years.

[660]

The same type of cretins who support rangers who people here have been fawning over recently.

[Lendo]

The same type of cretins who support rangers who people here have been fawning over recently.

The comments on Rangers Media are very much of a congratulatory nature for their bigot cousins south of the border.

[tamig]

The same type of cretins who support rangers who people here have been fawning over recently.

What fawning has been going on? People commenting on the onfield hun performances this season? Don’t see the connection with the mindset of hun/Millwall followers sorry.

[The dalmeny]

Odious club

[660]

The comments on Rangers Media are very much of a congratulatory nature for their bigot cousins south of the border.

Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The comments on Rangers Media are very much of a congratulatory nature for their bigot cousins south of the border.

Not a surprise; it's consistent with a warped view of the world. Are they denouncing BLM as Marxist, though they know nothing at all about either?

[Hillsidehibby]

They seem to attract pond life. What was the reaction at Ibrox when the knee was taken?
They were already up to their knees in something

[Sir David Gray]

Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.

Where's the sympathetic comments about?

[Keith_M]

The same type of cretins who support rangers who people here have been fawning over recently.


Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.



What on earth are you on about?

:confused:

[Hiber-nation]

Where's the sympathetic comments about?

There were none. Just some people rightly saying that the Rangers were playing well. We still despise them.

[tamig]

What on earth are you on about?

:confused:

Suspect we could be waiting a while with this one. Absolute nonsense.

[Up The Bracket]

Seen plenty Hibs fans on social media criticise the Black Lives Matter movement, thankfully we’ll never be as bad as Millwall but the Dikamona incident we had a few years ago shows we still have a racism issue within our own support too.

Fingers crossed once we’re allowed back in, anyone who pipes up with that ***** is started on by the people near them.

[Hermit Crab]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno:

[wookie70]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno: For as long as it takes and the Millwall fans are a great example of why it needs to continue

[The 90+2]

Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.


Rangers are the best team in the league.

Rangers are ****bags.

**** Neil Lennon

**** Celtic

**** Rangers.



Simple enough? :confused:


Oh aye, **** ten in a row. :aok:

[The 90+2]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno:


I thought it was until rainbow month?

[Hermit Crab]

For as long as it takes and the Millwall fans are a great example of why it needs to continue


Bobby Madden never took a knee today, does that make him a Millwall fan and should he be sacked? :dunno:

[Northernhibee]

For as long as it takes and the Millwall fans are a great example of why it needs to continue

Lewis Hamilton put it very well in asking a fellow driver when the last time that he thought about being white was. He then explained that he has to think about being black every day in social and professional situations.

That's the big thing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno:

When it's run its course, I would replace it with a clenched fist salute. Enjoy the even bigger meltdoon :greengrin

[Hermit Crab]

When it's run its course, I would replace it with a clenched fist salute. Enjoy the even bigger meltdoon :greengrin


:tee hee:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Lewis Hamilton put it very well in asking a fellow driver when the last time that he thought about being white was. He then explained that he has to think about being black every day in social and professional situations.

That's the big thing.

Yet Lewis Hamilton bolted to Switzerland at the first opportunity, in order to pay no tax. How about putting his money where is mooth is to tackle injustice?

[Hermit Crab]

Yet Lewis Hamilton bolted to Switzerland at the first opportunity, in order to pay no tax. How about putting his money where is mooth is to tackle injustice?


Correct, and he got into bother for wearing that t shirt about arresting police officers.

[660]

Rangers are the best team in the league.

Rangers are ****bags.

**** Neil Lennon

**** Celtic

**** Rangers.



Simple enough? :confused:


Oh aye, **** ten in a row. :aok:

Not really - you’re equating rangers with Celtic when one is clearly worse than the other.

I find it similar to the “all lives matter” drivel that ignorant morons parrot

[The 90+2]

Not really - you’re equating rangers with Celtic when one is clearly worse than the other.

I find it similar to the “all lives matter” drivel that ignorant morons parrot

Fair point. I usually find they types are hun *****.

And no, no club is worse than the other and it’s not clear. For huns acting racist **** see Celtic celebrate terrorism.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Fair point. I usually find they types are hun *****.

And no, no club is worse than the other and it’s not clear. For huns acting racist **** see Celtic celebrate terrorism.

The Rangers also celebrate terrorism, in terms of Loyalist groups: Here Lies A Soldier, Father's Advice, We Are Not Sectarian etc.

I'm not defending the idiots and bigots in the Celtc support, but Rangers are unmatched in terms of bigotry and poison: everything from a century of discriminatory signing policy, to the orange kits of today. "A permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace", as they were once infamously described.

[marinello59]

Penalty to Rangers.

:top marks
:greengrin

[Stonewall]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno:

That’s the start of a potentially interesting post, please flesh it out into an argument.

I am interested.

[O'Rourke3]

Yet Lewis Hamilton bolted to Switzerland at the first opportunity, in order to pay no tax. How about putting his money where is mooth is to tackle injustice?How do you know he doesn't? What has where he lives got to do with his beliefs?

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[Jones28]

Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.

What planet are you on?

[Jones28]

It should keep happening until this ****ing bull**** stops.

[660]

What planet are you on?

Great argument thanks for this

[Hibernia&Alba]

How do you know he doesn't? What has where he lives got to do with his beliefs?

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He grew up on a council estate - social housing - which is a wonderful policy of social justice. However, he left for Switzerland when the money came in from racing. Most Formula 1 drivers are residents of Switzerland and Monaco, and it's no coincidence. If someone truly believes in fighting injustice, beyond the symbolism of t-shirts etc, how about they don't become tax exiles but instead pay to help those growing up in the same circumstances as themselves? Don't disappear in order to have even more more money they don't need. I think that's fair.

[Jones28]

Great argument thanks for this

Let’s some examples of Hibs fans on this forum sympathising with rangers fans then.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Let’s some examples of Hibs fans on this forum sympathising with rangers fans then.

Hullo, Hullo, I am a Billy boy :greengrin

[The 90+2]

Let’s some examples of Hibs fans on this forum sympathising with rangers fans then.


I genuinely cant think of any, ever.

[superfurryhibby]

Let’s some examples of Hibs fans on this forum sympathising with rangers fans then.

I think he believes that saying Rangers are playing well and getting results with good football means sympathising with the Hun.

Just as well I never mentioned how much I like the current strip, or went on about how the Sash is still a good tune, despite the “theme”

[Jones28]

I think he believes that saying Rangers are playing well and getting results with good football means sympathising with the Hun.

Just as well I never mentioned how much I like the current strip, or went on about how the Sash is still a good tune, despite the “theme”

I have said in the past and still maintain that Celtic losing ten in a row would be funnier than the seethe from Rangers fans if they got ten in a row - is that sympathising?

[The 90+2]

I think he believes that saying Rangers are playing well and getting results with good football means sympathising with the Hun.

Just as well I never mentioned how much I like the current strip, or went on about how the Sash is still a good tune, despite the “theme”

I like the 3-2 red advert as a reminder on their strips tbf.

[The 90+2]

I have said in the past and still maintain that Celtic losing ten in a row would be funnier than the seethe from Rangers fans if they got ten in a row - is that sympathising?

No. It’s normal. 👌

[stoneyburn hibs]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.

But what about Ibrox, Dens Park, Excelsior, Tiny etc? Every bit as depraved as Millwall.

[FilipinoHibs]

Sad that this is still going in there. Lived in South London for a few years and had many asian and Caribbean family friends who were Millwall fans and worked with other supporters to overcome racism at the club. That was nearly 20 years ago.

[Souter96Mac]

If we are serious about the fight against racism, action needs to be taken against Millwall fans. People can't get away with this sort of behaviour.

[AltheHibby]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.

Really? So we're all the same as Millwall fans down here? Yout comment is just as racist and/or bigoted in its intent as the Millwall fans booing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Really? So we're all the same as Millwall fans down here?

Naw, only the Tories :greengrin

[AltheHibby]

Naw, only the Tories :greengrin

My German gay Tory friend would disagree!

[Vault Boy]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.

Less of that.

We can pretend it's not a UK-wide issue, or indeed a global one, but that doesn't help us get anywhere.

As for the independence chatter, please keep the irrelevant politics to the Holy Ground! :greengrin

[Iggy Pope]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.

Lots of knuckleheads in Scotlandshire running about to protect statues in George Square not long ago. What do we do come this great independence? Deport them?

[Dublin07]

My German gay Tory friend would disagree!

I would bet your German gay tory friend is racist though most tories are. The German and gay part don't really matter.

[Dublin07]

Lots of knuckleheads in Scotlandshire running about to protect statues in George Square not long ago. What do we do come this great independence? Deport them?

They are a tiny majority in Scotland. They wouldhave a voice in a democratic independent Scotland. As most Scots are decent human beings their voice would be a small one.

[AltheHibby]

I would bet your German gay tory friend is racist though most tories are. The German and gay part don't really matter.

He's not racist. He's one of the nicest people you can meet.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

But what about Ibrox, Dens Park, Excelsior, Tiny etc? Every bit as depraved as Millwall.

The Excelsior is (from my experience of Airdrie fans) for the morons in North Lanarkshire that are too bigoted for Ibrox... Says a lot

[dalkeith stu]

What do we do come this great independence? Deport them?

If only we could!!!!

[WhileTheChief..]

I would bet your German gay tory friend is racist though most tories are. The German and gay part don't really matter.

Most Tories are racist? Do one eh.

Hows this sort of post even allowed on here?

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Excelsior is (from my experience of Airdrie fans) for the morons in North Lanarkshire that are too bigoted for Ibrox... Says a lot

Too bigoted for Ibrox? Surely an oxymoron :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Most Tories are racist? Do one eh.

Hows this sort of post even allowed on here?

I couldn't make such an assertion, but I would say most are amoral, otherwise how can one vote for policies which harm the majority (especially the poorest) and benefit the richest? For me there is no explanation beyond self-interest.

[WhileTheChief..]

I couldn't make such an assertion, but I would say most are amoral, otherwise how can one vote for policies which harm the majority (especially the poorest) and benefit the richest? For me there is no explanation beyond self-interest.

None of which has anything to do with racism.

[Hibernia&Alba]

None of which has anything to do with racism.

No, but it's a matter of turning away from all those who suffer.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m taking issue with the statement that all tories are racist. Nothing else.

It’s a ridiculous and insulting thing to say, no matter how much you may hate them for whatever other reasons.

[Brooster]

If we are serious about the fight against racism, action needs to be taken against Millwall fans. People can't get away with this sort of behaviour.

What sanctions do you suggest?

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m taking issue with the statement that all tories are racist. Nothing else.

It’s a ridiculous and insulting thing to say, no matter how much you may hate them for whatever other reasons.

Of course not all Tory voters are racists; that is certainly true, when they have millions of voters. But they cast their vote for a racist government, in terms of asylum and immigration. That's my beef :agree:

[NAE NOOKIE]

Seen a few TV segments about Millwall over the last few years where folk connected with the club show how hard they have worked and are working to improve the image of the club and it's supporters. But time and again the clubs sizeable hardcore ******** element make them look like fools for even bothering to try.

The poster on here who for some bizarre reason brought the independence debate into proceedings might like to google Millwall's Wiki page .... of all the professional clubs in England they have by far the biggest Scottish connection, their dark blue colours and Lion badge are a direct result of that connection. Maybe the English would like to send them back up here :greengrin

[Phil MaGlass]

Lots of knuckleheads in Scotlandshire running about to protect statues in George Square not long ago. What do we do come this great independence? Deport them?

No need to deport them, aremt they all threatening to leave Scotland for englandshire anyway.

[Berwickhibby]

Players can kneel for anti racism and I for one would certainly support this gesture, however imho the act is becoming repetitive and the message may be lost. I am sure the kneeling time is getting shorter and it's becoming like the coin toss. Give racism the red card style protest could have more of an impact in future.

[Dmas]

This is a suicide awareness campaign. Something that is consistently promoted by Motherwell

I’ve spoke to a well fan this year at the gym and they have a terrible issue within there ‘young team’ with suicides

[Northernhibee]

I’m taking issue with the statement that all tories are racist. Nothing else.

It’s a ridiculous and insulting thing to say, no matter how much you may hate them for whatever other reasons.

They did vote in someone who described Muslim women as “bank robbers” and black people as “picanninies with watermelon smiles” so although it’s difficult to say “most Tories are racist”, it’s not a big leap to say they couldn’t care less about racism and aren’t bothered about expunging it from their party.

[Robinho08]

How long should this take a knee stuff continue for? :dunno:

When there's no racism? 🤔

[hibsbollah]

Seen a few TV segments about Millwall over the last few years where folk connected with the club show how hard they have worked and are working to improve the image of the club and it's supporters. But time and again the clubs sizeable hardcore ******** element make them look like fools for even bothering to try.

The poster on here who for some bizarre reason brought the independence debate into proceedings might like to google Millwall's Wiki page .... of all the professional clubs in England they have by far the biggest Scottish connection, their dark blue colours and Lion badge are a direct result of that connection. Maybe the English would like to send them back up here :greengrin

This is true, Millwall were founded by ex pat Scot dockyard workers who had been moved en masse from the east coast of Scotland to London’s east end. Their lion represents Scotland as our harp represents Ireland.

[Bostonhibby]

Englandshire at it's finest.

Thank **** Independence is coming.I despise that element of Millwall with a passion despite having a very good friend who supports them, like me he was born on his teams doorstep and wouldn't stand for this.

Its easy to pick out parts of England where attitudes like this prevail, but it's deluded to somehow paint Scotland as a tolerant Utopia free of bigoted hatred.

I go to a lot of football around the country and the only place where I've encountered open hatred and actually felt intimidated because of what they think I am is in Scotland, quite a few times including my wife being spat on in Glasgow and us being called ******* Catholic ****.

Born protestant, both atheists.

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[Bostonhibby]

This is true, Millwall were founded by ex pat Scot dockyard workers who had been moved en masse from the east coast of Scotland to the London’s east end. Their lion represents Scotland as our harp represents Ireland.You don't have to dig too deep into Millwall's history to find their Scottish roots. The friend I mention above is from Scottish and Irish parents.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[hibbie02]

I know a couple of Millwall fans who had been hard core skinheads back in the day. They both claim to be reformed and no longer believe in the sort of cr@p they used to, but I am not so sure. Some things still slip out after a few pints. Anyhoo, my point is that I asked one of them who was there and he claims the booing started because during the kneel, one for the black Derby players chose to stand with a fist raised. He said it made it look like the players were kneeling to him standing there and that triggered the knuckledraggers. Could be b@llocks, but thought I would add in some perspective. FWIW, I have hated Millwall since 1990 and that "friendly".

[Hermit Crab]

When there's no racism? [emoji848]

You know that will never happen. From both sides.

[Peevemor]

You know that will never happen. From both sides.Exactly.

[Keith_M]

I think there's a valid discussion as to when 'Taking The Knee' should finish, but that doesn't excuse people booing players that are doing it.

[bigwheel]

Exactly.

Who are both sides in this ? The racists and the anti- racists ??

[Peevemor]

Who are both sides in this ? The racists and the anti- racists ??Racists from all races.

[Onion]

Players should have walked off, game abandoned, 3-0 win the away team.

[Bishop Hibee]

I think there's a valid discussion as to when 'Taking The Knee' should finish, but that doesn't excuse people booing players that are doing it.

Booing is a disgrace. I agree with you that there needs to be a debate on when it ends. Personally, I’d say the end of 2020 or end of the season at the latest. Keep promoting Show Racism the Red Card and banning orders for any fan giving racist abuse inside the ground.

[heretoday]

Booing is a disgrace. I agree with you that there needs to be a debate on when it ends. Personally, I’d say the end of 2020 or end of the season at the latest. Keep promoting Show Racism the Red Card and banning orders for any fan giving racist abuse inside the ground.

That sounds fair enough.

[EI255]

...for taking the knee before the game.



https://twitter.com/i/status/1335244473069088774


:rolleyes:What a horrible club. Would love to slap a few of their fat flat capped tosser 'fans'. A truly meaningless club.

[Kato]

Racists from all races.So that's just one side then, not two.

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[MWHIBBIES]

Baffling the amount hibs supporters who seem to sympathise with these ****bags.

wtf are you talking about?

Their a decent footballing side. No one thinks they are nice people.

[allmodcons]

The Rangers also celebrate terrorism, in terms of Loyalist groups: Here Lies A Soldier, Father's Advice, We Are Not Sectarian etc.

I'm not defending the idiots and bigots in the Celtc support, but Rangers are unmatched in terms of bigotry and poison: everything from a century of discriminatory signing policy, to the orange kits of today. "A permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace", as they were once infamously described.

:agree:

[allmodcons]

He grew up on a council estate - social housing - which is a wonderful policy of social justice. However, he left for Switzerland when the money came in from racing. Most Formula 1 drivers are residents of Switzerland and Monaco, and it's no coincidence. If someone truly believes in fighting injustice, beyond the symbolism of t-shirts etc, how about they don't become tax exiles but instead pay to help those growing up in the same circumstances as themselves? Don't disappear in order to have even more more money they don't need. I think that's fair.

:agree: You were on good form yesterday.

[allmodcons]

Players should have walked off, game abandoned, 3-0 win the away team.

This is what should have happened. A 'leader' of some description in the Millwall side would have helped.

Action should be taken against these right wing *****. Millwall, as a club, have had years to confront this issue head on but like Sevco have done little or nothing to stop large numbers of racists and bigots from attending their ground.

[CMurdoch]

I know a couple of Millwall fans who had been hard core skinheads back in the day. They both claim to be reformed and no longer believe in the sort of cr@p they used to, but I am not so sure. Some things still slip out after a few pints. Anyhoo, my point is that I asked one of them who was there and he claims the booing started because during the kneel, one for the black Derby players chose to stand with a fist raised. He said it made it look like the players were kneeling to him standing there and that triggered the knuckledraggers. Could be b@llocks, but thought I would add in some perspective. FWIW, I have hated Millwall since 1990 and that "friendly".

The Derby player was Colin Kazim Richards but I don't know if his gesture came before the booing or was in response to it

[hibbie02]

The Derby player was Colin Kazim Richards but I don't know if his gesture came before the booing or was in response to it

Either did I, but have since read he does it every game.

[Glory Lurker]

What a horrible club. Would love to slap a few of their fat flat capped tosser 'fans'. A truly meaningless club.

In a year when we have accepted, rightly, that our personal freedom should be curtailed it really wouldn't be a big thing to just sine die them. It's only football.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/dec/06/toxicity-on-show-at-millwall-goes-beyond-the-club-and-football

[Scott Allan Key]

If we are serious about the fight against racism, action needs to be taken against Millwall fans. People can't get away with this sort of behaviour.'We're gonna smash their brains in, Cause they ain't got nothing in em' Linton Kwesi Johnson

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[Scott Allan Key]

They did vote in someone who described Muslim women as “bank robbers” and black people as “picanninies with watermelon smiles” so although it’s difficult to say “most Tories are racist”, it’s not a big leap to say they couldn’t care less about racism and aren’t bothered about expunging it from their party.I can agree with you on this and didn't mean to patronise you on another thread. Although, my uncle is a powerful Tory businessman and certainly isn't racist although he is a climate change denier!

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[Jones28]

Its great to hear a Milwall fan come on the radio this morning and confirm that some of them seem to be genuine racists *****, condemning the club for it's actions, asking why white lives don't matter, claiming white people have been slaves to black people in the past. Also playing the whatabouterry card, Grimsby Town, Colchester and West Ham all booed too apparently.

[lucky]

If Hibs fans did this then this place would rightly condemn it. Taking a knee is about standing up for equality, it should end when equality is achieved. Millwall fans have let their club done yet again and should be ashamed. Not wonder they aren’t very well supported in a huge football made city.

[Since90+2]

I think the issue with continuing until equality has been achieved is who decides when that is? It's a very difficult thing to measure.

And the precedent has now been set so once the black community feels equality has been reached does another section of society that feels marginalised also have football players making symbols before every match?

I'm not against taking the knee but I do have concerns about how it will resolve itself going forward.

On Millwall, they do seem to have a very high ****bag element so no surprise with them. I imagine we might see a similar, though maybe not quite as vocal, a reaction when fans of a certain club in Scotland are back in grounds.

[Lendo]

Does the booing at the weekend not actually highlight precisely why taking a knee shouldn't end? Keep the spotlight on the issue and also continue to show that racism at football matches is sadly very much alive and well.

[hibsbollah]

There seems to be a few ‘they shouldn’t have booed BUT’ articles cropping up online. Very much echoing the Tory ministers recent comments about BLM being ‘politicized’ as a justification for him not condemning the Millwall fans. In simple terms, if you’re asking when taking the knee is going to stop; I think the simple response to that is ‘when the players want it to’, followed by ‘why does it bother you, as a punter, one way or another?’

[WhileTheChief..]

“When the players want it to” is a tricky one though.

I’d be very surprised if all the players in Scotland are doing this because they want to.

They are doing it because they’ve been told to do it by the league, who were told to do it by SRTRC.

[Keith_M]

I have to be honest that I'm confused as to why one of the players decided to do a Black Power salute when every other player was taking the knee.

I'm not in any way excusing the people booing (as I've made clear my views on that already) but I honestly don't get why he felt the need to do something different and feel that it detracted somewhat from the unity normally seen by all players taking the knee.




TBH, though, it's not a major issue in the grand scheme of things.

[Rumble de Thump]

The people who booed have managed to alienate Millwall right back Mahlon Romeo. Interesting that manager Gary Rowatt doesn't really seem to understand why players are taking the knee: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11735/12152721/millwalls-mahlon-romeo-slams-fans-over-booing-as-players-took-knee-in-support-of-fight-against-racial-injustice

[Keith_M]

The people who booed have managed to alienate Millwall right back Mahlon Romeo. Interesting that manager Gary Rowatt doesn't really seem to understand why players are taking the knee: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11735/12152721/millwalls-mahlon-romeo-slams-fans-over-booing-as-players-took-knee-in-support-of-fight-against-racial-injustice


That's quite a moving statement.


I'd hazard a guess that the majority of Milwall Fans are embarrassed and angry about the idiots that did this.

[judas]

I think freedom of expression is paramount.

I think players should be allowed to take the knee in advance of a game if they so wish.

Similarly, if a group of fans don't like it then I think they should be free react with reasonable displeasure.

I would speculate that a significant portion of the poor white UK population do not feel particularly privileged. I think that many have looked on in bemusement as the media have made them feel guilty of prejudice, alienating them somewhat in the process.

It is also fair to say that many people are scared to speak or contribute on the subject of minority groups for fear of saying the wrong thing (by the ever changing rule of what that is).

[147lothian]

An intersting take on the on-going taking the knee saga

On you tube, talkRADIO: Brendan O'Neil: Millwall fans booing 'tells us a really important story about this country'

[Sir David Gray]

I think freedom of expression is paramount.

I think players should be allowed to take the knee in advance of a game if they so wish.

Similarly, if a group of fans don't like it then I think they should be free react with reasonable displeasure.

I would speculate that a significant portion of the poor white UK population do not feel particularly privileged. I think that many have looked on in bemusement as the media have made them feel guilty of prejudice, alienating them somewhat in the process.

It is also fair to say that many people are scared to speak or contribute on the subject of minority groups for fear of saying the wrong thing (by the ever changing rule of what that is).

I don't agree with the booing and would question the real motives of those who did so - it is almost certainly borne out of racism.

Personally though I think English football should do what we have done up here by supporting the SRTRC campaign by saying their campaign's in support of Kick It Out, which I believe is their equivalent.

I'm personally uncomfortable with supporting the Black Lives Matter movement as I believe they have got wider aims and objectives and have taken a stance in other political issues which I disagree with, rather than just sticking solely with the singular aim of combatting racial abuse. I think by attaching the pre-match ritual of taking a knee to support of BLM, it gives people (many of whom would probably still boo anyway even if it was in support of a charity or organisation which had no political allegiances) an excuse to boo, whereas if it was done to support Kick It Out or SRTRC, like it is up here, these people would have no hiding place.

I heard Dion Dublin saying at the weekend that if you disagree with Black Lives Matter then in his opinion you're a racist - I totally disagree with that and I think comments like that are extremely unhelpful.

I'm 100% behind the efforts of SRTRC - there is however, in my mind, a significant difference between saying you should support the message that black lives matter, which no decent person can ever dispute, and saying you support Black Lives Matter.

[jacomo]

I think freedom of expression is paramount.

I think players should be allowed to take the knee in advance of a game if they so wish.

Similarly, if a group of fans don't like it then I think they should be free react with reasonable displeasure.

I would speculate that a significant portion of the poor white UK population do not feel particularly privileged. I think that many have looked on in bemusement as the media have made them feel guilty of prejudice, alienating them somewhat in the process.

It is also fair to say that many people are scared to speak or contribute on the subject of minority groups for fear of saying the wrong thing (by the ever changing rule of what that is).


I could go all Marxist here and say that class consciousness is deliberately suppressed in order to encourage poor people to turn on each other rather than direct their anger at those responsible for their lot.

But, honestly, a lot of it is just pure ignorance.

[The Tubs]

I think freedom of expression is paramount.

I think players should be allowed to take the knee in advance of a game if they so wish.

Similarly, if a group of fans don't like it then I think they should be free react with reasonable displeasure.

I would speculate that a significant portion of the poor white UK population do not feel particularly privileged. I think that many have looked on in bemusement as the media have made them feel guilty of prejudice, alienating them somewhat in the process.

It is also fair to say that many people are scared to speak or contribute on the subject of minority groups for fear of saying the wrong thing (by the ever changing rule of what that is).

Your last sentence sounds like progress. People filtering what they say or waiting until they have an understanding of a topic before issuing an opinion sounds like trying to be informed and thoughtful.

[CockneyRebel]

So that's just one side then, not two.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I think you know perfectly well what the original poster meant - that there are racists within all races, black/white/asian etc. I have worked with folk from all backgrounds both here and abroad and can confirm that racism crosses the spectrum and is also part of the problem. Wherever racism exists it should not be tolerated.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I could go all Marxist here and say that class consciousness is deliberately suppressed in order to encourage poor people to turn on each other rather than direct their anger at those responsible for their lot.

But, honestly, a lot of it is just pure ignorance.

:agree:

Divide and conquer, something which has worked brilliantly for the Conservative Party for decades: it's the immigrants, the single mothers, the welfare scroungers, the European Union etc who are responsible for the collapse of society. Our economic policies have no responsibility, look at them.

[WhileTheChief..]

:agree:

Divide and conquer, something which has worked brilliantly for the Conservative Party for decades: it's the immigrants, the single mothers, the welfare scroungers, the European Union etc who are responsible for the collapse of society. Our economic policies have no responsibility, look at them.

What collapse in society?

People are generally better off now than at any time in our past, no? (Covid aside obviously)

I also don't see much of a difference in economic policies between the Scottish Gov and Westminster. What's the big difference? 1p in income tax, what else??!!

[Kato]

I think you know perfectly well what the original poster meant - that there are racists within all races, black/white/asian etc. I have worked with folk from all backgrounds both here and abroad and can confirm that racism crosses the spectrum and is also part of the problem. Wherever racism exists it should not be tolerated.Racists are racists, no matter which "side" they are perceived to be from.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

What collapse in society?

People are generally better off now than at any time in our past, no? (Covid aside obviously)

I also don't see much of a difference in economic policies between the Scottish Gov and Westminster. What's the big difference? 1p in income tax, what else??!!

The 'collapse of society' is the scare tactic used by parties on the right across the world, though I agree to some extent, but for different reasons. Keep people afraid and suspicious, particularly of those who look or sound different or foreign. Create scapegoats as the easily understandable explanation for complex and longstanding issues. Focus on crime, immigration, people (unnamed) supposedly milking the system. It's the oldest trick in the political playbook, and that's because it works. 'People are generally better off than at any time in our past'. Which people are they and better off in what sense? The UK has hundreds of thousands of people, including around 130,000 children, living in hotels and bed and breakfasts because of a chronic lack of social housing. That's just one issue. Over a decade of austerity has hammered the weakest and the services we all rely on in local government. I'm astonished you think most people are better off than ever.

As for the the SNP, well, I'm not a supporter of them, but I do think they are far better than the Westminster government on issues like free university tuition and free social care. There is more between them than just a penny on income tax, though I do agree that they haven't broken the fundamental link with the discredited neoliberal/trickledown ideology, which can be said of parties of the centre left in many countries. They are still discussing the issues on their terms.

[Peevemor]

Racists are racists, no matter which "side" they are perceived to be from.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

This daft sub-debate stemmed from a comment about the possibility of eradicating all racism. "Taking the knee" is connected to the Black Lives Matter movement, which targets only one group of racists.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This daft sub-debate stemmed from a comment about the possibility of eradicating all racism. "Taking the knee" is connected to the Black Lives Matter movement, which targets only one group of racists.

BLM is a protest against systemic and institutional racism, particularly in the American criminal justice system. America has two million people in prison, the majority young black men locked up for non-violent crimes (Bill Clinton the biggest sinner in this ). The private prisons make 45,000 USD annually from each prisoner; it's a business and a method of social control. It's much bigger than your local bigot talking pish in the pub.

[bigwheel]

This daft sub-debate stemmed from a comment about the possibility of eradicating all racism. "Taking the knee" is connected to the Black Lives Matter movement, which targets only one group of racists.

No it doesn’t

[jacomo]

This daft sub-debate stemmed from a comment about the possibility of eradicating all racism. "Taking the knee" is connected to the Black Lives Matter movement, which targets only one group of racists.


Yes but by highlighting blatant and chronic injustice it offers hope that we can all grow as a society. I’m all for it personally.

[Peevemor]

BLM is a protest against systemic and institutional racism, particularly in the American criminal justice system. America has two million people in prison, the majority young black men locked up for non-violent crimes (Bill Clinton the biggest sinner in this ). The private prisons make 45,000 USD annually from each prisoner; it's a business and a method of social control. It's much bigger than your local bigot talking pish in the pub.


No it doesn’t


Yes but by highlighting blatant and chronic injustice it offers hope that we can all grow as a society. I’m all for it personally.

Before people start shouting and bawling at me, I'm all for any initiative which raised public awareness about and addresses racism.

I personally would stop the systematic "taking the knee" probably at the end of this season, purely because once people get too used to something they stop connecting it to it's original meaning (especially the hard of thinking).

[hibsbollah]

I don't agree with the booing and would question the real motives of those who did so - it is almost certainly borne out of racism.

Personally though I think English football should do what we have done up here by supporting the SRTRC campaign by saying their campaign's in support of Kick It Out, which I believe is their equivalent.

I'm personally uncomfortable with supporting the Black Lives Matter movement as I believe they have got wider aims and objectives and have taken a stance in other political issues which I disagree with, rather than just sticking solely with the singular aim of combatting racial abuse. I think by attaching the pre-match ritual of taking a knee to support of BLM, it gives people (many of whom would probably still boo anyway even if it was in support of a charity or organisation which had no political allegiances) an excuse to boo, whereas if it was done to support Kick It Out or SRTRC, like it is up here, these people would have no hiding place.

I heard Dion Dublin saying at the weekend that if you disagree with Black Lives Matter then in his opinion you're a racist - I totally disagree with that and I think comments like that are extremely unhelpful.

I'm 100% behind the efforts of SRTRC - there is however, in my mind, a significant difference between saying you should support the message that black lives matter, which no decent person can ever dispute, and saying you support Black Lives Matter.


He didn’t say that those who disagree with BLM are racists, he said the Millwall fans booing those kneeling are racists. Let’s not fantasize, of course they are.
It’s pure tripping through moonbeams fantasy world to imagine a load of Millwall fans booing athletes protesting racial injustice are doing so because they ‘agree that every life matters but they disagree with how it’s being done’ trope. They just dont like the message.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He didn’t say that those who disagree with BLM are racists, he said the Millwall fans booing those kneeling are racists. Let’s not fantasize, of course they are.
It’s pure tripping through moonbeams fantasy world to imagine a load of Millwall fans booing athletes protesting racial injustice are doing so because they ‘agree that every life matters but they disagree with how it’s being done’ trope. They just dont like the message.

Of course it's the message, and you know exactly where the booing would occur if fans were in stadia just now: Millwall, Chelsea, Leeds, Rangers and a few others. The usual depraved degenerates.

[Sir David Gray]

He didn’t say that those who disagree with BLM are racists, he said the Millwall fans booing those kneeling are racists. Let’s not fantasize, of course they are.
It’s pure tripping through moonbeams fantasy world to imagine a load of Millwall fans booing athletes protesting racial injustice are doing so because they ‘agree that every life matters but they disagree with how it’s being done’ trope. They just dont like the message.

Comments below;

"Former Coventry and Aston Villa striker Dion Dublin, who had a loan spell at Millwall in 2002, added: "They don't agree with taking the knee, which means they are racist. They don't agree with Black Lives Matter; that says they are racist to me."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55111474

[Keith_M]

He didn’t say that those who disagree with BLM are racists, he said the Millwall fans booing those kneeling are racists. Let’s not fantasize, of course they are.
It’s pure tripping through moonbeams fantasy world to imagine a load of Millwall fans booing athletes protesting racial injustice are doing so because they ‘agree that every life matters but they disagree with how it’s being done’ trope. They just dont like the message.


Yeah, I'm also struggling to see what message it would send out to jeer people who are protesting racial injustice, other than the message that you are actually in favour of said injustice.

There are indeed a lot of other injustices in the world, such as the economic struggles of working class people (regardless of colour), but surely the answer is to challenge both issues, not to complain when people are challenging one really large and persistent problem.

[matty_f]

He didn’t say that those who disagree with BLM are racists, he said the Millwall fans booing those kneeling are racists. Let’s not fantasize, of course they are.
It’s pure tripping through moonbeams fantasy world to imagine a load of Millwall fans booing athletes protesting racial injustice are doing so because they ‘agree that every life matters but they disagree with how it’s being done’ trope. They just dont like the message.

:agree:

It's hard to come to a different conclusion than people booing an anti-racist gesture are racists.

[matty_f]

Yeah, I'm also struggling to see what message it would send out to jeer people who are protesting racial injustice, other than the message that you are actually in favour of said injustice.

There are indeed a lot of other injustices in the world, such as the economic struggles of working class people (regardless of colour), but surely the answer is to challenge both issues, not to complain when people are challenging one really large and persistent problem.

:agree:

[matty_f]

Maybe the Admins want to move this to the Holy Ground...

Maybe we don't! :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Maybe we don't! :greengrin


It's entirely your choice, Matty

:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Maybe we don't! :greengrin

Mibees aye, mibees naw :greengrin

[Brooster]

“When the players want it to” is a tricky one though.

I’d be very surprised if all the players in Scotland are doing this because they want to.

They are doing it because they’ve been told to do it by the league, who were told to do it by SRTRC.

I wouldn't mind betting that most players can't be bothered doing it now. Yes black lives matter but this particular protest seems to have ran its race.

[hibsbollah]

Comments below;

"Former Coventry and Aston Villa striker Dion Dublin, who had a loan spell at Millwall in 2002, added: "They don't agree with taking the knee, which means they are racist. They don't agree with Black Lives Matter; that says they are racist to me."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55111474

I heard the interview live. The ‘they’ he is referring to are the boo-ers, hence it is the booers that he is referring to as racist. Those booers also don’t like BLM, self evidently, that doesn’t mean Dublin is saying all those who disagree with BLM are racist.

This reminds me of the Stormzy interview recently; Q-‘Stormzy, do you believe there is racism in the UK?’ A-‘Yeah, 100%’ ITV Report- Stormzy Says UK is 100% Racist.

[CapitalGreen]

Maybe the Admins want to move this to the Holy Ground...

I never understand the desire for stuff to get moved off the main board, a lot less posters frequent the Holy Ground board so ultimately any move would reduce the participants in the debate and suppress the number of varied opinions on the subject. This topic is very much football related so no reason why it should be moved.

[WhileTheChief..]

I wouldn't mind betting that most players can't be bothered doing it now. Yes black lives matter but this particular protest seems to have ran its race.

This is the problem I have with BLM and taking the knee.

I wonder who else in Scottish society is regularly doing it now? Does anyone on here do it before they start work or at any other time? Have any of you seen anyone else doing it the last few months, anywhere??

I’m all for freedom of choice and expression, but it feels like footballers don’t have any choice but to go along with it.

I know it’s for a well meaning cause, but I can’t go along with any movement that says ‘you must do this’. It’s the total opposite of what liberal values are supposed to be about.

[The dalmeny]

This is the problem I have with BLM and taking the knee.

I wonder who else in Scottish society is regularly doing it now? Does anyone on here do it before they start work or at any other time? Have any of you seen anyone else doing it the last few months, anywhere??

I’m all for freedom of choice and expression, but it feels like footballers don’t have any choice but to go along with it.

I know it’s for a well meaning cause, but I can’t go along with any movement that says ‘you must do this’. It’s the total opposite of what liberal values are supposed to be about.

It’s more the, you must do this or you are a ........

[bigwheel]

This is the problem I have with BLM and taking the knee.

I wonder who else in Scottish society is regularly doing it now? Does anyone on here do it before they start work or at any other time? Have any of you seen anyone else doing it the last few months, anywhere??

I’m all for freedom of choice and expression, but it feels like footballers don’t have any choice but to go along with it.

I know it’s for a well meaning cause, but I can’t go along with any movement that says ‘you must do this’. It’s the total opposite of what liberal values are supposed to be about.

But it’s not the BLM movement, it’s the spfl and show racism the red card initiative that are requesting for it to be done in support of anti racism causes. Why get frustrated with the BLM movement, when they have nothing to do with the football initiative here?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

This is the problem I have with BLM and taking the knee.

I wonder who else in Scottish society is regularly doing it now? Does anyone on here do it before they start work or at any other time? Have any of you seen anyone else doing it the last few months, anywhere??

I’m all for freedom of choice and expression, but it feels like footballers don’t have any choice but to go along with it.

I know it’s for a well meaning cause, but I can’t go along with any movement that says ‘you must do this’. It’s the total opposite of what liberal values are supposed to be about.

I'd doubt that many on here have the audience that footballers have, which is after all why it's being done by them.

[WhileTheChief..]

Ok, see where I said BLM, replace that with SRTRC, point remains the same!

[Sir David Gray]

I heard the interview live. The ‘they’ he is referring to are the boo-ers, hence it is the booers that he is referring to as racist. Those booers also don’t like BLM, self evidently, that doesn’t mean Dublin is saying all those who disagree with BLM are racist.

This reminds me of the Stormzy interview recently; Q-‘Stormzy, do you believe there is racism in the UK?’ A-‘Yeah, 100%’ ITV Report- Stormzy Says UK is 100% Racist.

Fair enough perhaps context is key here. It seems fairly clear from what is written down that he's equating not agreeing with Black Lives Matter with being racist.

I'd be happy to listen to the interview though as I accept things which are written can be misinterpreted and lost in translation. Perhaps there's a link to the interview somewhere?

[bigwheel]

This will be reviewed at some point soon. The act of taking the knee will stop before each match. Until then, due to the magnitude of the inequality issue, anyone who is bothered/ frustrated by this short symbolic act...perhaps get some perspective on it and frankly suck it up.

[Perd Hapley]

Racists from all races.

That's an insane false equivalence in a society which discriminates against non-white ethnicities. Systemic racism doesn't 'go both ways'

[Keith_M]

I never understand the desire for stuff to get moved off the main board, a lot less posters frequent the Holy Ground board so ultimately any move would reduce the participants in the debate and suppress the number of varied opinions on the subject. This topic is very much football related so no reason why it should be moved.


As the OP, I was really just meaning that I wouldn't mind if the Admins thought it should be moved.

I've now deleted the comment.

[jacomo]

An intersting take on the on-going taking the knee saga

On you tube, talkRADIO: Brendan O'Neil: Millwall fans booing 'tells us a really important story about this country'


Brendan O’Neil is a professional controversialist. Part of a weird bunch who were once an odd communist sect but now have more in common with Nigel Farage.

Best ignored.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Brendan O’Neil is a professional controversialist. Part of a weird bunch who were once an odd communist sect but now have more in common with Nigel Farage.

Best ignored.

Peter Hitchens is another of those.

[Peevemor]

That's an insane false equivalence in a society which discriminates against non-white ethnicities. Systemic racism doesn't 'go both ways'Where did I say it did? No false equivalence from me, insane or otherwise.

[WhileTheChief..]

Brendan O’Neil is a professional controversialist. Part of a weird bunch who were once an odd communist sect but now have more in common with Nigel Farage.

Best ignored.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.

Does the writer of that piece acknowledge that there are a) working class fans who support BLM (Spurs fans applauding it yesterday) and b)presumably also middle class people who hate BLM and would also boo give half the chance? The answer, no, it’s just stereotyping based on class prejudice, which is what he’s accusing Marina Hyde and Ash Sarwar of, strangely :dunno:

[skyhibs]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.



That is a good read and i would agree with most of it if not all

[basehibby]

While I would not think of booing the taking the knee thing I must confess to having been bemused and slightly bewildered as to why it's being persisted with for so long - with apparently no end in sight.

There are plenty of other causes which could be protested about - I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more noise made about the British State's continuing persecution of the journalist Julian Assange for example. I see that as an extremely important issue with ramifications affecting everyone but I accept that football matches needn't be the focal point for protesting every political issue under the sun.

The taking the knee gesture is - if I'm not mistaken - focused primarily on a state of affairs in another country - the USA - over which British football has little to no influence. And while the outpouring of sympathy and solidarity after the death of George Floyd was heartening, the indefinite continuance of the taking the knee gesture in the absence of any viable objective amounts to empty virtue signaling in my opinion.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.


What an appalling article. Stereotyping, narrow minded pish. The anti working class left wing...really?

The Guardianistas, as if the Guardian is a bastion of anti establishment journalism.

BLM is about a guy who was killed by the cops...that sums it up then.

I got about three paragraphs into this cliched ridden, divisive gash. Had to stop.

Another point of view and obviously quite popular amongst some of the followers of Talk Radio and it’s media outlets. That’s what I find saddest of all, that there are people out there that lap this stuff up.

[hibsbollah]

While I would not think of booing the taking the knee thing I must confess to having been bemused and slightly bewildered as to why it's being persisted with for so long - with apparently no end in sight.

There are plenty of other causes which could be protested about - I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more noise made about the British State's continuing persecution of the journalist Julian Assange for example. I see that as an extremely important issue with ramifications affecting everyone but I accept that football matches needn't be the focal point for protesting every political issue under the sun.

The taking the knee gesture is - if I'm not mistaken - focused primarily on a state of affairs in another country - the USA - over which British football has little to no influence. And while the outpouring of sympathy and solidarity after the death of George Floyd was heartening, the indefinite continuance of the taking the knee gesture in the absence of any viable objective amounts to empty virtue signaling in my opinion.

Wow, I consider Assange to be a creepy dilettante and egoist who used his celebrity to justify doing a runner from a rape charge and then coordinated an online campaign to vilify the accusers, I think it’d be a weird world if pros started taking the knee for him... but that’s opinions for you :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

What an appalling article. Stereotyping, narrow minded pish. The anti working class left wing...really?

The Guardianistas, as if the Guardian is a bastion of anti establishment journalism.

BLM is about a guy who was killed by the cops...that sums it up then.

I got about three paragraphs into this cliched ridden, divisive gash. Had to stop.

Another point of view and obviously quite popular amongst some of the followers of Talk Radio and it’s media outlets. That’s what I find saddest of all, that there are people out there that lap this stuff up.

That's another tactic used by the right to divide and conquer: stir up class hatred to divide the left. You will hear things like 'champagne socialists' and 'Hampstead socialists' in reference to the intellectual left, who according to their detractors, despise working class people. Of course you will never see them play this game in relation to the Conservative Party - being working class and Conservative is perfectly okay, but being middle class and left wing is horrifying to them. They never use derisive terms for working class Tories; there is no 'Buckfast Tory' analogous to the 'champagne socialist'. Ironically, these are the same people who accuse the left of class war when things such as progressive income tax is mentioned. The inverted snobbery they peddle is a convenient distraction from discussing policies - make it about personalities instead, divide the Labour/left vote into class resentments and keep the Tories in government. In truth the Labour Party has always been a coalition of different groups: blue collar trade unionists, public sector workers, intellectuals. Tony Benn and Michael Foot weren't working class, but so what? It's the ideas that matter, not where someone is born.

[basehibby]

Wow, I consider Assange to be a creepy dilettante and egoist who used his celebrity to justify doing a runner from a rape charge and then coordinated an online campaign to vilify the accusers, I think it’d be a weird world if pros started taking the knee for him... but that’s opinions for you :greengrin


Shows you how stunningly misinformed people can be about current affairs even if they are capable of intelligent analysis on all things Hibs :greengrin

[ancient hibee]

That's another tactic used by the right to divide and conquer: stir up class hatred to divide the left. You will hear things like 'champagne socialists' and 'Hampstead socialists' in reference to the intellectual left, who according to their detractors, despise working class people. Of course you will never see them play this game in relation to the Conservative Party - being working class and Conservative is perfectly okay, but being middle class and left wing is horrifying to them. They never use derisive terms for working class Tories; there is no 'Buckfast Tory' analogous to the 'champagne socialist'. Ironically, these are the same people who accuse the left of class war when things such as progressive income tax is mentioned. The inverted snobbery they peddle is a convenient distraction from discussing policies - make it about personalities instead, divide the Labour/left vote into class resentments and keep the Tories in government. In truth the Labour Party has always been a coalition of different groups: blue collar trade unionists, public sector workers, intellectuals. Tony Benn and Michael Foot weren't working class, but so what? It's the ideas that matter, not where someone is born.

Most political movements need little help from the "other side" to cause a stushie. Was it Herbert Morrison who when told Nye Bevan was his own worst enemy said"Not as long as I'm alive he aint".

[Hibernia&Alba]

Most political movements need little help from the "other side" to cause a stushie. Was it Herbert Morrison who when told Nye Bevan was his own worst enemy said"Not as long as I'm alive he aint".

That's true, particularly in the Labour Party between the left and the right. The tension has always been there.

[hibsbollah]

Shows you how stunningly misinformed people can be about current affairs even if they are capable of intelligent analysis on all things Hibs :greengrin


Some would say I’m capable of achieving neither :greengrin

[147lothian]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.

Thanks for putting up this link WhileThe Chief, I must confess I had only seen the talk radio podcast until you put the link up.

I have to say I agree with most of it. I can see more booing of the knee taking as fans get back into stadiums to watch games down south, and more condemnation of this so its always good to hear alternative points of view before making your mind up whether you think players taking the knee its an important stand against racism, and the fans that boo this are all **** bags or that its irrelevant gesture politics, this article is a good read.

[Hermit Crab]

This is a badge that seems to be associated to Millwall. I’m assuming of course this is unofficial merchandise but is this racist? Would it also be racist if it was a white face instead of black? Genuine question.

***Disclaimer***

Badge is not mine and was found on the internet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201207/f631fe4061e72af5f4a35d1c7b5e270d.jpg

[tamig]

This is a badge that seems to be associated to Millwall. I’m assuming of course this is unofficial merchandise but is this racist? Would it also be racist if it was a white face instead of black? Genuine question.

***Disclaimer***

Badge is not mine and was found on the internet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201207/f631fe4061e72af5f4a35d1c7b5e270d.jpg

Just google it and you’ll get your answer. Your pic may get taken down.

[Hibernia&Alba]

This is a badge that seems to be associated to Millwall. I’m assuming of course this is unofficial merchandise but is this racist? Would it also be racist if it was a white face instead of black? Genuine question.

***Disclaimer***

Badge is not mine and was found on the internet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201207/f631fe4061e72af5f4a35d1c7b5e270d.jpg

A gollywog on a Millwall badge? I think we can take an educated guess it isn't meant to be a compliment. I remember in the late 80s shops still sold toy gollywogs. Perhaps they still did even later; amazing really.

[Hermit Crab]

A gollywog on a Millwall badge? I think we can take an educated guess it isn't meant to be a compliment. I remember in the late 80s shops still sold toy gollywogs. Perhaps they still did even later; amazing really.


I'm a bit young to remember those things. Had no idea thats what it is.

[Since452]

**** Millwall. Only good thing about them is that they're 400 odd miles away.

[EI255]

Its great to hear a Milwall fan come on the radio this morning and confirm that some of them seem to be genuine racists *****, condemning the club for it's actions, asking why white lives don't matter, claiming white people have been slaves to black people in the past. Also playing the whatabouterry card, Grimsby Town, Colchester and West Ham all booed too apparently.No surprise. Its almost as if it was a who can boo first contest between the England's most narrow minded fans. All of those clubs fit that bill.

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[EI255]

**** Millwall. Only good thing about them is that they're 400 odd miles away.I've always wanted them to slide down the leagues and out of existence. They are literally good for nothing.

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[Brightside]

This thread is pretty special.

[jacomo]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.


Makes me puke.

Standard spiked fare... a misappropriation of the term ‘working class’ and labelling anyone who disagrees as ‘facist’. These **** bags are trying to provoke a culture war by declaring anyone who reads the Guardian or ascribes to vaguely centre left liberal values as the enemy.

It’s an obviously ridiculous notion but sadly history is full of examples of it happening. And it always leads to a bad place.

This guy doesn’t know what or who the working class is. Obviously none of the players on the pitch - some of them definitely working class - count in Brendan O’Neil’s worldview. By extension, no one who is black qualifies either. Nope, he mythologising some salt-of-the-earth Geezer, who has never heard of ciabatta but definitely loves his mum.

I don’t know if he actually believes this stuff or he just says it to make money. Either way, it comes from a deeply bitter, resentful place. Don’t get sucked in.

[WhileTheChief..]

Never heard of him or the website, doubt I’ll be reading more but I do like to try and see different views.

[jacomo]

Never heard of him or the website, doubt I’ll be reading more but I do like to try and see different views.


Sure. Definitely good to get different perspectives. But he’s a nasty piece of work.

He wants to make you think that football has been taken over by metropolitan liberals, and that they are the hated elite. But of course that’s rubbish. Footballs been taken over by the real elite - the grifters with all the money.

[Kato]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/06/the-millwall-revolt/

You might not agree with all of it but worth reading anyways, always good to see another point of view.

The other point of view seems to be that some racist Millwall fans are representative of the working class and that middle class people are upset by that.

Would a load of pish.

He's criticising identity politics by smearing broad brush attributes to every group which he describes.

Not falling for it.

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[Greenfly]

I've always wanted them to slide down the leagues and out of existence. They are literally good for nothing.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
It's ironic that a fair number of folk on here have taken the narrow-minded stereo-typing prejudice that underlines this whole issue and used it to batter one club. Millwall have the misfortune of having a number of racist morons in their support. They also have a huge number of non-racists and active anti-racists supporting them. As a club I don't think there's another in England (probably the UK) who have done more to combat racism in their own support as well as football in general.

There are historical reasons why Millwall have had more of this burden to shoulder than many, not least the concerted effort by NF racists to target the Deptford area in general and the football club in particular back in the 70s and 80s and to feed off the political disillusionment by offering cheap and easy scapegoats to further their Nazi agenda. They poured huge resources into targeting young white males and by any measure they achieved a lot of success. The BNP did likewise a decade later. This is not the fault of the majority of fans or of Millwall FC who have made strenuous efforts to counter this and to work against racism particularly through schools and youth clubs and who continue to do so, despite organised provocation from the racists.

The club are not the problem and are not responsible for becoming the target of Nazis and racists. Please do fight against the iniquity of racism but please don't fall into the trap of putting the blame on the club and fans who are doing likewise and have the track record to prove it.

[Greenfly]

The other point of view seems to be that some racist Millwall fans are representative of the working class and that middle class people are upset by that.

Would a load of pish.

He's criticising identity politics by smearing broad brush attributes to every group of he describes.

Not falling for it.

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Agreed 100%

[CMurdoch]

It's ironic that a fair number of folk on here have taken the narrow-minded stereo-typing prejudice that underlines this whole issue and used it to batter one club. Millwall have the misfortune of having a number of racist morons in their support. They also have a huge number of non-racists and active anti-racists supporting them. As a club I don't think there's another in England (probably the UK) who have done more to combat racism in their own support as well as football in general.

There are historical reasons why Millwall have had more of this burden to shoulder than many, not least the concerted effort by NF racists to target the Deptford area in general and the football club in particular back in the 70s and 80s and to feed off the political disillusionment by offering cheap and easy scapegoats to further their Nazi agenda. They poured huge resources into targeting young white males and by any measure they achieved a lot of success. The BNP did likewise a decade later. This is not the fault of the majority of fans or of Millwall FC who have made strenuous efforts to counter this and to work against racism particularly through schools and youth clubs and who continue to do so, despite organised provocation from the racists.

The club are not the problem and are not responsible for becoming the target of Nazis and racists. Please do fight against the iniquity of racism but please don't fall into the trap of putting the blame on the club and fans who are doing likewise and have the track record to prove it.

Great post. Millwall FC. can't shake these leeching ****ers.
Vulnerable, disillusioned and ignorant youngsters have sadly always been targeted and recruited by extreme groups like the NF and BNP.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Perhaps the team captains should have had a chat and matched their teams off the pitch?

[blackpoolhibs]

Caught the end of a conversation earlier when I got in the car, I'm sure they said Millwall and QPR won't be taking the knee when they play each other.

[Bishop Hibee]

Good article here from Barney Ronay who’s been going to watch them for 35 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/taking-a-knee-is-a-sign-to-minorities-they-are-welcome-at-football-grounds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Sir David Gray]

Caught the end of a conversation earlier when I got in the car, I'm sure they said Millwall and QPR won't be taking the knee when they play each other.

QPR players will but the Millwall players will link arms in solidarity instead.

[blackpoolhibs]

QPR players will but the Millwall players will link arms in solidarity instead.

Ah right, only caught the end of the clip. I wonder why the Millwall players are doing it differently, was that not the excuse some of the morons made when they booed on Saturday?

[hibsbollah]

Good article here from Barney Ronay who’s been going to watch them for 35 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/taking-a-knee-is-a-sign-to-minorities-they-are-welcome-at-football-grounds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Yes, well written from Ronay and agree with every word.

[1 8 7 5]

It's ironic that a fair number of folk on here have taken the narrow-minded stereo-typing prejudice that underlines this whole issue and used it to batter one club. Millwall have the misfortune of having a number of racist morons in their support. They also have a huge number of non-racists and active anti-racists supporting them. As a club I don't think there's another in England (probably the UK) who have done more to combat racism in their own support as well as football in general.

There are historical reasons why Millwall have had more of this burden to shoulder than many, not least the concerted effort by NF racists to target the Deptford area in general and the football club in particular back in the 70s and 80s and to feed off the political disillusionment by offering cheap and easy scapegoats to further their Nazi agenda. They poured huge resources into targeting young white males and by any measure they achieved a lot of success. The BNP did likewise a decade later. This is not the fault of the majority of fans or of Millwall FC who have made strenuous efforts to counter this and to work against racism particularly through schools and youth clubs and who continue to do so, despite organised provocation from the racists.

The club are not the problem and are not responsible for becoming the target of Nazis and racists. Please do fight against the iniquity of racism but please don't fall into the trap of putting the blame on the club and fans who are doing likewise and have the track record to prove it.

top post mate.

[Victor]

While I would not think of booing the taking the knee thing I must confess to having been bemused and slightly bewildered as to why it's being persisted with for so long - with apparently no end in sight.

There are plenty of other causes which could be protested about - I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more noise made about the British State's continuing persecution of the journalist Julian Assange for example. I see that as an extremely important issue with ramifications affecting everyone but I accept that football matches needn't be the focal point for protesting every political issue under the sun.

The taking the knee gesture is - if I'm not mistaken - focused primarily on a state of affairs in another country - the USA - over which British football has little to no influence. And while the outpouring of sympathy and solidarity after the death of George Floyd was heartening, the indefinite continuance of the taking the knee gesture in the absence of any viable objective amounts to empty virtue signaling in my opinion.

Wow! So what you are saying is that there is not a problem with racism in the UK and we should be protesting the ‘persecution’ of a self-important egoist?


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[jacomo]

Wow! So what you are saying is that there is not a problem with racism in the UK and we should be protesting the ‘persecution’ of a self-important egoist?



This is all part of the game. Those who wish to keep the status quo can’t advocate for continued discrimination - they would be happy to but even they realise how bad it would sound. So instead they dismiss and belittle their opponents by accusing them of ‘virtue signalling’.

Just to clear, what they are saying is that the players who take the knee don’t really care about racism, they are only doing it because they think it makes them look like better people.

[JimBHibees]

QPR players will but the Millwall players will link arms in solidarity instead.

Incredible and imo weak decision for Millwall to do that.

[bigwheel]

Incredible and imo weak decision for Millwall to do that.


could be seen as endorsing the booing - very poor decision

[Lendo]

This is a badge that seems to be associated to Millwall. I’m assuming of course this is unofficial merchandise but is this racist? Would it also be racist if it was a white face instead of black? Genuine question.

***Disclaimer***

Badge is not mine and was found on the internet.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201207/f631fe4061e72af5f4a35d1c7b5e270d.jpg

What's happening here??!? Are you genuinely asking whether a Gollywog is racist or not???

[WhileTheChief..]

Just to clear, what they are saying is that the players who take the knee don’t really care about racism, they are only doing it because they think it makes them look like better people.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that.

I’m questioning whether they are doing it because they want to and feel strongly about the issue or because they have been told to do so?

If it’s the former then fine, if it’s the latter then not so much.

[Kato]

While I would not think of booing the taking the knee thing I must confess to having been bemused and slightly bewildered as to why it's being persisted with for so long - with apparently no end in sight.

There are plenty of other causes which could be protested about - I wouldn't mind seeing a lot more noise made about the British State's continuing persecution of the journalist Julian Assange for example. I see that as an extremely important issue with ramifications affecting everyone but I accept that football matches needn't be the focal point for protesting every political issue under the sun.

The taking the knee gesture is - if I'm not mistaken - focused primarily on a state of affairs in another country - the USA - over which British football has little to no influence. And while the outpouring of sympathy and solidarity after the death of George Floyd was heartening, the indefinite continuance of the taking the knee gesture in the absence of any viable objective amounts to empty virtue signaling in my opinion.Football in the UK has a history going back 30-35 years. The current action is just an extension of those activities.

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[jacomo]

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that.

I’m questioning whether they are doing it because they want to and feel strongly about the issue or because they have been told to do so?

If it’s the former then fine, if it’s the latter then not so much.


Who would have told the players to do it?

As far as I am aware, it is an organic and self-organised expression done by the players themselves.

[Keith_M]

Yes, well written from Ronay and agree with every word.


But then you're a middle-class-elite Guardianista.

[eastterrace]

Who would have told the players to do it?

As far as I am aware, it is an organic and self-organised expression done by the players themselves. do you think every single player that takes the knee really wants to do it , I would think not but if they didn’t they would get slaughtered in the press and on social media. That’s not to say they don’t believe in BLM.

[Victor]

do you think every single player that takes the knee really wants to do it , I would think not but if they didn’t they would get slaughtered in the press and on social media. That’s not to say they don’t believe in BLM.

Not sure it is solely about the BLM movement. I believe it is intended as a protest against racial inequality and injustice, an issue, which I don’t think any reasonable person should ‘boo’.


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[hibsbollah]

But then you're a middle-class-elite Guardianista.

It all goes back to upbringing; i didn’t know what mayonnaise was until I was 16, it was salad cream all the way for us. Aioli was a distant dream.

[Keith_M]

It all goes back to upbringing; i didn’t know what mayonnaise was until I was 16, it was salad cream all the way for us. Aioli was a distant dream.


Ah, so you're now a class climbing Guardianista who always shops at eco-friendly-fairtrade-wholefood-artisan-foodstores.


Salad Cream rules, ya bass!

:na na:

[silverhibee]

Ah right, only caught the end of the clip. I wonder why the Millwall players are doing it differently, was that not the excuse some of the morons made when they booed on Saturday?

Maybe Millwall have recruited the green brigade to attack the players.

[EI255]

It's ironic that a fair number of folk on here have taken the narrow-minded stereo-typing prejudice that underlines this whole issue and used it to batter one club. Millwall have the misfortune of having a number of racist morons in their support. They also have a huge number of non-racists and active anti-racists supporting them. As a club I don't think there's another in England (probably the UK) who have done more to combat racism in their own support as well as football in general.

There are historical reasons why Millwall have had more of this burden to shoulder than many, not least the concerted effort by NF racists to target the Deptford area in general and the football club in particular back in the 70s and 80s and to feed off the political disillusionment by offering cheap and easy scapegoats to further their Nazi agenda. They poured huge resources into targeting young white males and by any measure they achieved a lot of success. The BNP did likewise a decade later. This is not the fault of the majority of fans or of Millwall FC who have made strenuous efforts to counter this and to work against racism particularly through schools and youth clubs and who continue to do so, despite organised provocation from the racists.

The club are not the problem and are not responsible for becoming the target of Nazis and racists. Please do fight against the iniquity of racism but please don't fall into the trap of putting the blame on the club and fans who are doing likewise and have the track record to prove it.Sorry. Doesn't change anything. Experience a Millwall game and see.

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[Vault Boy]

In response to those trying to rationalise or in some ways intellectualise the booing.

"Remember last year when Millwall fans took a nuanced stand against moralising by chanting 'I’d rather be a p**i than a scouse'" - James Felton (@JimMFelton on Twitter).

[CMurdoch]

What an appalling article. Stereotyping, narrow minded pish. The anti working class left wing...really?

The Guardianistas, as if the Guardian is a bastion of anti establishment journalism.

BLM is about a guy who was killed by the cops...that sums it up then.

I got about three paragraphs into this cliched ridden, divisive gash. Had to stop.

Another point of view and obviously quite popular amongst some of the followers of Talk Radio and it’s media outlets. That’s what I find saddest of all, that there are people out there that lap this stuff up.

I read the whole thing.
He doesn't know or deliberately corrupts what is to be working class.
It's argument infers that all working class folk are the same, ignorant and unenlightened.
In essence it's guff and not very clever guff at that.

[Newry Hibs]

Good article here from Barney Ronay who’s been going to watch them for 35 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/taking-a-knee-is-a-sign-to-minorities-they-are-welcome-at-football-grounds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I think he is wrong about footballs link with BLM. Sky and BT sport have it everywhere and so do several grounds with their banners. I suspect they haven't delved into what BLM are about.

I also think a significant section of Millwall fans thrive on the whole perception of them / no-one likes us etc.

35 years ago (when Barney started supporting them) I was in the Luton end when Millwall came to town and wrecked the place. A fair few black faces in their ranks then - so perhaps they were just thugs and not especially racist.
About 15 years after the Luton game, I was talking to a guy from the area - he said his granddad watched it and got all excited in a 'go on boys' way. So I think their issues go back a long way.

[Diclonius]

It's remarkable how every co-ordinated attempt at anti-racism or any anti-racist organisation is almost immediately labelled as "Marxist" or whatever by the usual suspects.

[Baader]

It's remarkable how every co-ordinated attempt at anti-racism or any anti-racist organisation is almost immediately labelled as "Marxist" or whatever by the usual suspects.

By people who would never have read a word of Marx in their life let alone understand anything about what he proposes.

That article offering a defence is nonsense. At least have the courage of your convictions to tell us the real reason for the booing. Are Millwall the only club with working class fans? Patronising guff that the likes of Tommy Robinson perpetuate, divisive rubbish that some people sadly fall for.

[Scott Allan Key]

I think freedom of expression is paramount.

I think players should be allowed to take the knee in advance of a game if they so wish.

Similarly, if a group of fans don't like it then I think they should be free react with reasonable displeasure.

I would speculate that a significant portion of the poor white UK population do not feel particularly privileged. I think that many have looked on in bemusement as the media have made them feel guilty of prejudice, alienating them somewhat in the process.

It is also fair to say that many people are scared to speak or contribute on the subject of minority groups for fear of saying the wrong thing (by the ever changing rule of what that is).I think you're right in saying that much of the white UK poor don't feel privileged. It is precisely the wealthy, in particular the elite, who ARE privileged who may actually be more likely to be racist, aa they have most to lose financially from emancipation of the world's majority poor be they black, brown, white, red or yellow. The poor for whatever reason are probably but not exclusively mostly black and brown.

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[Keith_M]

There's some quite weird points of view on this event.

I don't at all get the idea that it's OK to view the booing as a Freedom Of Expression. If what you're trying to express is repulsive, then why should anybody would want to defend that.

[superfurryhibby]

It's remarkable how every co-ordinated attempt at anti-racism or any anti-racist organisation is almost immediately labelled as "Marxist" or whatever by the usual suspects.

I’ve noticed this neo-marxist and cultural marxist nonsense appearing in criticism of the likes of taking* the knee or even the National Trust undertaking a study of the places they safeguard that have direct or indirect connections to slavery.

TBH no one reads Marx, apart from students of politics and sociology. It’s dense, highly technical and very boring.

[Orchard_Hibs]

There's some quite weird points of view on this event.

I don't at all get the idea that it's OK to view the booing as a Freedom Of Expression. If what you're trying to express is repulsive, then why should anybody would want to defend that.

The only thing this type of freedom of expression does is help the good guys identify the bad ones, the number or Millwall fans shopping in Sainsbury’s has recently taken a massive dive which is good.

[Scott Allan Key]

In response to those trying to rationalise or in some ways intellectualise the booing.

"Remember last year when Millwall fans took a nuanced stand against moralising by chanting 'I’d rather be a p**i than a scouse'" - James Felton (@JimMFelton on Twitter).The England fans were chanting 'I'd rather be a P**i than a Jock', when they were playing Turkey in Beckham era. Not sure if they always chant this, or if the opposition they were playing stimulated it.

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[Greenfly]

Sorry. Doesn't change anything. Experience a Millwall game and see.

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I've experienced plenty Millwall games both in the old Den and the new but thanks for the advice.

[hibsbollah]

I’ve noticed this neo-marxist and cultural marxist nonsense appearing in criticism of the likes of taking* the knee or even the National Trust undertaking a study of the places they safeguard that have direct or indirect connections to slavery.

TBH no one reads Marx, apart from students of politics and sociology. It’s dense, highly technical and very boring.

‘Cultural Marxism’ is an anti Semitic conspiracy theory dating from the Nazi Germany era and undergoing a renaissance with the new alt right online. People using this phrase are probably also part of the ‘you will not replace us’ world and should be treated as such.

To your last point, economists also read Marx, in fact that’s his most relevant application, but that’s being pedantic :greengrin

[Newry Hibs]

The England fans were chanting 'I'd rather be a P**i than a Jock', when they were playing Turkey in Beckham era. Not sure if they always chant this, or if the opposition they were playing stimulated it.

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I remember it as 'Turk' rather than 'Jock' in that game

[Scott Allan Key]

There's some quite weird points of view on this event.

I don't at all get the idea that it's OK to view the booing as a Freedom Of Expression. If what you're trying to express is repulsive, then why should anybody would want to defend that.I agree with you, there's the right to offend under the protective banner of freedom of expression which is very much a trope the Americans and French like to excuse themselves.

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[green day]

There's some quite weird points of view on this event.

I don't at all get the idea that it's OK to view the booing as a Freedom Of Expression. If what you're trying to express is repulsive, then why should anybody would want to defend that.

This has been creeping into the mainstream for quite a while.

For example, if there is a TV debate on racism, or anti semitism or whatever, instead of the start point being that these "isms" are repugnant, you can guarantee that - supposedly in the name of even handedness or Freedom of Expression - some far right group will be there to give their "side" of the argument.

Most sane people realise that there is no racist side to the argument, there isnt actually a debate to be had, but the BBC and others seem to think they must have "both sides" represented, as if there is even a point to be debated.

This is how the likes of the BNP and Farages acolytes end up on mainstream TV and some people are now normalised to it.

[Scott Allan Key]

I remember it as 'Turk' rather than 'Jock' in that gameYou may be right, but do they use the word Jock in same song? I thought they did, possibly because I experienced prejudice as well as friendly banter when I lived there.

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[Newry Hibs]

You may be right, but do they use the word Jock in same song? I thought they did, possibly because I experienced prejudice as well as friendly banter when I lived there.

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Against anyone else probably.

[jacomo]

I’ve noticed this neo-marxist and cultural marxist nonsense appearing in criticism of the likes of taking* the knee or even the National Trust undertaking a study of the places they safeguard that have direct or indirect connections to slavery.

TBH no one reads Marx, apart from students of politics and sociology. It’s dense, highly technical and very boring.


It’s not about Marx really of course.

It’s just about labelling people as extremists in order to rubbish their argument.

[Diclonius]

By people who would never have read a word of Marx in their life let alone understand anything about what he proposes.

That article offering a defence is nonsense. At least have the courage of your convictions to tell us the real reason for the booing. Are Millwall the only club with working class fans? Patronising guff that the likes of Tommy Robinson perpetuate, divisive rubbish that some people sadly fall for.

It's a way to mask that they are, at their core, racist or at best, don't care that racism exists and don't want to hear about it.

"How do we say we're not racist while being racist? Ah, yeah, every anti-racism movement is "Marxist" or "political" (???) and that makes it okay to oppose it. Sorted."

[Newry Hibs]

It's a way to mask that they are, at their core, racist or at best, don't care that racism exists and don't want to hear about it.

"How do we say we're not racist while being racist? Ah, yeah, every anti-racism movement is "Marxist" or "political" (???) and that makes it okay to oppose it. Sorted."

Not sure I've ever heard of anyone call 'Kick it Out' as Marxist or political. BLM have a history of marxist views - and an application has been made to form a political party.

The argument that 'Marxist' is being used to portray an extreme surely cuts both ways with anyone disagreeing with them being labelled a racist.

[Magpie]

Millwall players didn’t take the knee.

[EI255]

Millwall players didn’t take the knee.Such a difficult thing to do!

Just listen to their fans on sky. They think they are a cut above. They are sadly mistaken.

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[EI255]

That cheering at the beginning during the knee was clearly piped.

Millwall off the hook again!

*** joke.

[Kato]

Not sure I've ever heard of anyone call 'Kick it Out' as Marxist or political. BLM have a history of marxist views - and an application has been made to form a political party.

The argument that 'Marxist' is being used to portray an extreme surely cuts both ways with anyone disagreeing with them being labelled a racist.

BLM has a broad variety of members with all sorts of views including some being out and out capitalists.

Someone who is racist being labelled racist isn't an extreme point of view.

[Newry Hibs]

....

Someone who is racist being labelled racist isn't an extreme point of view.

Indeed. But labelling someone as racist for having a different point of view is extreme.

[Kato]

Indeed. But labelling someone as racist for having a different point of view is extreme.What is the different point of view?

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[JimBHibees]

It's remarkable how every co-ordinated attempt at anti-racism or any anti-racist organisation is almost immediately labelled as "Marxist" or whatever by the usual suspects.

Yep very convenient

[Andy74]

Millwall players didn’t take the knee.

No but they did wear shirts with an anti racism slogan and they stood with an anti racism banner before kick off.

[H18 SFR]

You may be right, but do they use the word Jock in same song? I thought they did, possibly because I experienced prejudice as well as friendly banter when I lived there.

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When I was at Trafalgar Square before the England game the Scottish fans were singing you can stick your royal baby up your arse and we’re gonna deep fry your baby. It’s wrong to single out English fans if we are singing offensive crap as well to be honest.

[wookie70]

When I was at Trafalgar Square before the England game the Scottish fans were singing you can stick your royal baby up your arse and we’re gonna deep fry your baby. It’s wrong to single out English fans if we are singing offensive crap as well to be honest. Offensive for sure but not racist

[Scott Allan Key]

When I was at Trafalgar Square before the England game the Scottish fans were singing you can stick your royal baby up your arse and we’re gonna deep fry your baby. It’s wrong to single out English fans if we are singing offensive crap as well to be honest.I'm not a member of the Tartan Army. Scotland have been irredemably ***** in my adulthood. I'm not surprised we do this, however, we do make an effort generally to get on with our hosts when we're away.

Unless 'we' are Huns of course.

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[Frazerbob]

Offensive for sure but not racist

Offensive? It’s clearly not to be taken literally. A lot more went in in Trafalgar Square that day to be outraged about, much of it involving our casuals. Not sure poking fun at the royals ranks up there.

[basehibby]

Wow! So what you are saying is that there is not a problem with racism in the UK and we should be protesting the ‘persecution’ of a self-important egoist?


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Your comment re Assange betrays the shallowness of your understanding of current affairs so I won't feign surprise at your total misreading and/or willful misrepresentation of my comments.

The taking the knee gesture was taken up by football in the UK as an act of solidarity following events in the US which also sparked wider debate in the UK about our history in the slave trade and it's resulting legacy - but if the righting of these historic wrongs was the end objective of "taking the knee" then someone forgot to tell the fans about it. Most associate it with the BLM movement and George Floyd and, while not objecting to the gesture, many including myself are starting to think the point is being laboured to the point of being patronising.

Given that general mood then, the boos at the likes of Millwall become less surprising. I won't be naive and pretend that none of those booing were racists - probably most of them were. But their reaction also betrays a general boredum amongst football fans at being preached at - something I alluded to by stating I do NOT expect us all to be holding candle lit vigils before Kick Off for Julian Assange every week (a genuine hero of our times contrary to your trite assertions) even if that is a massive story which has run concurrently with the rise of BLM in the States, but, by contrast has been woefully under-reported.

[jacomo]

Your comment re Assange betrays the shallowness of your understanding of current affairs so I won't feign surprise at your total misreading and/or willful misrepresentation of my comments.

The taking the knee gesture was taken up by football in the UK as an act of solidarity following events in the US which also sparked wider debate in the UK about our history in the slave trade and it's resulting legacy - but if the righting of these historic wrongs was the end objective of "taking the knee" then someone forgot to tell the fans about it. Most associate it with the BLM movement and George Floyd and, while not objecting to the gesture, many including myself are starting to think the point is being laboured to the point of being patronising.

Given that general mood then, the boos at the likes of Millwall become less surprising. I won't be naive and pretend that none of those booing were racists - probably most of them were. But their reaction also betrays a general boredum amongst football fans at being preached at - something I alluded to by stating I do NOT expect us all to be holding candle lit vigils before Kick Off for Julian Assange every week (a genuine hero of our times contrary to your trite assertions) even if that is a massive story which has run concurrently with the rise of BLM in the States, but, by contrast has been woefully under-reported.


Again, we find out who the real ‘snowflakes’ are. It’s the folk who feel so offended by a group of footballers taking a few seconds to highlight injustice that they feel justified booing them and then claim they are being preached at.

[HFC_NYC]

I saw it mentioned that the boos were aimed at a player who broke ranks and instead of kneeling, decided to stand and raise a "Black Power" fist. I'm wondering what the response would be to this hypothetical scenario whereby all players (of all colors) are taking a knee in protest against the genocide of white farmers in South Africa and one white player decides to stand and do the nazi salute?

I'm in no way trying to justify the actions of the Millwall fans, just merely raising point for discussion.

[Victor]

Your comment re Assange betrays the shallowness of your understanding of current affairs so I won't feign surprise at your total misreading and/or willful misrepresentation of my comments.

The taking the knee gesture was taken up by football in the UK as an act of solidarity following events in the US which also sparked wider debate in the UK about our history in the slave trade and it's resulting legacy - but if the righting of these historic wrongs was the end objective of "taking the knee" then someone forgot to tell the fans about it. Most associate it with the BLM movement and George Floyd and, while not objecting to the gesture, many including myself are starting to think the point is being laboured to the point of being patronising.

Given that general mood then, the boos at the likes of Millwall become less surprising. I won't be naive and pretend that none of those booing were racists - probably most of them were. But their reaction also betrays a general boredum amongst football fans at being preached at - something I alluded to by stating I do NOT expect us all to be holding candle lit vigils before Kick Off for Julian Assange every week (a genuine hero of our times contrary to your trite assertions) even if that is a massive story which has run concurrently with the rise of BLM in the States, but, by contrast has been woefully under-reported.

Double wow! Hero Assange! If such a shallow person is your idea of a ‘hero’, then you must have low ideals. I think my understanding of current affairs extends to being able to identify those who are out to help others and those out to help themselves at the cost of others. Mr. A is the latter. I am sure that those who are persecuted and harassed simply for not being white, would love to be bored rather than subjected to abuse and hatred. Of course they could follow your hero’s example and take shelter in the embassy of some country controlled by a despot if the things get too much for them.


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[basehibby]

Again, we find out who the real ‘snowflakes’ are. It’s the folk who feel so offended by a group of footballers taking a few seconds to highlight injustice that they feel justified booing them and then claim they are being preached at.

You prove my point there somewhat with a post that is as sanctimonious as it's spurious in it's inaccuracy.

Please point out where I said I was offended by or felt justified in booing anything at all.

[basehibby]

Double wow! Hero Assange! If such a shallow person is your idea of a ‘hero’, then you must have low ideals. I think my understanding of current affairs extends to being able to identify those who are out to help others and those out to help themselves at the cost of others. Mr. A is the latter. I am sure that those who are persecuted and harassed simply for not being white, would love to be bored rather than subjected to abuse and hatred. Of course they could follow your hero’s example and take shelter in the embassy of some country controlled by a despot if the things get too much for them.


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I'll forgive you your ignorance as this story has been almost exclusively misreported when not ignored in the MSM.

Among other massive scoops Assange has this century been responsible for:

Exposure of multiple War Crimes
Exposing High Level Political corruption
Exposing the secret mass surveillance of the entire populations of the US, UK and Australia


For the above so called "crimes" (otherwise known as journalism) the USA is currently attempting to extradite Assange with the intent of locking him up for the rest of his life in high security solitary detention - conditions which he currently is subject to at Belmarsh Prison in London.

If you think none of this has value - or that this is all about trumped up sex allegations in Sweden then you had best zip up the back of your head lest all the sawdust falls out.

[CapitalGreen]

I saw it mentioned that the boos were aimed at a player who broke ranks and instead of kneeling, decided to stand and raise a "Black Power" fist. I'm wondering what the response would be to this hypothetical scenario whereby all players (of all colors) are taking a knee in protest against the genocide of white farmers in South Africa and one white player decides to stand and do the nazi salute?

I'm in no way trying to justify the actions of the Millwall fans, just merely raising point for discussion.

Nah, that’s not what happened. There were Millwall fans planning to boo prior to the game so the idea that it was some spontaneous response to the actions of one player on the pitch is nonsense and nothing more than attempted smokescreen to excuse their racist response.

[jacomo]

You prove my point there somewhat with a post that is as sanctimonious as it's spurious in it's inaccuracy.

Please point out where I said I was offended by or felt justified in booing anything at all.


I didn’t accuse you of anything.

People being offended by players taking the knee really need to take a look at themselves though.

[Keith_M]

I saw it mentioned that the boos were aimed at a player who broke ranks and instead of kneeling, decided to stand and raise a "Black Power" fist. I'm wondering what the response would be to this hypothetical scenario whereby all players (of all colors) are taking a knee in protest against the genocide of white farmers in South Africa and one white player decides to stand and do the nazi salute?

I'm in no way trying to justify the actions of the Millwall fans, just merely raising point for discussion.


In what universe is a Black Power salute equivalent to a Nazi Salute?

:confused:

[Victor]

Triple wow! When someone has to result to insults, you know their argument is on shaky ground. Yes, by dumping information he may have exposed corruption etc, but by dumping information without understanding the full implication of what he was doing, he also endangered lives. Some of the information exposed sources who were battling against corrupt governments. Trumped up sex charges? That is offensive to the woman brave enough to come forward. The charges were only ‘dropped’ becauseSweden has a strict statute of limitations and Assange thwarted this by taking refuge in the embassy. I think you should remove your Assange coloured glasses and stop believing in conspiracy theories. Getting back to the topic in hand if players wish to show solidarity in a stance against injustice and the footballing authorities are in agreement then those who boo should be condemned. If people kneeling offends them, then they should take their seats after kick-off.


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[EI255]

Sky Sports let themselves down last night. The cheering before ko was clearly piped, yet Sky still try to brainwash everyone saying that the fans cheered. No, they didn't. Sky protecting their interest again.

After all, a slick TV package and racism don't mix.

The biggest surprise from all of this is that Sky actually gave the whole issue air time. They tend not to.

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