Millwall Fans Booing The Players

[AT8]

In what universe is a Black Power salute equivalent to a Nazi Salute?

:confused:

I'm sure the Millwall racists are as offended by the black power fist as the rest of us are offended by the nazi salute. Again, I wasn't defending their actions, just simply giving an example of why they may not have been booing the act of taking the knee.

[basehibby]

I didn’t accuse you of anything.

People being offended by players taking the knee really need to take a look at themselves though.

You did reply to my post though and link the booing/offense taking to my separate observation that football fans ARE being preached at and many ARE getting fed up with it.
I consider myself to be anti-racist but have confessed in this thread to my bemusement and bewilderment at the seemingly endless and aimless nature of the taking the knee "protest". I'm sure that for some players it will be a heartfelt symbol of their solidarity - it is though an act which they are effectively compelled to take and in that respect my earlier quote marks around the word "protest" are not misplaced.
It gave me no joy to hear the Millwall fans booing and there's no way I would have been joining in with them - but it's unsurprising in the above context that fans following clubs which we know to have racist elements in their support have eventually reacted in this way. By dragging out the taking the knee gesture with seemingly no end objective in sight, the authorities have effectively invited such a response and are now faced with the prospect of possible prolonged confrontation or an embarassing back down rather than bringing the whole thing to a dignified conclusion.

[bigwheel]

You did reply to my post though and link the booing/offense taking to my separate observation that football fans ARE being preached at and many ARE getting fed up with it.
I consider myself to be anti-racist but have confessed in this thread to my bemusement and bewilderment at the seemingly endless and aimless nature of the taking the knee "protest". I'm sure that for some players it will be a heartfelt symbol of their solidarity - it is though an act which they are effectively compelled to take and in that respect my earlier quote marks around the word "protest" are not misplaced.
It gave me no joy to hear the Millwall fans booing and there's no way I would have been joining in with them - but it's unsurprising in the above context that fans following clubs which we know to have racist elements in their support have eventually reacted in this way. By dragging out the taking the knee gesture with seemingly no end objective in sight, the authorities have effectively invited such a response and are now faced with the prospect of possible prolonged confrontation or an embarassing back down rather than bringing the whole thing to a dignified conclusion.

Why do you care though ? Are you as bewildered and bemused about the racism that black and minorities experience everyday as you are about this minor symbolic act of “protest”? Do you care about the hate as much as this small respectful gesture that some people are being asked to do ?

I say let’s stop concerning ourselves over the providence of people taking the knee and address the hate and inequalities that triggered it .

[basehibby]

Why do you care though ? Are you as bewildered and bemused about the racism that black and minorities experience everyday as you are about this minor symbolic act of “protest”? Do you care about the hate as much as this small respectful gesture that some people are being asked to do ?

I say let’s stop concerning ourselves over the providence of people taking the knee and address the hate and inequalities that triggered it .

Why do I care? Because I am anti-racist and am concerned that this concerted campaign of mandated corporate virtue signalling could end up undermining any good will gained by turning ordinary people who are sick of being preached at away from the core message of equal rights, opportunities and respect for all.

From a personal POV, my own bewilderment and bemusement is but a minor distraction and I get on with watching the football. Doesn't stop me having an opinion though.

[basehibby]

Triple wow! When someone has to result to insults, you know their argument is on shaky ground. Yes, by dumping information he may have exposed corruption etc, but by dumping information without understanding the full implication of what he was doing, he also endangered lives. Some of the information exposed sources who were battling against corrupt governments. Trumped up sex charges? That is offensive to the woman brave enough to come forward. The charges were only ‘dropped’ becauseSweden has a strict statute of limitations and Assange thwarted this by taking refuge in the embassy. I think you should remove your Assange coloured glasses and stop believing in conspiracy theories. Getting back to the topic in hand if players wish to show solidarity in a stance against injustice and the footballing authorities are in agreement then those who boo should be condemned. If people kneeling offends them, then they should take their seats after kick-off.


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You think I've been insulting? Well quadruple WOW! The head full of sawdust jibe is entirely merited going by your further slaverings above, which demonstrate very well the superficial nature of your stated interest in taking a "stance against injustice".

If you had paid any attention to the recent extradition hearing then you may have been aware of the expert witnesses who extolled the lengths Assange went to to redact prior to publication - and of the fact that precisely NOONE has come to any physical harm as a result of his many stunning revelations.
You would also be aware of the blatant nature of the Swedish set up and the transparency of it's real objective - to facilitate extradition to the USA.

Getting back to the topic I have no problem at all if players wish to show their solidarity to causes dear to their hearts (although football authorities tend to differ), but that's not really what's happening and everybody knows it. The players are effectively compelled to take part and, even if most of them probably don't mind at all and some perhaps relish it, the longer it goes on the more of an empty gesture it becomes. I would have said that the end of Black History Month (October) would have been a fitting time to bring things to a conclusion in terms of the taking the knee gesture at Football matches but they have chosen to drag it out indefinitely. So now there's been a backlash which was as predictable as it's regretable. I don't see what that's done to boost the cause of race relations.

[CapitalGreen]

I'm sure the Millwall racists are as offended by the black power fist as the rest of us are offended by the nazi salute. Again, I wasn't defending their actions, just simply giving an example of why they may not have been booing the act of taking the knee.

You maybe weren’t defending them but you were certainly trying to downplay them or excuse them in someway by introducing a false narrative and comparing their actions to protesting a Nazi salute. However it is no great surprise that you would do so as a Trump voter it is the exact same thing your loser of a president would do.

[Victor]

You think I've been insulting? Well quadruple WOW! The head full of sawdust jibe is entirely merited going by your further slaverings above, which demonstrate very well the superficial nature of your stated interest in taking a "stance against injustice".

If you had paid any attention to the recent extradition hearing then you may have been aware of the expert witnesses who extolled the lengths Assange went to to redact prior to publication - and of the fact that precisely NOONE has come to any physical harm as a result of his many stunning revelations.
You would also be aware of the blatant nature of the Swedish set up and the transparency of it's real objective - to facilitate extradition to the USA.

Getting back to the topic I have no problem at all if players wish to show their solidarity to causes dear to their hearts (although football authorities tend to differ), but that's not really what's happening and everybody knows it. The players are effectively compelled to take part and, even if most of them probably don't mind at all and some perhaps relish it, the longer it goes on the more of an empty gesture it becomes. I would have said that the end of Black History Month (October) would have been a fitting time to bring things to a conclusion in terms of the taking the knee gesture at Football matches but they have chosen to drag it out indefinitely. So now there's been a backlash which was as predictable as it's regretable. I don't see what that's done to boost the cause of race relations.

Brilliant! Thanks for that, that is me put in my place. You are obviously my intellectual superior and I should have known better than to disagree with you. I now know my place and won’t dare insult St. Julian again. It is obvious that you are a huge supporter of his and that he can do no wrong in your eyes, it is also obvious that everyone is out to get him because, just like you he knows best and they are scared of him. You obviously have a superior knowledge of The Swedish legal system and know that no one got hurt by his dumping of classified information. Must be great to be so sure of your opinions and be able to brush of the arguments of intellectual inferiors, a bit like Mr. Assange. So we now know that you are anti-racist, but condone racist behaviour, believe that nothing should be kept secret, unless it disparages good people like Mr. Assange and no one should fare hold a different opinion from you unless they want to be insulted. Thanks again.


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[hibsbollah]

Is anyone else waiting for the first reported use of the phrase ‘Quintuple wow’?. I know I am.

[bigwheel]

Why do I care? Because I am anti-racist and am concerned that this concerted campaign of mandated corporate virtue signalling could end up undermining any good will gained by turning ordinary people who are sick of being preached at away from the core message of equal rights, opportunities and respect for all.

From a personal POV, my own bewilderment and bemusement is but a minor distraction and I get on with watching the football. Doesn't stop me having an opinion though.

Corporate virtue signalling ? Even if it was (which it isn’t)...would it really matter as a symbolic act against centuries of hate and inequality? If anything is drifting away from the central message of equality is those trying to make it about “virtue signalling” rather than an act of respectful support .

It’s going to end soon enough ..still have no sense of why anyone who supports the cause would care about 15 seconds of taking the knee..

Ps. Appreciate the different opinion - just don’t understand why you see it for anything other than a simple Mark of respect

[marinello59]

Is anyone else waiting for the first reported use of the phrase ‘Quintuple wow’?. I know I am.

Im hoping for a ‘quintuple wow with knobs on.’

[basehibby]

Corporate virtue signalling ? Even if it was (which it isn’t)...would it really matter as a symbolic act against centuries of hate and inequality? If anything is drifting away from the central message of equality is those trying to make it about “virtue signalling” rather than an act of respectful support .

It’s going to end soon enough ..still have no sense of why anyone who supports the cause would care about 15 seconds of taking the knee..

Ps. Appreciate the different opinion - just don’t understand why you see it for anything other than a simple Mark of respect

I was never against the taking the knee as a gesture of solidarity per se, but it's been going on for months now and I have wondered why it was being adhered to with such relentless religiosity all of a sudden - particularly in the context of football. Afterall racism and US police violence - abhorrent as they are - are absolutely nothing new, and as I mentioned earlier, they are hardly the only evils in the world worthy of our attention. It's not as if these are spontaneous acts of support instigated by the players either - rather they are calculated acts carried out at the behest of the Football Authorities and their sponsors (and others?), using the players as the instruments of their political gesturing.

So - it's not something I was about to write to my MP about or anything, but still downright weird behaviour from the football authorities IMO and yes - patronising to many viewers. The Millwall incident has thrown this all into sharp relief - I don't support their booing but do think it's symptomatic of a wider irritation among football fans who are not racists but are getting tired of being patronised every time they want to watch a game.

[bigwheel]

I was never against the taking the knee as a gesture of solidarity per se, but it's been going on for months now and I have wondered why it was being adhered to with such relentless religiosity all of a sudden - particularly in the context of football. Afterall racism and US police violence - abhorrent as they are - are absolutely nothing new, and as I mentioned earlier, they are hardly the only evils in the world worthy of our attention. It's not as if these are spontaneous acts of support instigated by the players either - rather they are calculated acts carried out at the behest of the Football Authorities and their sponsors (and others?), using the players as the instruments of their political gesturing.

So - it's not something I was about to write to my MP about or anything, but still downright weird behaviour from the football authorities IMO and yes - patronising to many viewers. The Millwall incident has thrown this all into sharp relief - I don't support their booing but do think it's symptomatic of a wider irritation among football fans who are not racists but are getting tired of being patronised every time they want to watch a game.

The booing was about hate...there was no “corporate virtue signalling “ issue going on there....this action will end in weeks likely, do you really feel patronised for the 15 seconds or so it takes before a game ???


racism and police violence being nothing new or the only world evil, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be saying enough is enough in my eyes. Why not take a stand for once ? How else will change happen


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[JimBHibees]

It’s not about Marx really of course.

It’s just about labelling people as extremists in order to rubbish their argument.

Exactly what it is.

[Phil MaGlass]

Brilliant! Thanks for that, that is me put in my place. You are obviously my intellectual superior and I should have known better than to disagree with you. I now know my place and won’t dare insult St. Julian again. It is obvious that you are a huge supporter of his and that he can do no wrong in your eyes, it is also obvious that everyone is out to get him because, just like you he knows best and they are scared of him. You obviously have a superior knowledge of The Swedish legal system and know that no one got hurt by his dumping of classified information. Must be great to be so sure of your opinions and be able to brush of the arguments of intellectual inferiors, a bit like Mr. Assange. So we now know that you are anti-racist, but condone racist behaviour, believe that nothing should be kept secret, unless it disparages good people like Mr. Assange and no one should fare hold a different opinion from you unless they want to be insulted. Thanks again.


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Not taking sides here, although it would be bery easy to do, it has been mentioned regularly on BBC and one or two other media outlets that no one has been harmed through the release of any information and the US were spying on those countries mentioned and yes the Americans are out to get him for daring to release the truth.

[jacomo]

I was never against the taking the knee as a gesture of solidarity per se, but it's been going on for months now and I have wondered why it was being adhered to with such relentless religiosity all of a sudden - particularly in the context of football. Afterall racism and US police violence - abhorrent as they are - are absolutely nothing new, and as I mentioned earlier, they are hardly the only evils in the world worthy of our attention. It's not as if these are spontaneous acts of support instigated by the players either - rather they are calculated acts carried out at the behest of the Football Authorities and their sponsors (and others?), using the players as the instruments of their political gesturing.

So - it's not something I was about to write to my MP about or anything, but still downright weird behaviour from the football authorities IMO and yes - patronising to many viewers. The Millwall incident has thrown this all into sharp relief - I don't support their booing but do think it's symptomatic of a wider irritation among football fans who are not racists but are getting tired of being patronised every time they want to watch a game.


I think you are way off here.

The origins of ‘taking the knee’ were organic and spontaneous, and if some companies are rather cynically jumping on the bandwagon - well, that’s capitalism for you.

You seem more concerned about white people being offended by it than the issues being raised by BLM.

When will it end? Is it too trite to say it will end when the police stop discriminating against people because they are black? Darcus Howe was protesting about this 50 years ago. Perhaps your anger is better directed at those who allowed such discrimination to continue for so long?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I was never against the taking the knee as a gesture of solidarity per se, but it's been going on for months now and I have wondered why it was being adhered to with such relentless religiosity all of a sudden - particularly in the context of football. Afterall racism and US police violence - abhorrent as they are - are absolutely nothing new, and as I mentioned earlier, they are hardly the only evils in the world worthy of our attention. It's not as if these are spontaneous acts of support instigated by the players either - rather they are calculated acts carried out at the behest of the Football Authorities and their sponsors (and others?), using the players as the instruments of their political gesturing.

So - it's not something I was about to write to my MP about or anything, but still downright weird behaviour from the football authorities IMO and yes - patronising to many viewers. The Millwall incident has thrown this all into sharp relief - I don't support their booing but do think it's symptomatic of a wider irritation among football fans who are not racists but are getting tired of being patronised every time they want to watch a game.

Have you asked any folks from BLM or Black or ethnic minorities how they feel about it? How long or far does your act of solidarity last? Where do you draw the line before giving support?

My take is taking the knee is in part about raising awareness - maybe if it appears to irritating others and the feeling “but it’s been months now” will perhaps see the irony in that.

So from awareness needs action and change but after too many false dawns - civil rights marches for Blacks and also Gays was the 60s how much progress has really been made and now Trumpism has seen a slide back.

Now more than ever a stand needs to be taken. We should maintain solidarity. I’d suggest that is should be the folks I as a white Scot show solidarity with who decide when they wish to stop the gesture. 15 seconds. You could always check your prostate and help another worthy cause if you preferred to do something else with your time :)

[Jones28]

I've had to unfollow Match Of The Day on facebook this morning, like the content they provide but holy hell the comments on the posts are depressing reading.

[Jones28]

I was never against the taking the knee as a gesture of solidarity per se, but it's been going on for months now and I have wondered why it was being adhered to with such relentless religiosity all of a sudden - particularly in the context of football. Afterall racism and US police violence - abhorrent as they are - are absolutely nothing new, and as I mentioned earlier, they are hardly the only evils in the world worthy of our attention. It's not as if these are spontaneous acts of support instigated by the players either - rather they are calculated acts carried out at the behest of the Football Authorities and their sponsors (and others?), using the players as the instruments of their political gesturing.

So - it's not something I was about to write to my MP about or anything, but still downright weird behaviour from the football authorities IMO and yes - patronising to many viewers. The Millwall incident has thrown this all into sharp relief - I don't support their booing but do think it's symptomatic of a wider irritation among football fans who are not racists but are getting tired of being patronised every time they want to watch a game.

If you feel patronised watching 22 people take the knee for 20 seconds over the course of a 90 minute football game then you are part of the problem.

[Victor]

Not taking sides here, although it would be bery easy to do, it has been mentioned regularly on BBC and one or two other media outlets that no one has been harmed through the release of any information and the US were spying on those countries mentioned and yes the Americans are out to get him for daring to release the truth.

Which is what the current extradition hearing will establish. Let’s not forget, Assange is not in prison for his beliefs, he is there because he breached the conditions of his bail. His original court appearance was regarding an extradition request from Sweden relating to allegations of sexual assault. After the proceedings started Assange was on bail, but at liberty in England. He failed to appear at Court for future hearings by taking refuge in the embassy. When they eventually kicked him out he was arrested for breaching his bail, because the statute of limitations on the original charges had passed, he was not granted bail on the bail charge because he is clearly a flight risk. During his incarceration the US applied for his extradition, which is why he is still in prison. The Court will decide if he should be extradited ( there is a fair chance he won’t). He is a victim of his own devices and certainly not worthy of protests at football matches, which is why we got here in the first place!


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[EI255]

If you feel patronised watching 22 people take the knee for 20 seconds over the course of a 90 minute football game then you are part of the problem.Doesn't take much to find them out!

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[bigwheel]

Doesn't take much to find them out!

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Think it was the Guardian this morning that had an article that’s point was “The right are all for freedom of expression, except for taking the knee..”. Sums it up for me.


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[Jones28]

[QUOTE=bigwheel;6377703]Think it was the Guardian this morning that had an article that’s point was “The right are all for freedom of expression, except for taking the knee..”. Sums it up for me.


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Yepp, an Owen Jones article.

[EI255]

Think it was the Guardian this morning that had an article that’s point was “The right are all for freedom of expression, except for taking the knee..”. Sums it up for me.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkWow!

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[Magpie]

Brentford have just released a statement saying they will no longer be taking the knee before matches.

[Wilson]

Brentford have just released a statement saying they will no longer be taking the knee before matches.

Because it has lost the initial impact it had and that there are other vehicles for tackling the issue. Quite right I think.

Taking the knee isn't a story anymore until someone doesn't do it - then they become the story instead. It's done as a meaningful gesture.

[FilipinoHibs]

Because it has lost the initial impact it had and that there are other vehicles for tackling the issue. Quite right I think.

Taking the knee isn't a story anymore until someone doesn't do it - then they become the story instead. It's done as a meaningful gesture.

I would scrap the moment of reflection. It is pathetic and sends the wrong message to minorities in the US. Better to do nothing.

[Keith_M]

I would scrap the moment of reflection. It is pathetic and sends the wrong message to minorities in the US. Better to do nothing.


Just out of interest; How much longer do you personally feel that footballers should continue with this gesture?


3 months? 6 months? 1 year? Permanently?

:dunno:

[WeeRussell]

Just out of interest; How much longer do you personally feel that footballers should continue with this gesture?


3 months? 6 months? 1 year? Permanently?

:dunno:

Personally I’d keep it up for as long as it provokes a reaction from at least one racist/ignorant right winger.

So probably the latter of your options :)

[Keith_M]

Personally I’d keep it up for as long as it provokes a reaction from at least one racist/ignorant right winger.

So probably the latter of your options :)


Or maybe until our players start getting trouble with their knees?

:greengrin

[WeeRussell]

Or maybe until our players start getting trouble with their knees?

:greengrin

Fair point. Maybe we can think of an alternative for Auld Daz.. could do with keeping him in working order right now.

[jacomo]

Think it was the Guardian this morning that had an article that’s point was “The right are all for freedom of expression, except for taking the knee..”. Sums it up for me.


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So true.

See also ****holes like Farage, who will happily insult anyone they like and claim ‘freedom of speech’ but if someone makes a poor taste joke about them they call in the police.

[EI255]

Just out of interest; How much longer do you personally feel that footballers should continue with this gesture?


3 months? 6 months? 1 year? Permanently?

:dunno:It has the chance to become as dull as the 8pm NHS clap.

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[makaveli1875]

Usually by the time I get my janky stream up and running I miss the knee. They should do it again at the start of the 2nd half for all us folks out in the sticks with shan Internet connections

[CropleyWasGod]

Usually by the time I get my janky stream up and running I miss the knee. They should do it again at the start of the 2nd half for all us folks out in the sticks with shan Internet connections

Get the 10 second challenge tae F.

"This one goes out to Makaveli... get those knees down, kids"