Amazon

[Hibbyradge]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?

[Since90+2]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?

Because if we aren't careful it will become eventually become a monopoly.

[Hibbyradge]

Because if we aren't careful it will become eventually become a monopoly.

Do you not use Amazon for that reason?

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you not use Amazon for that reason?

That's the main reason I don't use them. So much of my working life has been spent in the "wee guy" environment, which won't be there if we all use Amazon.

[Ozyhibby]

That's the main reason I don't use them. So much of my working life has been spent in the "wee guy" environment, which won't be there if we all use Amazon.

Lots of ‘wee guys’ are actually selling on Amazon these days.
I agree we need competition for Amazon though and I’m sure there are some pretty big companies looking at how they can do that.
Right now though, Amazon are second to none on service and price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Speedy]

In theory it will kill local business and takes money out of local communities.

People normally have grumbles about tax and working conditions of these big companies too (although I don't know a loy of the details in this case).

For what it is worth, Amazon is used a lot in my house.

[Hibrandenburg]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?

Think yourself lucky, I also have Prime and ordered a chemistry set for the boy's Christmas on the 18th of November. It was also listed as 1 day delivery but as Christmas is still a few days away I didn't pay much attention. The set was priced at €17.99 which was a good deal as the RRP was around €24. FFW to the 23rd and I'd still hadn't received the package so I had a look at the delivery tracking and noticed that it had been sent out on the 18th and arrived in a collection centre in southern Germany, from there it was sent out to another distribution centre in Bielefeld northern Germany where it's arrival was logged as the 19th of November and it was registered as out for delivery. On the same day my package arrived back at the same collection centre where it started its journey. I called Amazon who told me to wait until Friday the 27th to see if it turned up because it was no longer by them in the system. Friday came and went so I called Amazon again who immediately refunded my money.

All fair and above board you might think, however I then had a look to see if I could reorder the chemistry set. A quick search found only one seller and that was the same one that I'd placed my original order with, the only difference was that instead of being priced at €17.99 the set now cost €79.99 with €8.85 post and package. You don't have to be a genius to work out what had happened, the dealer had obviously realised he could get much more for the chemistry set and had recalled the package.

As I always do when I get shoddy service I wrote a review and explained the reasoning why the review was bad. Today I received a mail from Amazon explaining that they won't publish the review because of "words of profanity" used in the review. The word they singled out was "shoddy".

[Jack]

I was concerned they didn't look after their staff but during this crisis they seem to have been very good from what I've heard.

It disgusts me that they avoid paying taxes - look at what our employees pay in taxes is about as crap an excuse as there is for not contributing fairly to the society they are in.

Having said that my wife has prime and of course I use it. I go there first get a price then try and beat it elsewhere.

At the moment I'm more 'never buy from China direct'. Nothing Trumpish. They just make it as impractical as they can to return stuff, even its not as advertised or smashed to bits. The Chinese are also a different size to us so no clothes. My wife bought bras from China. They didn't fit despite them being her size. They wanted photos of them not fitting before they would consider an exchange with her arranging postage etc.!

[Scouse Hibee]

Amazon is convenience shopping andI am currently finding it very useful.

[Ozyhibby]

I was concerned they didn't look after their staff but during this crisis they seem to have been very good from what I've heard.

It disgusts me that they avoid paying taxes - look at what our employees pay in taxes is about as crap an excuse as there is for not contributing fairly to the society they are in.

Having said that my wife has prime and of course I use it. I go there first get a price then try and beat it elsewhere.

At the moment I'm more 'never buy from China direct'. Nothing Trumpish. They just make it as impractical as they can to return stuff, even its not as advertised or smashed to bits. The Chinese are also a different size to us so no clothes. My wife bought bras from China. They didn't fit despite them being her size. They wanted photos of them not fitting before they would consider an exchange with her arranging postage etc.!

Although they minimise their tax, as most companies do, they give all the benefits of that to the consumer. They don’t pay out any dividends to the owners and reinvest everything back into the business of improving the company, which benefits their customers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dalianwanda]

Living out in a rural area Amazon is great for those hard to find things. It’s also generally cheaper. Saying that there is a facebook page called shop in Ireland which has amazing stuff on it from artists, designers and most other things you can think of. Prices are great and your getting something straight from the person who made it. So far i’ve bought art, earrings, bird table, crystals and beanies.

So i think I’m getting the balance right.

[Peevemor]

Is there not a British alternative to Amazon?

In France there's Cdiscount, a French set-up, who do the same thing and have been outselling Amazon since 2013.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdiscount

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

People will use Amazon for 2 main reasons. Price and availability. If you can get something cheaper and next day, it's a no brainer.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lots of ‘wee guys’ are actually selling on Amazon these days.
I agree we need competition for Amazon though and I’m sure there are some pretty big companies looking at how they can do that.
Right now though, Amazon are second to none on service and price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On that, I beg to differ. On the delivery side I have had so many things that have been delivered to the wrong address. They use some app linked to google maps which has a point on a map and they deliver to that location, regardless of the actual address. It might be easy in a street with sequential numbers but not in a rural location where every address is a house name.

We regularly had Amazon deliveries to a house with a very different name to ours which is a quarter of a mile away. The solution is to go into your profile and edit your location. For the past 6 months, at least, neighbours 150m away have been getting their Amzon parcels delivered to me.

The drivers use the location point on their app and not common sense.

[CropleyWasGod]

Lots of ‘wee guys’ are actually selling on Amazon these days.
I agree we need competition for Amazon though and I’m sure there are some pretty big companies looking at how they can do that.
Right now though, Amazon are second to none on service and price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These guys have their margins screwed,though, which means they have to do huge volumes to make any decent money. Conversely, the non-Amazon traders can make better profits just by competing on price.

There's definitely a place, as you say, for an alternative. Something a bit more ethically sound...a farmers market of the internet.😁

[CropleyWasGod]

I was concerned they didn't look after their staff but during this crisis they seem to have been very good from what I've heard.

It disgusts me that they avoid paying taxes - look at what our employees pay in taxes is about as crap an excuse as there is for not contributing fairly to the society they are in.

Having said that my wife has prime and of course I use it. I go there first get a price then try and beat it elsewhere.

At the moment I'm more 'never buy from China direct'. Nothing Trumpish. They just make it as impractical as they can to return stuff, even its not as advertised or smashed to bits. The Chinese are also a different size to us so no clothes. My wife bought bras from China. They didn't fit despite them being her size. They wanted photos of them not fitting before they would consider an exchange with her arranging postage etc.!

At the risk of hijacking the thread, the tax thing isn't really their fault. That's down to those who make the laws.

[Keith_M]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?


Lots of reasons posted on here...

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?349321-Black-Friday-Deals!!!!

[Just_Jimmy]

need something, pick up my phone, find it and buy it, usually with free next day delivery, all within 5 mins.

because I live in a city (I imagine Edinburgh will be the same?) I've even had things same day!

can't beat that without going out to a shop.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Colr]

Have to be careful with Amazon and not just assume they are the cheapest.

There’s some terrible price gouging on there and one trick is obscenely high postage charges which appear ‘below the line’.

I also got hit with custom charges when an item arrived from abroad.

[Santa Cruz]

Think yourself lucky, I also have Prime and ordered a chemistry set for the boy's Christmas on the 18th of November. It was also listed as 1 day delivery but as Christmas is still a few days away I didn't pay much attention. The set was priced at €17.99 which was a good deal as the RRP was around €24. FFW to the 23rd and I'd still hadn't received the package so I had a look at the delivery tracking and noticed that it had been sent out on the 18th and arrived in a collection centre in southern Germany, from there it was sent out to another distribution centre in Bielefeld northern Germany where it's arrival was logged as the 19th of November and it was registered as out for delivery. On the same day my package arrived back at the same collection centre where it started its journey. I called Amazon who told me to wait until Friday the 27th to see if it turned up because it was no longer by them in the system. Friday came and went so I called Amazon again who immediately refunded my money.

All fair and above board you might think, however I then had a look to see if I could reorder the chemistry set. A quick search found only one seller and that was the same one that I'd placed my original order with, the only difference was that instead of being priced at €17.99 the set now cost €79.99 with €8.85 post and package. You don't have to be a genius to work out what had happened, the dealer had obviously realised he could get much more for the chemistry set and had recalled the package.

As I always do when I get shoddy service I wrote a review and explained the reasoning why the review was bad. Today I received a mail from Amazon explaining that they won't publish the review because of "words of profanity" used in the review. The word they singled out was "shoddy".

I had something similar happen to me on Ebay once. No idea if the same advertising/listing fee's apply to Amazon sellers, but in my case when I went back to purchase my item and noticed it had changed to a ridiculous price way over the RRP, I contacted the seller and asked how this could be justified. The explanation I got was the original item had sold out and they didn't want to remove the listing as they were a business and would be charged again for creating a new listing when they received more stock. So they advertise it at such an inflated price because they know nobody will purchase it, to avoid further charges.

[green&left]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?

Cos they will decimate high streets, will soon have a monopoly on not just e-commerce but retail as a whole, their owner is a c*** and the working conditions are appalling. Other than then nothing - great bunch of lads I guess.

[Killiehibbie]

On that, I beg to differ. On the delivery side I have had so many things that have been delivered to the wrong address. They use some app linked to google maps which has a point on a map and they deliver to that location, regardless of the actual address. It might be easy in a street with sequential numbers but not in a rural location where every address is a house name.

We regularly had Amazon deliveries to a house with a very different name to ours which is a quarter of a mile away. The solution is to go into your profile and edit your location. For the past 6 months, at least, neighbours 150m away have been getting their Amzon parcels delivered to me.

The drivers use the location point on their app and not common sense.
I could fill a few pages with tales of sat nav followers leaving parcels in derelict barns, behind hedges, under feeding troughs and beside just about every farm machine imaginable because they couldn't look any further than their master said was the destination

[Hibrandenburg]

I had something similar happen to me on Ebay once. No idea if the same advertising/listing fee's apply to Amazon sellers, but in my case when I went back to purchase my item and noticed it had changed to a ridiculous price way over the RRP, I contacted the seller and asked how this could be justified. The explanation I got was the original item had sold out and they didn't want to remove the listing as they were a business and would be charged again for creating a new listing when they received more stock. So they advertise it at such an inflated price because they know nobody will purchase it, to avoid further charges.

That makes sense, pretty ****ty for the customers.

[Moulin Yarns]

I could fill a few pages with tales of sat nav followers leaving parcels in derelict barns, behind hedges, under feeding troughs and beside just about every farm machine imaginable because they couldn't look any further than their master said was the destination

, 😂🙄👍

[Northernhibee]

Amazon is convenience shopping andI am currently finding it very useful.


When they pay so little tax and if there's a truth to the reported working conditions of some workers, when do we have the debate of the cost of convenience being so much greater than the benefit?

Not having a go at you on using Amazon - I do admittedly enjoy the Audible service as I spend a fair bit of time on the road - but don't use them for anything else. Just an interesting topic of debate.

[superfurryhibby]

Amazon and tax avoidance mean I buy nothing from them. Cheap has hidden costs. Wait until the impact of Covid really kicks in. When us plebs all start having income tax rises. I wonder if folk will still be as tolerant of the whole corporate tax avoiding scam then?

[Scouse Hibee]

Amazon and tax avoidance mean I buy nothing from them. Cheap has hidden costs. Wait until the impact of Covid really kicks in. When us plebs all start having income tax rises. I wonder if folk will still be as tolerant of the whole corporate tax avoiding scam then?

Don’t really get the tax avoidance gripe, surely the gripe should be with the system that allows it.

[Keith_M]

Don’t really get the tax avoidance gripe, surely the gripe should be with the system that allows it.


I manage to hate the people that don't close the loopholes and those that take full advantage of them.

There's also the issue that when one tax loophole is closed, they're willing to spend tens of millions in legal fees to have that challenged & overturned or new loopholes found.

We've also seen recent examples of when countries were trying to clamp down on these mega tax chats, they were threatened by the US Government with sanctions and trade restrictions.

[superfurryhibby]

Don’t really get the tax avoidance gripe, surely the gripe should be with the system that allows it.

Well on a personal level I have lived with governments I don’t support for the whole of my adult life. It’s a lot easier to change my personal spending habits, which I am more or less in full control of.

Given England’s preference for right of centre government, what else can one do?

However, I do live in hope that those with most to gain, and I mean 95% of the population, will arise like lions from their slumber and refuse to accept the huge increases in taxation when we all have to pay for covid.

Maybe then people will realise that Amazon and the other tax avoiders are taking the piss

[Hibrandenburg]

I manage to hate the people that don't close the loopholes and those that take full advantage of them.

There's also the issue that when one tax loophole is closed, they're willing to spend tens of millions in legal fees to have that challenged & overturned or new loopholes found.

We've also seen recent examples of when countries were trying to clamp down on these mega tax chats, they were threatened by the US Government with sanctions and trade restrictions.

I see it slightly differently. If there's a loophole there and you can take advantage of it then why not? I might not agree with the loophole but I'm damn sure I'm going to take advantage of it whilst I can. It's up to the government to ensure the loopholes aren't there. Tax avoidance is completely legitimate where as tax evasion can land you in prison. If it's not illegal then it's legal.

[Peevemor]

I see it slightly differently. If there's a loophole there and you can take advantage of it then why not? I might not agree with the loophole but I'm damn sure I'm going to take advantage of it whilst I can. It's up to the government to ensure the loopholes aren't there. Tax avoidance is completely legitimate where as tax evasion can land you in prison. If it's not illegal then it's legal.

I'm with you - and these loopholes can easily be fixed by the authorities - the question should be why they don't (eg. who ends up on what board of directors when they retire from politics?).

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm with you - and these loopholes can easily be fixed by the authorities - the question should be why they don't (eg. who ends up on what board of directors when they retire from politics?).

Quite simply, the poachers are better paid than the gamekeepers. Whilst there is such a pay imbalance between the private and public sector, the Government will always struggle.

[Kato]

I see it slightly differently. If there's a loophole there and you can take advantage of it then why not? I might not agree with the loophole but I'm damn sure I'm going to take advantage of it whilst I can. It's up to the government to ensure the loopholes aren't there. Tax avoidance is completely legitimate where as tax evasion can land you in prison. If it's not illegal then it's legal.Theres also an argument that the larger companies create those loop-holes by having MP's and political parties in their back pocket. Its tax evasion via lobbying and back-handers.

Whether it's legal or not there are such things as immoral laws. The get out that the law is somehow just there doesn't wash with me. Someone tailor makes those laws and they are aimed towards very specific echelons of the business world.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

Quite simply, the poachers are better paid than the gamekeepers. Whilst there is such a pay imbalance between the private and public sector, the Government will always struggle.

Yeah maybe true but there is also a danger that people only focus on one specific tax or ignore the wider benefits of a company doing business.


Amazon for example says it paid £293m in direct taxes last year. They also suggest they invested nearly £700m in their UK operations and were planning to create 10,000 jobs in the UK.


So headlines of Amazon only paying £14m in Corp Tax, normally then immediately compared to their unrelated turnover numbers, could be seen as misleading and in no way reflecting their actual contribution to the UK economy and tax revenues.

[Peevemor]

Yeah maybe true but there is also a danger that people only focus on one specific tax or ignore the wider benefits of a company doing business.


Amazon for example says it paid £293m in direct taxes last year. They also suggest they invested nearly £700m in their UK operations and were planning to create 10,000 jobs in the UK.


So headlines of Amazon only paying £14m in Corp Tax, normally then immediately compared to their unrelated turnover numbers, could be seen as misleading and in no way reflecting their actual contribution to the UK economy and tax revenues.

If they invest money & employ people it's to make more profit. No other reason.

[RyeSloan]

If they invest money & employ people it's to make more profit. No other reason.

Well yeah, why else would you expect any business to invest and employ people? Hardly unique to Amazon that.

The alternative would be for companies not to invest and not to employ more people. Not sure anyone wants that.

My point was that this thread and others has had a number of replies saying they don’t use a specific company because of its perceived lack of payment of taxes. I was merely pointing out that the picture is possibly more nuanced than just headline corp tax figures juxtaposed to turnover values.

So Amazon could be described totally differently depending on what headlines you want to read:

Company pays taxes of £293m while investing over £700m in the UK creating over 10,000 new jobs

V

Company only pays £14m of tax on £13bn of turnover


Same company, rather different slant on what they bring to the table.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yeah maybe true but there is also a danger that people only focus on one specific tax or ignore the wider benefits of a company doing business.


Amazon for example says it paid £293m in direct taxes last year. They also suggest they invested nearly £700m in their UK operations and were planning to create 10,000 jobs in the UK.


So headlines of Amazon only paying £14m in Corp Tax, normally then immediately compared to their unrelated turnover numbers, could be seen as misleading and in no way reflecting their actual contribution to the UK economy and tax revenues.

Yep. You also have to consider the spending power of its employees, which might not be the same had Amazon not been in the UK.

That's moving into the debate around tax-sweetheart deals, and the extent to which they are beneficial to an economy. There's a moral debate around them, of course, but there is also a compelling economic argument in their favour. The EU don't like them (Apple/Ireland), but one can see a situation where the UK might embrace them.

[Mibbes Aye]

There was some discussion about Amazon on a thread about something else but I can't find it so I thought I'd start another to discuss its merits or otherwise.

I haven't watched any of the documentary series about the company but I understand that there are folk who buy from them without shopping around first.

I always hunt for the best deals, but often Amazon are cheapest and I have no qualms about using them.

At 1.00pm yesterday, I bought a George Foreman grill. Removable plates, floating hinge the lot. It cost £45, but if anyone can rub my nose in it by finding a cheaper one, the serial number is 24330.

It was due for delivery tomorrow, but it arrived at 10.02am, only 21 hours after I clicked on "confirm". Because I have Prime, delivery was free.

That's a brilliant service.

PS I just checked, the price seems to have risen since yesterday. It's now £59.78. Strange, but I'm delighted. 😁

So, my question is, why are people calling for a boycott of Amazon?

Not related to Amazon as such but the Foreman grills are great but leach onto your hands, even after going through the dishwasher. I only handle them with kitchen roll.

As for the wider debate, I stay in a small town which has one of those shops that sells everything. I would prioritise them as much as possible but no denying that Amazon are good at price and delivery. When it comes to pricier goods, whether tech or clothing (especially for my label-obsessed son) they are usually unbeatable.

[Jack]

I think its great that Amazon invests so much in its employees even if by doing so it avoids paying taxes commensurate with turnover.

Jeff Bezos, the worlds richest person, and main beneficiary thinks its great too!

[Peevemor]

Well yeah, why else would you expect any business to invest and employ people? Hardly unique to Amazon that.

The alternative would be for companies not to invest and not to employ more people. Not sure anyone wants that.

My point was that this thread and others has had a number of replies saying they don’t use a specific company because of its perceived lack of payment of taxes. I was merely pointing out that the picture is possibly more nuanced than just headline corp tax figures juxtaposed to turnover values.

So Amazon could be described totally differently depending on what headlines you want to read:

Company pays taxes of £293m while investing over £700m in the UK creating over 10,000 new jobs

V

Company only pays £14m of tax on £13bn of turnover


Same company, rather different slant on what they bring to the table.

I know and I do understand very basic economics.

The point I was making is that Amazon aren't creating these jobs out of the goodness of their heart and there's no doubt an element of blackmail in their tax negotiations.

As is the case for many things, somewhere in the middle would probably be fairer.

[Keith_M]

I think its great that Amazon invests so much in its employees even if by doing so it avoids paying taxes commensurate with turnover.

Jeff Bezos, the worlds richest person, and main beneficiary thinks its great too!


All the while, the ordinary Employee has to pay a much higher level of tax on their income to compensate for the mega rich that manage to avoid doing so because of the many loopholes.

Said Employee might once have had the chance of a decent job, but now has to work in a relatively low paid, low skill role because of outsourcing, virtual monopolies, market fixing and governments that couldn't give a flying f... about ordinary people.


But never mind, as long as we can all sit at home, order online and have some Chinese/Indian manufactured device, made by under-paid workers, delivered to our door the next day.

[Hibbyradge]

All the while, the ordinary Employee has to pay a much higher level of tax on their income to compensate for the mega rich that manage to avoid doing so because of the many loopholes.

Said Employee might once have had the chance of a decent job, but now has to work in a relatively low paid, low skill role because of outsourcing, virtual monopolies, market fixing and governments that couldn't give a flying f... about ordinary people.


But never mind, as long as we can all sit at home, order online and have some Chinese/Indian manufactured device, made by under-paid workers, delivered to our door the next day.

Don't you use them?

[Hibrandenburg]

Theres also an argument that the larger companies create those loop-holes by having MP's and political parties in their back pocket. Its tax evasion via lobbying and back-handers.

Whether it's legal or not there are such things as immoral laws. The get out that the law is somehow just there doesn't wash with me. Someone tailor makes those laws and they are aimed towards very specific echelons of the business world.

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I agree, but until those loopholes are closed for the likes of Amazon and other big earner then everyone should take advantage of what is strictly legal. Why should the big boys hold a monopoly on tax avoidance?

[speedy_gonzales]

For those that do use Amazon:

Top tip, when shopping online try their amazon.de amazon.fr & amazon.es sites. Same products but often cheaper when paying euros. Handy if you have a currency card or something similar to a Santander Zero card.
Years ago, I bought the Nintendo Wii when it was popular from their Germany site for a considerable saving compared to the .co.uk site.
Also bought Bose noise cancelling headphones from their French site, saving about 30%.
Ironically, I think the stuff still got shipped from Dunfermline!

[JeMeSouviens]

For those that do use Amazon:

Top tip, when shopping online try their amazon.de amazon.fr & amazon.es sites. Same products but often cheaper when paying euros. Handy if you have a currency card or something similar to a Santander Zero card.
Years ago, I bought the Nintendo Wii when it was popular from their Germany site for a considerable saving compared to the .co.uk site.
Also bought Bose noise cancelling headphones from their French site, saving about 30%.
Ironically, I think the stuff still got shipped from Dunfermline!

Make the most of that while you still can. :rolleyes:

[EI255]

I use Amazon and eBay and, as you'll know, a lot of sellers use both. For less expensive items, ebay is almost always cheaper the cheaper option than Amazon. Though if you are a Prime member then it certainly blows ebay out of the water.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

I thought this article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/01/amazon-workers-fighting-for-their-rights) on Amazon was quite interesting, though it could have done with a bit more detail (probably edited down to size)

[Ozyhibby]

I think I am more in favour of a lower flat tax based on turnover with no deductions allowed. Every company paying the exact same based on their level of sales. No attributing costs to low tax countries etc. If it’s sold here, you pay tax here. Two benefits are that Amazon pay the same rate of tax as a corner shop but Amazon also can do away with the thousands of accountants and lawyers they employ trying to find loopholes because there won’t be any.
And we can find more productive work for those people.


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[CropleyWasGod]

I think I am more in favour of a lower flat tax based on turnover with no deductions allowed. Every company paying the exact same based on their level of sales. No attributing costs to low tax countries etc. If it’s sold here, you pay tax here. Two benefits are that Amazon pay the same rate of tax as a corner shop but Amazon also can do away with the thousands of accountants and lawyers they employ trying to find loopholes because there won’t be any.
And we can find more productive work for those people.


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That's not really fair on businesses that have high turnover, with small margins.

[Mon Dieu4]

For those that do use Amazon:

Top tip, when shopping online try their amazon.de amazon.fr & amazon.es sites. Same products but often cheaper when paying euros. Handy if you have a currency card or something similar to a Santander Zero card.
Years ago, I bought the Nintendo Wii when it was popular from their Germany site for a considerable saving compared to the .co.uk site.
Also bought Bose noise cancelling headphones from their French site, saving about 30%.
Ironically, I think the stuff still got shipped from Dunfermline!

Funny you should say that, I ordered something from the German Amazon on Sunday, it's something not even available in the UK and is arriving on Thursday, even got a discount as well

Mon ze Germans

[Killiehibbie]

That's not really fair on businesses that have high turnover, with small margins.

Tesco and Diageo made about the same profit last year with vastly different turnovers.

[Ozyhibby]

That's not really fair on businesses that have high turnover, with small margins.

It’s the consumer who pays anyway if it’s on sales.


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[danhibees1875]

It’s the consumer who pays anyway if it’s on sales.


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Like VAT?

[Andy74]

Don’t your local small businesses also have set ups that mean they are run in the most tax effective way for the business owners?

Are we expected to run the rule over how well they play the game of what they are all claiming for tax expenses etc?

[superfurryhibby]

Don’t your local small businesses also have set ups that mean they are run in the most tax effective way for the business owners?

Are we expected to run the rule over how well they play the game of what they are all claiming for tax expenses etc?

They are hardly comparable though, are they?

Like I say, wait until we are all asked to pay higher tax to foot the bill for the collapsed economy, lets see how people feel about state endorsed corporate tax avoidance.

[Billy Whizz]

Don’t your local small businesses also have set ups that mean they are run in the most tax effective way for the business owners?

Are we expected to run the rule over how well they play the game of what they are all claiming for tax expenses etc?

You think they would try, but rateable values on the High st/Shopping centres are significantly higher than warehouses, as being one, I found out doing some research
You also wonder what effect Amazon has had on the 2 groups who have run into major problems this week
Not all Amazon’s fault, as maybe they didn’t modernise quick enough, but when you’re in a downward spiral, it’s really hard to turn it around!

[Ozyhibby]

Just on the Amazon being a monopoly thing, when it comes to electrical appliances, I always use AO.com. No idea who owns them (might be Amazon[emoji23]) or what tax they pay but I always find them to be the cheapest and the service is great.
And for a local supplier of white goods, Edinburgh components on Bonnington road usually price match with online prices and their service is good. I have to buy about 5/6 washing machines a year and they provide a good service.


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[matty_f]

I see it slightly differently. If there's a loophole there and you can take advantage of it then why not? I might not agree with the loophole but I'm damn sure I'm going to take advantage of it whilst I can. It's up to the government to ensure the loopholes aren't there. Tax avoidance is completely legitimate where as tax evasion can land you in prison. If it's not illegal then it's legal.

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

[IWasThere2016]

Cos they will decimate high streets, will soon have a monopoly on not just e-commerce but retail as a whole, their owner is a c*** and the working conditions are appalling. Other than then nothing - great bunch of lads I guess.

The UK Government could easily address with a Sales Tax or tax on online sales - and say use it to pay rates for High St shops - however they choose not to.

Similarly, Employment Legislation could be bolstered to safeguard employees .. again not.

I'm not sure Amazon are operating outside the laws - tax or employment..

[IWasThere2016]

I think I am more in favour of a lower flat tax based on turnover with no deductions allowed. Every company paying the exact same based on their level of sales. No attributing costs to low tax countries etc. If it’s sold here, you pay tax here. Two benefits are that Amazon pay the same rate of tax as a corner shop but Amazon also can do away with the thousands of accountants and lawyers they employ trying to find loopholes because there won’t be any.
And we can find more productive work for those people.


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No.. It needs to be tiered

[IWasThere2016]

That's not really fair on businesses that have high turnover, with small margins.

Yup.. Must be a tiered system or percent of sale or flat tax per item..

[Peevemor]

The UK Government could easily address with a Sales Tax or tax on online sales - and say use it to pay rates for High St shops - however they choose not to.

Similarly, Employment Legislation could be bolstered to safeguard employees .. again not.

I'm not sure Amazon are operating outside the laws - tax or employment..A couple of years ago there was a French politician who suggested a tax of 1€ on every online purchase/transaction which would be used to reduce commercial rates in town centres. I thought it was a great idea but nothing came of it.

[IWasThere2016]

Just on the Amazon being a monopoly thing, when it comes to electrical appliances, I always use AO.com. No idea who owns them (might be Amazon[emoji23]) or what tax they pay but I always find them to be the cheapest and the service is great.
And for a local supplier of white goods, Edinburgh components on Bonnington road usually price match with online prices and their service is good. I have to buy about 5/6 washing machines a year and they provide a good service.


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AO owned by family in NW England

[IWasThere2016]

A couple of years ago there was a French politician who suggested a tax of 1€ on every online purchase/transaction which would be used to reduce commercial rates in town centres. I thought it was a great idea but nothing came of it.

Has to happen but fear it may be too late here..

[Hibrandenburg]

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

I agree, but why should they have the monopoly on using the rules to their advantage. If everybody was utilizing the loopholes then you can bet your house that the government would close them in an instant.

[IWasThere2016]

need something, pick up my phone, find it and buy it, usually with free next day delivery, all within 5 mins.

because I live in a city (I imagine Edinburgh will be the same?) I've even had things same day!

can't beat that without going out to a shop.

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Yup.. cba going into Bolton town centre never mind into Manc.. Traffic, parking, time, cost even safety..

I can't fault Amazon for convenience and value. Use it several times a month tbh.

[matty_f]

I agree, but why should they have the monopoly on using the rules to their advantage. If everybody was utilizing the loopholes then you can bet your house that the government would close them in an instant.

I agree. :agree:

[RyeSloan]

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

What’s paying your way though?

Focussing on one tax doesn’t tell you much.

Royal Mail for example in 2018 paid zero corp tax but in the same year generated over £1.8bn in tax receipts through other taxation (NI, Income Tax, business rates etc.)

Should we all boycott the Royal Mail based on their corp tax record (and not just their awful service [emoji2957])?

AstraZeneca is another company that rarely pays corp tax due to R&D credits. Those credits go towards paying for high end research and development and (allegedly) support thousands of high end jobs. Do we boycott the new vaccine because the company that developed it doesn’t pay a lot of Corp Tax? Or do we swipe away the credits, tax the company hard and see the jobs shift overseas?


I’m not really arguing one way or the other I suppose it’s just that it seems the discussion always falls back onto one tax amount that is maybe far from reflective of the overall economic benefit a company may provide across a number of measures.

[Just_Jimmy]

Yup.. cba going into Bolton town centre never mind into Manc.. Traffic, parking, time, cost even safety..

I can't fault Amazon for convenience and value. Use it several times a month tbh.I'm South Trafford so I rarely venture into Manc city past any work commitments but even Hale and Alty high streets are peaky now. I'm not disagreeing with the moral argument but those setting the rules don't play by them so why would companies?




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[Ozyhibby]

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

The board would not be behaving ethically if they did not do their best to get the maximum return on the shareholders investments.
We can’t have a system that relies on companies voluntarily paying extra tax.


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[matty_f]

The board would not be behaving ethically if they did not do their best to get the maximum return on the shareholders investments.
We can’t have a system that relies on companies voluntarily paying extra tax.


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That statement is what a massively capitalist society tells you is ethical.

Baws to the shareholders, they can still make money, just a bit less.

Tax the super wealthy massively and tax the super wealthy businesses massively.

There’s sod-all ethical about making rich people richer.

[Ozyhibby]

That statement is what a massively capitalist society tells you is ethical.

Baws to the shareholders, they can still make money, just a bit less.

Tax the super wealthy massively and tax the super wealthy businesses massively.

There’s sod-all ethical about making rich people richer.

The shareholders are often ordinary people’s pension funds. The board have a job to do which is to make money. They do that by providing goods and services that ordinary people want to buy at the right price. That’s a good thing.
If we want to tax an activity then we should tax it but expecting companies to give the exchequer money as a gift just won’t work.


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[matty_f]

The shareholders are often ordinary people’s pension funds. The board have a job to do which is to make money. They do that by providing goods and services that ordinary people want to buy at the right price. That’s a good thing.
If we want to tax an activity then we should tax it but expecting companies to give the exchequer money as a gift just won’t work.


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Amazon turn over £1.6bn every month. They can afford to give shareholders a good return and still pay more tax.

[H18 SFR]

If I sign up for an Amazon Prime membership does that get me free delivery and the movies etc on Prime Video or are they separate subscriptions?

[matty_f]

What’s paying your way though?

Focussing on one tax doesn’t tell you much.

Royal Mail for example in 2018 paid zero corp tax but in the same year generated over £1.8bn in tax receipts through other taxation (NI, Income Tax, business rates etc.)

Should we all boycott the Royal Mail based on their corp tax record (and not just their awful service [emoji2957])?

AstraZeneca is another company that rarely pays corp tax due to R&D credits. Those credits go towards paying for high end research and development and (allegedly) support thousands of high end jobs. Do we boycott the new vaccine because the company that developed it doesn’t pay a lot of Corp Tax? Or do we swipe away the credits, tax the company hard and see the jobs shift overseas?


I’m not really arguing one way or the other I suppose it’s just that it seems the discussion always falls back onto one tax amount that is maybe far from reflective of the overall economic benefit a company may provide across a number of measures.

The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

[marinello59]

If I sign up for an Amazon Prime membership does that get me free delivery and the movies etc on Prime Video or are they separate subscriptions?

It does give you movies etc.

[overdrive]

The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

Companies do pay NI?

[H18 SFR]

It does give you movies etc.

I am trying to sight up but it will only let me sign up as a student and I am not a student now??

[RyeSloan]

The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

But the point is that fundamentally it’s the companies activities that are paying the workers wages...that’s still companies generating monies to pay the tax. As it is companies already pay substantial direct pay roll taxes before the worker.

As for taxing the super rich...well most won’t disagree with that but it’s rather tangential from assessing companies wider economic benefits v focussing on their corp tax contributions!

[superfurryhibby]

But the point is that fundamentally it’s the companies activities that are paying the workers wages...that’s still companies generating monies to pay the tax. As it is companies already pay substantial direct pay roll taxes before the worker.

As for taxing the super rich...well most won’t disagree with that but it’s rather tangential from assessing companies wider economic benefits v focussing on their corp tax contributions!

Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

[Ozyhibby]

Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

We don’t want them to, otherwise we would have changed the rules to make them pay more tax.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

Would they fill that gap, though? I'm not sure there were many alternatives in the wings when Apple negotiated its tax deal in Ireland.

I can see a situation in Sunderland, when we have left the EU completely and Nissan have moved out, where a similar deal might be negotiated. In the grand scheme of things, perhaps no bad thing.

[matty_f]

Companies do pay NI?

It's deducted from your pay.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's deducted from your pay.

Employers also pay their own share of NI, on top of what they pay you. 13.8%.

[Ozyhibby]

It's deducted from your pay.

Pretty sure they pay employers national insurance as well.


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[matty_f]

Employers also pay their own share of NI, on top of what they pay you. 13.8%.

:aok:

[RyeSloan]

One good example today of taxes paid by companies not evidenced in their Corp tax numbers is the decision by Tesco to return their business rates relief...a cool £585m.

Will be interesting to see if the other supermarkets follow suit.

[CropleyWasGod]

One good example today of taxes paid by companies not evidenced in their Corp tax numbers is the decision by Tesco to return their business rates relief...a cool £585m.

Will be interesting to see if the other supermarkets follow suit.

A cynic might say that helps to reduce their CT Bill, but it's still a grand gesture.

[Hibbyradge]

Late last night, my wife mentioned that she'd been thinking about buying a book light for reading in bed.

Unbeknown to her, I looked on Amazon and ordered one for her. That was at 11.38pm.

It arrived half an hour ago!

Whatever gripes people have about Amazon or Besos, that's fantastic service.

[Lendo]

Late last night, my wife mentioned that she'd been thinking about buying a book light for reading in bed.

Unbeknown to her, I looked on Amazon and ordered one for her. That was at 11.38pm.

It arrived half an hour ago!

Whatever gripes people have about Amazon or Besos, that's fantastic service.

I was finding my Prime orders were taking about 48 hours recently instead of 24 hours. I assumed they had moved the goal posts and changed their delivery policy.

[Hibbyradge]

I was finding my Prime orders were taking about 48 hours recently instead of 24 hours. I assumed they had moved the goal posts and changed their delivery policy.

They're concentrating on getting my orders to me in 14 hours! :wink:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Late last night, my wife mentioned that she'd been thinking about buying a book light for reading in bed.

Unbeknown to her, I looked on Amazon and ordered one for her. That was at 11.38pm.

It arrived half an hour ago!

Whatever gripes people have about Amazon or Besos, that's fantastic service.

my main gripe is that Besos is currently making a conscious pivot to fascism.

[overdrive]

I was finding my Prime orders were taking about 48 hours recently instead of 24 hours. I assumed they had moved the goal posts and changed their delivery policy.

Think that was over the festive period.

I ordered something yesterday and it then showed that it would be delivered between midnight last night and 11am this morning.

I assume they don’t have people delivering a 2am. It came at 8.15

[Pretty Boy]

You have to remember a huge amount of Amazon orders will never be touched by an Amazon employee (it used to be just under 60% were from independent sellers, I'm not sure on the up to date figure).

I manage my works Amazon account and we sell 3 products direct from our own warehouse. We use DPD or if it's local our own vans. I process the orders, my warehouse picks them and said carrier delivers them. Amazon stipulate a dispatch by and deliver by date but beyond that have nothing at all to do with fulfilment.

We are essentially paying Amazon a platforming fee which isn't insignificant. Of course we have to factor that into cost so if people bought directly from us they would get the product a fair bit cheaper than they do on Amazon; indeed a few regulars have contacted us and now buy direct. I suppose that is the brand power of Amazon though. There is a belief they are always great value and there is a convenience of not having to deal with a small business. Two clicks and Amazon liaise the logistics for you.