Why are there no top refs from outwith the West of Scotland bubble?

[JimBHibees]

Just seems incredible and frankly bizarre that all top refs appear to come from (happy to be corrected) west central Scotland. Think it would have some impact to some degree subconsciously in decision making especially when there is a title head to head. Seems unbelievable that cities like Edinburgh Dundee Aberdeen etc are incapable of having refs of the requisite level. Given the same faces make the same huge errors year on year I refuse to believe there isn't some scope for other refs who may not be influenced in some way by the old firm environment. Does seem like some bizarre closed shop at play.

[superfurryhibby]

There’s been a bit of half hearted discussion around this in the press, but no one seems really interested in taking the SFA and the refs association to task. IIRC it’s been decades since an east coast ref officiated at a cup final.

[lord bunberry]

Just seems incredible and frankly bizarre that all top refs appear to come from (happy to be corrected) west central Scotland. Think it would have some impact to some degree subconsciously in decision making especially when there is a title head to head. Seems unbelievable that cities like Edinburgh Dundee Aberdeen etc are incapable of having refs of the requisite level. Given the same faces make the same huge errors year on year I refuse to believe there isn't some scope for other refs who may not be influenced in some way by the old firm environment. Does seem like some bizarre closed shop at play.
It’s a disgrace that nearly all the refs come from the same area. This has been discussed before and I’m sure it took over 100 years before a ref from Edinburgh was awarded the Scottish cup final. The whole system is rotten.

[JimBHibees]

It’s a disgrace that nearly all the refs come from the same area. This has been discussed before and I’m sure it took over 100 years before a ref from Edinburgh was awarded the Scottish cup final. The whole system is rotten.

Yep the system never actually seems to have been properly disclosed likely because it is not justifiable in the real world. You get the impression a compete closed shop to protect the refs of certain areas only. Shambles to be honest especially when you see refs making numerous poor decisions over and over again, Collum being an obvious example and other refs give the impression they really don't understand the game, Clancy being an obvious example.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

This study is from Norway but suggested undertaking in a country
Where social influence/impact is stronger. This would surely be compounded in countries where the refs live in the same area or have allegiances.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2020.00019/full

Probably doesn’t tell us what we already know. Mibbie we get the Maltese boys back again....

Crowd density* in more ways that one could explain slim pickings in Tynie...

* and proximity to pitch.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Behind. Pay wall could be an interesting read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/troubling-obsession-with-biased-scottish-referees-gz572dlq8

[AlbertK86]

Hugh Dallas cabal .... he brought them all through ... disgrace but not surprising!! No integrity and when you have no appetite to challenge this no wonder SFA get bad press


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[Joe6-2]

Suits the west coast agenda

[Hibby70]

Can we not get the Maltese refs back, they were a big improvement.

[Brightside]

Is there any refs from the east that aren’t getting a chance?

[Carheenlea]

Maybe moon-howler Paul Larkin was right all along with his Masonic conspiracy theories :hilarious
(Film focus primarily on the Lanarkshire Referring Association)

https://youtu.be/wL177_vEtRQ

[Since90+2]

In England referee's are made to declare what team they support and are not allowed to officiate any of that teams games.

The same should be implemented in Scotland with the understanding that if any evidence comes to light that they have not been truthful they are dismissed.

[JimBHibees]

Is there any refs from the east that aren’t getting a chance?

No idea but would be amazed if there had been none at all over the years from outwith Glasgow, and surrounding areas. The only one Edinburgh ref to have done the Scottish cup final in a hundred years is an interesting stat.

[hibby6270]

No idea but would be amazed if there had been none at all over the years from outwith Glasgow, and surrounding areas. The only one Edinburgh ref to have done the Scottish cup final in a hundred years is an interesting stat.

An ex work colleague of mine (from Edinburgh) was a Grade 1 ref for over 10 years. He retired from reffing about 3 years ago. He officiated many times at ER and also appeared as 4th official.

When he did ref at ER and gave a contentious decision against us (didn’t happen that often to be fair), I’d often question him on Monday morning what his reasoning was. When he explained using interpretation of the Laws, I could maybe see his point, but even then, in the spirit of the game being played, it made little sense to me or probably any ordinary supporter. His musings were always in the strictest confidence and as a friend and colleague I respected his requests not to make them public.

In his career he was generally quite successful. He made several 4th official appearances at various Champions League games abroad. A few Scottish semi finals as 4th official but don’t think he ever reffed a semi final. And to add fuel to the “Edinburgh” argument, he never officiated at a major Scottish final. Think the pinnacle of his Scottish career was a Scottish Junior Cup Final. When I asked him why that was, he’d just shrug his shoulders and gave a ‘c’est la vie’ sort of response. Almost a silent admission that he wasn’t part of the “in crowd”. That’s my personal opinion on that and not anything he directly divulged.

[Smartie]

George Smith had a great career as a ref and was held in high regard in all sorts of different environments.

The place to start might be to ask what he did that others didn’t?

I know his son fairly well - a big hibby himself. It would often be interesting to speak to him about his perspective of refereeing. The refereeing fraternity do look at things differently to fans. We get hung up on whether or not the right decision was made. They’ll often pay less attention to that and more to whether or not the ref was up with play and in the right position to make the call, right or wrong, and whether or not they follow correct procedures.

I also have a mate who had a shot at refereeing in Edinburgh, his first (and only) couple of games were games involving lads in their early teens. The aggression towards the ref from the players, parents and coaches was off the scale so he packed it in very quickly. Since then he’s coached for a living in Arizona for more than a decade - a far more pleasant footballing environment.

Maybe the West Coasters are better at dealing with the cascades of abuse that we choose to hurl at our referees, at all levels?

[Iain G]

Suits the west coast agenda

It's very odd that the entire focus of the Scottish football establishment is on a provincial part of the country 😊

[Viva_Palmeiras]

In England referee's are made to declare what team they support and are not allowed to officiate any of that teams games.

The same should be implemented in Scotland with the understanding that if any evidence comes to light that they have not been truthful they are dismissed.

I understand the intention but where does it end? So Ref X declares for Rangers - can you imagine if he’s allowed to ref Celtic games?
And who determines who is barred from rivals and which rival(s)?

[Heisenberg]

Crawford Allan was a top level ref for years and I’m sure he’s from Edinburgh. Now the head of referees for the SFA.

[jgl07]

In England referee's are made to declare what team they support and are not allowed to officiate any of that teams games.

The same should be implemented in Scotland with the understanding that if any evidence comes to light that they have not been truthful they are dismissed.
A very pointless exercise as the Glasgow referees would claim Partick Thistle or Queens Park.

Anthony Taylor from Wythenshawe in Manchester is on record as a supporter of non-league Altrincham when everyone knows he is a Manchester United fan.

He is certainly from a family of Manchester United fans. Not a bad referee all being considered.

[jodjam]

There’s been a bit of half hearted discussion around this in the press, but no one seems really interested in taking the SFA and the refs association to task. IIRC it’s been decades since an east coast ref officiated at a cup final.

I agree with the comments in this thread but Hibs supportting Dougie McDonald reffed our cup win in 2007

[inglisavhibs]

George Smith had a great career as a ref and was held in high regard in all sorts of different environments.

The place to start might be to ask what he did that others didn’t?

I know his son fairly well - a big hibby himself. It would often be interesting to speak to him about his perspective of refereeing. The refereeing fraternity do look at things differently to fans. We get hung up on whether or not the right decision was made. They’ll often pay less attention to that and more to whether or not the ref was up with play and in the right position to make the call, right or wrong, and whether or not they follow correct procedures.

I also have a mate who had a shot at refereeing in Edinburgh, his first (and only) couple of games were games involving lads in their early teens. The aggression towards the ref from the players, parents and coaches was off the scale so he packed it in very quickly. Since then he’s coached for a living in Arizona for more than a decade - a far more pleasant footballing environment.

Maybe the West Coasters are better at dealing with the cascades of abuse that we choose to hurl at our referees, at all levels?
George used to train the Edinburgh refs at Saughton Enclosure and there were quite a few grade 1’s at the time. Crombie, Brown, Allan, Downie, Waddell, McDonald, Forrest, Clark, Huett and Taylor are names that spring to mind. There may have been others and it’s strange that Edinburgh has no grade 1 refs at the moment.

[PatHead]

Did an Edinburgh referee take charge of the Dens Park game and not give Hearts a stonewall penalty?

[stantonhibby]

Did an Edinburgh referee take charge of the Dens Park game and not give Hearts a stonewall penalty?

Bill Crombie

[Kato]

Did an Edinburgh referee take charge of the Dens Park game and not give Hearts a stonewall penalty?I saw that recently on the YouTubes.

Stonewall is a bit of an overstatement.

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[hibby6270]

Crawford Allan was a top level ref for years and I’m sure he’s from Edinburgh. Now the head of referees for the SFA.

OK. You’ve named him. That’s who my post above was about. :greengrin

I’ve mentioned on here before I think, that every game he was in charge at ER - AND - that I attended, ended in a draw. He was a sort of luckyish charm because it was almost a guarantee we wouldn’t get beat when was the ref!! Exception being a 5-3 league cup win against Stranraer in Sept 2013, a game I missed due to holiday in Canada.

And let’s not forget, he played a small part in our cup winning run in 2016. (ICT home game). :wink:

[wookie70]

Are there top refs from within the west of Scotland bubble?

[PatHead]

I saw that recently on the YouTubes.

Stonewall is a bit of an overstatement.

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As Hearts didn't get the result they needed I am happy to call it a stonewaller.

Also any Jambos I know moan about it being a stonewaller